FFS101 - Titus Gebel

[00:00:00]

Intro

Titus: First and foremost, the idea is that in a free private CD, a private, service provider guarantees you protection of life, liberty, and property based on a contract. you have rights, like the right we left alone, and other obligations like to follow the rules that are in the contract and with your signature, you accept those rules, but on the other hand, that means that I cannot change the contract later. . So both sign the contract, you are protected. And there will be external arbitration or courts that will, in case of conflict of interest, make a decision.

So it's not my courts or arbitration that will make this decision. This is an additional level of protection. I think Bitcoin has made more for our libertarian cause than any other development in the last 20 years. I see this with our free private cities and the Liberty for Lifetime conference about half of the newcomers coming somewhere from the libertarian side, the other half from the bitcoiner side.

So It's still a very small portion of the people who have understood that, but Bitcoin and um, books like Bitcoin Standard, uh, have, have supported that. Right? So then more people understand those [00:01:00] Austrian findings. We knew this, our people knew this 100 years ago, right? But it's a, it's a tiny fraction, but now the young people starting to, to see that.

And I think we were still only at the beginning, which, which also gives me some hope.

This is the Freedom Footprint Show, a Bitcoin philosophy show with Knut Svanholm and me, Luke DeWolf. And we love to expand our freedom footprint. We hope you do too. The best way to do that is of course to emit as much freedom dioxide as possible. The best tool we have for doing that is of course Bitcoin.

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[00:03:00]

Introducing Titus Gebel

Luke: Titus Gebel, welcome to the Freedom Footprint Show. Thank you so much for joining us.

Titus: My pleasure.

Knut: Yeah, good to see you, Titus. Last time we saw each other was in Prague, I believe. I was a bit late. I missed my flight, but I managed to catch the last half day of the conference, at least. It's always a, a great event, the Free Cities, conference in Prague. but first, before we get into all that, can you give us a little introduction to yourself to those of you that don't know you? Uh, A-T-L-D-R on, uh, T two Gable.

Titus: Yeah, sure. Um, so, my name is Titus Gebel. I'm a German national, uh, born and raised there, but, uh, now resident in Monaco since about 10 years. and I, I have an education as a lawyer, a PhD in international law, um, and worked, uh, five years as a lawyer, but found out then this is not what I want to do until the rest of my days.

And, um, so I [00:04:00] was more interested in business and became a manager in the biotech industry. Uh, then switched sides to venture capital, um, who were financing those types of things and eventually founded my own company, interestingly, in an unrelated area in resources. I was mining, um, especially gold, silver, tin, lead, zinc, all these things.

And, uh, we started, uh, a company called Deutsche Rochstoffer GmbH and the partner. back in 2006, um, where nobody was interested in that, uh, subject, uh, but we, we could see it coming that, uh, the big demand from China, and at the same time, the decay of the traditional mining projects and industries, and nobody wanted to study geology or, uh, mining engineering any longer.

Um, and at the same time, you had that high demand from China, right? And just to put it in perspective, in the early 2000s, [00:05:00] before the big China boom began, China was accounting for a consumption of 10 percent of all world metals, and today it's 25%. So this thought was obviously correct and the only solution how you could solve that is prices going up and that happened, right?

And so we were successful with Deutsche Rohstoff and And when public in 2010, uh, we added later oil and gas, uh, and it was all practically always the same story. There were old mining engineers from the established industry coming to us saying, yeah, they have closed down this and that, but there was no need to close it down, so why don't you reopen it and I can help you.

And so that brought, uh, the, the necessary knowledge. Uh, of experienced senior people into our company. And, um, again, that was a big success and I could retire at the end of 2014, being CEO for eight years of Deutsche Rohstoff. And again, we [00:06:00] went public in 2010. And, out of frustration with politics, I've been, uh, I would say libertarian or, as we said at that time, liberal, classical liberal.

for many years and, and I, I just saw that there is no chance that we ever get the majority for the ideas of free market self responsibility and, and those things. That is at least my, my finding. And so I thought, okay, what can we do about it? And I came up with a new product. Which is called a free private city.

We can discuss this later. And then at the same time I said, okay, I don't want just to develop an idea because I have a lot of experience in setting up businesses. I've been in the venture capital industry for about 20 years. and I still am involved in the resources industry a bit, but my My idea was, okay, let's create a company that is making free private cities a reality.

And, uh, I was [00:07:00] also asked at that time by the people who set up what is today Prospera, the first CD, to help them with structuring because they were not totally satisfied with the idea the Honduran government had. And I, and they liked my idea about private governance. And so we developed a kind of a hybrid model, and let it approved by the Honduran government.

So I was, uh, working there not only as an investor, but also as a chief legal officer from 2017 to 2019. And, uh, eventually we got it approved, right? It was, it was a hard thing because you, you, there was a law called the city law, but there were many, many. Things unclear. So we had to negotiate all this with the, with the government and that was, uh, was eventually successful.

And then after that, uh, was finished, I, I tried to start, uh, I, I did my own company in order to make own projects. And this company is called Tipolis. It's based in Singapore. [00:08:00] And we are currently negotiating with, uh, about 10 governments and government, government near, uh, People are about the establishment of, uh, of such, uh, autonomous regions where we can, integrate more Austin economics, more market, uh, principles and more freedom.

without the need to overthrow or to, to flip a whole country. That's, that's in a nutshell my story.

Knut: Uh, well, that's a, that's an L-T-L-D-R, but it's a good one. uh, you can't really, you can't really skip any of those parts. It's a fantastic. CV.

Titus' Philosophy and Free Private Cities

Knut: okay. I'd like to pin down a couple of things because you said one of the best, uh, things I've heard. Uh, like, like a phrase that, uh, really stuck with me, uh, not this conference, but the year before in your opening speech to the whole thing.

And that was like, uh, the only human right is the [00:09:00] right to be left alone, because it's the only human right that, uh, imply, implicit in that was that this is the only human right that can be valid for all people at all times, uh, past, present, and future. And I, I really love that. So I'd like to pinpoint you, uh, on where you are on a libertarian, like, anarcho capitalistic scale.

Are you in the Are you more a Misesian or a Rothbardian? Like, do you think any state is needed? Or should we, would we be better off if we rid ourselves of the entire thing?

Titus: Yeah, I'm somewhere, I'm somewhere out of that box because I think, what I'm propagating It's a kind of a state, it's a classical liberal minimal state, but it's run by a private company, so it's somewhat, uh, which does not fit into any of those descriptions. It's not really a state, right? It's, but it's, the services of a state are provided.[00:10:00]

And my, my personal view is that as long as people like to live in a state and have the right to leave, Why not? Right? And it's, the market has proven that states are in demand and that states are obviously successful, otherwise they wouldn't have been in existence for such a long time. So I'm kind of agnostic.

I would say, do not believe that there's one system that fits all. Like, because as a free market person, I like to go to the supermarket and let's just take one area of chocolate, right? I mean, a wise, vogue governor could say two kinds of chocolate are enough for you guys, right? And I said, no, I prefer that there are 10 or 20 different types of chocolate so that I can choose.

Right? And this is the same for everything. So I don't need neither a libertarian scholar nor a woke politician to tell me what's [00:11:00] best for me. So I want to choose for myself. And if my choice is, I want to live in a private city, and that has to be, I expect this to be respected. But if my choice is I want to live in a, in a, uh, legacy nation state, I can, I, I am respecting this as well, right?

So, and, and I think that, and I made a point in my book, um, I haven't mentioned it. I wrote a book when I arrived in Monaco, uh, for three years called Free Private Cities, Making Governments Compete for You. That's my idea, right? To create a new product and a market of living together. You don't need a majority for that.

Once it's established, then people can vote with their feet. And maybe, and I made a point in my book, some people might really prefer this more anarcho capitalist system without any state. For a period in their life, but then at another period, they might be more willing to go to, if they're young, to communitarian, [00:12:00] more leftist oriented society, and at the end, they might prefer living with their peers in a more conservative nation state.

And this can all be, I don't know, and I don't want to tell people what's good for them. The only thing I'm offering is, a model of living together where, which is based on libertarian principles, or let's say, let's, at least, uh, the principle that people need protection of life, liberty, and property. But in exchange, they have to pay something for that.

