Paolo Ardoino and Mathias Buus Madsen - Bitcoin Infinity Show #125

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Paolo, Mathias, welcome to
the Bitcoin Infinity Show.

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Thank you very much for joining us.

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Thank you for having us.

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Yeah, good to have you here, guys.

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We're going to talk a bit about
Keet and Holepunch and a little

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bit about Tether today, aren't we?

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Sounds like that's the plan.

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Yeah.

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So thank you again, both for joining us.

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And just to start things off, would you
both mind giving a quick introduction

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on, on yourselves just so our listeners
have the background on you both?

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Sure, I'm Paolo Arduino,
I'm the CEO at Tether.

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I started my career as a
developer, over the last few years.

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I pivoted towards more, strategy and
execution for, Tether and Bitfinex.

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And, co founded with Matthias, Holepunch,
that is, building very, crazy and

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awesome technology, that is gonna be
disrupting the way people communicate.

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Fantastic.

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And, Mathias, over to you.

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Yeah, thank you.

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Yeah, I've been, so I come from
a, a peer-to-peer background.

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I've been working with
peer-to-peer technology.

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The last, I always say five, but
it's probably more like 10 years.

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'cause we all get older.

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I did a lot of work on BitTorrent and
I did a lot of work on JavaScript.

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and a little bit came a little bit
later to to, Bitcoin and I saw a lot

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of potential on how we can use Bitcoin
with pureology and like how we can use.

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P2P technology to bring the same
mission that Bitcoin has, but to,

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to all kinds of data, setting up,
setting all data free and, making

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everything private per default and self
sovereignty and that kind of thing.

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I'm very into that.

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and I've been lucky to work with,
like I said, with Paolo for, many

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years now and, Get a lot of, valuable,
feedback and, idea sharing out of that.

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And we're on a mission to, to,
build some, really cool things.

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In addition to all the things
we've already been building.

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So it's super exciting
and glad to be here.

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Oh, fantastic.

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Matthias, that was a perfect segue
into basically, an introduction to,

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can you tell us about, Holepunch.

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What is Holepunch and what are you doing?

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Yeah, sure.

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like I said, we co founded the
company a couple of years ago.

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Now, we've been building up a team of
really talented peer to peer engineers.

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we're always hiring also.

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So if anybody's listening and want
to join our mission, please, apply.

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we have some really smart
people working with us.

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but we teamed up to basically.

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like I said in my introduction,
I've been working on peer to peer

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technology for many years now and
thinking ahead how we can, stop using

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all that technology when I started it
was only used for basically piracy.

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I'm from the Nordics, and I think Knut
is from the Nordics also, so he knows

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all about, the Nordics know about piracy.

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It wasn't back in the day.

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A lot of very interesting
technologies came out of that.

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But basically, how can we use those ideas
that were proven by piracy back then

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to be really unstoppable, because a lot
of people wanted to stop it, but apply

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that same kind of mindset to the general
data, so we can build actual applications

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that has that kind of quality, that
can withstand the wrath of God.

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that can work without any centralization.

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Actually, that's nobody can shut down, not
even the authorities if they wanted to.

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Basically unkillable and make that
general enough that it can basically

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run any kind of application, solve
a lot of really hot problems.

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it works on your own
computers, your own networks.

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Mobile phones, and tie that up.

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I'm a developer by heart, into a software
stack that people can just build on.

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So not everybody has to go in and
tackle all these problems individually,

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but just give them some software
to solve all this so they can, as

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much as possible, just worry about
making really cool applications

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that we use, the kind of thing.

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And, Yeah, like I said, we've been
working really intensely on this, for

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a long time and in Holepunch, we made
this our co mission to scale this up

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and, deliver a software stack on that.

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and it's been really exciting and
it's been really fun and it's been

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very, challenging, but if it's
not challenging, then why, do it?

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and, especially, with the backing of,
Tether, through Paolo and also just

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expertise from there, we have a good
hand built to deliver this to the world.

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And, the first thing we did was,
like, think about what's, a good first

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application that we can build that
can showcase this, but also something

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we really want to use ourself and see
scale have also have on the world.

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And obviously that was a
communications app, keyed,

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which we was our first project.

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And, we're still in beta and
we're still lots of work to do.

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And we're still iterating that
really heavily, but I like to

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show that you can build these
kind of apps without any kind of.

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central points.

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and we released that also, like
the first thing we released

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when we launched the company.

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And like I said, we're still,
building and still iterating it.

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A lot of fun.

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and then take the software stack
from that, which we call the pair

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runtime and then split that out.

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So anybody else can build
similar apps on top.

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With that same technology stack, and,
yeah, that's, we launched that earlier

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this year also, and, it's been really
exciting so far, and it's, I love going

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to work every day and solve, even though,
you can see on my hair that it's not

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really good for, the head scratching,
but, but, it's really fun, and it's really

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challenging, and it's interesting thing.

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goal as a company, basically to have that
if we go out of business tomorrow, our

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technology continues to exist because
we're not in the loop of anything.

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It's also sometimes really hard to
explain that we don't have any, chip coins

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involved or any kind of limitations on the
stack because we're basically engineering

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it not to be part of it, because that's
the only way you can actually engineer

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these things that they can understand.

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anything, and, yeah, that's,
super exciting and, encourage

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everybody to try to check it out.

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we've, we've both used Keet and I've
certainly enjoyed the experience.

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I, think, the, basics of this,
as I understand it, is that

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it's, entirely on, on both sides.

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The communicators end, or a group of
communicators, it's all on their end,

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and the communication is entirely
peer to peer, as you say, and I guess

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the main thing here is that, what
is Keet really, okay, actually, I'll

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back up a little bit here, what is
the basics of Keet as, say, a product?

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What is the easiest way that
you would explain what it is?

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But we're basically, the thing
is actually really simple.

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We're basically trying to just build
a world class communications app that

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works to a large degree, like normal
communication apps that you know,

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like Signal, Telegram, WhatsApp.

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Just with all the centralization
tucked away, with all the costs of

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running it tucked away, and then
adding all the features that also we

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can, because we're peer to peer like.

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It's in a file sharing.

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I could limit some things when
there's no limits because it's just

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between people and stuff, but like
to a large degree, just wrap that up.

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Take all the technology.

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People don't care about technology.

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That's the shouldn't like
we're, technologists.

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We loved it, but don't have that
surface off too much to the user.

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Just have the user use it as any
other app, but then just have it be

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100 percent private per default, 100
percent like no strings attached.

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It just works.

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if we get caught off by a.

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From the internet tomorrow, it will
still work, that kind of thing,

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but deliver that in a way, and this
is always our mission where users

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don't really need to worry about it.

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It just works.

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And, it works the same way to a large
degree as their other apps work,

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except obviously, there's no phone
numbers and things like that, because

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there's a lot of, issues with that.

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Very cryptographically sound and, but
trying always not to bubble it up.

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And I think that's, so it's
actually a really simple mission,

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but it's obviously really hard.

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And that requires a lot of smart people,
but luckily our users in a good way,

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don't need to be very smart about that.

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So I think that's, the goal.

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Yeah, a quick one there.

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No strings attached starts
with the letters Nostr,

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so is, Keet and Nostr, do they go
mix well together or, is there an

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integration there between the two?

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I see a lot of similarities here.

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what's the story there?

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the, I tried to explain the
differences between Kit and Nostr.

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I think Nostr is a very interesting
protocol, but also is very, simple.

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And, the way I like to describe it is
that, if you remember, if you are familiar

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with the history of filesharing, Starting
from, from the first one, super, super

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centralized, and then eventually every
single step, from, even LimeWire, and then

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you have Knutella, and you have all of
them, you get to a decentralized platform.

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And the last one, the most
decentralized one, that is BitTorrent.

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the story, the history of file
sharing proved that every time

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you try to centralize something,
it ends up badly, right?

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if you have any special node in the
system that does a little bit more than

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others and requires more resources than
others to run, that will end up badly.

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You might end up in a small
room with a lamp in your room.

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Point it to your face, and then everyone
suddenly will stop running an indexer.

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That reminds me about Nostr structure.

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of course, I praise the efforts on the
Open Source side and work, and so on.

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That, of course, is great.

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the reality is that if you are building
a peer to peer system, or if you are

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building a very resilient communication
system, if you think about Nostr, you

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would imagine that if you have, 10
million or 100 million users, the number

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of relays would be probably less than
the square root of the number of users.

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So that surface, although a
hundred million users is very,

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they're not attackable, right?

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But the surface of, of, the
relays is much more attackable.

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look at what happen, what will
happen, what is happening with, also

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the coin joinin platforms, right?

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very similar.

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If, if something, the beauty of
KIT versus Nostr is that in KIT you

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have number of relays is actually
equal to the number of users because

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the users are their own relays.

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and they can relate, actually they can
act as relays for others to increase,

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to, further their connectivity.

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That is how we think a technology
that, has to be ready for the

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apocalypse and resilient to
the wrath of God should, work.

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the, if you have, a log number of users or
square root of number of users as relates,

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I don't think it's cool technology.

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It will work for, of course, better,
will work better than centralized,

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Technologies like WhatsApp and so on,
or Twitter, but eventually will not

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work if, when you will need it the most.

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Because the point is that we will
not know what will happen when we

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will need this technology the most.

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Today, not for everyone, but the
world is still almost at peace.

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Things might unfold, maybe in the future,
and maybe sooner rather than later.

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But when things will unfold, you will need
the best of the best technology, the ones

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that, the one that is truly independent,
the one that is truly peer to peer.

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it cannot, it's not really peer to
peer if you have specialized relays,

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because it's not peer to peer, but
where you have super peers randomly.

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Yeah, the difference here, between
the Realize and not having any other

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centralized infrastructure in the picture
is certainly an interesting distinction.

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We're definitely getting into a bit of
the weeds, of this Keit architecture.

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I hadn't heard anything about
that you can act as a next

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connector or something like that.

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So there's a couple of related things.

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I know there was an announcement
about what, what, the, pair

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runtime, is that right?

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Is it, this is, can you talk a little
bit about, about that or can any

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other, the ways that this is, this
is growing in your whole, platform,

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Yeah, sure.

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so basically when we talk about ideas,
internally, also from our software

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background, we never, We want to
solve just like a single problem.

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We want to solve a small problem
that then can solve it for everybody.

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So it's we're not set out in
the world to build necessarily

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communication technology.

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We want to build technology that can
just send data around efficiently, so

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you can build any kind of app on top.

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So really, we want We're all about
modularity and all about, taking these

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things to the extreme so we can repurpose
it into any kind of application and

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other people can, get value out of it.

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And, that's been our
mission from the get go.

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So basically, like Paolo said,
when we built Keed, Keed.

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We took all of these primitives we have,
it's all open source on our GitHub, that

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can do various things, relay encrypted
data in a way that's completely private,

221
00:13:26,048 --> 00:13:30,518
nobody can read it, and in a generalizable
way, so it can run on any applications.

222
00:13:30,518 --> 00:13:35,648
We have databases that can interpret, work
with this data on device, but still in a

223
00:13:35,648 --> 00:13:41,301
way where nobody else knows what's going
on, fully private, and we spent many years

224
00:13:41,301 --> 00:13:43,421
perfecting this, and it's still ongoing.

225
00:13:44,126 --> 00:13:45,436
so like huge project.

226
00:13:45,486 --> 00:13:49,936
And we, similar to like connectivity, it
might seem really easy if you don't know

227
00:13:49,936 --> 00:13:53,786
what's going on that, connecting this
computer to another computer and another

228
00:13:53,786 --> 00:13:59,706
place, but it's really hard because ISPs
and, your internet providers, et cetera,

229
00:14:00,206 --> 00:14:01,466
they don't really want you to do that.

230
00:14:01,466 --> 00:14:03,796
So there's a lot of firewalls involved
that you have to work around to get

231
00:14:03,796 --> 00:14:08,806
around back in the darn days when I was
working with P2P, it was a lot easier.

