Peter Dunworth - Bitcoin Infinity Show #124

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Peter, welcome to the
Bitcoin Infinity Show.

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Thanks for joining us again.

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It's a pleasure to be with you two.

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Missed you.

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Likewise, um, how are you cunts,
bastards and kangaroos and

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platypuses doing down in Australia?

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How do I answer that one?

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It's so good.

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You know what?

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Life is beautiful down here.

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They've lifted the jail like restrictions,
so we're free to move around.

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We can leave the country when we
want to, which is nice, and I've

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got to say it's a cold time of
year in the southern hemisphere.

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It's our winter time and it's been
a wet and a cold one relative to

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what we normally have, but I'd
like to say that life is beautiful.

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Good to hear.

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Can you quantify the cold?

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Because, uh, you know, we,
we, we, we've got cold here.

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Yeah, we got proper cold.

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I'm talking about 13 degrees Celsius.

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It's really chilly.

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yeah.

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Yeah, you might be, that might be
warmer than, than me right now,

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uh, in, you know, the middle of
July here in Finland, but you know.

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All good.

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move in, it's good.

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Yeah.

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Hey,

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saw Dave Grohl on the Foo Fighters play
in Bergen, Norway once, and the first

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thing he said was, this is summer to you?

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He couldn't believe it, that the people
considered that weather to be summer.

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yeah, we need to work on that.

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Yeah.

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So what do we want to
talk about today, Peter?

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What rabbit hole, uh, what sub cavern of
the rabbit hole are we exploring today?

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I was hoping you'd help me on this, but
one thing that's been, you know, sort

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of running around my head, which I think
I'm in the right spot to have a good

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chat about this, is thinking about why
Bitcoin has the incentive structure that

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it does, and its ability, uh, really to
unite, more of mankind than anything else.

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And there are a few things that sort of
Running around my head in that we've got

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the tragedy of the commons, which is a
major problem when there's a common good.

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No one looks after it.

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Yet, here we have Bitcoin,
which is for 8 billion people.

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And it seems to be looked after pretty
well by, you know, all accounts.

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The other thing with that, and this is
what I find really interesting about

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the incentive structures with Bitcoin,
is that Bitcoin, for a lot of people,

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takes on a religious type quality.

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And where a lot of people become
obsessed by and one of the things

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that's sort of been playing around
in my head is why is that so?

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And I can't help but come back to the
Maslow's needs hierarchy that it fulfills

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a whole host of those base layer needs.

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And once you've got those base
layer needs felt, All looked after,

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then you can grow spiritually and
mentally, um, to fulfill those other

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needs that are at a higher scale.

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And because so many people in the
Bitcoin community are relying on that

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foundational principle of those base
layers being built on Bitcoin, it

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really doesn't matter which side of the
political aisle you come from or religious

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spectrum that you, you want to adopt.

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Because foundational base layer of being.

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You know, your money is basically Bitcoin,
and that sorts out and lays the foundation

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for you to achieve greater things.

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Then, everything else
is downstream of that.

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You know, Bitcoin fixes this again.

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Yeah, I, I, I think Maslov's, uh,
Ladder of Needs is now on a Bitcoin

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standard, it's Maslow's escalator.

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We talked about that last time.

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It's just like a cheat code to, you
know, race up it faster than you can.

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And this is where So, one of the
conversations, listening back to our last

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conversation was, you know, you've got
the easiest job in the world, I think

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you said, as a financial advisor or
investment advisor, talking about Bitcoin.

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It's like, just buy Bitcoin and do
nothing, and that ironically is the

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hard part though, the doing nothing.

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Yeah, some people have a hard time
doing nothing, uh, myself included.

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Uh, so yeah, about the incentive
structure, the only part of that,

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that I'm not fully, you know, the,
the, the whole thesis of Bitcoin, uh,

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when they're in your head, uh, anyone,
uh, trying to steal them, uh, if you

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don't, if you simply just keep them
in your head, they'll get nothing.

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So the incentive to, to attack
someone goes down, right?

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The, the, the peaceful,
peaceful revolution thing.

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However, for miners, Uh, still, or
mining pool owners, let's say, uh,

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or big mining farms still do have
an incentive to attack one another.

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At least, um, if they go, grow large
enough and you have structural,

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like, nation level big things.

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Uh, so, is there, is
there a problem there?

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Um, And also with miner centralization
and all of this, like, I'd love to

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hear your take on, on, um, now these,
um, spammy miners that, uh, or the

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mining pools allowing for spam.

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So, so that the individual miners are,
are merely hash salesmen and not really

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miners at all, since they don't know
what, what, what block they're mining on.

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Um, so is there a problem there
and how big is that problem?

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Is it?

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Good question.

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Personally, I'd like to think that
I'm a free market guy, so I'd like

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to see the market solve that problem.

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And I think in some way, shape, or form,
we are seeing the market solve that.

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In that, you know, if we look at the,
what was it, the sat v byte, you know, the

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cost of transacting around the halving.

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You know, we were up over 1,
000 sat VBITE for those early

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blocks after block 840, 000.

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And now, you know, we did
some transactions this week

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that were sub 6 sat VBITE.

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So that is a 99 percent drop
or 98 percent drop in fees.

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And that's all been
sorted out by the market.

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We haven't had to coerce.

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Any of the minors, it's all been sorted
out through natural market attrition.

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And this is where I think the spam
problem, in a broader sense, it really

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gets solved by the market that high
fees are a solution to high fees.

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Yeah, that's, that's, uh,
that's the hopeful take.

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Uh, but if you, if you go to mempool
space and look at like the latest

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block and what, how much of it is
this data is quite a lot still.

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And all of that data is making the
Initial cost of firing up a node

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more expensive for the node runner.

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Right.

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So, and or the, the, the
downloading of the time chain.

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Like, uh, when you syn it now you go up
to, to, uh, 2022 and then it gets slow

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Yeah, really slow.

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And if, if anyone's out there
watching mempool or like just

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pull it up and have a look, it's
actually, it's mesmerizing to watch.

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And I sound like such a dork saying
this, but I sincerely love watching.

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Cools, but like blocks being
created and to conceptualize this

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without a mempool in front of us,
what you're referring to there.

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Is what you see is these tiny little
blocks, um, that typically have 0.

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0001 of a bitcoin in it, but they
take up an improportionate amount

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of the block space because there's
so much data attached to it.

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And that's the spamming
that you referred to.

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I think the Node Runners, the technology's
getting better and the rest of it, and

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hey, you know, if you look at the nodes,
the number of nodes that have, that are

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on the network, Uh, they continually and
steadily rise, so I think that's probably

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proportionate to an improvement in
technology and, you know, maybe bandwidth

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is getting better, so that's going to be
less of a problem, but the other question

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that you posed on the mining front, mining
is the fiercest competition on earth.

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Open to anyone with electricity and
miners to do it, or, you know, as

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you guys like to say, someone with a
pen and pad who can add up quickly,

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um, that, to me, is the competition.

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And this is where I look at the
Realistically, the free market solving

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Bitcoin mining on a long term basis.

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I'm really fearful for a lot of Bitcoin
miners because I think it's the most

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intense competition that we see.

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And if you look in the market,
um, you have a host of the

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Bitcoin miners moving to AI.

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Why are they moving to AI?

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Because there's more predictable revenues
and there's, there's, there's, Probably a

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more predictable future, and when it comes
to the listed miners anyway, they want to

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see predictability in revenues, whereas
when it comes to Bitcoin mining, it's,

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it's a wild ride, and this is where I look
at the cost structure, the OPEX and CAPEX

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structure of the Bitcoin mining network.

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It realistically will end up being a
state owned enterprise, is what I think,

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like an infrastructure asset that every
country will run for themselves, so

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that they're assured of getting their
piece of the block or having their

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transactions loaded on the block.

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And this is where, from a free market
perspective, I think governments

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around the world will start
subsidizing that as a way to compete.

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And that competition gets fiercer.

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It doesn't get any easier.

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It gets much more intense, I
think, when the nation states

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enter and they've got free energy.

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huh?

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Let's, let's think about that for a
while because that's sort of allows for

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those, uh, government miners to, uh.

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To do all the ESG bullshit and
accept payments, uh, offline and,

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and all, and all of the, the trash
that the, uh, the inscriptions and

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ordinance people are doing right now,
like paying, um, paying miners off

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band and, um, yeah, the, the mining
pools not paying out the entire, um.

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Some of the fee to the miners, but keeping
a lot for themselves and stuff like that.

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I think that's, that's even easier.

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Like you, you get all these,
external influences, um, when

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you have the state level mining.

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So, so sort of like now in a high
fee environment now, well, it's

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lower right now, but like rewind
the clock six months, you, you have

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Bitcoin still functioning, but, but.

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Only every 100 block or something
do you get your transaction through

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because it's, it's, it's all filled up
with these, others, other transactions

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from players that have less of an
incentive to, to have Bitcoin's

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longevity in the back of their minds.

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Um, but, but Do you see a risk
there with state owned mining?

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in the short term, yes.

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In the long term, no.

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Short term, those incentives can be
corrupted, but long term, I think everyone

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will be incentivized to play by the rules
and maximize the outcomes that they're

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looking to do, because at the end of the
day, and if you, I agree with your point

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in principle, if the governments aren't
going to make an investment in Bitcoin,

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And that concern that you've got, I think,
is alleviated dramatically when you look

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at the fact that they could put Bitcoin
on the balance sheet, because then they've

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got a counterweight to the investment that
they're making in the mining network, in

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that they could just stop investing in
the mining and actually buy the underlying

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and be far more profitable at it.

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So it's, it's a counterweight
to the concern that.

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It's going to be a runaway mess with a
network full of spam because at the end

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of the day, I think the governments are
going to have to maximize the outcomes

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that they want to do because there are
going to be, rational players in the

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marketplace who, if the governments don't
compete on a rational level, they're going

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to get outplayed and they're going to
have less Bitcoin and they'll lose power.

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And I look at this and think, the
obvious example that, you know,

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we like to, you know, Say, holds a
light for Bitcoin at the moment is El

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Salvador and what Bukele's done with
his Bitcoin mining and you look at his

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policy when it comes to, not only is
he wanting to mine Bitcoin, but he's

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putting that on the balance sheet.

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So he needs to assess, is the mining
going to be more beneficial or do we

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need to just buy more Bitcoin with it?

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Because there's a cost associated
with both of those things.

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And from a government perspective,
globally, I look at El Salvador and

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think, I would really like to see him in
Australia, running Australia, and he seems

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like one of the most logical leaders that
we've got globally, who understands the

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game theory of Bitcoin, and he's winning.

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Like, he's just winning.

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And so, he doesn't really have any
competition now, though, but when

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competition enters the market,
then there's a decision to make.

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And then there's probably a
constriction on his decisions as to,

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you know, what he has to maximize for.

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And then that's another decision
making, and this is where the forcing

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function of good decision making
is absolutely brutal in Bitcoin.

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And I dare say we've all suffered
the fate of selling Bitcoin.

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And then looking at the cost of
that and we still calculate how much

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the 5 bitcoin or 10 bitcoin we sold
10 years ago would be worth today.

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And the governments are no different.

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They just haven't been playing
the game as long as we have.

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So everyone plays the game at some point
in time and we'll learn those lessons.

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Yeah.

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Yeah.

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00:13:27,319 --> 00:13:28,489
That's the game theory.

221
00:13:28,569 --> 00:13:36,279
Uh, uh, but so, but how do El
Salvador custody their Bitcoin?

222
00:13:36,309 --> 00:13:37,279
I can't remember.

223
00:13:37,389 --> 00:13:41,309
Uh, they, they do use a
custodian, um, I believe.

224
00:13:42,009 --> 00:13:46,714
Uh, so, and this is like, uh, This is
another, like, philosophical question.

225
00:13:46,724 --> 00:13:50,454
How, how will a government,
take control of their keys?

226
00:13:50,474 --> 00:13:52,404
A government is just a
group of people, right?

227
00:13:52,444 --> 00:13:57,094
And so, so, those coins do not belong
to the people of the country, they

228
00:13:57,094 --> 00:13:59,179
belong to an X amount of people.

229
00:13:59,731 --> 00:14:03,511
Keyholders and like, will they
have multi sig solutions or

230
00:14:03,661 --> 00:14:05,231
will they just use a custodian?

231
00:14:05,271 --> 00:14:09,151
And then in that case, well, not
your keys, not your coins, right?

232
00:14:09,151 --> 00:14:13,751
So some guy owns the Bitcoin and
not the government of country X.

233
00:14:14,021 --> 00:14:16,971
And some guy can fuck off and
go buy an island somewhere.

234
00:14:17,051 --> 00:14:24,421
So, uh, given that isn't big enough
increase in the, in the purchasing power.

235
00:14:24,871 --> 00:14:31,101
Uh, so, so I, I, I foresee a lot of
chaos, uh, when central, when banks

236
00:14:31,101 --> 00:14:36,188
and governments and stuff try to,
uh, acquire Bitcoin, because they

237
00:14:36,188 --> 00:14:37,358
don't know how to do it properly.

238
00:14:37,358 --> 00:14:39,308
I mean, paper Bitcoin
is paper Bitcoin, right?

239
00:14:39,308 --> 00:14:41,220
So that, so, how do you see that?

240
00:14:41,728 --> 00:14:46,048
I see it being chaotic, just like all
of our experiences up until this date

241
00:14:46,178 --> 00:14:48,838
with our own experience with Bitcoin.

242
00:14:49,078 --> 00:14:54,148
And this is the problem with Bitcoin is
that there is not only a proof of work

243
00:14:54,148 --> 00:15:00,048
required to prove and claim a block
reward, but there is a proof of work

244
00:15:00,048 --> 00:15:04,158
required to be a responsible Bitcoiner
and be capable of looking after your

245
00:15:04,158 --> 00:15:05,638
own Bitcoin and self casting this.

246
00:15:05,638 --> 00:15:10,558
And this is where, uh, The institutions
coming to Bitcoin, uh, are going to have

247
00:15:10,558 --> 00:15:14,818
to learn very quickly or leverage off the
experience of others in this space, and if

248
00:15:14,848 --> 00:15:21,136
they don't, they're going to learn, um, a
very costly lesson that the kind of fuck

249
00:15:21,136 --> 00:15:25,046
around and find out is going to happen at
a nation state level, it's going to happen

250
00:15:25,046 --> 00:15:28,416
at a corporate level, it will happen at
a bank level, there are going to be these

251
00:15:28,416 --> 00:15:31,896
failures, and this is where, as Bitcoiners
who have been in this space for a long

252
00:15:31,896 --> 00:15:36,946
time, I think we have a responsibility
to talk about this because We've seen it

253
00:15:36,946 --> 00:15:41,536
all before and sadly our little goldfish
memories that we're all operating on, you

254
00:15:41,536 --> 00:15:44,786
know, we don't really have a memory past
four years, we kind of forget things.

255
00:15:45,166 --> 00:15:48,706
We laugh at goldfish having a five
second memory, but, you know, humans

256
00:15:48,706 --> 00:15:52,836
are operating with about a four year
memory for pain, so, yeah, ironically

257
00:15:52,836 --> 00:15:56,776
four years is the same time it takes
to, you know, go through a full Bitcoin

258
00:15:56,806 --> 00:16:01,326
epoch, and the same mistakes are going
to get basically rehashed over and

259
00:16:01,326 --> 00:16:04,526
over again, but probably on a much
bigger scale because you've got much

260
00:16:04,526 --> 00:16:06,681
bigger, Bigger entrance to the market.

261
00:16:06,731 --> 00:16:11,321
So I hope that's not the case, but I
just don't see how people are going

262
00:16:11,321 --> 00:16:13,991
to learn at those different levels
unless these mistakes are made.

263
00:16:14,806 --> 00:16:15,956
No, I totally agree.

264
00:16:16,696 --> 00:16:18,376
It's going to be fun to see it play out.

265
00:16:18,626 --> 00:16:23,366
I might disagree with we having a
responsibility to make governments,

266
00:16:23,596 --> 00:16:25,376
to help governments hold Bitcoin.

267
00:16:26,556 --> 00:16:31,276
I'm kind of looking forward to seeing
governments finding out after fucking up.

268
00:16:31,346 --> 00:16:31,646
Like,

269
00:16:32,511 --> 00:16:34,691
Oh no, I've got no
responsibility to the government.

270
00:16:35,001 --> 00:16:39,451
I've got none whatsoever, but if anyone
asks for my help, a fellow bitcoiner asks

271
00:16:39,451 --> 00:16:43,171
for my help, I feel a responsibility,
a sense of duty, that if they've

272
00:16:43,171 --> 00:16:47,081
gotten this far and they've found me
and say, hey, I want help, it's like,

273
00:16:47,701 --> 00:16:49,391
great, we definitely want to help.

274
00:16:49,456 --> 00:16:50,576
I

275
00:16:50,761 --> 00:16:54,271
there's another incentive structure
at play here that is very beautiful.

276
00:16:54,281 --> 00:16:59,541
And that's like all the people potentially
involved in making this decision that

277
00:16:59,551 --> 00:17:04,381
my government, our government or our
corporation is going to adopt Bitcoin.