So it's a pure service. So it's not the state thinking any longer, there's big brother and he's taking care of you. It's a pure service provider and you pay him for that. So it's basically strapping the state from all its fanfare and all its glory. And it's not even a state any longer. It's a service provider who's doing those things.

But on the other hand, I don't think that Having no monopoly of [00:13:00] force in such a state, in such a city would work, because, if you, if you really say, okay, let's find, let market find out who is our best protectors, protection service, then very probably The one with the strongest security agency, they can do whatever they want, right?

Because nobody else can beat them. So, I don't think that that is attractive. Of course it can be then settled over years and years, but until then, families and And normal people would not come. So that is just something which I think is not working, as well as you do not have different security organizations on a cruise ship or on a holiday resort, right?

You have only one. And the choice that you have is between this cruise ship and another one. And that is about the same with me. I say, okay, if you don't like my model, go somewhere else. Because I think if I skip that, [00:14:00] um, security provision, which is my main product, I promise you security for life, liberty, and property.

If I cannot fulfill that, it's probably not going to work. But I'm also agnostic on that. If you prove me wrong, in reality, I will adapt my model, but I don't think that is going to happen. And so let's, let's find out the best thing. The same is true with open borders in a way that everybody can come without any control.

It's not going to work, right? If you think this is because Brian Kaplan wrote that, he's a great guy, but that is not going to work. And for the fact alone that you cannot guarantee security if you do not control your borders, right? And the moment you have reached a certain level of wealth, And just criminals will come in and go out again.

We have seen this over and over in time, and you are subject to invasion and all that. So, that is, um, here my point, and I think [00:15:00] that's how the world should work. So, if you have a certain idea, which is probably not or has the same views as mine, then you should be absolutely free to introduce your product in the market of living together.

And then let the market find out. My prediction is that over time, it, it will, it will just be decided by some products surviving and others disappearing, which are the models that work. And, uh, Joe Quirk, who is the president of the Seasteading Institute, has, has, uh, has coined the phrase, he said, 50 years from now, the most successful societies will not cater to any of today's ideologies. And that might be true, right? Because this is a decision, a competition is a discovery process. And we will see, hey, maybe this idea of Titus is [00:16:00] quite good, but not in all areas. And that it has developed into another variation and or has split. We will probably then see that there's not a single model. I said this before, but we have different models for different tastes.

Right, because some people, they might only want to live in an anarcho capitalist environment, and I'm happy to give them, let's say, the area, right, the NCAP zone within my free cities, that can happen, I have no problem with that. Um, but other people say, no, I need more rules, right, I need guidance, religious guidance or whatever, you name it, and we have to respect that.

People are different. Most people are not libertarian. You have also to admit that, right? That doesn't mean that probably most people could be very happy in a libertarian environment, but if they had created it, it would not be libertarian. The other thing that is, stands out of these three private cities [00:17:00] model is that if you create this as a service, then there will be a service contract with each of the residents. And this is a very interesting fact because it means there is no forum, not a parliament, not a government, not a majority referendum that can interfere in that bilateral agreement. that is giving us the protection that we are constantly losing in the legacy systems of today. No matter how good your constitution is, no matter how good your checks and balances are, over time this is deteriorating. And the reason for that is because our current systems are giving wrong incentives.

They're giving the incentives To the politicians to promise all kinds of goodies so that they're reelected because it's not their money, right? And they can in depth their state, they can print money. People think, no, they're not printing money. Well, here's the thing. If you as a state are giving state bonds [00:18:00] and you say, tell your own central bank to buy all these bonds, this is like printing money.

That's, that's how they do it today, but it's the same effect. And, and the other thing is, that the electorate, the people who, the electorate who are going to vote, they also think, okay, I can vote money in my pocket. So I vote for the guy who's promising me most. And this is a bad incentive, but I cannot stop that.

I can tell people, try to convince them that this is not a good thing, but at the end of the day, I have no chance. As a libertarian candidate in a public election, I can go to the people and say, You know that Knut, I made that point before. Vote for me. I can, I do nothing for you. Right? It's not, not, not very attractive.

And, uh, um, on the other hand, it's, uh, I tell people here, you get a 100 euro for, for eight hours hard work, or here you get 100 euro for just making your [00:19:00] cross, uh, on the, on the ballot at the right place. Who will win? Right? It's, it's,

Knut: well, I

would vote for you, Titus.

Titus: Yeah, but maybe 5 percent of the people, right? That's at least my experience.

Now people say, yeah, but look at Argentina. Um, I think that's true. But on the other hand, they have only elected him president. He has not a majority in the parliament. And after 100 years of mismanagement, and I think 60 percent of the people are now kind of poor. So if you have to wait 100 years until change is happening, I don't want to do that,

Knut: Well, he has managed to turn things around somewhat in a very short time, uh,

by, yeah.

Titus: support that. But my concern is that, that he will not be, he has not enough power to really make the legislative things happen. Maybe he's getting them in the next election, and [00:20:00] then he's probably, He will be elected out of power the moment people are a bit better off. So this is just my concern and my experience.

If I look at Germany after World War II, Ludwig Erhard made these fantastic reforms. We had even people in Sweden in the 1990s making reforms, New Zealand, that all took 10, 20 years and then the good, the good guys were in power again.

Knut: Erhard is a forgotten hero of European history. Like, he's basically the reason that Germany is the biggest economy in Europe. Like, that's, uh, that's all his, he's doing, really, right?

Titus: Yeah, absolutely. And he was influenced by Ludwig von Mises, right? And he, and Ludwig von Mises wrote him, uh, it's great what you're doing, but I have some concerns with this term of, um, uh, social market economy, because if that means that the moment something happens that. The government does not like, as a market result, [00:21:00] they have the right to interfere, then they will interfere in everything after a while, right, and in a way that happened, but Ludwig Erhard is a hero.

I fully signed that, subscribe to that. He has really against even the military leadership, which was established. Back then in 1948, of the winning powers of World War II, he has just, um, cut all price controls overnight without their permission, right? And basically the whole country was, uh, saying that this is foolish and he's an idiot and all that.

So against all odds he did this and it was extremely successful.

Knut: Unsung hero. Look him up, people, and brush your teeth.

Bitcoin and Free Private Cities

Knut: Um, yeah, you said something about, you know, uh, the money printing by government selling government bonds to central banks, which is, I think, is such a vile scheme, because what is a government bond? It's [00:22:00] basically a promise from the government to steal even more from your kids than they stole from you. And with money that is worthless, so, so

good

Titus: this is, this is also Knut, this is also the reason why they have so much credit, right? Because they can extract the whole population by nearly everything. So they have a, have a call option on the complete wealth of their citizens, which is ridiculous in a way, but this is the reason why states have credit even if they're extremely high in depth.

Knut: and I, I think like Bitcoin to me is, I mean, people call it speculation or whatever, but to me it's, it's, it's a clear signal, like it's, it's showing us how much we've been, uh, taken advantage of. Because when you have this constant inflation here and you're hindering the free market process from happening, you're hindering all of these exponential growths that could have been happening all over the world. And your purchasing power is diminish, [00:23:00] diminishing as a result of it. Bitcoin is like a, a reflection of this is the world you could have been living in and it's already here. It's been here for quite some time

now.

Titus: And this is, This is fantastic, right? I mean, I think Bitcoin has made more for our libertarian cause than any other development in the last 20 years. It is just because so many, I see this with our free private cities and the Liberty for Lifetime conference that you mentioned, Um, about half of the newcomers coming somewhere from the libertarian side, the other half from the bitcoiner side.

So they have really, they have what you said correctly, they have understood that a sound monetary system is, is so much worth. It's not just, okay, money and inflation. It's all the incentives in which areas of the industry you invest in, in which not, and this makes you all, gives you better, higher quality of living.[00:24:00]

So it's still a very small portion of the people who have understood that, but Bitcoin and um, books like Bitcoin Standard, uh, have, have supported that. Right? So then more people understand those Austrian findings. We knew this, our people knew this 100 years ago, right? But it's a, it's a tiny fraction, but now the young people starting to, to see that.

