FFS072 - Niko Laamanen

[00:00:00]

[00:00:00] Intro - Welcoming Niko

Niko: the idea, is to bring, Bitcoin and libertarian ideas.

In a more palatable form to so called normies, we read all those Bitcoin books. And some of us read those Austrian economics books, they're pretty dense, not really a page turner for most people, However, everybody likes good stories.

whether it's movies or TV shows, this time it's a book, but the story is the main point. So compelling human interest, high stakes stories that are somehow related to alternative. Bitcoin related universes, like what might happen if, Bitcoin becomes widely accepted or what might happen if things go wrong and we slip into some kind of a dystopia.

Luke: Welcome back to the Freedom Footprint show, the Bitcoin philosophy show with Knut Svanholm and me, Luke the Pseudo Finn. And today we're joined by Niko Laamanen who is variously known as Omni Finn, the shadowy super publisher and the man who, without which this show would not have been possible.

So Niko, welcome back to the Freedom Footprint show.

Niko: Thank you Luke. Thanks for having me and thanks Knut. Awesome to be here. Looking [00:01:00] forward to it.

Knut: Yeah, I love your outfit, Niko. Uh, the shadow is super publisher outfit.

[00:01:05] 21 Futures and Konsensus Network

Knut: So we were, we're here to talk about the latest Konsensus Network project, which is a very interesting project that I'm super proud to be involved in.

It's called 21 Futures and it's an analogy, uh, uh, uh, uh, analogy? No, uh,

Niko: Anthology.

Knut: Yes. Oh, well, anyway, Bitcoin anthology. It's, uh, 21, stories, about somehow connected to Bitcoin. It's mostly dystopian sci fi, I think. But, uh, tell us a bit more about the project, Niko, and how you came up with it. And, uh...

Uh, how things are going, uh, will it be out for Christmas or all of this stuff?

Niko: Sure. Thanks. Yeah. Uh, first of all, I did not come up with it. All credit goes to Phil, Philip Charter, who is the editor and also, my sort of language tutor helped me a lot [00:02:00] with, with my editing and becoming a better writer. And then of course, uh, during those lessons, I started orange pilling him using Knut's books, uh, 21 million, uh, everything divided by 21 million was the first book I gave him.

He really liked it and, uh, tumbled down. And then one day. he just messaged me and, pitches this idea of a fiction anthology set in Bitcoin-verse And I was like, huh, that sounds really cool. I haven't heard of anything like that. Let's do it like immediately within the first five minutes. And that's how it started.

And, uh, he, he has more experience in, in like short, short story writing. He's a writer himself. I didn't, I didn't know how, how you would go about it. So we started gathering submissions, we put a Twitter call and I believe we got more than 50 submissions, which was a little bit surprising to me. I didn't expect it to be so popular.

some were better, some were worse, but in the end, [00:03:00] after meticulously combing the, the stories with Phil, we landed on, 21 of our favorite stories. And one of them is yours, Knut, of course, and one of them is Ioni's actually, that was a funny thing because he wasn't even supposed to be in the, he declined.

They offer it in the first place, but then he changed his mind and as it so happened that somebody just dropped out, so there was a slot for him. So Joni is also included. So that's pretty cool. But yeah, about the project is, uh, the idea, at least in my opinion, is to bring, Bitcoin and libertarian ideas.

In a more palatable form and more accessible form to so called normies, we all read all those Bitcoin books. And some of the, some of us read those Austrian economics books, they're pretty dense, not really a page turner for most people, what they would consider spending their time on. However, everybody likes good stories.

[00:04:00] Everybody. It doesn't matter who you are. whether it's movies or TV shows, this time it's a book, maybe there will be some, some movies as well made of those, but the story is the main point. So compelling human interest, high stakes stories that are somehow related to alternative. Bitcoin related universes, like what might happen if, you know, Bitcoin becomes widely accepted or what might happen if things go wrong and we slip into some kind of a dystopia.

Like you said, Knut correctly predicted a lot of the stories are about that. But there's also comedy, like, uh, almost like crazy comedy. the variety is staggering. I think we have authors from more than 10 countries really a diverse set of voices and really different styles, reading it and putting it together has been a challenge, but a rewarding one.

And I think people are going to really like it. there's a couple of really, really [00:05:00] good stories that I'm not going to spoil here, but once you get the book, I hope, I hope you're going to like it. And I think people will, but yeah, the, the enthusiasm from the authors has been amazing. everybody's so excited to see this happen and it's a world first, so, so there's always that.

So we'll see how it goes.

Knut: Yeah. And you're too humble here, Niko, because you have a story in the book as well. I know that for a fact and I read it and it's, uh, it's very good. It's better than mine. Definitely.

Niko: thank you for saying that.

Knut: Yeah. I really liked that one. would it be an accurate description to say that this is, if you think of the, uh, the TV series Black Mirror, is this like Orange Mirror

Niko: Yeah, I think that's a good way to put it. Um, I would say that there's maybe. Not all the stories are like Doom and Gloom and like... Dystopian, some of them are, but also some are really optimistic about the future and they paint a different kind of, [00:06:00] uh, more bullish picture maybe, but yeah, I would say it's more on the darker side, perhaps.

Maybe it's because of the uncertainty surrounding Bitcoin and maybe also that Bitcoiners are generally better grounded and realistic and understand that, you know, things can, many things can go wrong when, when human action is involved and incentives. And if some things go wrong, like for example, if we have a nice story about AI becoming sentient and all stuff like that, uh, we don't know.

Uh, but I guess those are the things that are in our mind. And. A lot of the authors, they started the story with just one picture, one, one idea, uh, in, in their mind and build the world around that one concept and one, one picture, uh, yourself included, Knut.

