Oct. 3, 2023

Money, Meaning, and Metaphysics with Robert Breedlove - Freedom Footprint Show 56

Money, Meaning, and Metaphysics with Robert Breedlove - Freedom Footprint Show 56

In this episode we are joined by Robert Breedlove, host of the "What is Money?" show - home to some of the best deep-dive series into the world of money and Bitcoin, including the Saylor series with Michael Saylor. 
Our conversation today is inspired...

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The Bitcoin Infinity Show

In this episode we are joined by Robert Breedlove, host of the "What is Money?" show - home to some of the best deep-dive series into the world of money and Bitcoin, including the Saylor series with Michael Saylor. 

Our conversation today is inspired by many of the books that have defined our personal experiences and bitcoin journeys: 
- Maps of Meaning by Jordan Peterson
- Human Action by Ludwig von Mises
- Economic Science and the Austrian Method by Hans-Hermann Hoppe
- Lila by Robert Pirsig

We also discuss value and its connection to praxeology; we reflect on communication, language and argumentation ethic; And finally we ask Robert for his answer to the age old question “What is Money?”

Connect with Robert on Twitter: https://twitter.com/Breedlove22

00:00:00 - Intro
00:02:07 - Welcoming Robert Breedlove
00:15:55 - What is Money to Robert Breedlove?
00:22:08 - Communication, Language, and Argumentation Ethics
00:27:54 - Voluntary vs Consensual
00:38:15 - ESAM and Lila
00:47:23 - Ownership vs Possession
00:56:09 - Opting Out With Bitcoin
01:04:38 - Bitcoin Adoption Under Hyperinflation
01:13:14 - Will Bitcoin Ever Stabilize?
01:20:48 - Wrapping Up 

The Freedom Footprint Show is hosted by Knut Svanholm and BTCPseudoFinn. We are concerned about your Freedom Footprint! Join us as we talk to #bitcoin philosophers about how #bitcoin can expand your Freedom Footprint and much more!

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In each episode, we explore everything from deep philosophy to practical tools to emit freedom dioxide to expand your freedom footprint!

Transcript
1 00:00:00,210 --> 00:00:05,089 it's mind bending still to me that it's just this, " just", this monetary 2 00:00:05,089 --> 00:00:09,289 innovation, which is, I never thought it would be such a philosophical rabbit 3 00:00:09,289 --> 00:00:11,299 hole in so many different directions. 4 00:00:11,329 --> 00:00:15,141 And, I don't know, sometimes I catch myself like the things I'm reading about 5 00:00:15,141 --> 00:00:18,931 or thinking about, I'm like, how did this all, how did Bitcoin lead to all this? 6 00:00:19,953 --> 00:00:21,723 Welcome back to the Freedom Footprint Show. 7 00:00:22,079 --> 00:00:26,089 The Bitcoin Philosophy Show with Knut Svanholm and me, Luke the Pseudo Finn. 8 00:00:26,633 --> 00:00:30,493 In today's episode, we're joined by our friend Robert Breedlove, host of 9 00:00:30,493 --> 00:00:34,403 the What Is Money show, home to some of the best deep dive series into the 10 00:00:34,403 --> 00:00:38,543 world of money and bitcoin, including the Saylor series with Michael Saylor. 11 00:00:39,196 --> 00:00:42,826 Our conversation today is inspired by many of the books that have defined our 12 00:00:42,846 --> 00:00:44,986 personal experiences and bitcoin journeys. 13 00:00:45,566 --> 00:00:48,856 Maps of Meaning by Jordan Peterson, Human Action by Mises. 14 00:00:49,501 --> 00:00:53,801 Economic Science and the Austrian Method by Hoppe, and Lila by Robert Persik. 15 00:00:54,373 --> 00:00:57,453 We also discuss value and its connection to praxeology. 16 00:00:57,793 --> 00:01:01,143 We reflect on communication, language, and argumentation ethics. 17 00:01:01,678 --> 00:01:07,008 And finally, we ask Robert for his answer to the age old question, what is money? 18 00:01:07,630 --> 00:01:08,090 Curious? 19 00:01:08,690 --> 00:01:09,370 Keep listening. 20 00:01:09,880 --> 00:01:13,540 But before we jump in, a quick reminder that the best way to support the show 21 00:01:13,790 --> 00:01:17,120 is to send us a boost or stream us some sats using a value for value 22 00:01:17,120 --> 00:01:18,900 podcasting app such as Fountain. 23 00:01:19,197 --> 00:01:22,117 If you're listening to this show as a podcast, check it out on Fountain. 24 00:01:22,387 --> 00:01:24,827 You can earn sats from listening and you can support us. 25 00:01:25,182 --> 00:01:26,602 And all your other favorite shows. 26 00:01:27,040 --> 00:01:30,630 You can also support us on geyser or send sats directly to our lightning 27 00:01:30,630 --> 00:01:32,740 address freedom at geyser dot fund. 28 00:01:33,510 --> 00:01:36,890 And if you want to exchange your dirty fiat, you can support us on Patreon. 29 00:01:37,390 --> 00:01:38,860 All our links are in the description. 30 00:01:39,449 --> 00:01:41,879 If you're watching on YouTube, don't forget to like the episode 31 00:01:41,879 --> 00:01:42,999 and subscribe to the channel. 32 00:01:43,569 --> 00:01:46,249 Even if you're listening as a podcast, head over to our YouTube 33 00:01:46,249 --> 00:01:47,779 channel and subscribe to us there. 34 00:01:48,029 --> 00:01:48,919 It would be a big help. 35 00:01:49,343 --> 00:01:51,623 And finally, we want to thank today's sponsors. 36 00:01:52,073 --> 00:01:56,793 AmberApp, WasabiWallet, OrangePillApp, TheBitcoinWay, and Geyser. 37 00:01:57,463 --> 00:01:59,183 All their information is in the description. 38 00:01:59,323 --> 00:02:00,943 We'll be talking a bit more about them later. 39 00:02:01,829 --> 00:02:05,969 And now, without further ado, here is Robert Breedlove on 40 00:02:05,969 --> 00:02:07,019 the Freedom Footprint show. 41 00:02:07,846 --> 00:02:09,506 Rob, welcome to the Freedom Footprint show. 42 00:02:09,516 --> 00:02:10,376 Thanks for joining us. 43 00:02:10,963 --> 00:02:12,153 Hey guys, thanks for having me. 44 00:02:12,163 --> 00:02:12,933 Happy to be here. 45 00:02:13,380 --> 00:02:14,700 Yeah, happy to have you on Rob. 46 00:02:14,720 --> 00:02:18,780 Um, I've been on your show three times, I think, so it's 47 00:02:18,780 --> 00:02:20,090 about time you come to ours. 48 00:02:20,539 --> 00:02:21,629 Yeah, I think so. 49 00:02:21,739 --> 00:02:22,509 I'm overdue. 50 00:02:23,844 --> 00:02:25,704 we met briefly in Riga. 51 00:02:25,904 --> 00:02:30,714 We were both busy, you a bit busier than us, as usual. 52 00:02:31,174 --> 00:02:33,234 And you did a bunch of interviews there. 53 00:02:34,074 --> 00:02:34,964 I mean, you're a... 54 00:02:35,744 --> 00:02:38,924 You work like a Terminator and look like one as well for that. 55 00:02:39,204 --> 00:02:45,464 I mean, you've been doing a ton of interviews and I'm really impressed 56 00:02:45,464 --> 00:02:47,484 by that work ethic of yours. 57 00:02:47,524 --> 00:02:50,484 Like it's, it's, uh, it's always on, it seems. 58 00:02:51,097 --> 00:02:51,587 thank you. 59 00:02:51,707 --> 00:02:55,297 Well, I mean, you know how the podcasting thing is like when 60 00:02:55,297 --> 00:02:56,827 you're doing it, it's very intense. 61 00:02:57,247 --> 00:03:00,967 There's, especially when you're at events and everyone's there, you get 62 00:03:00,967 --> 00:03:05,067 a lot of juice for the squeeze by just really getting all the speakers or 63 00:03:05,067 --> 00:03:08,157 whoever's attending the event together and knocking out a bunch of interviews. 64 00:03:09,187 --> 00:03:10,607 But then you get to. 65 00:03:10,997 --> 00:03:13,727 You know, turned down hopefully for a few days after that. 66 00:03:13,737 --> 00:03:16,807 So, seems like it's kind of like sprint and then rest 67 00:03:17,767 --> 00:03:19,657 type of work, work frequency. 68 00:03:20,342 --> 00:03:21,952 yeah, it's a good lifestyle. 69 00:03:22,427 --> 00:03:22,837 yeah, 70 00:03:22,842 --> 00:03:25,782 um, so who did you interview in 71 00:03:27,227 --> 00:03:28,347 Yeah, we had Adam back. 72 00:03:29,216 --> 00:03:31,696 talked a little bit about the block size wars with him. 73 00:03:31,826 --> 00:03:34,706 Uh, in addition to some other things they've been doing over at Blockstream. 74 00:03:35,416 --> 00:03:36,786 Talked to Dylan LeClair. 75 00:03:37,728 --> 00:03:43,628 Spoke with, um, I don't want to mispronounce his name now, the 76 00:03:43,628 --> 00:03:46,368 last Austrian economist in Austria, 77 00:03:46,723 --> 00:03:47,643 Taghisadigan. 78 00:03:47,758 --> 00:03:53,068 Rahim, thank you, had a good lengthy conversation with him, uh, and 79 00:03:53,068 --> 00:03:56,508 a few others, so yeah, it was a good time, and then it looks like, 80 00:03:56,948 --> 00:03:59,968 this isn't final yet, but it looks like I'll try to go to Lugano, 81 00:04:01,033 --> 00:04:01,893 Oh, excellent. 82 00:04:02,033 --> 00:04:03,273 We're coming to Lugano too. 83 00:04:03,868 --> 00:04:06,908 yeah, so we'll try to do the same thing there, get some people together, have 84 00:04:06,908 --> 00:04:11,708 some interviews, and then also, uh, I'll be at Jordan Peterson's event 85 00:04:11,718 --> 00:04:16,388 at the end of October, beginning of November in London, and so I'll be 86 00:04:16,398 --> 00:04:19,358 interviewing some of the speakers at that event there, so that'll be not, 87 00:04:19,438 --> 00:04:24,803 obviously that's not a Bitcoin event, um, But definitely a lot of people in 88 00:04:24,803 --> 00:04:28,273 the, let's say freedom focused universe. 89 00:04:29,203 --> 00:04:31,993 Um, hopefully having them on for some in person interviews as well. 90 00:04:32,003 --> 00:04:33,563 So I'm super excited for all that. 91 00:04:33,810 --> 00:04:36,130 you gave me the perfect segue, Rob. 92 00:04:36,155 --> 00:04:36,568 Yes. 93 00:04:36,765 --> 00:04:37,255 Yes. 94 00:04:38,140 --> 00:04:41,790 so, so, so, uh, I'll just give you like a quick little bit of, of 95 00:04:41,800 --> 00:04:46,560 background, but like basically you and the you, you were my orange pill. 96 00:04:46,590 --> 00:04:47,260 Absolutely. 97 00:04:47,740 --> 00:04:48,400 Oh, nice. 98 00:04:48,470 --> 00:04:48,550 so. 99 00:04:49,060 --> 00:04:54,670 You know, first personal thank you for that, but the way I found you was when 100 00:04:54,670 --> 00:05:00,215 you went on Lex Friedman, and I'd been watching kind of all of his crypto and 101 00:05:00,215 --> 00:05:06,660 bitcoin related people at the time, but yours was, well, unique, and the 102 00:05:06,700 --> 00:05:10,700 thing that I latched onto was somewhere in the middle there you mentioned 103 00:05:11,150 --> 00:05:15,510 Jordan Peterson, and you called Maps of Meaning one of your most use cases. 104 00:05:15,620 --> 00:05:18,920 Meaningful books, like the books you would recommend the most, I believe it 105 00:05:18,930 --> 00:05:23,850 was Human Action and Maps of Meaning were the two you mentioned there, and well, 106 00:05:23,910 --> 00:05:31,930 basically, I've been a Peterson guy for a long time now, um, helped me through 107 00:05:31,930 --> 00:05:37,015 my younger adulthood, Uh, so to say, I'm still young, but, uh, you know, getting 108 00:05:37,015 --> 00:05:43,225 there, um, but the, the main thing, I guess, that I wanted to, to ask or to, to 109 00:05:43,225 --> 00:05:47,935 talk to you a little bit about was, uh, so I'm rereading Maps of Meaning again, and, 110 00:05:47,935 --> 00:05:52,855 and it just kind of, it's all fantastic stuff, but can, can you tell a little 111 00:05:52,855 --> 00:05:56,575 bit about what you got out of that book? 112 00:05:56,575 --> 00:05:58,695 What, uh, Maps of Meaning means to you? 113 00:05:58,695 --> 00:05:58,775 Thank you. 114 00:05:59,990 --> 00:06:00,360 Yeah. 115 00:06:00,390 --> 00:06:06,600 Um, yeah, the, the, the books that I mentioned on the Lex Fridman podcast 116 00:06:06,610 --> 00:06:11,810 were Maps of Meaning, Human Action, and then Robert Persick's book, Lila. 117 00:06:13,345 --> 00:06:17,005 And I think reading those three books together is one, a good way 118 00:06:17,005 --> 00:06:23,227 to dematerialize your worldview in the sense that you'll move away from 119 00:06:23,227 --> 00:06:27,207 being a materialist into someone that understands the world, uh, just 120 00:06:27,207 --> 00:06:28,337 through a different framework, right? 