Oct. 21, 2023

Supporting the Lightning Network with Henrik Skogstrøm

Supporting the Lightning Network with Henrik Skogstrøm

In this episode we are joined by Henrik Skogstrøm, founder of Torq (formerly LN Capital), to talk about the Lightning network! We learn a lot about how Lightning works, the things Lightning companies need to do to keep the experience seamless for use...

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The Bitcoin Infinity Show

In this episode we are joined by Henrik Skogstrøm, founder of Torq (formerly LN Capital), to talk about the Lightning network! We learn a lot about how Lightning works, the things Lightning companies need to do to keep the experience seamless for users, and how Torq can help with that. 

Connect with Henrik on Twitter: https://twitter.com/ohskogstrom
Follow Torq on Twitter: https://twitter.com/TorqLN
Torq's Website: https://torq.co/

Chapters:
00:01:33 - Introduction to Henrik Skogstrøm
00:03:55 - The Lightning Network
00:07:31 - The Philosophical Case for Lightning
00:17:01 - Lightning As a Scaling Solution
00:21:12 - Henrik's Orange Pill Journey
00:29:17 - Bitcoin Situation in Norway
00:37:26 - Lightning for Cross-Border Payments
00:45:13 - Merchant Adoption
00:51:12 - Developing on Bitcoin
00:55:16 - Wrapping Up

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Transcript
1 00:00:00,000 --> 00:00:03,830 basically if you're any type of company that touches the Lightning Network 2 00:00:03,830 --> 00:00:08,787 directly through a node, then you need to be able to manage that node and 3 00:00:08,787 --> 00:00:10,767 you need to have systems around it. 4 00:00:10,817 --> 00:00:14,486 So that can be anything from seeing which channels you have, how many 5 00:00:14,486 --> 00:00:17,650 payments have gone out or in, you yeah, opening and closing channels, 6 00:00:17,740 --> 00:00:20,370 it can be even just account systems. 7 00:00:20,410 --> 00:00:23,760 So if you have customers that have different balances that you hold for 8 00:00:23,760 --> 00:00:24,570 them, you need to keep track of that. 9 00:00:24,590 --> 00:00:25,787 Um, and. 10 00:00:26,052 --> 00:00:28,602 Torque helps you do a lot of these things. 11 00:00:28,804 --> 00:00:30,354 Welcome back to the Freedom Footprint Show. 12 00:00:30,959 --> 00:00:35,049 The Bitcoin Philosophy Show with Knut Svanholm and me, Luke the Pseudo Finn. 13 00:00:35,939 --> 00:00:40,969 Today we're joined by Henrik Skogström, founder of TORQ, formerly LN Capital, 14 00:00:41,039 --> 00:00:42,429 to talk about the Lightning Network. 15 00:00:43,339 --> 00:00:47,129 We learn a lot about how Lightning works, the things Lightning companies need to do 16 00:00:47,129 --> 00:00:51,219 to keep the experience seamless for users, and how TORQ can help with all that. 17 00:00:52,199 --> 00:00:54,929 But before we jump in, I'll quickly cover how you can support the show. 18 00:00:55,454 --> 00:00:58,494 First, you can send us a boost or stream us some sats using a value for 19 00:00:58,494 --> 00:01:00,304 value podcasting app such as Fountain. 20 00:01:00,904 --> 00:01:03,574 If you're listening to this show as a podcast, check it out on Fountain. 21 00:01:03,584 --> 00:01:06,344 You can earn sats from listening and you can support us in all 22 00:01:06,344 --> 00:01:07,324 your other favorite shows. 23 00:01:08,174 --> 00:01:11,334 You can also support us on Geiser with Bitcoin or on Patreon if you 24 00:01:11,334 --> 00:01:12,564 want to get rid of your dirty fiat. 25 00:01:13,079 --> 00:01:14,459 All our links are in the description. 26 00:01:15,949 --> 00:01:20,499 And finally, we want to thank today's sponsors, Amber App, Wasabi Wallet, Orange 27 00:01:20,499 --> 00:01:23,099 Pill App, The Bitcoin Way, and Geyser. 28 00:01:23,289 --> 00:01:24,939 All their information is in the description. 29 00:01:25,109 --> 00:01:26,599 We'll be talking a bit more about them later. 30 00:01:27,649 --> 00:01:31,909 And now, without further ado, here is Henrik Skogström on 31 00:01:32,109 --> 00:01:33,349 the Freedom Footprint show. 32 00:01:33,666 --> 00:01:35,426 Henrik, welcome to the Freedom Footprint show. 33 00:01:35,466 --> 00:01:36,216 Thanks for joining us. 34 00:01:37,026 --> 00:01:37,926 Thank you for having me. 35 00:01:38,391 --> 00:01:38,571 Yeah. 36 00:01:38,571 --> 00:01:39,441 Welcome Hendrik. 37 00:01:39,603 --> 00:01:44,283 I can give a TLDR on, on how we got connected because this is, this is 38 00:01:44,283 --> 00:01:50,013 sort of a in real life connection story via orange pill app, a shout out 39 00:01:52,119 --> 00:01:56,899 so, so, uh, yeah, we, we met at a, uh, we didn't meet, but. 40 00:01:56,929 --> 00:02:02,298 I met somebody who works with your, your company Torque, in a, in a 41 00:02:02,318 --> 00:02:06,179 live event, uh, orange pill app event, uh, in Tampere, Finland. 42 00:02:06,199 --> 00:02:12,374 And, uh, we were at a sauna, party and, uh, And then, uh, yeah, we found out 43 00:02:12,374 --> 00:02:17,684 that there's a connection between, uh, yourself and, uh, and Finland and, uh, 44 00:02:17,744 --> 00:02:22,634 got to talking that it would be, uh, nice to get you on our show and, uh, hear 45 00:02:22,634 --> 00:02:25,734 about everything you're doing with the Lightning Network because we, we have 46 00:02:25,744 --> 00:02:29,814 not had anyone who is a Lightning expert. 47 00:02:30,374 --> 00:02:32,854 In any real respect, come onto the show and talk to us. 48 00:02:32,874 --> 00:02:39,004 So yeah, welcome Henrik, and let's maybe start off with an introduction 49 00:02:39,834 --> 00:02:43,724 to yourself and the work that you do. 50 00:02:44,172 --> 00:02:44,722 Yeah, great. 51 00:02:44,752 --> 00:02:46,232 Uh, again, thanks for having me. 52 00:02:46,242 --> 00:02:50,232 And, uh, yeah, cool connection, uh, through, uh, Yoho there. 53 00:02:50,802 --> 00:02:55,722 Um, yeah, so introduction, uh, of me, I've, I've been working in the 54 00:02:55,722 --> 00:02:58,242 lighting industry since, uh, 2019. 55 00:02:58,412 --> 00:03:05,957 Um, maybe start with, my name is Henrik Skogström, uh, and, uh, we, um, Yeah, 56 00:03:05,977 --> 00:03:10,427 we, at Torque, we're building sort of this, um, management, lightning 57 00:03:10,427 --> 00:03:12,657 management platform for enterprises. 58 00:03:13,347 --> 00:03:17,667 Uh, so we've been really deep into how lightning works and different 59 00:03:17,747 --> 00:03:20,207 implementations for almost two years now. 60 00:03:20,867 --> 00:03:23,397 Uh, and it's been a ton of fun. 61 00:03:23,787 --> 00:03:27,227 So, um, hopefully we can dive into something, uh, some of 62 00:03:27,227 --> 00:03:28,257 the evolution there as well. 63 00:03:28,755 --> 00:03:34,545 yeah, I've been using the Lightning Network since 2019 and I'm just baffled 64 00:03:34,550 --> 00:03:39,145 by how people are so ignorant about it and don't know about it and how awesome it is. 65 00:03:39,825 --> 00:03:43,965 Uh, so, so, but, but as, as I understand it, like most people use 66 00:03:43,965 --> 00:03:45,735 custodial lightning, uh, lightning. 67 00:03:46,390 --> 00:03:51,030 And I'm guilty as charged most of the time myself, uh, because I usually 68 00:03:51,030 --> 00:03:54,750 just use a custodial service and then put it into cold storage later. 69 00:03:55,950 --> 00:03:59,870 Could you give us an explanation of that and how, how the network, what 70 00:03:59,870 --> 00:04:04,640 the network looks like at this point, like how, uh, non custodial is it 71 00:04:04,680 --> 00:04:06,890 and, uh, what are the trade offs? 72 00:04:07,804 --> 00:04:08,314 Yeah, sure. 73 00:04:08,314 --> 00:04:14,243 So, I think it's important to remember when you need true self custody 74 00:04:14,363 --> 00:04:16,573 custody and in what scenarios. 75 00:04:16,683 --> 00:04:21,753 The dream world is that everybody has 100 percent control of absolutely 76 00:04:21,773 --> 00:04:24,033 all their money at all times, right? 77 00:04:24,603 --> 00:04:30,223 Um, but at the same time, if you have a wallet with a hundred dollars in it. 78 00:04:30,878 --> 00:04:34,148 It's not the end of the world if somebody rugs that one. 79 00:04:34,638 --> 00:04:38,908 It's of course bad to have sort of a situation where either a company can rug 80 00:04:38,908 --> 00:04:45,178 you or some hacker can get access to it, but There is this balance to, to reach. 81 00:04:45,188 --> 00:04:52,337 So what we're seeing currently is that there are major providers that are like 82 00:04:52,347 --> 00:04:57,077 Vault of Satoshi and, and these that are custodial that a lot of people are using. 83 00:04:57,707 --> 00:05:03,727 Um, But we're also seeing an increase in, um, self custodial 84 00:05:03,727 --> 00:05:06,347 wallets like Breeze, for example. 85 00:05:06,467 --> 00:05:14,627 Um, and in these cases, they're very often paired with, um, large LSP nodes. 86 00:05:15,587 --> 00:05:21,067 And both of these types of companies and wallets have the effect of... 87 00:05:21,362 --> 00:05:27,002 Gathering up a lot of liquidity in certain nodes, um, and that is 88 00:05:27,022 --> 00:05:29,862 by some seen as centralization. 89 00:05:30,162 --> 00:05:34,152 Um, the reality is more that it's centralization of capacity 90 00:05:34,152 --> 00:05:38,972 or capital to some places, and it's quite natural because if you 91 00:05:38,972 --> 00:05:44,252 have, if you're an individual, you don't need 20, 000 on your node. 92 00:05:44,572 --> 00:05:49,562 Um, but a business or an LSP or wall provider definitely needs more than that. 93 00:05:50,762 --> 00:05:52,632 So that is sort of some of the effect we're seeing. 94 00:05:52,642 --> 00:05:52,652 I 95 00:05:53,508 --> 00:05:53,938 Okay. 96 00:05:53,938 --> 00:05:59,128 So, uh, um, so can you give us a, uh, for, for those of our listeners 97 00:05:59,128 --> 00:06:02,818 who don't know how lightning works, because it's kind of complicated. 98 00:06:02,818 --> 00:06:08,158 Is there a, a quick way of explaining what the lightning network is and how it works? 99 00:06:08,812 --> 00:06:13,402 Yeah, um, so the Lightning Network is a scaling solution for Bitcoin. 