Knut: yeah. I think the, uh, the notion of writing something in a Bitcoin, sort of futuristic Bitcoin setting makes for a pretty boring story since [00:07:00] everything's absolutely awesome in a Bitcoin future. Where, where all, all the.

Niko: Yeah, yeah, sort of like maybe, maybe, maybe my story is a little bit of a negative take on that because in, in my Bitcoin utopia, things have gone. On the surface, it's sort of like nothing has changed, like human nature is, human action is sort of cyclical, like the communism raises its head again and again and again, and people always think it's a good idea when it comes, and then things go to shit.

[00:07:37] Views on the Bitcoin Future

Niko: So, I took a bit of that kind of a take on it, like 200 years from now, yes, a lot of things are in some meters, can be said that it's better, but the core problem of humanity, the violence and oppression, has not gone away. And that's something that, um, Maybe I disagree with some Bitcoiners, myself [00:08:00] personally as well, that Bitcoin might not be the fixer of everything, that humans are the fixers of everything, and it's up to the humans to use the tools.

In a way that is mutually beneficial to all.

Knut: And how much of this is from life experience and how much of it is just basic black metal doom and gloom Finnish heritage?

Niko: I think everything is, is life experience. Like, you know, the school of life, it's sort of a meme that people who didn't go to university, they're just like life schoolers or whatever you call them. But everybody is in the life school, school of life. Like everything is an experience. We gather data, we analyze and process it and make predictions based on past events.

Um, so everything is life, life experience. And while I've read a lot of books, one thing that makes me less bullish about Bitcoin is that Austrian economics books like [00:09:00] Murray Rothbard's books, for example, have been around for decades. And people don't still know any better. You know, a lot of Bitcoiners don't even know the word praxeology, which is staggering to me.

Like, when I read those books, I sort of assumed, uh, that most people are familiar with these topics and then experience. Demonstrated the opposite. So there's a lot of work to do in educating people about this topic. So that's precisely the reason of 21 Futures, because let's be honest, like nobody's going to read a thousand pages of human action.

Nobody, like maybe, maybe us, but, uh, but that's it. And

Knut: Yeah, I read it

Niko: two hours. Well, there you go. And well, me too, but, uh, the first time it was actually man, man, economy and state, which is the better version of human action, in my opinion. But you get my point. Like the attention span is, um, that of a fruit fly nowadays.[00:10:00]

So if you don't have short form content, engaging content, you know, stuff that immediately tickles your fancy, you're going to lose people. And that includes Bitcoiners. Like we're no, no better, we're not immune to, to this, uh, Dopamine hook. So to try, I think we need to try to play within the market. Uh, it is what it is.

I don't like it necessarily. I do like good stories. So there is a way to package these ideas in a more palatable way, I believe. And this is one of them.

Knut: Yes, and that is why we've of course edited this eight hour conversation down to around an hour.

[00:10:45] Konsensus Network Update

Knut: Tell us a bit more about Konsensuses in general, like, um, what, what, what is the, uh, what, what is the plan for Konsensus going forward? What, what projects are on the horizon?

Niko: Well, thanks for asking that. Yeah. [00:11:00] It's been interesting to follow how the Starfish organization organically changes shape all the time and develops. And sometimes the direction may not be completely clear. But for example, right now we are clearly moving towards services service provider rather than straight up publisher because self-publishing is so big.

So people don't really need a publisher like I'm a publisher and I'm, I'm, you know, I don't have any problems saying that because I'm not gonna lose business because of that, because the, the self publishers are still going to need typesetting editing cover design. All of that, none of that goes away, but the publication project itself, it's far away from the traditional publishing model that has been reigning for hundreds of years.

And uh, I think it happened during the last 20, 10 years, maybe due to the internet mostly. And now the tools are so powerful with AI tools, [00:12:00] rewriting tools, editing tools, translation tools. That is, it's rather trivial to write something. Of course, the content. Uh, content creation side is still, uh, still difficult, but in theory, anybody can just up and publish a book.

It's not that difficult. So we offer the services for that as a self publishing package. And I got to say, those packages sell way better than books at the moment.

[00:12:25] AI and Intelligence

Knut: Yeah, I, I expect an explosion in books here now because of AI. Uh, but I heard about an interesting court case the other day where someone was sued for copyright infringement for publishing something that, ChatGPT had spewed out. Do you know anything about that or are there any concerns, copyright concerns with using AI and uh, Like, is that something that we, Konsensus, should be aware of and even afraid of?

Niko: I mean, yeah, I follow [00:13:00] it closely because we do use AI tools in our publications as well. So, uh, it's always interesting to see, of course it's possible that something like that could be outlawed, that you're, you're not allowed to use because the most of the AI models, they are trained on data that is also somewhat copyrighted.

Well, that, does that mean that, uh, for example, if you walk outside and you see the sign of the, the convertible sign of Coca-Cola. And you're inspired by the logo and you draw something similar because you use that as an inspiration. Well, that does not constitute as copyright infringement. And I think AI is much the same.

Of course, if you go to a mid journey prompt or daily and you type like, uh, I want this, uh, black, uh, ball eared. mouse like cartoon figure doing something and then you make a cartoon out of it, then that might, might take you to, uh, closer to what [00:14:00] might be called, uh, you know, a copyright infringement because you're clearly trying to imitate something that was not your idea.

So I think there's going to be a lot of gray area, a lot of different kinds of rulings, but it's just a tool, just like, uh, if you use Grammarly. Um, or any kind of other, uh, AI writing assistant tool they check for plagiarism, for example. So if you copy paste something that is a direct lift. Uh, obviously that's not okay, but if, if you get inspired by that and write something adjacent, that's a new product.

I don't think much of that is going to change.

