Rigel Walshe on Integrity in Bitcoin - Bitcoin Infinity Show #132


Rigel Walshe is an OG Bitcoiner, metalhead, and all-around awesome guy! We were joined by Rigel live at Baltic Honeybadger 2024 in Riga.
Rigel delves into his journey from playing in a metal band to becoming a notable figure in the Bitcoin community. He discusses his experiences with Bitcoin since 2014, his transition into the tech world, and the similarities he's observed between subcultures in metal music and Bitcoin.
The discussion covers the evolution of Bitcoin conferences, the integrity of the Bitcoin community, and the rise of Nostr as a decentralized communication protocol. Join us as we explore the intricacies of Bitcoin culture, the balance between signal and noise in the community, and the philosophical underpinnings of this revolutionary technology.
Connect with Rigel:
https://primal.net/p/npub1n0strmeta93fwxkdz5k2nquvpnjtwxcst2jdkspavyzd3g4ch22qjrhlw3
https://x.com/CoinsureNZ
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The Bitcoin Infinity Show is a Bitcoin podcast hosted by Knut Svanholm and Luke de Wolf.
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In each episode, we explore everything from deep philosophy to practical tools to emit freedom dioxide to expand your freedom footprint!
00:00 - BIS132 - Rigel Walshe
00:12 - Welcoming Rigel Walshe
01:33 - From Metal to Bitcoin
10:56 - Conference Experiences
12:21 - Bitcoin Psychopaths vs Bitcoin Sociopaths
16:27 - Baltic Honeybadger
25:06 - Speaking at Conferences
28:18 - Dangerous Narratives in Bitcoin
35:49 - Nostr
40:32 - Disagreeableness in Bitcoin
42:35 - Affinity Scams in Bitcoin
45:46 - The Influence of Influencers
49:43 - The Importance of Integrity
52:59 - Leaning In
57:55 - Wrapping Up
00:00:00,000 --> 00:00:04,205
Welcome to the Bitcoin Infinity Show,
brought to you by BitBox Stampseed,
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the Bitcoin Advisor and ShopInBit.
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Go to BitcoinInfinity.com
for books, merch and more.
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Enjoy the conversation.
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Rigel, welcome to the
Bitcoin Infinity Show.
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Thank you for having me on.
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Yeah.
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Yeah, it's, uh, finally!
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Yeah.
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I think we talked about this like,
I even maybe like two years ago or
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something, you were like, want to do this?
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And just I think too busy doing different
things and never happened, right?
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yeah.
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But we figured we'd do an in person one,
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Mm-Hmm.
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Because I remember the first time
I saw you back in 2019, like, uh,
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my first time here, and like, the
starting gun for me for all of this
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crazy life that has followed on later.
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So, uh, and here's this guy on stage,
uh, playing death metal songs for
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All.
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finance and nerd people.
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So, yeah, yeah, it's, uh, I thought it
was absolutely awesome, so yeah, I'm
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not the only metalhead in here, like,
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I remember when I, when I put
that in the presentation, I was
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like, is this going to go down?
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I was just going to go down, right?
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And then everyone like clapped
after I played that video.
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I was like, oh, cool.
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No, it was super based.
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Thank you.
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Uh, like, uh, what's the
name of your band again?
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Uh, so I play in a band called Diocletian.
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Um, I used to play in a band called Dawn
of Ezel, but the band I play in now is
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a band called Diocletian, which is like,
I guess you would call it like the,
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you know, metal's got like a zillion
sub genres and stuff, but like, you
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would call it like war metal, I guess.
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War metal.
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War metal is the thing, right?
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Yeah, so, yeah, yeah.
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Yeah.
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Yeah.
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And, uh, what's your story?
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Like give our listeners your story.
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How, um, who are you and, uh, what, what
turned you on to death metal and what
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turned you on to Bitcoin and is there
a connection between the two and all of
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Oh my God.
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Okay.
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This is a very long winded.
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How do I summarize this pretty well?
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Okay.
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So yeah, I'm, I'm Roger Walsh.
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I go by Coinsurance Ed on Twitter
and, and Telegram and these, a
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lot of these kinds of platforms.
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Um, uh, yeah, I mean, uh, played
music and stuff since I was, um,
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17 years old, you know, been a
band where, you know, I'm from New
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Zealand, that's where that was from.
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We were the first metal band to ever get
out of the country, really, even like
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Australia, um, let alone, um, Europe
and the States and things like that.
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So, you know, we, we did quite a few,
uh, four albums, I think it was, with my
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old band Dawn of Azel before we split up,
um, and, yeah, I never, never, Really,
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really massively big, but, um, you know,
like, in New Zealand it's quite a bit
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bigger than we were, um, outside of
that, and certainly Europe or the States.
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Um, the same time, when I
turned 21, I joined the police.
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I was in the police for 10 years, um,
at the same time as this was going on,
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and if you search my name, you'll find
some interesting news reports about some
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trouble I had for that kind of reason.
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Um, so, so that's maybe my background.
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Background with that part, we'll shift
forward to maybe when I first got into
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Bitcoin in 2014, um, and so for me, what
got me interested in Bitcoin was, as I
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said, I used to be in the police, um,
and one day, you know, I think I've heard
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of Bitcoin thrown around, I just I was
reading a news article about the, um,
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Silk Road trial, and this is when Russell
Brook was getting sentenced, and this is
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like after I left the police and things
like this, and um, it just blew my mind
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when I read that, it's like, because
I think most people don't really, or
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didn't, or can't quite grok maybe the way
that it makes It's me, in the sense of
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like, you have this drug market selling.
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Um, whatever you liked, you know,
under the eyes of the FBI and all these
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guys, and there was nothing they could
do for years, and this, I was like,
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wow, man, this is going to be straight
away, I thought this is how Russia and
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North Korea are going to get around
sanctions and stuff, as it seems they
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are doing today, you know, so to me this
is like nuclear weapons grade money.
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So my interest actually was, was
in Bitcoin, but also in the darknet
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market, so I just got on there and had
a look, and I, And that was what really
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interested me, but of course, like most
people that play around in the darknet
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markets, you, you start, okay, what
is this Bitcoin thing that I'm using
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and sending and start looking into it.
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And look, I'd never been
a finance kind of guy.
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I mean, um, like I said, I joined the
police rather relatively early on.
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They've got a very good superannuation
scheme where, like, you put in a dollar,
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the government puts in two dollars.
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And so, to me, I'd looked at investing
and shares and things a couple of
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times, and it never made sense because
I've got the best There's no better
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place that I could do is just put more
money in that fund that the government
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will match dollar for dollar, right?
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So this is the first time I've ever looked
at anything Really about investing and you
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know and obviously as you start thinking
about this Well at that time when I got
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into Bitcoin and bought my stuff was
around 200 bucks It just right at the end
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of the 2014 kind of crash and you know at
the time I thought like wow man this might
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be worth a thousand dollars some some
year later some some years later, right?
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You know so so I started putting pretty
much Everything I had which the time
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was not a lot because this is after I
left the police and I actually quite a
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bit of trouble Transitioning from that
into like some sort of civilian career.
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I was like I found it quite hard
to find, like, uh, work, and so I
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was working self employed, and I
didn't have a lot of money, but I put
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everything I had into Bitcoin, because
to me, it just made total sense, um.
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So yeah, that was 2014, um, obviously
fast forward a couple of years, 2017
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is around, and now Bitcoin is there.
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Close to 20 grand, you know, I've got,
got lots of, I'm fucking rich, you know,
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um, so, so what I, what I did is I,
I was like, man, I spend so much time
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thinking and talking about Bitcoin,
I really want to get involved in the
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space, but, you know, what, I'm not
a software developer, what can I do?
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So I actually ended up buying some
Trezors, and just through good luck, when
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I bought them, Bitcoin was around 10k.
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Um, and I bought like, something like,
I think, 200 or something treasures
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and ledges, um, and I sold all of
them in a month in New Zealand,
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which is a tiny country, you know,
which, which blew my mind, right?
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So then that happened, and this was like
February, and I remember it was December,
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I had mass massive orders, January pitted
off, and then like February, there was
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just nothing, and you know, the price
is going down, the thing, you know, so
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I was just in the right place at the
right time, and got lucky, and I had
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all this money out of this, and it was
in In a, in a business account that
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I'd have to pay taxes on, obviously,
if I didn't get rid of it, right?
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So, to my thing as well, I could pay
myself a salary and pay tax on it,
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but what's smarter is, hmm, how can
I use this money to make the next
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step and jump to the next thing?
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So I thought, well, let's go to a bunch of
Bitcoin conferences and see if there's any
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Uh, match for my kind of skills, right?
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So I'd never, I'd never gone to, I've
been to like meetups in New Zealand, but
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I had no idea like what it really looked
like out there in the real world, right?
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So I went to, um, like a couple
of, I went to like an Australian
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big Crip, uh, blockchain one,
which was like just total trash.
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And then I went to, um,
you know, token 2049.
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You heard of that one?
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It's like a still going.
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It's like a real shit coin kind of
conference thing that was in, um,
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rings a tiny bell, rings a tiny bell.
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Yeah.
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um, it's in, it was in Hong
Kong or something, right?
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And, and I remember I went to that
and it was, it was cool, right?
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But it was still, you know, I was still
in this world where, you know, obviously
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I was familiar with Bitcoin, but I
dabbled with, you know, altcoins and stuff
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like this and, and perhaps the way that
you or I would look at Bitcoin now, I
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think was still quite a new, new thing.
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New idea in those times, right?
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There wasn't this really well
nuanced ideology about how
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to view this kind of stuff.
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So I went there and I was kind of figuring
this out and I mean, this is cool, but
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it feels a little kind of creepy sleazy.
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The next one I went to was like
Konsensus in New York, which was at
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the time, that was the biggest Bitcoin
crypto conference you would say ever.
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And there was like, 3,
000 people or something.
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And I remember at that conference,
I was like, uh, there was a lot of,
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you know, all sorts of Ethereum and
things there, right, but there was a
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blockstream room at this conference.
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And I remember, like, I felt like, man,
this place feels so sleazy and so dirty
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and everyone seems like, Super sketchy,
but then you go to the Blockstream room,
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and I was like, these are the guys that,
you know, I just clicked, like when you
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meet them and you see this, and so I
think this is a really important thing
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for people that don't go to conferences,
that when you come, like a lot of this
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stuff, when you just see it with your
own eyes and talk to people directly,
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it makes a lot more sense than online.
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So I went to that, um, and then I met,
um, what's his name, Erik, last name is
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sketchy, but he's, uh, works on Bitcoin
Fabric, used to be at Blockstream.
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He told me, um, go to Building
on Bitcoin and go to Honeybadger.
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And so from then I started going to
conferences, when I went to building
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on Bitcoin, I kind of talked about
this in my talk today, it was like
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I wasn't a software developer, but
I saw Adam Fiskor and Nicholas Doria
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presented Wasabi and BTC Pay Server,
and I realized like, wow man, I thought
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before that Bitcoin software development
is all about like some super computer
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nerd guys and like Bitcoin core and
only this real high level stuff.
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But I realized, man, these guys
just made their own app on Bitcoin
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that really made a real difference.
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And wow, you know, I could do that
if I were to put my mind to it.
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So I came back straight away, got
into a Python coding course and just
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like really, really luckily, you
know, I went really crazy on this.
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And, um, then come December,
Jimmy Song came to Australia to do
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the, um, the programming course.
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I applied and got on that, um, and
I was like really out of my depth,
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but I, you know, but I managed
to keep up enough to write it.
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Um, and so this was like maybe six
months after, you know, six months
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ago, I didn't know anything about
like coding or anything like that.
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Um, And so just by pure luck, also,
you know, I was really, relatively well
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networked in the New Zealand, Auckland
Bitcoin scene, and I went to a meetup
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and there was a guy there who I tried,
knew kind of loosely, um, that I knew
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had a, like a really small exchange in
New Zealand, and I was talking about,
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he's like, Oh, what are you doing?
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I was like, Oh, I was just
building this API in Python.
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It's like, Oh, we're building out our API.
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Do you want to come and help?
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And I was like, Yeah, so at the time I
was working a job where I'm working four
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days a week and I had the Mondays off.
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And so I just started working there
on Mondays and then split with the
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ex girlfriend and I was really happy
in New Zealand and felt like I've
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really got to get out of here, right?
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So I was thinking even if I have
to like sell Bitcoin to leave,
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00:09:59,541 --> 00:10:01,351
I've just really got to get out
of New Zealand because I feel like
197
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there's just no future for me here.
198
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So I said to them, okay, look, hey, I
had a friend that was living in Bali.
199
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I said, look, hey, I'm moving to Bali.
200
00:10:08,221 --> 00:10:09,561
I really don't want to leave this job.
201
00:10:09,561 --> 00:10:12,476
And I really Appreciate what you
give me, but I've got to do this.
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00:10:12,486 --> 00:10:15,016
If you let me work remote, I
would really happily work remote,
203
00:10:15,056 --> 00:10:15,816
but I understand if you don't.
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00:10:15,816 --> 00:10:17,416
They're like, sure, yeah,
have a full time job.