100 00:06:14,442 --> 00:06:20,232 So what it, the way it scales Bitcoin is that you do one Bitcoin transaction 101 00:06:20,282 --> 00:06:21,792 to open what we call a channel. 102 00:06:22,342 --> 00:06:25,992 And through that channel, you can send as many transactions as you want. 103 00:06:26,162 --> 00:06:30,252 Basically, what you're doing is just asking the other party and yourself 104 00:06:30,292 --> 00:06:32,772 to update a contract between yourself. 105 00:06:33,426 --> 00:06:38,516 about how much Bitcoin each side has and that contract is basically just a 106 00:06:38,526 --> 00:06:40,976 potential normal Bitcoin transaction. 107 00:06:41,846 --> 00:06:47,376 Um, and since this doesn't have to be broadcast to the world, you can do that as 108 00:06:47,376 --> 00:06:49,506 many times you want, as fast as you want. 109 00:06:50,036 --> 00:06:52,516 Um, and of course don't impact everybody else. 110 00:06:52,876 --> 00:06:53,376 Bitcoin 111 00:06:56,436 --> 00:06:56,836 transactions. 112 00:06:57,526 --> 00:07:02,036 Um, the second effect there is that You can have a challenge with multiple 113 00:07:02,036 --> 00:07:06,936 parties and I can ask somebody, I can send money to somebody I'm not 114 00:07:06,946 --> 00:07:11,406 directly connected to because I can ask different hops or different node 115 00:07:11,406 --> 00:07:15,966 operators that I have a challenge with to relay a transaction through them. 116 00:07:16,546 --> 00:07:20,206 And this, of course, is always done without any form of trust 117 00:07:20,206 --> 00:07:21,756 involved in that transaction. 118 00:07:22,416 --> 00:07:26,486 Uh, so that might not have been as, uh, short and straightforward 119 00:07:26,646 --> 00:07:30,306 as it could be, but that's sort of a very short explanation of what 120 00:07:30,326 --> 00:07:31,556 Lightning is and how it works. 121 00:07:32,094 --> 00:07:33,264 Yeah, don't worry. 122 00:07:33,264 --> 00:07:36,254 I think most of our listeners have some understanding of this stuff. 123 00:07:36,254 --> 00:07:37,594 So, uh, the. 124 00:07:38,359 --> 00:07:44,449 The thing I'm curious about is like, uh, the regulations that are popping up in 125 00:07:44,459 --> 00:07:46,359 different jurisdictions around Bitcoin. 126 00:07:48,369 --> 00:07:54,349 Uh, could you make, like, a legal case for Lightning not being anything but 127 00:07:55,239 --> 00:08:02,299 mathematics, and thereby, like, since, since it doesn't ever have to touch 128 00:08:02,814 --> 00:08:07,114 The base chain, really, you could just call it messages between people. 129 00:08:07,204 --> 00:08:14,054 And maybe, do you know of any anyone that's trying to 130 00:08:14,054 --> 00:08:15,764 lobby a politician or like, 131 00:08:16,796 --> 00:08:20,166 some lawmaker around in these areas? 132 00:08:20,186 --> 00:08:24,636 Because like, to me, you know, money should be under free speech laws 133 00:08:24,686 --> 00:08:28,026 that should like, I do not care what you pay, but you will fight to 134 00:08:28,026 --> 00:08:29,256 the death for your right to pay it. 135 00:08:29,696 --> 00:08:35,556 Um, Because what bitcoins obviously has pointed out to everyone is that money 136 00:08:35,656 --> 00:08:38,236 really is nothing but information. 137 00:08:38,236 --> 00:08:44,206 And money ness is more of an adjective than a noun and all of this philosophical 138 00:08:44,206 --> 00:08:46,196 stuff that we touch on often in this show. 139 00:08:46,746 --> 00:08:49,316 Um, but lightning is a special case. 140 00:08:49,386 --> 00:08:53,246 I mean, you, you could make a good legal case for lightning 141 00:08:53,246 --> 00:08:56,766 transactions, not being transactions at all, but just messages, right? 142 00:08:57,470 --> 00:09:00,830 Yeah, it's a very interesting question, I guess. 143 00:09:00,890 --> 00:09:06,646 So, I talked to some lawyers about this recently, and I think, it 144 00:09:06,646 --> 00:09:12,216 depends on what each country thinks related to money transferring laws. 145 00:09:13,256 --> 00:09:16,866 But I very much agree with the philosophical thought of 146 00:09:16,866 --> 00:09:18,716 it being just communication. 147 00:09:18,806 --> 00:09:25,336 Um, Or language, because yeah, you, you move, like moving money is 148 00:09:25,346 --> 00:09:27,696 essentially saying I value this thing. 149 00:09:27,776 --> 00:09:34,196 Um, I'm no legal expert, but it's, it's something where the power of it is so big 150 00:09:34,216 --> 00:09:39,241 that it should be a fundamental right we have as humans to be able to transact. 151 00:09:39,482 --> 00:09:45,732 Yeah, given that we have such a high degree of, uh, like everything is digital 152 00:09:45,732 --> 00:09:51,222 around us, being able to pay online or digitally is becoming so important 153 00:09:51,232 --> 00:09:52,902 that it should be a basic human right. 154 00:09:53,342 --> 00:09:58,792 And, uh, yeah, lightning is a tool to, to make that possibility because 155 00:09:58,792 --> 00:10:05,222 right now finance is, or payments is a very permission, um, based 156 00:10:05,422 --> 00:10:10,937 system where certain parts of, um, The globe can't access that system. 157 00:10:10,957 --> 00:10:15,777 So yeah, philosophically, that's a really interesting topic. 158 00:10:17,294 --> 00:10:17,584 Henrik. 159 00:10:17,844 --> 00:10:23,184 Yeah, uh, to my knowledge, like, each lightning node does not know, uh, 160 00:10:23,194 --> 00:10:27,954 where the, it knows the, what node the transaction comes from and where it's 161 00:10:27,964 --> 00:10:31,724 going to, but it does not know how long the chain is, and it does not know 162 00:10:31,734 --> 00:10:36,514 how, uh, what the final destination is or where it came from originally. 163 00:10:37,084 --> 00:10:42,264 So, so, uh, How private is a Lightning transaction? 164 00:10:42,264 --> 00:10:47,294 Like, I mean, obviously it's less private if you're using a custodian, 165 00:10:47,294 --> 00:10:51,114 but how private is it if you're doing it properly, so to speak? 166 00:10:51,953 --> 00:10:57,283 So yeah, a custodian will see, of course, who you are, if they're doing KYC, and 167 00:10:57,283 --> 00:10:59,573 they will see who you're sending it to. 168 00:11:02,073 --> 00:11:08,798 If you're not Using a custodian, you're 100 percent generating invoices and 169 00:11:08,798 --> 00:11:10,768 paying invoices on your own device. 170 00:11:11,608 --> 00:11:15,148 That can be sort of something like Breeze or it can be a wallet. 171 00:11:15,688 --> 00:11:20,158 Then it is, um, then it is very private. 172 00:11:20,588 --> 00:11:25,108 The hops in between don't see, as you said, they don't see what the length 173 00:11:25,108 --> 00:11:26,888 are, where the payment is actually going. 174 00:11:26,918 --> 00:11:30,428 If you're the first hop or so the payment is coming from you or not. 175 00:11:31,293 --> 00:11:34,763 Um, and this again has some interesting effects on the legal 176 00:11:34,763 --> 00:11:40,823 systems, uh, for larger financial institutions and different, um, uh, 177 00:11:41,163 --> 00:11:43,283 payment providers, uh, out there. 178 00:11:43,873 --> 00:11:48,053 So, but other than that, other than sort of the routing, this 179 00:11:48,083 --> 00:11:50,073 is like paying with cash again. 180 00:11:50,223 --> 00:11:51,093 It is like you. 181 00:11:51,573 --> 00:11:54,623 You sort of pay with cash right through your mobile or, 182 00:11:55,043 --> 00:11:58,413 or, um, uh, computer screen. 183 00:11:59,073 --> 00:12:04,163 Uh, so in that sense, it's back to a very basic and known element that we have. 184 00:12:04,631 --> 00:12:08,871 All right, so, uh, Lightning is known as a layer two solution to Bitcoin 185 00:12:09,091 --> 00:12:14,751 because layer one is viewed as the, uh, the base chain is viewed as layer one. 186 00:12:15,161 --> 00:12:18,961 I would say that layer zero is the people involved or are the people 187 00:12:18,961 --> 00:12:24,611 involved, uh, that because there's no layer one without, without the people. 188 00:12:25,081 --> 00:12:30,991 So, uh, Is there, is there a layer three coming and what would that be in your, in 189 00:12:30,991 --> 00:12:36,301 your mind with like, what, what problem does it even solve when we already 190 00:12:36,301 --> 00:12:40,221 have lightning, like, is there a layer on top of this coming in the future? 191 00:12:40,221 --> 00:12:41,731 And what would that look like? 192 00:12:42,230 --> 00:12:47,450 I mean, it's, um, at definition, I don't know, like there's applications, 193 00:12:47,490 --> 00:12:48,910 of course, on top of Lightning. 194 00:12:48,910 --> 00:12:52,630 And then we have, uh, I guess layering is the sort of protocols 195 00:12:52,850 --> 00:12:54,120 doing something different. 196 00:12:54,150 --> 00:12:54,860 I mean, um. 197 00:12:55,270 --> 00:12:58,180 Separate assets and something like that could be considered a layer three 198 00:12:58,210 --> 00:13:04,160 where we use Lightning as the transport layer and then we use some other 199 00:13:04,160 --> 00:13:08,090 protocol to have some other meaning to those transactions on top of it. 200 00:13:08,530 --> 00:13:12,490 So that can be considered a layer three to add more functionality that 201 00:13:12,490 --> 00:13:14,400 isn't possible on Lightning itself. 202 00:13:15,060 --> 00:13:17,280 Um, scalability wise. 203 00:13:18,610 --> 00:13:23,110 I don't, yeah, it's, it's not something I think would be adding a third 204 00:13:23,110 --> 00:13:25,390 layer for scalability again, right? 205 00:13:25,850 --> 00:13:27,150 Lightning pretty much solves that. 206 00:13:27,548 --> 00:13:29,668 Okay, so what is, what is torque? 207 00:13:29,678 --> 00:13:32,048 Like, what do you do at torque? 208 00:13:32,068 --> 00:13:33,998 Well, what is the, what is torque? 209 00:13:35,008 --> 00:13:40,268 Yeah, so basically if you're any type of company that touches the Lightning 210 00:13:40,268 --> 00:13:45,778 Network directly through a node, then you need to be able to manage that node 211 00:13:45,778 --> 00:13:47,938 and you need to have systems around it. 212 00:13:47,988 --> 00:13:52,698 So that can be anything from seeing which channels you have, how many 213 00:13:52,698 --> 00:13:54,748 payments have gone out or in, you know. 214 00:13:54,878 --> 00:13:58,898 Um, um, yeah, opening and closing channels, it can be 215 00:13:59,178 --> 00:14:00,728 even just account systems. 