232
00:14:08,806 --> 00:14:09,536
It's only getting harder.

233
00:14:09,536 --> 00:14:11,056
And we had to invest a lot in.

234
00:14:11,376 --> 00:14:12,046
Making that work.

235
00:14:12,326 --> 00:14:15,356
This is all really, hard problems
that took a long time to solve.

236
00:14:15,406 --> 00:14:19,026
But luckily, all of these are like
generalizable problems where you just

237
00:14:19,096 --> 00:14:21,466
solve them once to a large degree,
and then it's solved for everybody.

238
00:14:21,696 --> 00:14:24,926
If you put them in a modular
framework where anybody can

239
00:14:25,436 --> 00:14:26,746
put the Legos together on top.

240
00:14:27,436 --> 00:14:28,856
And that's what we've
been heavily invested in.

241
00:14:28,856 --> 00:14:33,391
And then as we were building Keed,
we realized that basically And Keete

242
00:14:33,391 --> 00:14:37,521
is just like 95 percent of these Lego
blocks that are applicable for anything.

243
00:14:37,521 --> 00:14:42,570
So why not take all this stuff, pack it up
for free, we don't make any money on it.

244
00:14:43,230 --> 00:14:47,320
and an open source runtime that we're just
giving away so other people can contribute

245
00:14:47,390 --> 00:14:49,690
to it, but also build their own apps.

246
00:14:49,691 --> 00:14:53,605
And, and, the more peer to
peer apps the world has, the

247
00:14:53,605 --> 00:14:54,535
better from my point of view.

248
00:14:55,795 --> 00:14:59,025
and, and document it and make
it really easy to install.

249
00:14:59,025 --> 00:15:02,145
And I think actually Paolo said
something interesting because as

250
00:15:02,145 --> 00:15:05,315
soon as you have, one point of
centralization, you can always unravel it.

251
00:15:05,835 --> 00:15:09,435
and coming from the Bitcoin days, I
remember how quickly things can unravel.

252
00:15:09,955 --> 00:15:13,605
people went to jail for linking
to things because authorities,

253
00:15:13,605 --> 00:15:15,315
when they crack down, really hard.

254
00:15:16,775 --> 00:15:20,705
so if you have one weak spot,
it will be taken advantage

255
00:15:20,705 --> 00:15:22,095
of at some point by somebody.

256
00:15:22,865 --> 00:15:28,655
And so even things like distributing
updates to your software can be really

257
00:15:28,655 --> 00:15:31,575
hard because this often requires like
a central point, like you go to a

258
00:15:31,575 --> 00:15:32,865
website and you don't download it.

259
00:15:33,515 --> 00:15:36,435
And so all apps built on
our runtime, for example.

260
00:15:36,880 --> 00:15:39,310
It's distributed through the runtime,
which is a little bit mind bending.

261
00:15:39,440 --> 00:15:42,940
So all apps are peer to peer data
applications themselves, and the

262
00:15:42,940 --> 00:15:47,110
network doesn't care, which means that
we can continue to distribute updates

263
00:15:47,110 --> 00:15:51,190
even, if everything gets shut down,
you only need like a bootstrap for the

264
00:15:51,190 --> 00:15:52,580
first install when you get the app.

265
00:15:52,620 --> 00:15:54,490
That's a little bit
easier problem to solve.

266
00:15:54,990 --> 00:15:55,900
So we're thinking that in.

267
00:15:56,630 --> 00:16:00,110
At every level, because it's really,
important to us to, basically

268
00:16:00,110 --> 00:16:02,440
learn from everything that happened
in the past and then actually

269
00:16:02,480 --> 00:16:03,660
build things that are resilient.

270
00:16:04,280 --> 00:16:09,550
And we take this to a degree where
I'm sure we could move 10 times faster

271
00:16:09,550 --> 00:16:14,700
if we just let go a little bit of
that idea, because it is easier to

272
00:16:14,700 --> 00:16:18,550
just put all the data in one place
or put all the updates in one place.

273
00:16:19,040 --> 00:16:21,630
But then it's then we're just
building the same old thing that's

274
00:16:21,630 --> 00:16:23,370
going to die eventually anyway.

275
00:16:23,830 --> 00:16:27,730
So we're very, uncompromising in that
mission of actually decentralizing

276
00:16:27,730 --> 00:16:33,080
everything from updates to, to,
to data, and then also always

277
00:16:33,080 --> 00:16:35,170
solving in a way where everybody
can take advantage of that.

278
00:16:35,170 --> 00:16:39,058
And then the final thing I'll say about
that is that, so every time we update.

279
00:16:39,790 --> 00:16:42,820
That runtime, those building blocks
of that runtime, every time we

280
00:16:42,820 --> 00:16:45,333
fix a bug, every time we make it
faster, every app becomes faster.

281
00:16:45,333 --> 00:16:46,310
That's also very exciting.

282
00:16:46,340 --> 00:16:48,910
It's because you're building the
whole infrastructure into this

283
00:16:49,000 --> 00:16:50,270
layer that runs on your phone.

284
00:16:51,330 --> 00:16:53,920
And it's all somewhat generalizable.

285
00:16:54,140 --> 00:16:57,430
Every time we fix something, it's
just better for the entire ecosystem.

286
00:16:57,430 --> 00:16:59,190
And that's obviously really, exciting.

287
00:16:59,190 --> 00:17:03,719
And like I said, actually,
no strings attached.

288
00:17:04,554 --> 00:17:10,044
Yeah, so I, I think you were referring
to the trial of the Pirate Bay

289
00:17:10,044 --> 00:17:12,564
people there in, In Sweden, right?

290
00:17:13,784 --> 00:17:14,314
which

291
00:17:14,564 --> 00:17:18,814
lucky enough to meet a couple of
them in Denmark and it's been very

292
00:17:18,814 --> 00:17:21,164
fun to hear about their journey and,

293
00:17:21,953 --> 00:17:27,403
and there, there's, there was a great
documentary made about it called TPBAFK.

294
00:17:27,773 --> 00:17:32,093
So the Pirate Bay Away From Keyboard,
about that whole trial and how,

295
00:17:32,093 --> 00:17:34,083
corrupt the system was even back then.

296
00:17:34,693 --> 00:17:37,973
And, throwing people in
jail for providing links.

297
00:17:38,233 --> 00:17:43,053
they didn't do any more wrong than
Google did, from a certain perspective.

298
00:17:43,533 --> 00:17:48,123
And, I remember even, before
BitTorrents, there was a program called.

299
00:17:49,468 --> 00:17:52,848
DC or Direct Connect Do you remember that?

300
00:17:53,203 --> 00:17:58,368
I used to, it was one of my first
introductions to decentralization.

301
00:17:58,528 --> 00:17:58,928
Yeah.

302
00:17:59,353 --> 00:18:05,273
it as you just shared your, like a
Google Drive for everyone or something.

303
00:18:05,283 --> 00:18:10,280
Like you just shared parts of
your file tree to everyone who

304
00:18:10,280 --> 00:18:15,318
wanted to peek into it, Yeah,

305
00:18:15,318 --> 00:18:15,434
with

306
00:18:15,499 --> 00:18:18,989
I find, I find it interesting what you
said, because I think it's interesting

307
00:18:18,989 --> 00:18:23,989
to think that I think to a large degree,
the whole decentralization movement that

308
00:18:24,389 --> 00:18:28,239
was happening with BitTorrent back in
the day got shut down because At some

309
00:18:28,239 --> 00:18:32,239
point, authorities figured out that they
could just block DNS requests to shut it

310
00:18:32,239 --> 00:18:35,399
down for normal people, and as soon as
they did that, it was actually effective.

311
00:18:35,829 --> 00:18:38,999
And to Paolo's point, one point
of centralization, no matter

312
00:18:38,999 --> 00:18:40,289
how weak it is, they're done.

313
00:18:41,834 --> 00:18:43,834
and they tried to kill the
technology elsewhere, but that's

314
00:18:43,834 --> 00:18:44,874
actually what killed them.

315
00:18:44,874 --> 00:18:48,114
Then, obviously, alternatives came
that people could pay for, and it

316
00:18:48,114 --> 00:18:51,494
also shows that people actually want,
to stay on the right side of things.

317
00:18:51,494 --> 00:18:54,874
I think, normally, now it's going
very much in the wrong direction

318
00:18:54,874 --> 00:18:58,404
again, because now we're back at
abusing that centralization again.

319
00:18:59,284 --> 00:19:00,264
the cycle will repeat.

320
00:19:00,829 --> 00:19:04,829
But, yeah, like any point of weakness
will be attacked at any point.

321
00:19:05,640 --> 00:19:07,860
So what are the drawbacks
to decentralization?

322
00:19:08,270 --> 00:19:11,790
I think we and our audience
certainly understand the benefit

323
00:19:11,810 --> 00:19:16,630
of decentralization, what you gain
by decentralizing, but what do

324
00:19:16,630 --> 00:19:24,080
you naturally give up in terms of
the user experience and the, ease

325
00:19:24,510 --> 00:19:27,370
of, use, the convenience factor?

326
00:19:28,670 --> 00:19:31,910
yeah, I'm sure Paola has stuff to say
here, but I'm just, I love talking

327
00:19:31,910 --> 00:19:33,590
about this stuff, so I'll go first.

328
00:19:34,500 --> 00:19:34,720
Mattias.

329
00:19:35,110 --> 00:19:35,670
I will pile

330
00:19:35,800 --> 00:19:38,670
it's, I think it's a really
interesting question, first of all,

331
00:19:38,670 --> 00:19:42,405
because it's one of those questions
where You know, obviously I want to

332
00:19:42,405 --> 00:19:46,305
say there's no drawbacks, but like
anything, it's a balance, right?

333
00:19:46,305 --> 00:19:49,575
Because it's not that there's drawbacks
and advantages, there obviously is, but

334
00:19:49,575 --> 00:19:50,935
it's also just a different paradigm.

335
00:19:51,746 --> 00:19:55,676
first of all, with sensitization, I
think one of the biggest thing I noticed

336
00:19:55,676 --> 00:19:59,351
also with developers is that we all
come out of systems, education systems.

337
00:19:59,931 --> 00:20:03,461
That teaches how to think
centralized, which makes us biased

338
00:20:03,461 --> 00:20:05,151
towards centralized solutions.

339
00:20:05,871 --> 00:20:08,391
and that's, I remember my whole
curriculum was about servers

340
00:20:08,401 --> 00:20:09,351
and clients and stuff like that.

341
00:20:10,071 --> 00:20:13,401
it's actually really hard to think
about decentralization as a developer.

342
00:20:13,461 --> 00:20:16,476
And I think that's actually part of
why a lot of people think it's hard.

343
00:20:16,816 --> 00:20:19,196
It's complex because it is complex,
but also because we're just like, we've

344
00:20:19,196 --> 00:20:21,896
been trained massively in the other
direction, and it's really hard to go

345
00:20:21,896 --> 00:20:27,846
back because decentralization can be
as simple as what Knut said about DC

346
00:20:27,876 --> 00:20:31,466
Connect, DC where it's just, oh, I'm
just browsing other people's computers.

347
00:20:31,466 --> 00:20:32,046
That's amazing.

348
00:20:32,316 --> 00:20:34,986
That's a really, simple experience, and
it's like something you can never do

349
00:20:37,006 --> 00:20:40,156
But like in today's world, people,
the first thing I always get asked

350
00:20:40,156 --> 00:20:41,236
is like, how do I get a username?

351
00:20:41,236 --> 00:20:44,716
And I'm like, that hasn't, usernames
have an inherent centralization

352
00:20:44,716 --> 00:20:45,806
and there's trade offs there.

353
00:20:45,816 --> 00:20:47,236
And we need to think
that through and stuff.

354
00:20:47,989 --> 00:20:50,149
and most applications don't
necessarily require usernames.

355
00:20:50,219 --> 00:20:52,719
I'm not saying that's a bad feature, but
it's that's where you need to think more

356
00:20:52,719 --> 00:20:56,709
about the trade offs because there's
governance involved to some degree.