121 00:06:28,337 --> 00:06:31,437 A framework of value, a framework of Praxeology in the case of 122 00:06:31,437 --> 00:06:36,257 human action, um, and maybe even a different metaphysical framework 123 00:06:36,267 --> 00:06:40,593 when you use something like Lila, that the book that really posits 124 00:06:40,593 --> 00:06:44,393 that value is the fundamental ground stuff of reality in a way. 125 00:06:45,213 --> 00:06:48,813 So I just thought those three books are very interesting to read together, which 126 00:06:48,813 --> 00:06:51,173 I just happened to do at that time. 127 00:06:51,173 --> 00:06:55,843 But maps of meaning specifically, I think Peterson, I mean, he's 128 00:06:55,843 --> 00:07:00,198 drawing very heavily on like Carl Jung and, and others, but he's. 129 00:07:01,163 --> 00:07:06,403 Basically putting forth, uh, a worldview that's non materialist, right? 130 00:07:06,403 --> 00:07:12,373 It has more to do with value, um, has more to do with, you know, what 131 00:07:12,373 --> 00:07:16,573 you value actually determines what, not only how you see the world, but 132 00:07:16,583 --> 00:07:18,593 what you actually see in the world. 133 00:07:19,213 --> 00:07:22,863 One of the experiments he often likes to cite is the selective attention 134 00:07:22,863 --> 00:07:27,993 experiment, where there's, uh, people are charged with the task of counting 135 00:07:27,993 --> 00:07:31,013 the number of basketball passes between these two teams on a video. 136 00:07:31,893 --> 00:07:36,813 And When they do that, they fail to see the six foot man in a gorilla costume 137 00:07:36,813 --> 00:07:39,473 come into the middle of the screen and wave his arms around for a few 138 00:07:39,473 --> 00:07:42,923 seconds and walk off screen because they're so focused on the task of 139 00:07:42,923 --> 00:07:44,543 actually counting the number of passes. 140 00:07:45,233 --> 00:07:48,573 So the point being that when they value achieving the objective of 141 00:07:48,573 --> 00:07:53,193 counting the number of passes, that you actually fail to see six foot gorillas 142 00:07:53,193 --> 00:07:54,933 walking into the middle of your frame. 143 00:07:55,553 --> 00:07:55,953 Um... 144 00:07:57,508 --> 00:07:59,688 And so value, valuation, or the process of valuation is actually 145 00:07:59,688 --> 00:08:02,498 determining what you see in the world, not just how you see the world. 146 00:08:03,448 --> 00:08:06,218 And, you know, the bookmaps of meaning, I don't know that 147 00:08:06,218 --> 00:08:07,628 I'd recommend it to everyone. 148 00:08:07,638 --> 00:08:09,098 It's very dense. 149 00:08:09,228 --> 00:08:15,158 I think Peterson said he spent 15 years and three, three hours 150 00:08:15,158 --> 00:08:16,988 a day for 15 years writing it. 151 00:08:17,008 --> 00:08:17,863 Something just... 152 00:08:18,563 --> 00:08:20,553 You know, just an absurd amount of work went into it. 153 00:08:20,563 --> 00:08:25,892 The sentences are very dense, but he, he goes down a lot of the, 154 00:08:25,922 --> 00:08:29,832 the psychological rabbit holes that Jungian psychology gets into. 155 00:08:30,622 --> 00:08:33,502 I really got, one of the most fascinating parts of that book for me 156 00:08:33,502 --> 00:08:38,762 was towards the end when he's talking about alchemy, um, and just the 157 00:08:38,762 --> 00:08:42,532 nature of what alchemy was said to be. 158 00:08:42,542 --> 00:08:43,552 You know, it was said to like. 159 00:08:44,917 --> 00:08:48,177 Be a process that paralleled the passion of Christ. 160 00:08:48,187 --> 00:08:52,937 It was the pursuit of the lapis philosophorum, which was the philosopher's 161 00:08:52,967 --> 00:08:56,787 stone, which was said to be the incorruptible substance that would serve 162 00:08:56,787 --> 00:08:58,657 as an antidote for tyranny in the world. 163 00:08:59,960 --> 00:09:03,770 and I, you know, there were just so many parallels with Bitcoin there. 164 00:09:04,160 --> 00:09:06,470 Also like by interacting with the philosopher's stone, it 165 00:09:06,470 --> 00:09:08,090 actually makes you better. 166 00:09:08,600 --> 00:09:12,110 And so we often talk about Bitcoiners going down the Bitcoin rabbit hole and 167 00:09:12,110 --> 00:09:14,280 experiencing personal transformations. 168 00:09:15,341 --> 00:09:18,141 You know, I don't, maybe I, maybe I've drank too much of the orange Kool 169 00:09:18,141 --> 00:09:22,901 Aid, but I definitely saw a lot of parallels between Peterson's discussion 170 00:09:22,931 --> 00:09:27,141 of alchemy and the Philosopher's Stone to, to Bitcoin overall. 171 00:09:27,771 --> 00:09:32,751 And then, you know, where I think JBP, I guess, obviously saying maps 172 00:09:32,751 --> 00:09:36,141 of meaning, you could have also called the book maps of value in a way. 173 00:09:37,051 --> 00:09:37,601 And there's. 174 00:09:38,101 --> 00:09:43,931 A lot of talk about meaning and a lot of talk about value, but that, it, it sort of 175 00:09:43,941 --> 00:09:48,681 doesn't get into, it doesn't, he doesn't have Mises in his worldview, right? 176 00:09:48,741 --> 00:09:53,141 He doesn't have praxeology, he doesn't have human action, so it's like, it fails 177 00:09:53,151 --> 00:09:57,871 to see this deep connection, perhaps even, you might even say value and 178 00:09:57,881 --> 00:09:59,581 action are like the same thing, right? 179 00:09:59,591 --> 00:10:02,091 All human action is an expression of value. 180 00:10:02,591 --> 00:10:05,831 Um, I'm not completely convinced it's just human though, like, I 181 00:10:05,831 --> 00:10:09,151 think purpose might be something that exists beyond just the human domain. 182 00:10:09,831 --> 00:10:12,281 Obviously that's more of a metaphysical debate. 183 00:10:13,047 --> 00:10:18,497 but I think that in JVP's work, it keeps the matter of value rather 184 00:10:18,517 --> 00:10:22,087 abstract and that he doesn't ground it out in the practical realities of, 185 00:10:22,117 --> 00:10:24,347 of actually, of actual human action. 186 00:10:24,907 --> 00:10:27,797 And I think that's where you get a lot of value by plugging in, reading 187 00:10:27,797 --> 00:10:29,447 the book, Human Action and Mises. 188 00:10:30,367 --> 00:10:32,947 And then, uh, again, with, with Lila, you get this. 189 00:10:33,557 --> 00:10:38,337 Sort of metaphysical grounding, um, in addition to those two 190 00:10:38,337 --> 00:10:42,757 books that really just sort of rounds out the counterpoint to the 191 00:10:42,757 --> 00:10:44,667 materialist worldview, you might say, 192 00:10:45,266 --> 00:10:50,606 yeah, the density of maps of meaning is, is, yeah, it's, it's quite something. 193 00:10:50,786 --> 00:10:53,306 I've appreciated his, his lecture. 194 00:10:53,616 --> 00:10:57,176 series on that topic, uh, which kind of distilled that and made 195 00:10:57,176 --> 00:10:58,416 it a little bit more accessible. 196 00:10:58,416 --> 00:11:02,126 But when he, when he came out with 12 rules for life, I, I'd actually been 197 00:11:02,126 --> 00:11:07,726 hoping for like a, like a maps of meaning light instead, and sort of the rules 198 00:11:07,726 --> 00:11:09,546 for life series is that, but it's, it's. 199 00:11:10,391 --> 00:11:13,611 Of course, it's couched in this framing that's supposed 200 00:11:13,621 --> 00:11:15,321 to make it ultra accessible. 201 00:11:15,321 --> 00:11:18,941 And yeah, that's, that's had maybe mixed success, I would say. 202 00:11:18,941 --> 00:11:23,191 But yeah, the, I really like your point, I guess, about the, that 203 00:11:23,191 --> 00:11:25,111 maps of value could be an alternate. 204 00:11:26,196 --> 00:11:33,136 And, um, certainly agree that, that his, his, uh, lack of the praxeological 205 00:11:33,136 --> 00:11:37,206 point is glaringly obvious when you've been looking at that, uh, side of 206 00:11:37,206 --> 00:11:41,606 things, but yeah, um, that was, that was kind of my, uh, comments there, 207 00:11:41,606 --> 00:11:43,516 but Knut, any, any thoughts on that? 208 00:11:44,256 --> 00:11:44,726 Curious. 209 00:11:44,726 --> 00:11:46,566 When did you last speak to Jordan? 210 00:11:47,413 --> 00:11:51,093 I mean, we've traded emails about the event, so, just over the past 211 00:11:51,113 --> 00:11:54,423 several months, but, spoken to him? 212 00:11:54,573 --> 00:11:55,593 Actually spoken to him? 213 00:11:55,703 --> 00:11:58,213 I haven't spoken to him since we did our thing in Miami. 214 00:11:58,983 --> 00:11:59,443 Okay. 215 00:11:59,663 --> 00:12:04,533 So, so do you think he's properly orange pill at this point? 216 00:12:04,543 --> 00:12:09,253 You see, we see some hints, uh, back and forth, but then once in a while, he 217 00:12:09,283 --> 00:12:13,873 says something sort of counter to the Bitcoin ethos in terms of the, you know, 218 00:12:13,873 --> 00:12:15,993 internet anonymity and stuff like that. 219 00:12:16,033 --> 00:12:20,797 And he doesn't really seem to grasp the importance of, of privacy, or. 220 00:12:20,797 --> 00:12:20,917 Yeah. 221 00:12:20,917 --> 00:12:20,937 Yeah. 222 00:12:21,697 --> 00:12:27,527 Just have a different, different outlook than on that topic than most Bitcoiners. 223 00:12:28,017 --> 00:12:34,397 Um, so, so where do you think he is in his, um, rabbit hole journey? 224 00:12:34,885 --> 00:12:39,455 Well, I would definitely say he is not properly orange pilled yet. 225 00:12:39,575 --> 00:12:45,065 Um, as we all know, that takes, whatever, X hundred hours to get to that point. 226 00:12:45,865 --> 00:12:50,385 Somewhere between one and a few hundred hours, I guess, depending on who you 227 00:12:50,385 --> 00:12:52,025 are, what approach you take, et cetera. 228 00:12:52,685 --> 00:12:56,085 Uh, I doubt he's spent that much time at all. 229 00:12:56,095 --> 00:12:59,375 Like it seems like he paid attention to Bitcoin in the bull market. 230 00:12:59,775 --> 00:13:03,045 And then when bull market ceased, he kind of stopped paying attention. 231 00:13:03,875 --> 00:13:05,755 Um, he still tweets things out though. 232 00:13:05,765 --> 00:13:07,105 Like can Bitcoin fix this? 233 00:13:07,395 --> 00:13:10,115 You know, he'll be tweeting out some 234 00:13:10,595 --> 00:13:11,135 Yeah. 235 00:13:11,215 --> 00:13:12,415 That's the last week, right? 236 00:13:12,755 --> 00:13:13,665 Yeah, something, 237 00:13:13,785 --> 00:13:14,295 something. 238 00:13:15,379 --> 00:13:18,089 Oh, Australia moving people to a cashless society. 239 00:13:18,089 --> 00:13:21,259 I think they were just turning off physical cash, you know, and he's 240 00:13:21,269 --> 00:13:22,499 saying, Oh, can Bitcoin fix this? 241 00:13:22,539 --> 00:13:25,219 And we're like, Oh, of course, that's a counterparty, basically 242 00:13:25,219 --> 00:13:26,589 rug pulling you effectively. 243 00:13:27,159 --> 00:13:29,169 And so Bitcoin's money without a counterparty. 244 00:13:29,179 --> 00:13:30,589 So yeah, Bitcoin does fix that. 245 00:13:31,165 --> 00:13:33,255 no one's going to turn off Bitcoin on you, right? 246 00:13:33,255 --> 00:13:35,485 Whereas they can basically turn off physical cash. 247 00:13:36,355 --> 00:13:39,285 So, Uh, his curiosity is there. 248 00:13:39,295 --> 00:13:40,655 Where is he at on his journey? 