216 00:14:00,768 --> 00:14:04,118 So if you have customers that have different balances that you hold for 217 00:14:04,118 --> 00:14:04,928 them, you need to keep track of that. 218 00:14:04,948 --> 00:14:10,568 Um, and all these sort of different aspects of interacting 219 00:14:10,568 --> 00:14:11,478 on the Lightning Network. 220 00:14:12,088 --> 00:14:12,468 and. 221 00:14:13,118 --> 00:14:15,668 Torque helps you do a lot of these things. 222 00:14:15,668 --> 00:14:18,528 I mean, constantly expanding and adding modules to Torque. 223 00:14:18,958 --> 00:14:22,658 But right now, the modules we have is that we help you collect 224 00:14:22,658 --> 00:14:26,188 data about all the traffic and everything going on with your node. 225 00:14:27,058 --> 00:14:31,098 We then help you open and close channels, for example, either 226 00:14:31,108 --> 00:14:32,798 manually or automatically. 227 00:14:33,718 --> 00:14:37,738 We'll let you see all that data, so you can interact and analyze 228 00:14:37,768 --> 00:14:38,738 everything that's going on. 229 00:14:39,498 --> 00:14:42,708 Um, we also have the ability to manage multiple nodes. 230 00:14:42,708 --> 00:14:47,088 And this is important because a lot of the enterprises around, uh, today, they have 231 00:14:47,088 --> 00:14:52,458 multiple nodes for redundancy reasons and for special, um, specializing the traffic. 232 00:14:53,298 --> 00:14:56,908 Um, so for example, you can have, uh, two nodes. 233 00:14:56,918 --> 00:15:00,858 One is mainly sending data or sending transactions out and one 234 00:15:00,858 --> 00:15:02,638 is mainly receiving payments. 235 00:15:03,138 --> 00:15:04,548 And then you have redundancies. 236 00:15:04,588 --> 00:15:06,868 You might have four because you have two of each. 237 00:15:07,868 --> 00:15:10,838 And this sort of increased the entire complexity of the operation, of course. 238 00:15:11,003 --> 00:15:16,913 so Because the complexity is increasing as you add more nodes and you have more 239 00:15:17,603 --> 00:15:22,643 channels, you have more transactions and things going on in your operation, 240 00:15:23,783 --> 00:15:28,213 this gets ever more complex and harder and harder to manage and build. 241 00:15:28,243 --> 00:15:35,053 So what we provide is a platform for operators to work off of so that they 242 00:15:35,053 --> 00:15:39,698 don't have to, um, Uh, build everything from scratch and they can rather build 243 00:15:39,698 --> 00:15:44,008 the systems and the end user experience that their user care about and not 244 00:15:44,038 --> 00:15:45,308 sort of know the management stuff. 245 00:15:45,870 --> 00:15:48,960 you got to remember that, for example, if you're a payment processor or your 246 00:15:48,970 --> 00:15:53,310 wallet, your customers don't care at all about how it works in the background. 247 00:15:53,750 --> 00:15:56,330 They just want a really cool user experience, they want an 248 00:15:56,340 --> 00:15:58,360 API, they want a smooth wallet. 249 00:15:59,170 --> 00:16:03,150 So, there's a limit to what you really want to spend an energy 250 00:16:03,150 --> 00:16:04,550 on building stuff yourself. 251 00:16:04,590 --> 00:16:11,070 So, what we do is we provide a set of modules that help these companies operate. 252 00:16:11,170 --> 00:16:15,220 For example, it allows you to collect data about everything that's happening. 253 00:16:15,735 --> 00:16:22,045 You can, uh, inspect channels, you can, uh, automate, uh, or 254 00:16:22,055 --> 00:16:23,855 manually open and close channels. 255 00:16:24,575 --> 00:16:28,945 Um, you can also manage multiple nodes, and this is especially when 256 00:16:28,945 --> 00:16:35,375 the, um, as the operation grows, you can see that you have, um, For 257 00:16:35,375 --> 00:16:39,615 example, um, two or four nodes. 258 00:16:40,035 --> 00:16:43,905 And the reason for this is that the traffic is so big that you want to 259 00:16:43,965 --> 00:16:49,065 specialize the node activity and you want to have redundancy in your operation. 260 00:16:50,705 --> 00:16:58,055 So in short, you can use Torque to simplify and use Torque instead of 261 00:16:58,065 --> 00:17:01,505 building your own tooling and simplify your organization in that way. 262 00:17:02,003 --> 00:17:02,503 All right. 263 00:17:03,073 --> 00:17:04,953 Luke, is there anything on your mind? 264 00:17:05,308 --> 00:17:05,888 Well, sure. 265 00:17:05,888 --> 00:17:06,238 Yeah. 266 00:17:06,298 --> 00:17:11,438 So, so I think, um, lightning from the perspective of, yeah. 267 00:17:11,963 --> 00:17:16,993 What it actually does for Bitcoin, I think this is a, this is a bit of a deep thing 268 00:17:17,003 --> 00:17:24,153 because, uh, we, we tend to try to avoid any mention of shitcoins here on the show, 269 00:17:24,153 --> 00:17:30,423 and I'm not going to mention any by name, but the general idea is that there is so 270 00:17:30,423 --> 00:17:34,843 called quote unquote blockchain technology that can beat Bitcoin in the future. 271 00:17:35,593 --> 00:17:39,723 Specifically the level of fast payments and that's kind of the idea here and 272 00:17:39,723 --> 00:17:44,533 so um, maybe something about um, what I'm trying to get at here is do you 273 00:17:44,533 --> 00:17:50,743 have any, any feelings on what is the real value of lightning to bitcoin? 274 00:17:52,143 --> 00:17:53,043 Is it working? 275 00:17:53,043 --> 00:17:59,253 Is it, is it actually helping bitcoin to do what everyone hopes it will do? 276 00:18:00,648 --> 00:18:01,588 Yeah, definitely. 277 00:18:01,588 --> 00:18:04,668 And I've done large payments on Lightning as well. 278 00:18:04,708 --> 00:18:10,428 And especially for something that we use payments for every day, um, 279 00:18:10,478 --> 00:18:15,358 up to a thousand dollars, there's everything, regardless of self 280 00:18:15,358 --> 00:18:16,968 hosted or not works really well. 281 00:18:17,508 --> 00:18:22,988 Um, the, the interesting thing there versus a lot of other coins where 282 00:18:22,988 --> 00:18:26,458 they're talking about transaction volume and speed and all that is that 283 00:18:27,918 --> 00:18:30,718 Lightning settles less than a second. 284 00:18:30,888 --> 00:18:31,378 And. 285 00:18:31,913 --> 00:18:34,173 The, the way it scales is, uh. 286 00:18:36,098 --> 00:18:38,068 is in a way that's super efficient. 287 00:18:38,618 --> 00:18:40,948 So when you look at a lot of other coins, what they're talking 288 00:18:40,948 --> 00:18:45,818 about is that they, um, they increase the number of transactions 289 00:18:45,818 --> 00:18:49,108 possible, um, by a few methods. 290 00:18:49,108 --> 00:18:54,188 One is just increasing the, the speed of the, the block creation, or they 291 00:18:54,188 --> 00:18:56,068 just, uh, increase the block size. 292 00:18:56,148 --> 00:19:00,098 And when you think about that, it It is a solution where they then just 293 00:19:00,258 --> 00:19:02,388 not talk about what happens over time. 294 00:19:02,848 --> 00:19:06,328 There's a lot of different, um, problems that arise from that. 295 00:19:06,348 --> 00:19:09,928 One is just that the block size, um, creates an intense, insanely 296 00:19:10,658 --> 00:19:15,298 large, um, um, blockchain over time. 297 00:19:16,158 --> 00:19:23,438 And that's where I think we in Bitcoin and in Lightning is much more honest about 298 00:19:23,448 --> 00:19:29,258 what are the challenges in Lightning today and what are, how does it scale, um, in 299 00:19:29,258 --> 00:19:34,408 what areas do we need to improve, uh, and all of these things, uh, rather than 300 00:19:34,408 --> 00:19:36,598 just saying, okay, we, we have sold it. 301 00:19:36,608 --> 00:19:38,278 Everything is fantastic. 302 00:19:38,388 --> 00:19:39,768 Uh, it will work forever. 303 00:19:40,428 --> 00:19:43,458 Um, we address sort of these problems and, and work on them. 304 00:19:43,975 --> 00:19:45,985 Okay, we have some big news. 305 00:19:46,355 --> 00:19:48,595 We have a new lead sponsor, AmberApp. 306 00:19:49,435 --> 00:19:52,035 They're the number one exchange in the Southern Hemisphere. 307 00:19:52,345 --> 00:19:55,245 They're rated for the best customer service around and 308 00:19:55,265 --> 00:19:56,985 their global launch is coming. 309 00:19:57,655 --> 00:20:02,165 But the reason we're partnering with AmberApp is because of the people. 310 00:20:02,695 --> 00:20:05,805 If you haven't listened to our episode with Izzy, CEO of AmberApp, 311 00:20:05,865 --> 00:20:07,665 you really should go check it out. 312 00:20:08,355 --> 00:20:12,245 You'll see why it made perfect sense to partner with Izzy and AmberApp. 313 00:20:12,615 --> 00:20:13,085 That's it. 314 00:20:13,305 --> 00:20:15,885 All I'll say for now, you really have to check it out for yourself. 315 00:20:16,495 --> 00:20:19,535 They have loads of great features coming that we're excited to share 316 00:20:19,535 --> 00:20:22,905 with you when the time comes, but for now, just check out the episode, 317 00:20:22,905 --> 00:20:24,295 check out their website, Ampr. 318 00:20:24,295 --> 00:20:24,575 app. 319 00:20:25,085 --> 00:20:27,972 You can see for yourself, why we're thrilled to bring Ampr. 320 00:20:27,972 --> 00:20:29,912 app on as our lead sponsor and partner. 321 00:20:30,342 --> 00:20:31,082 So go check it out. 322 00:20:31,822 --> 00:20:33,390 Next up WasabiWallet. 323 00:20:33,630 --> 00:20:37,080 The privacy by default, open source, non custodial Bitcoin 324 00:20:37,080 --> 00:20:38,790 wallet with CoinJoin built in. 325 00:20:39,370 --> 00:20:43,360 It's the easy to use, comprehensive, affordable way to make your coins private. 326 00:20:43,925 --> 00:20:46,935 And the best part is, they've been making huge improvements to the app. 327 00:20:47,245 --> 00:20:50,195 They're really focusing on the user experience, adding advanced 328 00:20:50,305 --> 00:20:52,855 features for power users, they just keep getting better. 