And I think we were still only at the beginning, which, which also gives me some hope. And, and, um, Um, uh, I think, uh, Bitcoin, uh, well, some people think that Bitcoin will save the world. I think Bitcoin is a great thing, but it cannot solve all problems of the world. So we have to, to also come up with, uh, products, uh, of living together, which are new, which certainly will then make use of Bitcoin and maybe even blockchain technologies in some areas.

LAMP transactions, where it might make sense, you will find that out. But

Knut: we have a [00:25:00] difference of opinion. I think

Titus: I'm not sure, Knut, I don't, I'm not sure if it works, if it's necessary, right? Most, most things that I have seen now, where people said that's blockchain, I said, no, it's redundancy that is not needed. But I'm, I'm not an expert enough to make a final call, like, You can use the blockchain only for Bitcoin or not.

I wouldn't dare to make that call. I don't know enough about that, but I would leave it to the market. Maybe you know a much better expert on that.

Knut: I would not from a technical perspective, I wouldn't like to defend it from a technical perspective, but more from a philosophical one, because all it is all solving the, the Byzantine generals problem was, was Discovering resistance to replicability, like a number that cannot be copied. By definition, a copy of a technology that makes copying impossible is, [00:26:00] uh, uh, this misguided at best, and probably just a scam trying to leech off the value of the success of the initial, uh, discovery. So to me, it's more of a dis the discovery of absolute digital scarcity is really. The discovery of resistance to replicability. And for that you mean you need more than just cryptography? You need, you need people to, uh, align on which one of these systems this is. And this is where the network effect comes in. And there's a first mover advantage that can't be ignored. So, so it's sort of like you can only discover America once you can you can sail to the other side and call it something else. If people already decided what it's called, that's the name it's going to have. And it's the same thing for, for Bitcoin in my mind.

Titus: But for the blockchain as such, it's always a trade off, right? When you say, I want every transaction to be in the blockchain, no matter how small it is. Then. You are creating maybe [00:27:00] unnecessary burdens for just the fungibility of assets. And insofar as we found out where we use that, and I can imagine that larger transactions like land transactions, houses, that may make sense because you want to Show in the future that 300 years ago, right?

It's clearly, this is the property line, right? But not if I'm buying, uh, soft drinks, uh, in a supermarket,

Knut: But there are scaling solutions. Like there are, there is the Lightning Network. It has its problems, but it's still way better than fractional reserve

banking. That's the way I see

Titus: you with that. And I can imagine that the lightning system or a lightning node for each free private city would be a solution because it still has to do with trust and counterparty, right? Okay. But it's a better compromise as what we have today. So I'm fully on your side in this

Knut: superior. Yeah. And that's like, if there's one thing about the Free Cities conference that I [00:28:00] dislike, or like, I don't like as much, is when some of these projects have their own decentralised autonomous organisation, or there's a shitcoin attached to it, Because to me, that's an instant red flag, like this might be, because I feel so sorry for the people who are, who might be falling for a scam.

I'm not saying that all it is a scam or that that's even the intent intention, but there's a, there's a risk there. And like, it's, it's sort of like, You, you may, I, I am a consensual at heart. I, I don't want to interfere with what other peoples do at, at all. But I also like to call Call a spade a spade, and if I see a scam, I point it out

Titus: regard. And you know, this is why we're having those conferences, so that we can argue about those things. And I have, I'm also always feeling a bit uncomfortable with somebody saying, yeah, we will have our own token. But the reality is there's no need for that, right?

Knut: re reinventing the fiat [00:29:00] wheel

Titus: Yeah, I'm using the existing fiat currency in that region, or you use Bitcoin, uh, or with a lightning system.

Because if you come up with a new token, why should people take your token other than you force them to do it, right? And we say, Hey, in our free private cities, there should be a free banking system. I mean, you choose whatever you want and it includes a fractional reserve banking. If you, well, here's what's happening, right?

If you go to a fractional reserve bank, you get a higher interest rate, but it comes a higher risk with that, that you lose all your money. So, why shouldn't people be allowed to choose that? I never understood why libertarians say we are voluntarists and we are free markets, but we want to forbid fractional reserve banking.

Hey, this is just another financial product. It might be a shitty one, as some tokens are, but let people make their own experience, right? And, and that is something which will probably happen over time, that some kind of [00:30:00] fractional reserve will come because then you can leverage more and then you can promise people higher interest rate and people will fall for that.

And I mean, that's every, that's the world, right? If you want higher interest, higher dividends, you have to take higher risks. That's how the world works. And the thing is that if, if, if you then fail, we should not bail you out. And the state is not coming to your support, and the free city is not coming to bail you out.

This is your experience, and that is what you made, and this will make you a better, more intelligent person, a more prudent person in the future. And if everybody had acted like that since the first Uh, bank runs were happening in the 1870s, there would have been no global financial crisis in 2008 because until then, everybody would know about fractional reserve and full reserve banking, and only some people would [00:31:00] then really trust their big money to fractional reserve banks.

So, that is my, uh, I have a view that people must make their own experience and Knut, I think the same will happen with the shitcoins and NFTs and all kinds of tokens. And I must say to the defense of those people on our conferences, most of them, if not all, think they're doing a good thing, right? They're attaching all kinds of products to this token and whatever.

And I'm also, I do not want to tell them all shit. Hey, let them find out. And maybe we are wrong. And there are some tokens that have some specific advantages, right? So I think let the people find out. It's good that you are watching. Raising your voice at the conference saying, I warn you guys, and I'm doing the same in conversation, say, look, if you're introducing a new token that wasn't seen before, nobody's going to use it unless you [00:32:00] force people or whatever, make, give them benefits for that.

And that should be a warning light in itself, should be a red flag.

Knut: to me it's, it's like, uh, yeah, I, I believe you that most people aren't scammers. They, they are, have good intentions. Uh, it's just that, like, I, I'm against hate crime laws as well. It doesn't matter to the victim if it was what the intent of the criminal was. You know, like, if, if you're clumsy and kill someone, or if you deliberately kill someone, the outcome is just the same to the victim. And it's sort of the same here.

Libertarian Century

Knut: By the way, the, the, the whole thing, I'm totally with you that I want people to be able to have the choice. That's why I prefer Mele to, uh, uh, boule in this case. I don't like, uh, uh, legal tender laws. Uh, I, I think that he is wrong there because I think people should be able to choose for themselves and take responsibility for their own mistakes.

[00:33:00] That's, that needs to be the basis of everything. And, uh, and, uh, so I'm a bit of a, I have to admit, I, I mean, I, uh, I don't like politicians in general or I don't like politics and, uh, I'm usually not impressed by them, but I'm a bit of a melee fanboy because he's, uh, you know, quoting, quoting Rothbard and has a superhero costume and campaigns with a chainsaw.

So I, I just love him and his haircut as well.

Titus: maybe he has really initiated something which we later will know as the libertarian century. Right? Because at the moment, would think that, but two years ago, or five years ago, nobody would think that a libertarian president was ever elected in a Western country, right? And so far, and he was holding this speech in, in Davos, right?

Where he would kick ass and, um, and that was one of the most seen speeches in Davos ever. And I heard that [00:34:00] people really applauded him heavily in the audience, so I think, on the surface, it seems that states are getting bigger and bigger and more powerful and powerful, and these unaccountable international organizations like the WHO, they're grabbing more and more power, which is really dangerous.

But that is only the surface. I think below the surface, what you can see is they are not even capable of handling a pandemic and things like that, other than with brute totalitarian force or authoritarian force. And they're not capable of handling these critiques. They're not capable of handling, of making a balancing decision.

So that shows me also a kind of, uh, they have reached a peak in a certain way. And in most areas, you can see that they're not even capable of doing their own things right. For example, if you think that [00:35:00] the European Union is coming up with the New law and a new scheme or new mechanism for anything because they have thousands of people working for them.

No, they're not. They're hiring PricewaterhouseCoopers, McKinsey and other private consultancy firms to tell them what to do. Or how to implement their ideas. So in the, in the, in the, in the form of politics, the original form of state power, not even there, they can do things without the private sector or take war, right?