357
00:20:57,449 --> 00:21:00,629
But for the core experience, and I think
that's what we've shown in Keith so far.

358
00:21:00,869 --> 00:21:05,394
Like I said, we're still, There is
actually very few trade offs you

359
00:21:05,394 --> 00:21:09,154
need to do once you understand the
technological changes you need to do.

360
00:21:09,854 --> 00:21:14,564
Then, there's obviously tons
of upsides also, it's much

361
00:21:14,564 --> 00:21:16,084
easier to do big data transfers.

362
00:21:16,514 --> 00:21:19,464
Money is less of a concern, which
actually changes the thinking,

363
00:21:19,494 --> 00:21:21,454
how you think about features.

364
00:21:21,454 --> 00:21:24,094
And that, again, is something we've
been trained in a lot as developers,

365
00:21:24,134 --> 00:21:25,254
because we think centralized.

366
00:21:25,704 --> 00:21:28,004
When we talk about features
at Holepunch, hey, we should

367
00:21:28,004 --> 00:21:30,174
add podcast recording to Keed.

368
00:21:30,799 --> 00:21:33,759
Normally somebody would say, that's going
to cost a lot of money to host that data.

369
00:21:34,589 --> 00:21:37,589
And we just always we don't even have
that discussion because it doesn't matter

370
00:21:37,629 --> 00:21:38,879
because it's just between the users.

371
00:21:39,529 --> 00:21:41,189
And then it's more about like the UX.

372
00:21:41,649 --> 00:21:44,389
But then other simple, like I
said, other simple discussions,

373
00:21:44,589 --> 00:21:45,789
let's add a username index.

374
00:21:45,849 --> 00:21:48,269
That's where we're like, okay, let's
think that through because there's like

375
00:21:48,739 --> 00:21:51,649
various things to think about there
because there's no centric governance,

376
00:21:51,649 --> 00:21:53,919
and we don't want to introduce
that because again, one point is.

377
00:21:54,134 --> 00:21:54,474
It's bad.

378
00:21:55,824 --> 00:21:59,214
so it's, more like you really need to
think differently and it's really hard

379
00:21:59,214 --> 00:22:01,004
to wire your brain to think differently.

380
00:22:01,364 --> 00:22:04,134
but once you get past that point,
I think it's, super interesting.

381
00:22:04,134 --> 00:22:09,204
And I, think actually developers care
way more than normal people because,

382
00:22:09,534 --> 00:22:12,714
developers care a lot about how links
look and links and structure and that.

383
00:22:12,714 --> 00:22:16,014
And normal people are just used
to just clicking buttons and apps

384
00:22:16,094 --> 00:22:17,944
and going with the flow on that.

385
00:22:18,024 --> 00:22:20,874
And that's also what we're seeing,
I think, with, a lot of key

386
00:22:21,931 --> 00:22:28,417
I think the, when it comes to, definitely
the hiring is, has proven a little bit

387
00:22:28,417 --> 00:22:36,447
more challenging, as Matthias was saying,
when you are told that the cloud is

388
00:22:36,467 --> 00:22:45,397
your friend, That, hosting, on, Google
Cloud or AWS is the right thing to do.

389
00:22:45,427 --> 00:22:49,547
And, of course, it's get, it
got cheaper and cheaper, so now

390
00:22:49,547 --> 00:22:51,017
everyone can host their websites.

391
00:22:51,047 --> 00:22:55,957
But the reality is that 70 percent
of, the entire internet knowledge

392
00:22:56,007 --> 00:22:58,817
is hosted by three, in the data
centers of three companies.

393
00:23:00,689 --> 00:23:03,419
developers should think about
that, should think about the

394
00:23:03,419 --> 00:23:08,689
fact that internet was born to be
point to point and peer to peer.

395
00:23:08,769 --> 00:23:14,419
And, we are very far away
from that initial concept.

396
00:23:16,664 --> 00:23:20,944
over the years, especially with the
boom in, in the year 2000 for the

397
00:23:20,944 --> 00:23:23,854
internet boom, and bubble, then,

398
00:23:25,874 --> 00:23:31,114
realized that, holding people's
data is the way to go, with

399
00:23:31,114 --> 00:23:33,054
social media and social network.

400
00:23:33,074 --> 00:23:34,264
That is even worse.

401
00:23:34,564 --> 00:23:39,324
And so you have these friendly
advertisements that are telling you,

402
00:23:39,809 --> 00:23:45,629
That, with a smiley face that, you
know, yeah, you should, upload all your

403
00:23:45,629 --> 00:23:48,459
data on, Apple cloud or Google cloud.

404
00:23:49,389 --> 00:23:52,589
And in general, cloud
backups are great, right?

405
00:23:52,589 --> 00:23:56,139
You want to have some sort of redundancy
in your life, but the reality is that

406
00:23:56,149 --> 00:23:57,979
you should be able to upload those.

407
00:23:58,494 --> 00:24:03,574
In an encrypted way, and yet most of
this data sits unencrypted because,

408
00:24:04,004 --> 00:24:07,774
the big tech companies have to
decrypt it and use it for, to milk the

409
00:24:07,774 --> 00:24:13,084
information to pay for, for, another
month of their new data centers.

410
00:24:14,724 --> 00:24:19,214
the, issue is, we need, we have so much
power in our hands through our phones.

411
00:24:19,774 --> 00:24:22,504
the phones that we have today are
much more powerful than the phones

412
00:24:22,554 --> 00:24:27,024
that we, or even the computers that
we have 10 years ago or 5 years ago.

413
00:24:27,314 --> 00:24:32,719
And so We should, we are at a stage
where we can use this, this, this, we

414
00:24:32,719 --> 00:24:36,419
can use this hardware, not only for
communicating, but also for in the future

415
00:24:36,419 --> 00:24:39,129
for AI processing and inference and so on.

416
00:24:39,659 --> 00:24:45,719
is, we need to, understand that the
word cannot be connected to Google.

417
00:24:45,769 --> 00:24:50,469
I mean if, we cannot found, we
cannot be a function of Google.

418
00:24:50,469 --> 00:24:52,359
We cannot be a function of AWS.

419
00:24:52,629 --> 00:25:00,949
And so I think that, the, there is,
escalating pace of, towards centralization

420
00:25:01,279 --> 00:25:04,279
and it's almost a black hole.

421
00:25:04,339 --> 00:25:08,929
And eventually, the, we'll attract all
the lights and if we are too close to

422
00:25:08,929 --> 00:25:11,719
it, no lights will come out anymore.

423
00:25:12,219 --> 00:25:17,789
And, that's why we want to really to
double down on this technology, because

424
00:25:17,809 --> 00:25:19,529
it's not going to be easy, right?

425
00:25:19,529 --> 00:25:23,259
It's going to be very challenging,
and most of the people don't

426
00:25:23,259 --> 00:25:24,799
care, as Maite has said before.

427
00:25:24,809 --> 00:25:28,159
Most of the people will
think, oh, it's Why do I care?

428
00:25:28,359 --> 00:25:33,179
everything works with WhatsApp and,
and, Signal, but Signal announced

429
00:25:33,189 --> 00:25:39,419
that their 2023 costs for data centers
and data center costs are around 50

430
00:25:39,419 --> 00:25:46,559
million, and they, apart from the
mobile coin that was not The best

431
00:25:47,139 --> 00:25:50,715
thing that they could do, there is,
it's not easy for them to monetize.

432
00:25:51,145 --> 00:25:55,645
And the problem is that if you are, you're
basically almost the only way to monetize

433
00:25:55,655 --> 00:25:58,415
it is to sell your customer's data.

434
00:25:59,165 --> 00:26:01,635
So if you don't want to sell your
customer data, eventually your

435
00:26:01,635 --> 00:26:03,215
service will not be sustainable.

436
00:26:03,415 --> 00:26:07,235
So the only way to make it sustainable
is actually going back to peer, where

437
00:26:07,285 --> 00:26:11,255
you can leverage people, infrastructure,
people, connectivity, people, phones,

438
00:26:11,255 --> 00:26:17,510
people, processing power, Deliver very
high quality communication system.

439
00:26:18,080 --> 00:26:23,950
And while people don't care, people,
people don't care until they care.

440
00:26:23,960 --> 00:26:27,030
And when they will care, it
will be probably usually too

441
00:26:27,030 --> 00:26:29,270
late if nothing exists yet.

442
00:26:30,550 --> 00:26:34,380
when people will care is
because shit is hitting the fan.

443
00:26:34,900 --> 00:26:41,760
And, you really want to have a solution
that is not, that will survive if,

444
00:26:43,400 --> 00:26:47,810
the countries around you or around
the country where you live are not

445
00:26:47,810 --> 00:26:49,640
going to be nice to your own country.

446
00:26:50,150 --> 00:26:52,220
So that's the view to peer-to-peer.

447
00:26:52,250 --> 00:26:56,090
The peer-to-peer wheel system will
keep working if your neighbor countries

448
00:26:56,090 --> 00:26:57,650
are not going to be nice towards you.

449
00:26:58,260 --> 00:27:03,650
That's independence, that's resiliency,
those are terms that, we need to

450
00:27:03,700 --> 00:27:07,660
take very seriously, especially
seeing where the, world is going to.

451
00:27:08,227 --> 00:27:16,117
Yeah, I think we're all primed for,
to, have a, what's the word, proclivity

452
00:27:16,507 --> 00:27:22,077
for, centralization, centralized
solutions, from a very young age.

453
00:27:22,497 --> 00:27:26,577
this is the state, this is what it
is like, state funded schooling.

454
00:27:27,822 --> 00:27:30,472
state funders or state subsidized media.

455
00:27:31,692 --> 00:27:38,922
We are, like brainwashed into, trusting,
institutions all, like all our lives.

456
00:27:38,932 --> 00:27:44,959
So I think that is somewhat connected
to why people so reluctant to be

457
00:27:44,969 --> 00:27:46,609
vigilant about this on the internet.

458
00:27:46,919 --> 00:27:54,192
I think the two go hand in hand that we,
take the comfortable way, or most people

459
00:27:54,212 --> 00:27:58,472
take the comfortable route of, not taking
responsibility for their own stuff.

460
00:27:58,964 --> 00:28:02,824
not only on the internet, but
outsourcing responsibility to the

461
00:28:02,824 --> 00:28:07,224
government is basically the, another
side of the same coin, right?

462
00:28:07,717 --> 00:28:11,237
also find, I think also in that note,
I think I find it very interesting,

463
00:28:11,237 --> 00:28:15,297
especially being from a small country
like Denmark that doesn't have a

464
00:28:15,297 --> 00:28:17,557
lot of homegrown infrastructure.

465
00:28:17,557 --> 00:28:22,866
And I'm just seeing how much communication
with some of the public entities is

466
00:28:22,866 --> 00:28:26,476
happening through centralized platforms
like Facebook and things like that, where

467
00:28:26,726 --> 00:28:32,206
okay, so But even though we centralize
it, we also centralize it in companies

468
00:28:32,206 --> 00:28:34,856
that we don't even have any control over
in different countries where we probably

469
00:28:34,856 --> 00:28:37,496
have, let's face it, no rights at all.

470
00:28:37,896 --> 00:28:42,256
So it's it's like hyper centralization,
especially from the weakest point of view.

471
00:28:42,256 --> 00:28:44,466
And I think that's super problematic.

472
00:28:44,466 --> 00:28:45,756
And I'm always.

473
00:28:46,211 --> 00:28:50,779
Thinking it's, weird that we're not
talking about that more in especially

474
00:28:50,779 --> 00:28:53,919
like from, when you look at the things
that they're trying to do in the EU,

475
00:28:53,949 --> 00:28:56,279
they're almost trying to just push
more and more in that direction,

476
00:28:56,279 --> 00:28:57,639
which I find even more interesting.

477
00:28:58,359 --> 00:28:58,869
yeah, definitely.