Knut: Yeah, if you, uh, if you prompt it with a big eared cartoon character, um, uh, then, uh, uh, King Charles will definitely sue you immediately for copyright infringement and using his face. So, uh, but I think this court case was [00:15:00] actually someone who had copy pasted a prompt from chat, or an answer from chat GPT and was sued for that, for the answer that chat GPT, uh, Gabe, and not for something copy pasted from anywhere else on the internet.

So, so that's, that might be a concern going into the future. Anyway, about AI in general, like, uh, I love Aleks Svetsky's term for it. Midwit obsolescence technology, Excellent yeah, it, it, uh, replaces all the jobs done by the. The, um, the middle of the bell curve people, uh, so, uh, but it can never replace original thoughts.

And I think the, problem with the name intelligence is that it's not really intelligent as it, uh, it lacks agency. It cannot feel uneasy [00:16:00] and therefore it can never do anything by its own free will. so, and I think that aspect of intelligence is very underrated. Uh, what are your thoughts on AI in general?

Niko: Yeah. I mean, intelligence is an interesting word. I would define it more like, uh, A novel way, way to analyze and arrange data to make predictions and create outcomes. I think that could be called intelligence. I don't think AI is a terribly terrible term, however, it does lack the ability to create.

Something original, like you said, and that's the key. And that's, why humans can't be at least at this point until, human engineers crack the essence of consciousness, which I don't expect to happen anytime soon, maybe never. So I don't think that can be simulated. So what it will, what it is right now and what I think it continues to [00:17:00] be is an extremely efficient and powerful.

tool to use. It's just like, like Google, but just way better because now you can do art. Like for example, myself, like I'm, I'm able to compete with, uh, with real artists because of AI, because I have creativity. So I can, I can just prompt and then I can take it to Photoshop and I can prompt pieces of the picture like that.

It's amazing to think that that exists right now. And this is year zero, by the way, for AI tools. And we know that they're only going to get better and better. So if you don't use AI right now, it is almost guaranteed that you're going to be left behind no matter what your field is, because you won't be able to compete.

It's the same as adopting Bitcoin, really. Like, it's the superior technology. of course, the same way as Bitcoin, if you just rely on Bitcoin, it's just like, yeah, I'm just going to stack and hold, and everything's going to be fine, and everything's going to be great. We're going to go to Bitcoin standard.

Actually going to [00:18:00] do anything with your Bitcoin. You're just going to hold on to it. It's a similar way that you, you just think that, Oh yeah, I'm just going to throw an idea to ChatGTP and I'm going to copy paste it and call it a blog post. It's going to suck. I promise you. So you still have to do the work.

You still have to do the creative work. You can just do it way, way faster. Right now, but it doesn't discount your own proof of work.

[00:18:23] HODLing vs Using Bitcoins

Knut: Yeah, I think this is an interesting, uh, segue to a subject where we seem to differ slightly. Uh, even though we, uh, so Niko edited the praxeology book with me as almost even co wrote it, I would say, because we, uh, we put a lot of effort into each, each, uh, section there, and there's a section about money never being idle.

So when you save capital and when you When you hodl, as you say, you are not actually not using the bitcoins, but they are providing you with a service at all times. And that service [00:19:00] is mainly the sense of security you get from knowing that you have financial stability so that you can dare to do other stuff.

So what are your thoughts on that, Niko

Niko: Yeah, I mean, I've been triggering people a lot by saying that hodling is nothing, and it only makes sense in the context of spending, which technically is true, at least the second part. Of course, hodling is not nothing. Like you said, it does provide you a service. That's why you do it. You make a trade with yourself to save and not spend.

Time preference thinking. it's a savings technology, so you can save your energy for use later. That's a, that's a clear service. All I'm saying is that eventually, you're going to want to eat. You're going to want to build a house. You're going to want to take a vacation. And at that point. If you're still using fiat and you're not actively trying to move yourself and distance yourself from the destructive system, you're still [00:20:00] kind of like hanging on the green tit of fiat, um, things are going to slow down.

So I'm not saying that everybody needs to be an anarchist right now and, and, you know, stop paying taxes or anything like that. It's not practical. It's, it's, it's just that, the mindset, like it takes much more work for us to put these tools to good use. Like they're still in beta level, you know, the monetary network tools that we have, maybe even alpha level.

And people don't realize that. And it's sometimes a little bit annoying to see that people think that, you know, Bitcoin is a sure thing. We're already one and, and, uh, there's so many problems still that need to be tackled. And all I'm encouraging, I'm encouraging people to think about that, like there's nothing wrong, if you want to go to your, your, uh, nine to five and stack sats on the side, that's definitely better than, than the other alternative of not having Bitcoin at all, but there's.

[00:21:00] You, you should, I think, and I want to progress on the steps of life. So what's the next step? Always thinking about the next step. How am I going to exit this fiat life eventually? Like if you don't put those, things in motion, it's not ever going to happen. Cause I don't believe, and this is probably something we disagree.

I don't believe that fiat as, as an idea or communism as an idea is ever going to go away. Just like I said earlier, the basis of my story is that we go in circles and we just come up with a new name for it and people are going to accept it because that's what people do. They are, uh, authority dependent.

so I think it's up to us to show a better way, like how to build. Sustainably, how to use Bitcoin and AI and other tools and how to wield your freedom, how to claim your freedom, because you always had it, you just gave it away and, uh, how to stop being complacent. And I think we're all [00:22:00] guilty for that.

You know, I'm not trying to shit on anybody here, but yeah, I think there's a lot of work, a lot of work to do. And I think we can do more, and we should do more.