329 00:20:53,375 --> 00:20:56,855 You send your coins to your Wasabi wallet, and they get combined with loads of 330 00:20:56,855 --> 00:21:00,975 other coins using the Wabi Sabi protocol, so they're private on the other end. 331 00:21:01,515 --> 00:21:05,025 Your tracks are covered so you can work on expanding your Freedom Footprint 332 00:21:05,175 --> 00:21:06,855 without worrying about your privacy. 333 00:21:07,735 --> 00:21:08,645 So, check out wasabiwallet. 334 00:21:08,645 --> 00:21:11,815 io and download Wasabi today. 335 00:21:12,761 --> 00:21:15,031 So how did you discover Bitcoin? 336 00:21:15,041 --> 00:21:17,421 Like what was your orange pilling journey? 337 00:21:17,421 --> 00:21:20,001 Like when, when did you get orange pilled and how? 338 00:21:20,928 --> 00:21:21,888 Yeah, it's interesting. 339 00:21:21,888 --> 00:21:26,748 I, I went through a route I think a lot of Bitcoins do with sort of the Bitcoin route 340 00:21:27,378 --> 00:21:34,478 where, um, I, I got into it, um, basically because I was interested in currency 341 00:21:34,483 --> 00:21:39,878 trading originally and discovered that maybe there's a interesting way to trade. 342 00:21:40,488 --> 00:21:45,798 And make money, uh, through arbitrage or momentum trading, uh, with, uh, bots. 343 00:21:46,478 --> 00:21:50,738 So I started playing around with that, a ton of different coins and got swept 344 00:21:50,738 --> 00:21:53,468 up in all that in 2017 especially. 345 00:21:54,058 --> 00:21:56,068 And, uh, went through the entire crash. 346 00:21:56,278 --> 00:22:00,298 And I think there's a small percentage each time who then's like what happened 347 00:22:00,448 --> 00:22:05,248 and realize that, oh, I should just bin at Bitcoin the entire time and get into that. 348 00:22:05,248 --> 00:22:08,488 And then I started really learning how Bitcoin converts, how. 349 00:22:09,253 --> 00:22:11,663 When I discovered Lightning, it was like, okay, game over. 350 00:22:11,723 --> 00:22:13,023 The other stuff is just BS. 351 00:22:13,193 --> 00:22:14,533 Uh, let's dive into this. 352 00:22:15,213 --> 00:22:19,143 Uh, and I've been working, um, really diving into Lightning after that. 353 00:22:20,653 --> 00:22:25,513 Um, where is, where are you on the, uh, sound money journey, like on, 354 00:22:25,513 --> 00:22:29,983 on the ethos of Bitcoin journey and the like, uh, on the, on the more 355 00:22:29,983 --> 00:22:32,983 philosophical prax logical side? 356 00:22:32,983 --> 00:22:37,393 Like what, what have you views on, uh, hyper colonization, for instance? 357 00:22:37,393 --> 00:22:39,913 Do you think that's a likely scenario? 358 00:22:39,913 --> 00:22:43,723 And, uh, if so, when and what does, what does it mean to you? 359 00:22:45,513 --> 00:22:47,393 Yeah, it's a very interesting topic. 360 00:22:47,493 --> 00:22:52,713 I think, I think I might be a bit unconventional Bitcoiner in that area. 361 00:22:52,723 --> 00:22:53,313 I think. 362 00:22:54,288 --> 00:22:58,678 If we see hyperbitcoinization in next year, then the world is in so much 363 00:22:58,678 --> 00:23:02,548 trouble that it's time to get your, your shotgun and guard your door. 364 00:23:03,728 --> 00:23:04,578 And the reason is 365 00:23:04,953 --> 00:23:05,763 that the case? 366 00:23:05,763 --> 00:23:10,323 Uh, if, if we're, if we don't get into hyper ization also though, 367 00:23:11,078 --> 00:23:13,298 yeah, I think there's going to be suffering either way. 368 00:23:13,518 --> 00:23:14,158 That's my point. 369 00:23:14,228 --> 00:23:21,303 I think where, um, We're in such a trouble, we're in such big trouble 370 00:23:21,333 --> 00:23:25,673 with the debt that we're in that there is no smooth way out of it. 371 00:23:26,343 --> 00:23:30,903 So essentially, if you stop all lending, and you go into hyperbitcoinization, 372 00:23:30,913 --> 00:23:37,373 and everybody just uses that, we're quickly into a situation where, um, 373 00:23:37,383 --> 00:23:42,637 so if everybody switches over to, um, to Bitcoin today, we're getting into a 374 00:23:42,637 --> 00:23:48,662 situation where I think the economy is going to go through a heavy, heavy crash. 375 00:23:48,662 --> 00:23:57,022 So even the housing market, for example, so I hope we transition 376 00:23:57,022 --> 00:23:58,392 there a bit more peacefully. 377 00:23:59,692 --> 00:24:03,532 yeah, you're, uh, I'm guessing your, your thoughts and your, um, 378 00:24:03,572 --> 00:24:05,412 idea on it is, is a bit different. 379 00:24:05,422 --> 00:24:06,982 And this is something I love to discuss. 380 00:24:07,887 --> 00:24:10,537 The different points of view in this, and I'm guessing that's what you've 381 00:24:10,537 --> 00:24:12,327 been doing a lot on the show so far. 382 00:24:12,518 --> 00:24:12,728 Yeah. 383 00:24:12,733 --> 00:24:15,398 Well, we're, we're, we're sort of on the philosophical side. 384 00:24:15,398 --> 00:24:19,658 I mean, we, we try to envision what, what, what this means and what it 385 00:24:19,663 --> 00:24:25,433 is and, uh, where, where the vectors are pointing and, uh, I always like 386 00:24:25,433 --> 00:24:30,173 to, to like, to try to extrapolate, extrapolate the, uh, thought vector as 387 00:24:30,173 --> 00:24:35,083 far ahead into the future and possible as possible and see, see where I end up. 388 00:24:35,088 --> 00:24:40,483 And it's, it's kind of hard to see anything but hyper ization happening 389 00:24:40,483 --> 00:24:42,493 given that everything else is crashing. 390 00:24:43,063 --> 00:24:45,703 Um, I mean, where else? 391 00:24:46,498 --> 00:24:47,838 Are the money supposed to go? 392 00:24:47,838 --> 00:24:55,318 I just don't see how in a, in a hyper interneted world that the, the, the 393 00:24:55,318 --> 00:24:59,678 money could go anywhere else than Bitcoin because it's the only stable thing left. 394 00:25:00,555 --> 00:25:00,875 Yeah. 395 00:25:00,875 --> 00:25:03,255 And that's a, that's a very good point. 396 00:25:03,295 --> 00:25:07,925 Um, most likely it becomes, um, over time it becomes the base, 397 00:25:08,155 --> 00:25:13,495 uh, value where we store value and perhaps also settle value across, 398 00:25:13,765 --> 00:25:16,275 uh, countries and larger operations. 399 00:25:17,085 --> 00:25:18,495 Um, definitely. 400 00:25:18,635 --> 00:25:25,000 Um, I guess it depends a bit on what, what you mean with hyperbitcoinization is if 401 00:25:25,300 --> 00:25:30,100 absolutely every other currency becomes Bitcoin and we only transact in Bitcoin, 402 00:25:30,590 --> 00:25:36,510 uh, and we eliminate all debt, that is, um, that is a different scenarios scenario 403 00:25:36,540 --> 00:25:41,690 than, for example, we don't limit debt and we, um, we have some other, uh, credit 404 00:25:41,700 --> 00:25:48,057 based systems around things, uh, to, um, to use as, um, um, Uh, in some cases, 405 00:25:48,177 --> 00:25:54,387 efficiency gains, but, um, yeah, it's, it's just, I feel like the world is just 406 00:25:54,477 --> 00:26:01,477 so far out of balance today that how that is used around the world is quite crazy. 407 00:26:02,017 --> 00:26:03,877 Um, but then again, I'm not an economic, 408 00:26:04,697 --> 00:26:09,292 no, uh, I mean, um, Uh, there can still be debt on a, on a 409 00:26:09,292 --> 00:26:10,572 Bitcoin standard, of course. 410 00:26:10,652 --> 00:26:16,652 Uh, it's just that the interest rates will better reflect what the lender and 411 00:26:16,652 --> 00:26:20,632 the, and the receiver actually agree upon. 412 00:26:20,722 --> 00:26:23,452 And we won't have these artificial things. 413 00:26:23,832 --> 00:26:27,452 I mean, there's, there's always a market for lower interest rates. 414 00:26:27,762 --> 00:26:33,337 I mean, It's basically a bet on, on the future, like, it's better to 415 00:26:33,337 --> 00:26:34,797 have money now than in the future. 416 00:26:34,827 --> 00:26:36,547 So, so that's where interest comes from. 417 00:26:36,547 --> 00:26:41,067 It's just that, and the free market should be able to, to figure out 418 00:26:41,067 --> 00:26:44,037 the correct interest rate by itself. 419 00:26:44,037 --> 00:26:48,007 It's just that it's been so manipulated at this point that it's not. 420 00:26:48,237 --> 00:26:52,127 It's just weird, like negative interest rates, for instance, it should make 421 00:26:52,137 --> 00:26:57,707 everyone like buy that shotgun and hide up in a cabin somewhere or leave the country 422 00:26:57,707 --> 00:27:00,977 because it's, it's, uh, just not possible. 423 00:27:01,617 --> 00:27:05,807 Uh, that word in itself, in my mind, should, should make people 424 00:27:07,017 --> 00:27:10,987 really scared because that's like the ultimate testament to that. 425 00:27:11,077 --> 00:27:12,107 You're being played. 426 00:27:12,317 --> 00:27:16,907 You're, you're being, you're, you're caught in a system that is using you. 427 00:27:17,627 --> 00:27:22,857 yeah, it's, um, it's definitely not as straightforward anymore as it 428 00:27:22,867 --> 00:27:25,677 was, uh, once, uh, once upon a time. 429 00:27:28,102 --> 00:27:34,612 Yeah, I, I think Bitcoin is a tool that can be used for a lot of good, it can be 430 00:27:34,612 --> 00:27:40,162 used in, uh, to fix a lot of systems, but there's another side of it, which I think 431 00:27:40,162 --> 00:27:43,962 a lot of Bitcoiners don't talk too much about, and that basically is the power 432 00:27:43,962 --> 00:27:49,882 of money in the, in the direct sense, uh, where if you have a lot of money, even 433 00:27:49,882 --> 00:27:55,837 if you have a lot of Bitcoin, you can use that as a tool to influence others to do 434 00:27:55,837 --> 00:27:57,777 things they basically don't want to do. 435 00:27:58,507 --> 00:28:02,597 Um, so of course, just doing work is one thing, but you mostly are happy 436 00:28:02,637 --> 00:28:04,117 to do work in order to get paid. 437 00:28:04,127 --> 00:28:06,967 But there's situation where you can pressure people to the point 438 00:28:06,977 --> 00:28:08,507 where, yeah, they're still working. 439 00:28:08,617 --> 00:28:09,877 They're still getting a salary. 