278
00:17:05,321 --> 00:17:11,011
They do all have an incentive to front
run that, you know, and acquire Bitcoin

279
00:17:11,021 --> 00:17:14,011
as individuals themselves first.

280
00:17:14,701 --> 00:17:19,571
And probably more of it than what
they are buying for the institution.

281
00:17:19,571 --> 00:17:24,766
Thanks So like, uh, this is the funny
thing, because like, there's always

282
00:17:24,796 --> 00:17:26,756
the individual first in Bitcoin, right?

283
00:17:27,194 --> 00:17:31,114
so even if a president of country X
decides that I'm gonna use this tax

284
00:17:31,114 --> 00:17:36,344
money to buy Bitcoin, to put Bitcoin
on the balance sheet, he has probably

285
00:17:36,919 --> 00:17:41,509
Acquired some himself first and told
all his friends and family first.

286
00:17:41,749 --> 00:17:48,229
Uh, and I think that's, that's just
beautiful because like you can't get

287
00:17:48,239 --> 00:17:52,979
around that everyone's an individual and
that Bitcoin's for enemies and all that.

288
00:17:53,624 --> 00:17:57,914
like that idea and one of my favorite
sites is the Nancy Pelosi Tracker.

289
00:17:58,594 --> 00:18:04,314
And to digress for a minute, which
is exactly that point, um, we've had

290
00:18:04,314 --> 00:18:08,264
clients invested in NVIDIA for a long
time, um, to the point where they're

291
00:18:08,264 --> 00:18:10,344
sitting on a 4, 000 percent return.

292
00:18:10,524 --> 00:18:12,634
And NVIDIA terrifies me.

293
00:18:12,744 --> 00:18:17,459
So, um, although we've been very
lucky or fortunate to, I've put client

294
00:18:17,489 --> 00:18:21,189
money to work in NVIDIA and seen
outrageous returns, which is about

295
00:18:21,199 --> 00:18:24,169
the only thing that has outperformed
Bitcoin in that period, but it has.

296
00:18:24,789 --> 00:18:30,459
I've been terrified that on a balance of
probabilities, the chart looks outrageous

297
00:18:30,519 --> 00:18:32,769
and it kind of needs to come off.

298
00:18:33,089 --> 00:18:36,779
And I was talking to clients in the
last two weeks and said, look, we need

299
00:18:36,779 --> 00:18:38,379
to take some money off the table here.

300
00:18:38,839 --> 00:18:42,309
Um, they agreed, we all agreed,
and then last week, or it might

301
00:18:42,309 --> 00:18:45,769
have been earlier this week, um,
the Nancy Pelosi tracker said that

302
00:18:46,129 --> 00:18:48,909
Nancy has bought a lot of NVIDIA.

303
00:18:49,679 --> 00:18:52,829
And it's totally changed
my thinking on NVIDIA.

304
00:18:52,929 --> 00:18:56,269
Now I'm like, Oh, dammit,
what, what does she know?

305
00:18:57,026 --> 00:19:00,476
so I'm sitting here having conversations
with clients over millions of

306
00:19:00,476 --> 00:19:05,496
dollars of decisions to be made
about this one single stock and

307
00:19:05,526 --> 00:19:06,906
we've all agreed to get rid of it.

308
00:19:07,006 --> 00:19:09,696
And they said, is there any
reason we wouldn't do this?

309
00:19:09,766 --> 00:19:15,726
And I'm like, well, there is one and she's
proven to be the best fund manager on

310
00:19:15,726 --> 00:19:20,606
earth and her trades very rarely lose and
she outperforms the market by, you know,

311
00:19:20,606 --> 00:19:22,406
she beats every hedge fund by a mile.

312
00:19:23,090 --> 00:19:25,640
maybe we should tone down the
decision not to sell all of it.

313
00:19:25,650 --> 00:19:26,820
We'll just sell half of it.

314
00:19:26,860 --> 00:19:30,650
So, you know, I, I make light of it,
but it was a serious conversation

315
00:19:30,650 --> 00:19:34,880
and consideration to the point that,
you know, if we have the ability to

316
00:19:34,880 --> 00:19:37,930
see what, you know, these decision
makers are doing, and, and they will

317
00:19:37,930 --> 00:19:42,670
be doing it at scale with much larger
sums that they're in charge of, boy

318
00:19:42,670 --> 00:19:45,460
oh boy, that's the game theory that
they're going to help their friends

319
00:19:45,460 --> 00:19:48,675
and family and say, yeah, we're putting
into work, You know, a trillion dollars

320
00:19:48,675 --> 00:19:49,895
tomorrow, you might want to buy some.

321
00:19:50,539 --> 00:19:56,139
we, we have a German friend or, uh,
that, uh, told me about his, career

322
00:19:56,139 --> 00:19:59,089
as an investor in various stocks.

323
00:19:59,129 --> 00:20:02,579
He was day trading for like 15 years.

324
00:20:03,719 --> 00:20:08,199
Every day, just looking at the charts and
trying to play them as best as he could.

325
00:20:08,689 --> 00:20:14,329
And then, um, he calculated how much money
he had made being honest to himself, like

326
00:20:14,329 --> 00:20:18,439
15 years down the line and made a giant
spreadsheet and included all the taxes

327
00:20:18,459 --> 00:20:21,219
and all, all the banking fees and whatnot.

328
00:20:21,704 --> 00:20:23,544
And he figured out that
he made a hundred euros.

329
00:20:24,914 --> 00:20:25,534
Damn!

330
00:20:26,524 --> 00:20:27,254
Damn!

331
00:20:27,644 --> 00:20:29,474
so, so then he thought, why, why is that?

332
00:20:29,484 --> 00:20:32,674
Why is it so, so damn near zero?

333
00:20:32,734 --> 00:20:39,984
And, uh, yeah, his thesis is that You
need, either you need, uh, to know a

334
00:20:39,984 --> 00:20:45,234
regulator, like if you do this over a
long time, it's just like, um, if you

335
00:20:45,234 --> 00:20:50,464
take the, the risks and the, um, the
probability that it will play out that

336
00:20:50,464 --> 00:20:54,954
way is extremely high because the only
thing that can, you, you, you basically

337
00:20:54,954 --> 00:21:01,424
need insider information to be able to,
to win, uh, over this casino that we call

338
00:21:01,424 --> 00:21:03,844
the markets over the long run, right?

339
00:21:03,994 --> 00:21:10,120
Uh, So you need either to, to, uh, be
an insider in the actual company that

340
00:21:10,120 --> 00:21:15,680
you're buying stocks from, or, or you
need to know, or be a regulator, um,

341
00:21:15,790 --> 00:21:20,869
or you need to be insanely lucky, uh,
and that's unfortunately how the game

342
00:21:22,029 --> 00:21:26,199
is rigged when we're, especially when
we have a money printer, uh, skewing

343
00:21:26,269 --> 00:21:31,549
all of this and creating all of this
artificial monopolies and whatnot, uh,

344
00:21:32,159 --> 00:21:33,909
the regulators having too much power.

345
00:21:34,569 --> 00:21:37,809
I agree with that, and particularly,
if your friend was day trading,

346
00:21:38,557 --> 00:21:39,737
that's an impossibility.

347
00:21:40,297 --> 00:21:44,677
You're never beating the market in that,
because you're dealing with flash trades,

348
00:21:44,767 --> 00:21:48,817
you're dealing with market insiders,
and there's no edge in that time frame.

349
00:21:48,987 --> 00:21:50,857
It's very difficult, if not impossible.

350
00:21:51,662 --> 00:21:55,092
No, no, but this was, uh,
quite, uh, quite a while ago.

351
00:21:55,092 --> 00:21:58,892
So I think that during maybe the last
couple of years there, they, uh, the

352
00:21:58,902 --> 00:22:05,652
algorithms started taking over and out
competing the individual day traders.

353
00:22:06,263 --> 00:22:11,203
this is what I love about Bitcoin and
one of my all time favorite books was

354
00:22:12,243 --> 00:22:17,213
a book on Jesse Livermore's life called
Reminiscences of a Stock Operator and

355
00:22:17,333 --> 00:22:19,293
it was written over a hundred years ago.

356
00:22:19,313 --> 00:22:23,483
If you haven't read it and you're curious
about the stock market, it's a fabulous

357
00:22:23,483 --> 00:22:29,423
book and it talks about the world's, the
world's best short seller and the two,

358
00:22:29,663 --> 00:22:34,253
the two pieces of information I gleaned
out of that was outside of being it's

359
00:22:34,273 --> 00:22:40,116
extremely difficult to be successful
at it, he, he said that the money

360
00:22:40,116 --> 00:22:43,516
wasn't in the buying or the selling,
the money was made in the sitting.

361
00:22:44,226 --> 00:22:47,766
And I can't think of a more
perfect analogy to what, you

362
00:22:47,766 --> 00:22:50,036
know, the money is made in the
sitting when it comes to Bitcoin.

363
00:22:50,636 --> 00:22:53,006
It's not made in the trading, it's
made in the sitting there for eight

364
00:22:53,076 --> 00:22:57,606
years and, you know, taking your
punishment and dealing with the cortisol.

365
00:22:58,076 --> 00:23:01,446
Ups and downs of, you know, the
most volatile asset ever invented

366
00:23:01,446 --> 00:23:03,956
and then waking up eight years
later where it's gone 100x.

367
00:23:04,786 --> 00:23:05,946
That's where the money's made.

368
00:23:06,446 --> 00:23:09,366
And the other thing that came out of
this book where I just kind of put the

369
00:23:09,366 --> 00:23:12,966
book down and thought, well, that ends
all hopes and aspirations of being a

370
00:23:12,966 --> 00:23:14,426
trader and making a fortune out of it.

371
00:23:14,816 --> 00:23:18,576
This is the best short trader to
ever live and he died bankrupt.

372
00:23:19,350 --> 00:23:23,410
So, Note to self, like, if the best
can't make money out of it, like,

373
00:23:24,041 --> 00:23:26,921
well, that, that was Warren
Buffett's key to success, right?

374
00:23:26,921 --> 00:23:29,301
Not selling for a couple of decades.

375
00:23:29,985 --> 00:23:30,475
he didn't.

376
00:23:32,025 --> 00:23:37,475
and um, no, that's
fascinating, uh, where was I?

377
00:23:37,475 --> 00:23:38,405
I had a thought here.

378
00:23:38,545 --> 00:23:39,845
Luke, help me out here.

379
00:23:40,505 --> 00:23:44,005
well, actually, I think this is an
interesting one about the sort of

380
00:23:44,055 --> 00:23:45,615
stay humble and stack sats thing.

381
00:23:45,615 --> 00:23:50,705
I saw a critique today on on Twitter
about the stay humble stack sats thing.

382
00:23:51,055 --> 00:23:51,615
That's it.

383
00:23:51,825 --> 00:23:52,825
That's where I was going.

384
00:23:53,145 --> 00:23:53,525
totally.

385
00:23:53,525 --> 00:23:58,745
And so and so I think I think the critique
that I saw it, it was interesting,

386
00:23:58,745 --> 00:24:00,635
but I think it missed the point.

387
00:24:00,635 --> 00:24:03,665
The critique was basically that
you need to sell your Bitcoin to

388
00:24:03,665 --> 00:24:04,365
do stuff with it at some point.

389
00:24:04,365 --> 00:24:05,865
And you need to sell your Bitcoin
to do stuff with it at some point.

390
00:24:06,135 --> 00:24:07,365
Yeah, obviously.

391
00:24:07,665 --> 00:24:11,165
The point of stay humble, stack
sats is not stay humble, stack

392
00:24:11,175 --> 00:24:13,005
sats, and never touch the sats ever.

393
00:24:13,005 --> 00:24:15,355
It's just, it's don't trade.

394
00:24:15,755 --> 00:24:18,775
That's, that's basically what
stay humble, stack sats is.

395
00:24:18,775 --> 00:24:22,605
It's don't, don't trade, don't
shitcoin, don't try and beat the

396
00:24:22,605 --> 00:24:28,745
market, but when you plan to save
some money for the future, whether

397
00:24:28,765 --> 00:24:32,595
that's six months or eternity, uh,
just stay humble and stack sats.

398
00:24:32,595 --> 00:24:33,675
That's it.

399
00:24:34,060 --> 00:24:37,350
this is the same tweet I
saw, and my reaction to it is

400
00:24:37,420 --> 00:24:39,930
exactly that, like, yeah, sure.

401
00:24:40,965 --> 00:24:46,685
Use your Bitcoin to create the life
you want to lead, like, uh, but the way

402
00:24:46,685 --> 00:24:51,675
to do that is to stay humble and sack
sass for like 10 years and then do it.

403
00:24:52,175 --> 00:24:53,435
You don't do it right away.

404
00:24:53,575 --> 00:24:57,695
You, you, you, you use, you use
it to like, first you let the

405
00:24:57,695 --> 00:25:01,275
purchasing power go up and then you
can use a minuscule amount of your

406
00:25:01,275 --> 00:25:03,365
net worth to live your dream life.

407
00:25:03,745 --> 00:25:06,555
And, and I think that's the way
the best way to go about it.

408
00:25:07,566 --> 00:25:11,996
I couldn't agree more, and this is where
Bitcoin, I think, offers the opportunity

409
00:25:12,026 --> 00:25:18,586
to do this better than any other asset
I've seen, and I had this analogy the

410
00:25:18,586 --> 00:25:25,456
other day that Bitcoin is Analogous to,
um, or creating wealth is analogous to

411
00:25:25,486 --> 00:25:29,636
being shot out of a cannon, and Bitcoin
is the biggest cannon that you can

412
00:25:29,676 --> 00:25:31,246
find that will shoot you the furthest.

413
00:25:31,856 --> 00:25:34,585
And if you think about it, and
this is where, having these

414
00:25:34,585 --> 00:25:38,085
discussions with clients, they've
hodled Bitcoin for eight years.

415
00:25:38,670 --> 00:25:41,470
And now they're sitting on a ton of
Bitcoin that they want to make lifestyle

416
00:25:41,470 --> 00:25:46,120
investment decisions with and they've
elevated themselves to a new level of

417
00:25:46,655 --> 00:25:49,685
economic reality that they never would
have been able to achieve without Bitcoin.

418
00:25:50,525 --> 00:25:55,835
And I think it's analogous to being
shot out of a cannon and all of

419
00:25:55,835 --> 00:25:59,955
a sudden you go from being at sea
level to a thousand feet in the air.

420
00:26:00,810 --> 00:26:04,730
And you're looking down thinking, oh
my goodness, it's a long way down.

421
00:26:04,780 --> 00:26:06,080
I don't want to fall all that way.

422
00:26:06,210 --> 00:26:10,400
I want to take some chips off the
table to buy a house or pay off debt

423
00:26:10,450 --> 00:26:14,860
or make sure that, you know, I can
basically not hurt myself when I fall.

424
00:26:15,190 --> 00:26:18,070
And this is where you, you know,
if you want to go up, you want

425
00:26:18,070 --> 00:26:21,070
to concentrate your decision into
the best asset that you can find.

426
00:26:21,140 --> 00:26:22,910
Personally, I think that's Bitcoin.

427
00:26:23,470 --> 00:26:26,445
But when you've reached a level that
you don't want to fall from, I hope

428
00:26:26,445 --> 00:26:30,815
you did, then taking chips off the
table to pay a home or, or do some

429
00:26:30,815 --> 00:26:34,905
of the lifestyle things that you talk
about is akin to literally deploying

430
00:26:34,905 --> 00:26:38,515
a parachute when you've reached where
you want to get to, to make sure that

431
00:26:38,585 --> 00:26:41,835
you can come down and land safely if
something catastrophic were to happen.

432
00:26:41,925 --> 00:26:45,975
And this is where, for me, Bitcoin
represents the opportunity to move

433
00:26:45,985 --> 00:26:50,245
up as, Maslow's Needs Hierarchy
in the fastest way possible, and

434
00:26:50,635 --> 00:26:54,465
there's a common misconception here
in the investment community that most

435
00:26:54,525 --> 00:26:59,175
investment advisors want to talk to
you about a diversified portfolio, and

436
00:26:59,175 --> 00:27:02,301
I'm sitting there thinking, oh, why?

437
00:27:02,391 --> 00:27:05,061
Like, diversified portfolios
does not get you wealthy.

438
00:27:05,371 --> 00:27:07,411
If you want to ascend that wealth Ladder.

439
00:27:07,841 --> 00:27:10,691
The fastest way to do it is to
find the best asset and put as

440
00:27:10,691 --> 00:27:12,491
much as you can stomach into it.

441
00:27:13,461 --> 00:27:15,851
Once you've gotten to the level
that you want to, then you think

442
00:27:15,861 --> 00:27:19,861
about diversifying because no
one has made money diversifying.

443
00:27:19,901 --> 00:27:21,921
Well, not no one has
made money diversifying.

444
00:27:22,001 --> 00:27:25,581
A lot of people have gotten very
comfortable diversifying and for the

445
00:27:25,591 --> 00:27:28,831
broader population that is the best
thing to do from a long term basis.

446
00:27:30,211 --> 00:27:33,461
The extreme wealth is
through concentrated bets.

447
00:27:33,861 --> 00:27:35,671
And I look at all the
wealthiest people on earth.