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00:10:18,361 --> 00:10:23,321
So I did that, started doing that, um,
COVID happened, um, ended up in Mexico as
206
00:10:23,321 --> 00:10:27,631
a cause of that, and in, for the Jeremy
Songz course, there's like an alumni
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00:10:27,631 --> 00:10:31,851
telegram group, um, Jan Pritzker jumped
in there and he said like, hey, we're
208
00:10:31,851 --> 00:10:35,461
looking for developers at Swan, and, you
know, and I said, hey, I, you know, I do
209
00:10:35,461 --> 00:10:38,931
that, and the tech stack was very similar
to what I was already working on, and,
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00:10:38,931 --> 00:10:43,261
um, I got a job there, and so for the
last, up until, up until, uh, three weeks
211
00:10:43,261 --> 00:10:46,731
ago, I was working at Swan for three and
a half years, I think it was employee
212
00:10:46,731 --> 00:10:49,176
number, 10 or 11 or something there.
213
00:10:49,296 --> 00:10:51,036
Um, and that's pretty much it.
214
00:10:51,036 --> 00:10:53,256
I think that's, sorry long
thing, but I think I covered
215
00:10:53,256 --> 00:10:54,756
all the, all the bases there.
216
00:10:54,756 --> 00:10:56,406
And then I give some
talks at conferences here.
217
00:10:56,506 --> 00:10:58,686
Yeah, it's a, it's a, it's a great story.
218
00:10:58,686 --> 00:11:00,796
And there are many similarities to mine.
219
00:11:00,816 --> 00:11:05,176
Like I also have experience of the shit
coin conference before I went to Rega
220
00:11:05,176 --> 00:11:08,206
in 2019, but were you here in 2018?
221
00:11:08,534 --> 00:11:08,824
Yeah.
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00:11:09,119 --> 00:11:13,139
That was the first, because was, uh,
when I said when I met, um, Eric, he
223
00:11:13,139 --> 00:11:17,759
told me building on Bitcoin and then,
um, honey Beg are the ones, so I,
224
00:11:17,759 --> 00:11:21,149
I pretty much, that was the last of
the company money was that one there.
225
00:11:21,149 --> 00:11:24,659
And that, that one they were talking about
HCPP and I was like, oh, can I go to that?
226
00:11:24,659 --> 00:11:25,064
But it was just.
227
00:11:26,329 --> 00:11:30,069
Flying home, New Zealand, which is
like a two hour, two day journey, then
228
00:11:30,069 --> 00:11:33,549
coming back two weeks later and paying
for all the stuff, I didn't manage to
229
00:11:33,549 --> 00:11:36,399
make it, but like, that was the first,
first time, the last conference I
230
00:11:36,399 --> 00:11:38,949
went on that thing, and that really,
I mean, it was an amazing conference.
231
00:11:38,949 --> 00:11:40,609
So this, this has always been
an amazing conference, you know.
232
00:11:40,734 --> 00:11:46,064
uh, I saw your talk here last year,
uh, and it was really, really good,
233
00:11:46,074 --> 00:11:51,154
like awesome about Bitcoin cultures,
right, and different subcultures and,
234
00:11:51,584 --> 00:11:56,534
uh, what these subgroups and what
happens in a decentralized system,
235
00:11:56,984 --> 00:12:01,914
uh, and also like we've been chatting
during this conference about, uh,
236
00:12:03,024 --> 00:12:08,224
These, these effects, like how we find
our own in groups and how, how people
237
00:12:08,254 --> 00:12:10,114
cling onto the extremes here and there.
238
00:12:10,114 --> 00:12:14,424
And, uh, can you expand a bit on that
and, and what, what do you think is
239
00:12:14,424 --> 00:12:18,904
missing from conferences in general
and what makes Honeybadger stick out
240
00:12:18,924 --> 00:12:21,474
as a high signal one and all of that
241
00:12:21,759 --> 00:12:23,249
I mean, well, okay, so
three questions there.
242
00:12:23,249 --> 00:12:28,189
So to talk about the talk, um, yeah,
and it's called Bitcoin Psychopaths vs.
243
00:12:28,239 --> 00:12:31,349
Bitcoin Sociopaths, and if you Google
it, you can find the written thing
244
00:12:31,349 --> 00:12:33,229
and the video and view it yourself.
245
00:12:33,259 --> 00:12:37,419
But basically, what I talked about is,
to return to my story, right, when I
246
00:12:37,419 --> 00:12:41,269
started coming to these conferences, I
realized how much this had, the Bitcoin
247
00:12:41,279 --> 00:12:45,494
world had in common with the music world
in the sense of, The personalities,
248
00:12:45,494 --> 00:12:48,904
the little subgroups, the way that
things evolved, like I just saw a lot
249
00:12:48,904 --> 00:12:53,334
of things that clicked because to me
really like Bitcoin is like a Harley
250
00:12:53,334 --> 00:12:54,844
Davidson for computer nerds, right?
251
00:12:54,844 --> 00:12:58,514
It's like this kind of like subculture
where that people are involved in
252
00:12:58,524 --> 00:13:01,304
and I feel like a lot of people who
are in Bitcoin, like I have this
253
00:13:01,304 --> 00:13:04,854
experience of being these weird kind
of outside groups and how this works.
254
00:13:05,144 --> 00:13:07,434
I think a lot of people that are in
Bitcoin this is the first kind of
255
00:13:07,434 --> 00:13:10,604
really Out there, different thing
they've had in their life and they,
256
00:13:10,634 --> 00:13:12,054
you know, they're like blows in mind.
257
00:13:12,054 --> 00:13:16,024
They're like, wow, this is so cool, but
they don't realize how a lot of these
258
00:13:16,074 --> 00:13:17,774
idiosyncrasies are very much the same.
259
00:13:17,804 --> 00:13:20,264
I'd imagine the same if you
were like a Trekkie or you're
260
00:13:20,264 --> 00:13:21,624
into something like that.
261
00:13:21,624 --> 00:13:23,414
There's a lot of the same
sort of politics, right?
262
00:13:23,964 --> 00:13:29,629
So, so the talk is really talking about
how, um, How, uh, Bitcoin, in my opinion,
263
00:13:29,629 --> 00:13:33,599
is like a subculture or counterculture,
the same way that, um, you know, metal
264
00:13:33,599 --> 00:13:36,549
music would be an example, but, you
know, there's plenty of things like this
265
00:13:36,549 --> 00:13:40,049
where people have a niche interest, but
it's also kind of a little bit against
266
00:13:40,049 --> 00:13:42,359
society, right, if you know what I mean,
the whole idea of Bitcoin is you're
267
00:13:42,359 --> 00:13:45,939
trying to defund the state, and so it's
kind of like, it's not, it's not like a
268
00:13:45,939 --> 00:13:48,919
really dangerous out there kind of thing,
but, you know, the kind of thing that
269
00:13:48,919 --> 00:13:50,389
it's based on is not like a subculture.
270
00:13:50,929 --> 00:13:52,889
It's not in total alignment
with society, I think,
271
00:13:52,954 --> 00:13:54,764
inherently contrarian?
272
00:13:54,789 --> 00:13:58,039
Exactly, yeah, exactly, which does
attract a lot of contrarians, right?
273
00:13:58,299 --> 00:14:02,269
Um, so, so the whole talk was, was looking
at, okay, if you look at subcultures,
274
00:14:02,279 --> 00:14:06,659
how do they get involved or in, uh,
immersed in the traditional system, right?
275
00:14:06,659 --> 00:14:07,719
There's plenty of things.
276
00:14:07,959 --> 00:14:09,689
Let's take rap music, for example.
277
00:14:09,859 --> 00:14:12,149
You know, where you had, uh, Dr.
278
00:14:12,149 --> 00:14:16,144
Dre in, uh, NWA, and now he's
like, You know, selling Beats
279
00:14:16,144 --> 00:14:19,154
headphones and a very nice commercial
established businessman, right?
280
00:14:19,634 --> 00:14:22,634
Or another good one that I like
to use is like, um, weed, or
281
00:14:22,634 --> 00:14:24,054
like the gay community, right?
282
00:14:24,334 --> 00:14:27,224
At one point, these were very out there
things, and now they're very normal and
283
00:14:27,244 --> 00:14:30,214
very accepted, and they're almost like
Almost a little forced on you, right?
284
00:14:30,214 --> 00:14:32,564
In a lot of ways, as opposed
to like being an outcast.
285
00:14:32,984 --> 00:14:36,154
So, you know, when things become
normalized and when they get bigger and
286
00:14:36,154 --> 00:14:39,564
bigger and bigger, if they catch on,
eventually they kind of get watered down
287
00:14:39,604 --> 00:14:41,204
as they get integrated into society.
288
00:14:41,204 --> 00:14:44,274
And the same thing I think is already
happening in Bitcoin, um, and it's
289
00:14:44,274 --> 00:14:45,904
affecting the culture of Bitcoin.
290
00:14:46,174 --> 00:14:49,224
And I don't think you can really change
that, you know, it's, it's, it's, it's
291
00:14:49,254 --> 00:14:52,424
inevitable, but it's something that
I think we need to discuss and look
292
00:14:52,424 --> 00:14:57,254
at, okay, well, if you Some of these
other things there, how they lost, what
293
00:14:57,254 --> 00:14:59,814
made them powerful and transformative
in the first place, because they were
294
00:14:59,814 --> 00:15:01,294
kind of revolutionary movements, right?
295
00:15:01,294 --> 00:15:03,714
And they got watered down
and commercialized, right?
296
00:15:04,084 --> 00:15:06,544
So I think the same thing is
happening to Bitcoin right now,
297
00:15:06,544 --> 00:15:07,714
and you can't really stop it.
298
00:15:07,714 --> 00:15:11,244
This is, if you just look at history,
this is what happens, but there is a
299
00:15:11,244 --> 00:15:15,174
conversation to be had about how can we
navigate this as best as we can, right?
300
00:15:15,174 --> 00:15:18,034
So that's, that's more or
less a summary of that kind of
301
00:15:18,034 --> 00:15:19,274
talk and what that was about.
302
00:16:19,479 --> 00:16:20,159
Now, what was the,
303
00:16:21,109 --> 00:16:21,359
Yeah,
304
00:16:21,369 --> 00:16:21,959
was the other two
305
00:16:22,189 --> 00:16:23,289
of a long question.
306
00:16:23,339 --> 00:16:23,609
I mean,
307
00:16:23,829 --> 00:16:25,829
Maybe we can, yeah,
maybe we can just stay on
308
00:16:25,879 --> 00:16:27,169
Are you asking about conferences?
309
00:16:27,169 --> 00:16:30,929
Like you said, like, uh, what I think
about Bitcoin conferences and what
310
00:16:30,929 --> 00:16:31,959
I think I like about HoneyBadger.
311
00:16:32,179 --> 00:16:37,309
Well, what I like about HoneyBadger is
that, like, I think nowadays, um, the
312
00:16:37,309 --> 00:16:41,229
conference thing, kind of to speak to
what I just was talking about, right?
313
00:16:41,229 --> 00:16:45,009
As this gets bigger, it becomes more
commercial and, and, um, things get
314
00:16:45,009 --> 00:16:48,653
kind of watered down for people that
are, Casual participants, right?
315
00:16:48,653 --> 00:16:51,353
The people early on in the movement,
like, you know, if you're there in 2017,
316
00:16:51,353 --> 00:16:54,023
2018, you're really hardcore, right?
317
00:16:54,023 --> 00:16:57,573
But if you look at the way they're doing,
say, Bitcoin Nashville at the moment,
318
00:16:57,613 --> 00:16:58,523
like, it's a very different thing.
319
00:16:58,523 --> 00:17:01,993
It's very not watered down,
very commercial, and very one
320
00:17:02,003 --> 00:17:03,433
kind of one minded, right?
321
00:17:04,053 --> 00:17:06,783
And what I like about Honeybadge and
what I have so much respect for with
322
00:17:06,783 --> 00:17:10,818
this conference is that, um, They seem
to, at least, you know, I've never had
323
00:17:10,818 --> 00:17:13,548
this conversation directly, but this
is my impression, is that, remember
324
00:17:13,548 --> 00:17:17,178
in 2019, that was the biggest Bitcoin
conference in the world, and I think
325
00:17:17,178 --> 00:17:19,558
there was probably 600, 800 people, right?
326
00:17:20,058 --> 00:17:25,598
And, um, you know, things, things have
got bigger and stuff since then, and
327
00:17:25,598 --> 00:17:28,638
maybe, you know, this could have been
a bigger conference, I mean, certainly
328
00:17:28,638 --> 00:17:31,498
you would imagine it could have been
as big as, say, BTC Prague is, right?
329
00:17:31,498 --> 00:17:34,418
You know, but they seem to have had the
idea of, like, let's just keep it at a
330
00:17:34,418 --> 00:17:38,598
particular level and not go too far and
too hard, because in my humble opinion
331
00:17:39,018 --> 00:17:41,988
I think, like, the Bitcoin National
Conference is an absolute abomination,
332
00:17:41,988 --> 00:17:43,118
it's a circus, you know what I mean?
333
00:17:43,348 --> 00:17:47,378
And it's all there just to, like, make
it as loud and big as possible, but what
334
00:17:47,378 --> 00:17:50,868
is the message that is getting diluted
and what is getting presented to these
335
00:17:50,868 --> 00:17:55,268
newcomers there is, to me, is very much
getting away from what I believe the
336
00:17:55,268 --> 00:17:56,738
message of Bitcoin should be, right?
337
00:17:56,738 --> 00:18:00,168
Or at least it's not even a very nuanced
message no matter what it is, right?