249 00:13:40,655 --> 00:13:43,935 I'm not entirely sure, but he will be the first to admit to 250 00:13:43,945 --> 00:13:48,975 you that he doesn't have a strong understanding of economics in general. 251 00:13:49,622 --> 00:13:53,072 even the way he describes money, you know, he describes money as trust. 252 00:13:53,972 --> 00:13:56,812 And again, I think this is, you get very muddy with the language here 253 00:13:56,812 --> 00:14:01,492 because I would lean more on Nick Szabo's perspective of money being 254 00:14:01,492 --> 00:14:03,852 the trust minimized asset, right? 255 00:14:04,512 --> 00:14:08,952 The thing that I can use in exchange with the least need to trust anyone, right? 256 00:14:08,952 --> 00:14:10,222 Least counterparty risk. 257 00:14:11,312 --> 00:14:14,692 And so, but again, the trust... 258 00:14:15,192 --> 00:14:16,802 is an ambivalent term, right? 259 00:14:16,802 --> 00:14:21,062 Because it's like, okay, there's a, there's the least need for interpersonal 260 00:14:21,072 --> 00:14:25,972 trust, but it's the same thing as saying you have trust in the integrity 261 00:14:25,972 --> 00:14:30,192 or credibility of the monetary properties associated with the money. 262 00:14:30,592 --> 00:14:35,092 It's like saying, okay, when I walk across a bridge, am I trusting an 263 00:14:35,092 --> 00:14:39,132 individual to keep or individuals to keep the bridge intact? 264 00:14:39,172 --> 00:14:43,272 Or am I trusting principles of civil engineering that were properly applied? 265 00:14:43,932 --> 00:14:47,267 You know, so it's, Interpersonal versus impersonal trust. 266 00:14:47,267 --> 00:14:51,117 And so when he just says money is trust, I think it's very much 267 00:14:51,137 --> 00:14:53,367 ambivalent and not that useful. 268 00:14:54,217 --> 00:14:56,977 So there's that. 269 00:14:56,977 --> 00:15:02,537 And then again, you know, I would love to hear him really try to expand 270 00:15:02,537 --> 00:15:04,427 upon the question, what is value? 271 00:15:05,377 --> 00:15:08,347 Because I don't know what value is other than. 272 00:15:09,607 --> 00:15:12,787 What is expressed in human action, right? 273 00:15:12,797 --> 00:15:15,847 What else is value other than what is expressed in human action? 274 00:15:16,577 --> 00:15:21,457 And so for all of his focus on meaning and value, I don't think, I would like to hear 275 00:15:21,457 --> 00:15:24,307 what grounding definition he has for that. 276 00:15:25,047 --> 00:15:27,867 Because if you really come to understand that, then, um... 277 00:15:29,477 --> 00:15:33,687 Uh, you know, a lot of the arguments he's putting forth would just plug 278 00:15:33,687 --> 00:15:37,207 straight into praxeology and then he would go down the Mises rabbit hole 279 00:15:37,627 --> 00:15:40,917 and then presumably he would get thoroughly orange pills in the process. 280 00:15:41,587 --> 00:15:42,257 So I 281 00:15:42,282 --> 00:15:43,062 we love to see 282 00:15:43,862 --> 00:15:45,872 Yeah, we would love to see that. 283 00:15:46,132 --> 00:15:48,412 Um, but who knows? 284 00:15:48,432 --> 00:15:50,912 You know, he's also, he's an older guy, you know, I don't 285 00:15:50,912 --> 00:15:55,302 know how many more rabbit holes he's, he's got left to go down. 286 00:15:56,277 --> 00:15:59,387 so on that note, what, what is, what is your answer? 287 00:15:59,527 --> 00:16:01,207 Your personal answer to the question? 288 00:16:01,207 --> 00:16:01,967 What is money? 289 00:16:03,042 --> 00:16:04,722 I wish I had only one for you. 290 00:16:05,132 --> 00:16:09,539 Um, the thing, okay, I'll say, I'll say this first. 291 00:16:10,039 --> 00:16:17,609 That the most interesting thing for me on this three, almost three year journey now 292 00:16:17,629 --> 00:16:23,209 doing the podcast, the what is money show, asking this question to, I don't know how 293 00:16:23,209 --> 00:16:29,769 many we've had 360 something episodes, probably definitely over a hundred guests. 294 00:16:29,769 --> 00:16:33,319 You know, a lot of the episodes are long form series, so we have the same 295 00:16:33,319 --> 00:16:37,009 guests over and over, but I'd say we're, we've got to be over a hundred guests. 296 00:16:38,844 --> 00:16:45,894 And the fact that there are so many different answers to that question that 297 00:16:46,214 --> 00:16:52,714 make sense in certain contexts, um, it's like asking one of these other profound 298 00:16:52,714 --> 00:16:54,594 questions, like, you know, what is truth? 299 00:16:54,614 --> 00:16:55,704 What is justice? 300 00:16:56,424 --> 00:16:57,504 What is beauty? 301 00:16:57,504 --> 00:16:58,634 What is love? 302 00:16:59,514 --> 00:17:06,048 You know, You would think that these very, essential terms that we use 303 00:17:06,498 --> 00:17:10,918 would have very clear definitions that might be your intuitive position. 304 00:17:11,358 --> 00:17:13,618 It's like, well, of course we should know what truth is. 305 00:17:13,618 --> 00:17:16,198 You know, it's like one of the most important things in the world where 306 00:17:16,458 --> 00:17:20,178 we talk about it all the time, but then when you actually get into it 307 00:17:20,188 --> 00:17:23,808 and you try to define truth, you see that philosophers have been debating 308 00:17:23,808 --> 00:17:27,593 it for Many, many centuries and it continues to be a debate and there's 309 00:17:27,843 --> 00:17:29,293 different forms of truth, right? 310 00:17:29,293 --> 00:17:32,843 There's pragmatic truths and transcendental truth, 311 00:17:33,093 --> 00:17:33,813 et cetera, et cetera. 312 00:17:33,823 --> 00:17:39,803 So money for some reason is one of those terms, apparently one of these 313 00:17:39,803 --> 00:17:44,083 very potent, uh, essential terms. 314 00:17:44,103 --> 00:17:45,453 You know, it's an essential tool. 315 00:17:45,493 --> 00:17:48,983 Obviously everyone, every trading society. 316 00:17:49,968 --> 00:17:51,978 Has money or some form of money. 317 00:17:52,498 --> 00:17:56,008 Uh, you could also say that money's more of an attribute, right? 318 00:17:56,038 --> 00:17:57,718 Than, than necessarily a thing. 319 00:17:58,688 --> 00:18:03,078 Yeah, an adjective is what we said in the last talk we had, 320 00:18:03,198 --> 00:18:03,438 Yeah. 321 00:18:03,438 --> 00:18:04,278 An adjective, right? 322 00:18:04,278 --> 00:18:09,258 Because every asset that is traded in a marketplace has some degree of moneys, 323 00:18:09,648 --> 00:18:12,478 which is commensurate with its liquidity. 324 00:18:12,988 --> 00:18:16,768 And the thing that has the most moneys is the thing we call money, basically. 325 00:18:17,528 --> 00:18:26,458 so the, the very interesting realization that I've had or am having still is how. 326 00:18:28,103 --> 00:18:32,983 Indispensable, let's say, let's say insufficient languages, first of all, 327 00:18:32,983 --> 00:18:38,893 for describing this complex fluid world continuum that we all inhabit, you know, 328 00:18:38,893 --> 00:18:42,123 we're using these little discrete data packets called words and trying to map it 329 00:18:42,123 --> 00:18:44,793 onto this fluid domain we call reality. 330 00:18:45,473 --> 00:18:46,643 So it's insufficient. 331 00:18:46,988 --> 00:18:52,668 Yet, it's also indispensable in that it is the best tool we have for, well, 332 00:18:52,678 --> 00:18:57,628 thinking, communicating, rationalizing, reflecting, you know, calculating, etc. 333 00:18:58,418 --> 00:19:04,928 So been my big takeaway, I guess, from doing the show. 334 00:19:04,988 --> 00:19:07,148 Not takeaway, I'm not, it's nothing to take away. 335 00:19:07,148 --> 00:19:08,508 It's something I'm still thinking about. 336 00:19:08,508 --> 00:19:12,258 It's like, how do you describe the nature of language itself? 337 00:19:12,258 --> 00:19:14,278 And it's taken me into a lot of rabbit holes. 338 00:19:14,308 --> 00:19:20,868 Um, now to answer your question a little more directly, I still think. 339 00:19:21,108 --> 00:19:30,448 The most useful conception of money is as a storehouse or reservoir of time, 340 00:19:30,498 --> 00:19:36,046 you know, you might say human time, you might say lifetime, and it's not just 341 00:19:36,046 --> 00:19:39,566 money though, it's really capital, right? 342 00:19:39,566 --> 00:19:44,526 Capital is the result of human spending time, effort, and energy to create 343 00:19:44,556 --> 00:19:50,161 things That amplify the productivity of others or allow future consumption 344 00:19:50,211 --> 00:19:52,081 for themselves or other people. 345 00:19:52,571 --> 00:19:58,681 So all capital is kind of like a, a stored form of human time, but then 346 00:19:58,681 --> 00:20:04,511 money is just the, the form of capital that is most liquid, most tradable. 347 00:20:05,101 --> 00:20:05,841 And so. 348 00:20:06,341 --> 00:20:12,091 It becomes a very close reflection of time, and you see that in just 349 00:20:12,551 --> 00:20:15,801 people's day to day use of money, right, in that you go to work, you 350 00:20:16,291 --> 00:20:20,901 trade time for money, and then you take that money back into the marketplace. 351 00:20:21,716 --> 00:20:24,136 And you trade that money for the time of others. 352 00:20:24,166 --> 00:20:27,676 So people will serve you at the restaurant or building you a house or making 353 00:20:27,676 --> 00:20:29,476 you shoes or whatever the thing is. 354 00:20:30,346 --> 00:20:35,526 So I think there's a lot of intuitive value in framing it as time. 355 00:20:35,656 --> 00:20:39,496 And then I think it's also very useful for. 356 00:20:40,291 --> 00:20:43,711 Explicating the malevolent nature of central banking, where you're 357 00:20:43,711 --> 00:20:47,421 like, okay, if there's a currency counterfeiting monopoly, everyone's 358 00:20:47,421 --> 00:20:52,641 forced to use this stuff, they're stealing purchasing power through, you know, 359 00:20:52,641 --> 00:20:54,841 arbitrarily inflating the money supply. 360 00:20:54,881 --> 00:20:56,051 Well, what does that equate to? 361 00:20:56,051 --> 00:20:58,231 If money is time, okay. 362 00:20:58,231 --> 00:21:00,301 It's systematic time theft, right? 363 00:21:00,301 --> 00:21:04,291 People are having their time stolen systematically with every dollar printed. 364 00:21:05,201 --> 00:21:10,451 So, um, I guess that is still the answer that I lean on the most. 365 00:21:10,451 --> 00:21:13,361 I also think, you know, obviously Saylor bringing this whole perspective 366 00:21:14,041 --> 00:21:17,971 of money as energy to the table is a big deal because you could equally 367 00:21:17,971 --> 00:21:23,336 argue it's, well, money is time, money is energy, or As we've often 368 00:21:23,336 --> 00:21:25,006 said too, money is power, right? 369 00:21:25,006 --> 00:21:28,556 And power is a product of time and energy, right? 370 00:21:28,566 --> 00:21:33,066 It's the, I think power is the capacity to move energy over time, right? 371 00:21:33,599 --> 00:21:36,529 Or perform work over time, something like that in a physics sense. 372 00:21:36,539 --> 00:21:39,574 So again, you ask this question, what is money? 373 00:21:39,574 --> 00:21:46,439 And you end up in very fundamental domains like physics and, um, You 374 00:21:46,439 --> 00:21:48,229 know, time, like what is time? 375 00:21:48,229 --> 00:21:50,609 Time is probably the most mysterious thing in the universe. 376 00:21:51,209 --> 00:21:55,389 So it's maybe not useful from like a very practical standpoint to say money 377 00:21:55,389 --> 00:22:00,589 is time, but I think it's very useful from a philosophical standpoint in 378 00:22:00,659 --> 00:22:05,679 giving people somewhat of an intuitive explanatory framework to deal with 379 00:22:05,679 --> 00:22:08,409 this very abstract, mysterious notion. 