448
00:27:36,111 --> 00:27:38,381
They've all done it
through their own endeavor.

449
00:27:38,901 --> 00:27:42,811
Jeff Bezos, Elon Musk,
they're concentrated bets.

450
00:27:43,603 --> 00:27:49,373
Yeah, and the diversification is
sort of a, uh, it's for security,

451
00:27:49,373 --> 00:27:52,093
like for safety, once you're there.

452
00:27:52,723 --> 00:27:57,233
So it's not the path, it's what you do
when you reach the destination, sort of.

453
00:27:57,753 --> 00:27:57,973
Yep.

454
00:27:58,033 --> 00:27:59,803
And this is the thing
with, say, Warren Buffett.

455
00:27:59,813 --> 00:28:03,193
Everyone always references
Warren Buffett diversification.

456
00:28:04,573 --> 00:28:05,333
That's not what he does.

457
00:28:05,953 --> 00:28:09,723
He put, he took concentrated bets
in the best companies he could find

458
00:28:10,163 --> 00:28:12,363
and he put all his money in there.

459
00:28:12,463 --> 00:28:16,503
And then sadly, he got so good at doing
that, that when he put money to work

460
00:28:16,503 --> 00:28:18,323
in a company, it changed the market.

461
00:28:18,823 --> 00:28:21,183
And it totally redefined the
dynamics of the investment

462
00:28:21,183 --> 00:28:22,293
decision that he was making.

463
00:28:22,723 --> 00:28:26,303
So now, all of a sudden, he becomes
the market, and the only thing

464
00:28:26,303 --> 00:28:27,753
that he can do is invest in Apple.

465
00:28:27,753 --> 00:28:32,934
And ironically, in the 60 years investing
career that he's had, 50 percent or more

466
00:28:32,934 --> 00:28:36,474
of his returns have come in the last six
or seven years from investing in Apple.

467
00:28:37,404 --> 00:28:38,274
That's outrageous.

468
00:29:38,687 --> 00:29:45,007
So, so how much of the problems with the
stock market in general in the world,

469
00:29:45,367 --> 00:29:51,197
uh, and these inflated, stocks that are,
are, are worth way too much, probably

470
00:29:51,197 --> 00:29:54,907
because it's, it's all, everyone's
speculating on the same assets and so on.

471
00:29:55,147 --> 00:29:57,788
How much of that, to do with broken money?

472
00:29:57,908 --> 00:30:02,143
Uh, how much does broken money gets
the, um, The blame for that and why

473
00:30:03,068 --> 00:30:04,748
I think the large majority of it is.

474
00:30:04,928 --> 00:30:07,168
In the Bitcoin community,
it's well, well understood.

475
00:30:07,278 --> 00:30:11,868
It's a very clearly defined problem
that there is an easy solution for, but

476
00:30:11,868 --> 00:30:16,473
in the broader, the broader consensus
is very slow to understand that.

477
00:30:16,813 --> 00:30:22,893
And this is where the increased liquidity
uh, over the last 50 years, the moving

478
00:30:22,893 --> 00:30:27,543
off the gold standard, and then the
ability to print ad infinitum is, is a

479
00:30:27,543 --> 00:30:29,613
huge concern because it dilutes everyone.

480
00:30:29,833 --> 00:30:33,483
And if we take it down to
our most basic of needs.

481
00:30:34,308 --> 00:30:38,168
Let's just say we were all at a pub
together, and it was, you know, we were

482
00:30:38,168 --> 00:30:43,498
having beers, having a drink, and the
publican, when he was pouring beers,

483
00:30:43,498 --> 00:30:47,967
decided to top our beer up with 40
percent water and dilute our drink.

484
00:30:49,077 --> 00:30:51,017
We would be rioting in the streets.

485
00:30:51,377 --> 00:30:55,597
We would be so filthy that someone would
try and rip us off of our hard earned

486
00:30:55,597 --> 00:30:57,597
money that they're going to dilute it.

487
00:30:58,032 --> 00:31:00,992
the analogy is flawed because we
would feel better the day after.

488
00:31:06,447 --> 00:31:08,997
But with money, you don't
feel better the day after.

489
00:31:09,152 --> 00:31:09,782
No, no, it's

490
00:31:09,837 --> 00:31:11,247
don't even know you're getting robbed.

491
00:31:11,267 --> 00:31:12,067
That's the problem.

492
00:31:12,237 --> 00:31:16,246
So, I look at this and think, if it was
a, like, if it was a broadly understood

493
00:31:16,246 --> 00:31:20,726
problem, then Bitcoin would, it wouldn't
be at the levels that it is now.

494
00:31:20,776 --> 00:31:23,406
We would be, you know,
fighting for a Satoshi.

495
00:31:24,091 --> 00:31:27,521
That's the kind of level that
Bitcoin would go to and I look at

496
00:31:27,641 --> 00:31:32,141
all of the functions of store of
value at the moment are, you know,

497
00:31:32,181 --> 00:31:34,391
properties, shares, the rest of it.

498
00:31:35,004 --> 00:31:39,284
There's no ability to save money anymore
because there's a negative real return.

499
00:31:39,996 --> 00:31:45,336
We go into this in the book, like, uh,
the basic, the, the, the, what Bitcoiners

500
00:31:45,356 --> 00:31:49,666
understand, I think is that, you know,
gold was good at storing value and

501
00:31:49,796 --> 00:31:52,286
fiat is good as a medium of exchange.

502
00:31:52,811 --> 00:31:56,811
But Bitcoin does both better, but I
think it's, it goes even deeper than

503
00:31:56,811 --> 00:32:00,911
that because I think the very term
store of value is very misguided.

504
00:32:00,931 --> 00:32:05,411
And if I, so I, in research, doing
research for the book, I looked up

505
00:32:05,411 --> 00:32:08,921
the Misesian definition of money
and it's just the most common

506
00:32:08,921 --> 00:32:11,531
medium of exchange in society.

507
00:32:11,531 --> 00:32:16,621
And he pushes the medium of exchange
narrative sort of, uh, it's sort

508
00:32:16,621 --> 00:32:20,681
of implied that it needs to store
value, but it still sees money.

509
00:32:20,956 --> 00:32:21,996
As a medium of exchange.

510
00:32:22,016 --> 00:32:25,066
So I was thinking about that
and I realized that the term

511
00:32:25,076 --> 00:32:26,786
medium of exchange is enough.

512
00:32:26,826 --> 00:32:31,426
It's just medium of exchange over
time and medium of exchange over, over

513
00:32:31,426 --> 00:32:35,346
space because it's not really a store
of values and values subjective, but

514
00:32:35,346 --> 00:32:37,456
it is a medium of exchange over time.

515
00:32:37,846 --> 00:32:41,415
What you're doing when you're saving is
that you're trading with your future self.

516
00:32:42,406 --> 00:32:49,316
So you're just, you're just using money,
uh, and you are making a, an exchange

517
00:32:49,326 --> 00:32:53,866
even, like a trade, because that money,
that money in keeping it, if it's proper

518
00:32:53,866 --> 00:32:58,476
money that, that holds its value, then
it does provide you with some financial

519
00:32:58,486 --> 00:33:00,306
security during that time period.

520
00:33:00,626 --> 00:33:04,761
So it does, it's never idle,
it always, Serves a function to

521
00:33:04,761 --> 00:33:06,881
you, the holder of the money.

522
00:33:07,241 --> 00:33:11,531
But I think this is, this, this also
ties into this whole, you know, that

523
00:33:11,531 --> 00:33:17,291
tweet we talked about just, uh, just five
minutes ago with, uh, how to, you should

524
00:33:17,881 --> 00:33:20,031
stay humble and stack sats is wrong.

525
00:33:20,121 --> 00:33:21,371
Well, it's not because.

526
00:33:21,781 --> 00:33:23,451
It's all a medium of exchange.

527
00:33:23,481 --> 00:33:27,571
It's just that you have to account for
all four dimensions and you can't have

528
00:33:27,571 --> 00:33:31,481
the spatial dimensions without having
the temporal dimension sorted first.

529
00:33:31,911 --> 00:33:32,961
So that's the way I see that.

530
00:33:32,961 --> 00:33:36,491
I would like to talk to your brother
about this too, because like the words

531
00:33:36,531 --> 00:33:39,331
temporal and spatial would make his, uh,

532
00:33:40,421 --> 00:33:41,361
he would love it.

533
00:33:41,471 --> 00:33:45,660
You're speaking to the wrong Dudworth.

534
00:33:45,841 --> 00:33:51,471
On that, it's funny, this, the money
with the sort of the three functions

535
00:33:51,471 --> 00:33:55,861
of money, and this is where I think
there is a distortion to that.

536
00:33:56,151 --> 00:34:01,916
The three functions kind of does distort
what this is, and the study that I've

537
00:34:01,916 --> 00:34:08,718
looked at and done on this, I look
at, and maybe this is a, um, quite

538
00:34:08,768 --> 00:34:10,718
a conservative way to look at this.

539
00:34:11,638 --> 00:34:18,238
I think Bitcoin as a store of value and
a unit of account, excluding the medium

540
00:34:18,238 --> 00:34:22,048
exchange, is, to me, the killer use case.

541
00:34:22,308 --> 00:34:26,668
And if I break it down from a
market cap perspective, and total

542
00:34:26,668 --> 00:34:30,668
market share of store of value
medium exchange unit of account.

543
00:34:31,498 --> 00:34:35,718
And when it comes to functions
of money, the store of value

544
00:34:35,728 --> 00:34:40,888
has maybe a, maybe a 15 trillion
market cap with gold, give or take.

545
00:34:41,278 --> 00:34:44,458
Now, the definition I'm using
for store of value is gold.

546
00:34:45,168 --> 00:34:47,488
Medium exchange might be
a 100 trillion market.

547
00:34:49,168 --> 00:34:52,648
And unit of account, to me, um,
some people will say it's, you

548
00:34:52,648 --> 00:34:56,378
know, 800 trillion, but I think
it's more like 2, 000 trillion.

549
00:34:57,548 --> 00:35:01,958
And I look at this and I think, if
you capture the store of value and

550
00:35:01,958 --> 00:35:05,788
the unit of account markets, then by
default you get the mean of exchange.

551
00:35:05,788 --> 00:35:09,018
And this is where you come in and
talk about spatial and temporal.

552
00:35:09,913 --> 00:35:14,593
If you capture over time, store
a value and unit of account, by

553
00:35:14,593 --> 00:35:18,603
definition, everyone will end up
using Bitcoin as the medium exchange.

554
00:35:18,863 --> 00:35:23,123
So it's a, it's a fait accompli
that we will get medium exchange

555
00:35:23,463 --> 00:35:25,713
if you have those two corner posts.

556
00:35:26,453 --> 00:35:29,503
And from an immediate perspective,
and this bringing it down to the

557
00:35:29,503 --> 00:35:33,363
personal level, because I think all
decisions resonate from the personal

558
00:35:33,403 --> 00:35:35,603
up, not from a top down decision.

559
00:35:36,893 --> 00:35:39,793
If that's the case, then, if you.

560
00:35:40,408 --> 00:35:43,178
Capture the store value market
and the unit of account market.

561
00:35:43,478 --> 00:35:47,438
You've effectively captured 95
percent of the value accretion

562
00:35:48,078 --> 00:35:50,278
in the marketplace for money.

563
00:35:51,018 --> 00:35:55,208
And then that little bit in the middle,
100 trillion dollars, the 5 percent that's

564
00:35:55,208 --> 00:35:57,598
remaining is your medium of exchange.

565
00:35:57,928 --> 00:36:01,728
But this is where it gets completely,
well, very complicated when you

566
00:36:01,728 --> 00:36:04,988
look at the temporal and spatial
effects on that interaction.

567
00:36:05,993 --> 00:36:08,303
How is unit of account a market though?

568
00:36:08,433 --> 00:36:11,443
How can it be like, because
you're measuring from.

569
00:36:11,963 --> 00:36:14,293
The very thing you're trying
to measure the value of,

570
00:36:15,036 --> 00:36:18,126
A circumstantial, like
it's a referential loop.

571
00:36:19,001 --> 00:36:21,981
okay, so, so, so what do you mean by that?

572
00:36:21,991 --> 00:36:25,921
Is that the market for the US
dollar or because that's the

573
00:36:25,921 --> 00:36:27,611
most common unit of account?

574
00:36:28,147 --> 00:36:29,827
Well, yes, but I think it's everything.

575
00:36:30,217 --> 00:36:33,807
I think it's every, all value that needs
to be captured, and I look at this on,

576
00:36:33,807 --> 00:36:38,367
say, a personal level, how I think about
it, and this is a conversation that we had

577
00:36:38,367 --> 00:36:44,797
last time, was, we play the simplest game
on earth, stack sats, all we have to do is

578
00:36:45,747 --> 00:36:47,537
is have one more sat than this time last

579
00:36:47,657 --> 00:36:48,117
Yeah, yeah.

580
00:36:48,117 --> 00:36:49,007
And I love that.

581
00:36:49,047 --> 00:36:49,677
I love that.

582
00:36:50,617 --> 00:36:53,727
And I, let me guess how you think
about this and the, the, the market

583
00:36:53,767 --> 00:36:57,617
for unit of account, everything
divided by, by something, right?

584
00:36:57,867 --> 00:37:01,867
Ah, let me think, ah, ha
ha ha ha, yeah, exactly.

585
00:37:02,017 --> 00:37:03,207
That's exactly what it is.

586
00:37:04,097 --> 00:37:09,762
so, this is where, to me, things
get really interesting, because that

587
00:37:09,772 --> 00:37:12,882
everything divided by 21 million,
people think, if say there's, let's

588
00:37:12,882 --> 00:37:15,452
just agree that there's a thousand
trillion dollars of value in the

589
00:37:15,452 --> 00:37:16,972
world that needs to be accounted for.

590
00:37:17,712 --> 00:37:20,327
We divide it by 21 million
and we get, Get that.

591
00:37:20,917 --> 00:37:24,897
But what I think a lot of people
miss in valuing Bitcoin, I personally

592
00:37:24,897 --> 00:37:28,947
think that it can be a lot more than
a trillion dollars divided by 21

593
00:37:28,947 --> 00:37:34,077
million because you need to value
the future value of that Bitcoin.

594
00:37:34,967 --> 00:37:38,317
And this is where your point is
outstanding in that it's not just

595
00:37:38,347 --> 00:37:42,297
everything now, it's everything
in the future that will be.

596
00:37:42,877 --> 00:37:46,297
And if you look at that, there's
a time preference and a monetary

597
00:37:46,307 --> 00:37:48,207
premium given to that future value.

598
00:37:49,052 --> 00:37:54,212
Now, when you have all of your base layers
on that Maslow's Needs Hierarchy covered,

599
00:37:55,352 --> 00:37:57,092
you can think further into the future.

600
00:37:57,902 --> 00:38:03,762
It allows you to have a lot less and spend
a lot less of your proportionate stack.

601
00:38:04,262 --> 00:38:07,702
And this is where that escalator,
I think, is such a novel term

602
00:38:07,702 --> 00:38:13,972
in that Bitcoin can account for
hundreds of quadrillions of dollars.

603
00:38:14,262 --> 00:38:18,142
Because we all have our monetary
premium baked into our future

604
00:38:18,142 --> 00:38:19,752
value and what that means to us.

605
00:38:20,306 --> 00:38:24,796
the problem there is like, like now we're
into scaling territory, but I have my,

606
00:38:25,036 --> 00:38:29,546
my own, like, like my most misinterpreted
article ever was one about the scaling

607
00:38:29,626 --> 00:38:35,920
and how the real scaling solution is just
that we will use money less and, uh, I

608
00:38:35,920 --> 00:38:40,430
don't, I think most people misinterpreted
that and saying that like, it was a

609
00:38:40,430 --> 00:38:45,800
bit too much on the Kumbaya side of
things, maybe, but, but I think like

610
00:38:45,800 --> 00:38:51,234
the, the, like, that's, that's why we
don't see retail adoption and stuff, uh,

611
00:38:51,674 --> 00:38:58,269
galore everywhere because most people
Don't want to spend their Bitcoin.

612
00:38:58,299 --> 00:39:03,239
And like most people want to do the stay
humble stack sets and then maybe spend

613
00:39:03,309 --> 00:39:05,629
a little on top 10 years down the line.

614
00:39:06,247 --> 00:39:11,647
but there is a problem there because
like, uh, transaction fees will inevitably

615
00:39:11,647 --> 00:39:16,987
go up and it will highly, it's highly
unlikely that it will ever be worth the

616
00:39:16,997 --> 00:39:21,767
time or the effort or the money to, to
buy a cup of coffee on chain anymore.

617
00:39:22,657 --> 00:39:23,097
Ever.

618
00:39:23,607 --> 00:39:28,467
Uh, so, so there is something to the
scaling thing, but, but, but my thesis

619
00:39:29,357 --> 00:39:33,267
from, from that article was that like,
yeah, so when you have that, like

620
00:39:33,277 --> 00:39:37,427
everything else becomes money first,
you have some sort of Gresham's law

621
00:39:37,457 --> 00:39:41,657
thing, uh, thing going on, including
your reputational capital, and then

622
00:39:41,657 --> 00:39:47,207
that becomes like, uh, um, because
if you have, if you have 10 wealthy

623
00:39:47,207 --> 00:39:52,402
people, that go and eat together
every night, then there's probably 10

624
00:39:52,412 --> 00:39:56,652
transactions being made because someone
picks up the bill every night, right?