478
00:28:58,869 --> 00:29:02,299
It's like a, it's, a huge problem
and it's only getting bigger.

479
00:29:02,299 --> 00:29:03,059
And that's, why

480
00:29:03,672 --> 00:29:08,782
So to what level can
decentralization actually get there?

481
00:29:08,922 --> 00:29:11,462
What is the limit to decentralization?

482
00:29:11,472 --> 00:29:13,872
And I'll calibrate this with an example.

483
00:29:13,872 --> 00:29:18,262
The internet itself, you said it was
built to essentially originally be

484
00:29:18,262 --> 00:29:20,492
decentralized, but we don't have it.

485
00:29:20,787 --> 00:29:24,707
For physical links, like individual
physical links between each other,

486
00:29:25,367 --> 00:29:30,127
the fiber or whatever the wire is
goes together into another group of

487
00:29:30,127 --> 00:29:34,817
wires, which eventually go into some
backbone, which is operated by a company.

488
00:29:34,827 --> 00:29:37,437
And then that goes into
the global Internet.

489
00:29:37,687 --> 00:29:42,467
And so somewhere it centralizes into
telecom companies and other services.

490
00:29:42,467 --> 00:29:47,867
It might be decentralized on one level,
but there is a layer of centralized

491
00:29:47,867 --> 00:29:52,357
services that make the internet work
that isn't necessarily the so called

492
00:29:52,357 --> 00:29:54,007
cloud providers and that sort of thing.

493
00:29:54,007 --> 00:29:57,387
So is there a limitation
to how far this can go?

494
00:29:58,249 --> 00:30:04,579
I think the, in general, sure, there is,
there are the ISPs and, their physical

495
00:30:04,579 --> 00:30:09,769
infrastructure is in part centralized, but
also you start having redundancy, right?

496
00:30:09,769 --> 00:30:12,339
So for example, the
backbones are redundant.

497
00:30:12,369 --> 00:30:16,219
There are multiple companies
running, cross connects across

498
00:30:16,219 --> 00:30:17,549
different areas of the world.

499
00:30:17,909 --> 00:30:19,929
Now you have Starlink if you want.

500
00:30:20,189 --> 00:30:24,589
So you start getting, and by the way,
that is a way, great way to start

501
00:30:24,589 --> 00:30:29,334
decentralizing connectivity because
Starlink will not be the only one that

502
00:30:29,354 --> 00:30:33,754
will run satellites, so there will
be multiple companies that will allow

503
00:30:33,754 --> 00:30:37,354
you to connect through satellites,
plus you have normal cabling.

504
00:30:37,804 --> 00:30:42,314
So you will have, it will become
a huge mesh network, it's already

505
00:30:42,544 --> 00:30:45,194
in part, but it will become more
and more a huge mesh network.

506
00:30:46,095 --> 00:30:50,665
of course, if someone will cut the
wires around your house and will beam

507
00:30:50,675 --> 00:30:55,095
the, will use a beamer to kill your
wireless, it's going to be a problem.

508
00:30:55,965 --> 00:31:00,795
in general, you will always find a
way, even with a pigeon, to start

509
00:31:00,805 --> 00:31:02,535
sending bits out of your house.

510
00:31:04,685 --> 00:31:08,555
I think the most important part is,
you have to be in control of your

511
00:31:08,555 --> 00:31:15,665
own data, and then, you need to send
this data with the shortest path to

512
00:31:15,665 --> 00:31:17,115
the people that you want to talk to.

513
00:31:17,145 --> 00:31:22,060
Right now, I usually make this example,
because I think it's When we do this

514
00:31:22,060 --> 00:31:27,340
presentation, we try to make people
think about how much waste also

515
00:31:28,200 --> 00:31:29,910
centralized systems have created.

516
00:31:30,320 --> 00:31:36,310
imagine you live in Rome, you have, you
live in Rome and you have your family.

517
00:31:36,330 --> 00:31:40,070
Most of people live nearby their families.

518
00:31:40,470 --> 00:31:43,320
That is a classic thing among humans.

519
00:31:44,110 --> 00:31:46,850
90 percent of the people
live nearby their families.

520
00:31:47,375 --> 00:31:50,835
Maybe nearby, like 10km, 50km nearby.

521
00:31:51,685 --> 00:31:55,105
If you talk to your family, every
single message, every single photo

522
00:31:55,105 --> 00:31:59,775
that you will send to your family, that
message will travel, instead of going

523
00:32:00,345 --> 00:32:05,185
50 kilometers in a nearby town where
your mother lives or your father lives,

524
00:32:05,755 --> 00:32:10,085
it will travel every single message,
every single bit of every single video

525
00:32:10,085 --> 00:32:14,675
call or every single bit of every photo
will travel 5, 000 miles to Frankfurt

526
00:32:14,925 --> 00:32:16,775
just to go back 50 kilometers from you.

527
00:32:17,260 --> 00:32:22,440
Imagine how much government spent in
order to create these internet lines

528
00:32:22,840 --> 00:32:28,090
and to empower them to make it bigger,
more, with more capacity when the

529
00:32:28,090 --> 00:32:30,820
majority of the people are talking to
people and they're in the same area.

530
00:32:32,080 --> 00:32:36,850
Peer to peer make things with, allows
with a lower latency, allows to

531
00:32:36,850 --> 00:32:42,080
save on bandwidth, allows to save
on cost of global infrastructure.

532
00:32:42,210 --> 00:32:49,255
So that's how, actually, We can
create better mesh networks, more

533
00:32:49,255 --> 00:32:53,505
resilient mesh networks, just because
data will always find the shortest

534
00:32:53,505 --> 00:32:54,945
path from one point to another.

535
00:32:55,456 --> 00:32:57,726
And still all roads lead to Rome.

536
00:32:57,766 --> 00:32:58,206
So

537
00:32:59,056 --> 00:33:01,736
I'm Italian, so I need to
use Rome as an example.

538
00:33:02,476 --> 00:33:02,696
Yeah.

539
00:33:04,226 --> 00:33:04,756
That's all good.

540
00:33:05,366 --> 00:33:05,876
I find it.

541
00:33:05,906 --> 00:33:08,786
I find also, I think the discussion
here is really interesting also compared

542
00:33:08,786 --> 00:33:12,476
to Bitcoin, because I also think it's
actually the scaling longer term.

543
00:33:12,766 --> 00:33:14,026
It's, a lot, large thing about.

544
00:33:14,656 --> 00:33:20,946
Sovereignty, I think, like how, Bitcoin
kind of told us very direct terms that if

545
00:33:20,946 --> 00:33:22,406
you have a key pair, you have your money.

546
00:33:22,976 --> 00:33:24,936
And it doesn't matter
where you are in the world.

547
00:33:24,936 --> 00:33:28,226
If you have that key pair, you have
a way to, to get to that money.

548
00:33:28,786 --> 00:33:32,246
And the means of transportation, it's
actually very uninteresting in that

549
00:33:32,246 --> 00:33:34,066
sense, because you have it with you.

550
00:33:34,676 --> 00:33:37,866
The Internet today, the centralized
Internet is designed in a way where,

551
00:33:38,766 --> 00:33:40,186
what does it mean to go to Facebook?

552
00:33:40,546 --> 00:33:44,313
it's really hard to explain because it's
like some certificate that issued by

553
00:33:44,323 --> 00:33:47,083
somebody, and we don't really, there's.

554
00:33:47,988 --> 00:33:52,608
Some, cabal of companies that manages
them, there's some regulations around

555
00:33:52,608 --> 00:33:55,048
it, but we don't really actually
understand it that well as normal people.

556
00:33:55,378 --> 00:33:58,978
Technically, we can understand it, but
it's very, centralized and it's very,

557
00:33:58,978 --> 00:34:02,178
opaque and it's very built into the
infrastructure in that way, in a bad way.

558
00:34:02,948 --> 00:34:07,178
And, with Pure Technology, we're like
taking the same approach as Bitcoin

559
00:34:07,208 --> 00:34:10,718
here and saying, You're just a key
pair, and the other person is just a key

560
00:34:10,718 --> 00:34:13,198
pair, and there's a bunch of protocols
around that, but the transportation

561
00:34:13,198 --> 00:34:14,248
is actually not that interesting.

562
00:34:14,758 --> 00:34:16,108
Right now, we use the internet to do it.

563
00:34:16,108 --> 00:34:19,128
We'll probably do that for a long
time, but there's no reason why we

564
00:34:19,128 --> 00:34:23,088
can take the same technology we have
right now and in 50 years run it on,

565
00:34:23,338 --> 00:34:26,985
laser beams or something else, because
we're taking the software and feedback.

566
00:34:26,985 --> 00:34:30,708
I think, actually, that's the
main thing to think about in that.

567
00:34:31,183 --> 00:34:31,693
Discussion.

568
00:35:32,568 --> 00:35:38,278
when, Paolo, when you were talking about
that people don't care, when you were

569
00:35:38,278 --> 00:35:41,538
saying that people don't care because
WhatsApp just works, I was at the

570
00:35:41,538 --> 00:35:46,028
same time thinking that's the parallel
of people saying that, that, I don't

571
00:35:46,028 --> 00:35:47,738
care because Visa just works, right?

572
00:35:47,978 --> 00:35:54,018
And so the parallel between Bitcoin and
what you're doing at Holepunch, Keet,

573
00:35:54,038 --> 00:35:58,443
everything else here, really seems
to be tracking along the same line.

574
00:35:58,443 --> 00:36:03,903
And I guess there's the connection
that, I don't, I won't say all, but

575
00:36:03,923 --> 00:36:07,353
a lot of the people involved are
already in the Bitcoin ecosystem.

576
00:36:07,353 --> 00:36:11,173
But can you comment on is there a little
more of a connection there between,

577
00:36:11,773 --> 00:36:14,683
between Holepunch and Keet and Bitcoin?

578
00:36:15,288 --> 00:36:22,743
Yeah, Bitcoin definitely is working
and servicing, I think, in a good

579
00:36:22,743 --> 00:36:24,943
way, many, people in communities.

580
00:36:26,323 --> 00:36:31,213
The users of Bitcoin today are,
unfortunately, and also that relates to

581
00:36:31,493 --> 00:36:36,903
Tether, Still, mostly, I think in the
Western world, in the richer countries,

582
00:36:36,933 --> 00:36:45,393
as a way to save wealth and, as a store
of value, more than a means of exchange.

583
00:36:45,868 --> 00:36:46,898
For different reasons, right?

584
00:36:46,898 --> 00:36:49,868
We'd like a network that would
improve, of course, over time, and

585
00:36:49,869 --> 00:36:54,464
there will be different approaches,
but, still, the world is not yet

586
00:36:54,474 --> 00:36:59,064
using Bitcoin, but the world will use
Bitcoin when shit will hit the fan.

587
00:37:00,204 --> 00:37:04,154
but the beauty of Bitcoin is that an
option is already there, is available,

588
00:37:04,294 --> 00:37:08,044
and when something bad will happen,
people immediately, with a snap

589
00:37:08,044 --> 00:37:11,404
of a finger, will turn to Bitcoin,
and will have it and can use it.

590
00:37:12,694 --> 00:37:14,204
don't have that in communications.

591
00:37:14,504 --> 00:37:20,374
What is our communica our parallel with
communications, if we don't have it?

592
00:37:20,644 --> 00:37:26,246
I don't know, because if, if suddenly
centralized communications will, be

593
00:37:26,246 --> 00:37:31,278
blocked, or privacy in communications
will be blocked, and you cannot, you

594
00:37:31,278 --> 00:37:34,608
cannot use Whatsapp, or Whatsapp has
to start giving all the information

595
00:37:34,608 --> 00:37:35,808
to every single government.

596
00:37:36,678 --> 00:37:39,958
and the government will become
more evil than what they are today,

597
00:37:40,468 --> 00:37:41,848
also western governments then.

598
00:37:42,525 --> 00:37:47,225
we wanted to build the exact parallel as
we said it, we just tried to describe it,

599
00:37:47,625 --> 00:37:50,575
that with Bitcoin, for communications.