338
00:18:00,738 --> 00:18:01,588
it's inflation,
339
00:18:01,868 --> 00:18:05,048
Yeah, yeah, yeah, I mean, but this
is, exactly, it's dilution inflation.
340
00:18:05,048 --> 00:18:07,408
It's the same thing as when it happens
to your money, it happens to culture.
341
00:18:07,408 --> 00:18:10,118
I mean, I've never thought about
that, but that's a very good, very
342
00:18:10,118 --> 00:18:11,308
good way to phrase it, I think.
343
00:18:12,098 --> 00:18:14,778
So, you know, when it, when it comes
to conferences, I was just saying this
344
00:18:14,818 --> 00:18:19,128
before, is, um, beyond, beyond the fact
of just making it big and watering it
345
00:18:19,138 --> 00:18:23,058
down, the other thing I think is, like,
the narrative is very, very stale, right?
346
00:18:23,418 --> 00:18:29,748
Um, you know, it's all still is and has
been for, you know, ever since 2018,
347
00:18:29,748 --> 00:18:30,388
2019, it's all about the narrative.
348
00:18:30,388 --> 00:18:32,728
Sound money and, and
the moneys of Bitcoin.
349
00:18:32,758 --> 00:18:33,028
Right.
350
00:18:33,028 --> 00:18:34,228
Which of course it is.
351
00:18:34,228 --> 00:18:36,598
And you know, it's, in my opinion,
the best money in the world.
352
00:18:37,168 --> 00:18:41,278
But I think, you know, we've still made
those arguments pretty well by this point.
353
00:18:41,278 --> 00:18:41,428
Right.
354
00:18:41,428 --> 00:18:43,408
You know, there's so much
stuff that's been written and I
355
00:18:43,408 --> 00:18:44,578
think it is really good stuff.
356
00:18:44,578 --> 00:18:44,788
Right.
357
00:18:44,788 --> 00:18:45,838
They're all good messages.
358
00:18:46,258 --> 00:18:49,058
But, they've been said, they're done,
they're written, right, you know,
359
00:18:49,348 --> 00:18:53,208
and you don't want to hear the same
guys giving the same talk every year
360
00:18:53,248 --> 00:18:55,098
over and over, which is what these
conferences are, I think it's like
361
00:18:55,108 --> 00:18:58,348
the Rolling Stones, you know, playing
their greatest hits, right, the Rolling
362
00:18:58,348 --> 00:19:02,718
Stones have some really amazing songs,
but if you've gone and seen them play
363
00:19:02,718 --> 00:19:06,128
live, playing their greatest hits ten
times, you're going to, uh, I think
364
00:19:06,188 --> 00:19:07,308
I'll skip it this year, right, you know.
365
00:19:07,953 --> 00:19:13,943
So, to what I see happening here, um, a
little, and that I think, I just can't
366
00:19:13,943 --> 00:19:16,683
believe this isn't more of a thing,
is like, if you want this movement
367
00:19:16,693 --> 00:19:20,273
to succeed, and you as a conference
promoter want people to come to your
368
00:19:20,273 --> 00:19:23,913
conferences, you've got to keep it new and
interesting and shift things up, right?
369
00:19:24,223 --> 00:19:26,043
And so you've got to find people
out there in the community.
370
00:19:26,233 --> 00:19:30,053
In the, in the community out there who,
who aren't speaking at conferences,
371
00:19:30,053 --> 00:19:31,563
aren't big, aren't famous, right?
372
00:19:31,563 --> 00:19:35,763
If we were to turn the analogy of like a
music, uh, festival, you know, there's,
373
00:19:35,793 --> 00:19:40,543
there's bands that, that aren't known, but
if you gave them a chance and used your
374
00:19:40,543 --> 00:19:43,443
festivals as a way to expose them to more
people, they could get bigger, and it's
375
00:19:43,443 --> 00:19:46,503
in your interest, because if you're having
the same bands play every year, people
376
00:19:46,503 --> 00:19:47,263
don't want to come to your conference.
377
00:19:47,583 --> 00:19:48,233
Festival again.
378
00:19:48,593 --> 00:19:52,023
But if you can help this new blood come
up, then it's in your interest because
379
00:19:52,023 --> 00:19:54,693
you can put them on the stage and you
can bring people to your event, right?
380
00:19:54,963 --> 00:19:57,793
And I think the same thing
should be done, uh, for this.
381
00:19:58,073 --> 00:19:59,993
I mean, obviously, I think it
should be done for the, for
382
00:19:59,993 --> 00:20:01,213
the good of Bitcoin, right?
383
00:20:01,213 --> 00:20:02,453
There's, it's not just the money in this.
384
00:20:02,463 --> 00:20:04,193
There's many different aspects to Bitcoin.
385
00:20:04,193 --> 00:20:06,473
It's a very interesting, you
know, I, I say it's like the,
386
00:20:06,523 --> 00:20:08,123
uh, uh, Rorschach's test, right?
387
00:20:08,133 --> 00:20:10,973
Like what you see in the inkblot
reflects more about you and I, but
388
00:20:11,153 --> 00:20:13,923
we can look at the same thing and see
two totally different things, right?
389
00:20:13,923 --> 00:20:14,293
Yeah.
390
00:20:14,533 --> 00:20:17,523
So I think it's in the interest of
Bitcoin to get people to flesh these
391
00:20:17,523 --> 00:20:20,883
out, these narratives, and give them an
opportunity to do it and to get it out in
392
00:20:20,883 --> 00:20:22,863
people's heads and for them to hear this.
393
00:20:22,933 --> 00:20:25,743
But it's also, um, it's also
in the interest of them as
394
00:20:25,743 --> 00:20:27,453
like conference promoters.
395
00:20:27,503 --> 00:20:30,223
Like I said, if it's just the same people
all the time, it's going to peter out.
396
00:20:30,253 --> 00:20:33,183
And I feel like Honeybadger is one of
the few places that's trying to do that,
397
00:20:33,303 --> 00:20:37,073
Yeah, and I mean, in my perspective,
HoneyBadger, two years ago, was
398
00:20:37,073 --> 00:20:38,663
my first ever conference, right?
399
00:20:38,903 --> 00:20:42,193
And so, I mean, that's already
my newness in this space
400
00:20:42,193 --> 00:20:43,443
compared to you guys, but still.
401
00:20:43,863 --> 00:20:46,543
HoneyBadger has been fantastic
for me from that perspective, and
402
00:20:46,543 --> 00:20:48,543
like, the signal, that's the focus.
403
00:20:48,543 --> 00:20:51,903
But we talked to Max Kai
about this not long ago.
404
00:20:52,183 --> 00:20:56,853
About how is the Latvian community
doing and Honeybadger hasn't really
405
00:20:56,863 --> 00:20:59,563
focused on growing the local community.
406
00:20:59,643 --> 00:21:04,123
It's been bringing the signal into
one place and everyone learned
407
00:21:04,123 --> 00:21:06,623
from each other and all this and
it's a fantastic event for Bitcoin,
408
00:21:06,963 --> 00:21:08,303
but that's that's one style of.
409
00:21:09,228 --> 00:21:13,398
And then there's these other ones that
are all about, uh, I mean, the American
410
00:21:13,398 --> 00:21:18,148
ones, especially like the Nashvilles
and all this, those are, you know, these
411
00:21:18,148 --> 00:21:21,738
entertainment fests and all this, and
I think they've also brought this to
412
00:21:21,818 --> 00:21:26,328
Amsterdam here in Europe, but I think
Prague and Madeira here this last year
413
00:21:26,328 --> 00:21:30,958
were both examples of conferences that
went a bit bigger, but have also have a
414
00:21:30,958 --> 00:21:36,348
layer of the local adoption, and I think
those types of conferences are Those
415
00:21:36,348 --> 00:21:37,578
are important for a different reason.
416
00:21:37,578 --> 00:21:42,058
Like the, the one that, uh, Bulgaria is
the example that I use, uh, I use a lot,
417
00:21:42,078 --> 00:21:46,398
like that, that, uh, they, they do a good
thing there to build the local adoption.
418
00:21:46,398 --> 00:21:50,188
And so get some speakers, get some
international presence to, to sort
419
00:21:50,188 --> 00:21:52,638
of show here's what this is, right?
420
00:21:52,938 --> 00:21:58,508
But, but focus on the local side of it
and building the adoption in that locale.
421
00:21:58,508 --> 00:21:59,688
I think that's quite the idea.
422
00:22:00,058 --> 00:22:01,578
on diversity and inclusion,
423
00:22:03,398 --> 00:22:03,708
That's so
424
00:22:03,718 --> 00:22:07,268
mean, I think it's true, like, you
know, as a New Zealander, we're kind
425
00:22:07,268 --> 00:22:10,488
of in this interesting position where,
you know, it's a very Western kind
426
00:22:10,488 --> 00:22:13,018
of culture, but we're somewhere in
between Europe and America, right?
427
00:22:13,018 --> 00:22:16,438
So, if you're European, you obviously,
you're kind of biased and polarized
428
00:22:16,448 --> 00:22:18,578
to a European way of doing things,
Americans are the other, and we're
429
00:22:18,588 --> 00:22:19,688
somewhat in the middle, right?
430
00:22:19,688 --> 00:22:20,488
So we see them both.
431
00:22:21,348 --> 00:22:25,158
From different angles, and there's pros
and cons from both, and I'm sure I'm
432
00:22:25,158 --> 00:22:27,618
going to offend some American people
saying this, but I'm just going to say it.
433
00:22:27,878 --> 00:22:32,218
European conferences are a thousand
times fucking better than American ones.
434
00:22:32,218 --> 00:22:36,858
And I've seen almost none that I
feel like really did a good job.
435
00:22:36,868 --> 00:22:39,528
I mean, I think something like
TabConf does it well, but I think
436
00:22:39,528 --> 00:22:42,468
technical conferences are a slightly
different kind of thing, right?
437
00:22:42,468 --> 00:22:42,648
You know,
438
00:22:42,748 --> 00:22:43,598
different beast.
439
00:22:43,768 --> 00:22:45,948
all there about technology, but
if you're trying to do something
440
00:22:45,948 --> 00:22:49,778
where People talk of talking about
more general people stuff, right?
441
00:22:50,348 --> 00:22:53,948
American things is just all about money,
all about being loud, and there's just no
442
00:22:53,948 --> 00:22:55,648
soul, right, as I feel in those things.
443
00:22:55,658 --> 00:22:57,318
Like, big and commercial and plastic.
444
00:22:57,808 --> 00:23:01,808
No soul, and I feel like Europeans just
seem to be able to do that much better.
445
00:23:02,688 --> 00:23:05,658
Sorry to any Americans watching
this, but that's been my impression.
446
00:23:05,953 --> 00:23:11,383
Honey Badger clearly has the soul, and
I mean, uh, yeah, I, like, the local
447
00:23:11,383 --> 00:23:15,443
adoption thing, that's not a dig, it's
just not what they've decided to focus
448
00:23:15,443 --> 00:23:21,113
on, so it's, uh, yeah, um, I think we, uh,
I hope, I hope this conference, uh, I'll
449
00:23:21,113 --> 00:23:23,093
be attending every year, um, you know,
450
00:23:23,188 --> 00:23:23,688
Yeah.
451
00:23:23,878 --> 00:23:27,778
And that's, that's why I love to see so
many Americans over in Europe, like this
452
00:23:27,778 --> 00:23:32,748
last year, uh, first of all, Madeira,
a ton of Americans came over, both
453
00:23:32,828 --> 00:23:35,408
speakers and attendees and uh, also.
454
00:23:35,863 --> 00:23:41,613
Uh, Prague, and here, like, you have,
uh, quite a few here too, and it's very,
455
00:23:41,643 --> 00:23:45,733
and quite a few high level ones, and
it's good to have them here to give them,
456
00:23:46,093 --> 00:23:48,293
give them a taste of what this is like.
457
00:23:49,558 --> 00:23:52,768
to, like, spread it around, I mean, to me,
the whole, I mean, I'm a guy that likes
458
00:23:52,768 --> 00:23:56,238
to have a drink and hang out with people
and things like that, so, you know, it's
459
00:23:56,238 --> 00:23:59,008
a big party, really, a conference, in a
lot of ways, you know, and so, I mean,
460
00:23:59,008 --> 00:24:02,178
I think I enjoy that element of it, but
again, you know, I think there's just
461
00:24:02,178 --> 00:24:06,288
so much value in, you know, You know,
we all talk online and stuff and you,
462
00:24:06,298 --> 00:24:08,968
you know, I, I see what you're writing
to someone else and things like that.
463
00:24:09,328 --> 00:24:12,448
But to, to be able to humanize and
talk to some of these people, and
464
00:24:12,488 --> 00:24:14,598
some of them you meet them and you
realize, oh, this guy isn't actually
465
00:24:14,598 --> 00:24:17,848
such a dickhead after all, I guess,
you know, or, or the opposite, right?
466
00:24:17,858 --> 00:24:20,158
This person that you think is really
high integrity or whatever, and you
467
00:24:20,158 --> 00:24:22,958
meet them, you're like, man, this
person, I have a very bad feeling
468
00:24:22,958 --> 00:24:23,998
about this kind of person, right?