625
00:39:56,942 --> 00:39:58,242
So there's 10 transactions.

626
00:39:58,722 --> 00:40:03,742
If you have 10 very poor people eating
every night, then they probably sit

627
00:40:03,742 --> 00:40:05,422
at home and buy their own noodles.

628
00:40:05,432 --> 00:40:09,612
So there's a hundred transactions
going on, like over 10 days.

629
00:40:10,402 --> 00:40:14,572
So there's, for the poor, there's
probably, there's probably a

630
00:40:14,572 --> 00:40:18,302
need for more transactions with
functioning money, because right now.

631
00:40:18,732 --> 00:40:24,512
in the incentivized to use
their money all the time.

632
00:40:24,512 --> 00:40:31,612
That's, that's what the, uh, MMT people,
uh, view as a successful economy when

633
00:40:31,612 --> 00:40:33,392
people spend, spend, spend, spend, spend.

634
00:40:34,022 --> 00:40:38,991
But I think that this, perfectly sound
money and this absolutely finite supply

635
00:40:39,501 --> 00:40:44,761
makes it so that You will be really,
really careful with what you use that for.

636
00:40:44,941 --> 00:40:49,771
And you will use it a few times
and those times will be far apart.

637
00:40:50,031 --> 00:40:54,387
And that's a feature, not a bug, like,
for instance, I view this as a trade

638
00:40:54,397 --> 00:40:58,097
we're in, we're in a trade right now,
um, we're trading information with one

639
00:40:58,107 --> 00:41:03,687
another, and if you come over to Europe
or if I come to Australia, then we'll

640
00:41:03,687 --> 00:41:11,497
probably buy each other dinners and stuff,
you know, and that is, Because we know

641
00:41:11,557 --> 00:41:15,377
deep inside this, this, this thing about
Bitcoin is being incentivized to help one

642
00:41:15,387 --> 00:41:22,763
another that there's no real need for need
for greed or needs to, spend anything,

643
00:41:22,843 --> 00:41:28,093
uh, spend your stack when you can just
spend your reputation or like, and get

644
00:41:28,093 --> 00:41:32,613
a reputational gain gain by spending
something else like your fiat or whatever.

645
00:41:33,013 --> 00:41:36,543
So there is a scenario where
barter and stuff like this

646
00:41:36,583 --> 00:41:38,823
becomes More common, I think.

647
00:41:38,833 --> 00:41:43,843
It's kind of hard to articulate this
thought, but I see the need for trans,

648
00:41:44,103 --> 00:41:49,523
the need for many transactions going
down on a Bitcoin standard and not up.

649
00:41:50,145 --> 00:41:50,865
I agree with you.

650
00:41:50,915 --> 00:41:55,405
And this is where, um, I've had a
conversation with my brother on this.

651
00:41:55,645 --> 00:41:58,785
And you know how he time locked
the Bitcoin into the future?

652
00:41:59,182 --> 00:41:59,602
Yeah.

653
00:42:00,052 --> 00:42:00,492
Based.

654
00:42:00,862 --> 00:42:04,332
I, yeah, I think that's a, like,
that is such a wild idea and

655
00:42:04,462 --> 00:42:07,012
I'll, I'll talk more about that
because it's sort of resurfacing

656
00:42:07,112 --> 00:42:09,492
on a, on a geopolitical level too.

657
00:42:10,505 --> 00:42:14,335
He talks about the fact that because he's
given a contribution to humanity into the

658
00:42:14,335 --> 00:42:18,896
future, and that, I think, will be worth
an absolute, unseemly amount of money.

659
00:42:20,286 --> 00:42:24,466
He talks about the reputational
capital that goes with having made

660
00:42:24,466 --> 00:42:25,806
that contribution into the future.

661
00:42:25,806 --> 00:42:29,211
It's like, oh my goodness, there's
Michael Dunworth, who You know, basically

662
00:42:29,211 --> 00:42:32,161
put a whole bitcoin into the future
to solve a mining problem or whatever

663
00:42:32,161 --> 00:42:35,451
he perceived to be a problem, but he
made a contribution to the network.

664
00:42:35,911 --> 00:42:40,946
We should either elevate his opinion
or be grateful that he's contributed

665
00:42:40,976 --> 00:42:42,876
to humanity on some way, shape or form.

666
00:42:43,156 --> 00:42:45,656
And bitcoin's the most
objective way to do that.

667
00:42:46,151 --> 00:42:51,141
And this is where, what's interesting
with the, that whole time locking concept,

668
00:42:51,641 --> 00:42:56,063
it's starting to get a second run with,
Trump talking about having a Bitcoin

669
00:42:56,073 --> 00:42:58,523
strategic reserve asset for, for the U.

670
00:42:58,523 --> 00:42:58,903
S.

671
00:42:59,013 --> 00:43:04,953
And I think, um, someone's floated the
notion that they should have, um, they

672
00:43:04,953 --> 00:43:08,053
should buy a trillion dollars worth of
Bitcoin, time lock it into the future,

673
00:43:08,613 --> 00:43:10,643
and that is a way of solving the U.

674
00:43:10,643 --> 00:43:10,803
S.

675
00:43:10,803 --> 00:43:11,723
national debt problem.

676
00:43:12,498 --> 00:43:16,704
And I look at this and think, well, that's
really interesting because that's one

677
00:43:16,704 --> 00:43:18,778
way to ensure that they can't spend it.

678
00:43:19,188 --> 00:43:24,088
So, it's time locked for 30 years and
who knows, maybe there's a chance that

679
00:43:24,088 --> 00:43:27,348
they can actually get out of the debt
problem that they've got by actually

680
00:43:27,368 --> 00:43:29,158
buying Bitcoin and time locking it.

681
00:43:29,538 --> 00:43:32,378
It also sends a really clear message to
the rest of the world that, hey, we're

682
00:43:32,378 --> 00:43:36,488
serious about Bitcoin and this is where,
to one of the points you raised earlier,

683
00:43:36,648 --> 00:43:41,458
I think, in thinking about Bitcoin as a
store of value unit of account and the

684
00:43:41,458 --> 00:43:47,478
rest of it, we, at this point in time,
globally, from a, From a macro level,

685
00:43:47,758 --> 00:43:50,968
we just don't have the ability to pay
off the debts that we've got right now.

686
00:43:51,808 --> 00:43:54,948
And the only way I see us being
able to get out of this hole,

687
00:43:55,468 --> 00:43:57,668
is to recapitalize the markets.

688
00:43:58,158 --> 00:44:00,208
And so how do you
recapitalize the markets?

689
00:44:01,508 --> 00:44:06,688
At this point in time, you either have to
pump money into different asset classes.

690
00:44:07,613 --> 00:44:11,223
If you pump money into commodities,
that's going to be highly inflationary

691
00:44:11,223 --> 00:44:15,693
for every other sector because it's
a base, base cost in the economy.

692
00:44:16,923 --> 00:44:20,673
If you pump money into the property
sector, firstly you've got to pump

693
00:44:20,673 --> 00:44:23,313
a lot of money into the property
sector and secondly it affects

694
00:44:24,263 --> 00:44:25,723
cost of housing, cost of living.

695
00:44:26,073 --> 00:44:28,783
So that's another area that you
don't really want to pump money into.

696
00:44:29,283 --> 00:44:32,953
Then you've got the speculative degen
stock market, which ironically is moving

697
00:44:32,953 --> 00:44:34,903
closer and closer to meme coin slash.

698
00:44:35,358 --> 00:44:40,068
DGN trading than it is to a, you know,
a responsible profession of investing.

699
00:44:40,528 --> 00:44:44,278
And if you pump money into the stock
market, then you're going to incentivize

700
00:44:44,278 --> 00:44:46,058
all these DGNs to trade harder.

701
00:44:46,588 --> 00:44:53,118
I look at this across the board and think
the only realistic outcome of pumping

702
00:44:53,118 --> 00:44:56,938
money into to recapitalize the market
You So the idea is to pump money into

703
00:44:56,938 --> 00:45:03,478
Bitcoin and have Bitcoin recapitalize
the entire sector, because putting 1

704
00:45:03,518 --> 00:45:08,198
into the Bitcoin market will give you a
10 or a 50 or a 100x return on that by

705
00:45:08,198 --> 00:45:12,328
way of market cap, whereas if you put
1 into the property market it might go

706
00:45:12,328 --> 00:45:14,718
up by Half a half, a half a percent.

707
00:45:15,228 --> 00:45:19,408
It's not a big return, but you get a
hundred thousand or you get a 10000%

708
00:45:19,408 --> 00:45:23,968
return by putting a dollar into
Bitcoin, you get maybe a 50% return by

709
00:45:23,968 --> 00:45:25,468
putting a dollar into the stock market.

710
00:45:25,678 --> 00:45:29,248
And I look at this and think a lot
of people looking at this problem and

711
00:45:29,248 --> 00:45:30,748
thinking that we've got a debt problem.

712
00:45:30,748 --> 00:45:33,718
And yes, we do have a debt problem,
but the other side of the coin

713
00:45:33,718 --> 00:45:36,118
of a debt problem is that we,
we've got a collateral problem.

714
00:45:36,653 --> 00:45:37,763
So how do you solve that?

715
00:45:37,853 --> 00:45:39,433
You either fix one of the two things.

716
00:45:39,473 --> 00:45:41,563
You either fix the debt
or you fix the collateral.

717
00:45:42,113 --> 00:45:45,303
And it's far easier to fix the
collateral side of things with

718
00:45:45,303 --> 00:45:50,203
a globally ubiquitous asset in
Bitcoin than it is to fix the debt.

719
00:45:51,323 --> 00:45:55,223
So I look at this as a way of sort
of leveling, you know, getting

720
00:45:55,243 --> 00:45:59,173
balance back into the broader
economics of what we're dealing with.

721
00:45:59,764 --> 00:46:00,204
Yeah.

722
00:46:00,444 --> 00:46:05,427
And it's so fascinating because all
money, not only Bitcoin, The reason

723
00:46:05,427 --> 00:46:10,037
we value it, I mean, we still, we
still vote for the value of fiat

724
00:46:10,077 --> 00:46:15,287
currencies by choosing to buy or not
buy different sorts of stuff, right?

725
00:46:15,347 --> 00:46:17,167
That, that, that, and goods and services.

726
00:46:17,577 --> 00:46:24,457
So, so it's all just, uh, In the back
of our heads, like it's all in our

727
00:46:24,457 --> 00:46:28,827
heads, all of it, all the trillions of
dollars in debt that the world is in.

728
00:46:29,367 --> 00:46:32,907
At the end of the day, it's just
like some sort of intersubjective

729
00:46:32,907 --> 00:46:37,457
valuation mechanism going on.

730
00:46:37,477 --> 00:46:43,587
And the fiat isn't working because
it's the rules are broken, but Bitcoin

731
00:46:43,587 --> 00:46:45,777
is just rules that are working.

732
00:46:45,777 --> 00:46:54,267
And we're just facing out of this
old Uh, flawed mental state into a, a

733
00:46:54,297 --> 00:46:59,657
mental state that actually works and
that it's all happening in our heads.

734
00:46:59,997 --> 00:47:01,667
That's the most mind blowing part.

735
00:47:03,147 --> 00:47:09,187
I mean, yeah, I know, I know how
money is not a collective illusion and

736
00:47:09,187 --> 00:47:14,927
there's a Harari narrative and that's,
it has to be attached to something,

737
00:47:15,107 --> 00:47:17,637
but, but all Bitcoin is, I know, but.

738
00:47:17,917 --> 00:47:24,407
It's, it's all in our heads and like,
this is the old, um, like my, what I

739
00:47:24,407 --> 00:47:29,967
push all the time in terms of narratives
is that, uh, the, uh, the Bitcoin is

740
00:47:29,967 --> 00:47:34,727
you, like there's no difference and
the, the minor, the, the ASIC is just

741
00:47:34,727 --> 00:47:39,227
a fancy abacus to help us calculate,
uh, to, to verify what's going on.

742
00:47:39,497 --> 00:47:43,477
So, so the energy expenditure is
just like a side effect, but it's

743
00:47:43,477 --> 00:47:45,097
a side effect that makes this.

744
00:47:45,812 --> 00:47:50,182
A competition of minds possible, but
still at the end of the day, all of the

745
00:47:50,182 --> 00:47:54,092
information, all of the information,
it's information, it's in our head.

746
00:47:54,192 --> 00:47:58,592
Like, there's, uh, we,
you can't get around that.

747
00:47:58,612 --> 00:48:01,022
And that's, that's what I
find so insanely mind blowing.

748
00:48:02,122 --> 00:48:05,002
I think it's a paradigm shift because
for the first time in history we've

749
00:48:05,002 --> 00:48:07,672
got, we're not playing a zero sum game.

750
00:48:08,382 --> 00:48:12,572
And this is back to that incentives
conversation earlier, because it's the

751
00:48:12,572 --> 00:48:15,302
first thing that is not a zero sum game.

752
00:48:16,112 --> 00:48:20,092
This is the first game we can play
where we have a collective benefit.

753
00:48:20,675 --> 00:48:22,045
That's a tweet.

754
00:48:22,425 --> 00:48:26,135
Bitcoin is an everything
divided by 21 million some game.

755
00:48:29,595 --> 00:48:30,615
I gotta tweet that right now.

756
00:48:31,315 --> 00:48:34,685
It's true though, like, it's the first
time that, you know, we can all benefit.

757
00:48:34,785 --> 00:48:38,685
And this is where, you know, finance
up until this point in time has been,

758
00:48:39,345 --> 00:48:40,705
you know, you either win or you lose.

759
00:48:41,285 --> 00:48:44,215
Someone's either winning or losing and
you're on the wrong side of it and for

760
00:48:44,215 --> 00:48:49,075
the first time maybe this comes back to
that incentives that we talked about at

761
00:48:49,085 --> 00:48:54,675
the start that to me the fact that we're
not playing a zero sum game is How we

762
00:48:54,675 --> 00:48:57,105
can all align and get behind this thing.

763
00:48:59,000 --> 00:49:01,620
Of course, Knut is
actually tweeting during a

764
00:49:01,625 --> 00:49:02,215
Yeah, nice.

765
00:49:02,995 --> 00:49:03,325
Nice.

766
00:49:03,470 --> 00:49:06,733
Yes, save me here, Luke, I'm tweeting.

767
00:49:08,330 --> 00:49:09,720
We've all agreed to that.

768
00:49:10,530 --> 00:49:12,310
Uh, this is awesome.

769
00:49:12,310 --> 00:49:14,805
I mean, um, Yeah.

770
00:49:14,865 --> 00:49:18,345
Uh, I, I love the optimism whenever
we, whenever we talk to you or

771
00:49:18,345 --> 00:49:21,315
whenever, whenever you go on other
pods, it's always like, you're,

772
00:49:21,315 --> 00:49:25,805
you are in competition for the most
bullish person in the entire space.

773
00:49:25,865 --> 00:49:29,615
Basically, you, you and Luke
Broyles together is, is like,

774
00:49:29,645 --> 00:49:32,465
yeah, that's, it's like trying to
one up each other a little bit.

775
00:49:32,525 --> 00:49:33,995
Mch also does the same thing.

776
00:49:33,995 --> 00:49:35,345
There's something about, about the loop.

777
00:49:35,900 --> 00:49:36,580
Exactly.

778
00:49:36,580 --> 00:49:38,749
I've got you, Knut.

779
00:49:38,750 --> 00:49:40,590
You guys bat okay, too.

780
00:49:42,965 --> 00:49:46,475
Yeah, but I think we're a little more
understated than those other guys.

781
00:49:46,475 --> 00:49:49,855
But anyway, not in a, not in
a, not like that's a negative.

782
00:49:49,855 --> 00:49:54,065
It's just, uh, you know, uh, we're
the, we're the philosophizers.

783
00:49:54,085 --> 00:49:57,525
Those guys are the, are
the hype, uh, hype men.

784
00:49:57,745 --> 00:49:59,085
I think something like that.

785
00:49:59,605 --> 00:50:00,175
Um,

786
00:50:00,630 --> 00:50:02,310
1BTC equals 1BTC.

787
00:50:03,305 --> 00:50:04,035
exactly.

788
00:50:04,190 --> 00:50:04,750
So true.

789
00:50:05,405 --> 00:50:09,845
But, uh, yeah, Peter, I mean, uh,
what, what's your thinking on, on just

790
00:50:09,865 --> 00:50:15,295
the, the, the short term here, uh, be,
because, I mean, the having happened

791
00:50:15,295 --> 00:50:19,375
and, and everything, uh, kind of maybe
was a little disappointing from the

792
00:50:19,375 --> 00:50:22,595
perspective of anyone who wanted to
see everything go to the moon right

793
00:50:22,595 --> 00:50:27,075
away, uh, are you at all worried or
just waiting for the, for the rip?

794
00:50:27,085 --> 00:50:28,315
What's, uh, what's going on?