Knut: Well, the way I see it, the two things are not mutually exclusive. I mean, during Bitcoin's adoption phase, which is... Anything up to hyperbitcoinization, basically. It makes sense both to, uh, to huddle and stack and save, but it also makes sense to set an example and show people the way, and, uh, I mean, that's why we're doing this show, and that's why...

We're public bitcoiners or whatever. I think that's, uh, but, but I think there's a point to both behaviors, definitely. And the one does not, uh, exclude necessarily exclude the other. The best thing is, is if you can do both, uh, of course, and the most crucial thing is to, in my mind is to. [00:23:00] Accept Bitcoin for your goods and services, that's when you're true Bitcoin and not when you start paying for stuff in Bitcoin or, when you start saving in Bitcoin, it's when you accept it for your labor or, and your time and your efforts, basically,

Niko: yeah, that's exactly my point. Like, that's why I like to say that saving Bitcoin or stacking or hauling only makes sense in the context of spending it later. So you still do need a way to spend those. I mean, nobody accepts Bitcoin so far, so. Like you said, accepting Bitcoin is, is one for your services, is, uh, obviously the first step that you should take as long as it's possible.

Certainly if you work with Bitcoiners, you know, it's, it's never been a problem of mine.

Knut: okay, here's, uh, this is another, uh, fun point, which I've talked to Max Hillebrand about a lot, and that is the difference between saving and, and hodling because But if you had used the word saving, I would have completely agreed with you that saving makes absolutely no sense if, uh, [00:24:00] if there's not in the context of spending at a later date.

Uh, like just hoarding money for the sake of hoarding money doesn't make any sense if you don't intend to spend it or if you don't intend for your children to spend it or like there's a spend point at some point in the future. But with hodling, that does not necessarily be, have to be the case because you could hodl.

With the intent of just destroying the Bitcoin at some point, I mean, Michael Saylor alluded to that on this show about, you know, that being the most altruistic move there is to just die with your Bitcoins and taking them off market forever. And I wouldn't necessarily call that spending, or maybe that should be considered spending.

I mean, you're, you're sacrificing Bitcoin for the good of the network.

Niko: But here, here's the, here's the prob, here's the problem with that. Like, Bitcoin is never truly spent because that implies that it's no longer available. Bitcoins always [00:25:00] have always existed and they always will continue to exist. So, while I understand that taking money off the market, when you hodl it, that's an active act of, Decreasing the available liquid supply of Bitcoin. Obviously that's a, that has an effect. However, if you die with your Bitcoin, like many people have, or people have lost their keys, I don't consider that as spending. I don't believe that those coins are forever out of, out of use. They can be claimed at a later date.

Like, for example, now there's a, there was this hack on, not really a hack, it was a bug of like really early wallets. And this is just a, just a poor example, but to illustrate, uh, it's the, with the, with the random number generation. So they were able to crack these really old wallets. So I, to me, it's conceivable that.

In the future, we will come up with ways [00:26:00] to claim the unhosted, unhosted wallet, the unused wallet,

Knut: Salvage it, you mean?

Niko: say that when I love, yeah,

exactly. Like, I think in the future, like this kind of like salvaging or treasure hunting will be a thing. Like there, there will be a profession of, actually just.

Repurposing the non upgraded wallets that are vulnerable to a quantum attack or whatever. So for all intents and purposes, if the timeline, time horizon is infinite as it should be, then it's 21 million or a little bit below whatever it is. It's not

16 million and it's not going to be 10 million and it's not going to be one day one Bitcoin.

It's always going to be 21 million always has been and always will be.

Knut: Yes. And, uh, the, it's just that the hash rate was zero before 2009. And, uh, , or , [00:27:00] uh, I mean, uh, uh, the numbers always existed and, and so on and so forth. But I'm gonna devil's advocate the shit outta this one, Nick, if you don't mind. Uh,

Niko: That's what I'm here for.

Knut: I think that's a very dangerous thought because if you can salvage old Bitcoin addresses as you say, that means you can salvage existing ones too, ones that are in use.

Niko: Correct.

Knut: Especially if we've already ossified and there's no more op... Upgrades on the horizon at all. We're not, we never know when we've reached that point, but it's probably sooner than people think that Bitcoin will never change again. And you say they can last forever or for an infinite amount of time, which I would say, is physically impossible since.

We have about 5 billion years to spend them, I think, if I'm not wrong with the numbers here. But I know there is a limit where the sun [00:28:00] will, uh, turn into a red dwarf and then a supernova or whatever and eat the earth. And we can't really move the bitcoins off earth. There's no way to do that. We couldn't take them on a giant spaceship and, uh, Populate a new star system with them.

That doesn't really work. And I don't see that problem going away anytime soon. Uh, then again, it's pretty hard to predict the future for tomorrow.

Luke: Alright, you might have noticed that we've recently partnered with AmberApp. After our episode with Izzy, their CEO, and our close friend, we knew we would have to partner with them in some way, If you haven't seen our episode with Izzy, definitely go check it out, you'll see why it's such a great fit, and honestly, they're following the orange glowing light like Izzy always says, and that's exactly what we try to do here at the Freedom Footprint Show.

The big news about AmberApp is that on Jan 3, 2024, they're going to be launching their version 2. I've seen some of the [00:29:00] screenshots and it looks fantastic. They're going to be including a non custodial on chain wallet, an anonymous lightning wallet, a fiat wallet, And finally, it's going to be an exchange, of course. it's going to be just this super app, They're also going to be launching globally.

Everyone's going to be able to use it. we're really excited about all that. Stay tuned with us and you'll hear all about it. And for now, check out their website, amber. app and the episode with Izzy to find out more.

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[00:30:08] The Hash Horizon - Interplanetary Bitcoin

Knut: Oh, there we go.

Niko: So there's actually,

Knut: All right.