440 00:28:10,392 --> 00:28:13,962 But that's the only option they have and the salary is not enough to live off. 441 00:28:14,292 --> 00:28:16,692 We don't really get rid of that problem still with Bitcoin. 442 00:28:17,232 --> 00:28:24,092 There's still going to be massive, massive, um, difference in, um, 443 00:28:25,022 --> 00:28:28,622 uh, in income around the world and, and power through that. 444 00:28:29,472 --> 00:28:32,512 And I think that's a problem that we don't address with Bitcoin and that we 445 00:28:32,642 --> 00:28:37,642 should be very aware of both in society today and in the future Bitcoin world. 446 00:28:39,867 --> 00:28:41,427 So, how is the climate at TORC? 447 00:28:41,437 --> 00:28:45,287 Like, do you discuss these philosophical stuff in the office, or 448 00:28:45,517 --> 00:28:47,127 wherever, if you even have an office? 449 00:28:47,127 --> 00:28:52,337 I guess you're mostly online, but do you discuss these things, 450 00:28:52,337 --> 00:28:55,497 or like, what's going on there? 451 00:28:56,412 --> 00:29:01,632 Yeah, um, we, we do once in a while, but we're also very tech focused, 452 00:29:01,802 --> 00:29:06,312 uh, and love sort of diving into how Lightning works and what it does. 453 00:29:06,992 --> 00:29:10,042 Um, but we certainly discuss it once in a while. 454 00:29:10,512 --> 00:29:12,652 Um, but yeah, we don't have a, a office. 455 00:29:12,652 --> 00:29:16,522 We're working completely remote, um, which changes the dynamic a bit, I guess. 456 00:29:17,218 --> 00:29:21,668 Yeah, from your accent, you're, you're from, uh, the space cat planet, right? 457 00:29:21,748 --> 00:29:23,568 Like, uh, but, but you're not an astronaut. 458 00:29:23,608 --> 00:29:25,808 So, so, uh, it must be Norway. 459 00:29:26,698 --> 00:29:27,498 Yeah, definitely. 460 00:29:27,698 --> 00:29:31,618 One of the guys in the team, they usually have like a space background. 461 00:29:31,798 --> 00:29:33,758 So bit in space. 462 00:29:34,530 --> 00:29:35,010 There you go. 463 00:29:35,280 --> 00:29:39,060 How is everything going in Norway, by the way, if that's 464 00:29:39,060 --> 00:29:40,410 where you're actually based? 465 00:29:40,420 --> 00:29:43,770 Because I mean, you can't actually tell by where someone is from 466 00:29:43,780 --> 00:29:45,080 originally where they actually are. 467 00:29:45,080 --> 00:29:45,630 But anyway, 468 00:29:46,265 --> 00:29:50,625 Yeah, no, I, uh, I'm born and raised in Oslo and still live in Oslo. 469 00:29:50,675 --> 00:29:52,705 So I never got out anywhere, I guess. 470 00:29:53,575 --> 00:29:54,425 Traveled a bit though. 471 00:29:54,475 --> 00:29:55,005 So that's good. 472 00:29:55,405 --> 00:30:00,735 But, uh, um, here, uh, I mean, that's, that's one of the things where I'm. 473 00:30:01,232 --> 00:30:07,759 not too interested in, I guess, in the politics, uh, in Norway and how things 474 00:30:07,769 --> 00:30:12,859 are evolving there and a bit of that is that it's so stable, so it might be very 475 00:30:12,859 --> 00:30:17,839 dark clouds on the horizon, but for, I guess, most people living in Norway, 476 00:30:18,429 --> 00:30:24,624 the so Economic situation is, is quite stable, uh, prices are, of course, going 477 00:30:24,624 --> 00:30:30,964 up, uh, there is inflation, um, there is, of course, one of the only ways to 478 00:30:30,964 --> 00:30:35,654 get out of the, the inflation we are in is that the regular people suffer. 479 00:30:36,004 --> 00:30:39,034 And I think people are starting to notice that, that they have less 480 00:30:39,064 --> 00:30:43,214 money, prices on everything is going up, especially the stuff that... 481 00:30:43,539 --> 00:30:47,329 isn't in the inflation numbers, like just groceries, right? 482 00:30:47,939 --> 00:30:51,509 Um, so, um, it's going to be interesting in the next few 483 00:30:51,519 --> 00:30:55,139 years when this sort of starts to stress the economy more and more. 484 00:30:55,605 --> 00:30:58,580 Yeah, the same thing is happening in Sweden, where the... 485 00:30:58,700 --> 00:31:06,120 The both the Kronos are losing value fast and it's pretty sad to see because 486 00:31:06,120 --> 00:31:11,090 most of the populations don't seem to realize what's going on, which is often 487 00:31:11,090 --> 00:31:13,490 the case when inflation hits hard. 488 00:31:14,190 --> 00:31:18,860 No one seems to be able to pierce the veil and see what's going on. 489 00:31:18,950 --> 00:31:23,050 But you know, the pay no attention to the men behind the curtain type thing. 490 00:31:23,755 --> 00:31:27,295 Uh, they're waving with one hand to make you not focus on the other. 491 00:31:27,925 --> 00:31:32,115 Um, do, do you know our friend Rune Østgaard by, by any chance? 492 00:31:32,415 --> 00:31:37,645 Another Norwegian, uh, recently came out with a book called Fraud Coin. 493 00:31:39,445 --> 00:31:41,975 Ah, yeah, yeah, I listened to his presentation on one 494 00:31:41,975 --> 00:31:44,135 of the local, um, meetups. 495 00:31:44,795 --> 00:31:46,965 Um, that was, that was great. 496 00:31:48,205 --> 00:31:52,545 Yeah, he has some great takes on, uh, on, uh, the situation in Norway 497 00:31:52,545 --> 00:31:56,975 and Norwegian politics is, uh, very active on Twitter and, uh, everyone 498 00:31:56,975 --> 00:31:58,335 should follow Rune, he's great. 499 00:31:59,635 --> 00:32:04,405 an aggressive Trønders separatist, which is interesting, but he's a fun guy. 500 00:32:04,955 --> 00:32:05,905 An aggressive what? 501 00:32:07,585 --> 00:32:10,475 He's advocated for the independence of Trøndelag. 502 00:32:10,475 --> 00:32:13,465 I don't, I don't know how serious he's actually being, but yeah. 503 00:32:13,815 --> 00:32:16,735 Yeah, I think that's a bit, um, humor in there. 504 00:32:17,665 --> 00:32:22,595 Yeah, uh, then again, um, it's the separation, the separation of 505 00:32:22,605 --> 00:32:25,635 money and state is the separation of everyone and state in the end. 506 00:32:25,645 --> 00:32:29,945 So like, so, so, uh, the smaller, the better. 507 00:32:30,065 --> 00:32:34,635 Like, uh, As long as we can still trade between the cantons, 508 00:32:34,935 --> 00:32:36,475 uh, we're fine, I guess. 509 00:32:38,010 --> 00:32:40,150 Every single farm out there is by zone. 510 00:32:41,730 --> 00:32:47,240 There's balance in these things again, I think, but it's, um, it's interesting 511 00:32:47,240 --> 00:32:52,980 to see, uh, that effect in, in the difference between the U S and Norway and, 512 00:32:52,990 --> 00:32:55,360 um, different how the starting point is. 513 00:32:57,925 --> 00:33:03,585 And I think the, um, the effect that you talked about earlier, people not 514 00:33:03,615 --> 00:33:07,935 noticing, I think this is something that's a bit scary for Norway and, uh, 515 00:33:07,945 --> 00:33:12,825 all countries basically is that some of these effects are, they're coming 516 00:33:12,845 --> 00:33:14,805 over time and they're quite subtle. 517 00:33:15,015 --> 00:33:16,105 They're hard to understand. 518 00:33:16,105 --> 00:33:19,005 And I think a lot of people are getting more and more frustrated. 519 00:33:19,400 --> 00:33:21,700 Because they feel like they're getting screwed in some way. 520 00:33:21,710 --> 00:33:25,220 They don't know the source of it and they start to blame everything 521 00:33:25,230 --> 00:33:29,880 around them in different directions and just frustration, uh, increases. 522 00:33:30,060 --> 00:33:36,300 Um, I think this is a bit behind the political, um, climate in, in the US. 523 00:33:36,490 --> 00:33:42,230 Uh, I'm not into politics, uh, the US, uh, at a level where I should discuss this, 524 00:33:42,270 --> 00:33:47,980 but it feels a bit like they're so much further ahead in that frustration than 525 00:33:47,990 --> 00:33:49,600 many other countries are at this point. 526 00:33:50,059 --> 00:33:54,449 Yeah, uh, given the video clips we see on social media over here 527 00:33:54,449 --> 00:33:58,879 about, uh, grocery prices being completely bonkers over there. 528 00:33:59,299 --> 00:34:02,989 But, uh, yeah, we're, we're headed, we're on the same path. 529 00:34:03,169 --> 00:34:05,349 And, uh, yeah, people should know this. 530 00:34:05,349 --> 00:34:07,239 Inflation is not a natural thing. 531 00:34:07,359 --> 00:34:13,049 It, it comes from some people in society being allowed to 532 00:34:13,049 --> 00:34:17,039 counterfeit money and others, while others don't have that privilege. 533 00:34:17,099 --> 00:34:18,329 That's where it comes from. 534 00:34:18,389 --> 00:34:21,179 That's the only reason that prices are going up and not down. 535 00:34:21,929 --> 00:34:23,699 And inflation is wage deflation. 536 00:34:23,699 --> 00:34:27,299 So what it does is just making everyone poorer over time. 537 00:34:27,449 --> 00:34:31,859 You, you're not getting a 5% raise a year, you're, you're, you're losing 5% 538 00:34:31,859 --> 00:34:33,659 per year because the inflation is 10%. 539 00:34:33,664 --> 00:34:37,579 So, like, and, and the real inflation is even higher than that because they, 540 00:34:37,909 --> 00:34:43,379 in this C P I basket, they don't, they don't take account for house, house 541 00:34:43,379 --> 00:34:45,599 prices and the stock market and so on. 542 00:34:45,604 --> 00:34:49,349 So, uh, it's, it's just a complete joke in the end. 543 00:34:49,559 --> 00:34:50,639 And the joke on you. 544 00:34:51,064 --> 00:34:53,684 So, get out, get some 545 00:34:53,799 --> 00:34:54,409 yeah, I mean, 546 00:34:54,994 --> 00:34:55,384 brush your 547 00:34:55,489 --> 00:35:00,129 yeah, yeah, yeah, actually, it's, uh, it's a really good 548 00:35:00,149 --> 00:35:01,399 argument to get into Bitcoin. 549 00:35:01,399 --> 00:35:03,629 I guess that's why everybody's talking about it. 550 00:35:04,319 --> 00:35:07,649 Um, and also like at the end of the day, it's the people who don't have 551 00:35:07,649 --> 00:35:12,704 an option and are just wage, um, Uh, getting a wage paycheck, those are 552 00:35:12,704 --> 00:35:16,574 the guys who are suffering in order to end massively increasing inflation, 553 00:35:17,154 --> 00:35:21,444 which, uh, we are in a, in a situation where you have a lot higher inflation 554 00:35:21,444 --> 00:35:23,804 than normal all around the world. 