795
00:50:29,700 --> 00:50:33,570
I'll probably say something which is
probably not going to be so popular,

796
00:50:33,850 --> 00:50:38,520
but it's just where we're at at this
point in time, given current market

797
00:50:38,520 --> 00:50:43,270
dynamics, but it would not surprise
me to see this sideways action

798
00:50:43,270 --> 00:50:44,600
continue for the next three months.

799
00:50:45,240 --> 00:50:46,650
And I know that's not what people want.

800
00:50:46,660 --> 00:50:47,750
It's definitely not what I want.

801
00:50:47,890 --> 00:50:50,660
But I think about this, that a lot of.

802
00:50:51,225 --> 00:50:56,075
The previous cycles had, uh, sort
of three months after the halving

803
00:50:56,125 --> 00:50:58,475
was the bottom in, in past cycles.

804
00:50:58,585 --> 00:51:02,785
And that was typically caused because
there was a lot of minor cell pressure,

805
00:51:02,825 --> 00:51:05,935
maybe people got overexcited, got,
you know, ahead of themselves.

806
00:51:05,935 --> 00:51:09,165
And then there was that sort of
realization that, oh, there's a lot more

807
00:51:09,165 --> 00:51:12,125
heavy lifting that needs to be done in
order to get to where we need to go to.

808
00:51:12,675 --> 00:51:17,495
And if you buy into that minor
capitulation theory, we could be

809
00:51:17,495 --> 00:51:19,085
waiting a lot longer for that to happen.

810
00:51:19,350 --> 00:51:22,600
And that's a lot more than what we've
seen in the past, because if you remember

811
00:51:22,610 --> 00:51:27,340
back in February, basically since the
beginning of the year, we had huge fees.

812
00:51:27,460 --> 00:51:28,750
March was a bumper month.

813
00:51:28,940 --> 00:51:31,380
You couldn't get a transaction
on there because we had, you

814
00:51:31,380 --> 00:51:34,820
know, the network was just out of
control from a fee perspective.

815
00:51:35,390 --> 00:51:37,860
And then it died down a little
bit, then came into the halving,

816
00:51:37,890 --> 00:51:42,570
and then first, call it week
after the halving, fees went down.

817
00:51:42,875 --> 00:51:44,185
Absolutely mental.

818
00:51:44,205 --> 00:51:48,245
Like, that first block mine,
block 840, 000, I think, was

819
00:51:48,255 --> 00:51:49,525
the first block in the epoch.

820
00:51:50,055 --> 00:51:53,555
Like, there was 39 million in
fees in that one single block,

821
00:51:53,735 --> 00:51:55,445
which was just outrageous.

822
00:51:55,875 --> 00:51:59,835
And I think about this, and I think
the other thing that adds to this

823
00:51:59,835 --> 00:52:03,265
is that All of these miners have
benefited from these additional fees

824
00:52:03,275 --> 00:52:08,195
prior to the halving, and we've also
got all time highs before the halving.

825
00:52:08,245 --> 00:52:09,845
That never happened before as well.

826
00:52:10,045 --> 00:52:13,215
So these businesses are very well
capitalized, and so they haven't had

827
00:52:13,215 --> 00:52:14,725
to puke up all their Bitcoin yet.

828
00:52:15,135 --> 00:52:18,855
So I look at this and think, oh, we
could be extended here for another three

829
00:52:18,855 --> 00:52:20,155
months, and it wouldn't surprise me.

830
00:52:20,595 --> 00:52:24,225
Um, Having said that, I'd love Trump to
come out and just say, yeah, we're buying

831
00:52:24,225 --> 00:52:28,305
a trillion dollars of Bitcoin and we just
send it to a million dollars overnight

832
00:52:28,305 --> 00:52:30,155
would be, you know, my preferred outcome.

833
00:52:30,185 --> 00:52:32,385
But do I think that happens?

834
00:52:33,095 --> 00:52:33,415
No.

835
00:52:34,305 --> 00:52:37,645
You know, I'd prefer to prepare for
the worst, hope for the best and

836
00:52:38,065 --> 00:52:39,615
be pleasantly surprised in between.

837
00:53:45,464 --> 00:53:47,044
Here's something I struggle with.

838
00:53:47,114 --> 00:53:49,704
What would you prefer?

839
00:53:50,084 --> 00:53:53,814
A pro Bitcoin president or
an anti Bitcoin president?

840
00:53:54,149 --> 00:53:55,429
Oh, great question.

841
00:53:57,269 --> 00:54:02,329
Because it's not a, it's not an easy
one, you know, uh, because you want

842
00:54:02,389 --> 00:54:07,029
people to be proper Bitcoiners, run their
nodes and, and, uh, not because they

843
00:54:07,029 --> 00:54:11,389
have permission to do so, like the, you,
you, it needs, this is the funny thing,

844
00:54:11,469 --> 00:54:15,869
because it needs to be black market
money, because that's what permissionless

845
00:54:15,929 --> 00:54:20,939
means, like, it needs to be uncensorable,
it needs to be all of these things,

846
00:54:20,939 --> 00:54:23,129
otherwise the value proposition is gone.

847
00:54:23,564 --> 00:54:28,826
Like, it needs to be non
controlled, not controlled by

848
00:54:28,826 --> 00:54:31,356
humans in any way, shape, or form.

849
00:54:31,386 --> 00:54:34,586
So this is, yeah, I struggle with this.

850
00:54:34,986 --> 00:54:38,386
It is game theory playing out, and
Trump is starting to talk about it.

851
00:54:38,416 --> 00:54:42,106
It's exciting, of course,
it means something,

852
00:54:42,787 --> 00:54:45,937
I, um, here's a, here's a
question to you on that note.

853
00:54:46,577 --> 00:54:48,507
What would you think of Xi adopting it?

854
00:54:49,183 --> 00:54:49,713
of who?

855
00:54:50,373 --> 00:54:51,863
President Xi from China.

856
00:54:52,313 --> 00:54:53,963
Ah, GEOP, yeah.

857
00:54:54,123 --> 00:54:55,723
about Trump adopting it.

858
00:54:55,833 --> 00:54:59,273
Okay, great for the US to adopt it,
but like, think about, you know,

859
00:54:59,393 --> 00:55:00,813
our enemy's money or whatever.

860
00:55:00,833 --> 00:55:03,723
Like, or Putin comes out tomorrow
and says, hey, I'm doing Bitcoin.

861
00:55:04,323 --> 00:55:11,183
Well I, I think the, uh, the chaos theory,
uh, we discussed before still plays

862
00:55:11,203 --> 00:55:16,083
out the, these people are going to fuck
this up so bad and it's going to end up

863
00:55:16,083 --> 00:55:27,273
with some guy and I root for some guy,
you know, but the thing is, it doesn't

864
00:55:27,273 --> 00:55:30,853
matter because like once they have the
Bitcoin and once they have Bitcoin on

865
00:55:30,853 --> 00:55:36,203
the balance sheet or whatever you may
call it, then, um, Then the only way

866
00:55:36,203 --> 00:55:42,253
for them to leverage that in any way,
shape, or form is to spend the Bitcoin.

867
00:55:42,263 --> 00:55:45,063
You can't, you can't do
anything else with it.

868
00:55:46,143 --> 00:55:47,983
And that's, that's the beautiful part.

869
00:55:48,263 --> 00:55:53,553
So, so in the end, it benefits
individuals and that's great.

870
00:55:54,033 --> 00:55:55,753
And even if they hoard.

871
00:55:56,533 --> 00:56:02,943
There's plenty enough for us other,
uh, uh, us other cunts out there to,

872
00:56:02,973 --> 00:56:09,453
to, to, all that happens if they hoard
it and keep, uh, and you know, put it

873
00:56:09,453 --> 00:56:14,383
away in a vault somewhere, however you
may do that, uh, is, is number go up.

874
00:56:14,453 --> 00:56:16,033
That's the, that's the outcome of that.

875
00:56:16,393 --> 00:56:20,600
So, no, I, I, I don't have
a problem with, you know, g,

876
00:56:20,600 --> 00:56:22,828
yelp, yelping, buying Bitcoin.

877
00:56:24,508 --> 00:56:25,048
Not at all.

878
00:56:25,643 --> 00:56:27,323
I don't have a problem with it either.

879
00:56:27,323 --> 00:56:32,943
And in a twisted way, I think it would
incentivize that other nations adopt

880
00:56:32,943 --> 00:56:36,603
it quicker, just in case it was the
thing that was going to catch on.

881
00:56:36,983 --> 00:56:42,253
But to another point on that is, I think
Bitcoin requires a learning process

882
00:56:42,253 --> 00:56:43,703
for every Bitcoiner to go through.

883
00:56:44,543 --> 00:56:48,343
And so, uh, back to what we
discussed earlier, it's, it's

884
00:56:48,343 --> 00:56:51,193
almost like a hero's journey that
every Bitcoiner has to go through.

885
00:56:51,733 --> 00:56:54,643
So everyone will go through
their own learning, and to me,

886
00:56:55,683 --> 00:56:58,613
if it's someone I like, someone
I don't like, hey, who cares?

887
00:56:58,943 --> 00:57:01,403
Everyone's going to have to go
through this at some point in time,

888
00:57:01,403 --> 00:57:05,103
so if you know it's an inevitability,
and this is probably one thing that

889
00:57:05,513 --> 00:57:09,063
gets overlooked, I think, Bitcoin,
I think, is an inevitability.

890
00:57:09,413 --> 00:57:12,433
But if you know it's an inevitability,
then you should probably get on

891
00:57:12,433 --> 00:57:13,873
the train sooner rather than later.

892
00:57:14,712 --> 00:57:15,582
Yeah, absolutely.

893
00:57:16,257 --> 00:57:19,477
but at the end of the day, like if
you take, if you take the thought

894
00:57:19,507 --> 00:57:23,577
vector and you follow it to its
inevitable end, the whole notion

895
00:57:23,577 --> 00:57:25,017
of a nation state is sort of gone.

896
00:57:26,087 --> 00:57:32,767
You know, if, uh, take, all
aggression is gone in the, in the

897
00:57:32,767 --> 00:57:37,127
end, like, because I, a nation state
is basically just a monopoly of

898
00:57:37,137 --> 00:57:39,917
violence in, in a geographical area.

899
00:57:40,757 --> 00:57:44,197
Um, and you may think that's
a good or a bad thing.

900
00:57:44,207 --> 00:57:46,877
You may think that if there wasn't
a government, something worse

901
00:57:46,887 --> 00:57:50,837
would, but still, that's what it is.

902
00:57:50,867 --> 00:57:56,147
But if you can keep 99 percent of your
wealth in your head, then you cannot

903
00:57:56,247 --> 00:58:00,037
extract that wealth, if you're an
attacker, the best way to extract that

904
00:58:00,127 --> 00:58:05,147
wealth from someone else is to trade with
them and exchange something of value back

905
00:58:05,167 --> 00:58:07,667
to them and not to threaten to kill them.

906
00:58:08,282 --> 00:58:11,102
Because if you kill them,
the Bitcoin is gone.

907
00:58:11,162 --> 00:58:17,572
So, so like, this is the peaceful
revolution, uh, train of thought here.

908
00:58:17,752 --> 00:58:21,512
Um, but yeah, yeah, I don't see,
like, it's going to be fun to see

909
00:58:21,512 --> 00:58:23,632
the nation state thing playing out.

910
00:58:24,172 --> 00:58:26,862
But at the end of the day, Bitcoin
obsoletes the nation state.

911
00:58:26,972 --> 00:58:30,512
That's, it, it just does,
there's no way around that.

912
00:58:30,992 --> 00:58:32,972
So we turned into 8 billion nations.

913
00:58:34,322 --> 00:58:37,312
Self sovereign, the sovereign
individual, literally.

914
00:58:38,144 --> 00:58:42,874
Uh, I'm looking forward to it and I'm
looking forward to trading with other

915
00:58:42,874 --> 00:58:47,194
nations, you know, trading, uh, you
know, a couple of pints with another

916
00:58:47,414 --> 00:58:48,884
self sovereign nation next to me.

917
00:58:50,409 --> 00:58:51,889
I've got to say, I look
forward to that day.

918
00:58:51,899 --> 00:58:56,699
In light of everything that's gone
on here and what's, what's gone

919
00:58:56,699 --> 00:59:00,389
on throughout the world in the
last few years, that degradation

920
00:59:00,389 --> 00:59:02,869
of trust, um, has been enormous.

921
00:59:02,879 --> 00:59:07,829
And this is one of the fundamental
premises of why I'm so enamored with

922
00:59:07,829 --> 00:59:12,424
Bitcoin is that I think it has the ability
for us to, um, to build that trust back

923
00:59:12,444 --> 00:59:15,804
within society that has been utterly lost.

924
00:59:16,334 --> 00:59:20,414
And I look at, say, if I just confine
that lack of trust to the financial

925
00:59:20,414 --> 00:59:22,114
sphere where I spend most of my time.

926
00:59:22,574 --> 00:59:26,514
We've had the Central Bank,
the Federal Reserve, the most

927
00:59:26,514 --> 00:59:30,084
esteemed prestigious institution
on earth when it comes to finance.

928
00:59:30,514 --> 00:59:32,504
You've had insider trading allegations.

929
00:59:32,504 --> 00:59:37,524
You had the JPOW say that he didn't
think that inflation was, um,

930
00:59:37,864 --> 00:59:39,514
Here to stay, it was transitory.

931
00:59:39,894 --> 00:59:41,634
And then he said, oh hang
on, we've got a problem.

932
00:59:41,634 --> 00:59:43,934
And then he jacked rates
from 0 percent to 5%.

933
00:59:44,454 --> 00:59:48,104
These banks in the US that had treasuries
on their balance sheet, who just bought

934
00:59:48,134 --> 00:59:51,314
US treasuries, which are classified
by the accounting standards as risk

935
00:59:51,324 --> 00:59:53,434
free, ended up blowing up the banks.

936
00:59:53,864 --> 00:59:57,354
All of those Silicon Valley banks that
blew up last year were a direct result

937
00:59:57,384 --> 00:59:58,814
of holding the risk free treasuries.

938
01:00:01,069 --> 01:00:04,199
And then we're getting, you know,
gas lit into telling us that the

939
01:00:04,199 --> 01:00:06,209
economy is fantastic, GDP is good.

940
01:00:06,599 --> 01:00:10,689
They redefined the term recession
to say that, oh no, recession

941
01:00:10,689 --> 01:00:12,729
isn't two negative GDP quarters.

942
01:00:13,019 --> 01:00:17,379
It's actually two negative GDP
quarters and higher unemployment.

943
01:00:17,489 --> 01:00:21,899
And I'm like, in my nearly 50 years
on earth, it's never been defined

944
01:00:22,009 --> 01:00:23,429
with the unemployment vector to it.

945
01:00:23,459 --> 01:00:25,389
It's always been, you know, GDP.

946
01:00:25,794 --> 01:00:26,494
Is it up or down?

947
01:00:26,494 --> 01:00:27,544
It's down for two quarters.

948
01:00:27,554 --> 01:00:31,734
So I'm just like, and then the
revision of the unemployment numbers.

949
01:00:32,464 --> 01:00:35,204
Always after the fact, six months
after the fact, they tell us, oh

950
01:00:35,204 --> 01:00:36,874
yeah, they're a lot worse than
what they thought they were.

951
01:00:36,874 --> 01:00:39,534
I'm like, why is anyone
listening to these clowns?

952
01:00:39,534 --> 01:00:42,794
Like, it's just, they're telling
you a story and there's no

953
01:00:42,854 --> 01:00:45,954
objective way to tell, like, To
figure out what they're doing.

954
01:00:46,974 --> 01:00:51,959
And the word, the word unemployment
itself, let's start by GDP is a,

955
01:00:51,964 --> 01:00:55,274
a bullshit metric to begin with
because what does it measure?

956
01:00:55,274 --> 01:01:00,374
You include like, sales of medicine
to the population in, in GDP.

957
01:01:00,764 --> 01:01:01,484
Like what is that?

958
01:01:01,484 --> 01:01:03,734
That's not a sinus of sec of success.

959
01:01:05,884 --> 01:01:09,604
like, uh, so, so, and uh, and
the, the metrics are all wrong.

960
01:01:09,994 --> 01:01:13,114
Uh, but even the, the
notion of unemployment.

961
01:01:13,904 --> 01:01:18,874
It's fictitious, like the government
came up with the word unemployment

962
01:01:18,904 --> 01:01:23,304
because on a totally free market
without interventionism, there

963
01:01:23,304 --> 01:01:25,654
is no such thing as unemployment.

964
01:01:26,019 --> 01:01:29,439
It is not a condition, it's just
someone choosing not to work, and

965
01:01:29,439 --> 01:01:33,059
there will always be someone willing
to pay something for someone to work.

966
01:01:33,219 --> 01:01:37,129
It's just when you introduce these
social security schemes and stuff,

967
01:01:37,409 --> 01:01:39,109
that unemployment is a thing.

968
01:01:39,629 --> 01:01:41,929
Like, in a functioning
market, it can't be.

969
01:01:42,899 --> 01:01:45,209
So, it's all false.