Niko: there's actually a story about intergalactic Bitcoin mining on the book. I had to plug that in,

Knut: Yeah, how does that work though? Because this is the thing, I think a lot about the hash horizon since you couldn't sync your node if you were more than 10 light minutes away from Earth, which means that you could sync a node on Mars, like for three months per year or something, and then Mars is too far away.

So it would only work on Mars for a couple of months. Uh, I mean, custodial Bitcoin and paper Bitcoin works everywhere, but still, uh, there is a hash horizon, and it's fun to think about that and think about, uh. In the context of thinking about a consciousness horizon and the, you know, reality only being where [00:31:00] our, where our memes converge and stuff, and there might be some, some weird shit going on here.

Uh, let's not go too deep with it though. Like, how do you solve the hash horizon problem and taking bitcoins to another planet?

Niko: Well, I think, uh, you're, you're making a crucial assumption here. You're, you're talking, uh, heliocentric. So I mean, let's, uh, think about the universe for a while, like how likely it is that there are other advanced human like intelligent lifeforms. Well, given that if we believe, if we make that assumption that universe is infinite, then it should be infinitely possible and likely.

Now how likely it is that they've come up with the concept of absolute scarcity? And about the development to backtrack a little bit so that it makes sense. I don't think that ossification [00:32:00] in the, in the way that people normally talk about it is ever going to happen with anything. Like when has that happened?

When has something. been set in stone forever and never changed. Like,

Knut: Well, the circle, uh, the definition of a circle is pretty, pretty set in stone, isn't it?

Niko: well, okay. I'll give you that one. Sure. There's, there's some classified things, but let's, uh, let's think about like soft software, like Bitcoin is, um, is a software solution after all that

uses hardware. Yes. And it will, it is going to need upgrades as, as we, uh, venture into the space, as, as we tap into more of the energy, as we approach Cardashia One, like Joni likes to say, Bitcoin is Cardashia One money.

I really love that one. And the Hash Horizon problem is really only a problem from the perspective, if you assume that. Uh, Earth is going to be the center of all humanity forever. I don't

Knut: No, the, [00:33:00] okay, okay, let me clear that up a bit. I, my assumption is that we reach, uh, some type of ossification before we reach the stars. That's the only assumption.

Niko: sure. That's fair.

Knut: okay, there's another assumption here. Like, if the universe is infinite, then there are infinite copies of Bitcoin. Uh, an infinite number of times, like if any type of infinity exists, then everything exists in infinite copies somewhere, like, like, you can't have, you can't just have, there's only one way to define infinity, and that is that everything's infinite, so, but there's another way to look at the universe, if, um, if it's true, what we talked about with Jeff the other week, Consciousness creates reality to a larger extent than we think.

Then what we experience as objective reality might just be where our consciousnesses

collide and [00:34:00] where all conscious beings worldviews sort of merge into objective reality, which would explain why we haven't seen any life on other, anywhere else in the universe, because it's simply too far away for us to sync with. So it doesn't work with the time dimension, which would be the hash horizon of, of life.

And if that is the case, then there is no infinity. It's all subjective. And then there's abs, then there's absolutely a hash, uh, uh, no way of getting a Bitcoin into space.

[00:34:32] Aliencoin

Niko: I think, uh, my point was more like, there's no way that Bitcoin is going to be brought to earth from space

Knut: Oh,

Niko: all I'm saying,

Knut: alien

Niko: you said, infinite amount of, and this is also another story that is also in the, in the book. Yeah. Uh, it's, it's fun to think about this. like let, let's say, let's assume that it's true that, uh, another more advanced species has come up with Bitcoin a [00:35:00] million years ago.

Now, the only, only, only thing

Knut: a longer chain, basically.

Niko: yeah, the only, only thing that is stopping them from coming and reorganizing our chain is that they don't give a shit about doing that. And at what point it does it become intergalactic hash war, or if that kind of a thing might ever exist. I mean, it's possible, although I have to say that, uh, with Bitcoin's, um, uh, proof of work and difficulty adjustment.

And unconfiscatability properties should in the long run result in a more peaceful society. So perhaps, uh, if, if there is an advanced alien race somewhere, maybe they just simply want to leave us alone as, as everybody should be left alone. That's the only right that we are born with.

Luke: And can I, can I, uh, uh, poke a little bit as well if I've, it's been great by the way, I've, [00:36:00] I've, uh, wanted to, um, jump in a couple of times. Um, so, so, so this one, uh, how would some kind of alien race get the resources? to to get more hash rate for our chain, because theirs is going to be different, it's not that SHA 256 is going to be the same algorithm, although I guess we play with infinities, an infinite number of bitcoins that are based on exactly SHA 256 exist, I suppose, but now this is making my brain hurt.

Knut: Well, okay, let me do an even abstracter example here, if you don't mind, Luke. Now I'm doing the thing again, I know. But, uh, let's say for argument's sake, that they have... Uh, the exact same Bitcoin. So an alien comes from, uh, Alpha Centauri or something with, the exact same Bitcoin as we have, except their chain is longer because they figured it out at 2005 or something or whatever the, the [00:37:00] year was on that planet.

Uh, but point is they have a longer chain still. If there are 10 minute block intervals, uh, they couldn't sync anything outside of their planet. so, so they can't even get to outside of their star system with, without, uh, and take their bitcoins with them. It doesn't work. Uh, because, because of, because of differences in time and like, how the fuck would you sync a chain?

how far away is Alpha Centauri again? Like 4. 3 light years. So how would you sync if you had block times of 4. 3 years? Like, that looks nothing like our chain at all. Okay, just to open that box.

Niko: Yeah, so I think all of these like piercing hash horizon must imply faster than light, faster than light. Data transmission capability, some kind of a quantum wormhole, [00:38:00] or whatever it might look like, we don't know yet. What I do know, or I think, is that it's a matter of time before that is, in fact, invented.