You say, okay, war is definitely something where this is state business. But even in Russia, right, a private mercenary company had to come to the rescue of the Russian army to, to conquer Bahmut, right? I mean, and same in the U. S. And then, [00:36:00] years ago. Uh, everybody was telling you, uh, going to the moon in space, only states can do that.

And what we see now, 90 percent of market share for commercial flight into the orbit is by private companies, SpaceX. So you can see that in the areas where, when we were young, or our parents said, these are the eminent state domains, right, war, politics. Space travel. All of them can be done and must be done by private companies.

So that shows you a weakness of the states. And that is a good sign because it shows you that privately organized way of living together is working better. Um, it's just, uh, without all these, I mean, there's certainly fierce competition and there will be also some kinds of, of irregularities, but in principle, everybody knows, okay, if somebody is providing a good service, people will come voluntarily and pay voluntarily.[00:37:00]

If they're not providing good service, they go to another provider. And that is my idea that we have everything at once. We have legacy states, we have these dubious. conglomerates like European Union. We have, uh, uh, independent cities or semi independent cities and everything in between. And then people can choose where they want to go.

And that alone will force the legacy states to become more service provider because otherwise their best people will just go away. So this is at least my hope that this is happening in this century and which will automatically lead, automatically lead to a more libertarian century because you have the freedom to reject, to be left alone, yeah, then they cannot force you to do things.

And if they do, okay, you force me, then I refuse to work or only so little that I can make a living. And that will mean eventually all the good [00:38:00] people will go away. And I see this today, people are flooding into Dubai, right. There's a reason for that, because they leave you alone, they leave you more alone than the rest of the world, even if it's a monarchy.

and so we will, we will continue to see this, and this will put pressure on the legacy state. They They are not really confessing that now, but every special economic zone in the world is already a confession of a state and obviously their rules are not the best for everyone, because otherwise there wouldn't be a reason to create a special economic zone.

Right? So, and we are capitalizing a bit on that development, which is already there. And then you have people like Millet who are really coming in front of the Davos Trout and say the state is not a solution, the state is a problem. Right? So, um, That's great, because now many, many people have, for the very first time in their life, have heard the term libertarianism or anarcho capitalism.

And they look it up, right? And [00:39:00] when I was young, I didn't find out about Ludwig von Mises for a long time, because the gatekeepers did not tell you that he was existing. He was a non person in Germany, didn't exist, right? So this is different today. People can get information more quickly, and we can We can, uh, uh, associate more easily through the internet and, um, and so far I do have hope that we are at the beginning of a libertarian century.

Bitcoin and Resiliency

Knut: Absolutely. And, uh, yeah, I, I just like to inject another dose of hopium into that if I may, because I, I think it's so, so easy, like the, the way to really live in a way that ensures that you are free, it is to make attacking you costly. That's why, like states with a good standing army, where where Luke lives now, like Finland, uh, They stood their [00:40:00] ground against Russia in many, many wars because they had good snipers and people who could take the cold and defend their borders, but it's the same for, um, this is not only like geographical stuff, uh, with Bitcoin, you have the perfect costliness to attack for an attacker because the attacker can say, give me all your bitcoins. And you can give a part of it up, a minuscule part of it, and say that's all I have. But there's no way for the attacker to know how much you really have. And that's true for every man, woman, and child on earth today. And everything in between, to be politically correct there. Uh, like, there's, there's, there's no way For an attacker to ever know how many bitcoins the other person has, which means that it is more profitable to give something up in order to get something back from that person than it is to do a physical attack. So the shelling point of violence has been moved. And also, [00:41:00] every jurisdiction that adopts this, Well, every single act of goodness in that, like, from Bitcoiner to Bitcoiner benefits the entire network. Because that, ultimately that leads to purchasing power go up. so that's, uh, that's all there is to it. I, I had another thought here, but it escaped me at the moment. Um,

Titus: Maybe it will come back, but I think you're completely right with the Bitcoin. It makes really hard to expropriate people and, uh, it's gold can be found, right? And I was thinking they, They probably come up with a, uh, banning Bitcoin in, in, in the West, but in large areas, and I mean, this still can happen, but it's now more, more countries are, uh, making Bitcoin regulation.

That means they're making it really legal. We have these Bitcoin ETFs, uh, at Wall Street. You have countries like El Salvador, and I [00:42:00] think there's a second country now that have adopted Bitcoin as a legal tender, or at least as a method of payment. And it's getting more and more difficult to make a general ban on Bitcoin, but you can, you can still try it and say you're not allowed to pay in Bitcoin and nobody's allowed to pay you fiat against Bitcoin.

It will not disappear then, but it will have, will be weakened. Um, but I think I, I'm also positive. I think you are right that that is a fantastic improvement for the individual that can hide their wealth, take their wealth with them easily. Even if they're expelled from the country, and, uh, it is, uh, has reached a certain size so that we think, I have some trust that Bitcoin will not go away, go away ever.

So it's there now, people have seen how it works, so it can work. It's a little bit, the reason why I wrote my book is just that the idea is [00:43:00] there. The idea will not go away again. And I tell people from, especially from libertarian, Austrian economic side, say, Hey, if you like free markets so much, then just transfer this idea to our market of living together and let people offer different products of, of living together.

And everybody is choosing which he likes best. Right? That is my supermarket of living together idea. That's all. And this is a simple thought, right? And this is in the heads now and that this can be done privately. But if this is really what you want, protection of life, liberty, and property, you don't need a king, you don't need a president.

A private company can do that. Right? Another simple thought. And Bitcoin is proven, the white paper was basically bringing thought into the world, and now it has been done for quite a while, and that is showing people it works, and I don't know what [00:44:00] is your feeling, but my opinion. My impression is that people who once have discovered the Austrian school of economics, have discovered how Bitcoin works, they are not getting back

Knut: no, there's no un orange pilling. A person.

[00:45:00]

The Free Cities

Knut: Okay, let's get to the meat of the Free Cities, like, um Tell us more about the actual free cities. Like, uh, what, what are the biggest projects? What's the latest update from them? What can people do? Should they move to a free, private city and why? And so on. Give us the pitch.

Titus: Yeah. Okay. First and foremost, um, the, the idea is that in a free private CD, uh, a private, uh, service provider guarantees you protection of life, liberty, and property based on a contract. And in this contract, it said that it costs you. 1, 500 or 2, 000 per year, and you have rights, like the right we left alone, and other obligations like to, to follow the rules that are in the contract or in the annex or that we use [00:46:00] as a default system, a common law system or whatever.

So, and with your signature, you accept those rules, but on the other hand, that means that I cannot change the contract later. Neither I as an operator, nor the resident can, nor a majority can. So if you both sign the contract, you are protected. And there will be external arbitration or courts that will, in case of conflict of interest, make a decision.

So it's not my courts or arbitration that will make this decision. This is an additional level of protection. So this is just, in a nutshell, what it's all about. So how do we do this? Because If all state laws apply, which are constantly changed, that isn't worth much. So we have to create an autonomy that allows us to create our own legal system.

And so far, this has been achieved only in a handful of places. You have historical places like Hong Kong and Macau, which basically were the origin of the term special administrative [00:47:00] region, a one country, two systems. for historical reasons. After they came back to China in the in the 1997 and 1999, there was a decision they can keep their system for another 50 years. So this was the first. And you have areas where they found out by competition that it may be a good idea to have own independent Courts based on an own legislative system on jurisdiction. And it was first happening in Dubai, Mr. Dubai International Financial Center, because they found out that financial companies were not coming to Dubai because of Sharia law.

And then the Sheikh said, what is a typical good law for these financial places? Well, they said like New York, Singapore, Hong Kong, it's common law, London. Yeah. And I said, okay, let's import a common law system. And, but also, uh, A court, a court with lawyers from those places, um, not lawyers, [00:48:00] judges from those places.

And to, to gain confidence with investor, um, with the investment, uh, and that worked, right? It took a while, but now the DEIFC is so small, it's only one square kilometer, accounts for nearly 10 percent of Dubai's GDP. They have, I think, you know, 6, 000 companies registered there. That's a fantastic success.