970
01:01:46,424 --> 01:01:50,284
Well, they put those sort of false
dichotomies in place and, you know, they

971
01:01:50,284 --> 01:01:53,754
sort of try and underpin the value of
labor by putting in the minimum wages.

972
01:01:53,754 --> 01:01:56,684
And it's like, look, if
someone's not worth 15, you

973
01:01:56,684 --> 01:01:58,174
shouldn't have to pay them 15.

974
01:01:59,304 --> 01:02:01,574
They should be willing to work for
whatever you're prepared to pay

975
01:02:01,574 --> 01:02:05,614
them so that they can learn the
skill to get on the ladder of being

976
01:02:05,614 --> 01:02:07,724
employable and up to that 15 mark.

977
01:02:08,044 --> 01:02:11,054
And then when they get to 15,
move to 20, 30, 50, whatever.

978
01:02:12,049 --> 01:02:17,409
Yeah, and minimum wage is so easy
to debunk, and you can even, like, I

979
01:02:17,409 --> 01:02:22,299
hate using empiricism in economics,
but where the hell do you think the

980
01:02:22,679 --> 01:02:24,329
touchscreens at McDonald's come from?

981
01:02:24,729 --> 01:02:27,519
They come from minimum wage
laws, because they can't afford

982
01:02:27,529 --> 01:02:29,379
staff to do that stuff for you.

983
01:02:29,654 --> 01:02:34,434
Like it's the technological
innovation, you know, robot,

984
01:02:34,534 --> 01:02:38,604
uh, Gaston is a robot nowadays.

985
01:02:39,034 --> 01:02:42,664
And it's because of the minimum wage
law, not because the robot is so great.

986
01:02:42,684 --> 01:02:44,404
It's just that it's cheaper.

987
01:02:46,187 --> 01:02:49,537
So, I mean, these are all the challenges
that we face and I look at, you know,

988
01:02:49,547 --> 01:02:54,647
the one bright spot in the finance
world that I look at is Bitcoin, but

989
01:02:54,837 --> 01:02:59,007
it's completely misunderstood by the
broader, you know, broader community of

990
01:02:59,207 --> 01:03:04,297
finance acolytes and this is where the
opportunity for the pleb to stack sats

991
01:03:04,417 --> 01:03:09,437
comes in because while it's misunderstood
and we do our best to explain it,

992
01:03:09,897 --> 01:03:11,767
um, therein lies the opportunity.

993
01:03:12,622 --> 01:03:13,212
Exactly.

994
01:03:13,342 --> 01:03:16,412
And the whole inflation is transitory.

995
01:03:17,302 --> 01:03:20,672
It's absolutely 100 percent correct.

996
01:03:21,152 --> 01:03:24,862
They're just not aware of
what we're transitioning into.

997
01:03:28,132 --> 01:03:28,162
Touche.

998
01:03:28,272 --> 01:03:28,582
Yep.

999
01:03:29,172 --> 01:03:30,132
Yeah, so true.

1000
01:03:34,448 --> 01:03:35,138
point here.

1001
01:03:35,208 --> 01:03:35,558
Haha.

1002
01:03:36,113 --> 01:03:40,483
Anyway, so hey, it's been it's been
a while since we we last caught up.

1003
01:03:40,523 --> 01:03:44,943
It was actually a while since we caught
up generally, but but since we've had

1004
01:03:44,943 --> 01:03:48,943
you on the pod, and there's been a lot
going on, we've had a couple of other

1005
01:03:48,963 --> 01:03:50,583
people in the Bitcoin advisor sphere.

1006
01:03:50,583 --> 01:03:54,453
And as everyone knows, we are Bitcoin
advisors ourselves, even though we're

1007
01:03:54,453 --> 01:04:01,823
sort, it's not that we're not a If
someone wanted to, to be advised by,

1008
01:04:02,173 --> 01:04:06,463
as Bitcoin advisors by us, we would
absolutely do it, but we've, we've been,

1009
01:04:06,793 --> 01:04:11,203
you know, finishing our, our book and,
and everything, but, uh, you know, we're,

1010
01:04:11,213 --> 01:04:16,493
we're, we're ready and raring to go, so,
but, but from, from the horse's mouth

1011
01:04:16,493 --> 01:04:20,863
itself, uh, can we, can we get the TLDR
and everything you've been up to in the

1012
01:04:20,863 --> 01:04:25,003
last year and, uh, the Bitcoin advisor
and everything, because you can explain

1013
01:04:25,003 --> 01:04:26,343
it so much better than we can, I think.

1014
01:04:27,138 --> 01:04:29,288
You know what, it's
been an absolute blast.

1015
01:04:31,138 --> 01:04:35,728
Boy, what's happened in the last 12
years, or 12, feels like 12 12 months,

1016
01:04:35,788 --> 01:04:41,253
and I've got to say, I'm absolutely
delighted you two are on the team.

1017
01:04:41,463 --> 01:04:43,833
We literally have a team of rock stars.

1018
01:04:43,993 --> 01:04:46,613
Um, I think the best
Bitcoin team in the world.

1019
01:04:47,123 --> 01:04:50,403
And, you know, we've got a mission
to get every Bitcoin off exchange,

1020
01:04:50,403 --> 01:04:52,043
which I think is a very noble mission.

1021
01:04:52,643 --> 01:04:55,093
Um, the team's grown dramatically.

1022
01:04:55,173 --> 01:04:59,468
You know, we started off, Andy and
I, Circa 18 months ago and that's

1023
01:04:59,468 --> 01:05:04,148
now a team of 40 globally and we
basically get to help Bitcoiners all

1024
01:05:04,148 --> 01:05:08,838
over the globe get their Bitcoin off
exchange and I've got to say it is

1025
01:05:08,838 --> 01:05:11,728
such a fun feeling watching the coins.

1026
01:05:12,253 --> 01:05:14,633
Get ripped off the
exchange into self custody.

1027
01:05:14,703 --> 01:05:20,183
And for me, that I think is the highest
purpose I can serve the Bitcoin community.

1028
01:05:20,353 --> 01:05:24,893
And I'm thrilled that we've got, you
know, nearly 40 advisors now globally

1029
01:05:24,893 --> 01:05:28,753
who share that mission to help anyone
who wants help getting coins off

1030
01:05:28,753 --> 01:05:30,583
exchange where we're there to help.

1031
01:05:30,583 --> 01:05:33,273
And, you know, we provide
a stack of free resources.

1032
01:05:33,478 --> 01:05:38,438
There's a whole host of IP, we share
literally our entire IP catalogue, how

1033
01:05:38,438 --> 01:05:43,488
you want to do it, how we do it, um,
it's there for anyone to take and, you

1034
01:05:43,488 --> 01:05:48,158
know, one thing that I've got to say
I'm so happy to see is that there's a

1035
01:05:48,158 --> 01:05:52,153
whole host of other services popping
up that are So, You know, adjacent

1036
01:05:52,163 --> 01:05:56,733
to what we do or similar to what we
do, I think, um, the Bitcoin Way and

1037
01:05:56,733 --> 01:06:00,233
Tony and, you know, you've had him
on and what a fabulous story that is.

1038
01:06:00,683 --> 01:06:04,393
Um, great service, Bitcoin
Mentor with BTC Sessions.

1039
01:06:05,043 --> 01:06:09,338
These services are really invaluable
and I look at this and think, Some

1040
01:06:09,338 --> 01:06:13,978
people look at this as competition,
and I think, no, we're all on the same

1041
01:06:13,978 --> 01:06:17,428
team, we're all trying to achieve the
same outcome, it's just a different way

1042
01:06:17,428 --> 01:06:21,718
of doing it, so, for me, I'm thrilled
that I get to work in Bitcoin, I'm

1043
01:06:21,718 --> 01:06:25,528
thrilled that I get to work with the best
Bitcoiners in the world, and something

1044
01:06:25,528 --> 01:06:27,798
that's, you know, an absolute privilege.

1045
01:06:28,568 --> 01:06:32,558
Pleasure and a delight, and it really
is a treasure for me, is that I get

1046
01:06:32,558 --> 01:06:34,378
to talk about Bitcoin, like, all day.

1047
01:06:34,528 --> 01:06:38,948
So, um, the novelty of working with
your passion hasn't worn off yet.

1048
01:06:38,948 --> 01:06:44,228
It's still a pleasure and an honor to
be able to talk about Bitcoin all day,

1049
01:06:44,268 --> 01:06:47,693
because I know there's a whole host of
Bitcoiners out there who You know, um,

1050
01:06:47,803 --> 01:06:50,063
are living, basically, separate lives.

1051
01:06:50,083 --> 01:06:53,783
They're, they're living a, you know,
the day to day mundane going to work and

1052
01:06:54,513 --> 01:06:58,233
doing what they do and then, you know,
at any spare moment, they're sitting

1053
01:06:58,233 --> 01:07:01,413
there listening to podcasts like this
and trying to learn about Bitcoin and,

1054
01:07:01,443 --> 01:07:04,403
you know, want to go down that rabbit
hole and get a really deep understanding

1055
01:07:04,403 --> 01:07:10,243
and this is where, I think, one of the
things that's been really fun for me

1056
01:07:10,243 --> 01:07:14,483
to watch as well is the, the advisors
who come on the team and being able to

1057
01:07:14,483 --> 01:07:18,068
grow with them as well and, you know,
Hearing their stories and success around

1058
01:07:18,068 --> 01:07:23,138
talking to clients like it's a lot of
fun having having an impact on someone's

1059
01:07:23,138 --> 01:07:28,288
life and Relieving a will a real world
problem for them that we've been able

1060
01:07:28,288 --> 01:07:33,448
to solve It's a really satisfying level
on a, like, a really heartwarming level,

1061
01:07:33,848 --> 01:07:38,028
regardless of what financial outcomes
are achieved, it's, it's still a

1062
01:07:38,028 --> 01:07:41,388
wonderful feeling to help another human
being solve a big problem for them.

1063
01:07:41,428 --> 01:07:46,408
So, for me, I think a lot of the teams
starting to experience, The joy of being

1064
01:07:46,508 --> 01:07:50,858
able to solve Bitcoiners problems and
this is the fun part that I think as,

1065
01:07:51,038 --> 01:07:54,648
as the price grows, the need for these
type of services is going to continue

1066
01:07:54,648 --> 01:07:59,581
to grow because the sudden realization
of someone being responsible for

1067
01:07:59,581 --> 01:08:03,651
millions or tens of millions of dollars
of Bitcoin without any redundancies or

1068
01:08:03,651 --> 01:08:08,701
fail safes in place, um, it's a very
rare breed where people can deal with

1069
01:08:08,701 --> 01:08:11,971
that, so I think the more services
we have in this space, the better.

1070
01:08:12,561 --> 01:08:15,561
This is where I'm thrilled that,
um, you boys are on the team and

1071
01:08:15,931 --> 01:08:18,411
gonna get to experience all of
this in the very near future.

1072
01:08:19,180 --> 01:08:21,010
No, I, I, I know the feeling.

1073
01:08:21,010 --> 01:08:25,630
It's, it's, it's still, I still pinch
myself that I'm able to do this.

1074
01:08:25,720 --> 01:08:28,750
Um, any Bitcoin stuff really.

1075
01:08:28,960 --> 01:08:31,660
It's, it's just the journey is also real.

1076
01:08:32,129 --> 01:08:34,859
Yeah, I've gotta say it's fun and,
you know, I think back to some of

1077
01:08:34,859 --> 01:08:38,119
those early conversations, Knut,
that you had with our clients

1078
01:08:38,229 --> 01:08:39,739
probably a couple of years ago now.

1079
01:08:40,629 --> 01:08:44,299
And I think, you know, in the early days
of you transitioning to full time Bitcoin.

1080
01:08:45,139 --> 01:08:47,729
To me, any Bitcoiner being
able to do Bitcoin full time

1081
01:08:47,729 --> 01:08:49,979
is Pretty much the end goal.

1082
01:08:50,189 --> 01:08:56,819
And this is where say, from a, from a,
interestingly, from an advice perspective

1083
01:08:57,829 --> 01:09:02,089
and a business perspective, it's far
easier for me to take a bitcoiner and turn

1084
01:09:02,089 --> 01:09:05,519
them into an advisor than it is to take
an advisor and turn them into a bitcoiner.

1085
01:09:06,332 --> 01:09:11,552
Yeah, I mean, transitioning
into a full time Bitcoiner, I'm

1086
01:09:11,572 --> 01:09:16,132
thinking tender reveal, like
you're changing your tender, right?

1087
01:09:16,242 --> 01:09:19,262
That's, switch tenders.

1088
01:09:19,532 --> 01:09:21,862
Yeah, that's what it is.

1089
01:09:22,615 --> 01:09:23,715
Literally, yeah.

1090
01:09:24,065 --> 01:09:25,175
What you're tethered to, right?

1091
01:09:26,155 --> 01:09:26,465
Yeah.

1092
01:09:26,555 --> 01:09:31,055
Yeah, so it's um, I've gotta say
it's a lot of fun and, You know, we

1093
01:09:31,055 --> 01:09:36,125
get, um, we get to have a good, good
laugh with, with the team and, you

1094
01:09:36,125 --> 01:09:37,485
know, catch up on everyone's news.

1095
01:09:37,485 --> 01:09:41,015
And one of the things that I think
is really valuable is that we all

1096
01:09:41,015 --> 01:09:44,645
get to learn together and it's a,
a source of constant improvement.

1097
01:09:44,645 --> 01:09:48,545
It's not like, oh, okay, here's,
here's the best solution and

1098
01:09:48,545 --> 01:09:49,895
we're just going to do this.

1099
01:09:50,025 --> 01:09:50,755
It's like, no.

1100
01:09:51,185 --> 01:09:54,925
You know, we want to have a continual
improvement and, you know, one thing

1101
01:09:55,725 --> 01:09:59,525
when you're dealing with Bitcoin security
and custody, it's eternal vigilance.

1102
01:10:00,315 --> 01:10:05,195
Because you don't get a second chance
at putting the genie back in the bottle.

1103
01:10:05,195 --> 01:10:06,175
Once it's out, it's done.

1104
01:10:06,775 --> 01:10:12,900
So, from a service level perspective,
perfection when it comes to helping

1105
01:10:12,900 --> 01:10:14,530
clients custody their Bitcoin.

1106
01:10:15,180 --> 01:10:20,160
It's the bare minimum that we can deliver
and I've been very fortunate that, you

1107
01:10:20,160 --> 01:10:24,410
know, we haven't lost a single Satoshi,
that collaborative security protocol is

1108
01:10:24,960 --> 01:10:29,880
a really important way of being able to
deliver that and, um, rightly or wrongly,

1109
01:10:29,880 --> 01:10:34,960
we've had, um, quite sadly, we've had
a number of clients who have passed and

1110
01:10:34,960 --> 01:10:38,760
they've been self casting their Bitcoin
and we've still been able to recover that.

1111
01:10:39,035 --> 01:10:40,415
That Bitcoin for the family.

1112
01:10:40,425 --> 01:10:43,955
And this is where to anyone who's
listening about that, that's

1113
01:10:43,955 --> 01:10:46,445
a very serious thing that, you
know, you need to consider.

1114
01:10:46,445 --> 01:10:50,585
And one thing we like to ask
clients is that, you know, if you

1115
01:10:50,585 --> 01:10:53,905
go home after listen to this and
ask your wife, hey, or your partner,

1116
01:10:53,925 --> 01:10:55,205
hey, can you move my Bitcoin?

1117
01:10:56,065 --> 01:10:59,115
If you don't get a satisfactory
answer, then you've got some work

1118
01:10:59,115 --> 01:11:01,865
to do on making sure that you don't
die with the music inside you.

1119
01:11:02,165 --> 01:11:06,705
And that's, that's a really big deal to
your point earlier, Knut, that this is

1120
01:11:06,705 --> 01:11:09,905
the first asset that you can't extract.

1121
01:11:10,225 --> 01:11:10,745
TrueForce.

1122
01:11:11,115 --> 01:11:13,535
It sits in your head and if
you don't have a map to that

1123
01:11:14,105 --> 01:11:17,175
bitcoin, then it's lost forever.

1124
01:11:17,925 --> 01:11:20,775
Or until someone breaks SHA
256 and we can access it.

1125
01:11:21,451 --> 01:11:26,221
Yeah, I love all this, the way, this
way of framing it, because it's so hard

1126
01:11:26,241 --> 01:11:31,611
to debunk those theories, like, and,
and, what play, another way of looking

1127
01:11:31,611 --> 01:11:35,731
at it is that Bitcoin was always there,
uh, and it's just that the hashing

1128
01:11:35,731 --> 01:11:38,941
power was zero up until 2009, uh,

1129
01:11:39,571 --> 01:11:40,581
I love that thought.

1130
01:11:40,701 --> 01:11:41,681
I love that thought.

1131
01:11:41,681 --> 01:11:42,531
It's wild.

1132
01:11:42,841 --> 01:11:46,251
but it's true, it's 100 percent true, like

1133
01:11:46,266 --> 01:11:46,606
Yeah.

1134
01:11:47,451 --> 01:11:50,451
the numbers were there somewhere.

1135
01:11:51,861 --> 01:11:55,821
So yeah, it's goes back to
the, the thing only being

1136
01:11:55,831 --> 01:11:58,971
information and like even deeper.