380 00:22:09,228 --> 00:22:13,948 all right, so about communication and language in general, um, there's 381 00:22:13,948 --> 00:22:20,288 some points I have there, um, like, if, if we want to apply the non, 382 00:22:20,288 --> 00:22:24,493 non aggression principle, and if we want to Not use violence in any 383 00:22:24,493 --> 00:22:30,323 shape or form or fetch thereof, then in my mind, at least communication 384 00:22:30,323 --> 00:22:32,063 is the only tool we have left. 385 00:22:32,113 --> 00:22:37,723 Like it's, it's not only, you know, a tool, it's the tool that there, there 386 00:22:37,723 --> 00:22:39,483 are no other tools in the toolbox. 387 00:22:39,483 --> 00:22:46,023 Once, once you, once you, once you do not allow yourself to use force anymore. 388 00:22:46,733 --> 00:22:47,983 So that's the only thing we have. 389 00:22:47,983 --> 00:22:53,323 So we need, so clear definitions of words are crucial to that. 390 00:22:53,343 --> 00:22:58,213 And that's why one of the things I like so much about Mises in particular, 391 00:22:58,213 --> 00:23:03,103 that he's very, very careful with words and the definition of them. 392 00:23:03,593 --> 00:23:10,853 And to, I mean, I do agree that truth is a, uh, a very hard word to define, but 393 00:23:10,983 --> 00:23:13,703 the word true, the words true and false. 394 00:23:14,763 --> 00:23:21,143 In a sense are the binary of any language because we define everything else by 395 00:23:21,303 --> 00:23:26,153 having these, this binary base layer of language, which is that is true. 396 00:23:26,173 --> 00:23:27,053 And that is false. 397 00:23:27,133 --> 00:23:29,773 I mean, is truth hard to define? 398 00:23:30,143 --> 00:23:31,803 Yes, that is true. 399 00:23:31,893 --> 00:23:37,103 I mean, there's always, you can always boil down communication to these yin 400 00:23:37,103 --> 00:23:39,983 yang ones and zeros, true and false. 401 00:23:40,353 --> 00:23:46,428 So, so the word true, is, in a sense, easier to define than the word truth, and 402 00:23:46,428 --> 00:23:50,038 even easier than the word truthfulness, which is very hard to define. 403 00:23:50,488 --> 00:23:56,328 Um, because that implies some form of subjectivity, but what do you say to that? 404 00:23:56,538 --> 00:23:57,228 What are your thoughts? 405 00:23:57,843 --> 00:23:59,843 so there's a strange thing here. 406 00:23:59,893 --> 00:24:00,343 Okay. 407 00:24:01,583 --> 00:24:08,193 First of all, the importance of, and maybe this is why money is so hard to define 408 00:24:08,213 --> 00:24:12,333 as well, but I would say words, right? 409 00:24:12,333 --> 00:24:13,093 Language. 410 00:24:13,153 --> 00:24:14,683 This is a form. 411 00:24:15,728 --> 00:24:20,848 Words are a media of exchange, just like money is a, you know, Mises would say, 412 00:24:20,978 --> 00:24:22,998 money is a universal medium of exchange. 413 00:24:23,668 --> 00:24:25,578 Well, I would say so are words, right? 414 00:24:25,578 --> 00:24:29,058 We're, we're just using them to exchange as a medium to exchange 415 00:24:29,058 --> 00:24:31,558 human conceptions or ideas. 416 00:24:32,443 --> 00:24:35,983 Whereas money we're using to, as a medium of exchange for actual 417 00:24:36,083 --> 00:24:37,973 goods and services, capital, right? 418 00:24:37,973 --> 00:24:39,873 The results of human action, let's say. 419 00:24:40,793 --> 00:24:46,473 So maybe it's because of these, these intermediary devices. 420 00:24:47,353 --> 00:24:49,693 They're a little bit hard to pin down and define. 421 00:24:50,713 --> 00:24:56,723 Um, I do agree with you that absent rationality, all that 422 00:24:56,723 --> 00:24:58,803 really remains is raw power, right? 423 00:24:58,803 --> 00:24:59,703 It's might is right. 424 00:24:59,783 --> 00:25:00,763 If you can't have... 425 00:25:01,456 --> 00:25:04,866 Precise definitions that both people have consensus on, which 426 00:25:04,866 --> 00:25:06,156 is obviously very important. 427 00:25:06,766 --> 00:25:11,076 Your notion of the number 7 needs to match my notion of the number 7 for 428 00:25:11,076 --> 00:25:15,890 us to have rational communication about mathematics, for instance, which 429 00:25:15,890 --> 00:25:18,960 is another way of saying there has to be social consensus on each term. 430 00:25:19,950 --> 00:25:24,820 If you don't have that, right, if you have a lack of consensus or no language 431 00:25:24,820 --> 00:25:29,480 at all, no rationality, no rational argumentation, then what's left, right? 432 00:25:29,480 --> 00:25:31,200 It's just pure animality. 433 00:25:31,850 --> 00:25:33,810 Who, who can beat up who? 434 00:25:34,427 --> 00:25:39,257 Well, this boils back to Hoppe's argumentation ethics, which I find so 435 00:25:39,257 --> 00:25:44,337 insanely fascinating, because like, even if we don't have consensus on what the 436 00:25:44,347 --> 00:25:50,767 number seven means, We can allow ourselves to agree to disagree and like, there's 437 00:25:50,797 --> 00:25:55,357 where conversation ends, but as long as there's no, you know, property to fight 438 00:25:55,377 --> 00:25:57,887 over, we can still agree to disagree. 439 00:25:58,332 --> 00:26:01,992 Well, you can, uh, you, you can agree to disagree to the extent that rational 440 00:26:02,002 --> 00:26:03,682 communication is possible between you. 441 00:26:04,112 --> 00:26:05,062 That's the point that I'm trying to make. 442 00:26:05,637 --> 00:26:05,847 Yeah. 443 00:26:05,877 --> 00:26:06,237 Yeah. 444 00:26:06,587 --> 00:26:07,187 Totally agree. 445 00:26:07,187 --> 00:26:13,208 And, um, what's so fascinating here about Bitcoin, Is that it's nothing 446 00:26:13,208 --> 00:26:16,248 but, uh, an agreement to disagree. 447 00:26:16,348 --> 00:26:19,338 Like, that is what Bitcoiners do. 448 00:26:19,348 --> 00:26:26,137 We agree to disagree, and because we know that it's, it's, uh, it's harder 449 00:26:26,137 --> 00:26:30,207 to, it's more expensive to try to cheat the system than to just follow the rules. 450 00:26:30,467 --> 00:26:36,203 And also, like, insanely fascinating that Bitcoin has sort of teared down 451 00:26:36,203 --> 00:26:38,943 that wall between money and language. 452 00:26:39,443 --> 00:26:44,133 It is the same thing now, it is just communication, like we, we, provably so, 453 00:26:44,133 --> 00:26:50,101 we can exchange goods and services for a, for a number, which we can hold in 454 00:26:50,101 --> 00:26:56,061 our heads and, uh, we don't need anything but that, it's just communication and 455 00:26:56,061 --> 00:26:59,621 all the computers involved are just an extension of our mind and all this, uh, 456 00:27:00,231 --> 00:27:05,176 mumbo jumbo, uh, About all the time, like how you are your Bitcoin, like 457 00:27:05,176 --> 00:27:06,996 there's a sense they are information. 458 00:27:06,996 --> 00:27:12,406 There's no nothing separating you yourself from your Bitcoin. 459 00:27:12,416 --> 00:27:12,866 Really? 460 00:27:13,236 --> 00:27:14,896 It's just an extension of your mind. 461 00:27:14,896 --> 00:27:16,466 It's it lives with within you. 462 00:27:16,466 --> 00:27:19,656 And I think that that is what makes it so. 463 00:27:20,626 --> 00:27:22,336 Obvious that it's communication. 464 00:27:22,416 --> 00:27:26,376 And if money is just communication, well, that changes everything. 465 00:27:26,476 --> 00:27:32,686 Like, so this whole notion that we're being robbed by inflation, 466 00:27:33,196 --> 00:27:39,046 is that really involuntary or did we put ourselves in that situation? 467 00:27:39,186 --> 00:27:43,406 Did we, did humanity like choose to trust these things? 468 00:27:43,496 --> 00:27:44,646 And was that a bad choice? 469 00:27:44,646 --> 00:27:47,999 Like how, how enforced were government? 470 00:27:49,749 --> 00:27:51,129 Issued currencies, really? 471 00:27:51,159 --> 00:27:54,459 And how much did we just fall for it, like, en masse? 472 00:27:54,841 --> 00:27:59,531 And back to the very, the importance of precise definitions here. 473 00:27:59,531 --> 00:28:05,291 I would say that, yeah, holding an inflationary currency or a 474 00:28:05,291 --> 00:28:09,721 fiat currency where you can have your purchasing power stolen. 475 00:28:10,051 --> 00:28:18,501 VIA inflation is voluntary, however, it is not consensual, uh, and Mr. 476 00:28:18,501 --> 00:28:21,351 Kinsella, I can thank him for taking me to task on this. 477 00:28:21,381 --> 00:28:25,001 I used to always talk about voluntary exchange, how important it is. 478 00:28:25,001 --> 00:28:29,581 He's like, well, actually the definition of all, like he's the 479 00:28:29,581 --> 00:28:31,401 example of the mugger, right? 480 00:28:31,401 --> 00:28:32,096 When you. 481 00:28:32,256 --> 00:28:36,636 Get mugged in the back alley, someone puts a gun to you and 482 00:28:36,636 --> 00:28:37,906 says, give me your wallet. 483 00:28:38,826 --> 00:28:42,776 Well, you voluntarily hand the mugger your wallet, right? 484 00:28:42,776 --> 00:28:46,716 You control your arm and decide, you know, the cost of me saying 485 00:28:46,716 --> 00:28:50,836 no to this guy is higher than the benefit of me giving up my wallet. 486 00:28:50,836 --> 00:28:53,236 So I'm going to hand him my wallet voluntarily. 487 00:28:54,036 --> 00:28:58,736 However, you're doing it under the threat of violence or coercion. 488 00:28:58,776 --> 00:28:59,606 So you're not. 489 00:28:59,966 --> 00:29:04,626 Surrendering your wallet consensually, although you are doing it voluntarily. 490 00:29:05,576 --> 00:29:09,206 An example of something that's involuntary would be a seizure 491 00:29:09,226 --> 00:29:10,446 or a heart attack, right? 492 00:29:10,446 --> 00:29:12,096 Something that you can't control. 493 00:29:12,306 --> 00:29:17,594 Just your biology just controls you basically in that situation. 494 00:29:17,604 --> 00:29:21,334 So when I look at central banking. 495 00:29:21,574 --> 00:29:27,574 You have a legal monopoly that preserves the currency counterfeiting, um, or 496 00:29:27,594 --> 00:29:31,574 arrogates the currency counterfeiting privilege to one group of shareholders 497 00:29:31,954 --> 00:29:34,574 and allows them to externalize that onto everyone else, right? 498 00:29:34,574 --> 00:29:37,404 The guns are pointed out, as I always like to say. 499 00:29:37,954 --> 00:29:39,254 They're protecting the future. 500 00:29:39,444 --> 00:29:42,324 Uh, central bank currency counterfeiting monopoly, but the guns are pointed 501 00:29:42,334 --> 00:29:45,464 out such that everyone else is effectively forced to use it. 502 00:29:46,332 --> 00:29:50,302 now, again, you're not forced, like, again, it's still voluntary. 503 00:29:50,342 --> 00:29:54,842 We could all just choose to have used physical gold all this time and said, no, 504 00:29:54,842 --> 00:29:56,312 we're never going to use your paper money. 505 00:29:56,895 --> 00:30:00,125 but obviously, as a means of practicality, that doesn't work. 506 00:30:00,835 --> 00:30:03,685 It's hard to buy coffee with gold, right? 507 00:30:03,685 --> 00:30:06,415 It's hard to move gold around safely. 508 00:30:06,425 --> 00:30:07,225 There's all these. 509 00:30:08,180 --> 00:30:14,170 Problems with using gold for day to day transactions, um, in a way that's 510 00:30:14,260 --> 00:30:16,460 not, that's not centrally custodied. 511 00:30:17,370 --> 00:30:17,920 So, 512 00:30:17,950 --> 00:30:19,730 any other commodity for that matter. 513 00:30:20,030 --> 00:30:20,950 yes, exactly. 514 00:30:21,030 --> 00:30:25,270 So to answer the question, it's like, yes, holding an 515 00:30:25,270 --> 00:30:27,590 inflationary currency is voluntary. 516 00:30:27,600 --> 00:30:28,940 You're doing it voluntarily. 517 00:30:29,320 --> 00:30:32,900 You could sell all your dollars and buy physical gold and put it in your backyard. 