469
00:24:24,018 --> 00:24:26,338
So I think that's a very important
thing is like, I mean, sure, if you're
470
00:24:26,338 --> 00:24:30,318
a casual participant, you know, maybe
a conference ticket is expensive as it
471
00:24:30,318 --> 00:24:31,588
is, let alone flying to somewhere else.
472
00:24:31,588 --> 00:24:34,508
But if you're really enmeshed in this
world, I think you owe it on yourself to
473
00:24:34,508 --> 00:24:37,898
go and like physically meet people and
there's just such a value in that which
474
00:24:37,898 --> 00:24:39,828
um, is difficult to articulate, you know?
475
00:24:40,474 --> 00:24:43,643
Yeah,
476
00:24:43,668 --> 00:24:49,548
hard to find new ideas and new,
uh, uh, new angles to view this.
477
00:24:49,668 --> 00:24:54,108
I mean, I, I had writer's block
for the longest time before
478
00:24:54,138 --> 00:24:57,898
starting the new book and before
I had ideas good enough to pursue.
479
00:24:58,288 --> 00:25:03,048
And it's, uh, it's getting increasingly
harder with each book, of course,
480
00:25:03,078 --> 00:25:05,958
because there's only this so many
times you can say the same thing,
481
00:25:06,303 --> 00:25:09,873
I know the feeling of, of like, uh,
you know, like I'm thinking about,
482
00:25:10,023 --> 00:25:13,793
because I've, I've been invited as I've
been told to speak here every year.
483
00:25:13,833 --> 00:25:16,943
Um, and so I'm thinking, okay, when I went
to about next year, I'm like, Oh man, like
484
00:25:17,523 --> 00:25:19,213
what to do two or three things, right.
485
00:25:19,213 --> 00:25:22,913
It's like to avoid just repeating it or
slightly changing or morally saying the
486
00:25:22,913 --> 00:25:26,833
same thing is like, it's a big ass to
do, but I mean, I think that's, that,
487
00:25:26,843 --> 00:25:29,113
that also is a way of, of rather than.
488
00:25:29,468 --> 00:25:32,838
Um, you're right thinking that we've
got to write the whole story ourselves
489
00:25:32,838 --> 00:25:36,678
and it's on you to like come up with
new ideas for 10 years in a row.
490
00:25:37,258 --> 00:25:40,528
It's more like you have your little
thing and it's best just like hone
491
00:25:40,528 --> 00:25:42,038
that message really, really well.
492
00:25:42,288 --> 00:25:46,118
And this is how I feel about it is I
used to think with conferences, no, I
493
00:25:46,118 --> 00:25:47,838
never want to give the same talk twice.
494
00:25:47,838 --> 00:25:49,568
I want to do it, you know,
once and something every
495
00:25:49,568 --> 00:25:50,578
time has to be something new.
496
00:25:50,908 --> 00:25:53,678
But I kind of realized after doing a
bunch of them is like, well, most people
497
00:25:53,678 --> 00:25:55,308
aren't going to see you talk anyway.
498
00:25:55,348 --> 00:25:55,728
All right.
499
00:25:55,728 --> 00:25:57,963
Or they're not going to.
500
00:25:58,553 --> 00:26:02,813
You know, take the time to or they're not
gonna appreciate in the moment that that
501
00:26:02,813 --> 00:26:07,678
it was right then right and there's real
value not just Um, for you personally in
502
00:26:07,678 --> 00:26:11,178
terms of like, when you give a talk once,
it's probably going to be better the third
503
00:26:11,178 --> 00:26:14,788
or fourth or fifth time that you give it,
right, but there's also value to repeating
504
00:26:14,788 --> 00:26:18,568
the same message, right, which to me
almost felt like false or a cop out, but
505
00:26:18,568 --> 00:26:21,508
no, I think now, after doing it a while,
there's actually something to be done
506
00:26:21,508 --> 00:26:25,808
with that, which is take one small thing
and focus on that small area and don't
507
00:26:25,818 --> 00:26:29,488
try and be like, completely reinventing
yourself, like, tomorrow you're going
508
00:26:29,488 --> 00:26:33,548
to be talking about some weird economics
and then you're How bitcoin is art, or
509
00:26:33,548 --> 00:26:36,698
something, you know, I mean like, just
take one thing and build your little
510
00:26:36,848 --> 00:26:40,618
notice around that and really, really
hone that particular message, because like
511
00:26:40,788 --> 00:26:44,948
we've done with the um, economic stuff,
right, I think we've really steel manned
512
00:26:44,948 --> 00:26:48,348
that idea, and there's just anything, any
objection that someone could have about
513
00:26:48,348 --> 00:26:52,038
the money stuff, someone has written just
the best thing and you're just like, bam,
514
00:26:52,038 --> 00:26:53,608
and you haven't asked your every question.
515
00:26:53,608 --> 00:26:56,858
There's real value for us as a community
in doing that, but that just comes from
516
00:26:57,148 --> 00:27:01,468
a small amount of people focus, doing
focus work on one particular thing, so.
517
00:27:01,873 --> 00:27:04,243
That's funny, that
reminds me of comedians.
518
00:27:04,243 --> 00:27:07,633
I mean comedians are like some of the
most visible people on podcasts and
519
00:27:07,633 --> 00:27:11,083
stuff because for some reason people like
to listen to funny people be funny or
520
00:27:11,083 --> 00:27:18,963
something like that, but you know, you
hear about their process of literally
521
00:27:18,963 --> 00:27:24,343
going around and touring and working
on their jokes and stuff like that, the
522
00:27:24,343 --> 00:27:28,583
same ones, they don't do a new act every
year, Every night, you know, they, they
523
00:27:28,583 --> 00:27:32,293
work on it and then, and then eventually
they, they record it and everything.
524
00:27:32,313 --> 00:27:33,873
And then, and then that's, that's it.
525
00:27:33,893 --> 00:27:35,783
That's actually not a
bad model for, for this
526
00:27:35,823 --> 00:27:37,373
I think a good analogy, right?
527
00:27:37,373 --> 00:27:41,723
I mean, like, you can't tell the same joke
for 10 years, but you wouldn't want to
528
00:27:41,723 --> 00:27:46,223
try and rewrite a whole new, like, half
an hour comedy skit every, you just, I
529
00:27:46,223 --> 00:27:49,843
mean, trying to write some of these talks
is, is, maybe I'm just a moron, right?
530
00:27:49,843 --> 00:27:52,673
But, but trying to write some of these
talks is, it takes months, right?
531
00:27:52,673 --> 00:27:56,383
And, and when I do it, I've just
got, like, pretty much memorize half
532
00:27:56,383 --> 00:27:59,783
an hour of stuff and then practice
it so it becomes more natural.
533
00:27:59,993 --> 00:28:01,433
But I mean, like, trying to do that.
534
00:28:02,038 --> 00:28:04,908
You know, if I was trying to do this like
six times a year, I stick to like three
535
00:28:04,928 --> 00:28:06,788
because it's too much for me, right?
536
00:28:06,788 --> 00:28:07,998
But imagine trying to
do it six times a year.
537
00:28:07,998 --> 00:28:11,118
You just can't do that alone unless
you're full time working on it.
538
00:28:11,448 --> 00:28:14,188
So, you know, there's lots of reasons
why I think just one small thing
539
00:28:14,188 --> 00:28:15,618
repeated it actually has some value.
540
00:28:15,658 --> 00:28:16,008
Yeah.
541
00:28:16,718 --> 00:28:21,408
No, and uh, um, do you think there
are any like narratives around
542
00:28:21,418 --> 00:28:25,118
Bitcoin or, uh, thoughts around
it that are actually dangerous?
543
00:28:25,218 --> 00:28:28,428
Like the, the people
are on the wrong track?
544
00:28:28,798 --> 00:28:33,078
Uh, I mean like the stuff I talked about
before, right, where I think the message
545
00:28:33,078 --> 00:28:38,698
is being deluded and it's dangerous and
that like the analogy which I was supposed
546
00:28:38,698 --> 00:28:42,498
to make in this talk but I actually kind
of like As you do, you know, skip over
547
00:28:42,498 --> 00:28:45,848
or like move around some things that you
were going to say, but you didn't say.
548
00:28:46,238 --> 00:28:49,938
The thing like, the real risk to
me is that, um, if we don't change
549
00:28:50,158 --> 00:28:52,278
people's view on what technology is.
550
00:28:52,278 --> 00:28:53,668
Like, people want
something that's familiar.
551
00:28:53,718 --> 00:28:55,098
They want to recreate what they know.
552
00:28:55,098 --> 00:28:56,318
It's human nature, right?
553
00:28:56,868 --> 00:28:59,868
And so, for you as a business owner, or
someone that's creating something and
554
00:28:59,868 --> 00:29:03,028
trying to get more Bitcoiners on board,
which I think there's maybe a little too
555
00:29:03,048 --> 00:29:06,408
much emphasis on, it's just more people
in the door, so the number can go up.
556
00:29:07,058 --> 00:29:09,718
The more you do that, the more people
try to make it understandable and
557
00:29:09,718 --> 00:29:12,758
relatable by people, so they make
it more like what it already is.
558
00:29:13,063 --> 00:29:15,903
And by making it more like what it
already is, the whole idea about Bitcoin
559
00:29:15,903 --> 00:29:18,863
is changing what it already is in
terms of money and things like that.
560
00:29:19,193 --> 00:29:22,603
I think the risk that we run is like
recreating the existing financial system
561
00:29:22,603 --> 00:29:23,953
with an orange coat of paint, right?
562
00:29:23,953 --> 00:29:27,023
The same, same thing, but yeah,
just with different words,
563
00:29:27,023 --> 00:29:28,433
different wardrobe change, right?
564
00:29:28,783 --> 00:29:32,783
So I think that's, that's probably to me
is the most dangerous thing where, I know
565
00:29:32,783 --> 00:29:37,008
I'm someone that's like very much the
privacy, freedom, self custodial kind of
566
00:29:37,008 --> 00:29:40,108
thing, and very anti KYC, all this kind
of stuff, but you know, having worked
567
00:29:40,108 --> 00:29:43,088
at companies like this, I understand why
these things are necessary, and there
568
00:29:43,088 --> 00:29:47,728
is also an argument why you would say,
well, sure, it's KYC, but if a lot of
569
00:29:47,738 --> 00:29:51,178
people buy Bitcoin, it doesn't matter
if it's KYC, because we've defunded the
570
00:29:51,178 --> 00:29:53,638
government, you know, so there is a,
like, there's a middle ground here to
571
00:29:53,648 --> 00:29:58,213
be, to be found, But I think probably
that's what I'm getting to the, the
572
00:29:58,213 --> 00:30:00,103
real point is, is like a nuance, right?
573
00:30:00,143 --> 00:30:02,663
You know, somewhere in between
those two polarized things, there's
574
00:30:02,663 --> 00:30:03,963
the, the right way to do it.
575
00:30:03,963 --> 00:30:07,033
And it's probably not going to be
universal in all situations what it
576
00:30:07,033 --> 00:30:09,353
is, but there's just a real lack of.
577
00:30:10,043 --> 00:30:13,333
Like, um, how would we say,
like, intellectual rigorousness
578
00:30:13,353 --> 00:30:14,153
in this space, right?
579
00:30:14,153 --> 00:30:18,003
I think, like, people, to me, the best
book on Bitcoin is, like, uh, Erik
580
00:30:18,183 --> 00:30:22,153
Voskiel's Crypto Economics, because,
like, uh, you know, I largely agree
581
00:30:22,153 --> 00:30:25,253
with most, almost everything he says,
not everyone does, but I don't think
582
00:30:25,313 --> 00:30:30,018
that you can argue that that is the
most rigorous Comprehensive body
583
00:30:30,018 --> 00:30:32,598
of work about this is what bitcoin
is and this is how it functions.
584
00:30:32,598 --> 00:30:35,718
You know these axiomatic truths as
he describes it It's a it's a whole
585
00:30:35,738 --> 00:30:39,618
system that all links together and
to return to like the religion talk I
586
00:30:39,628 --> 00:30:43,458
gave last year It's like if you look
at Christianity, right, you know,
587
00:30:43,458 --> 00:30:47,548
you have like baptism, Catholicism,
Protestantism all these kind of things
588
00:30:47,548 --> 00:30:49,078
right and they're it's so detailed.
589
00:30:49,078 --> 00:30:53,718
It's like well because in Ephesians 12 16
Jesus said this or that or whatever you
590
00:30:53,718 --> 00:30:57,528
should only wear a red shirt on Tuesdays
or something It's that level of detail of
591
00:30:57,528 --> 00:31:00,838
like They've thought about every aspect
of the Bible and what this should mean
592
00:31:00,838 --> 00:31:02,478
and they have like this detailed view.
593
00:31:02,718 --> 00:31:05,358
And I think there's a lot of value for
that because as I said, like, there
594
00:31:05,358 --> 00:31:09,398
are many different views in this, in
this spectrum about what works for
595
00:31:09,398 --> 00:31:13,308
Bitcoin and I think we win by having
this marketplace of ideas, but we
596
00:31:13,308 --> 00:31:14,373
don't win if they're like very pure.
597
00:31:14,373 --> 00:31:18,003
They're very poorly fleshed out ideas and
they're very kind of naïve or immature
598
00:31:18,213 --> 00:31:21,873
and when by all these different schools
of thought having the most rigorous,
599
00:31:22,183 --> 00:31:27,113
intense, deep body of work to help explain
and understand why you should look at
600
00:31:27,113 --> 00:31:29,743
Bitcoin from this angle or see it this
way or why it should be done this way.