1137
01:11:58,971 --> 01:12:03,591
It's just data ones and zeros
and, uh, data interpreted,

1138
01:12:03,861 --> 01:12:05,651
uh, can be called information.

1139
01:12:05,681 --> 01:12:07,331
And yeah, that's what Bitcoin is.

1140
01:12:08,097 --> 01:12:09,527
Can I ask a question of you boys?

1141
01:12:10,294 --> 01:12:14,874
I want you to show me, I want, I want
you to show me your latest and greatest.

1142
01:12:15,284 --> 01:12:16,354
This book that's coming out.

1143
01:12:16,584 --> 01:12:16,954
Hit me.

1144
01:12:17,967 --> 01:12:19,997
it's the best Bitcoin book I've ever read.

1145
01:12:24,947 --> 01:12:30,607
No, like, um, so Bitcoin, the inverse
of clown world, uh, started as an

1146
01:12:30,607 --> 01:12:36,367
idea and it started with a long,
long period of writer's block for me.

1147
01:12:36,807 --> 01:12:41,037
So I w I knew I wanted to write something
and I knew I wanted to write another

1148
01:12:41,037 --> 01:12:43,739
Bitcoin book, but I couldn't get started.

1149
01:12:44,014 --> 01:12:48,804
And then sometime during last December,
like early December last year, it just

1150
01:12:48,814 --> 01:12:55,994
started pouring out of me and it's, uh,
inspired by the two years, almost two

1151
01:12:55,994 --> 01:13:01,204
years of conversations we've had with
excellent Bitcoiners now, uh, all of

1152
01:13:01,204 --> 01:13:03,214
those ideas, like started pouring out.

1153
01:13:04,024 --> 01:13:08,094
And then I wanted to look on board
as some sort of editor or something.

1154
01:13:08,094 --> 01:13:11,454
We hadn't really decided what,
what your role was going to be.

1155
01:13:12,154 --> 01:13:19,864
And this sort of the, the, as pretty early
on, as we started looking at the text

1156
01:13:19,864 --> 01:13:23,734
together, we realized that you're not the
editor, you're the co author here, like

1157
01:13:23,734 --> 01:13:29,084
we, we, we should write this as a team,
which turned it into a bigger project.

1158
01:13:29,204 --> 01:13:34,794
And we, uh, I had written around 10
chapters, I think, but then we saw,

1159
01:13:34,874 --> 01:13:40,334
uh, we looked at the chapters at one
point and realized that, uh, this is,

1160
01:13:40,924 --> 01:13:46,619
it's, it's, Referring to the reader,
but it's sort of a hero's journey thing,

1161
01:13:46,669 --> 01:13:51,449
like, uh, so I looked up those, uh,
the conceptual hero's journey and we've

1162
01:13:52,029 --> 01:13:57,059
looked at, uh, uh, I mean, it's been
defined in many very different ways,

1163
01:13:57,229 --> 01:14:03,039
uh, the, the, the hero's journey, but
there's a 12, 12 parter, um, thing.

1164
01:14:04,849 --> 01:14:09,349
With four, like, big sections, and they're
all divided into three parts, and we

1165
01:14:09,369 --> 01:14:14,009
realized that if we just order these
chapters correctly, that we can, we can

1166
01:14:14,009 --> 01:14:21,739
sort of have it in the back of our minds
that they fit into this, uh, um, template,

1167
01:14:22,009 --> 01:14:27,779
uh, Heroes Journey template, and then the
reader is the hero, uh, that removes Clown

1168
01:14:27,779 --> 01:14:32,919
World by, by focusing on, uh, By changing
themselves and focusing on Bitcoin.

1169
01:14:33,349 --> 01:14:35,889
So, um, so that's what we did.

1170
01:14:35,969 --> 01:14:36,999
Uh, so the first.

1171
01:14:38,139 --> 01:14:42,830
The first part of the book sort of
describes, the reality we find ourselves

1172
01:14:42,830 --> 01:14:50,580
in, and clown world, and what makes, why
clown world exists, and why politicized

1173
01:14:50,670 --> 01:14:57,030
money turns into completely arbitrary
issues being focused on, and, and

1174
01:14:57,160 --> 01:15:04,915
bullshit, uh, being emphasized everywhere,
and, Then, um, the midsection of the book

1175
01:15:04,915 --> 01:15:09,795
is sort of a journey of introspection and
this whole concept of your, your satoshis

1176
01:15:09,795 --> 01:15:15,275
and all of that is in there and how, how
much, um, to what, to what extent, uh,

1177
01:15:15,295 --> 01:15:21,535
the mind, your mind creates reality and
how you, how you remove that old world

1178
01:15:21,545 --> 01:15:24,897
by, by, um, focusing on different things.

1179
01:15:24,987 --> 01:15:28,497
And, and then the last part of
a book is sort of hinting at

1180
01:15:28,527 --> 01:15:29,737
what's on the other side there.

1181
01:15:30,177 --> 01:15:32,187
So, and, uh, it's.

1182
01:15:32,557 --> 01:15:40,617
The funniest book yet, I'd say, and a bit
more thorough this time, or we have, uh,

1183
01:15:40,667 --> 01:15:48,507
since that's sort of what Luke added, um,
is like, uh, um, coherency to the thing

1184
01:15:48,527 --> 01:15:54,417
and, and us reading, uh, we did like three
passes with the book, so we read it one

1185
01:15:54,437 --> 01:15:58,777
time first, like my, my original outline,
and then decided this goes here, that

1186
01:15:58,777 --> 01:16:03,402
goes there, and then we read it when, when
the last chapters were, you know, Done.

1187
01:16:03,452 --> 01:16:07,992
So we had another pass and then we had
a third pass and we've had our editor

1188
01:16:07,992 --> 01:16:12,172
Mel, uh, who's fantastic, uh, look
through it too and, and, uh, change a

1189
01:16:12,362 --> 01:16:17,052
synonym here and there and a paragraph
here and there, making it look nicer.

1190
01:16:18,183 --> 01:16:22,933
it is what's on the other side of the, uh,
everything divided by 21 million equation.

1191
01:16:23,403 --> 01:16:27,483
Everything divided by 21 million
equals the inverse of clown world.

1192
01:16:27,603 --> 01:16:32,173
Um, so, so it is the natural follow up to
that book, and we're, we're doing a pass

1193
01:16:32,173 --> 01:16:33,963
with everything divided at the moment.

1194
01:16:34,502 --> 01:16:36,252
a readability pass, I'd say.

1195
01:16:36,252 --> 01:16:40,362
So we are doing a light edit to make the
like the ultimate version of that book.

1196
01:16:40,722 --> 01:16:43,642
And it's, the sentences
are a bit less choppy.

1197
01:16:44,352 --> 01:16:48,142
It was quite a choppy book, so
we're making it a bit more readable.

1198
01:16:48,662 --> 01:16:52,192
And it's, it's good to look back
on that because we see, we see

1199
01:16:52,192 --> 01:16:54,812
so much mirrored in the new book.

1200
01:16:54,862 --> 01:16:58,852
It's just, Literally the the
other side of the equation.

1201
01:16:59,522 --> 01:17:03,142
So we're very proud of it and
we're excited to release it.

1202
01:17:03,152 --> 01:17:04,042
We can't wait.

1203
01:17:05,192 --> 01:17:05,892
What's your take, Luke?

1204
01:17:07,893 --> 01:17:10,613
Well, I was, I was going to let,
Peter, I was gonna let you respond

1205
01:17:10,613 --> 01:17:13,203
a little bit, but sure, I'll just,
I'll add, I'll add one thing.

1206
01:17:13,203 --> 01:17:16,123
It's, it's definitely, it's
definitely funnier and more toxic

1207
01:17:16,143 --> 01:17:17,543
than the previous Knut books.

1208
01:17:17,543 --> 01:17:21,673
And this was from, I hadn't realized
this, actually, because, because it sort

1209
01:17:21,673 --> 01:17:25,073
of felt like everything that we've been
doing for the last two years, this, this

1210
01:17:25,243 --> 01:17:30,533
crazy show, this, uh, formerly Freedom
Footprint show, now Bitcoin Infinity show.

1211
01:17:30,533 --> 01:17:33,343
The, the Freedom Footprint years are, are.

1212
01:17:33,598 --> 01:17:39,268
are the input to this book, but,
but we, we just have a blast, uh,

1213
01:17:39,688 --> 01:17:44,328
joking together and, and, uh, talking
together about anything and everything.

1214
01:17:44,828 --> 01:17:48,818
But what, what actually went into
this, into this book is, it's, it's

1215
01:17:48,828 --> 01:17:53,978
really, there's jokes everywhere and,
uh, uh, the toxicity is, is turned

1216
01:17:53,988 --> 01:17:56,528
up a level and then, and then it
was, it's the process of going back

1217
01:17:56,528 --> 01:17:57,978
and re reading everything divided.

1218
01:17:58,263 --> 01:18:04,493
Uh, that's, that's like, yeah, yeah, you,
uh, you weren't nearly as, as toxic or, or

1219
01:18:04,493 --> 01:18:06,743
even, even nearly as intentionally funny.

1220
01:18:06,743 --> 01:18:10,623
There aren't as many jokes in Everything
Divided and it's, it's like, uh, yeah,

1221
01:18:10,623 --> 01:18:12,203
it's, it's, it's, it's different.

1222
01:18:12,233 --> 01:18:15,533
Uh, um, I'm, I'm proud of my contribution.

1223
01:18:15,533 --> 01:18:17,733
I mean, I'm honored to
be here, uh, really.

1224
01:18:18,103 --> 01:18:22,473
And, uh, as with everything in
Bitcoin, it's, the surreal doesn't end.

1225
01:18:22,483 --> 01:18:25,233
It's less than two years since I, I first.

1226
01:18:25,383 --> 01:18:27,453
Met any bitcoiners face to face.

1227
01:18:27,453 --> 01:18:29,493
And, uh, yeah.

1228
01:18:29,583 --> 01:18:33,573
Uh, re Riga, um, 2022
is my, my first time.

1229
01:18:33,573 --> 01:18:37,143
And, and so Riga 2024 we're, we're
launching this book together.

1230
01:18:37,143 --> 01:18:39,843
And, and so for me, I'm
just, it's just surreal.

1231
01:18:39,843 --> 01:18:40,983
But, but yeah.

1232
01:18:41,163 --> 01:18:42,573
Can, can you explain all of it?

1233
01:18:42,573 --> 01:18:47,973
Uh, uh, thanks Peter, for, for asking,
uh, letting, and I think this is the first

1234
01:18:47,973 --> 01:18:52,263
time we've, we've really gone in depth
about the book on, on this show, so, yeah.

1235
01:18:52,703 --> 01:18:53,588
Uh, what do you think?

1236
01:18:54,928 --> 01:18:56,278
I'm so excited for you.

1237
01:18:56,328 --> 01:19:01,330
I sincerely love you boys and
think you are a great team.

1238
01:19:01,760 --> 01:19:02,820
Quirky as hell.

1239
01:19:03,880 --> 01:19:06,900
And I, I'm really looking
forward to this book.

1240
01:19:06,900 --> 01:19:09,430
Like, the second I saw it I
was like, ah, I cannot wait.

1241
01:19:09,500 --> 01:19:13,714
And then, to me, like, being a
fan of your work, I'm like, yeah.

1242
01:19:14,455 --> 01:19:16,025
Oh, you're going to release a box set?

1243
01:19:16,235 --> 01:19:16,585
Sweet!

1244
01:19:16,635 --> 01:19:18,375
Another thing to just put on the shelf!

1245
01:19:19,785 --> 01:19:20,375
I can't wait.

1246
01:19:20,375 --> 01:19:22,885
Literally, call me and let me know
when I can buy it, because I would

1247
01:19:22,885 --> 01:19:27,615
love to buy not only Clown World,
I want to get the rehashed box set.

1248
01:19:27,715 --> 01:19:33,465
And I think, like I shared with you, the
reading everything divided by 21 million,

1249
01:19:34,008 --> 01:19:36,598
the thoughts in that were so dense.

1250
01:19:37,568 --> 01:19:42,118
It was like the gravity of the sun
relative to other books because and I

1251
01:19:42,118 --> 01:19:47,588
remember reading it and I sat down and I'd
like a dedicated time, it was a book that

1252
01:19:47,608 --> 01:19:53,108
I was really looking forward to reading
and I'd set time aside to focus on this

1253
01:19:53,648 --> 01:19:56,658
and I thought, oh, it's a little book, you
know, I'll get through this in no time.

1254
01:19:56,758 --> 01:19:57,128
And.

1255
01:19:58,063 --> 01:20:03,053
We talked about this, that the density
of thought in that little book had me

1256
01:20:03,083 --> 01:20:06,253
reading like a paragraph at a time and
then I'd just sit back and I'd be like,

1257
01:20:06,253 --> 01:20:12,193
Damn, and I'd have to think about one
little paragraph in there for moments,

1258
01:20:12,193 --> 01:20:16,123
like minutes, maybe even 10 minutes
and what ended up happening was it

1259
01:20:16,123 --> 01:20:19,823
took me probably five times longer to
read that book than I had anticipated.

1260
01:20:20,608 --> 01:20:22,498
Because it was so
thought provoking for me.

1261
01:20:22,498 --> 01:20:25,038
I was like, man, like, the
things you've thought about in

1262
01:20:25,198 --> 01:20:26,958
here are so deep and profound.

1263
01:20:26,968 --> 01:20:29,928
I wanted to, you know, ponder on
what, what the significance of it

1264
01:20:29,928 --> 01:20:35,058
was, but I, I, um, a question I've
got on the release of Clown World.

1265
01:20:35,438 --> 01:20:39,288
Um, one thing I love doing with everything
divided by 21 million was going back

1266
01:20:39,288 --> 01:20:42,188
and listening to it because then I
couldn't stop and ponder because I had

1267
01:20:42,188 --> 01:20:43,868
to keep the train of thought going.

1268
01:20:43,948 --> 01:20:49,123
And I'm wondering, at the time of release
of Clown World, um, Are you going to

1269
01:20:49,123 --> 01:20:51,113
release an audio version of it as well?

1270
01:20:51,153 --> 01:20:52,833
Like, can you get both at the same time?

1271
01:20:53,683 --> 01:20:55,443
Same time, probably not.

1272
01:20:55,843 --> 01:20:59,853
The manuscript is done now, but
we're still waiting on our forward,

1273
01:20:59,893 --> 01:21:04,063
uh, hopefully by the time this is
released, Giacomo has given us our

1274
01:21:04,073 --> 01:21:07,653
forward, and so we, we need that for
the, for the audio version, but we'll,

1275
01:21:07,683 --> 01:21:10,883
we'll, we'll get it to Guy right
away once we, once we have that done.

1276
01:21:10,883 --> 01:21:13,953
This is like a little snapshot in time
here when we've got the thing done,

1277
01:21:13,953 --> 01:21:17,173
but it's not 100 percent done yet.

1278
01:21:17,203 --> 01:21:20,223
So yeah, we'll, we'll have the
audio book, but it might not

1279
01:21:20,223 --> 01:21:22,843
be quite immediately at launch.

1280
01:21:23,403 --> 01:21:27,823
Bitcoin Infinity Day is a pretty
specific day on the calendar and we

1281
01:21:27,913 --> 01:21:29,353
so we can't move the launch date.

1282
01:21:29,793 --> 01:21:30,463
I hope you understand.

1283
01:21:31,333 --> 01:21:31,713
Totally.

1284
01:21:32,228 --> 01:21:33,638
you want a paragraph, Peter?

1285
01:21:34,089 --> 01:21:35,049
Yeah, come on, hit me.

1286
01:21:35,549 --> 01:21:38,759
This is from a chapter
called Freedom Footprint.

1287
01:21:40,359 --> 01:21:42,459
The fight for freedom is never ending.

1288
01:21:42,779 --> 01:21:47,399
Every generation must participate or be
forever shackled to its hamster's wheels.

1289
01:21:47,997 --> 01:21:52,287
The siren's song of the government
has led many adventurers to a state

1290
01:21:52,287 --> 01:21:54,187
of perpetual Stockholm syndrome.

1291
01:21:54,627 --> 01:21:58,187
Even though the beaches are
littered with human skulls, her

1292
01:21:58,187 --> 01:22:00,357
song seduces new sailors daily.

1293
01:22:00,637 --> 01:22:05,217
Free healthcare, universal basic income,
fixed weather, free lunches abound.

1294
01:22:05,937 --> 01:22:09,087
Akin to when a diabetic
forgets their insulin shot.

1295
01:22:09,587 --> 01:22:15,737
The government's anaconda grip
over your life tightens every time

1296
01:22:15,737 --> 01:22:19,107
another freedom is sacrificed on
the altar of perceived safety.

1297
01:22:19,457 --> 01:22:23,127
She is a cunning snake that grows
stronger whenever we forget to resist.

1298
01:22:23,997 --> 01:22:28,177
The history of human civilization is one
of repeating cycles over the centuries.

1299
01:22:28,507 --> 01:22:30,747
Property rights lead to perspective.

1300
01:22:31,037 --> 01:22:31,737
Prosperity.

1301
01:22:31,747 --> 01:22:33,957
Prosperity leads to more
government spending.