555 00:35:24,474 --> 00:35:29,864 Um, so yeah, it's, I think my, uh, outlook on that is a bit 556 00:35:30,074 --> 00:35:32,114 dark and pessimistic, I guess. 557 00:35:32,464 --> 00:35:33,984 Normal people are going to suffer. 558 00:35:34,646 --> 00:35:38,666 The show is also sponsored by Orange Pill App, the Bitcoin only social network where 559 00:35:38,666 --> 00:35:40,326 you can stack friends who stack sats. 560 00:35:40,926 --> 00:35:43,786 You can connect with your favorite Bitcoiners on the app, make local 561 00:35:43,786 --> 00:35:46,836 connections, and even connect with Bitcoiners around the world. 562 00:35:47,386 --> 00:35:50,886 You can see what's going on in your area and organize and attend local events. 563 00:35:51,327 --> 00:35:54,077 I've been to multiple events organized on Orange Pill App and they brought 564 00:35:54,077 --> 00:35:56,117 Bitcoiners together from all over. 565 00:35:56,596 --> 00:35:59,806 And now, with group chat, it's easier than ever to stay in touch 566 00:35:59,806 --> 00:36:01,126 with all your Bitcoin friends. 567 00:36:01,535 --> 00:36:03,725 The best part is you know it's high signal. 568 00:36:03,815 --> 00:36:06,805 There's no spam on OrangePillApp because everyone pays to be there. 569 00:36:07,015 --> 00:36:10,350 So download OrangePillApp on Apple or Android and start building 570 00:36:10,370 --> 00:36:11,670 your local network of Bitcoiners. 571 00:36:12,488 --> 00:36:14,088 Next up, The Bitcoin Way. 572 00:36:14,618 --> 00:36:17,928 Their mission is to onboard, educate, and remove barriers to 573 00:36:17,928 --> 00:36:19,538 taking self custody of your bitcoin. 574 00:36:20,088 --> 00:36:24,398 They cover everything from cold wallets to nodes, no KYC bitcoin purchases, 575 00:36:24,448 --> 00:36:26,878 inheritance planning, payments, and more. 576 00:36:27,408 --> 00:36:30,218 Whether you're new to bitcoin or you're an experienced bitcoiner looking to 577 00:36:30,228 --> 00:36:34,098 expand your freedom footprint, Or you know someone who this sounds perfect for? 578 00:36:34,458 --> 00:36:36,378 The Bitcoin Way has something for you. 579 00:36:37,018 --> 00:36:40,538 They have a skilled team, well versed in the Bitcoin space, and their goal is to 580 00:36:40,538 --> 00:36:44,428 make all the complexities of Bitcoin as straightforward as possible for everyone. 581 00:36:44,988 --> 00:36:47,488 And the best part is you can get started with a free 30 582 00:36:47,488 --> 00:36:48,668 minute call with their team. 583 00:36:49,188 --> 00:36:50,728 Go to thebitcoinway. 584 00:36:50,748 --> 00:36:52,958 com slash contact for more info. 585 00:36:53,559 --> 00:36:55,459 Our newest sponsor is Geyser. 586 00:36:55,789 --> 00:36:58,679 They are the portal to the creator economy on Bitcoin. 587 00:36:59,379 --> 00:37:03,099 On Geyser, creators can monetize their work through their communities 588 00:37:03,129 --> 00:37:04,749 in a social and engaging way. 589 00:37:05,129 --> 00:37:07,919 And supporters can send sats to their favorite projects. 590 00:37:08,366 --> 00:37:11,666 Geyser has also recently integrated with Zapps and Podcasting 2. 591 00:37:11,666 --> 00:37:12,126 0. 592 00:37:12,476 --> 00:37:16,026 So every Zapp sent to a Geyser address shows up on the Geyser page. 593 00:37:16,786 --> 00:37:18,246 We have a Geyser fund ourselves. 594 00:37:18,256 --> 00:37:20,416 It's the best way to support our show directly with Bitcoin. 595 00:37:21,426 --> 00:37:25,286 So whether you're a creator or a supporter, check out geyser at geyser. 596 00:37:25,286 --> 00:37:26,186 fund today. 597 00:37:26,553 --> 00:37:28,013 How about remittances? 598 00:37:28,063 --> 00:37:33,483 Is that a, uh, like, Lightning is always, uh, um, quite often, uh, advertised 599 00:37:33,483 --> 00:37:37,903 as being the, the, the real killer app of Lightning being remittances 600 00:37:37,903 --> 00:37:42,483 between countries, like, um, or at least that's a, a major use case. 601 00:37:43,003 --> 00:37:48,653 And I don't know how much of the network you actually monitor at TORC and like 602 00:37:48,803 --> 00:37:52,613 what you, what you see and what you don't see, but like, do you think there's, 603 00:37:53,093 --> 00:38:00,133 there are remittances being sent from Norway, for instance, to wherever refugees 604 00:38:00,133 --> 00:38:03,453 come from, like Syria and other places? 605 00:38:03,733 --> 00:38:05,343 Do you think there's any of that going on? 606 00:38:06,573 --> 00:38:10,013 So, um, that's also a distinction in, in Troy Cooper. 607 00:38:10,403 --> 00:38:14,083 The tooling we're building is focused on the operator operating, 608 00:38:14,203 --> 00:38:15,483 uh, operating their node. 609 00:38:15,813 --> 00:38:18,493 So they're actually not sending any data to us, and we're not 610 00:38:18,543 --> 00:38:23,173 analyzing either private data or public data, so we can't see these, 611 00:38:23,313 --> 00:38:25,323 uh, patterns directly in any way. 612 00:38:25,473 --> 00:38:29,918 All we can do is analyze the public, um, Uh, graph, the lightning graph, 613 00:38:29,928 --> 00:38:33,898 which means which channels, which nodes have chance with who, where 614 00:38:33,958 --> 00:38:37,058 liquidity is allocated and which channels are closing and opening. 615 00:38:37,922 --> 00:38:43,122 I mean, do you think there's that there are remittances sent by a 616 00:38:43,122 --> 00:38:48,022 lightning from the Scandinavian countries to like Ukraine and Syria 617 00:38:48,022 --> 00:38:50,172 and places like that at this moment? 618 00:38:50,682 --> 00:38:54,042 Or do you think that's just a fantasy thing at this point? 619 00:38:54,896 --> 00:38:56,396 I'm not sure in that direction. 620 00:38:56,396 --> 00:39:01,766 I know that lightning has huge benefits in countries where remittances are very, 621 00:39:01,766 --> 00:39:06,896 very expensive or slow, or where large parts of population don't have access to 622 00:39:06,896 --> 00:39:11,616 banking, um, digitally or even close by. 623 00:39:11,736 --> 00:39:16,146 Uh, some people have to travel quite a distance in order to reach a place that 624 00:39:16,146 --> 00:39:20,976 can help them, like Western Union, that can help them transact, uh, or get, um, 625 00:39:20,976 --> 00:39:23,436 money abroad or, uh, send money abroad. 626 00:39:24,416 --> 00:39:28,546 Um, then they additionally take a 10 percent charge or even much higher 627 00:39:28,546 --> 00:39:30,656 sometimes, uh, on their transaction. 628 00:39:31,596 --> 00:39:34,886 Um, and in those cases, Lightning has a huge benefit and is 629 00:39:34,936 --> 00:39:36,876 being used, uh, quite a bit. 630 00:39:37,516 --> 00:39:41,536 Um, so I think we, we need to see more of it and we need to see 631 00:39:41,536 --> 00:39:43,575 a dynamic where there are more. 632 00:39:43,726 --> 00:39:45,346 People exchanging directly. 633 00:39:45,556 --> 00:39:49,356 We need more apps that help people exchange in and out of their native 634 00:39:49,356 --> 00:39:52,416 currency very quickly in order to see that effect in that use case. 635 00:39:54,576 --> 00:39:58,936 Because for a lot of these people, they can't risk being in Bitcoin right now. 636 00:39:58,956 --> 00:40:02,616 They can't just instantly switch to just using Bitcoin because 637 00:40:03,616 --> 00:40:06,896 they have to live in a world where other people aren't using it. 638 00:40:07,866 --> 00:40:11,576 So there is a bit of cold start problem with Bitcoin in a lot of places. 639 00:40:12,284 --> 00:40:19,545 This is such a, uh, a sad part because, uh, yeah, it's like I, I, um, I see a, a 640 00:40:19,604 --> 00:40:21,884 bitcoin, a t m in a mall, for instance. 641 00:40:22,474 --> 00:40:26,764 Uh, and I see isn't this wonderful that you can just, uh, go there and get some, 642 00:40:27,404 --> 00:40:30,044 uh, euros, k y c free from a machine? 643 00:40:30,514 --> 00:40:35,799 Uh, But when you think one step further about that machine, it's, it's only 644 00:40:35,799 --> 00:40:39,739 a matter of time till all the vendors inside the mall realize that people don't 645 00:40:39,739 --> 00:40:41,149 even have to go through the machine. 646 00:40:41,159 --> 00:40:43,859 They could just accept Bitcoin payments directly. 647 00:40:44,429 --> 00:40:48,789 And, uh, I guess it's the same with remittances that people think 648 00:40:48,789 --> 00:40:51,749 that they need to exchange the Bitcoin for some local shitcoin, 649 00:40:52,549 --> 00:40:54,129 but when really they don't. 650 00:40:54,624 --> 00:40:55,294 They don't have to do that. 651 00:40:55,294 --> 00:40:59,274 They could just start this underground economy in their own circles. 652 00:40:59,304 --> 00:41:04,144 And that shows you the importance of orange pilling the people around your 653 00:41:04,154 --> 00:41:07,724 community to make this happen locally. 654 00:41:08,354 --> 00:41:11,724 It's not going to happen by itself. 655 00:41:11,724 --> 00:41:14,864 Well, it is, but it's going to go a lot faster when people 656 00:41:14,864 --> 00:41:16,864 talk to one another about it. 657 00:41:17,454 --> 00:41:22,764 Yeah, I also think like, as the size of the market cap of Bitcoin 658 00:41:22,774 --> 00:41:25,204 grows, we see that stabilize. 659 00:41:26,024 --> 00:41:31,884 We see also during the winter that the value of Bitcoins stabilize quite a bit. 660 00:41:32,424 --> 00:41:36,794 They have some of the sudden moves once in a while, but that helps in general, people 661 00:41:36,794 --> 00:41:40,274 just staying within the Bitcoin currency. 662 00:41:42,144 --> 00:41:46,224 But of course, I think having for a lot of merchants having that option where 663 00:41:46,224 --> 00:41:50,374 they don't even think about them using Bitcoin for quite some time, I think 664 00:41:50,384 --> 00:41:54,754 can actually be a benefit because then people slowly transition into Bitcoin. 