601
00:31:30,183 --> 00:31:34,263
You're the, you're the second person
this week to, to say crypto, uh, crypto
602
00:31:34,708 --> 00:31:35,128
It's great.
603
00:31:35,198 --> 00:31:35,908
It's just crazy.
604
00:31:35,908 --> 00:31:38,628
It's not, not more, I mean, it's
a, it's a pretty dense book, right?
605
00:31:38,628 --> 00:31:41,098
You know, it's not for a beginner's
book, but it's crazy that it's
606
00:31:41,098 --> 00:31:42,928
not bigger in my mind, you know.
607
00:31:44,218 --> 00:31:48,028
someone should write a, you
know, new version of that.
608
00:31:48,233 --> 00:31:49,603
Yeah, that's, uh, yeah, very much
609
00:31:49,778 --> 00:31:51,068
I mean, but this is the thing, right?
610
00:31:51,118 --> 00:31:54,968
Is, is like, it's, it's rigorous because
I think, and why I really like it as
611
00:31:54,968 --> 00:31:59,018
well is it's the only book that goes that
level of depth and is thick and is, you
612
00:31:59,018 --> 00:32:00,808
know, really deep on this kind of stuff.
613
00:32:00,808 --> 00:32:01,968
And the whole point is like.
614
00:32:02,728 --> 00:32:05,898
And you see Erik on Twitter, he's
very much, he's like such a pedantic
615
00:32:05,898 --> 00:32:08,918
motherfucker about trapping someone
down about the way they say particular
616
00:32:08,918 --> 00:32:10,338
words, because it matters, right?
617
00:32:10,338 --> 00:32:11,118
It does matter, right?
618
00:32:11,378 --> 00:32:14,858
Like these loose definitions of what you
think this word means, what I think it
619
00:32:14,898 --> 00:32:18,768
means, makes me think that we're talking
the same language, but actually you, I
620
00:32:18,778 --> 00:32:21,658
haven't communicated to you effectively
what is inside my brain, right?
621
00:32:21,908 --> 00:32:25,128
And so like this level of detail is really
important for something like Bitcoin,
622
00:32:25,138 --> 00:32:29,578
because like imagine you're navigating
and you say, oh, it's, it's, it's
623
00:32:29,578 --> 00:32:31,348
that way, a hundred meters, it's fine.
624
00:32:31,348 --> 00:32:34,453
But if it's like, 300 kilometers,
you can end up in a very different
625
00:32:34,453 --> 00:32:38,223
place than if you said these, these
grid coordinates, you know, this
626
00:32:38,233 --> 00:32:39,583
GPS coordinate, stuff like that.
627
00:32:39,763 --> 00:32:43,423
So specificity is really, really
important and language is the, the
628
00:32:43,423 --> 00:32:47,953
map, the navigation system we use
to arrive at like a, a distance
629
00:32:47,953 --> 00:32:49,603
in the, uh, an idea in the future.
630
00:32:49,603 --> 00:32:51,223
And so, I think there's value to that.
631
00:32:51,553 --> 00:32:56,353
Yeah, and I think this is, human
action by Ludwig von Mises is dense
632
00:32:56,403 --> 00:33:00,573
and, and very meticulously written
for the exact same reason, right?
633
00:33:00,613 --> 00:33:01,973
You need this rigorous thing.
634
00:33:02,253 --> 00:33:06,983
And I know from writing a smaller book on
praxeology, it's really, it's really hard
635
00:33:06,983 --> 00:33:12,203
because you have to be very, very careful
with your words to get it right, uh, which
636
00:33:12,223 --> 00:33:16,838
is why I like writing, uh, Something like
the Inverse of Clown World more because
637
00:33:16,838 --> 00:33:18,608
I can be more expressive, you know.
638
00:33:19,363 --> 00:33:22,813
Uh, man, I've thought about doing the
book thing and maybe one day I will,
639
00:33:22,813 --> 00:33:25,633
but I'm like, oh man, I just, I can't
imagine what you have to go through to,
640
00:33:25,633 --> 00:33:29,053
to produce something of like this size,
which is not the largest book, like man.
641
00:33:30,073 --> 00:33:34,953
Wow, you know, hats off to people that
write a book, right, because, like I
642
00:33:34,953 --> 00:33:37,393
said, I've thought about it, but when
I've looked at what's involved, I'm like,
643
00:33:37,688 --> 00:33:39,538
Well, send us a DM and we'll help you.
644
00:33:39,558 --> 00:33:40,748
Heh heh heh heh
645
00:33:40,853 --> 00:33:43,113
maybe they will come about, I need to
write more, I mean, this is the way
646
00:33:43,113 --> 00:33:45,673
they say you do it, right, is like
you write a bunch of articles and you
647
00:33:45,673 --> 00:33:48,693
turn the articles into a book, right,
so I've kind of thought about maybe I
648
00:33:48,833 --> 00:33:50,913
can go down this road, but we'll see.
649
00:33:51,038 --> 00:33:52,268
Oh, looking forward to it.
650
00:33:52,268 --> 00:33:53,548
Heh heh heh heh.
651
00:35:49,642 --> 00:35:52,402
So what, uh, what do
you think of, of Nostr?
652
00:35:52,452 --> 00:35:55,842
Uh, the, the whole, the,
the, the combination of this
653
00:35:55,862 --> 00:35:57,512
Nostriga and Honeybadger.
654
00:35:57,542 --> 00:35:59,442
First of all, that was, it was
a brilliant move, I think, to,
655
00:35:59,472 --> 00:36:00,922
to attach the two together.
656
00:36:01,152 --> 00:36:04,202
Uh, there's, there's talk that the next
time they'll, they'll do that is they'll
657
00:36:04,202 --> 00:36:08,362
attach it to, uh, also Freedom Forum,
which is, which is also a very good idea.
658
00:36:08,362 --> 00:36:09,852
A different angle, but very good idea.
659
00:36:10,052 --> 00:36:13,452
But Nostr and Bitcoin are becoming
really intertwined these days.
660
00:36:13,682 --> 00:36:17,332
Uh, many, many applications that
were Bitcoin applications have now.
661
00:36:18,387 --> 00:36:23,497
Also become Nostr applications and yeah,
what do you see Nostr in the space here?
662
00:36:23,642 --> 00:36:26,562
Difficult for me to say because
like I've really wanted to sit down
663
00:36:26,562 --> 00:36:31,032
and really get my head technically
around Nostr and I haven't, right?
664
00:36:31,032 --> 00:36:34,012
You know, like I understand basically how
it works, but as far as like there's some
665
00:36:34,012 --> 00:36:38,182
critiques on Nostr which I would like to
have a more informed opinion on than I do.
666
00:36:38,527 --> 00:36:42,167
And, um, like, I know Peter Todd
reasonably well, and like, last night
667
00:36:42,167 --> 00:36:44,807
we were, I was saying, like, basically,
okay, just tell, tell me, you know,
668
00:36:44,867 --> 00:36:48,327
like, tell me what things is, so at
least when I get to look at this, I've
669
00:36:48,327 --> 00:36:52,337
got, because he's kind of anti, or anti
a lot of aspects of it, right, he thinks
670
00:36:52,337 --> 00:36:55,707
it doesn't work, um, so, I mean, based
on that, like I said, it's, it's not a
671
00:36:55,707 --> 00:37:01,107
nuanced, informed opinion, but I think,
um, my concern, perhaps, is that, like,
672
00:37:01,987 --> 00:37:05,807
It's actually not that good a protocol on
the, on the base level for certain things.
673
00:37:05,937 --> 00:37:10,447
Like it's ability to deliver
decentralized Twitter, all the millions
674
00:37:10,457 --> 00:37:13,977
of applications we have on mine for
Nostr at scale is going to be possible.
675
00:37:13,977 --> 00:37:18,302
And again, I can't say One way or the
other, but that's my concern about it.
676
00:37:18,322 --> 00:37:21,842
And, and one thing that returning to
what I was talking earlier about the
677
00:37:21,842 --> 00:37:25,362
subcultures and things like that,
fortunately in the Bitcoin space, I
678
00:37:25,362 --> 00:37:30,362
think we've got a little tendency to be
overly supportive and overly passionate.
679
00:37:30,362 --> 00:37:31,082
And I think that's.
680
00:37:31,532 --> 00:37:33,442
Definitely preferable to
the alternative, right?
681
00:37:33,442 --> 00:37:36,312
You want the space to be something where
people come from the outside and they
682
00:37:36,312 --> 00:37:41,072
feel like this is full of energy and love
and happiness and good times and smiles.
683
00:37:41,722 --> 00:37:42,572
That draws people in.
684
00:37:42,592 --> 00:37:45,182
And if it's the opposite and
people are too cynical or bitter
685
00:37:45,182 --> 00:37:49,142
or tough, right, it's not going to
pull more people into the space.
686
00:37:49,152 --> 00:37:49,802
That's what we need.
687
00:37:50,252 --> 00:37:52,952
But again, you know, I think there's
a bit of a lack in the space of
688
00:37:52,952 --> 00:37:56,317
people who are willing to Call out,
you know, say a spade's a spade.
689
00:37:56,317 --> 00:37:57,097
There's a problem here.
690
00:37:57,097 --> 00:37:58,027
We need to fix this.
691
00:37:58,317 --> 00:38:00,847
There's a bit of a lack with that and
that that would be the only thing I feel
692
00:38:00,847 --> 00:38:06,777
with with Nostr is You know, some people
I was talking to a friend of mine about
693
00:38:06,777 --> 00:38:10,527
this before and he described I mean, he's
kind of talking about the conferences
694
00:38:10,527 --> 00:38:12,227
thing but a bit of a circle jerk, right?
695
00:38:12,567 --> 00:38:17,702
And I, my only concern that I see as an
outsider with Nostr is that Is this like
696
00:38:17,702 --> 00:38:20,602
a science project and a bit of a circle
jerk where there's something where it's
697
00:38:20,602 --> 00:38:23,742
got a tiny amount of people and there's
all this energy and noise, but it's,
698
00:38:23,802 --> 00:38:27,012
it's all like, it's, it's its own self
contained thing, right outside this little
699
00:38:27,012 --> 00:38:30,772
bubble, no one cares and, and it's a
bunch of people celebrating how great they
700
00:38:30,772 --> 00:38:33,672
are creating this thing for themselves,
thinking it's a tool for the world.
701
00:38:33,842 --> 00:38:37,592
So, I mean, I think it is great and I'm
really interested in it primarily from the
702
00:38:37,592 --> 00:38:41,282
perspective of like, what to me is, this
is kind of what my talk about was about
703
00:38:41,282 --> 00:38:42,992
today about Bitcoin as performance art.
704
00:38:44,077 --> 00:38:48,097
Bitcoin isn't just about money, it's
also about telling a story, about showing
705
00:38:48,117 --> 00:38:51,337
an alternative narrative to what the
governments or corporations give us.
706
00:38:51,647 --> 00:38:55,107
And that narrative is about how we
can use technology and open source and
707
00:38:55,107 --> 00:38:58,767
things like this to create our own better
alternatives and we don't have to use
708
00:38:58,907 --> 00:39:00,177
what they tell us they have to use.
709
00:39:00,387 --> 00:39:04,647
And so I like Nostr in the sense that it's
like a, It's like the artistic inspiration
710
00:39:04,647 --> 00:39:08,117
of Bitcoin is created at Nostr, right,
so we're spiritually inspired by Bitcoin.
711
00:39:08,117 --> 00:39:11,597
It's like a lot of the lessons that
we've learned from Bitcoin have been
712
00:39:11,597 --> 00:39:15,037
applied to how Nostr is created,
right, it's kind of born of Bitcoin.
713
00:39:15,417 --> 00:39:20,317
And so to me, um, regardless of like
the reservations or the possible issues
714
00:39:20,317 --> 00:39:24,177
like I talked about before, to me what's
far more interesting is someone said,
715
00:39:24,177 --> 00:39:27,437
look, hey, Bitcoin works really well
at prioritizing decentralized money.
716
00:39:27,707 --> 00:39:29,687
How can we take the lessons
there and apply that to
717
00:39:29,877 --> 00:39:31,167
communication and other things?
718
00:39:31,167 --> 00:39:31,617
And I think.
719
00:39:32,017 --> 00:39:34,637
To me, that is a more important
thing, is like, if this can
720
00:39:34,637 --> 00:39:36,487
happen to many other technologies.
721
00:39:37,032 --> 00:39:37,852
It makes sense, right?
722
00:39:37,852 --> 00:39:40,342
Like, uh, in my talk, I talked
about the Liberator pistol
723
00:39:40,352 --> 00:39:41,652
being another example of this.
724
00:39:42,032 --> 00:39:45,522
Now, if you look at Cody Wilson,
he said, like, it was supposed
725
00:39:45,522 --> 00:39:46,602
to be a toy gun, a prop gun.
726
00:39:46,602 --> 00:39:49,472
It's not something where you really
think it's going to be like an AR 15.
727
00:39:49,732 --> 00:39:50,602
But that wasn't the whole point.
728
00:39:50,602 --> 00:39:51,842
The whole idea is here's something.