It has been copied by Abu Dhabi Global Market. Well, Astana, I think Binance is there in the Astana International Financial Center. Um, other, other countries are trying to do it. And then a third race was this idea in Honduras. That was partly based on the idea of Honduran governments wanted to copy Hong Kong because their country was in disarray and in the hands of drug lords.

And they wanted to create independent enclaves of rule of law. And then Paul Romer came with his TED talk, Charter Cities, and these ideas amalgamated in this first law in [00:49:00] Honduras that they create autonomous zones. in the country that can even grow and have completely their own right there. Cities are subject to serenity of Honduras when it comes to foreign policy, defense, they have to follow international agreements, immigration, but for all the internal things they can completely create an own jurisdiction.

And so, Coming back to your question, uh, since I also was involved and we have in PROSPERA and, uh, we have all also very good contacts to Massimo Marzono, who is the creator of the second CD, Morazan, which is really more a blue collar CD for Honduran workers, but, um, and more influenced by, um, Spencer, he's Spencer McCallum.

Uh, ideas of entrepreneurial communities, but they also are based on a contract, a rental contract, which includes everything else. So [00:50:00] you can see that these two are really the first, I would say, examples in the world where you have something which is not exactly, but relatively close to a free private city.

and this, which is just existing, not an idea that somebody had and never has, has been made a reality. They do exist. They have come under attack after the, uh, the socialist government, uh, or the, the socialists won the last election. And one of their points was we have to get rid of the sad because this is selling out our countries to, uh, mostly Americans and colonialism and all these usual crap.

but the Hondurans themselves had protected the sad quite well in their, uh, constitution in the city law. So they're still there. They are under attack, but more verbal attack. And there is a lawsuit now, uh, pending, [00:51:00] uh, on the international, investment dispute, uh, arbitration court in Washington against, uh, the state of Honduras.

But actually, there are several of them. One of them is from the SEDE, uh, Prospera, claiming 10 billions in lost damages and everything. It's not to get the money, it's more to bring them back to the negotiation table and, at the moment, they're, they're, again, under attack, but Still, both SEDEs are there, and there's a third SEDE, which is just a company SEDE, uh, I'm not sure if they have given in, but, um, in any case, the two SEDEs which are more oriented towards a free private city model, they are still there, they are fighting, and, um, I've heard that all other parties, except the Socialist, Who have lost the majority recently in parliament.

All other big parties say, yeah, we are willing to, to, to talk about you and negotiate, uh, something that you can, can [00:52:00] continue to exist because they see that a lot of, uh, in Prospera, a lot of, uh, entrepreneurs are coming from all over the world. A lot of people from Honduras are finding work, um, very innovative things that they are doing there.

And, uh, I mean, destroying this. would benefit no one, right? I mean, other than they say, hey, we have destroyed the Yankees or whatever they claim, in Morazan, where basically 99 percent of the people are Hondurans, it's even more difficult to, what is the gain if they destroy this, right? And, and, uh, they have, the Morazan is in an area which is the most crime ridden part of Honduras, near the town of Choloma, and The three companies that were operating in the zone, they got cold feet after the government was so hostile and they stopped investing and stopped working.

And Massimo, the [00:53:00] owner of the Cedia, also wanted to stop any further investments, but the pressure from the Hondurans Just to live within the city was so large that he is now resumed building residential. So it's, at the moment, it's just a residential area, and you might wonder why this is the case, but the reason is just, um, in the city of Morazan, you can, can go out and have a grill party after dawn, uh, when it's dark.

It's totally impossible in the rest of this part of the country of Honduras, because gangs are dominating the streets. Every shop is closed and you don't leave the house when it's dark. Um, and you cannot just be happy with your children on the street. And this is exactly why so many people are pouring into, say, the Morals Fund, so low hanging fruit.

He's providing security, but he would provide many, many, many other things if they, um, leave him to do this again. [00:54:00] And we all have some hope that, uh, I think it's two more years until the election that then things will change again, and this will be proof. These models can survive even against a hostile government.

So it's very important what's happening in Honduras, so we all have to speak up in favor of those experiments. Remember, participation is 100 percent voluntary. There was zero land expropriated. Every piece of land has been bought by former owners. Absolute consensual voluntary society model, and everybody around has only additional options, right?

They have additional jobs, they have additional income if they want. The companies are getting, um, uh, orders from, uh, getting, getting businesses, uh, business and jobs from the zone. So, it's an additional option that wasn't there before. So the, the [00:55:00] argument that this is evil is just, it's, it's nonsense.

And I think more and more people will, will recognize this even in Honduras, uh, in the Honduran public, which is of course, in this case, the most important part of the public, and they will see that this is to the benefit of the country. Because suddenly it's corruption has disappeared, inefficiency has disappeared, extremely lengthy application procedures have disappeared.

So that immediately raises the standard of living for everyone. And that is why I'm confident that if we can prove this, let's say, on two more places in the world, then the model will be established. Now, what else is happening? Because that has been a while since this. To say this, we're established. So we were other groups, but mostly us, we were involved in this type of really getting the same SADE like autonomy that we need to establish really privately governed entities.

[00:56:00] And we had a project in West Africa, which was very far advanced. Uh, we had a law passed by parliament, a contract negotiated but not signed, unfortunately, and then there was a change in, in power, um, election, and, uh, to the surprise of everyone, it was a landslide victory of the opposition, everybody had, had accepted the coalition, and the opposition leader didn't want any of the project that the old government had established,

Knut: What country was this?

Titus: uh, Sao Tomei.

Knut: Ah,

Titus: So, to me, an island state.

Knut: Prisip, yeah, yeah.

Titus: But now, recently, he has said that he might be open to these ideas again, so maybe other groups have more success there, so, but this is not the only country, right? There are other countries where we are, have MOUs with the governments and where it's more the question, is it politically feasible?

Does the government want it to bring it on the table now? And then we have things like, which are government, um, [00:57:00] Organized like Bitcoin City could become something, uh, uh, like a free city that you have the Neon projects in Saudi Arabia, which is also, um, established by the state, but it could become, uh, uh, one country, two systems model.

I think that's even the intention. And, uh, and so far you can see that there is a trend towards those developments. It's, it's still early days, it's, it's still relatively small, but, um, I'm relatively sure that there, there are three trends in the special economic zone industry that are working in our favor.

You have all over the world, uh, more than 5, 000 special economic zone, uh, nearly 6, 000 according to the World Bank. And many of them are not functional, but some are really large and, and, and do function, and therefore businesses only. And, but over time you have seen they started as free ports, [00:58:00] warehousing, then in the 60s, then it came to manufacturing in the 80s, in the 90s and 2000s.

added services, financial services, and now they're adding residential components like in DRFC. So it's a logical next step that you then have a real city at the next time, right? Because you have all the other steps before, and many countries still think they should make a special economic zone for each industry once, which is, it's, it doesn't make much sense in my view.

But, therefore, The natural development was more and more things will happen in those zones, and the next element would be residential. And if you have everything including residential on a one country, two systems model, then it's already nearly freezing, or it can be at least adapted to that. And the other trend you have is that You have seen that the privately governed zones where a private company is acting on behalf of the state, they are more [00:59:00] successful than the publicly governed.

There's a variety of reasons, but it's a usual thing where wrong incentives, unqualified people because I'm a buddy of the government, I get become the CEO of the zone and things like that. Why they don't not really work and the privately governed who have the incentive to make profit, they do. and the third, um, uh, trend is that you really can see that the legal autonomy is also increasing.

20 years ago there was no such thing as, as own courts. Then DFC come up with own independent courts and then the Hondurans say this, were coming with, you have the right to make own laws. Then we have now. Copycats of DRFC and hopefully soon copycats of Thesedis. I'm working on that front, but I cannot disclose in which countries we are working.

And the reason for this is why, uh, because, uh, this is highly political. And no matter which party is in power, the other party will use that, uh, as a political [01:00:00] football, uh, to damage the current government. And so far, we can, it's, and it's, as you can imagine, I mean, giving up part of, uh, autonomy to, uh, to another entity, that is not an easy task.