Just like everything else, like, people always think that nothing, something is permanent, and it will never change, and we will never come up with a better way. And we do. Eventually. So, yeah, all of these scenarios, they obviously imply that the, the, the, the race, the alien race or the human race must come up with, uh, well, first reach Kardasher 1 to be able to harness all the planet, all the power available in the planet, and we're not even close to that, like not even Scratching the surface there.

Once that happens, then you move to Cardochev 2, which is harnessing the, the whole, um, uh, solar system. And once you're there, you kind of like already have to have faster than light, transmit, transmission capability. So then Hash Horizon doesn't matter [00:39:00] anymore because you can, in fact, synchronize your blocks through a wormhole to, you know, billions of light years, if that should be possible.

Luke: Okay, well, I think this Hash Horizon stuff is interesting, interesting, but can we... Can it still fix the money before we get to hash horizon issues? Maybe that's the, maybe that's the thing.

Niko: Yeah, I mean, I'm contradicting myself because, you know, I keep telling people we should focus on fixing, uh, fixing the human problems and human incentive models here on earth. Uh, but, uh, yeah, it's sometimes.

It's just fun to think about. It is boring. It is very, very boring and safe. And, uh, it's much, much more fun to think about, uh, alien races, uh,

co opting our chain.

[00:39:47] Light Speed and Time

Knut: Here's the thing though, with light speed, like light speed is connected to time very much. So if you travel in light speed, theoretically time stands still. So, so what you're talking about is some sort [00:40:00] of quantum entanglement, uh, data transfer so that you could interact with a particle that was very, very far away from you.

And I guess with binary that is, um, at least theoretically possible in some, some way, shape, or form in the future, maybe. This is very, very far fetched, but, but anyway, so let's say for argument's sake that you can do that, that would, uh, what you could send then to other, would that imply sending some type of intergalactic ordinal to, uh, form a JPEG monkey on another, in another star system.

Like, is that how that will work? Yeah, people are, people are going to look back at this conversation in a hundred years and think that we're very, very clever, aren't they?

Niko: Of course, that's the hope. Yeah. I mean. It will most likely be used for, I mean, it's already been used [00:41:00] to, for inscribing messages in, like Satoshi started it. I mean, it's, it's a core property of, of the Bitcoin chain that you can immortalize words,

which is what Bitcoin is. So I think that's a, that's a use case, definitely.

let's, let's say that we have a colony in Mars or somewhere even further, and we have that wormhole technology. That introduces another interesting, uh, problem, because if something would go wrong with that, uh, wormhole converter, then you would have, uh, have the chain split in two. It would have the minority chain on the, on the colony and the majority chain on Earth.

So that's going to be interesting if, if the wormhole goes back online, because then everything that happened in the smaller chain is going to get reorganized.

Knut: And quantum particles exist in both states at once. So you have Schrodinger's wormhole here, uh, and a whole bunch of chains existing at the same time, which might be the case at the moment as [00:42:00] well, by the way,

Niko: Exactly. That's, that's the point. That's the point. Like the only question is why, why wouldn't? Somebody attacks somebody else's chain. And I think the reason is incentives, which is what

Bitcoin does help with greatly.

[00:42:16] Ordinals and Arbitrary Data

Knut: yeah, speaking, speaking about this ordinal scrap and, uh, the, uh, being able to store arbitrary data on the, on the time chain, like I've been trying to come up with an easy way to explain what, what my thoughts are around this thing. And it's, it's pretty hard. the thing is that any type of. Arbitrary data that you store on, on the chain, the relevance of that data is entirely subjective as everything else, like the, the value of, of that arbitrary data is, is, you know, in the eye of the beholder as everything else, the point is though that, The token representing the value, I mean the [00:43:00] satoshi, will, since that has a function as the damn near perfect money, over time, the satoshi itself will have a higher marginal utility than any other type of information you can put on the chain.

I think that's the way, uh, to, to explain that to people that you can't out scarcity bitcoin . Like you can't out scarce Bitcoin. You can't, you can't make, even if, even if you mint a new token up on, on top of Bitcoin that you promised to issue only this or that many, coins in. Like, I mean, you could do that over and over and over again.

So you run into the same problem as with the chitcoins. the native token will always be the, the most valuable one, because of the very nature of, um, how we value things or diminish it. This, it's basically. Uh, The [00:44:00] Law of Diminishing Marginal Utility. I'm having a hard time expressing this. Can you tell this in a simpler way, Niko, do you think?

Niko: Well, I'll give it a shot. I have no promises though, but like you said earlier, everything's subjective and we know this, uh, all the value is, uh, based off the. Marginal utilitarian perceived hierarchy of wants, let's say that. So everything is infinitely subjective. And if we subscribe, as I do, to the model that consciousness creates reality and not vice versa.

By the way, uh, a book recommendation just came to me. Uh, the Biocentrism by Robert Lanza, highly recommended on, on the topic. Really, really good one. Uh, good takes on how consciousness creates reality. Now, if, if, if that is true, that, that still doesn't take away the absolute absoluteness of scarcity, like you can improve on a technology [00:45:00] and software, but you can't improve on absolute.

Scarcity, because that's why it's absolute. You can probably, maybe, destroy absolute scarcity with technology, with a better technology that's conceivable. But it's highly unlikely, because it's much more likely that the software will continue to develop with times and enforce the rules that make absolute scarcity possible.

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[00:47:23] More 21 Futures Stories

Luke: maybe to, to bring this, uh, back in, uh, a little bit. Do you have, uh. Uh, a preview of any of the other stories, uh, got a lot of this sci fi stuff, Hash Horizon, interesting things, anything else you want to highlight?