665 00:41:55,884 --> 00:41:59,034 And we managed to bring the whole world on board instead of creating this sort 666 00:41:59,034 --> 00:42:01,784 of almost division where people are like, we're only going to use Bitcoin and 667 00:42:01,934 --> 00:42:03,364 others like we're never going to touch it. 668 00:42:04,404 --> 00:42:05,904 That's not the ideal situation. 669 00:42:05,914 --> 00:42:08,174 We should have this transition where. 670 00:42:08,454 --> 00:42:12,164 The people who only want to use Bitcoin can actually use it everywhere, regardless 671 00:42:12,204 --> 00:42:14,004 of other people adopting it or not. 672 00:42:14,024 --> 00:42:17,244 And that way we get much more natural adoption, I think. 673 00:42:17,274 --> 00:42:22,864 Um, so I'm always torn between this sort of idealistic thinking and ideal world 674 00:42:22,884 --> 00:42:25,774 and, and trying to think about how. 675 00:42:26,149 --> 00:42:31,429 Perhaps adoption can happen, and I think we as Bitcoiners have to compromise a 676 00:42:31,439 --> 00:42:35,199 bit with the rest of the world in terms of driving adoption without compromising 677 00:42:35,199 --> 00:42:39,619 on how Bitcoin works and how we're, where we're going to end up in the end. 678 00:42:40,487 --> 00:42:46,807 Yeah, to me, this is definitely a transition phase where these solutions 679 00:42:47,117 --> 00:42:52,497 between all the currencies are happening, because it's sort of like those stationary 680 00:42:52,497 --> 00:42:59,487 computers that had two DVD slots, one for burning a DVD and one for reading one. 681 00:43:00,017 --> 00:43:02,477 And you could just copy movies that way. 682 00:43:03,277 --> 00:43:07,057 When the data is all there, you can just send it to someone. 683 00:43:07,397 --> 00:43:11,387 And like, it's, uh, maybe that's a bad analogy, but, but there are lots of 684 00:43:11,387 --> 00:43:18,167 examples of, uh, of this, like phone companies trying to hinder IP telephony 685 00:43:18,167 --> 00:43:23,037 and, and stuff like that, like, uh, uh, sooner or later people will realize 686 00:43:23,077 --> 00:43:27,857 that the, uh, the network is the network and you don't need the other 687 00:43:27,857 --> 00:43:29,717 networks for the network to function. 688 00:43:31,297 --> 00:43:32,247 Exactly, yeah. 689 00:43:32,817 --> 00:43:37,497 I mean, it's, um, it's always a mix between technology limitations in 690 00:43:37,527 --> 00:43:42,237 technology and limitations in what people understand and can adopt. 691 00:43:43,037 --> 00:43:49,757 Um, I think Bitcoin has a bigger problem with, um, with how merchants and how 692 00:43:49,787 --> 00:43:51,967 people relate and think about it. 693 00:43:53,217 --> 00:43:57,647 And I think we need companies who think much more about the commerce 694 00:43:57,697 --> 00:44:01,977 side than perhaps the ideal state of people holding Bitcoin in their wallet. 695 00:44:02,507 --> 00:44:10,107 I think the ideal solution for adoption is the case where I can go with my app 696 00:44:10,107 --> 00:44:16,467 of choice and pay for whatever in a different country by just scanning a QR 697 00:44:16,527 --> 00:44:21,647 code or tapping the phone to whatever terminal that already exists in that shop. 698 00:44:22,277 --> 00:44:26,297 Um, and when I do that, it exchanges from my Norwegian banking account 699 00:44:26,317 --> 00:44:30,727 into Bitcoin over to the merchants and perhaps back into their currency. 700 00:44:31,257 --> 00:44:35,927 Because having that choice, um, makes it possible for me to choose either. 701 00:44:36,142 --> 00:44:40,852 Loading my shitcoin, local shitcoins into Bitcoin, transacting that 702 00:44:40,852 --> 00:44:45,602 way, or just having that super seamless transition when I need it. 703 00:44:46,412 --> 00:44:49,842 So there is no disruption or extra steps in order to pay. 704 00:44:51,032 --> 00:44:56,312 That's for at least the, the sort of Europe and US and these areas. 705 00:44:56,722 --> 00:45:00,762 In other countries that have a much, much bigger problem with either their financial 706 00:45:00,782 --> 00:45:07,737 system or Um, their local, uh, coins, uh, deflating at an even higher rate. 707 00:45:08,247 --> 00:45:10,197 Um, it's different again. 708 00:45:10,297 --> 00:45:12,967 I think the willingness to hold Bitcoin might be much, much higher. 709 00:45:13,487 --> 00:45:17,993 It's funny that we're seeing these days, um, like a whole 710 00:45:18,003 --> 00:45:23,523 thing about what is really Going on with with Bitcoin adoption. 711 00:45:23,543 --> 00:45:28,163 And right now there's a little bit of Twitter drama going on where where 712 00:45:28,213 --> 00:45:35,133 our friends Joe Nakamoto and Paco de la India are, are going around the 713 00:45:35,133 --> 00:45:41,998 world and showing Bitcoin adoption and, and um, Well, the showing 714 00:45:41,998 --> 00:45:45,418 it and also, you know, trying to increase it and all that good stuff. 715 00:45:45,878 --> 00:45:48,778 Um, and there's, there's some smooth brains out there. 716 00:45:48,778 --> 00:45:53,718 I won't say who they are, who, who are, uh, saying that, you know, that 717 00:45:53,738 --> 00:45:58,938 like, uh, if a merchant allows Bitcoin payments and such a small percentage of 718 00:45:58,938 --> 00:46:03,148 their, their payments are in Bitcoin, well, then what's the value to them 719 00:46:03,328 --> 00:46:06,012 and all this, but the, I don't know. 720 00:46:06,283 --> 00:46:13,833 On the ground of it all is that just by convincing merchants to take it and seeing 721 00:46:13,833 --> 00:46:19,783 that Bitcoin is accepted somewhere, right, like, the payment side and the adoption, 722 00:46:20,013 --> 00:46:26,303 it really does help, right, like, it's not as if a merchant accepting Bitcoin is 723 00:46:26,313 --> 00:46:31,223 going to be even like really a negative for them, unless it massively increases 724 00:46:31,223 --> 00:46:35,908 their anxiety about whether they're tax burden or, or regulatory accounting 725 00:46:35,918 --> 00:46:41,428 needs or something like that, which is, uh, fair that happens in some, some 726 00:46:41,468 --> 00:46:48,748 countries that don't get it, but, but, uh, merchant adoption and payments and, 727 00:46:48,748 --> 00:46:52,688 and all this, this is what the lightning network work is really for, right? 728 00:46:52,698 --> 00:46:56,988 Like that, that's the purpose to actually facilitate the payment side of Bitcoin as 729 00:46:56,988 --> 00:46:58,358 opposed to just keeping a store of value. 730 00:46:58,368 --> 00:46:59,528 Like, what are your thoughts on that? 731 00:47:00,383 --> 00:47:01,063 Yeah, exactly. 732 00:47:01,063 --> 00:47:07,983 I mean, my thoughts in general is that the companies, um, And the people pushing 733 00:47:08,133 --> 00:47:15,583 this online and, um, people operating with lightning, we need to look at how 734 00:47:15,623 --> 00:47:19,973 payments work in the different countries, what the challenges are, and we need to 735 00:47:19,973 --> 00:47:25,473 solve them, um, because nobody's adopting this technology or that's incorrect. 736 00:47:25,673 --> 00:47:27,203 A few people are adopting it. 737 00:47:27,753 --> 00:47:31,133 Just because they want to use that new technology, when you look at the 738 00:47:31,153 --> 00:47:35,823 total population, people care about money, people care about simplicity, 739 00:47:35,883 --> 00:47:41,413 especially simplicity, people even pay money to not have to bother with things. 740 00:47:41,953 --> 00:47:47,443 Like you see with credit card fees and this, like, imagine how much money is 741 00:47:47,753 --> 00:47:50,823 lost by merchants, large merchants. 742 00:47:51,263 --> 00:47:54,033 paying percentages based on transactions. 743 00:47:54,673 --> 00:47:58,693 They're doing that for convenience and they're doing that because they don't 744 00:47:58,693 --> 00:48:02,483 really see that expense that that's sort of just deducted from what they 745 00:48:02,483 --> 00:48:05,933 receive and it's just calculated into the price but they might pay millions 746 00:48:05,973 --> 00:48:10,893 millions for this little box that the customer taps in order to pay them or 747 00:48:10,893 --> 00:48:13,233 whatever form they fill in to to pay. 748 00:48:15,713 --> 00:48:20,523 For their goods online and for lightning adoption in certain 749 00:48:20,523 --> 00:48:24,303 countries, we need to reach the point where the simplicity is equal. 750 00:48:24,393 --> 00:48:28,773 Uh, and, uh, people don't really think about this differently, 751 00:48:28,773 --> 00:48:31,953 but we get all the benefits we get from lightning transactions, 752 00:48:31,953 --> 00:48:33,543 which is the final settlement. 753 00:48:34,053 --> 00:48:36,423 We get the speed of that transaction. 754 00:48:36,483 --> 00:48:40,053 Uh, the price of that transaction is much lower, especially if you do it right. 755 00:48:40,763 --> 00:48:46,503 Uh, we need, um, we need to just show that and sell that, not sell Bitcoin. 756 00:48:46,998 --> 00:48:50,298 and beginning to get these people because they don't care about Bitcoin, right? 757 00:48:50,828 --> 00:48:54,278 We care about Bitcoin and we're trying to get people to care about Bitcoin 758 00:48:54,288 --> 00:49:00,258 because of all the important, um, benefits that has, but as we see at 759 00:49:00,278 --> 00:49:04,848 massive scale, people don't do their, do what's good for them necessarily, right? 760 00:49:05,288 --> 00:49:08,578 Uh, convenience and just going through your day is often... 761 00:49:08,938 --> 00:49:13,118 Enough, uh, for people to just, I don't know, be distracted and not caring 762 00:49:13,118 --> 00:49:15,238 about the important parts of this. 763 00:49:15,268 --> 00:49:20,608 So we need to meet people, um, where they are, and we need to 764 00:49:20,608 --> 00:49:22,318 solve the problems in each country. 765 00:49:22,358 --> 00:49:26,918 And we need to, yeah, make it easy for people to make the right choice. 766 00:49:27,797 --> 00:49:30,547 Any thoughts on El Salvador and what is going on there? 767 00:49:30,647 --> 00:49:32,967 And any thoughts on Chivo Wallet? 768 00:49:33,017 --> 00:49:34,297 Is that a psy op? 769 00:49:34,527 --> 00:49:37,917 Like, is that a CBDC in disguise? 