518 00:30:33,260 --> 00:30:35,260 Now with Bitcoin, it's even easier, right? 519 00:30:35,280 --> 00:30:36,780 You can just hold Bitcoin. 520 00:30:37,266 --> 00:30:39,486 so every time you do choose to. 521 00:30:39,816 --> 00:30:45,106 Trade something, $4 or hold dollars in an account, you're doing that voluntarily, 522 00:30:45,856 --> 00:30:50,356 but your purchasing power nonetheless, is being stolen from you non consensually, 523 00:30:51,096 --> 00:30:55,476 and that you're participating, even though you've voluntarily put yourself into this 524 00:30:55,686 --> 00:31:02,156 legal monopoly, you're not voting for, uh, the counterfeiting of currency, right? 525 00:31:02,156 --> 00:31:03,836 You're not, you're not supporting it. 526 00:31:03,836 --> 00:31:05,246 You're not approving it. 527 00:31:05,916 --> 00:31:06,576 You're not really. 528 00:31:06,976 --> 00:31:09,156 I guess you could argue you're opting into it if you have the 529 00:31:09,156 --> 00:31:12,546 right level of understanding, but most people clearly don't. 530 00:31:13,388 --> 00:31:18,068 and that level of general level of understanding is intentionally kept low. 531 00:31:18,698 --> 00:31:22,488 I always like to talk about, I have a master's degree in 532 00:31:22,488 --> 00:31:23,738 accounting and finance, right? 533 00:31:23,738 --> 00:31:28,378 You would think I would know something from my mainstream education about central 534 00:31:28,378 --> 00:31:30,058 banking, about the nature of money. 535 00:31:30,608 --> 00:31:31,328 Something, right? 536 00:31:31,328 --> 00:31:33,858 It's literally just the language of business. 537 00:31:34,419 --> 00:31:37,229 everything we learn is about how money moves in and out of 538 00:31:37,229 --> 00:31:39,889 businesses, how taxation works. 539 00:31:39,919 --> 00:31:46,889 My focus was in taxation, yet there was not one single line of education given to 540 00:31:46,889 --> 00:31:51,449 me about Austrian economics, the nature of money, no talk about central banking, 541 00:31:52,279 --> 00:31:56,449 uh, no talk about the trade offs and opportunity costs that governments exist. 542 00:31:56,979 --> 00:32:02,199 And bureaucracies and central banks face, you know, they're just treated as these. 543 00:32:03,309 --> 00:32:05,499 organizations inside of the textbooks, right? 544 00:32:05,519 --> 00:32:08,489 The government just puts new currency into circulation and takes 545 00:32:08,489 --> 00:32:09,899 new currency out of circulation. 546 00:32:10,039 --> 00:32:14,429 Like you don't, there's a black box there that the education system doesn't go into. 547 00:32:15,049 --> 00:32:23,239 So it's pretty clear that, um, the existing paradigm seeks to protect 548 00:32:23,239 --> 00:32:29,079 itself intellectually by not going into the nature of money, where it comes 549 00:32:29,079 --> 00:32:31,139 from, Austrian economics, et cetera. 550 00:32:32,109 --> 00:32:36,569 Um, so, yes, it is voluntary, but not consensual. 551 00:32:38,169 --> 00:32:41,779 Yeah, funny, funny you should give that answer because I, I, uh, I love 552 00:32:41,779 --> 00:32:45,389 the Kinsella series you did, the series you did with Stefan Kinsella. 553 00:32:45,849 --> 00:32:51,019 Uh, and it influenced why I nowadays call myself a consensualist 554 00:32:51,109 --> 00:32:52,389 rather than a voluntarist. 555 00:32:53,229 --> 00:32:54,849 I mean, I think I went from... 556 00:32:55,214 --> 00:33:02,574 Libertarian leaning to anarcho capitalist, which is sort of too aggressive, and then 557 00:33:02,624 --> 00:33:07,955 voluntarist and now consensualist because I think consensualist frames it better. 558 00:33:08,015 --> 00:33:11,885 Like, I'd like as many interactions between human beings 559 00:33:11,885 --> 00:33:13,765 to be consensual as possible. 560 00:33:14,055 --> 00:33:20,656 Like, that should be the The guiding principle for your opinion on 561 00:33:20,756 --> 00:33:23,026 everything else, like if you have that. 562 00:33:23,515 --> 00:33:26,695 It's like the apex of human rationality, right? 563 00:33:26,695 --> 00:33:30,395 It's like, of course, you want to respect that we're all rational 564 00:33:30,405 --> 00:33:33,255 beings and we're all capable of deciding for ourselves, so we don't 565 00:33:33,265 --> 00:33:35,865 need to be coerced into doing things. 566 00:33:36,825 --> 00:33:43,785 And I think this notion is pretty obvious if you look at the dating market, right? 567 00:33:45,445 --> 00:33:49,905 Now, there have been arranged marriages, there still are arranged marriages, 568 00:33:49,905 --> 00:33:53,465 there still is some degree of pressure, perhaps in some cultures, to put people 569 00:33:53,465 --> 00:33:55,935 into certain, uh, marital arrangements. 570 00:33:56,745 --> 00:34:00,975 But in general, I think the moral intuitions in the West are that we 571 00:34:01,105 --> 00:34:03,115 should all be free to choose our own. 572 00:34:03,310 --> 00:34:04,150 partner, right? 573 00:34:04,200 --> 00:34:08,080 Or, or partners would date whoever we want, marry whoever we 574 00:34:08,080 --> 00:34:09,580 want, if we want to get married. 575 00:34:10,347 --> 00:34:14,317 it would be pretty hard to sell the idea of having a non 576 00:34:14,317 --> 00:34:16,077 consensual dating market, right? 577 00:34:16,157 --> 00:34:21,457 Where someone gets to coerce you into being, uh, their boyfriend or girlfriend. 578 00:34:22,532 --> 00:34:26,092 And you know, another way that I've framed this, and it's not always very 579 00:34:26,092 --> 00:34:32,832 popular, but the difference between a job and slavery is consent, right? 580 00:34:32,832 --> 00:34:36,412 You can quit the job, you can say no, and you can go get another job. 581 00:34:36,892 --> 00:34:40,752 If you're a physical slave in the traditional sense, well, you 582 00:34:40,752 --> 00:34:42,612 can't, there's no opt out, right? 583 00:34:42,612 --> 00:34:45,572 You're, you are enslaved against your consent. 584 00:34:46,432 --> 00:34:50,982 Uh, the difference between a financial transaction and 585 00:34:51,112 --> 00:34:54,252 taxation or theft is Consent. 586 00:34:55,052 --> 00:34:58,652 If I can say no to the transaction, take my business elsewhere, as 587 00:34:58,652 --> 00:35:00,802 can you, then we're, it's good. 588 00:35:00,802 --> 00:35:04,432 We're all consensual, but if I refuse the transaction and there's 589 00:35:04,452 --> 00:35:07,632 a threat of coercion, well, then that's the same situation I'm in 590 00:35:07,642 --> 00:35:09,052 with a mugger in the alley, right? 591 00:35:09,082 --> 00:35:11,782 I don't want to give you my wallet for free. 592 00:35:11,822 --> 00:35:13,462 It's like, okay, well, then I'll shoot you. 593 00:35:13,612 --> 00:35:13,882 Right? 594 00:35:13,882 --> 00:35:16,272 So that's obviously theft we wouldn't call it a transaction ai 595 00:35:22,237 --> 00:35:24,117 Getting mugged or getting robbed. 596 00:35:25,027 --> 00:35:29,087 And in terms of the dating market, you know, the difference between 597 00:35:29,437 --> 00:35:33,007 sex and rape is consent, right? 598 00:35:33,037 --> 00:35:37,407 Both parties need to be willing, able, and consenting to have a 599 00:35:37,457 --> 00:35:40,747 normal sexual engagement between two. 600 00:35:41,082 --> 00:35:45,752 Uh, willing adults, if that's absent on either side, right, if 601 00:35:45,752 --> 00:35:48,632 there's either party that wants to say no but they're forced into it, 602 00:35:48,642 --> 00:35:50,252 well, then we would call that rape. 603 00:35:50,912 --> 00:35:54,842 So, you know, consent is very, very, very important and I think we 604 00:35:54,842 --> 00:35:56,782 should strive to universalize it. 605 00:35:56,912 --> 00:36:01,902 I mean, it's the only way, it's the only rational way to deal with the 606 00:36:01,942 --> 00:36:06,092 reality that we are all rational beings and capable of choosing for ourselves. 607 00:36:07,205 --> 00:36:11,795 Yeah, this once again reminds me of Hoppe's argumentation ethics, which 608 00:36:11,795 --> 00:36:17,720 basically say that if you have to If you argue with someone, you have to 609 00:36:17,720 --> 00:36:21,410 respect their property rights, because property rights are derived from the 610 00:36:21,410 --> 00:36:23,250 fact that you own your own faculties. 611 00:36:23,650 --> 00:36:27,510 If you don't accept that, that you're using your tongue and your vocal cords 612 00:36:27,510 --> 00:36:32,340 and your lungs and so on to talk to, so that you're in possession of them and 613 00:36:32,340 --> 00:36:37,090 you own them, if you don't respect that in the other person, uh, so, so if you 614 00:36:37,140 --> 00:36:43,660 argue about something, the ownership of something, or, uh, who's the rightful 615 00:36:43,660 --> 00:36:46,050 owner of something, and the conclusion... 616 00:36:46,725 --> 00:36:52,665 And you discard the conclusion and then choose to, to take instead. 617 00:36:52,715 --> 00:36:57,235 So like if you argue about taxes with a taxman, for instance, and the taxman 618 00:36:58,035 --> 00:37:04,365 agrees with you about everything you say, but then still chooses to, to, uh, to 619 00:37:04,375 --> 00:37:09,520 force you to pay the taxes, it's That's when the argument turns into mockery. 620 00:37:10,110 --> 00:37:13,310 Like, it's not an argument anymore, it's just, he's just a bully. 621 00:37:14,380 --> 00:37:19,770 So it's not, the argument ceases to be, argumentation ceases to be 622 00:37:19,770 --> 00:37:24,840 argumentation once property rights are violated in any way, shape, or form. 623 00:37:26,270 --> 00:37:30,740 On this notion, like the thing you said about consent, like, I love another 624 00:37:30,740 --> 00:37:34,780 series of yours that I highly recommend is the Hillebrand series with our 625 00:37:34,780 --> 00:37:39,410 friend Max Hillebrand, where you talk about the books, the Rothbard book, 626 00:37:39,780 --> 00:37:44,410 The Ethics of Liberty, which is one of my favorite Austrian economics books, 627 00:37:44,660 --> 00:37:46,114 that one, and Max Hillebrand's books. 628 00:37:46,565 --> 00:37:50,445 Hoppus, um, which is another recommendation from Max, by 629 00:37:50,445 --> 00:37:55,245 the way, the, the, um, economic science and the Austrian method. 630 00:37:55,245 --> 00:37:55,695 I think it's 631 00:37:55,730 --> 00:37:56,265 the title. 632 00:37:56,265 --> 00:38:02,345 It's, uh, yeah, it's, it's not a very click baity title, but, uh, 633 00:38:02,355 --> 00:38:04,455 but it's a great, very dense book. 634 00:38:04,455 --> 00:38:09,434 And those two books, I think they, they, uh, they frame this so well, uh, and. 635 00:38:10,235 --> 00:38:12,735 Just about the things you've been talking about here about 636 00:38:12,905 --> 00:38:14,735 consent and how important it 637 00:38:15,102 --> 00:38:17,582 I have a, I actually have some stuff to say about that book. 638 00:38:18,072 --> 00:38:21,892 Um, I, that's a really, really, really good book. 639 00:38:22,332 --> 00:38:23,982 Hoppe's got a lot of good stuff. 640 00:38:25,182 --> 00:38:27,932 Very unsexy title, as you said, Economic Science and the 641 00:38:27,932 --> 00:38:30,292 Austrian Method, ESAM for short. 642 00:38:30,932 --> 00:38:36,612 very short book, but like most of Hoppe's writing, very dense, very informative. 643 00:38:37,416 --> 00:38:40,496 I, I was blown away actually that he. 644 00:38:41,176 --> 00:38:45,482 One of the points that I took away from that book was that he's saying that, 645 00:38:45,482 --> 00:38:50,752 like, the, the mind matter split, right, the, the Cartesian split that we all 646 00:38:51,072 --> 00:38:55,032 sort of inherited when, when Descartes said, I think, therefore, I am, as if 647 00:38:55,032 --> 00:38:57,562 there's two fundamental realities, right? 