729
00:39:52,127 --> 00:39:54,317
Where it's going to get all over
the news and the media and people
730
00:39:54,317 --> 00:39:56,847
are going to start talking about and
thinking, you know, that the wheels
731
00:39:56,847 --> 00:39:59,917
start to turn the head of, hmm, 3D
printing and code, man, like, it's
732
00:39:59,917 --> 00:40:02,397
going to be impossible for governments
to stop all this kind of stuff.
733
00:40:02,397 --> 00:40:04,937
And when people start thinking about
that, the world starts changing, right?
734
00:40:05,247 --> 00:40:08,317
So I think Bitcoin is amazing money
and it's going to change the financial
735
00:40:08,317 --> 00:40:11,627
system, but perhaps what is better
is that it gets people thinking
736
00:40:11,627 --> 00:40:12,957
of, wow, we created our own money.
737
00:40:13,192 --> 00:40:16,172
What other stuff can we create
if we all work together and have
738
00:40:16,172 --> 00:40:17,212
a vision for the future, right?
739
00:40:17,602 --> 00:40:21,542
So to me that's, in some sense, like,
if Bitcoin failed as money, but it
740
00:40:21,542 --> 00:40:24,792
did that, I think that would be a
better victory than it not doing that
741
00:40:24,792 --> 00:40:25,762
and just being sound money, right?
742
00:40:26,212 --> 00:40:29,962
So that's, I think, is an important part
of Nostr and what I really look forward to
743
00:40:29,962 --> 00:40:32,232
with that is how that dynamic plays out.
744
00:40:32,537 --> 00:40:38,182
Yeah, um I've, I think I've
observed, observed a correlation
745
00:40:38,182 --> 00:40:41,852
between disagreeableness and
how early you were to Bitcoin.
746
00:40:42,422 --> 00:40:45,532
So like the first couple of
years, you get your Voskules
747
00:40:45,532 --> 00:40:46,932
and your Kavaios and what not.
748
00:40:47,302 --> 00:40:50,372
And the further you go down the
line, it's, it isn't until like
749
00:40:50,382 --> 00:40:54,047
2021, you get your Joe Halls and
your, You're nice people, right?
750
00:40:54,667 --> 00:41:00,287
So, so what do you, uh, and I think
the thing that enables the happy
751
00:41:00,287 --> 00:41:04,687
people 10 years down the line is
that the disagreeable people were
752
00:41:04,687 --> 00:41:06,137
so rigorous in the beginning.
753
00:41:06,137 --> 00:41:09,477
So you get the don't trust verify,
and then it builds in layers
754
00:41:09,917 --> 00:41:13,557
and the happy people can join
on the layers on top later on.
755
00:41:13,972 --> 00:41:14,482
Yeah, yeah, yeah,
756
00:41:14,527 --> 00:41:16,907
So, so have you, what's your, what's your
757
00:41:17,202 --> 00:41:19,142
Oh yeah, I mean, I think
you're totally right with that.
758
00:41:19,142 --> 00:41:23,232
I'd agree, um, and it kind of speaks
somewhat, I mean, I don't think
759
00:41:23,232 --> 00:41:26,702
this is really a problem, but it's a
little bit of a tragedy of the commons
760
00:41:26,722 --> 00:41:29,752
problem in Bitcoin, right, where,
Zach, you said the people that are
761
00:41:29,762 --> 00:41:32,752
doing, like, open source development
is perhaps the best example, right?
762
00:41:33,202 --> 00:41:36,222
You know, if we don't have, like, very
smart, talented people working full
763
00:41:36,222 --> 00:41:40,937
time on Bitcoin, You know, even if you
think it can be ossified, like, just
764
00:41:40,937 --> 00:41:43,687
if you understand software, right,
there's just this maintenance process
765
00:41:43,697 --> 00:41:46,607
that needs to happen, and there's not
someone keeping a close eye on that.
766
00:41:46,617 --> 00:41:49,117
It's very easy for Bitcoin to
break or to fall apart, right?
767
00:41:49,487 --> 00:41:52,027
Um, and so, but here's these
people, but there's no business
768
00:41:52,027 --> 00:41:54,897
model for open source development
or maintaining Bitcoin Core, right?
769
00:41:54,897 --> 00:41:56,727
There's no way, I mean, the
whole idea of Bitcoin is that
770
00:41:56,727 --> 00:42:00,377
it should never be a revenue
generative process as it is, right?
771
00:42:00,947 --> 00:42:03,367
So we need to think of an alternative
model, because it's all in our
772
00:42:03,367 --> 00:42:05,187
interests for Bitcoin to succeed.
773
00:42:05,352 --> 00:42:08,102
But we can't just create a business
and let it self perpetuate itself.
774
00:42:08,102 --> 00:42:11,082
We've got to come up with a different
model of how we can do that, right?
775
00:42:11,372 --> 00:42:13,832
So, you know, there's a, there's a
little bit of, all of us are like
776
00:42:14,392 --> 00:42:17,982
free riding on the work of open source
developers in that sense, right?
777
00:42:18,172 --> 00:42:21,262
And I think there's a little bit of
that when it comes to all these, you
778
00:42:21,262 --> 00:42:24,777
know, happy, joyous kind of people
and that like, um, I think a lot of
779
00:42:24,777 --> 00:42:27,857
them, particularly if you've been here
for a short amount of time, I think a
780
00:42:27,857 --> 00:42:32,427
lot of people are, have kind of like
stars in their eyes or their rose
781
00:42:32,427 --> 00:42:34,387
tinted glasses on about, like, um,
782
00:42:35,517 --> 00:42:38,127
You know, one thing I would definitely say
at the moment, and, um, you know, I've,
783
00:42:38,147 --> 00:42:42,412
I've, I've obviously just, um, finished
up working for a company, Uh, in the
784
00:42:42,412 --> 00:42:46,672
Bitcoin space is that, um, there's a lot
of people, I think the idea of a Bitcoin
785
00:42:46,672 --> 00:42:51,682
scam is a relatively new thing that people
aren't looking at, you know, like, uh, if
786
00:42:51,682 --> 00:42:57,792
you're charging 7, 000 to have a out of
alpha male retreat, you know, because this
787
00:42:57,792 --> 00:43:01,772
guy is associated with Bitcoin, um, that's
a scam, that's a fucking scam, you know,
788
00:43:01,772 --> 00:43:05,722
as far as, I mean, like, hey, maybe it's
being honest, uh, marketed honestly, but I
789
00:43:05,722 --> 00:43:09,282
mean, let's look at what's happening here,
it's, it's use, association with Bitcoin.
790
00:43:09,857 --> 00:43:12,387
You know, uh, it's, you know,
there's the things like, I
791
00:43:12,387 --> 00:43:13,627
like Bitcoin, buy my shitcoin.
792
00:43:13,627 --> 00:43:16,427
It's like, I like Bitcoin,
buy my other thing.
793
00:43:16,437 --> 00:43:17,297
Like, it's the next level.
794
00:43:17,340 --> 00:43:17,567
And so I
795
00:43:17,567 --> 00:43:18,787
why is that a scam though?
796
00:43:19,107 --> 00:43:21,987
Well, I mean, I think it's a scam in
that, like, if you look at the Okay,
797
00:43:21,987 --> 00:43:23,417
let's take that particular example there.
798
00:43:23,417 --> 00:43:25,837
If you look at the pricing of the
resort that was involved, the tickets
799
00:43:25,837 --> 00:43:27,077
are like twice the price, right?
800
00:43:27,077 --> 00:43:28,897
Yeah, I mean, it is in the
eye of the beholder, right?
801
00:43:28,937 --> 00:43:31,027
If you feel you're getting value
and you're happy to pay that
802
00:43:31,027 --> 00:43:32,587
thing, I mean, it's not a scam.
803
00:43:32,972 --> 00:43:37,922
But I mean, come on, like, uh, there's
other examples, taking that particular
804
00:43:37,922 --> 00:43:41,742
person, where, you know, there are
things where people are, or, you know,
805
00:43:41,742 --> 00:43:45,337
I think you see this a lot where,
um, People are like, uh, here is um,
806
00:43:45,647 --> 00:43:50,347
sound, sound food, or sound diet, or
like, open source this or that, right?
807
00:43:50,347 --> 00:43:54,337
You know, where it's, I mean, it's
not a scam, but you can see how this
808
00:43:54,337 --> 00:43:58,287
like, um, Bitcoin as a lifestyle
brand is being created, right?
809
00:43:58,287 --> 00:43:59,877
And people are trying to
market things which really have
810
00:43:59,877 --> 00:44:00,987
nothing to do with Bitcoin.
811
00:44:01,427 --> 00:44:06,577
And again, maybe they're saying this
is Bitcoin, but I feel that there
812
00:44:06,577 --> 00:44:10,867
is a lot of people using that as a
way to charge an overpriced price
813
00:44:11,247 --> 00:44:12,927
for an undervalued service, right?
814
00:44:13,167 --> 00:44:16,877
And so that's something which I see kind
of creeping into the space is a bit of
815
00:44:16,877 --> 00:44:18,757
that sociopath kind of behavior, right?
816
00:44:18,757 --> 00:44:19,917
And I think that's a bit of a risk.
817
00:44:20,042 --> 00:44:20,312
Yeah.
818
00:44:20,312 --> 00:44:24,182
The question is whether you draw the
line though, like an an overpriced
819
00:44:24,182 --> 00:44:28,112
thing is, is it really overpriced if
people are willing to pay the price?
820
00:44:28,117 --> 00:44:28,127
Yeah.
821
00:44:28,207 --> 00:44:28,317
yeah.
822
00:44:28,437 --> 00:44:29,597
I mean, you're correct, right?
823
00:44:29,597 --> 00:44:33,372
And I think, like, coming back to what I
was saying about the This is all a factor
824
00:44:33,372 --> 00:44:36,522
of, as Bitcoin gets bigger, you'll see
more and more of this, and it'll become
825
00:44:36,522 --> 00:44:39,702
more and more of a thing, you know, and,
and, and you're right, you know, like,
826
00:44:39,702 --> 00:44:42,122
what is the line, like, if people are
willing to pay for this, and they're
827
00:44:42,132 --> 00:44:45,802
happy, and they don't feel like they're
getting scammed, I mean, is it a scam,
828
00:44:46,212 --> 00:44:50,712
and I, I just think, like, how does this,
how is this related to Bitcoin, right,
829
00:44:50,712 --> 00:44:53,762
you know, and there's many other things
out there in the world that use, like,
830
00:44:53,762 --> 00:44:58,102
um, like, for example, ethical food, or,
you know, all this kind of stuff, where
831
00:44:58,102 --> 00:45:01,732
they associate it with something, We're
really, if you really were wanting to
832
00:45:01,732 --> 00:45:04,522
support this cause, you'd be better to
directly donate to this thing, right?
833
00:45:04,822 --> 00:45:07,712
But they try and create this
association to brand themselves, right?
834
00:45:07,712 --> 00:45:10,942
And as you said, you know, it's
not direct, but I mean, I think
835
00:45:10,942 --> 00:45:13,322
most people, if you explain this,
they get what I'm leading to
836
00:45:13,322 --> 00:45:14,472
and they understand the problem,
837
00:45:14,642 --> 00:45:17,647
But it, it is like quantum,
this and that, you know, . Yeah.
838
00:45:18,082 --> 00:45:18,322
Yeah.
839
00:45:18,322 --> 00:45:20,602
It's, it's, it, I mean, it's a difficult
one to discuss, but I mean, this is
840
00:45:20,602 --> 00:45:23,962
obvious, right, is with anything as
it grows, like all the other stuff we
841
00:45:23,962 --> 00:45:27,382
talked about, like the scams are obvious
and as they get bigger, you know, this,
842
00:45:27,382 --> 00:45:31,312
the, the things are harder and higher
to directly say it is, and you can feel
843
00:45:31,312 --> 00:45:34,902
something that's right off and wrong and
not quite right, but it's a lot harder
844
00:45:34,902 --> 00:45:36,222
if you to articulate and nail it down.
845
00:45:36,222 --> 00:45:39,522
I mean, this is the way all things go,
right, is the bigger and the larger,
846
00:45:39,522 --> 00:45:40,842
more associated complex it gets.
847
00:45:41,292 --> 00:45:44,382
The more involved the, the scams,
if we're gonna call them scams, get
848
00:45:44,652 --> 00:45:45,477
that, that would be what I think.
849
00:45:45,762 --> 00:45:46,102
Mm
850
00:45:46,854 --> 00:45:51,594
No, I mean the tough part about you
kind of finding that and actually
851
00:45:51,594 --> 00:45:57,364
this is a good example in this case
because Rob brought a lot of people
852
00:45:57,404 --> 00:46:01,694
into Bitcoin with particularly his
Sailor series and actually my first
853
00:46:01,694 --> 00:46:05,434
real touchpoint with like a real
Bitcoiner was him on Lex Friedman.
854
00:46:05,654 --> 00:46:06,904
Literally, that was my first.
855
00:46:07,364 --> 00:46:10,164
Bitcoin maxi actually go down
the rabbit hole thing and
856
00:46:10,164 --> 00:46:11,444
people coming into the space.
857
00:46:11,594 --> 00:46:15,784
I had no idea about the bit cloud stuff
like zero idea about the bit cloud stuff.