600
00:37:50,795 --> 00:37:56,375
We need to have something that,
Kit will take time to, since there

601
00:37:56,375 --> 00:37:59,995
are so many alternatives that are
working as with your, you can make

602
00:37:59,995 --> 00:38:01,195
the parallel with Visa, right?

603
00:38:01,255 --> 00:38:05,055
Visa is working today, so people
are still using a lot of Visa, but

604
00:38:05,055 --> 00:38:08,085
if something will happen, they will
use Bitcoin from one day to another.

605
00:38:09,500 --> 00:38:15,720
Whatsapp is working, and Zoom is
working, and Google Meet is working, so

606
00:38:15,720 --> 00:38:20,760
people don't feel the urge, but there
will be a trigger point when people

607
00:38:21,060 --> 00:38:24,740
will feel the urge at some point in
their lives, because something happened

608
00:38:24,750 --> 00:38:30,060
around them, and we need to make sure
that kit will be available to them.

609
00:38:30,700 --> 00:38:35,680
and will be an option, will be stable,
will be well designed so that when

610
00:38:35,690 --> 00:38:38,660
they will need it the most that
option will be available to them.

611
00:38:39,278 --> 00:38:40,228
Yeah, fantastic.

612
00:38:40,238 --> 00:38:45,938
And so I think the follow up I have,
and just to get back to the earlier

613
00:38:45,938 --> 00:38:50,388
discussion a little bit with Nostr, the
communication in terms of messaging, I

614
00:38:50,388 --> 00:38:56,388
absolutely see that and directly in what
Keet is, I already absolutely see that.

615
00:38:56,788 --> 00:39:03,338
Is there a goal to get somewhere towards
more like Social media, social networking,

616
00:39:03,878 --> 00:39:07,778
things like that in a, in certainly
a decentralized way, but right now

617
00:39:07,778 --> 00:39:12,128
there, there isn't something like that
as I understand it, coming from, Keet.

618
00:39:12,178 --> 00:39:13,298
So is, that a goal?

619
00:39:13,298 --> 00:39:14,048
Is that on the roadmap?

620
00:39:14,598 --> 00:39:20,108
Yeah, it is on the roadmap, it's something
that, so we had to start with the

621
00:39:20,108 --> 00:39:25,508
thing that we thought was more urgent
and also the thing that could have

622
00:39:25,508 --> 00:39:27,168
been, would have been a game changer.

623
00:39:27,758 --> 00:39:32,238
again, sure, social media is very
important, especially in, in, in,

624
00:39:32,653 --> 00:39:36,473
In difficult situation, you want to
make, you want to get news, and you

625
00:39:36,473 --> 00:39:42,343
want to get unbiased news, so you
want to use, social networks to, to

626
00:39:42,343 --> 00:39:43,613
see what's happening in the world.

627
00:39:44,223 --> 00:39:48,833
But we, think that the most sacrosanct
thing that you need in your life is

628
00:39:48,853 --> 00:39:53,553
to be able to talk to your family
and friends in any situation with

629
00:39:53,553 --> 00:39:55,003
the highest privacy possible.

630
00:39:55,483 --> 00:39:59,663
that's the first thing that we tackled,
and also was a way to battle test the

631
00:39:59,663 --> 00:40:05,618
technology with, with, Keet you can do
high quality video calls as well, so if

632
00:40:05,618 --> 00:40:11,918
we are able to tackle in the best way
possible privacy and extreme scalability

633
00:40:12,218 --> 00:40:15,788
of peer to peer communications, then
on top of that foundation we can build

634
00:40:15,818 --> 00:40:19,318
also social media and every single
other application that we have in mind.

635
00:40:19,923 --> 00:40:22,023
But first, we wanted to
tackle the hardest problem.

636
00:40:22,203 --> 00:40:23,693
I'm not sure, Matthias,
if you want to add on.

637
00:40:24,293 --> 00:40:25,892
No, I think it makes a lot of sense.

638
00:40:25,892 --> 00:40:29,673
And I also just want to say,
as a, probably like one of the

639
00:40:29,673 --> 00:40:33,913
most prolific Keet users, I use
Keet right now also as a very,

640
00:40:35,913 --> 00:40:38,623
like a social media, we have big
public rooms where we talk about

641
00:40:38,713 --> 00:40:40,303
Keet and talk about technology.

642
00:40:41,498 --> 00:40:46,128
I get a lot of the value I would
get otherwise on Twitter X from that

643
00:40:46,168 --> 00:40:52,378
because I, it's like a public platform
for me to, get ideas out there, but

644
00:40:52,378 --> 00:40:54,338
also interact with users directly.

645
00:40:54,338 --> 00:40:57,578
And I think, there's many ways
to take them as a young app.

646
00:40:57,578 --> 00:40:59,538
And we're talking about this
a lot, obviously it has to be

647
00:40:59,538 --> 00:41:01,698
simple, has to be parent approved.

648
00:41:04,483 --> 00:41:07,563
My parents can figure it out, but I
think, to a large degree, all really

649
00:41:07,563 --> 00:41:13,183
healthy social networks that are actually,
to some degree, a communication app.

650
00:41:13,713 --> 00:41:16,803
And it's also just a really good
way to get local news and to get

651
00:41:16,803 --> 00:41:19,153
this locality that Peter is good at.

652
00:41:19,153 --> 00:41:23,053
That doesn't mean that we might not also
make other things, but I think it's a

653
00:41:23,053 --> 00:41:26,343
hard line to set the difference between
a social network and a communications app

654
00:41:26,353 --> 00:41:28,193
when it's structured correctly, I think.

655
00:41:28,868 --> 00:41:32,678
Yeah, and this, another thing that
came to mind just as, you were talking

656
00:41:32,688 --> 00:41:37,598
about these parallels, as, I understand
it, the account system with Keet is,

657
00:41:37,608 --> 00:41:39,763
essentially still just a, Key pair.

658
00:41:40,083 --> 00:41:41,373
Correct me if I'm, wrong,

659
00:41:41,863 --> 00:41:42,203
Very, true.

660
00:41:42,813 --> 00:41:47,223
you backups with the
same, the same 1224 words.

661
00:41:47,643 --> 00:41:49,233
Is, that fully interoperable as well?

662
00:41:49,233 --> 00:41:51,058
Is that, could be your Bitcoin key.

663
00:41:51,058 --> 00:41:51,458
That could be

664
00:41:52,643 --> 00:41:55,803
We use the, same, I can't remember
the date, the BIP, but there's a

665
00:41:55,803 --> 00:41:57,273
BIP for like during key generation.

666
00:41:57,273 --> 00:41:59,103
So we can use it also in
the future for other things.

667
00:41:59,723 --> 00:41:59,993
and,

668
00:42:02,013 --> 00:42:07,253
and you have those words, you have your
account, and that's, we never store that.

669
00:42:07,253 --> 00:42:12,623
And that's like your sovereignty
and, that lets you use it also,

670
00:42:13,420 --> 00:42:16,200
that lets you use it seamlessly
on different devices also.

671
00:42:16,200 --> 00:42:18,840
It's one of those things that I love
because I know what's going on when

672
00:42:18,840 --> 00:42:22,930
you use keyed Insanely hard problem,
but it's solved by the runtime,

673
00:42:23,720 --> 00:42:27,060
and it just works seamlessly and
I think that's, the beauty of it.

674
00:42:27,900 --> 00:42:30,610
I think there's some UX stuff to figure
out about onboarding that stuff a

675
00:42:30,610 --> 00:42:31,780
little bit easier for normal people.

676
00:42:31,780 --> 00:42:34,020
That's probably to a large
degree the same for Bitcoin.

677
00:42:34,860 --> 00:42:38,350
something I'm always, like the first step
is always the hardest, I think, but, yeah.

678
00:42:39,370 --> 00:42:39,380
I

679
00:42:41,050 --> 00:42:44,140
The other part that I would do
with Bitcoin is that, with Bitcoin,

680
00:42:44,340 --> 00:42:52,290
with your 12, 24 words, you
can access your private wealth.

681
00:42:54,030 --> 00:42:57,660
in the same way, so you, the beauty
of Bitcoin is that you can remember

682
00:42:57,660 --> 00:43:03,180
12 24 words, you cross borders,
and you carry with you your wealth.

683
00:43:04,170 --> 00:43:06,830
You can do the same thing with
your digital private life.

684
00:43:07,090 --> 00:43:10,290
You remember 12 24 words, they
could be the same by the way.

685
00:43:10,715 --> 00:43:18,375
And, whatever happens, you can spawn
back your digital private life fully

686
00:43:18,375 --> 00:43:23,585
encrypted from, one of your other
devices that you connected that

687
00:43:23,615 --> 00:43:24,805
is somewhere else in the world.

688
00:43:25,235 --> 00:43:32,815
So when you start seeing and understanding
the unlock in terms of also human

689
00:43:32,815 --> 00:43:39,435
resilience that this creates is very,
insane and can create a very powerful,

690
00:43:41,855 --> 00:43:46,345
that can be used for, to create a very,
powerful applications, again, not just

691
00:43:46,375 --> 00:43:47,725
communications, but you can build.

692
00:43:48,285 --> 00:43:51,105
Really any sort of
interaction, even mapping.

693
00:43:51,305 --> 00:43:55,455
Imagine peer to peer mapping,
where basically data is not

694
00:43:55,465 --> 00:43:56,735
stored in one single location.

695
00:43:56,745 --> 00:44:03,825
You can access, tiles of the maps,
that are more nearby, you from, local

696
00:44:03,845 --> 00:44:06,365
people that curate them in a better way.

697
00:44:06,655 --> 00:44:15,090
So the, level of, of type of applications
that you can build, All unlocked by

698
00:44:15,090 --> 00:44:20,710
the same technology that is being
used by Bitcoin is very, incredible.

699
00:44:21,414 --> 00:44:23,394
Yes, absolutely it is.

700
00:44:23,454 --> 00:44:30,234
And what do you think of the idea that
all of this stuff is just interoperable

701
00:44:30,274 --> 00:44:35,154
now based on essentially you have
your private key and there you go.

702
00:44:35,154 --> 00:44:36,934
It doesn't matter the technology stack.

703
00:44:37,474 --> 00:44:42,994
Is that sort of an agnostic thing
where you can take your data

704
00:44:43,044 --> 00:44:44,534
to any one of these systems?

705
00:44:45,509 --> 00:44:51,179
What you're building with Keith being
one, Nostr being another, Bitcoin being

706
00:44:51,179 --> 00:44:52,609
a third, what do you think of that?

707
00:44:53,674 --> 00:44:57,684
Yeah, the fact that, data is yours, right?

708
00:44:57,684 --> 00:44:59,754
So you should do whatever
you want with your data.

709
00:44:59,784 --> 00:45:03,524
That is, I think, an axiom
that, that we should assume.

710
00:45:03,524 --> 00:45:07,264
And, it shouldn't even, we shouldn't
even discuss about this, right?

711
00:45:07,284 --> 00:45:09,944
We are discussing about it
because people are trying to

712
00:45:09,964 --> 00:45:11,874
take away this axiom from us.

713
00:45:12,354 --> 00:45:12,894
But, definitely.

714
00:45:13,959 --> 00:45:18,719
The, you are a key pair, and you're
basically, because you are, you just

715
00:45:18,719 --> 00:45:25,069
need, you are, unique, and uniqueness
is expressed by the cryptography

716
00:45:25,119 --> 00:45:32,139
around those 24 words, and that's, that
also is a way to prove your identity,

717
00:45:32,139 --> 00:45:36,764
it's like, It's the best, it's a
mathematical way to prove your identity.

718
00:45:36,784 --> 00:45:42,774
No one can, can steal that from you,
of course, but no one will, can track

719
00:45:42,774 --> 00:45:46,164
it as no one can impersonate, should
not be able to impersonate you.