So, um, we have to argue that it's a win win situation, which it is, but nevertheless, it's difficult. And so it takes normally, indeed, years. Until you have an agreement with the government, uh, and the majority of parliament must give their consent to make this happen. But I can assure you it's going to happen, it's going to happen in the next years.

because not only our company, but also other groups are working on that front. And now it's just a question of time because so many governments are in principle open to those ideas that, uh, I think we will see it happen soon.

Knut: Yeah, uh, very interesting stuff indeed. Uh, you said something there about like, uh, why would they attack, uh, that benefits no one, but that's sort of the [01:01:00] problem with socialism, right? It never benefits anyone in the end, and that's a great section from the, uh, The White Pill by Michael Malice, if you're aware of that book about the Soviet Empire, where Gorbachev, I think it's Gorbachev, that visits America, and he goes into a supermarket in a one horse town in some, while traveling from one city to another, and there's more food there than he has ever seen in his entire life in the Soviet Union, so even the elites there The quote unquote elites, the most successful thieves, they had less than like the poorest person in the US at the time.

Titus: But here you can see it in one country, right? So, um, let me make you an, give you an example. In Honduras, in the late 70s or early 80s, they introduced these maquilas, which were special economic zones for the textile industry. That means you could import raw material. Uh, without duties and [01:02:00] export t shirts without duty.

That was basically the whole story, right? And, um, so it was a big, uh, big advantage for the companies there because they could really, without paying extra money, could, could, could make a margin on the low labor costs and all that. And there was also, of course, a lot of opposition, especially from the leftists against those songs.

But after the first 20, 000 jobs were created, not a single party, not even the socialists, uh, requested, uh, the maquilas to be shut down. And now there are several hundred thousand people working those maquilas, uh, creating a lot of jobs in, uh, in Honduras. And there were a lot of voters, uh, uh, who are, do not want to, to lose their jobs.

And so far, the CD's were closed down too early, right? They had, did not have the opportunity to show yet what they can do, what they can [01:03:00] create. So it was a bit of a, uh, of an unlucky thing that the Honduran government also took so long time for, to make all these decisions. And, um, uh, but I still, I'm still confident if these cities, these two cities survive and they will create thousands of jobs, then the same effect will set in that we have seen before, that people then suddenly think, okay, there are thousands of people and thousands of voters.

If you close them down, they all will be angry at us. So this is my, my political hope that even in such systems, uh, um, eventually the people will say, Hey, wait a minute, why, why are they destroying thousands of jobs? Like, what would we, what do we get in exchange? Nothing.

Market Economics

Knut: I mean, this is, uh, the journey for me personally in deep diving into Austrian economics and praxeology is like, At first, you, you, when you suspect that something is wrong with the world, and when you first do the deep [01:04:00] dive, you become very cynical and you think that everything will go to shit, like every, there's totalitarianism, totalitarianist tendencies everywhere, and there's taxes everywhere, money printing everywhere, everything sucks. But the, the, the deeper you dive into human action and what people do, you realize that market forces are stronger. The light side of the force is stronger than the dark side. Like we, we, we are, uh, markets will win because they're simply more efficient and Yeah. So, so, so it's very hopeful.

Titus: And Knut, that's my point. I say, okay, if markets are so efficient, then let's adopt market mechanisms in our living together as well, right? Because eventually people will go where they are treated best. And, and that is the point, right? I treat you well, the others don't. Well, then people come to me, or as Alex Ujori put it from, from Morazan, he [01:05:00] said, we create a good system and then we just wait because eventually all the good people will show up here, right?

Well, at the moment it's not yet happening, but at the moment I see a lot of good people showing up in Dubai, which was not the case two years ago. So it's a real, I see this even in our shareholder base from my, from people is my, my, my for profit company that more and more of our people are moving to Dubai and that gives me a sign.

Okay. Obviously there's. They are dissatisfied with where they are, and this is supposedly Consider the solution. And as you say, market forces are always there and they're also also there on the market of living together because, Dubai is offering a product, right? As Monaco is, and the U S is offering a product and Venezuela is offering the product and the market makes their decision.

Then people vote with their feet and that is what you can make all kinds of propaganda and say. We have the media in [01:06:00] our hands and they will all say how good we are and how bad the others are. If people move from your country, leave your country to the other ones, then obviously what you are talking is not true.

and this is, I think, gives me hope, um, because this cannot be stopped. If, if they want really to stop people moving from one country to another, I don't think that can be done in a majority of, of countries.

Knut: Not, not, not, not now when we have this ability to do video conferencing at distance. It's, it's, to me, that's still amazing. Like some people don't, like every time I go on an airplane, I think this is fucking amazing. I'm, I'm in the air, I'm

flying. It's still amazing. Like it's, it never ceases to be amazing.

And the same goes for this stuff, this computer doing all this calculation. And it's like, And sending a signal halfway across the planet so we can talk and and exchange ideas with one another. It's changing everything and quickly

too.

Titus: And it's, it's fantastic. And it's, it's, uh, the connectivity is so much higher, right? [01:07:00] And, I think, I think before the internet, people were thinking, if you were an Austin economic, you would say maybe there are 100 of me in my country, in Germany, right? 100, I think, alike. of 80 million, or maybe thousand, but now that we have all these connections, we know that we are more, and that we can make an argument, win an argument, and then it's easy, um, and, uh, because reality Will eventually prevail in reality is that people want to have a better living and the propaganda, especially from the left is saying that's a bad thing, right?

But I say, hey, people want to have a better living. No matter if it's good or bad. It's just how it is. And so that's also what Mises said, hey, you say, okay, what I, Mises, am saying is just that if you want to create an environment where people have a better living, then you shouldn't do it this way. But I do not say that this is the [01:08:00] target.

If you say we don't want to have a better living, then of course you can use other methods. Right? And so this is, in a way, apolitical, right? Market forces, liberal, libertarianism is apolitical. You say, okay, if you want to have more freedom and, uh, and, and high quality of living, this is the way to go. But if you don't, because you are religious extremist or a sectarian, say, no, we have too much.

We need only to have very few things and that's all good. And we need guidance every day from the priest. Well, then you choose another system, of course, which is then okay. That is what we should make clear to the people that we are only, we do not want to force the whole world into our system. We just making an offer and participation is voluntary, 100 percent voluntary.

And that is my, my big goal. I would say headline of [01:09:00] free cities. This is a peace offer in the political spectrum because you can create other free cities, which are not so free or which have a more social security net, but then you have to make higher payments. This is all a product, right? No need to argue.

No need to be hostile. You make your product. I make mine.

[01:10:00]

Knut: Yeah, which is also, by the way, the best pitch for Bitcoin. It's completely voluntary. No one's forcing you.

Madeira

Knut: Like, that's, that is the big, uh, and speaking of, like, uh, I like to do my report, my duty as an, uh, ambassador for the Free Cities, uh, project, uh, we, uh, Luke and I have recently returned from Madeira where we, I spent three weeks and Luke spent about one week and we, uh, we had [01:11:00] a great time and I, I was able to be there on the island before there, there, and there are many more Bitcoiners there now. And, uh, many more, like this, this app called btcmap. org, where you can see where all the merchants are. And when, when we started the project, like one and a half years back, there was one cafe that was orange pilled. And, and of course, Andre's own company, which is, uh, Uh, uh, uh, uh, apartment rental company also accepted Bitcoin, but now there's like 30 or 40 places that all accept Bitcoin and you, you, uh, and, and also there, there's this, uh, they've, they've had this in January and February that had this, uh, Nostr Bitcoin developer, um, Gathering happening in the islands.

So there's a lot of nomads and stuff moving there. And the funny thing is when you have a critical mass and that critical mass, it's not 50%, it's like tiny when to just, if the, if that's just a tiny bunch of like minded people, and especially with coiners, [01:12:00] All the monetary problems go away because someone always has fiat and someone you can, you can shoot each other's satoshis and just solve everything and just be nice to one another and just do things voluntarily.

And there's nothing no one else can do about it. And it's so liberating. And when the actual conference happened so that the island was flooded with these people and there were so many families, I mean, I've never seen so much love in, in the same Places at once, I think, and such a beautiful setting also, this paradise island.