858
00:46:16,014 --> 00:46:20,794
And so then I have no idea that he's got
this reputation under the hood that isn't
859
00:46:20,834 --> 00:46:24,324
isn't there, you know, and so it's just
it's hard for people coming into the space
860
00:46:24,324 --> 00:46:28,879
to, I guess, to understand who is the Who
is the right people and, and people with
861
00:46:28,879 --> 00:46:34,999
influence and influencers is the correct
word here are are re regarded highly
862
00:46:34,999 --> 00:46:39,469
and, and they're, what they put out into
the, the world by people who are new to
863
00:46:39,469 --> 00:46:42,979
the space is, is it's important to get
the right message out there, you know.
864
00:46:43,039 --> 00:46:49,639
And I, I, I think you have to, to, to,
uh, to judge people from their, like.
865
00:46:50,104 --> 00:46:52,944
Are they a net benefit or a net detriment?
866
00:46:53,004 --> 00:46:56,114
Like, that's, that's the key,
like, but it's tricky sometimes
867
00:46:56,154 --> 00:46:58,274
because people are a bit of both.
868
00:46:58,354 --> 00:47:01,584
Of course they are, like, and
I think to some extent, sort
869
00:47:01,584 --> 00:47:03,014
of everyone is guilty of that.
870
00:47:03,064 --> 00:47:03,594
Like, uh.
871
00:47:03,939 --> 00:47:06,249
And I, and I agree and, and
it's a great point, right?
872
00:47:06,249 --> 00:47:09,599
You know, the guy has like a large reach
and there are many such people, right, in
873
00:47:09,599 --> 00:47:13,619
the space where, in my personal opinion,
they're just, it's just garbage, trash.
874
00:47:13,919 --> 00:47:17,669
You know, people that are Bitcoin
but they can't actually talk in
875
00:47:17,669 --> 00:47:21,249
any sort of detail or articulation
about what Bitcoin really is, right?
876
00:47:21,279 --> 00:47:24,754
But then being presented as experts
and these are the The megaphones
877
00:47:24,754 --> 00:47:25,934
that people are hearing, right?
878
00:47:26,294 --> 00:47:30,364
Um, and so, you know, like, there is
an element of, of, it comes back to the
879
00:47:30,364 --> 00:47:32,974
same stuff as we talked about before,
like, getting more people in the door
880
00:47:33,164 --> 00:47:37,214
is obviously, I think, a benefit, but at
what point do you dilute the message such
881
00:47:37,214 --> 00:47:42,294
where, you know, uh, let's take the Miami
or Nashville conference as an example.
882
00:47:42,919 --> 00:47:46,729
How many hours of talks are going on
there and how many of them are really
883
00:47:46,729 --> 00:47:50,129
adding value and how many of them more
just like here is a face and where this
884
00:47:50,129 --> 00:47:53,249
face brings people in the door, but
what they said was just hot air, right?
885
00:47:53,279 --> 00:47:54,699
You know, it was garbage.
886
00:47:54,859 --> 00:47:57,549
And would that, I mean, if you ask
me, these people should be listening
887
00:47:57,549 --> 00:48:00,819
to Erik Voskil and reading crypto
economics, which they're not going to do.
888
00:48:01,139 --> 00:48:04,969
But, but I feel like there is more a
duty of stewardship from all of us.
889
00:48:05,689 --> 00:48:08,019
To try and steer in that right direction.
890
00:48:08,019 --> 00:48:11,129
Part of that is calling out things,
which I think are clearly unaligned,
891
00:48:11,299 --> 00:48:15,619
Yeah, but there's a devil's argument
to be made here too, because arguably,
892
00:48:16,369 --> 00:48:21,209
Bitcoin conferences in general have
become more high signal over time.
893
00:48:21,529 --> 00:48:27,679
Like, in 2017, you had, like, there
were no real Bitcoin conferences, there
894
00:48:27,679 --> 00:48:29,170
were just these blockchain bullshit
895
00:48:29,559 --> 00:48:30,059
Mm hmm.
896
00:48:30,119 --> 00:48:35,684
So from a certain point of view,
it is getting Like, the signal
897
00:48:35,684 --> 00:48:37,554
to noise ratio is getting higher.
898
00:48:37,579 --> 00:48:37,869
Mm hmm.
899
00:48:37,869 --> 00:48:42,709
Yeah, I mean, it's a hard, and this is,
I mean, the fact that we're discussing
900
00:48:42,709 --> 00:48:44,809
this, I think, is like the beauty, right?
901
00:48:44,809 --> 00:48:49,289
It's like, I have heard very, very
few people having these conversations
902
00:48:50,079 --> 00:48:54,849
Maybe like kind of leading around this
point, but not directly discussing this
903
00:48:54,849 --> 00:48:58,349
as like a analytically, objectively
as a social phenomenon, right?
904
00:48:58,349 --> 00:48:58,639
You know,
905
00:48:58,874 --> 00:48:59,464
No, it's great.
906
00:48:59,549 --> 00:49:02,839
and um, and like, you know, maybe
you are, you're, you're totally
907
00:49:02,839 --> 00:49:03,989
right and I'm totally wrong, right?
908
00:49:03,989 --> 00:49:06,729
Like these people are, I should
just stop being such a, you
909
00:49:06,729 --> 00:49:08,099
know, such a negative Nancy.
910
00:49:08,299 --> 00:49:09,899
And these people are
good for things, right?
911
00:49:10,129 --> 00:49:14,159
But, but we need to have this
discussion and decide, and well,
912
00:49:14,189 --> 00:49:17,159
better articulate what this happy
medium between the two is, right?
913
00:49:17,159 --> 00:49:17,479
You know?
914
00:49:17,849 --> 00:49:20,019
And that, that's, that's the
thing which I think is missing.
915
00:49:20,019 --> 00:49:22,519
And just simply by having this
conversation, discussing this
916
00:49:22,519 --> 00:49:24,849
stuff, getting it out and getting
more nuanced, I think it's part
917
00:49:24,849 --> 00:49:25,989
of getting the job done, right?
918
00:49:26,099 --> 00:49:31,119
When, you know, if maybe next time Robert
Breloves does his Alpha of, Art of Alpha
919
00:49:31,119 --> 00:49:35,494
2, I'm going to be like, Well, actually,
when I look at it, it's a benefit because
920
00:49:35,494 --> 00:49:36,944
we had this conversation, right, you know?
921
00:49:37,094 --> 00:49:41,334
Yeah, the sequel is obviously
going to be named Art of the Beta.
922
00:49:43,774 --> 00:49:48,384
Well, anyway, I think it's a great
discussion, and it's like, people
923
00:49:48,384 --> 00:49:49,704
should talk more about this.
924
00:49:50,624 --> 00:49:53,904
Because, yeah, there is a trade off,
and I don't think we disagree, I
925
00:49:53,934 --> 00:49:55,374
think we're on the same page here.
926
00:49:55,964 --> 00:50:01,244
I'm just mostly taking the devil's
advocate position for, to get the debate
927
00:50:01,244 --> 00:50:05,034
going because I think it's, it's, uh,
it's very much a subject that should
928
00:50:05,044 --> 00:50:08,484
be vocalized more and aired more.
929
00:50:08,854 --> 00:50:09,604
Absolutely.
930
00:50:09,634 --> 00:50:11,884
Because diluting the message is bad.
931
00:50:11,894 --> 00:50:12,744
And that, that is.
932
00:50:14,029 --> 00:50:19,089
Like, well, we talk about ethics and
tactics and whatnot with the pod all
933
00:50:19,089 --> 00:50:22,879
the time, and like, well, what we
agree on and align on so much, it's
934
00:50:22,879 --> 00:50:28,049
like, we want, there is nothing more
important than integrity, like, I,
935
00:50:28,049 --> 00:50:31,539
this, I love the Scarface quote, you
know, all I have in this world is my
936
00:50:31,549 --> 00:50:35,769
word and my balls, and they don't break
for no one, and I try to live by that,
937
00:50:36,039 --> 00:50:38,129
and like, I think, have I ever ever.
938
00:50:38,259 --> 00:50:41,819
Had I ever taken the bag of shit
coins during these last five years,
939
00:50:41,819 --> 00:50:43,769
I would be nothing at this point.
940
00:50:43,769 --> 00:50:46,029
I've seen it so many
times over and over again.
941
00:50:46,299 --> 00:50:49,989
People turning from intellectuals
to ultimate fighters, for
942
00:50:49,989 --> 00:50:51,509
instance, with the same moustache.
943
00:50:51,889 --> 00:50:52,089
Yeah.
944
00:50:52,089 --> 00:50:54,119
A
945
00:50:54,224 --> 00:50:56,224
And it's, to me, it's crazy.
946
00:50:56,224 --> 00:50:57,244
I've thought the exact same thing.
947
00:50:57,244 --> 00:51:01,689
It's crazy where, on the one hand, these
people talk about Bitcoin is sound money
948
00:51:01,689 --> 00:51:05,829
for generations and this is a thousand
year mission and they don't see them
949
00:51:05,829 --> 00:51:10,469
doing this stuff of like, yeah, to me, um,
there's been many times where I thought,
950
00:51:10,579 --> 00:51:13,749
uh, you know, like when I started speaking
at conferences and things like this, if
951
00:51:13,749 --> 00:51:17,869
I really started going deeper on this
thing, maybe I could make more of a thing
952
00:51:17,869 --> 00:51:22,359
of it or whatever, but I think I like,
I want to slowly build my, my brand in
953
00:51:22,359 --> 00:51:26,649
that sense over like 10 years, like, like
do things and do only do things right.
954
00:51:26,829 --> 00:51:28,039
Exactly, exactly dude.
955
00:51:28,039 --> 00:51:29,999
That's like all these
memes we throw around.
956
00:51:30,254 --> 00:51:33,654
But I mean maybe that speaks to, again,
this whole point I keep returning to
957
00:51:33,654 --> 00:51:38,234
is like, they're all empty platitudes
with people actually not deeply thinking
958
00:51:38,244 --> 00:51:41,774
about, you know, calling, having something
that can clearly articulate and point
959
00:51:41,774 --> 00:51:44,814
out, this is in direct contradiction
to this, but because the thinking is
960
00:51:44,814 --> 00:51:48,764
so sloppy, you know, people don't even
realize that they're, they're doing that.
961
00:51:49,239 --> 00:51:52,219
Like people, people want
the fast, fast buck.
962
00:51:52,219 --> 00:51:55,774
And it's, it's, it's a part, it's
a, it's like a I think that's a real
963
00:51:55,774 --> 00:52:01,134
side effect or like, uh, a result of
the fiat mindset and the fiat rot in
964
00:52:01,134 --> 00:52:03,514
people's brains over so many years.
965
00:52:03,809 --> 00:52:06,569
my mind so much in terms of like, I
mean, I guess everyone's got to eat,
966
00:52:06,569 --> 00:52:10,219
right, you know, but, but, surely if
you've got Bitcoin, like, you're good,
967
00:52:10,219 --> 00:52:12,839
right, if you really believe in Bitcoin,
right, you know, maybe not now, but
968
00:52:12,939 --> 00:52:15,909
if you really believe in Bitcoin, then
we're all going to be super fucking
969
00:52:15,909 --> 00:52:19,769
rich, right, in 10 years or whatever,
and so in that 10 years, you know, if
970
00:52:19,769 --> 00:52:22,159
you got a little bit more money, it's
not going to matter anywhere near as
971
00:52:22,159 --> 00:52:25,849
much as like, if people knew, if you had
that old boys network of the people that
972
00:52:25,849 --> 00:52:28,829
are here right now in Bitcoin, and they
knew that you were always a, you know,
973
00:52:29,989 --> 00:52:33,309
Trustable, a person with high integrity
for 10 years over all these things.
974
00:52:33,609 --> 00:52:34,409
Imagine the value.
975
00:52:34,439 --> 00:52:35,779
That is an incredible value,
976
00:52:35,874 --> 00:52:36,314
No, no, no.
977
00:52:36,524 --> 00:52:40,304
It's like, uh, honesty and
integrity are really, that's
978
00:52:40,314 --> 00:52:41,764
really the currency of the future.
979
00:52:41,934 --> 00:52:44,904
And that's, I think that aligns
with Bitcoin so well because,
980
00:52:45,319 --> 00:52:47,239
It is this base layer of truth.
981
00:52:47,274 --> 00:52:50,829
It, it is actually integrity
quantified, if you will.
982
00:52:51,369 --> 00:52:55,509
So, so it aligns so well and I,
I think that, yeah, reputation is
983
00:52:55,509 --> 00:52:59,169
everything and, and it's all tied
to authenticity and integrity.
984
00:52:59,924 --> 00:53:02,924
Well, and, and I mean, first of
all, the one thing is that, that's
985
00:53:02,924 --> 00:53:04,874
the noster thing there as well.
986
00:53:04,874 --> 00:53:06,224
The Web of trust idea.
987
00:53:06,374 --> 00:53:08,594
I mean, IM implementation stuff.
988
00:53:08,654 --> 00:53:10,394
Is, is that's, that's valid.
989
00:53:10,394 --> 00:53:13,904
Like if we've, we've had our own
concerns about the architecture
990
00:53:13,904 --> 00:53:17,534
and, uh, haven't really talked to
any hardcore skeptics that, that
991
00:53:17,534 --> 00:53:19,094
actually have thought about this hard.
992
00:53:19,094 --> 00:53:24,434
But still the, the web of trust thing
is, is amazing in terms of, in terms of
993
00:53:24,464 --> 00:53:28,004
this portable web of trust that you can
take from application to application.