720
00:45:46,164 --> 00:45:50,964
So it's, it's truly powerful.

721
00:45:52,111 --> 00:45:58,311
also think it's like worth remembering
here also in this discussion that a lot

722
00:45:58,311 --> 00:46:02,761
of very high valuable data for yourself
is actually not that big, but centralized

723
00:46:02,801 --> 00:46:04,571
platforms take it hostage anyway.

724
00:46:05,141 --> 00:46:08,271
if you take all my chat history and,
I have pictures, but like a couple

725
00:46:08,271 --> 00:46:10,621
of the pictures would probably be
bigger than all my chat history ever.

726
00:46:11,781 --> 00:46:14,761
but a lot of that, those messages
have a lot of value for me, especially

727
00:46:14,761 --> 00:46:17,771
personally and also being able to search
through it and have infinite history,

728
00:46:17,781 --> 00:46:19,091
it's very valuable for me personally.

729
00:46:19,496 --> 00:46:23,136
But it's very scary for me if that's on
some other platform where it gets leaked

730
00:46:23,136 --> 00:46:24,796
at some point, et cetera, et cetera.

731
00:46:25,516 --> 00:46:29,956
But we already have the devices, just
normal consumer devices that we buy,

732
00:46:30,056 --> 00:46:33,026
that we all have, phones, computers,
whatever, that have more than enough

733
00:46:33,056 --> 00:46:35,416
capacity to store multiple copies of this.

734
00:46:35,466 --> 00:46:38,386
Again, you might have some media that
might push that a little bit over,

735
00:46:38,386 --> 00:46:45,461
but In terms of like per user, data
production, it's a manageable problem.

736
00:46:45,461 --> 00:46:47,711
And I think it's it's interesting

737
00:46:50,291 --> 00:46:54,871
how, much, providers force us to think
in terms of giving that data away,

738
00:46:54,871 --> 00:46:55,961
even though we could easily store it.

739
00:46:56,861 --> 00:47:00,411
And this is even more important
when we think about potential,

740
00:47:00,701 --> 00:47:01,881
AI applications, right?

741
00:47:01,881 --> 00:47:06,241
So imagine your best assistant.

742
00:47:06,911 --> 00:47:13,681
And, the, the Paolo's assistant should
go through all the emails of my emails,

743
00:47:14,251 --> 00:47:21,011
my kids chats, my old social stuff,
and be able to be my best assistant.

744
00:47:21,471 --> 00:47:24,291
But in order to do that,
I have two options.

745
00:47:24,341 --> 00:47:28,901
Either, I imagine that chat, OpenAI
would come with an assistant.

746
00:47:29,381 --> 00:47:34,536
They would upload, All the information on
their servers, crunch that information,

747
00:47:34,856 --> 00:47:39,716
and then, use it to serve, service
me, but also service their own needs.

748
00:47:40,386 --> 00:47:43,956
And that can become very scary,
also because they wear a hat.

749
00:47:43,956 --> 00:47:46,356
It's public, right?

750
00:47:47,526 --> 00:47:52,136
you don't want your most intimate
codes that your best personal assistant

751
00:47:52,136 --> 00:47:56,716
could know, to be on somewhere
else, rather than your devices.

752
00:47:57,516 --> 00:48:02,156
And so people were, people never
uploaded, at least most of the

753
00:48:02,156 --> 00:48:08,416
people would never upload medical,
information on Facebook, right?

754
00:48:08,466 --> 00:48:12,626
But they are uploading it on
ChatGPT to get a second opinion.

755
00:48:14,286 --> 00:48:19,516
so things can be, get even scarier than
what we described today because, we,

756
00:48:19,516 --> 00:48:23,556
discussed about social media, that is
basically, the fun part where we upload

757
00:48:23,586 --> 00:48:25,986
photos, when we are eating something cool.

758
00:48:26,511 --> 00:48:30,201
But, things can be, get, become
scarier when it comes to privacy

759
00:48:30,201 --> 00:48:32,991
and data control with ai.

760
00:48:33,421 --> 00:48:40,741
So I, I want to see a future where I have
a local AI that is integrating Kit, can

761
00:48:40,741 --> 00:48:46,051
read all key messages that I have from my
local phone on my local device, and can

762
00:48:46,081 --> 00:48:51,931
become the best powers assistant possible
without renouncing to, to my privacy, and

763
00:48:51,931 --> 00:48:54,391
also still governed by the same 24 words.

764
00:48:55,751 --> 00:49:01,771
the fine tuning that is applied on that
LLM should stay local to my own device,

765
00:49:01,811 --> 00:49:03,251
and it should be in control of that.

766
00:49:03,611 --> 00:49:09,111
And still, the current power of the
devices that we have makes it possible.

767
00:49:10,311 --> 00:49:12,121
We should not fall for the same lie.

768
00:49:12,741 --> 00:49:17,721
We don't need, we, of course,
big data centers with GPUs are

769
00:49:17,721 --> 00:49:22,141
important for training a huge
LLM, but that is a generic LLM.

770
00:49:22,576 --> 00:49:25,276
You can take that one and then
fine tune it with your own

771
00:49:25,276 --> 00:49:26,756
data and run it by yourself.

772
00:49:27,126 --> 00:49:30,456
And for most of it, unless you want
to do crazy things, that is more

773
00:49:30,456 --> 00:49:35,186
than enough and can run on modern
GPUs or local GPUs or your phones.

774
00:49:35,526 --> 00:49:40,286
So we should not fall in the trap
of that, that brought us to think

775
00:49:40,286 --> 00:49:43,576
that the only way to build a
system was through a client server.

776
00:49:43,941 --> 00:49:49,611
We should start thinking that we
can build local experiences without

777
00:49:49,741 --> 00:49:52,891
having an API all the time connected
to someone else's data center.

778
00:50:58,576 --> 00:50:59,696
super interesting.

779
00:51:00,736 --> 00:51:03,976
you briefly just briefly
mentioned tether before and I

780
00:51:03,986 --> 00:51:05,196
think we need to get into this.

781
00:51:05,686 --> 00:51:11,836
So we're running a little short on time
here because we're, curious to know,

782
00:51:12,376 --> 00:51:19,196
how tether works and, why, It's a tool
on the path to hyperbitcoinization.

783
00:51:19,936 --> 00:51:22,956
what is it and how much
of a maxi are you, Paolo?

784
00:51:23,196 --> 00:51:26,776
And, what, made this thing happen?

785
00:51:26,776 --> 00:51:28,646
Can you give us the
story here about Tether?

786
00:51:29,579 --> 00:51:31,519
Tether started in 2014.

787
00:51:31,879 --> 00:51:36,719
I personally am, I consider myself
a maxi, but running Tether, you

788
00:51:36,719 --> 00:51:38,649
could say that, I'm a shit coiner.

789
00:51:38,649 --> 00:51:39,549
I don't mind, right?

790
00:51:40,189 --> 00:51:44,139
I like what I do, and I think
I'm net positive, so it's okay.

791
00:51:46,535 --> 00:51:49,655
Tera was born in 2014
with a very simple idea.

792
00:51:51,305 --> 00:51:54,825
we had different crypto exchanges,
not, us, but in general, there were

793
00:51:54,925 --> 00:51:57,475
a few crypto exchanges in, 2014.

794
00:51:57,989 --> 00:52:02,234
was Bitfinex, Coinbase, Kraken, Bitstamp.

795
00:52:03,254 --> 00:52:07,414
OKCoin, there was BTCChina,
and just a few others, right?

796
00:52:07,624 --> 00:52:09,494
Around 10 that were meaningful.

797
00:52:10,321 --> 00:52:17,061
The problem back then was to do,
trading arbitrage, you sell Bitcoin

798
00:52:17,061 --> 00:52:19,601
on the exchange where the price
is higher, you take the dollars.

799
00:52:20,076 --> 00:52:22,456
From that sale, you move the dollars
on the exchange where the price

800
00:52:22,456 --> 00:52:24,266
is lower and rinse and repeat.

801
00:52:24,526 --> 00:52:25,366
That is called arbitrage.

802
00:52:25,616 --> 00:52:29,766
It is a property of every single
efficient financial system.

803
00:52:30,574 --> 00:52:34,144
And that also helps to keep
the price of Bitcoin in line

804
00:52:34,144 --> 00:52:35,174
across different exchanges.

805
00:52:35,214 --> 00:52:38,079
But, that was very, hard in 2014.

806
00:52:39,044 --> 00:52:42,844
If you remember in 2013 was the
first year that Bitcoin broke the,

807
00:52:43,374 --> 00:52:45,304
Bitcoin price broke the 1, 000.

808
00:52:45,304 --> 00:52:47,144
But on some exchanges the price was 1.

809
00:52:47,144 --> 00:52:49,204
2, on others was 900.

810
00:52:49,494 --> 00:52:53,824
And in order to arbitrage that price
difference, you have to move dollars

811
00:52:53,834 --> 00:52:56,784
from one exchange to another and
Bitcoin from one exchange to another.

812
00:52:56,784 --> 00:52:59,214
You can move Bitcoin from
one exchange to another.

813
00:52:59,654 --> 00:53:02,564
10 minutes, but dollars
would take days, right?

814
00:53:02,564 --> 00:53:03,554
International wires.

815
00:53:03,944 --> 00:53:08,450
And so of course the opportunity
arbitrage was go, was, fully gone

816
00:53:08,870 --> 00:53:13,340
by, by, the, time the wire was
hitting the, receiving exchange.

817
00:53:14,170 --> 00:53:20,073
and the reason why we created that was,
USDT was simply to put the dollar on a

818
00:53:20,343 --> 00:53:23,408
blockchain so that we could have the same
user experience that we had with bitcoin.

819
00:53:24,318 --> 00:53:26,388
And to make arbitrage very, simple.

820
00:53:26,688 --> 00:53:31,688
For the first two years, almost no
exchange apart Bitfinex understood USDT.

821
00:53:31,688 --> 00:53:39,358
Then Poloniex in 2016 started to
add the USDT across for against

822
00:53:39,358 --> 00:53:40,458
every single trading pair.

823
00:53:40,488 --> 00:53:42,948
There was the start of the ICO boom.

824
00:53:44,128 --> 00:53:51,648
2017 was the peak of the ICO boom and,
USDT reached 1 billion in market cap.

825
00:53:52,868 --> 00:53:54,878
Fast forward in 2020,

826
00:53:57,228 --> 00:54:02,558
we had around 10 billion in market
cap, and then the bull run started,

827
00:54:02,558 --> 00:54:06,488
but also another important thing
started, that was the pandemic.

828
00:54:06,898 --> 00:54:11,958
So the pandemic had a huge effect on many
economies around the world, in all the

829
00:54:11,958 --> 00:54:15,378
economies around the world, but especially
in emerging markets, developing countries.

830
00:54:15,793 --> 00:54:18,673
Basically pandemic also
killed entire economies.

831
00:54:19,333 --> 00:54:25,393
And so as a Bitcoin you would think, oh,
all these people that are in countries

832
00:54:25,393 --> 00:54:30,103
like Argentina and and Venezuela and
Turkey and so on, they should use Bitcoin

833
00:54:30,463 --> 00:54:36,013
and they should, they should, only use
Bitcoin because everything else is cheap.

834
00:54:36,583 --> 00:54:42,043
So that is pretty much, the approach that
we have as Bitcoiners that, I believe in.

835
00:54:42,453 --> 00:54:43,593
But the problem is that.

836
00:54:44,423 --> 00:54:48,803
Not everyone is ready, so not everyone
has our time to understand Bitcoin.

837
00:54:49,373 --> 00:54:53,693
Not everyone has yet the full skill
set to understand Bitcoin at this

838
00:54:53,703 --> 00:54:55,403
stage, at this moment in time.

839
00:54:56,503 --> 00:55:00,633
we as Bitcoiners didn't build the best
user experience in the world, right?

840
00:55:00,633 --> 00:55:04,183
So one of the best wallets
for Bitcoin is still Electrum.