770 00:49:37,947 --> 00:49:40,957 Like, well, what are your thoughts on El Salvador in general? 771 00:49:41,556 --> 00:49:44,246 Um, to be honest, I'm not deep enough into it. 772 00:49:44,246 --> 00:49:48,336 I see stuff on Twitter, but it's so easy on Twitter to say, Oh, that's bad. 773 00:49:48,336 --> 00:49:49,026 Oh, that's good. 774 00:49:49,026 --> 00:49:49,276 Right. 775 00:49:49,646 --> 00:49:52,586 Um, without really looking deeper into what's going on. 776 00:49:52,636 --> 00:49:57,651 Um, I've heard there is issues with adoption, and I think that goes back to 777 00:49:57,651 --> 00:49:59,361 the same stuff I talked about earlier. 778 00:50:00,351 --> 00:50:01,401 People don't understand it. 779 00:50:01,411 --> 00:50:03,941 They don't necessarily know what's good for them. 780 00:50:04,981 --> 00:50:07,231 It is a hard transition, right? 781 00:50:07,421 --> 00:50:12,621 Imagine that we just suddenly come in and say like, in 1997, 782 00:50:13,371 --> 00:50:17,111 we say just everybody should use internet right now to send mail. 783 00:50:19,091 --> 00:50:20,921 A lot of people aren't going to do that, right? 784 00:50:21,281 --> 00:50:23,781 Um, and the convenience stress isn't high enough. 785 00:50:23,801 --> 00:50:30,361 So we need to, to, to get to that point and need to be not necessarily patient, 786 00:50:30,411 --> 00:50:36,361 uh, but need to understand how heavy and how much needs to change to get there. 787 00:50:36,401 --> 00:50:41,996 So I'm actually quite positive of what's happening in El Salvador in terms of Uh, 788 00:50:42,106 --> 00:50:47,236 whatever adoption we have, uh, we need to just keep working on it and increase that. 789 00:50:48,009 --> 00:50:49,829 But yeah, again, I'm not too deep into it. 790 00:50:49,829 --> 00:50:53,779 There's probably a lot of problems in different places, uh, that you 791 00:50:53,779 --> 00:50:58,629 alluded to that I'm not deeply into enough because I'm so focused on 792 00:50:58,629 --> 00:51:02,859 building and working in the Lightning industry from a technical perspective. 793 00:51:04,384 --> 00:51:05,024 Oh, that's great. 794 00:51:05,034 --> 00:51:06,444 That's the division of labor. 795 00:51:06,574 --> 00:51:11,714 Uh, I mean, focus on what you're good at and things will sort themselves out. 796 00:51:11,814 --> 00:51:12,284 Right, Luke? 797 00:51:13,124 --> 00:51:13,974 Yeah, absolutely. 798 00:51:13,974 --> 00:51:18,414 I mean, we need people who understand the technical side and I've got a technical 799 00:51:18,424 --> 00:51:22,694 background and I still even have a fiat job that's kind of tech oriented. 800 00:51:22,694 --> 00:51:29,644 And the thing is, it's still Really not something that I can personally focus 801 00:51:29,694 --> 00:51:34,624 on building the the tech side juggling a fiat job and something like that. 802 00:51:34,654 --> 00:51:38,544 And so so, yeah, for people who actually are able to make the 803 00:51:38,844 --> 00:51:44,144 leap to to work on Bitcoin, it's it's really fantastic to see. 804 00:51:44,144 --> 00:51:50,484 And, and, I mean, how does it work that that to actually get information 805 00:51:50,959 --> 00:51:54,529 Developers and technical people to be able to do more things with Bitcoin 806 00:51:54,539 --> 00:52:00,089 because I, I really do see it as a, as a problem that, for example, they can 807 00:52:00,089 --> 00:52:04,869 just, again, with the shit coins, they can just get a bag of shit coin money to 808 00:52:04,869 --> 00:52:10,699 go work on some blockchain project, or they can mine fiat and do normie things. 809 00:52:11,289 --> 00:52:16,629 Um, how, how do we get developers to, to, uh, Bitcoin and to understand, 810 00:52:16,849 --> 00:52:19,519 uh, why it's important for them to spend their time on that? 811 00:52:20,116 --> 00:52:24,466 Yeah, I mean, I think there's a lot more developers who really want to work 812 00:52:24,476 --> 00:52:27,956 with Bitcoin and on Bitcoin than the people who get the chance to do it. 813 00:52:28,576 --> 00:52:36,321 Um, the reason for that is, as you said, with With shitcoins, you can 814 00:52:36,321 --> 00:52:40,641 just basically print money out of nowhere, uh, and convince people 815 00:52:40,651 --> 00:52:44,341 through massive amount of marketing that they're worth something, and then 816 00:52:44,341 --> 00:52:48,941 cash that out in order to fund your development, uh, or fund VCs, essentially. 817 00:52:48,951 --> 00:52:52,901 And a lot of VCs have gotten used to the fact that you, you 818 00:52:52,911 --> 00:52:57,551 create this token, you dump it on people, uh, within a year or two. 819 00:52:57,581 --> 00:52:59,131 And if you're a VC. 820 00:52:59,936 --> 00:53:03,766 And you get the choice between a regular startup that spends 10 years 821 00:53:03,766 --> 00:53:10,416 until they can cash out, um, or two years from some, yeah, token. 822 00:53:10,926 --> 00:53:14,256 Um, you're going to do the former, uh, no, the later, I mean. 823 00:53:14,696 --> 00:53:20,926 Um, and that's where Bitcoin is in this position where, funding wise, 824 00:53:21,406 --> 00:53:23,946 they, they operate like in normal. 825 00:53:24,451 --> 00:53:26,021 Um, startup. 826 00:53:26,401 --> 00:53:28,681 So it is the near horizon on things, right. 827 00:53:29,201 --> 00:53:34,361 Um, while the investors who are there are often coming from sort 828 00:53:34,361 --> 00:53:35,861 of the general crypto space. 829 00:53:36,151 --> 00:53:40,561 Uh, of course we have Bitcoin focused VCs and they're often really good, but. 830 00:53:41,201 --> 00:53:44,141 There's limited amount of money in that, which in, in, so 831 00:53:44,141 --> 00:53:45,461 the, the Bitcoin focused one. 832 00:53:46,081 --> 00:53:49,501 So, so you have this huge division, uh, and separation between sort 833 00:53:49,501 --> 00:53:52,441 of the rest of the, the VC world and so the, the Bitcoin VCs. 834 00:53:53,511 --> 00:53:58,291 And that results in less money for the true Bitcoin companies, 835 00:53:58,531 --> 00:54:00,271 uh, which results in fewer jobs. 836 00:54:01,021 --> 00:54:05,371 So there are a lot of people right now who's just either, uh, part-time 837 00:54:05,371 --> 00:54:10,711 or full-time working on open source projects or in companies for lower. 838 00:54:11,011 --> 00:54:15,841 Rages because they're really passionate about getting this to work and doing 839 00:54:15,841 --> 00:54:21,081 the work that is needed, um, for Bitcoin to evolve and to work, and, um. 840 00:54:21,901 --> 00:54:25,741 yeah, I mean, uh, I think it is something that's worthwhile doing 841 00:54:25,751 --> 00:54:30,241 because this industry is growing, uh, steadily through the bear market. 842 00:54:30,681 --> 00:54:35,571 It grows of course, um, a lot in funding wise in the, in the bull market. 843 00:54:36,211 --> 00:54:41,246 And the only way to really get into this industry is through fruitful work. 844 00:54:41,416 --> 00:54:47,046 Uh, you need to show that you understand Bitcoin and especially Lightning 845 00:54:47,056 --> 00:54:49,536 has a complexity that's higher. 846 00:54:49,566 --> 00:54:50,736 It is harder to understand. 847 00:54:50,746 --> 00:54:57,046 There's more terms, um, both from sort of user perspective and from development 848 00:54:57,206 --> 00:54:59,346 perspective of how the network works. 849 00:55:00,046 --> 00:55:05,276 Um, so yeah, proof of work, you really dive into it, uh, spare time 850 00:55:05,346 --> 00:55:09,016 in the beginning if you need to and, uh, get into the industry now. 851 00:55:10,531 --> 00:55:10,751 Yeah. 852 00:55:10,751 --> 00:55:13,661 Proof of work leads leading up to proof of results. 853 00:55:13,991 --> 00:55:16,321 Uh, at some point, that's what we're looking for. 854 00:55:16,941 --> 00:55:21,061 Henrik, thank you very much for the conversation and I hope to see you soon. 855 00:55:21,601 --> 00:55:26,351 Before we leave, can you guide our listeners to where to find you and where 856 00:55:26,351 --> 00:55:31,181 to find TORQ and are you attending any conferences this year or stuff like that? 857 00:55:32,261 --> 00:55:38,221 Yeah, I've, uh, I'm attending the Adopting Bitcoin conference, uh, so, uh, go there. 858 00:55:38,221 --> 00:55:41,921 I think that's a great, uh, conference, uh, also for Lightning. 859 00:55:42,681 --> 00:55:48,001 Um, you can find Torque at, um, Twitter with, uh, at Torque LN. 860 00:55:49,521 --> 00:55:51,751 And, uh, myself at O. 861 00:55:51,801 --> 00:55:57,211 Henrik Skogström, a bit hard to pronounce and understand, so maybe we 862 00:55:57,211 --> 00:56:01,271 can add something in the show notes, um, but that's the main two channels. 863 00:56:01,391 --> 00:56:06,021 Uh, we're also writing a lot of content on Toric LN, uh, to, to help 864 00:56:06,031 --> 00:56:07,861 bring people, uh, into Lightning. 865 00:56:08,740 --> 00:56:09,310 Wonderful. 866 00:56:09,360 --> 00:56:10,600 Thank you so much, Henrik. 867 00:56:10,920 --> 00:56:12,910 This has been the Freedom Footprint Show. 868 00:56:13,160 --> 00:56:14,040 Thanks for listening. 869 00:56:14,597 --> 00:56:16,347 So what did you think of that episode with Henrik? 870 00:56:16,717 --> 00:56:18,637 It was interesting to learn more about how the Lightning 871 00:56:18,637 --> 00:56:19,937 Network works under the hood. 872 00:56:20,477 --> 00:56:21,667 What was your favorite moment? 873 00:56:21,817 --> 00:56:22,497 Let us know. 874 00:56:22,897 --> 00:56:25,747 You can send us a boostergram on Fountain, leave us a comment on YouTube, 875 00:56:25,757 --> 00:56:27,577 or get in touch on Nostr or Twitter. 876 00:56:28,197 --> 00:56:30,327 If you're watching on YouTube, don't forget to like the episode 877 00:56:30,327 --> 00:56:31,467 and subscribe to the channel. 878 00:56:31,947 --> 00:56:35,947 Our show's sponsors are AmberApp, WasabiWallet, OrangePillApp, 879 00:56:36,087 --> 00:56:37,807 TheBitcoinWay, and Geyser. 880 00:56:38,207 --> 00:56:39,837 All their information is in the description. 881 00:56:40,687 --> 00:56:44,587 That's all for now, see you next time, and thanks for listening.