So I was, it made me very hopeful, even, even though it's still in the EU and there's still a government to tackle them, blah, blah, blah. As long as we have each other, we're fine.

Titus: Wasn't there an idea to create a, to, to, in, in, uh, public buildings to create a kind of a Bitcoin village or something like that? Has this made progress?

Knut: Uh, there wa there, there's still still some Bitcoiners that have ideas of, uh, you know, buying property there. And, uh, uh, not [01:13:00] only, you know, a single whale here and there, buying a lot of property, but, but also like bitcoiners pooling together. There's a, there's an idea about. Doing that in, like, akin to how people have their vacations in ski holiday resorts, uh, and they have the cabin for two weeks, uh, this would be, like, uh, a company, an international company that owns property in different jurisdictions across the world, and you can just You know, home swap with other like minded people and, and deal in Bitcoin and never have to worry, uh, about interference.

So there's a lot of stuff like that happening as well,

Titus: Yeah. And these, these are the things that are easier to be done, right? Because you don't need to have to negotiate legal autonomy from the government. We, I mean, Madeira has some autonomy. Um, uh, even the EU has granted that because they are so far away. And, uh, and so far. There was a discussion if they could extend their autonomy, but the [01:14:00] finding was that the politicians did not have the backbone to stand up against Lisbon or the European Union.

And so what we can do there is what you mentioned, just by practicing things, by bringing people together. And I'm just coming back from New Hampshire, Um, I was visiting a New Hampshire Free State project and, um, holding a speech on Liberty Forum conference, and they are doing the same. We're just bringing people together, and many of them are candidates now for, for Congress and Senate in New Hampshire or on a local level, and so we can make a difference.

Um, so they can basically prevent. Anti liberty laws now. They have enough power in the state parliament to prevent that, so that shows me this is, this is certainly a strategy that could work and it could maybe work if Madeira is becoming officially [01:15:00] a Bitcoin hotspot because these people will then influence it.

The way how things work, right? And that has happened in El Salvador when these Bitcoin beach people were just trading Bitcoin and then Bukele said, discovered that and say, hey, this is a good idea, but let's make it in the whole country. And who knows, maybe this can be replicated, um, in other places. And, and, and so far I can only, that's why we are supporting all those projects, right?

And no matter if it's Seasteading, if it's a Madeira project, where you say, okay, probably don't get legal autonomy, but you can get factual autonomy by just doing the things you mentioned,

Knut: which is in a way more important because like, it's, it's the actual freedom you have, like the freedom to opt out. As long as you deal in Bitcoin and never convert back to the banking system, you don't have the problems, like they just go away, they just vanish. But for that to be the case, you need other Bitcoiners or you need to

Titus: a network.

Knut: convert people. Yeah.

Titus: [01:16:00] network is coming into existence.

The Bitcoin (Social) Network

Titus: Remember, it was not last year, but the year before, where you had Bitcoiners. Saying, okay, you can, you can make your living, you can buy all kinds of products with Bitcoins, right? Where people are really offering this as a, as a business, as a service, Bitcoin warehouse and, and things like that, right?

Knut: is, uh, through what, uh, one of our sponsors, Wasabi Wallet, uh, who has a service where you can now buy anything in Europe for Bitcoin. And, like, it's through a private chat with a, a provider that will order the thing for you and then send it, uh, and then take care of all the legal stuff and, uh, order it properly from wherever.

At all the stores in Fiat. And this entity, who shall remain unnamed, uh, does, uh Or maybe several entities, uh, does all that stuff. And you can order with Bitcoin to anywhere in Europe. Of [01:17:00] course you have to, uh, give, give an address, but that's, that's much privacy as you have to give up and via Wasabi wallet, you can coin join and have your Bitcoins be completely private as well.

So there's no way for anyone to, to, to stop that. And, and all of these. These kinds of developments, which are legal, it's just that some people want, really, really want to make them illegal for some reason that we libertarians don't understand because it's victimless crime. But, but the tools are being developed and they are coming.

And I, I think It's an inevitability that more and more jurisdictions will, will cling on to, especially Bitcoin, because, because of the game theory, countries that do will fare better. It's, it's just a simple fact. They attract a lot of money. Look at El Salvador. It's a perfect example.

Titus: indeed, then for this reason alone, thank God we have 200 countries, not only one world government, right? Because this competition between the countries that is [01:18:00] making that things happening. And as you said, people will now watch. What's happening in El Salvador, and if, if El Salvador is successful, then especially the countries, the poorer countries that have to do something, they will adopt.

I mean, Switzerland will probably not follow El Salvador right now, right?

Knut: Never say never!

Titus: yeah, well, they have done their Lugano stuff, right? But this is on a, on a local level. But, um, successful, strong countries, they have lesser need for change than poorer countries. It's just how it is. And that gives the poorer countries a competitive advantage.

Which is good, that's how competition works and it should be like that. Um, but it's, it's still so that when you're coming back to these, why we libertarians don't understand that, um, the problem is for the majority of people this is not a victimless crime because they say you have to give your fair share to the state, which is us, right, we the [01:19:00] collective, Um, and their notion is that you do not own things, but you only can use them on behalf of all of us.

So, and that is, I, you can't argue that away. The only, um, the only thing we can do is physically separate from those people and show that our systems will create A better standard of living for everyone, including the poor people, than their systems. I've tried to convince people 30 years on the political front.

It's not going to work.

Knut: Especially the poor people! Because what happens is the prices fall to their marginal cost of production, and that's Especially benefits the poorer people. And if there's inflation, any inflation. The prices can't fall to the marginal cost of production because there's no measuring stick.

Titus: And Knut, we just need to show this. We need some time, we need some jurisdictions and [01:20:00] some years to show this. And I think that is giving me hope because that's how the world works. It will show to people. Um, that it's working. And if we have a higher standard of living, there will still be a lot of propaganda, right?

Uh, but people will just say, compare, right? They will compare China with Hong Kong in 1990s and say, let's go to Hong Kong, right? Uh, and, and the same will happen again. And, um, um, I'm curious, Madeira, are they using a lightning system for their payments in Bitcoin or how is it

Knut: Mostly, yes, yes, uh, or like, uh, BTCPayServer is a fantastic company, by the way, who, uh, uh, uh, handled all the payments during the conference, most enlightening. Uh, and, uh, oh, I don't remember the exact figure, but there was a lot of money changing hands, all frictionless, worked like a dream, uh, the entire thing. Uh, and, uh, so it's fantastic, but most of the, I mean, the retailers [01:21:00] on the island that accept that you have everything from someone Just accepting it on his personal phone to actual payment terminals, like everything in between, like Bitcoin is not imposed on anyone or centralized. So you have all sorts of different solutions, right?

Titus: Exactly. It should be like that,

Knut: exactly. It's, it's flourishing. It's a, it's an ecosystem in the, the word's true sense. It's, it's a nature blooming. that's that's what it feels like. So, uh, yeah,

Titus: And to get an idea about what these autonomous songs idea, once it's taking off, can, can do is when in Honduras, the government change was, and we had three existing SADES, the people from the old government told me there were 20 more applications on their desk. 20 more zones and some zones are more environmental protectionist and all kinds of things.

So [01:22:00] that was the original idea that the CD would change the whole country of Honduras. It was stopped now by socialists winning, but there's another election and once this is taking off, it will be like you described it in Madeira. All kinds of different models will pop up, flourish, some will disappear again, but others will really be successful.

And the learning curve is going like this, right? I mean, the learning curve today in the market of living together is Soviet Union, 70 years until they found out it's not working. Two generations, basically three generations basically erased it, and then it takes another 200 years to find out, okay, this constitutional model is maybe not really a protection, whereas in our model, it's a question of years, right?

And the learning curve will be extremely steep.

Knut: yeah. I, I somewhat see the, the price of Bitcoin as a derivative of the, the, the learning curve for, for humanity in general about freedom [01:23:00] and how to, how you need to it. To take it that no one will give it for you to you for free, but you have to take matters into your own hands and like the price of Bitcoin, at least if you zoom out enough or put it on a log scale or whatever to make it more visually compelling, it somewhat reflects our knowledge of the collective knowledge of the world.