841
00:55:04,563 --> 00:55:12,493
That, is not necessarily nice
and well done for and simple to

842
00:55:12,493 --> 00:55:15,793
be used for, a 70 year old lady.

843
00:55:16,538 --> 00:55:20,648
so we need to do a better job as
Bitcoiners to build better user

844
00:55:20,648 --> 00:55:24,848
experiences we want Bitcoin to
be more used around the world.

845
00:55:25,078 --> 00:55:30,908
At the same time, 99 percent of the
population knows, especially the ones

846
00:55:30,908 --> 00:55:37,088
that are living in high inflation
areas, knows that there is the dollar

847
00:55:37,118 --> 00:55:41,688
that is usually Much better currency
than what they hold in their hands.

848
00:55:43,538 --> 00:55:46,238
the US dollar is not,
definitely not perfect.

849
00:55:46,238 --> 00:55:48,358
It's not the perfect fiat currency.

850
00:55:49,228 --> 00:55:53,348
but it's like the tale of the two friends
running away from the lion, right?

851
00:55:54,038 --> 00:55:59,188
you have, one friend tells to the
other, Oh, the lion is gonna kill us.

852
00:55:59,218 --> 00:56:01,328
We have to run really fast.

853
00:56:01,713 --> 00:56:05,793
And one of the two friends says
to the other, I just have to

854
00:56:05,793 --> 00:56:07,383
run faster than you, right?

855
00:56:07,383 --> 00:56:12,693
So the US dollar is the friend that is
running faster, in a sense that is the

856
00:56:12,693 --> 00:56:14,593
one that is likely better than the others.

857
00:56:15,023 --> 00:56:20,993
And so being better than the others
is creating a sort of safety feeling

858
00:56:21,523 --> 00:56:25,023
among 5 billion people in the world
that live in high inflation countries.

859
00:56:25,813 --> 00:56:31,273
And for those people that, they don't
have yet the time, they didn't have

860
00:56:31,273 --> 00:56:35,273
the time, they didn't have the luck
also, maybe, to understand Bitcoin,

861
00:56:36,293 --> 00:56:39,553
they are, in fact, using USDT.

862
00:56:40,303 --> 00:56:47,693
they had, If you live in Argentina,
peso lost 98% against the US

863
00:56:47,693 --> 00:56:49,463
dollar in the last five years.

864
00:56:49,703 --> 00:56:53,303
The Turkish L lost 80% against the
US dollar in, the last five years.

865
00:56:53,303 --> 00:56:57,413
So of course, Bitcoin would be better
than the US dollar, but even already,

866
00:56:57,413 --> 00:57:01,343
if you hold the dollar, you are the
king of a hill of the hill there, right?

867
00:57:01,343 --> 00:57:06,503
So because it's, you are able to preserve
your wealth much, better than almost

868
00:57:06,503 --> 00:57:08,243
anyone else in, in, in the region.

869
00:57:09,863 --> 00:57:16,753
I think, the way I see it is that,
USDT is offering a temporary solution

870
00:57:16,753 --> 00:57:21,003
and is providing a service, a very
good service to people that don't have

871
00:57:21,273 --> 00:57:24,893
alternatives and good alternatives and
they are very, familiar with the U.

872
00:57:24,893 --> 00:57:25,043
S.

873
00:57:25,043 --> 00:57:25,903
dollar already.

874
00:57:26,865 --> 00:57:33,014
so eventually, the hyperbitcoinization,
I don't, I think it will happen.

875
00:57:33,034 --> 00:57:35,274
There is, there is no way it won't happen.

876
00:57:35,274 --> 00:57:39,004
It's hard to pinpoint on a
time when, that will happen.

877
00:57:39,004 --> 00:57:41,044
But it's all about the turning point.

878
00:57:41,604 --> 00:57:47,234
What the economy will look like in the
next, 10, 20 years and what trigger

879
00:57:47,264 --> 00:57:52,634
point there will be for fiat currencies
to blow up and become irrelevant.

880
00:57:54,319 --> 00:57:56,599
the way I see it is that
it's likely that the U.

881
00:57:56,599 --> 00:57:56,739
S.

882
00:57:56,739 --> 00:58:02,113
dollar will stay around for a while, and
people might still want to use, the U.

883
00:58:02,113 --> 00:58:02,253
S.

884
00:58:02,253 --> 00:58:07,093
dollar for, as a checking account, but
they, should UBU start to use, the,

885
00:58:07,093 --> 00:58:11,683
Bitcoin as their savings account, in the
checking account, you want to, even today,

886
00:58:12,413 --> 00:58:17,083
you, are happy to not make interest,
on the checking account, It's something

887
00:58:17,083 --> 00:58:21,523
that you use for payments, it's something
that you are okay to detach from it

888
00:58:21,523 --> 00:58:25,483
from your checking account because it's
the money that you are ready to spend.

889
00:58:26,063 --> 00:58:28,613
The savings account is the
thing that we should fight for.

890
00:58:28,613 --> 00:58:33,263
This thing is the thing that matter
the most, and, it's, it's the thing

891
00:58:33,263 --> 00:58:35,453
that will is protecting people wealth.

892
00:58:35,453 --> 00:58:36,683
And so in the long term.

893
00:58:37,023 --> 00:58:42,363
And in the medium term, we should push
for this savings account to be Bitcoin.

894
00:58:43,098 --> 00:58:47,028
also with Tether, we are heavily investing
in companies, in Bitcoin companies.

895
00:58:48,088 --> 00:58:49,268
we support the Blockstream.

896
00:58:49,278 --> 00:58:55,118
We supported so many in the space
that are, we, are supporting RGB.

897
00:58:55,148 --> 00:59:00,218
That is a protocol that is
building, assets on top of,

898
00:59:01,328 --> 00:59:02,578
like network, style channels.

899
00:59:02,578 --> 00:59:02,913
Thank you for listening.

900
00:59:03,359 --> 00:59:04,779
and we buy Bitcoin ourselves.

901
00:59:04,779 --> 00:59:06,299
We do a lot of Bitcoin mining.

902
00:59:06,299 --> 00:59:11,239
We develop, I think, the best and most
sophisticated Bitcoin mining software, by

903
00:59:11,239 --> 00:59:13,419
the way, based on hole punch technology.

904
00:59:13,419 --> 00:59:16,759
It's like IoT for Bitcoiners
and Bitcoin mining.

905
00:59:17,009 --> 00:59:18,059
It's very cool.

906
00:59:20,926 --> 00:59:27,646
I, think that, definitely, we are
relying on the dollar and, and, the,

907
00:59:27,686 --> 00:59:32,526
definitely in a way you could see that,
you could say that USDT is helping the

908
00:59:32,526 --> 00:59:39,651
dollar, expansion, but the same way I
don't think Dollar and Bitcoin aren't

909
00:59:39,651 --> 00:59:41,421
necessarily opposed to one or the other.

910
00:59:41,961 --> 00:59:44,631
I think that Bitcoin has its own path.

911
00:59:45,021 --> 00:59:49,211
And no matter what happens,
there is no way to slow it down.

912
00:59:49,451 --> 00:59:53,151
I think, it's going to
be inevitable success.

913
00:59:53,861 --> 00:59:57,741
It's going to be inevitable that
it will become global internet

914
00:59:57,771 --> 00:59:59,971
money and global words money.

915
01:00:00,513 --> 01:00:05,283
No country will trust to each other
with, with each other currencies

916
01:00:05,703 --> 01:00:11,043
for, for a longer time, and so
the only viable solution is a

917
01:00:11,043 --> 01:00:12,503
currency that is governed by math.

918
01:00:12,533 --> 01:00:15,883
That is the only objective way, objective
thing that we have in the universe.

919
01:00:18,468 --> 01:00:21,298
that's my train of thoughts
on, Tether and Bitcoin.

920
01:00:21,961 --> 01:00:22,601
Oh, thank you.

921
01:00:22,631 --> 01:00:24,341
Thank you for that explanation.

922
01:00:24,341 --> 01:00:25,661
It explains a lot of things.

923
01:00:26,126 --> 01:00:30,996
To me, it sounds a bit like you're
a lubrication company, like selling

924
01:00:30,996 --> 01:00:36,346
lubrication for the transition between
the rape of the dollar to the love

925
01:00:36,356 --> 01:00:41,356
fest of the hyperbitcoinized world, to
make the transition a little smoother.

926
01:00:41,931 --> 01:00:42,231
If,

927
01:00:42,596 --> 01:00:48,056
we are more than, at Tether we have also
this educational arm and, believe it or

928
01:00:48,056 --> 01:00:51,836
not, our, the majority of the creation
we do is actually on Bitcoin, right?

929
01:00:51,836 --> 01:00:57,506
So we have the, we are supporting the Plan
B network led by the great Giacomo Zucco.

930
01:00:58,456 --> 01:01:03,826
we try our best to go around and,
The unfortunate thing is that USDT,

931
01:01:04,846 --> 01:01:10,126
we, didn't have a marketing team
up to, 2022 with u with Tether.

932
01:01:10,546 --> 01:01:13,786
So basically, I wish I could say
that success of Tether is because

933
01:01:13,786 --> 01:01:15,886
we were super intelligent and great.

934
01:01:16,516 --> 01:01:21,256
but actually the success of Tether,
unfortunately is a symptom of the

935
01:01:21,256 --> 01:01:25,546
success of, of, national economies.

936
01:01:26,116 --> 01:01:27,886
And it's sad if you think about it, right?

937
01:01:27,886 --> 01:01:31,866
So the success of your main product U
as it is, They're actually proportional

938
01:01:31,866 --> 01:01:35,506
to the FACAP of many central banks.

939
01:01:36,136 --> 01:01:39,136
And, but it is what it is, right?

940
01:01:39,136 --> 01:01:46,066
So we need to do what we do at, really, at
DataRace, creating all these educational

941
01:01:46,106 --> 01:01:51,176
contents to try to explain that, sure,
we are providing a tool for today, but,

942
01:01:52,186 --> 01:01:56,136
For tomorrow you probably need, you
need to understand that you have other

943
01:01:56,136 --> 01:02:01,266
options, you need to understand Bitcoin,
because as we said for, Keith, right?

944
01:02:01,266 --> 01:02:05,976
So the moment when you will need
the most Bitcoin, it has to be

945
01:02:05,976 --> 01:02:09,556
available, you need to understand
it, so that is a true option for you.

946
01:02:09,586 --> 01:02:10,096
So that's, the key.

947
01:02:10,396 --> 01:02:12,856
The way we are, we, see bitcoin education.

948
01:02:13,858 --> 01:02:22,226
No, and, I, something like Tether
would have, emerged, either way, and

949
01:02:22,236 --> 01:02:27,321
it's very comforting to know that
it's run by Bitcoiners and not by

950
01:02:27,321 --> 01:02:29,161
a central bank itself or something.

951
01:02:30,001 --> 01:02:33,361
yeah, and the Plan B Network,
I was a guest lecturer there

952
01:02:33,361 --> 01:02:35,391
in Logano and it was fantastic.

953
01:02:35,391 --> 01:02:38,611
I love what you're doing there
with the educational hub.

954
01:02:38,991 --> 01:02:42,551
And we even got Giacomo to write
the foreword to our new book here

955
01:02:42,721 --> 01:02:44,311
that you can see here behind Luke.

956
01:02:46,036 --> 01:02:46,396
and Fine World.

957
01:02:47,011 --> 01:02:48,241
Always say the title, Knut.

958
01:02:48,241 --> 01:02:48,991
Always say the title.

959
01:02:49,121 --> 01:02:50,671
Bitcoin, the inverse of Clown World.

960
01:02:50,671 --> 01:02:56,101
It's, you, if, you're good at maths and
emojis, you might be able to figure out

961
01:02:56,101 --> 01:03:00,991
the title from the cover, but it's one
divided by Clown World anyway, which is

962
01:03:01,081 --> 01:03:06,821
on the opposite side of the everything
divided by 21 million equation, So

963
01:03:06,881 --> 01:03:12,081
anyway, looking forward to, yeah, to
seeing you in Lugano and giving you

964
01:03:12,081 --> 01:03:13,961
both a copy of the book, of course.