Niko: let me look at my notes here.

There's a really interesting story about cryo freezing. I think you're going to enjoy that one. It's about how a man freezes themselves at the height of their wealth. And before they die, they want to take their Bitcoin with them and wake up later. But the [00:48:00] waking up doesn't go quite as planned. Wakes up into a nightmare dystopia.

I'm not going to spoil what kind of that is, but that's, that's a really interesting story. there's, uh, Joni's story is pretty, pretty interesting take. It's, it's, uh, sort of like this, uh, medieval fantasy setting, uh, that, that is talking about, uh, psychedelic awakening of humankind, but set in a medieval fantasy setting.

Really nice story.

Luke: Sounds like

Yoni.

Niko: Yeah, Jonny is a fantastic, uh, fiction writer, by the way, I can tell.

Knut: Uh, I, I struggle with the writing for, um, fiction. I just can't do that. It's just not what I do. But at least I learned something and we, we managed to salvage the story into something decent in the end. And anyway, I think,

Niko: It's, it's, it's not bad. You're being too hard on yourself and, and, uh, yeah, I think, uh,[00:49:00] But yeah, I think you are, you are better with nonfiction for sure. Uh, what else do we got? We got a farce, like I mentioned, a comedy that is, um, borderlining like a crazy comedy from the, from the 90s. And uh, we have, uh, AI sentient, getting sentient type of story.

That's always fun. I enjoy those. Oh, have you guys seen the movie Her, by the way? It's a pretty old one, 2013, I believe.

Knut: yeah, with Shakin Phoenix, right? I haven't seen, haven't seen it, unfortunately.

Niko: you gotta, you gotta watch

Knut: I think played, played the AI,

Niko: Yes.

Knut: but I haven't seen it.

Niko: And, uh, it's made in 2013. So it's, it's quite accurate representation of what I think is going to maybe possibly happen, but

Knut: What, guys? Guys falling in love with bots? That's happening every

Niko: mean, that's already, I mean, that's already, that part is already happening. Yeah. Yeah. We, we have some historical alternative historical takes,[00:50:00] um, rewriting the history or, or reinterpreting the history in a, in a future light.

We have some crime detective stories, uh, we have some horror, some, some mystery, and then we have some, uh, feel good, orange pilling, uh, hodling stories, of course, a pretty, uh, pretty diverse mix, I would say.

Knut: Yeah, you showed us a manuscript before. You have that there? I mean, for those of you listening, this is a pile of papers here. It says 21 futures, and this is the first manuscript, I guess.

Niko: Yeah,

it's the first one in print.

Knut: yeah, and the pictures aren't in there, I guess.

Niko: The pictures are here, but of course they look like shit, um, because I just used my laser, laserjet. Let me

Knut: All right.

Niko: if I can, well, here's the. This is one of the

Knut: Oh, yeah, yeah. Yeah, yeah. Nice.

Niko: I can show one of my favorite stories, The [00:51:00] Bitterfly, the detective story. Really nice.

Knut: Uh huh.

Niko: then

of course, Mr. Knut Svanholm's story.

Worked really hard on this art.

I'm really happy with that.

Knut: Yeah. Yeah. That looks very much like what I envisioned in my head. So, uh, yeah. Good job.

[00:51:18] Bitcoinbook.shop

Luke: Well, I think we've done a nice showcase for the 21 futures, so go check that out at bitcoinbook. shop. That's also where you can get all of Knut's books, whole ton of other books in translation. Anything else you want to highlight or talk about, Nikol, Konsensus related or otherwise?

Niko: No, that's pretty much it. I'm, this is the project that I've been the most excited this year. Uh, it's a, it's a world first, it's the first original production for us. It's got 21 future, uh, 21 authors writing about 21 stories. I'm really excited to see if it does well and how people like the stories because, uh, so far it's only been me and Phil who read all of the stories.[00:52:00]

So we don't really know what the market reaction to this will be. Um, yeah, I'm, I'm really excited about to see how, how this is. Everything else has sort of taken a backseat for me right now. I know that we're publishing left and right all the time. Like we have, we still have like five titles coming up this year by Christmas, different languages.

Including Per Buhlund's How to Think About Economics, or whatever the title was. I haven't read that

book, but apparently it's very good.

Knut: Yeah. And Lynn Alden's book, right?

Niko: Oh yeah, we're doing, um, this is also one of the new services that we provide to authors to handle the translations. Because that's, that's how we started, that's how we, uh, that's what we

specialize in, managing the... Language translations. That doesn't mean we do all the translations ourselves. We, we do five full in, uh, but we, whenever there's a request and there's a lot of requests and, and, uh, demand for Lin's book, uh, amazingly so.[00:53:00]

So we, we just handle all of that and make sure that the book gets the proper treatment and gets the professional, uh, publisher, local publisher to handle it. And, uh, and a mutually beneficial deal, uh, on royalties, of course, so it's, it's like a language agent service and that one has, has been doing really well.

It's something we also, uh, been doing, been doing, uh, for Saifedean since the beginning. And, uh, yeah, we, we actually just recently reached 10 versions of Bitcoin Standard, uh, our own publications. And that's not including the ones that we help, help with. So that's, uh, that's our specialization, but, um, I'm really bullish about the original production.

We have, uh, the first original French book coming out for Christmas. That's going to be interesting. And, uh, there's another. book, uh, about the history of, uh, Mt. Gox, um, and Karpalas. I haven't heard of that book. Apparently it's only available in [00:54:00] French. So we would have to translate it into English. We're working on that.

That, that should be an interesting historical read. So more and more venturing into these, uh, not directly Bitcoin related things. Also libertarian books, like, the Free Cities, conference in Prague is really great. The Liberty in Our Lifetime met a ton of people, cool people there. They're basically Bitcoiners because they come from libertarian background.