648 00:38:57,562 --> 00:39:01,902 There's the subjective thinking mind, and then there is the objective world. 649 00:39:02,535 --> 00:39:04,945 Hoppe makes this point that it's actually... 650 00:39:05,245 --> 00:39:11,015 That perhaps, actually, this distinction between mind and matter, or between 651 00:39:11,015 --> 00:39:17,555 subject and object, is a subcategory of human action, because it is only 652 00:39:17,575 --> 00:39:21,755 through human action where mind and matter come together, right? 653 00:39:22,515 --> 00:39:25,755 It's almost like we're using this distinction is like an 654 00:39:25,765 --> 00:39:29,776 artificial distinction that's useful in many ways, right? 655 00:39:29,776 --> 00:39:31,086 We could say all value is the 656 00:39:35,146 --> 00:39:41,076 mind rather than a matter of the world, but somehow action is like above that. 657 00:39:41,106 --> 00:39:46,116 Even action is the thing that allows subject and object duality to even 658 00:39:46,116 --> 00:39:51,611 come into existence where many of us, I think Western materialist worldview 659 00:39:51,641 --> 00:39:55,191 takes subject object reality to be the most fundamental thing there is, right? 660 00:39:55,191 --> 00:39:58,861 That there is an actual split between mind and matter. 661 00:39:59,511 --> 00:40:03,421 Whereas in fact, it seems to be most things are continuous, right? 662 00:40:03,741 --> 00:40:07,881 I don't know that there's an actual, out there, discrete 663 00:40:08,191 --> 00:40:09,551 split between mind and matter. 664 00:40:09,551 --> 00:40:11,741 So that, that blew my mind. 665 00:40:11,925 --> 00:40:16,085 again, just the, the primacy of human action and how it's... 666 00:40:16,675 --> 00:40:17,455 It's everywhere. 667 00:40:17,455 --> 00:40:22,515 And I think that again, ties nicely back into that book, Leela, where Persig 668 00:40:22,515 --> 00:40:26,805 saying it almost in a different way, that value is the ground stuff of reality. 669 00:40:26,805 --> 00:40:30,845 They're like, there's no substance, like value is the substance. 670 00:40:31,605 --> 00:40:32,225 And it's something 671 00:40:32,305 --> 00:40:36,045 Actually, would you mind giving us a TLDR on that book for anyone 672 00:40:36,045 --> 00:40:36,985 who's not familiar with it? 673 00:40:37,345 --> 00:40:38,615 TLDR on Leela. 674 00:40:38,645 --> 00:40:42,555 Um, yeah, I would mind because I don't know that that's actually possible. 675 00:40:43,247 --> 00:40:44,697 let me just say, so he's the. 676 00:40:45,477 --> 00:40:48,257 The author of Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance, which was the 677 00:40:48,257 --> 00:40:52,667 most popular or best selling philosophy book in the West, I think in the 678 00:40:52,667 --> 00:40:54,317 20th century, something like that. 679 00:40:54,777 --> 00:40:56,367 One of the best, maybe not the best. 680 00:40:57,187 --> 00:40:59,077 Uh, many people have read that one. 681 00:40:59,137 --> 00:41:00,967 Many people have heard of it, if they haven't read it. 682 00:41:01,577 --> 00:41:04,927 Almost no one's heard of or read the book he wrote 15 years later, 683 00:41:04,927 --> 00:41:06,797 which is Lila, which is much better. 684 00:41:07,637 --> 00:41:08,267 And Persig... 685 00:41:09,047 --> 00:41:11,147 Man, he's just like a next level genius. 686 00:41:11,147 --> 00:41:14,287 He blends fiction. 687 00:41:15,307 --> 00:41:19,337 So there's like a fictional story blended with some elements of autobiography. 688 00:41:19,337 --> 00:41:22,857 He's actually writing about himself and his life and some of his experiences 689 00:41:22,857 --> 00:41:24,417 blended into this fictional narrative. 690 00:41:24,917 --> 00:41:29,977 And then there's a non fictional, uh, philosophical exploration about the nature 691 00:41:29,977 --> 00:41:33,437 of metaphysics and, uh, value and quality. 692 00:41:33,767 --> 00:41:36,177 He distinguishes between dynamic and static. 693 00:41:36,597 --> 00:41:37,957 Value, et cetera. 694 00:41:40,767 --> 00:41:43,566 Um, the TLDR, I don't have a TLDR. 695 00:41:43,776 --> 00:41:47,946 He just gets into like all the things we're talking about. 696 00:41:47,946 --> 00:41:53,406 We're talking about the nature of value, the continuity between, you 697 00:41:53,406 --> 00:41:55,466 know, an organic and organic reality. 698 00:41:55,466 --> 00:41:59,486 Let's say he gives different levels of value is the inorganic layer. 699 00:42:00,274 --> 00:42:04,004 biological, social, and intellectual, there's different patterns of 700 00:42:04,004 --> 00:42:05,474 value that basically interact. 701 00:42:06,244 --> 00:42:12,514 He describes how these layers interact, sort of like a software system, um, 702 00:42:12,514 --> 00:42:16,874 and it gives rise to basically a whole metaphysical framework that he 703 00:42:16,874 --> 00:42:23,914 puts forth that stuff and substance is not real, value and morality is. 704 00:42:24,544 --> 00:42:29,204 So it's a, it's a very strong argument for the, the fundamental nature of, of. 705 00:42:29,919 --> 00:42:33,229 I guess you could say human action or value itself. 706 00:42:33,919 --> 00:42:38,849 And, um, again, the ESAM book just sort of dovetails nicely with that 707 00:42:38,849 --> 00:42:41,519 one, where it's like making the argument that human action is this. 708 00:42:43,109 --> 00:42:46,099 Has this primacy that most people don't understand. 709 00:42:46,099 --> 00:42:49,879 And again, if all action is an expression of value, then we're kind of dancing 710 00:42:49,879 --> 00:42:52,329 around the same topic here, right? 711 00:42:52,329 --> 00:42:56,839 When, when you hear many people invoke the word value is again, why I was 712 00:42:57,419 --> 00:43:00,709 hearkening to Peterson earlier, like, I'd love to hear his like deep definition. 713 00:43:01,159 --> 00:43:04,449 I don't see how you escape human action. 714 00:43:04,499 --> 00:43:07,129 Like it's the, to act is to value, right? 715 00:43:07,129 --> 00:43:08,649 To, to express one's value. 716 00:43:09,739 --> 00:43:10,519 And so. 717 00:43:12,214 --> 00:43:16,144 Yeah, that's, I guess that's what I would say about ESAM in general, and then I, 718 00:43:16,204 --> 00:43:21,684 just to circle back to something you said earlier, Knut, about the tax man, you 719 00:43:21,684 --> 00:43:26,474 know, you're, when you argue with someone, which was Hoppe's point, I think, you're 720 00:43:26,504 --> 00:43:33,584 implicitly acknowledging the reality of individual self ownership, right? 721 00:43:33,584 --> 00:43:37,304 You are using your faculties to try and put forth a point. 722 00:43:38,074 --> 00:43:40,754 You're listening to another person employ their faculties 723 00:43:40,774 --> 00:43:42,424 to put forth their counterpoint. 724 00:43:43,189 --> 00:43:46,679 And the only way that process can unfold is if, indeed, 725 00:43:46,689 --> 00:43:48,339 you both own yourself, right? 726 00:43:48,349 --> 00:43:52,199 Like, you, I own my faculties and I'm generating the points that I'm 727 00:43:52,199 --> 00:43:56,099 putting forth, you're assimilating that information, presumably, and 728 00:43:56,099 --> 00:43:58,189 generating your own counterpoint and putting those things forth. 729 00:43:58,369 --> 00:44:02,639 The only way we can do that is through this implicit acknowledgement of... 730 00:44:03,034 --> 00:44:05,614 Individuals owning themselves, individual self ownership. 731 00:44:06,494 --> 00:44:11,194 And once the tax man says, okay, enough of that, you know, even if he agrees 732 00:44:11,204 --> 00:44:14,684 with you, right, yes, we agree, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, but still 733 00:44:15,414 --> 00:44:22,414 pay me, right, pay the tax, you're actually dis acknowledging, if that's 734 00:44:22,414 --> 00:44:24,786 even a word, individual self ownership. 735 00:44:24,806 --> 00:44:26,736 Cause all of a sudden you're saying, well, that's all good. 736 00:44:26,736 --> 00:44:27,546 You own yourself. 737 00:44:27,546 --> 00:44:30,566 We had this argument, we reached a conclusion, but give me your 738 00:44:30,566 --> 00:44:31,616 stuff or I'm going to hurt you. 739 00:44:32,276 --> 00:44:37,366 Alright, so you're, you're, you're, you're actually, um, contradicting 740 00:44:38,656 --> 00:44:41,486 what argumentation confirms, right? 741 00:44:41,486 --> 00:44:43,526 You're disconfirming what argumentation confirms. 742 00:44:43,526 --> 00:44:45,996 Argumentation is confirming that individuals own themselves. 743 00:44:46,256 --> 00:44:50,306 When you result to coercion and violence, you're disconfirming that reality. 744 00:44:50,856 --> 00:44:52,356 And when you do that... 745 00:44:52,626 --> 00:44:57,006 I mean, you unwind the entire process of human civilization, 746 00:44:57,006 --> 00:44:59,116 rational discourse, etc, etc. 747 00:44:59,636 --> 00:45:02,526 Because if people don't own themselves, and it's just a free for all, then 748 00:45:02,526 --> 00:45:03,886 we're back to might is right, right? 749 00:45:03,886 --> 00:45:04,946 Who's got the biggest stick? 750 00:45:05,656 --> 00:45:07,406 Uh, who can coerce who the hardest? 751 00:45:08,146 --> 00:45:13,731 I think in Atlas Shrugged, There's a line, uh, she said, when force becomes the 752 00:45:13,731 --> 00:45:20,611 standard by which men interact, then the, the pickpocket loses out to the tyrant 753 00:45:20,691 --> 00:45:22,361 or the murderer, something like that. 754 00:45:22,711 --> 00:45:26,201 So the race becomes who is the most violent, right? 755 00:45:26,201 --> 00:45:29,631 Who can coerce and commit as much violence as possible. 756 00:45:29,941 --> 00:45:31,011 Well, guess what that happened? 757 00:45:31,031 --> 00:45:32,971 Guess what that does to the world? 758 00:45:33,351 --> 00:45:37,851 Guys, when you commence that race, civilizations vanish in 759 00:45:37,851 --> 00:45:42,301 a spread of slaughter and ruin, I think, as she wrote as well. 760 00:45:42,431 --> 00:45:45,491 So, it's hard to overstate how important... 761 00:45:46,246 --> 00:45:51,816 Rational discourse and respect for universal respect for individual 762 00:45:51,816 --> 00:45:54,996 life, liberty, and property is to the human enterprise. 763 00:45:55,813 --> 00:45:57,823 Okay, we have some big news. 764 00:45:58,193 --> 00:46:00,433 We have a new lead sponsor, AmberApp. 765 00:46:01,273 --> 00:46:03,873 They're the number one exchange in the Southern Hemisphere. 766 00:46:04,183 --> 00:46:07,083 They're rated for the best customer service around and 767 00:46:07,103 --> 00:46:08,823 their global launch is coming. 768 00:46:09,493 --> 00:46:14,003 But the reason we're partnering with AmberApp is because of the people. 769 00:46:14,533 --> 00:46:17,643 If you haven't listened to our episode with Izzy, CEO of AmberApp, 770 00:46:17,703 --> 00:46:19,503 you really should go check it out. 771 00:46:20,193 --> 00:46:24,083 You'll see why it made perfect sense to partner with Izzy and AmberApp. 772 00:46:24,453 --> 00:46:24,923 That's it. 773 00:46:25,143 --> 00:46:27,723 All I'll say for now, you really have to check it out for yourself. 774 00:46:28,333 --> 00:46:31,373 They have loads of great features coming that we're excited to share 775 00:46:31,373 --> 00:46:34,743 with you when the time comes, but for now, just check out the episode, 776 00:46:34,743 --> 00:46:36,133 check out their website, Ampr. 777 00:46:36,133 --> 00:46:36,413 app. 778 00:46:36,923 --> 00:46:39,809 You can see for yourself, why we're thrilled to bring Ampr. 779 00:46:39,809 --> 00:46:41,749 app on as our lead sponsor and partner. 780 00:46:42,179 --> 00:46:42,919 So go check it out. 781 00:46:43,659 --> 00:46:45,228 Next up WasabiWallet. 