965
01:03:14,081 --> 01:03:18,720
Oh, with pleasure, with great
pleasure, with a nice, education.

966
01:03:18,720 --> 01:03:19,980
How you call it like the,

967
01:03:21,234 --> 01:03:21,984
Absolutely.

968
01:03:22,094 --> 01:03:25,084
Yeah, you'll get signed copies.

969
01:03:25,124 --> 01:03:25,744
Absolutely.

970
01:03:25,844 --> 01:03:26,084
Yep.

971
01:03:26,084 --> 01:03:26,836
100%.

972
01:03:26,836 --> 01:03:32,894
And we have to wind things down, but
I'll just say as well, yeah, absolutely

973
01:03:32,894 --> 01:03:35,224
looking forward to Lugano Plan B Forum.

974
01:03:35,654 --> 01:03:37,834
Always a highlight of the year.

975
01:03:37,834 --> 01:03:39,294
It was my first time last year.

976
01:03:39,724 --> 01:03:40,914
I absolutely loved it.

977
01:03:42,214 --> 01:03:44,394
can't wait to attend this year.

978
01:03:44,434 --> 01:03:44,664
Yeah.

979
01:03:45,826 --> 01:03:48,126
anything you want to say about
that, by the way, just, since we're

980
01:03:48,126 --> 01:03:49,096
here, we've got a few minutes left.

981
01:03:49,561 --> 01:03:53,341
so it's the 25th, 2020
6th of October, 2024.

982
01:03:53,551 --> 01:03:54,151
this year,

983
01:03:56,921 --> 01:04:00,101
it's a Bitcoin event that
is not made to make money.

984
01:04:00,751 --> 01:04:04,181
So the problem with, with events is that.

985
01:04:05,171 --> 01:04:12,191
You have to find sponsors, and usually,
sponsor might not be well aligned with

986
01:04:12,191 --> 01:04:14,471
the message you want to give, right?

987
01:04:16,691 --> 01:04:22,321
I think Tether is lucky enough, to
not have to make money on the event.

988
01:04:23,231 --> 01:04:25,511
I want to have, good, guests.

989
01:04:26,171 --> 01:04:27,861
I want to have great speakers.

990
01:04:28,316 --> 01:04:29,766
I want to have the messaging.

991
01:04:29,786 --> 01:04:33,646
That is not only about Bitcoin, it's
about, freedom of speech as well.

992
01:04:33,646 --> 01:04:37,136
We had the family of Assange for
the last few years, and I think

993
01:04:37,136 --> 01:04:38,626
that they will come also this year.

994
01:04:38,626 --> 01:04:41,506
By the way, we are going
to also launch an event.

995
01:04:41,546 --> 01:04:45,906
I'm going to be probably killed by the By
our marketing team, I'm not sure if they

996
01:04:45,906 --> 01:04:50,906
announced it, but we are going to have
another Plan B event also in El Salvador

997
01:04:50,906 --> 01:04:56,916
next year, so we're trying to create this
network of cities and countries that have

998
01:04:56,936 --> 01:05:02,311
things in common and, invite people that
want to share knowledge around the world.

999
01:05:02,761 --> 01:05:07,451
And, yeah, and of course we,
are very proud of the good

1000
01:05:07,451 --> 01:05:09,401
food that we, serve in Lugano.

1001
01:05:09,711 --> 01:05:13,481
So that is another thing that, not
all the bands can say the same thing.

1002
01:05:14,107 --> 01:05:15,087
No, it's fantastic.

1003
01:05:15,087 --> 01:05:20,437
And we happened to bump into the Assange
family at the cocktail bar in, in, in

1004
01:05:20,437 --> 01:05:25,597
a fancy hotel and, had a, had a very
interesting conversation with them there.

1005
01:05:25,597 --> 01:05:27,087
So if you're listening.

1006
01:05:27,452 --> 01:05:30,642
Anyone from the Assange family
is welcome on the show any time.

1007
01:05:31,332 --> 01:05:36,462
So yeah, no looking forward to, to that
event for sure, we had a great time.

1008
01:05:37,072 --> 01:05:39,862
And I think we're even playing
this year, aren't we, Luke?

1009
01:05:40,917 --> 01:05:41,067
You're

1010
01:05:41,432 --> 01:05:45,132
yeah, the Satoshi, I understand it,
the Satoshi Rakamoto is the, is in the

1011
01:05:45,132 --> 01:05:51,042
event there, yeah, we, we, played, in,
back in Prague, it was my first, time,

1012
01:05:51,042 --> 01:05:53,052
but Knut is a regular at the Rakamotos.

1013
01:05:53,307 --> 01:05:54,277
What, what you're playing?

1014
01:05:54,337 --> 01:05:55,307
Which, which songs?

1015
01:05:55,382 --> 01:05:55,682
too.

1016
01:05:55,823 --> 01:05:59,023
Oh, anything and everything,
what did we do in Prague?

1017
01:05:59,023 --> 01:05:59,693
We did some,

1018
01:06:00,093 --> 01:06:01,373
paranoid and,

1019
01:06:02,533 --> 01:06:02,773
Can I

1020
01:06:02,793 --> 01:06:03,873
commission a song?

1021
01:06:04,172 --> 01:06:06,372
Yeah, sure, What song
would you like to hear?

1022
01:06:08,322 --> 01:06:10,382
I have two that I would suggest.

1023
01:06:11,022 --> 01:06:12,832
One is Nothing Else Matters.

1024
01:06:13,165 --> 01:06:13,675
Alright.

1025
01:06:13,805 --> 01:06:18,595
So I think that, that is, that
also is very inspiring, right?

1026
01:06:20,625 --> 01:06:21,735
Bitcoin, for sure.

1027
01:06:22,508 --> 01:06:23,478
Nothing Else Matters.

1028
01:06:24,078 --> 01:06:25,878
it's perfectly aligned with Bitcoin.

1029
01:06:26,448 --> 01:06:29,118
And, the other one is Sad But True.

1030
01:06:29,678 --> 01:06:30,758
I'm a big Metallica fan,

1031
01:06:30,898 --> 01:06:31,938
Oh, that would be fun.

1032
01:06:32,168 --> 01:06:32,978
That would be fun.

1033
01:06:33,048 --> 01:06:33,438
Yeah.

1034
01:06:33,768 --> 01:06:36,098
We'll squeeze in some Metallica
there, won't we, Luke?

1035
01:06:36,973 --> 01:06:39,493
we'll 100% have those songs ready to go.

1036
01:06:39,763 --> 01:06:40,453
I, guarantee you that.

1037
01:06:41,604 --> 01:06:45,988
We also have, there's also a big peer
to peer track at the conference, not so

1038
01:06:45,988 --> 01:06:49,968
much music, but, but yeah, that's peer to

1039
01:06:50,138 --> 01:06:51,038
looking forward to that.

1040
01:06:51,448 --> 01:06:56,798
Hey, we have to wind things down here
because, yeah, we're, almost, out of time.

1041
01:06:56,798 --> 01:06:58,658
So I'll just hand this, back to you both.

1042
01:06:58,698 --> 01:07:04,418
Is there anything else you'd like to,
mention about, say, the, your plans

1043
01:07:04,418 --> 01:07:09,378
in the upcoming couple of years, in,
key, toll, punch, anything like that?

1044
01:07:10,091 --> 01:07:13,771
only that we're, like I said, we're
integrating really hard right now,

1045
01:07:13,771 --> 01:07:17,801
and it's a really fun time to, to
both join the company because, we're

1046
01:07:17,801 --> 01:07:21,361
small and efficient and, We get to
work with Tether, which has a lot

1047
01:07:21,361 --> 01:07:25,361
of benefits and it's getting really
fast, so definitely check that out.

1048
01:07:25,891 --> 01:07:29,001
And it's also a really fun time
to join Keith in our public rooms.

1049
01:07:29,121 --> 01:07:33,131
There's a lot of very personal,
in a good way, intense chats where

1050
01:07:33,131 --> 01:07:34,421
you get to be part of the loop.

1051
01:07:35,441 --> 01:07:38,491
I love to be part of those early
communities and I would suggest

1052
01:07:38,491 --> 01:07:41,081
everybody to check that out and
go to the website and try it out.

1053
01:07:42,205 --> 01:07:43,605
we will certainly do that.

1054
01:07:44,065 --> 01:07:44,445
yes.

1055
01:07:44,845 --> 01:07:45,905
Yeah, I couldn't agree more.

1056
01:07:46,175 --> 01:07:51,275
So go check out Keith and Holepunch
and the Plan B forum in Lugano,

1057
01:07:51,712 --> 01:07:55,440
And also go to the Bitcoin
Infinity store and check out

1058
01:07:55,440 --> 01:07:56,860
that and what you can find there.

1059
01:07:56,935 --> 01:07:57,965
You could visit tether.

1060
01:07:57,965 --> 01:08:04,215
io, that is, the website where we are
trying to explain what we have in our

1061
01:08:04,215 --> 01:08:13,575
minds between, finance, bitcoin mining,
energy production, AI, communications,

1062
01:08:14,495 --> 01:08:16,435
brain chips and stuff, right?

1063
01:08:17,005 --> 01:08:18,705
I think it's more exciting.

1064
01:08:19,970 --> 01:08:21,250
Just those things, that's all.

1065
01:08:21,788 --> 01:08:27,198
Yeah, we are probably, we, I don't
know, we can piss off more than this.

1066
01:08:27,198 --> 01:08:27,418
Thanks.

1067
01:08:29,119 --> 01:08:30,086
No, it's just perfect.

1068
01:08:30,146 --> 01:08:30,916
It's just perfect.

1069
01:08:31,516 --> 01:08:34,026
and is on that note, is there
anywhere else specific you'd

1070
01:08:34,026 --> 01:08:35,236
like to direct our listeners?

1071
01:08:36,158 --> 01:08:39,888
just follow the social channels and
give us feedback on kit all the time

1072
01:08:39,888 --> 01:08:47,258
because it's, these technologies, needs
everyone's help to be nailed them.

1073
01:08:47,688 --> 01:08:48,858
We love technical feedback.

1074
01:08:48,858 --> 01:08:49,878
We love UX feedback.

1075
01:08:49,878 --> 01:08:50,818
We love all the feedback.

1076
01:08:50,918 --> 01:08:54,318
We're trying to make something that works
for the masses, so anything is good.

1077
01:08:54,750 --> 01:08:55,260
Fantastic.

1078
01:08:55,260 --> 01:08:56,290
So that's, all at Keet.

1079
01:08:56,340 --> 01:08:56,830
io.

1080
01:08:56,830 --> 01:08:57,500
Is that correct?

1081
01:08:57,720 --> 01:08:58,100
For Keet?

1082
01:08:58,715 --> 01:08:58,855
Key.

1083
01:08:58,855 --> 01:08:59,725
io and pairs.

1084
01:08:59,905 --> 01:09:00,755
com for our runtime.

1085
01:09:01,508 --> 01:09:03,748
That's the only links, and then
there's no links after that.

1086
01:09:03,748 --> 01:09:04,458
It's all peer to peer.

1087
01:09:04,713 --> 01:09:05,353
Wonderful.

1088
01:09:05,353 --> 01:09:08,713
And you're also still on the legacy
social media platforms, right?

1089
01:09:09,103 --> 01:09:09,953
Twitter at minimum?

1090
01:09:11,208 --> 01:09:11,488
Yeah.

1091
01:09:11,613 --> 01:09:15,123
we'll make sure to include links
to your handles so people can

1092
01:09:15,123 --> 01:09:16,173
find you there if they would like.

1093
01:09:16,738 --> 01:09:20,098
So Paolo, Mathias, thank you
very much for joining us.

1094
01:09:20,268 --> 01:09:22,148
This has been the Bitcoin Infinity Show.