So very fertile ground for this kind of things. And I want to include in our library more and more of libertarian books that are, in my opinion, Bitcoin books. But Bitcoin might not even be mentioned at all. And this is also part of the whole, The idea of taking the next step to broaden our market, because let's face where we're currently selling for, uh, for Bitcoiners, Bitcoiners want, um, reinforcement to their own ideas.

They want to read, uh, feel good stories like Knut's, for example, bullish, bullish things [00:55:00] to reinforce, uh, their, their own convictions, but I'm interested in waking up more people. And I think Bitcoin might not be the first step. Um, I don't think it was the first step for me. I became a freedom maximalist long before I became a Bitcoin guy.

And Bitcoin for me is just a, just a tool. And I believe that that's the path to take. Uh, with other people as well. So less, less Bitcoin, more Liberty. And that's why I now profile Konsensus as Freedom Publishing House rather than Bitcoin Publishing House. Even though Bitcoin is obviously still very much, uh, the main, main focus.

But that's probably not how we should be marketing this. These books and these things to people.

Knut: Yeah. Luke, can you bring up bitcoinbook. shop on, on, on screen maybe?

So this is, uh, Bitcoin book Shop where you can find all these Bitcoin books and, uh, mees [00:56:00] oriented books and, uh, the translations of them. So, so explain to us here, uh, uh, Niko, how, how does this page work, and then how do you find a book and how do you pay for it?

Niko: Sure. Uh, first of all, I have to apologize to everybody because currently our website sucks. We're working on it, um, to improving it right now. It takes you to this landing page, which just has the most recent titles, which is kind of confusing because we have the Norwegian Bitcoin standard. We have a French book.

We have a libertarian book. We have 21 futures. We have a French version of the Bitcoin handbook. And, uh, you have to go to collections to pick your language. Or you can use the search. So if you click on the English, you will see our English titles. And then, um, you, you can sort them in any way you, where you like, but yeah, we, we're working on improving the UX because currently it's not great.

Apart from that problem, it works like any other webshop. You click on the book, put it in your basket. If you [00:57:00] have a discount code like Knut Svanholm, for example, you can slap that in during the checkout process. And the. Get 10 percent off and support the author who has that code. It's a great way to save money and so show your support.

Yeah, that's the way you do. And then of course. Uh, once, once you get to the checkout, you have to fill in your address, obviously, and phone number for the delivery, and then you get to get an option to pay within fiat or in Bitcoin. And I have to say that I've been really surprised that so many people still choose to use Bitcoin, even though it's, it's the bear market, like 50 percent of our sales are in Bitcoin and most of those in Lightning.

It's pretty amazing considering we, we got rid of the 10 percent discount we used to have from day one. For using Bitcoin. I don't think we need that anymore. Like Bitcoin is already the superior way to pay. So [00:58:00] I mean, if, if you would, uh, get a 10% discount, that's just, uh, gravy on top of the cake, so, so I, I don't, I think it's redundant.

You don't need that. If anything, we should instate a fiat hazard. And then make the Bitcoin price the correct price and then charge more for fiat because that's, that's the, that is actually the case. We have way more expenses to cover with, uh, with credit card payments, but yeah, that's how it works. And Bitcoin payments themselves work really well.

Like we haven't had really any, any problems. The only problems may become when somebody is using an obscure wallet. That doesn't support the QR code we have, the combined QR code, which has the on chain address and the Lightning address. Or if the purchase is so large that somewhere during the transfer there's not enough liquidity on a channel.

But like 99 percent it works perfectly just as it should. So I'm really proud of the Bitcoin payment rails we have and people seem to like it because they prefer [00:59:00] to pay in Bitcoin. We prefer to be paid in Bitcoin. People prefer to pay in Bitcoin, which is fantastic.

Knut: Love to hear it and looking forward to everything Konsensus related in the future and looking forward to see where, where it all goes. And, uh, yeah, and looking forward to getting that recipe for cake with gravy on top that you talked about. Uh, uh, it sounds delicious.

[00:59:27] Wrapping Up

Knut: And, uh, yeah, I, I think this is a good place to wrap up.

What do you think, Luke? Um, is there anything you want to add, Niko? Uh, we already asked that, I guess, but we, we, uh,

Niko: Yeah. You're trying to milk something. Yeah. I think I said everything and, and, uh, It's been a good talk. Thank you very much again for inviting me. And, uh, yeah, one more thing is, is, uh, do check our YouTube channel. It's been a little bit dormant for, for a while, but now there's a new show about 21 futures.

So if you are curious about this project, I think the best way at the moment is to go [01:00:00] and watch some of those videos, uh, including Knut. Uh, Joni is going to be out next week. Uh, mine is, mine is, uh, out already and, and a couple of other authors. So the author is going to talk about their story, how they got involved, talk about the project.

How did, how did it work? How was the experience? So, um, check that out. Yeah.

Knut: excellent. And, uh, where do we find you on, uh, online at, uh, Omni Finn, right?

Niko: Yeah. OmniFin on Twitter and also on Telegram. I'm on Telegram every day, all day. So that's the best way to reach me. Uh, Twitter. Lately, I've been getting more into shit posting, so watch out for those. And of course, follow Konsensus, uh, Twitter, KonsensusN. Um, that, that one is, um, also doing a lot of shit posting.

So good content there.

Knut: Yeah. Konsensus with a K. All right. Thank you very much, Niko. Keep rocking. Uh, uh, don't forget to like, subscribe and brush your teeth, people, and, uh, see you in the next one.

Luke: [01:01:00] This has been the Freedom Footprint Show. Thanks for listening.