782 00:46:45,468 --> 00:46:48,918 The privacy by default, open source, non custodial Bitcoin 783 00:46:48,918 --> 00:46:50,628 wallet with CoinJoin built in. 784 00:46:51,208 --> 00:46:55,198 It's the easy to use, comprehensive, affordable way to make your coins private. 785 00:46:55,763 --> 00:46:58,773 And the best part is, they've been making huge improvements to the app. 786 00:46:59,083 --> 00:47:02,033 They're really focusing on the user experience, adding advanced 787 00:47:02,143 --> 00:47:04,693 features for power users, they just keep getting better. 788 00:47:05,213 --> 00:47:08,693 You send your coins to your Wasabi wallet, and they get combined with loads of 789 00:47:08,693 --> 00:47:12,813 other coins using the Wabi Sabi protocol, so they're private on the other end. 790 00:47:13,353 --> 00:47:16,863 Your tracks are covered so you can work on expanding your Freedom Footprint 791 00:47:17,013 --> 00:47:18,693 without worrying about your privacy. 792 00:47:19,573 --> 00:47:20,483 So, check out wasabiwallet. 793 00:47:20,483 --> 00:47:23,653 io and download Wasabi today. 794 00:47:23,993 --> 00:47:31,083 Yeah, and on that note, I mean what what happens is that when when you 795 00:47:31,083 --> 00:47:37,995 have this class of people that that are able to Coerce and use force 796 00:47:38,035 --> 00:47:40,325 to extract stuff from other people. 797 00:47:40,415 --> 00:47:46,595 Uh, that's why you get clown world because the race becomes to, to, you know, 798 00:47:46,815 --> 00:47:49,235 look good to these people so that you. 799 00:47:49,665 --> 00:47:52,345 They will pay you or they will hurt you less. 800 00:47:52,748 --> 00:47:59,778 and so, so I think, uh, what Bitcoin did, like, was, uh, just turn that 801 00:47:59,778 --> 00:48:03,138 upside down and, and like give property rights back to the people. 802 00:48:03,448 --> 00:48:06,518 So in that sense, I think Bitcoin is one divided by Clown World. 803 00:48:06,518 --> 00:48:09,968 It's the literal inverse of, of Clown World incentives. 804 00:48:10,688 --> 00:48:12,148 And I find that, that, yeah. 805 00:48:12,663 --> 00:48:13,843 That's my next equation. 806 00:48:13,843 --> 00:48:15,673 I need to put that somewhere. 807 00:48:15,863 --> 00:48:17,983 Bitcoin is one divided by Clown World. 808 00:48:18,333 --> 00:48:23,483 Um, so, so on, um, back to Rothbard and Hoppe because I love them so 809 00:48:23,483 --> 00:48:26,923 much, uh, and, and also, uh, Ayn Rand. 810 00:48:26,943 --> 00:48:30,473 But congrats on that beautiful little video clip you did from, 811 00:48:30,633 --> 00:48:33,603 from that section about money in the book, by the way, it was beautiful. 812 00:48:33,883 --> 00:48:36,103 Oh, I take no credit for that. 813 00:48:36,123 --> 00:48:38,353 My editor is a genius. 814 00:48:38,393 --> 00:48:38,733 I just 815 00:48:39,618 --> 00:48:40,528 Yes, he is. 816 00:48:40,623 --> 00:48:42,573 it to him and he makes it beautiful. 817 00:48:43,080 --> 00:48:47,920 okay, okay, okay, anyway, uh, what was, uh, where was I going with this? 818 00:48:47,920 --> 00:48:51,740 Yeah, uh, about ownership, uh, versus possession, because I think 819 00:48:51,740 --> 00:48:57,130 this is, uh, on the same line of, You know, argumentation and mockery, 820 00:48:57,130 --> 00:49:02,860 it's, it's adjacent, like ownership is like a legal, uh, relationship 821 00:49:02,920 --> 00:49:05,480 with, with a, a thing, right? 822 00:49:05,750 --> 00:49:10,440 Because like, you can own a thing, but someone else may possess it, like 823 00:49:10,470 --> 00:49:16,890 the, the gold that is legally belongs to African countries in some central 824 00:49:16,900 --> 00:49:21,330 banks in the West, but the West refuses to give it back or whatever, like, 825 00:49:22,330 --> 00:49:25,853 but Bitcoin, What is owning a bitcoin? 826 00:49:25,903 --> 00:49:28,573 Like, can you even own a bitcoin? 827 00:49:28,653 --> 00:49:29,813 Can you possess it? 828 00:49:29,913 --> 00:49:31,893 Or is it just keeping a secret? 829 00:49:31,893 --> 00:49:36,553 Like, are we on an even deeper level of ownership than, than possession? 830 00:49:36,573 --> 00:49:40,203 Like, is this even, even more robust? 831 00:49:40,468 --> 00:49:44,348 Uh, like, what's, what's your thoughts on that? 832 00:49:44,428 --> 00:49:46,918 Because that's something that's been, you know, tickling my 833 00:49:46,918 --> 00:49:48,058 mind for a long time now. 834 00:49:48,718 --> 00:49:49,028 Yeah. 835 00:49:49,028 --> 00:49:50,818 It's very, very mysterious. 836 00:49:50,858 --> 00:49:54,958 Um, I think it was you, someone that coined. 837 00:49:55,798 --> 00:49:56,768 The whole phrase, right? 838 00:49:56,778 --> 00:50:01,386 Like to with Bitcoin owning and is now knowing, knowing and 839 00:50:01,716 --> 00:50:03,586 Yeah, yeah, knowing is owning. 840 00:50:04,086 --> 00:50:04,456 Yep. 841 00:50:05,701 --> 00:50:08,291 but again, I would credit Kinsella here. 842 00:50:08,771 --> 00:50:10,711 I used to think, Oh yeah, that totally makes sense. 843 00:50:10,711 --> 00:50:16,301 But he's like, well, actually you have to, you've got to, uh, decompose this 844 00:50:16,301 --> 00:50:21,861 terminology a little bit because ownership is actually a legal, a legally, um, 845 00:50:21,861 --> 00:50:25,571 enforceable claim on an asset, right? 846 00:50:25,571 --> 00:50:26,241 On a scarce. 847 00:50:27,261 --> 00:50:31,291 Uh, scarce asset, such that you can exclude others from its use. 848 00:50:32,181 --> 00:50:36,271 you could say ownership is like recourse to the legal apparatus of 849 00:50:36,271 --> 00:50:38,901 coercion to resolve a dispute, right? 850 00:50:38,901 --> 00:50:42,781 If someone steals your car, well, you might not be in possession 851 00:50:42,781 --> 00:50:46,151 of your car after they steal it, but you still own it, right? 852 00:50:46,151 --> 00:50:52,011 You have the title or whatever it may be, and so you can bring to bear force, right? 853 00:50:52,031 --> 00:50:53,871 Legally to get it back, right? 854 00:50:53,881 --> 00:50:55,991 They can pull the guy over and arrest him and... 855 00:50:56,576 --> 00:50:58,276 Take the car and give it back to you. 856 00:50:59,467 --> 00:51:03,667 And that's fundamentally different from possession, which in a strict sense 857 00:51:03,667 --> 00:51:06,407 is just physical custody, effectively. 858 00:51:07,401 --> 00:51:12,151 and so Bitcoin, what can you own Bitcoin? 859 00:51:12,711 --> 00:51:18,341 You know, I, I guess you, it sort of has a foot in both worlds in a 860 00:51:18,341 --> 00:51:22,251 way, because a judge could pass. 861 00:51:23,551 --> 00:51:25,041 A judge could make a judgment, right? 862 00:51:25,041 --> 00:51:28,891 And say, Hey, this Bitcoin belongs, this Bitcoin that's in possession 863 00:51:28,911 --> 00:51:32,731 of Robert belongs to Knut, right? 864 00:51:32,981 --> 00:51:35,131 Knut is the rightful owner of this Bitcoin. 865 00:51:35,161 --> 00:51:41,221 But if I'm in possession of the keys, um, that's, it's hard to enforce that, right? 866 00:51:41,221 --> 00:51:45,871 I can also have all this plausible deniability like, Oh, sorry, judge 867 00:51:45,871 --> 00:51:47,041 had the boating accident, right? 868 00:51:47,041 --> 00:51:48,401 You know, it's, it's all gone now. 869 00:51:49,971 --> 00:51:57,591 So I guess in a strict legal sense, you can own Bitcoin and that a legal 870 00:51:58,891 --> 00:52:05,121 apparatus can tell you, like, who is the rightful owner of a specific private key. 871 00:52:05,959 --> 00:52:09,499 I don't, again, I don't, I'm not saying that this is being done, but, 872 00:52:09,649 --> 00:52:12,869 um, it, it can be done, I guess. 873 00:52:13,309 --> 00:52:20,459 But to possess Bitcoin is something entirely different, right, to actually 874 00:52:20,549 --> 00:52:25,607 have the private key, and even then you don't really have, you don't, you 875 00:52:25,607 --> 00:52:31,567 don't physically custody a piece of material reality, right, you've got an 876 00:52:31,577 --> 00:52:37,467 alphanumeric string, you've just got, uh, information, right, which as you're 877 00:52:37,467 --> 00:52:40,587 saying is like something like keeping a secret, and yeah, it's a great point, 878 00:52:40,597 --> 00:52:45,292 it's not, it's If, if, if possession meant physical custody, then you never 879 00:52:45,292 --> 00:52:47,522 really physically custody Bitcoin. 880 00:52:47,542 --> 00:52:54,932 You're just guarding that secret, which allows you to unlock, the, the ability 881 00:52:54,932 --> 00:52:57,892 to spend from that UTXO set, right? 882 00:52:57,912 --> 00:53:01,612 So it's, it's different somehow. 883 00:53:02,021 --> 00:53:05,511 and I guess in that sense, it's kind of like just guarding a. 884 00:53:08,576 --> 00:53:09,066 Secret. 885 00:53:09,176 --> 00:53:11,236 I, I, yeah, I guess that's the best way to put it. 886 00:53:11,576 --> 00:53:13,086 And so no, can you own it? 887 00:53:13,436 --> 00:53:16,846 Yes, technically, but the ownership is largely unenforceable. 888 00:53:16,846 --> 00:53:17,946 I think in most cases. 889 00:53:18,936 --> 00:53:19,836 Can you possess it? 890 00:53:19,836 --> 00:53:22,686 Not really, because you can't physically possess the thing. 891 00:53:22,686 --> 00:53:24,046 It's just informational. 892 00:53:24,376 --> 00:53:25,746 So what can you do with it? 893 00:53:25,926 --> 00:53:31,186 Uh, you can keep your private key guarded and secret and use it to 894 00:53:31,186 --> 00:53:32,766 the extent that you can do that. 895 00:53:33,318 --> 00:53:35,348 Yeah, because I think we need a whole... 896 00:53:35,488 --> 00:53:42,618 A whole plethora of new laws around this, uh, if, if, or, or no laws at 897 00:53:42,618 --> 00:53:46,948 all, because like the, the, the current legal framework in different countries 898 00:53:46,948 --> 00:53:50,448 have different approaches to it, and they try to enforce like old words, 899 00:53:50,618 --> 00:53:52,928 world stuff onto this new thing. 900 00:53:53,508 --> 00:53:54,908 But, but, but. 901 00:53:55,308 --> 00:54:01,048 Even proving that someone is in possession of a Bitcoin is, is impossible. 902 00:54:01,108 --> 00:54:04,098 Because how do you prove that someone knows something? 903 00:54:04,688 --> 00:54:06,768 Like, uh, you can't. 904 00:54:06,828 --> 00:54:12,518 And, and like, uh, it's kind of vulgar that they, those, these chain anal 905 00:54:12,558 --> 00:54:14,618 companies that, that try to do that. 906 00:54:14,618 --> 00:54:19,758 And they try to set, you know, legal precedents for, uh, for this stuff. 907 00:54:20,058 --> 00:54:26,598 When, when it, you, you, not only can you not prove that someone is in possession 908 00:54:26,598 --> 00:54:32,478 of it, you cannot prove that someone else isn't like you can guess the key. 909 00:54:32,798 --> 00:54:35,958 I mean, it's the, the chances of you guessing the right 910 00:54:35,958 --> 00:54:37,508 key are astronomically small. 911 00:54:37,508 --> 00:54:40,908 And that's why, that's why we trust this thing to, to the extent that we 912 00:54:40,908 --> 00:54:47,039 do, but at the end of the day, there's no real way to prove that someone has. 913 00:54:47,154 --> 00:54:48,604 knowledge about something. 914 00:54:48,904 --> 00:54:52,974 And it's only when you put, when you put this like on a computer, on a 915 00:54:52,984 --> 00:54:57,234 hardware wallet, or, uh, you know, on a steel plate, then you turn it into 916 00:54:57,234 --> 00:55:00,804 a physical thing because then the letters are engraved in that thing. 917 00:55:01,374 --> 00:55:07,004 Uh, and then it becomes physical, but it doesn't have to be physical. 