Tipolis

Knut: Anyway, uh, Luke, do you have a question for Titus? I think it's high time we let you in before we run out of it.

Luke: Sure, Tidus. Yeah, sorry, Knut. Thank you. And yeah, Tidus, this has been fantastic. I've really enjoyed hearing your perspective on all these things. I think it's not only very aligned with what we're doing, but practical. I like specifically your take on the kind of the security and the incentives to keep these free economic cities um Secure.

my, my, my question, uh, I guess, since you, you covered a lot of these things from the, the, um, I guess, theoretical [01:24:00] perspective and then from the, what's going on here in, in Honduras, uh, can you tell us a little more about, uh, your, your company, uh, Teepolis and, and what you're working with there?

Titus: Yeah, so we have gathered a team of people who are partly coming from the retirement spectrum, partly just from the international special economic zone industry to, to make a professional approach. So it's not convincing people about, uh, philosophical ideas of voluntarism or libertarism. It's just a purely for profit model because again, we think free markets are best.

So I think. Such a libertarian model can only work if it's not a group of idealists or a group of scholars creating a new system of living together, but if it's driven to make profit. I think this is just the best incentive you can have. Okay.

Knut: you're for losses. Yeah,

Titus: yes, but, uh, [01:25:00] there are two things, right? I mean, I've, I've been in, in, in this sector for a long time, uh, for venture capital.

Uh, you, you, at the moment, we are not, we are making some small money with consulting, but mostly we're making losses. But on the other hand, our value is increasing, right? We have just, we have just finalized the financing round on the pre money valuation of 25 million. So this is not nothing, right? It's just now it's 30.

So post money. So this is, this is showing you, okay, even if you're losing money, but people see that there's value in what you're doing. Um, your, your, your value is growing and at the same time, we are working on, on becoming profitable. So what we are currently doing is we have, um, especially I would say in Latin America, some discussions on a highest level with presidents, prime ministers, uh, government level, uh, if we [01:26:00] can establish something like, uh, in Honduras.

But not this, more this free private city model, so that you have a government, a company is entitled by the government. So in Honduras, it's a little bit of mixed, a hybrid model, because they wanted to replicate Hong Kong, and then at the same time, private governance was mixed. Relatively complicated model.

So, we want to go more for the pure model, but it also depends on what is politically feasible. So, we are trying to create real free cities, autonomous zones, mostly in Latin America. We have some, I would say, projects that are in between that are not fully, the full model, but they are capitalizing on local autonomies that are there.

And we are also consulting.

Governments, [01:27:00] I would say, in the Middle East region, who want to, uh, come up with innovative new things in the special conduct zones industry.

And, um, Madeiras is another example, and where we, we hope that we can, um, Create together with them something that, that is a win win situation for us, uh, Friends of Liberty, as well as for the, for the local governments. And the local economy. And I think it's possible. And, uh, and so far this is, um, these are the areas where we are working.

And so to put it in a nutshell, we have some of the more flagship project where we go for the real free private city autonomy model. Few countries, then we have something in between, which is then more little bit like financial center models, uh, local autonomy models. And we have some consulting jobs. And, um, this is why I'm so relatively confident that, uh, that we will be eventually [01:28:00] successful because it's, I followed the history of these attempts to create new countries and autonomous areas in the past.

There may be one attempt every 10 years. Now we have 10 to 20 every year. So, um, it's just there's momentum there. And as I said, the other groups are working in the same market. And so it's, it's relatively probable that we will see more CDA type autonomies. Uh, in the future, we can try out new things. We will have, we see different things, maybe even real countries like, or autonomous entities will, will come up and suddenly are becoming, you know, Bitcoin destinations, hotspots or whatever.

Um, there are other places in Africa where also a lot of things are going on at the moment. But it's, uh, it's too early days to, uh, um, to, to see what's, what's coming out of this. But I can only invite you, Luke, and everybody else to follow the [01:29:00] newsletter of the Free CDs Foundation, free cds. org, because there you will get the newest news if, if, uh, new projects, uh, have reached the stage where they can be published.

Luke: Fantastic. Yeah. Lovely to hear about all of this, um, practical stuff going on and, uh, yeah. Looking forward to seeing what's going on with the. Free Cities movement, uh, hopeful that Bitcoin and the free cities can, uh, um, see the aligned incentives and, uh, work together somehow. But again, only through, only through the, the voluntary and consensual, uh, uh, relations of the, the people involved with both.

Wrapping Up

Luke: So, uh, Knut, anything else?

Knut: we're doing that right now, uh, we're emitting freedom dioxide together and we're proud of it. And, uh, Titus, you have an impressive freedom footprint already, and we're happy to have increased it a little more, I hope. And so great to have you on here. And I [01:30:00] hope to see you soon again, uh, probably in Prague, um, this, uh, This fall, I guess?

Titus: Yeah, it would be fantastic. It's from the 1st to 3rd November in Prague, the same venue as last time Empire Hall. Um, and it's also, uh, visible at the Free Cities Foundation's website and, uh, it's a fantastic crowd. Uh, we had a great conference and also a very positive mood, right? So, uh, somebody told me nobody was talking about politics, but there were families there and, and everybody's talking about their projects and what they are making progress.

And, And the good thing is that there is a network coming into existence by people meeting. It's not only just Bitcoin with the Bitcoiners or how are Bitcoin applications, but it's also between the projects amongst each other. For example, we have now And this is what was, what I always was saying, this was one of the reasons for making this conference is you should know [01:31:00] about each other, right?

And for the first time we had a representative from New Hampshire Free State Project in Prague. We had, as usual, Liberland, uh, Liberstadt from nowhere was their first time, and the Montelibro guys from Montenegro. Now the interesting thing is, um, the European international communities in Liberland, they have made, uh, basically, they are cooperating now.

Liberstadt. In Norway, with Liberland, Croatia, Serbia, and Monteliber and Montenegro, they even want to introduce a bus line in the summer. The bus is traveling between those three communities. And that is, we are not many people, right? But that gives us a particular strength that we are working together, that we can exchange each other.

Uh, again, that's a great thing of, of technology today. Um, and, and that was for me, it's kind of, okay, the first, [01:32:00] Results from the idea to create a movement, create a network are now bearing fruit, right? These people, uh, without introducing me or so, are immediately acting with each other, cooperating with each other, helping each other.

And that, uh, that is only the beginning, right? I mean, we will have probably, um, uh, in, in 5 to 10 years, a whole network all over the world Where people cooperating with each other, they all know each other and they help each other. And this gives us enormous strength, even if it's in summer, maybe only 10, 000 people.

But this will, will be enormous, right? And so I'm really, every year, I'm really looking forward to what we will learn new from the conference, from the projects, and I hope Knut and Luke, next time I'm here, I can really then tell you about a concrete project. We are relatively advanced with one, and then we can, we have another spot on [01:33:00] the, on the map.

Knut: Ah, fantastic. Yeah, it all boils down to Metcalfe's law. The value of a communications network is equal to the square of its users, so we grow exponentially in value. Uh, Titus, this has been great. Thank you so much for coming on. This has been the Freedom Footprint show, and Luke knows what to say next.

Luke: Uh, yeah, uh, Titus, can you tell our listeners, cause Knut sort of jumped ahead a little bit, can you tell our listeners where they can find you and any more information, anywhere else you'd like to direct our listeners?

Titus: So, as I said, the Free Cities Foundation would be the first, um, uh, website I would, I would contact. It's freeminercity. org. You'll find tons of information, the newsletter. I, I urge you to, to subscribe to the newsletter just to be up to date, informed. Uh, if you want to find out more about me and Tipulis, maybe just go to titosgabel.

com or tipulis. com. Um, yeah, that's, [01:34:00] that's more or less, and have a look at my book if you like what, uh, the concept, the idea, then, uh, the white paper, it can be downloaded for free. And there's a book, um, available also, uh, either Amazon or through the Free Cities Foundation's website.

Luke: Absolutely. Fantastic. Thank you again, Titus, for coming on. This has been the Freedom Footprint Show. Thanks for listening.