1302
01:22:34,197 --> 01:22:36,527
More government spending
leads to bigger government.

1303
01:22:36,607 --> 01:22:40,447
Big government leads to dilutions
of grandeur and totalitarianism.

1304
01:22:40,767 --> 01:22:45,407
And totalitarianism leads to
civil wars and revolutions.

1305
01:22:46,187 --> 01:22:48,917
Are you prepared to take
matters into your own hands?

1306
01:22:49,267 --> 01:22:50,067
Probably not.

1307
01:22:50,137 --> 01:22:53,887
You still live in the world you were
born into and idealistic martyrdom

1308
01:22:53,997 --> 01:22:58,617
is not on most people's bucket lists,
but whenever, whatever small step you

1309
01:22:58,617 --> 01:23:02,727
take to increase your personal freedom
footprint increases the total level

1310
01:23:02,727 --> 01:23:04,787
of freedom dioxide in the atmosphere.

1311
01:23:05,027 --> 01:23:07,237
Freedom dioxide is essential to life.

1312
01:23:07,417 --> 01:23:11,067
It prevents political climate
change and global laming.

1313
01:23:11,771 --> 01:23:12,331
I love it.

1314
01:23:13,311 --> 01:23:17,741
I've got to say, that just resonates so
deeply with me at the moment because in

1315
01:23:17,741 --> 01:23:24,528
Australia we have A change in law coming
into our tax code next year, 1st of July,

1316
01:23:24,898 --> 01:23:30,918
for balances over a certain threshold in
our pension system will now suffer the

1317
01:23:30,918 --> 01:23:33,888
fate of unrealized capital gains tax.

1318
01:23:34,331 --> 01:23:35,201
Oh, holy fuck.

1319
01:23:35,831 --> 01:23:36,521
So evil.

1320
01:23:37,005 --> 01:23:43,315
So, I, I, I cannot tell you the
amount of stress and sleep that

1321
01:23:43,315 --> 01:23:46,985
I have lost over this, but it
affects a big part of my life.

1322
01:23:47,300 --> 01:23:52,530
Maybe 70, 000 Australians presently, but
if you've got a couple of Bitcoin in your

1323
01:23:52,530 --> 01:23:55,760
super fund, it's going to affect every
Australian who's got a couple of Bitcoin

1324
01:23:55,800 --> 01:23:57,290
in their super fund before too long.

1325
01:23:57,770 --> 01:24:03,710
And this to me is the encroachment
that is just beyond the pale for me.

1326
01:24:03,710 --> 01:24:03,860
That's

1327
01:24:04,623 --> 01:24:06,743
like theft straight up.

1328
01:24:07,338 --> 01:24:12,188
yeah, even if you don't believe
tax is theft, which it is, or that

1329
01:24:12,198 --> 01:24:18,218
inflation is theft, which it is,
you know, taking an unrealized gain

1330
01:24:18,628 --> 01:24:20,938
from someone is definitely theft.

1331
01:24:21,388 --> 01:24:23,358
Like, how is it not?

1332
01:24:24,057 --> 01:24:24,857
it's insane.

1333
01:24:24,917 --> 01:24:29,465
And to give you some examples of
this, because I've done the numbers

1334
01:24:29,465 --> 01:24:35,071
on it, I'm not allowed to touch my
retirement money till, till I turn, uh,

1335
01:24:35,101 --> 01:24:39,726
63, I think it is, or 62, but by the
time I get there, it'll be 65 or 70.

1336
01:24:40,426 --> 01:24:43,106
Let's assume it's 16 years
before I can touch it.

1337
01:24:44,116 --> 01:24:49,466
By my calculations, um, I will
have 86 percent less Bitcoin on my

1338
01:24:49,466 --> 01:24:52,906
retirement than I do now through
this unrealized capital gains tax.

1339
01:24:53,624 --> 01:24:54,744
that's so ridiculous.

1340
01:24:56,124 --> 01:24:58,584
We need to set up a voting
accident for you, Peter.

1341
01:24:59,184 --> 01:24:59,554
Hmm.

1342
01:25:01,004 --> 01:25:01,884
I don't think that's possible.

1343
01:25:02,484 --> 01:25:03,764
I'm pretty good at custody.

1344
01:25:06,854 --> 01:25:10,734
I like the way you're thinking, but it's,
I mean, it really is perplexing to me.

1345
01:25:11,004 --> 01:25:11,384
So,

1346
01:25:11,404 --> 01:25:18,573
We've had this discussion before about,
you know, uh, completely clean government

1347
01:25:18,653 --> 01:25:25,183
approved Bitcoin and, uh, coin joined
the sneaky shadow super recoder Bitcoin.

1348
01:25:25,793 --> 01:25:28,603
And you, you, you've been
a proponent of the former

1349
01:25:30,163 --> 01:25:30,803
that's true.

1350
01:25:31,553 --> 01:25:38,103
yeah, it's, uh, I hate to, I hate to
tell you, but this is, uh, this is a case

1351
01:25:38,103 --> 01:25:39,893
of fuck around and find out, I think,

1352
01:25:40,758 --> 01:25:45,328
Yeah, I've got to say, it's particularly
disturbing because it skews the

1353
01:25:45,328 --> 01:25:49,938
incentives dramatically, and I had a
conversation, um, with someone about

1354
01:25:49,938 --> 01:25:54,138
this, but what it does is it robs you
of the ability to compound your return

1355
01:25:54,158 --> 01:25:57,438
through time, and you end up poor.

1356
01:25:57,718 --> 01:25:59,998
But the best thing, um,
That can happen to you.

1357
01:25:59,998 --> 01:26:03,328
And this is doing the numbers,
and this is the crazy part.

1358
01:26:03,778 --> 01:26:09,488
The best outcome that I can hope for, um,
is to end up with 14% of the Bitcoin that

1359
01:26:09,488 --> 01:26:11,658
I've got now that's the best outcome.

1360
01:26:12,357 --> 01:26:18,677
but it is an argument for not doing
KYC Bitcoin ever, like doing it all

1361
01:26:18,697 --> 01:26:20,467
under the table, all black market.

1362
01:26:21,222 --> 01:26:22,192
Like it was intended.

1363
01:26:23,052 --> 01:26:23,562
agreed.

1364
01:26:23,622 --> 01:26:27,372
But if, if you want to catch a,
that Bitcoin in your, in your

1365
01:26:27,372 --> 01:26:31,602
superannuation or pension system in
Australia, it, it is all documented.

1366
01:26:32,297 --> 01:26:34,877
So, there's no getting out
of it that I'm aware of.

1367
01:26:35,357 --> 01:26:40,160
So, it's, I've got to say,
it's an encroachment I am,

1368
01:26:40,280 --> 01:26:41,640
I am none too happy about.

1369
01:26:41,660 --> 01:26:45,700
And I kind of feel like, in light
of how orchestrated the governments

1370
01:26:45,710 --> 01:26:49,250
across the globe have been, or Western
democracies anyway, it feels like a

1371
01:26:49,250 --> 01:26:52,040
trial balloon in Australia to see if
they can get away with it and then

1372
01:26:52,040 --> 01:26:53,120
they'll implement it in Australia.

1373
01:26:53,570 --> 01:26:57,650
All of the other nations once they've
got, got that tick off, tick of approval.

1374
01:26:58,261 --> 01:26:59,451
So how do you get out of it?

1375
01:27:00,826 --> 01:27:00,966
You

1376
01:27:01,171 --> 01:27:01,811
off somewhere?

1377
01:27:02,396 --> 01:27:02,756
No.

1378
01:27:03,296 --> 01:27:09,788
I, I've spoken to five different
accountants and basically, just eat it.

1379
01:27:11,108 --> 01:27:15,038
I need a 30 percent unrealized gain
per annum, so I'm just sitting there

1380
01:27:15,796 --> 01:27:19,636
properly disturbed by the fact that our
government thinks it's acceptable to

1381
01:27:19,646 --> 01:27:23,886
take unrealized capital gains, and what
I'm more concerned about is because of

1382
01:27:23,886 --> 01:27:28,456
the volatility of Bitcoin, what will
end up happening at some point in time

1383
01:27:28,456 --> 01:27:32,926
is when you get a 10x return on your
Bitcoin, It'll go from, say, a balance

1384
01:27:32,926 --> 01:27:34,876
of 3 million to 30 million in a year.

1385
01:27:35,476 --> 01:27:40,026
Um, that represents a 9 million
unrealized capital gains tax bill payable.

1386
01:27:41,116 --> 01:27:43,856
After a 10x year in Bitcoin,
you know what happens.

1387
01:27:43,946 --> 01:27:45,756
You usually have an 80 percent drop.

1388
01:27:46,456 --> 01:27:51,206
And so 30 million will drop to 6
million, but you'll have a 9 million

1389
01:27:51,206 --> 01:27:55,776
outstanding tax bill payable and they'll
take all of your super fund, all of

1390
01:27:55,776 --> 01:28:00,286
your pension money because you've got 9
million outstanding for their tax bill

1391
01:28:00,296 --> 01:28:02,675
and you only have 6 million to pay it.

1392
01:28:03,036 --> 01:28:08,176
So, unless I can pick the top of every
market between now and the next 20

1393
01:28:08,186 --> 01:28:10,506
years, which is an impossible feat.

1394
01:28:11,001 --> 01:28:13,951
I'll probably have no pension money
left by the time I get to retirement.

1395
01:28:14,111 --> 01:28:17,911
So, I've got to say, to say
I'm particularly upset about

1396
01:28:17,911 --> 01:28:19,041
it would be an understatement.

1397
01:28:20,301 --> 01:28:20,851
Sucks.

1398
01:28:22,001 --> 01:28:27,811
So, if you find a solution over there,
in Scandinavia, please ship it in.

1399
01:28:28,411 --> 01:28:29,101
We'd, uh,

1400
01:28:29,281 --> 01:28:33,791
I mean, we, we, we just have the capital
gains, the regular kind, but, uh, yeah,

1401
01:28:33,791 --> 01:28:38,181
I mean, yeah, if there was, if there
was talk of, of putting in unrealized

1402
01:28:38,241 --> 01:28:41,261
capital gains, I mean, yeah, I think,
I think you'd see a lot of Bitcoiners

1403
01:28:41,301 --> 01:28:49,011
leaving pretty quickly and, uh, yeah,
craziness, uh, jurisdictions, uh,

1404
01:28:49,061 --> 01:28:53,731
doing things differently, doing things
unintelligently will be, um, yeah,

1405
01:28:53,781 --> 01:28:56,051
over the next 20, 30 years, I guess.

1406
01:28:56,831 --> 01:28:59,801
Probably lots of differences
between, between jurisdictions.

1407
01:29:00,636 --> 01:29:01,206
absolutely.

1408
01:29:01,206 --> 01:29:03,296
So, anyway, we've got all
that to look forward to.

1409
01:29:03,646 --> 01:29:06,056
On brighter note, I'm really
looking forward to your new book.

1410
01:29:06,156 --> 01:29:07,956
I can't wait to get it,
can't wait to read it.

1411
01:29:08,366 --> 01:29:12,006
Are you celebrating Bitcoin
Infinity Day, hosting an event?

1412
01:29:12,006 --> 01:29:12,146
Bitcoin Infinity Day

1413
01:29:12,656 --> 01:29:12,936
Yeah.

1414
01:29:12,996 --> 01:29:18,156
In Riga, at the basement bar,
which is the first bar in Riga that

1415
01:29:18,166 --> 01:29:20,236
accepts Bitcoin and Bitcoin only.

1416
01:29:20,666 --> 01:29:22,956
So yeah, looking forward to that a lot.

1417
01:29:23,786 --> 01:29:29,526
We have a lot to look forward to in
Riga, there's the Nostriga conference,

1418
01:29:30,836 --> 01:29:33,196
big Nostr event, there's Noob Day Wiz's

1419
01:29:36,479 --> 01:29:40,319
thing there, where we're both speaking
and we're both speaking at the

1420
01:29:40,329 --> 01:29:44,119
regular conference as well and doing
interviews and all this stuff, so

1421
01:29:44,579 --> 01:29:49,599
really looking forward to it, we love
Riga and the team over there, just

1422
01:29:49,799 --> 01:29:52,299
I'm, I'm hoping to make
it to Rega next year.

1423
01:29:53,289 --> 01:29:55,809
Yeah, I might make it to Sydney next year.

1424
01:29:57,249 --> 01:29:57,589
Oh

1425
01:29:57,899 --> 01:29:58,496
we'll see.

1426
01:29:58,689 --> 01:30:00,209
Uh, I'd love to return.

1427
01:30:00,319 --> 01:30:05,609
Like I think every two years is,
uh, uh, I could live with that.

1428
01:30:06,606 --> 01:30:09,079
Yeah,

1429
01:30:09,499 --> 01:30:16,019
You were, um Very, very popular, I've
got to say, and sort of speaking to,

1430
01:30:16,169 --> 01:30:20,989
um, the crew at, um, the Sydney Bitcoin
Meetup, I can tell you before you arrived,

1431
01:30:21,339 --> 01:30:23,489
everyone was so excited to see you here.

1432
01:30:23,489 --> 01:30:26,979
And we understand it's a really long
way from the rest of the world and,

1433
01:30:27,499 --> 01:30:31,119
you know, the fact you guys, or,
Knut, you made it out here, Luke,

1434
01:30:31,289 --> 01:30:35,269
hopefully you can jump on, on the next
time and come out as a two for one.

1435
01:30:35,779 --> 01:30:39,869
But, um, you know, it's a long way from,
um, from Europe, it's a long way from

1436
01:30:39,869 --> 01:30:44,149
anywhere in Australia, so, Any, any
Bitcoin talent that comes out here, we're

1437
01:30:44,149 --> 01:30:46,639
thrilled to see, but, um, to have you.

1438
01:30:46,899 --> 01:30:51,099
Still one of my favorite memories
in Bitcoin is your rendition

1439
01:30:51,249 --> 01:30:52,879
of Fuck You Money with Daz.

1440
01:30:54,679 --> 01:30:55,969
yeah, that was a great moment.

1441
01:30:56,089 --> 01:30:57,059
Uh, yeah,

1442
01:30:57,679 --> 01:30:58,009
Loved

1443
01:30:58,089 --> 01:30:59,499
that's, that's, it's great.

1444
01:30:59,539 --> 01:31:01,519
And it's so fun to play.

1445
01:31:02,359 --> 01:31:08,059
Music with, and yeah, no, just the
community down there in general is great.

1446
01:31:08,139 --> 01:31:11,759
And, uh, uh, yeah, I'd love to see it.

1447
01:31:12,439 --> 01:31:13,929
I'd love to, love to come again.

1448
01:31:14,669 --> 01:31:16,059
well, anytime, you're welcome.

1449
01:31:16,399 --> 01:31:17,059
Fantastic.

1450
01:31:17,089 --> 01:31:19,779
Peter, I think, I think we're,
I think we're winding down here.

1451
01:31:19,779 --> 01:31:23,319
I'm feeling the energy and, uh, so
anything else you, uh, you had on your

1452
01:31:23,319 --> 01:31:25,899
mind before we sign off for today?

1453
01:31:27,199 --> 01:31:30,629
No, I just want to thank you guys for,
you know, just being great citizens in the

1454
01:31:30,779 --> 01:31:32,659
Bitcoin community and doing what you do.

1455
01:31:32,819 --> 01:31:36,129
I have enjoyed immensely
the work you guys put out.

1456
01:31:36,639 --> 01:31:39,289
Um, big fan of the show,
big fan of your books.

1457
01:31:39,349 --> 01:31:41,879
And I can't wait to see what
the new iteration looks like

1458
01:31:41,889 --> 01:31:42,809
with the new co authors.

1459
01:31:42,839 --> 01:31:46,269
So, Luke, um, I can't wait to read it.

1460
01:31:46,309 --> 01:31:47,989
So, uh, let me know when I can buy it.

1461
01:31:48,879 --> 01:31:49,309
Can't wait.

1462
01:31:49,803 --> 01:31:51,773
We'll send you a copy as soon as we can.

1463
01:31:52,423 --> 01:31:52,973
no, I'll pay.

1464
01:31:53,213 --> 01:31:53,823
I like paying.

1465
01:31:54,813 --> 01:31:57,483
all right, Peter, thank you very much.

1466
01:31:57,643 --> 01:31:59,743
This has been the Bitcoin infinity show

1467
01:32:00,633 --> 01:32:01,283
Thank you, boys.

1468
01:32:01,543 --> 01:32:02,443
Love the new title.

1469
01:32:03,663 --> 01:32:04,323
Thanks, Peter.

1470
01:32:04,623 --> 01:32:06,283
and go and check out the Bitcoin advisor.

1471
01:32:06,373 --> 01:32:07,923
Use code freedom.

1472
01:32:07,923 --> 01:32:09,863
Talk to us, whatever, all the stuff.

1473
01:32:10,776 --> 01:32:12,336
This has been the Bitcoin Infinity Show.

1474
01:32:12,346 --> 01:32:13,326
Thank you for listening.

1475
01:32:13,836 --> 01:32:14,606
I just said that.

1476
01:32:15,998 --> 01:32:17,848
That's my job, that's my job to say it.