994
00:53:28,489 --> 00:53:29,519
And hold on to that.
995
00:53:29,519 --> 00:53:32,489
And so I mean, I think that's
just going to amplify that effect.
996
00:53:32,499 --> 00:53:35,879
But my other comment from from
earlier was, the talk I did
997
00:53:36,049 --> 00:53:39,149
at Noob Day was basically just
leaning into Bitcoin, how to do it.
998
00:53:39,149 --> 00:53:41,569
Because for me, I've been
in the space two years.
999
00:53:41,979 --> 00:53:45,679
And so much has just happened
from saying yes to stuff and,
1000
00:53:46,089 --> 00:53:49,259
and putting in and putting in the
work and I'm not tooting my horn.
1001
00:53:49,749 --> 00:53:52,299
Too hard when I'm, when I'm saying
that, but the, the point about it
1002
00:53:52,299 --> 00:53:55,589
is just like, do the work, like
you say, and I mean, things can
1003
00:53:55,589 --> 00:53:57,979
happen a lot faster than, than you
1004
00:53:58,139 --> 00:53:59,459
and there are no shortcuts.
1005
00:53:59,999 --> 00:54:03,009
just by having the integrity
and, and, and doing the work with
1006
00:54:03,254 --> 00:54:03,564
Yeah.
1007
00:54:03,564 --> 00:54:07,534
And you can't just cling on to
this or that influencers ideas.
1008
00:54:07,534 --> 00:54:08,224
That doesn't work.
1009
00:54:08,234 --> 00:54:10,324
You need to, you need to
actually study the thing.
1010
00:54:10,324 --> 00:54:10,524
And
1011
00:54:10,729 --> 00:54:11,549
Slay your heroes.
1012
00:54:12,799 --> 00:54:15,749
Yeah, I mean I, again, something
I talked about in the talk that I
1013
00:54:15,809 --> 00:54:21,269
did today is like the whole idea of
what Bitcoin is, is like a different
1014
00:54:21,839 --> 00:54:23,729
philosophy around technology, right?
1015
00:54:23,729 --> 00:54:27,244
You know, we have The systems view
of technology and the tools view of
1016
00:54:27,244 --> 00:54:30,774
technology is technology a system
whereby you follow like a more or less
1017
00:54:30,774 --> 00:54:35,714
a recipe or a set of instructions and
the software does everything for you and
1018
00:54:35,714 --> 00:54:37,844
it's like pressing a button and getting
something out the other end, right?
1019
00:54:38,384 --> 00:54:41,274
And that has its place, but I mean,
I think Bitcoin is a different type
1020
00:54:41,274 --> 00:54:46,404
of technology in that it requires,
uh, like you to learn to, to wield
1021
00:54:46,404 --> 00:54:50,184
it, to understand that the value is
in the, the, the time and energy that
1022
00:54:50,204 --> 00:54:51,654
you have to invest to learn about it.
1023
00:54:52,254 --> 00:54:55,284
Because if you don't learn it, then
someone else is making these decisions for
1024
00:54:55,284 --> 00:54:59,344
you, and the whole point of Bitcoin is, is
to educate yourself and master it, right?
1025
00:54:59,704 --> 00:55:04,034
An analogy might be, um, you know,
hundreds of years ago, slightly
1026
00:55:04,034 --> 00:55:07,694
romanticized, um, example, but
nonetheless, I think that the metaphor
1027
00:55:07,694 --> 00:55:11,284
is, is there, that hundreds of years
ago, like, to be able to kill someone,
1028
00:55:11,284 --> 00:55:14,854
like to be a knight or whatever, you
had to spend a long amount of time
1029
00:55:14,854 --> 00:55:16,504
learning how to master a sword, right?
1030
00:55:16,504 --> 00:55:19,534
And what would work for you is
one will exactly work for me.
1031
00:55:19,534 --> 00:55:20,604
It's about your body.
1032
00:55:21,099 --> 00:55:21,819
Staff and,
1033
00:55:21,884 --> 00:55:24,184
you, you would probably have
to practice less, right?
1034
00:55:24,859 --> 00:55:27,479
but I mean, it's, it's all
about your, your, um, you know,
1035
00:55:27,589 --> 00:55:28,839
understanding yourself, right?
1036
00:55:28,839 --> 00:55:30,389
And you're never going
to be a better swordsman.
1037
00:55:30,429 --> 00:55:32,189
I'm never going to be a better
swordsman than you if I don't
1038
00:55:32,229 --> 00:55:33,529
really understand myself.
1039
00:55:33,829 --> 00:55:35,829
And then to project myself
through the sword, right?
1040
00:55:36,179 --> 00:55:39,879
Now today, you know, any moron
in an hour can learn how to
1041
00:55:39,949 --> 00:55:41,479
have a rifle and shoot people.
1042
00:55:41,749 --> 00:55:45,149
And I think, um, again, it's somewhat
romanticized, but I still think
1043
00:55:45,149 --> 00:55:46,299
there's a good amount of truth to this.
1044
00:55:46,299 --> 00:55:50,399
And that, like, I think we are in
a much worse position by having the
1045
00:55:50,399 --> 00:55:55,189
power to kill given to anyone who knows
how to work a very simple machine.
1046
00:55:55,689 --> 00:55:57,859
Versus that being reserved to
people that go through the work
1047
00:55:57,859 --> 00:56:00,699
and therefore learn to master
themselves and understand themselves.
1048
00:56:00,709 --> 00:56:03,509
There's a degree of, you're never
going to be able to kill people unless
1049
00:56:03,509 --> 00:56:06,569
you're able to pass these personal
tests and verse the effort, right?
1050
00:56:06,839 --> 00:56:10,299
And I think the same thing should
apply to technologies like bitcoin,
1051
00:56:10,299 --> 00:56:11,089
like with our money, right?
1052
00:56:11,369 --> 00:56:13,729
Because when you don't do that,
you're just a blindness follower
1053
00:56:13,729 --> 00:56:14,739
of someone else's instructions.
1054
00:56:14,739 --> 00:56:17,889
But when you actually have to sit
down and learn, there's value to
1055
00:56:18,019 --> 00:56:19,849
making people go through that process.
1056
00:56:20,119 --> 00:56:24,109
And so I think, like, the whole idea of
bitcoin is that it should be a little.
1057
00:56:24,464 --> 00:56:28,134
Complicated and a little hard and you
know you shouldn't try and dumb it
1058
00:56:28,134 --> 00:56:30,964
down too much because there's a certain
point where it kind of kills what the
1059
00:56:30,974 --> 00:56:33,974
whole point of Bitcoin is which is
to go through that kind of process
1060
00:56:33,974 --> 00:56:37,554
and we will have a better world if
everyone understands how to use Bitcoin.
1061
00:56:37,574 --> 00:56:40,754
But again, if imagine it's ten people
in the world are the only people
1062
00:56:40,754 --> 00:56:44,104
that really understand Bitcoin and
everyone else is just using you
1063
00:56:44,494 --> 00:56:45,904
know, Binance or something like that.
1064
00:56:45,904 --> 00:56:47,074
Are we any better than we are now?
1065
00:56:47,074 --> 00:56:47,994
I don't think we are, you know.
1066
00:56:47,994 --> 00:56:51,714
So the whole point is making sure that
everyone in the world or a much greater
1067
00:56:51,714 --> 00:56:54,864
amount of people in the world Are the
people who are able to be the banks and,
1068
00:56:54,874 --> 00:56:56,954
and the PayPals and the things like that.
1069
00:56:57,044 --> 00:56:59,904
And, and if you don't like
it, you can easily make your
1070
00:56:59,904 --> 00:57:01,314
own PayPal like this, right?
1071
00:57:01,314 --> 00:57:02,614
And I think that's the value of it.
1072
00:57:03,144 --> 00:57:06,854
And part of that is forcing people to
be responsible and to learn themselves.
1073
00:57:06,864 --> 00:57:08,844
And if they don't go through
that, we don't change anything.
1074
00:57:08,864 --> 00:57:11,334
So it's a counterpoint.
1075
00:57:12,564 --> 00:57:15,474
Are you familiar with the word Kdi Ling
1076
00:57:17,669 --> 00:57:21,564
This, this is a word that our friend
Ralphie told us in Prague, and the,
1077
00:57:21,564 --> 00:57:26,874
the definition is to purposefully
travel without any particular
1078
00:57:26,874 --> 00:57:29,394
destination, possibly meandering.
1079
00:57:29,844 --> 00:57:35,424
And, and, and some, someone, someone
asked people on Twitter to, to, uh,
1080
00:57:35,904 --> 00:57:38,444
and describe Bitcoin with one word.
1081
00:57:38,854 --> 00:57:41,444
And I think that's a perfect
word, it's coddywompling.
1082
00:57:43,334 --> 00:57:45,634
It's purposeful, but you
don't know where it leads.
1083
00:57:45,929 --> 00:57:46,499
yeah, yeah, yeah.
1084
00:57:47,099 --> 00:57:50,069
You know, it's like these, all these
now, you know, the journey is a
1085
00:57:50,069 --> 00:57:51,239
destination, all this kinda stuff.
1086
00:57:51,239 --> 00:57:52,949
But I mean, I think there is
value, there's, there's truth
1087
00:57:52,949 --> 00:57:53,909
to that with Bitcoin, right.
1088
00:57:53,909 --> 00:57:54,269
You know?
1089
00:57:54,719 --> 00:57:55,019
Yeah.
1090
00:57:55,831 --> 00:58:00,751
Rigel, this has been a great, uh,
discussion, lively, uh, I, I think,
1091
00:58:00,751 --> 00:58:05,131
I think, uh, do you have anything
else big on your mind that you're
1092
00:58:05,251 --> 00:58:07,471
excited to talk about or, or share?
1093
00:58:07,531 --> 00:58:08,101
No, no.
1094
00:58:08,101 --> 00:58:10,201
I mean, um, no, that's pretty much it.
1095
00:58:10,201 --> 00:58:13,231
Like, um, you know, this is, this
has been a really good talk and
1096
00:58:13,231 --> 00:58:16,561
I, and I, and I feel like I don't
listen to too many Bitcoin podcasts
1097
00:58:16,561 --> 00:58:17,581
these days, but I feel like.
1098
00:58:18,126 --> 00:58:21,676
I don't think these sort of conversations
are being had about these sort of
1099
00:58:21,676 --> 00:58:25,406
things and, and uh, just thank you for
giving the opportunity to hopefully,
1100
00:58:25,436 --> 00:58:28,946
hopefully whoever's watching this has
shared similar, felt similar value
1101
00:58:28,946 --> 00:58:31,236
from it, but thank you for giving
the opportunity to talk about these
1102
00:58:31,236 --> 00:58:33,666
things with you guys because they've
been great counterpoints as well.
1103
00:58:34,446 --> 00:58:38,856
Pleasure is, uh, on our side,
like, uh, yeah, right back at you.
1104
00:58:39,146 --> 00:58:41,896
So, so anyway, will you want
to send our listeners, like,
1105
00:58:41,981 --> 00:58:46,841
Um, no, just I'm on Twitter,
um, and Telegram, if you want to
1106
00:58:46,841 --> 00:58:49,364
get me directly, on Coinsure and
1107
00:58:49,726 --> 00:58:50,436
Telegram.
1108
00:58:50,631 --> 00:58:55,341
yeah, yeah, yeah, hot topic
today, isn't it, yeah, yeah,
1109
00:58:55,466 --> 00:58:55,796
have gone
1110
00:58:56,031 --> 00:59:00,071
um, I'm trying to remember what
my, uh, I just added the, um.
1111
00:59:00,846 --> 00:59:02,436
thing in, uh, Signal.
1112
00:59:02,466 --> 00:59:04,986
But anyway, you can get my
Signal if you message me there.
1113
00:59:04,996 --> 00:59:10,206
Um, and, um, and my Nostr, I
believe, is on there as well.
1114
00:59:10,216 --> 00:59:12,576
And if not, I'm sure you can find
me through things on Nostr there.
1115
00:59:12,576 --> 00:59:15,436
I'll tell you my input, but that's
a little messy to, to say on a
1116
00:59:15,441 --> 00:59:18,931
We make, we make that joke sometimes, oh,
you're not going to tell us your mPub?
1117
00:59:19,101 --> 00:59:20,071
But, yeah, anyway.
1118
00:59:20,148 --> 00:59:21,091
that
1119
00:59:21,326 --> 00:59:25,566
you're going to get a book, I mean, uh,
order the book now, uh, within two weeks
1120
00:59:25,566 --> 00:59:27,926
and get a free set of steak knives, maybe.
1121
00:59:28,456 --> 00:59:29,686
And, uh, yeah.
1122
00:59:29,806 --> 00:59:33,206
Thank you, Rigel, for coming on
to the Bitcoin Infinity Show.
1123
00:59:33,241 --> 00:59:34,261
Thank you so much for having me.
1124
00:59:34,271 --> 00:59:34,811
Appreciate it.
1125
00:59:34,811 --> 00:59:35,171
Thank you.
1126
00:59:35,271 --> 00:59:35,901
Thank you.
1127
00:59:35,951 --> 00:59:36,071
you.
1128
00:59:36,271 --> 00:59:36,691
Thank you.
1129
00:59:36,781 --> 00:59:38,381
This has been the Bitcoin Infinity Show.
1130
00:59:38,391 --> 00:59:39,261
Thank you for listening.