918 00:55:07,004 --> 00:55:11,609 And this is I find this so insanely fascinating because, like, you can think 919 00:55:11,609 --> 00:55:15,919 of all sorts of situations where this, where this becomes problematic, like 920 00:55:15,929 --> 00:55:20,849 if you have, um, if you fly with your 12 words, for instance, and you get 921 00:55:20,849 --> 00:55:24,429 stopped in the security check, what's stopping the security officer from 922 00:55:24,429 --> 00:55:27,469 just, you know, copying those words? 923 00:55:30,314 --> 00:55:36,554 Or, uh, which is a whole new, uh, there's a whole slew of new problems 924 00:55:36,554 --> 00:55:40,914 there that come with, come with this notion of, of, uh, keeping 925 00:55:40,914 --> 00:55:42,434 a secret or not keeping a secret. 926 00:55:42,434 --> 00:55:44,774 And, and, uh, the, the thing. 927 00:55:46,114 --> 00:55:50,954 The thing it does, it invokes responsibility in people, because once 928 00:55:50,954 --> 00:55:55,814 you dive down in this rabbit hole, you realize that you have to keep the 929 00:55:55,814 --> 00:56:02,664 secret, and you have to figure out for yourself what the best way for you of 930 00:56:02,664 --> 00:56:08,664 keeping the secret is, because there's no universal answer to how to keep a secret. 931 00:56:09,414 --> 00:56:15,814 And so, uh, yeah, there's so much to unpack there because now I'm ranting 932 00:56:15,814 --> 00:56:21,344 on here, I know, but if, if it's just keeping a secret, they're a part of you 933 00:56:22,104 --> 00:56:27,684 and that's, so, and how, how big a part of you is up to you because it's opt 934 00:56:27,684 --> 00:56:30,864 in, so you can, you can have a hundred percent of your wealth in Bitcoin, 935 00:56:31,174 --> 00:56:36,124 or you can have 1%, but how much you have in Bitcoin in comparison to how 936 00:56:36,124 --> 00:56:38,174 much you live in the, uh, clown world. 937 00:56:39,100 --> 00:56:43,070 you, you have a tool now where, where you can choose to opt out to 938 00:56:43,070 --> 00:56:47,300 a specific percentage of your being. 939 00:56:47,420 --> 00:56:52,270 Like this, 60% of me can never be coerced into anything. 940 00:56:52,540 --> 00:56:53,950 Like, I can, I can do that. 941 00:56:53,950 --> 00:56:56,140 Literally, I can say, uh, okay. 942 00:56:56,350 --> 00:57:00,940 I, I can put up with some coercion to just to, you know, have a police force and 943 00:57:01,510 --> 00:57:02,980 , you know, a fire brigade and whatnot. 944 00:57:03,430 --> 00:57:07,875 But, uh, I think I'm fine with just paying, uh, 15 percent taxes. 945 00:57:08,685 --> 00:57:09,775 I'll opt out of the rest. 946 00:57:09,785 --> 00:57:10,175 Thank you. 947 00:57:10,395 --> 00:57:11,585 And you can just do that. 948 00:57:12,235 --> 00:57:13,925 And that's true for everyone in the world. 949 00:57:14,760 --> 00:57:19,280 I find it so insanely fascinating and how the question becomes, 950 00:57:19,800 --> 00:57:22,880 how, how far off into the future? 951 00:57:24,500 --> 00:57:27,750 I mean, how long will it take before everyone realizes that 952 00:57:27,750 --> 00:57:29,570 this is, this is already true? 953 00:57:30,344 --> 00:57:32,964 Well, that's a great question. 954 00:57:32,984 --> 00:57:39,304 Um, you know, I think always answering questions about timing is very important. 955 00:57:40,549 --> 00:57:45,339 I'm sorry, very difficult, obviously very important, but very, very difficult to 956 00:57:45,389 --> 00:57:47,429 say when something is going to happen. 957 00:57:48,584 --> 00:57:49,804 Yeah, it's a stupid question. 958 00:57:49,804 --> 00:57:50,104 I know. 959 00:57:50,104 --> 00:57:50,704 I mean, 960 00:57:51,224 --> 00:57:52,234 That's not stupid. 961 00:57:52,314 --> 00:57:53,164 It's very important. 962 00:57:53,234 --> 00:57:53,424 All right. 963 00:57:53,424 --> 00:57:55,914 It's like, well, when would be very useful to know, but I 964 00:57:55,914 --> 00:57:59,614 think it's equally, incredibly difficult to answer that question. 965 00:58:00,334 --> 00:58:05,284 So, uh, a couple of things, just to like things you said there, right? 966 00:58:05,284 --> 00:58:09,684 It's astronomically difficult to guess someone's private key. 967 00:58:10,674 --> 00:58:14,614 Correct me if I'm wrong here, but I think the right term might even be 968 00:58:14,614 --> 00:58:18,034 it's, it's like beyond astronomically. 969 00:58:18,569 --> 00:58:21,149 Small the chances of actually guessing someone's private key. 970 00:58:22,244 --> 00:58:23,974 it's like the more, what is it? 971 00:58:24,004 --> 00:58:27,994 The chances like if you made a guess every second, you would need longer 972 00:58:27,994 --> 00:58:30,024 than the life of the universe, right? 973 00:58:30,054 --> 00:58:31,624 To guess someone's private key. 974 00:58:31,624 --> 00:58:32,394 So it's actually 975 00:58:32,789 --> 00:58:33,489 on average. 976 00:58:34,324 --> 00:58:34,944 small. 977 00:58:35,439 --> 00:58:36,119 Yeah. 978 00:58:37,309 --> 00:58:41,359 Yeah, so, so infinitesimal that we obviously trust it as if it's 979 00:58:41,359 --> 00:58:44,779 not even possible, effectively, to guess someone's private key. 980 00:58:45,522 --> 00:58:50,532 and then the other like aspect I would introduce is it sounds 981 00:58:50,532 --> 00:58:53,692 like, especially people that don't understand Bitcoin, like, oh my 982 00:58:53,692 --> 00:58:55,312 God, that's a lot of responsibility. 983 00:58:55,312 --> 00:58:56,232 That's scary. 984 00:58:56,232 --> 00:58:58,002 I'm going to carry this secret in my head. 985 00:58:58,002 --> 00:59:02,072 And like, what if I get knocked out or if I get amnesia or someone 986 00:59:02,082 --> 00:59:03,502 tortures me to get the key? 987 00:59:03,502 --> 00:59:04,652 You know, all of these things. 988 00:59:05,732 --> 00:59:07,022 It's not a binary, right? 989 00:59:07,022 --> 00:59:07,422 It's not. 990 00:59:07,662 --> 00:59:11,192 You either trust someone else with your private key, or you hold your 991 00:59:11,192 --> 00:59:12,712 private key between your ears. 992 00:59:12,972 --> 00:59:15,812 There's all these other possible custody schemas. 993 00:59:16,642 --> 00:59:21,572 Um, you know, I think multi key or multi sig is obviously very important here. 994 00:59:21,602 --> 00:59:26,622 You can take that secret, chop it into pieces, into mini secrets, if you will, 995 00:59:26,652 --> 00:59:31,292 and distribute that among different people inside of your circle of trust. 996 00:59:32,142 --> 00:59:35,972 And then you need a certain quorum of those mini secrets to unlock. 997 00:59:36,297 --> 00:59:38,217 Spending ability, right? 998 00:59:38,217 --> 00:59:39,727 A 3 of 5, etc. 999 00:59:39,727 --> 00:59:41,617 So there's ways to like de risk it. 1000 00:59:42,229 --> 00:59:46,669 you know, even take, even ratcheting down the responsibility to some degree that 1001 00:59:46,669 --> 00:59:50,939 you'd still have a lot of responsibility to keep up with 1 of 5, but if you 1002 00:59:50,939 --> 00:59:52,679 lose it, it's not the end of the world. 1003 00:59:52,699 --> 00:59:56,529 Whereas if it's a 1 of 1, well, it is the end of that world, at 1004 00:59:56,529 --> 00:59:58,339 least if you lose your private key. 1005 00:59:59,035 --> 01:00:01,075 And also that gives you some resistance against just the 1006 01:00:01,075 --> 01:00:03,445 whole, against coercion, right? 1007 01:00:03,445 --> 01:00:07,405 Against 5 wrenches or the guy stopping you in the airport, you know, trying to 1008 01:00:07,415 --> 01:00:09,965 copy your, your seed phrase or whatever. 1009 01:00:10,485 --> 01:00:13,445 You're not subject to a single point of failure. 1010 01:00:14,185 --> 01:00:16,735 So I always think that's a very important point when we talk about 1011 01:00:16,745 --> 01:00:21,825 these topics because people get scared when they hear, What do you mean? 1012 01:00:22,285 --> 01:00:24,685 I have to memorize my whole life's worth and if I forget 1013 01:00:24,685 --> 01:00:27,515 or mess up, I'm, it's over? 1014 01:00:27,555 --> 01:00:29,965 And so, important. 1015 01:00:30,155 --> 01:00:33,275 can have all, all sorts of solutions at the same time. 1016 01:00:33,275 --> 01:00:37,845 You can have a multi sig, you can have a single sig hardware wallet and a custodial 1017 01:00:37,845 --> 01:00:42,235 phone wallet for different, different solutions for different purposes, right? 1018 01:00:42,765 --> 01:00:46,695 So, uh, yeah, and I, I think that we need to educate people more 1019 01:00:46,695 --> 01:00:48,775 about that, that aspect of it, that. 1020 01:00:49,385 --> 01:00:54,565 Bitcoin can be extremely simple to use, but then they're somewhat at 1021 01:00:54,565 --> 01:01:02,245 risk, and they can be hard, it can be hard to set up a really, you know, 1022 01:01:02,835 --> 01:01:09,425 theft proof solution, but On the other hand, they're, they're probably, they 1023 01:01:09,425 --> 01:01:11,225 will probably there be there forever. 1024 01:01:12,033 --> 01:01:16,063 Yeah, so it's like, you know, you put a few dollars in your pocket to go out 1025 01:01:16,063 --> 01:01:20,593 at night, you know, that might be your equivalent to your hot wallet, right? 1026 01:01:20,603 --> 01:01:23,093 You might have a few more, if you're traveling, you might have 1027 01:01:23,093 --> 01:01:27,093 a few more dollars hidden inside your suitcase somewhere, right? 1028 01:01:27,093 --> 01:01:30,673 This is kind of like your, uh, little account you'll draw from as you're 1029 01:01:30,673 --> 01:01:34,173 traveling, you'll swap US dollars for local currency or whatever it may be, 1030 01:01:34,773 --> 01:01:39,928 that's kind of like, uh, Maybe like a non custodial wallet, something like that. 1031 01:01:40,718 --> 01:01:45,378 And then, you know, you're the vast majority of your wealth for most 1032 01:01:45,428 --> 01:01:50,368 people, anyone that has, uh, any amount of wealth, you know, like well over 1033 01:01:50,368 --> 01:01:56,208 90%, you'd probably keep in a deep cold storage multi sig device, right? 1034 01:01:56,208 --> 01:02:01,328 And that would be equivalent to, I don't know, uh, A bank account for most people, 1035 01:02:01,328 --> 01:02:04,508 which is not actually a good solution because there's counterparty risk there, 1036 01:02:05,168 --> 01:02:09,088 uh, might be equivalent to gold in a vault or gold buried in the ground for others. 1037 01:02:10,078 --> 01:02:14,208 But yeah, it's just to reinforce your point, it, it, you don't 1038 01:02:14,208 --> 01:02:15,628 need one solution, right? 1039 01:02:15,888 --> 01:02:18,888 You can have different solutions for different use cases and you can 1040 01:02:19,548 --> 01:02:21,888 rebalance and reallocate as needed. 1041 01:02:22,816 --> 01:02:24,636 your earlier question, though, like when... 1042 01:02:25,841 --> 01:02:31,551 When the people realize this, um, you've probably heard me say this 1043 01:02:31,561 --> 01:02:35,691 before, cause I say it all the time, but I just don't think most people move 1044 01:02:35,721 --> 01:02:39,121 until they feel sufficient pain, right? 1045 01:02:40,541 --> 01:02:44,941 There's not a lot of nerds in the world that want to sit here and spend all 1046 01:02:44,941 --> 01:02:50,001 this time going down the Bitcoin rabbit hole that are curious enough, that are 1047 01:02:50,021 --> 01:02:56,270 intelligent enough, patient enough, To, to really try and learn all these lessons, 1048 01:02:56,270 --> 01:03:00,000 right, or try to understand computer science and economics and incentives 1049 01:03:00,000 --> 01:03:06,330 and, you know, all the different, uh, disciplines that Bitcoin touches or that 1050 01:03:06,330 --> 01:03:10,210 you touch going down the Bitcoin rabbit hole, I don't think a lot of people have 1051 01:03:10,250 --> 01:03:12,655 the patience or wherewithal to pursue. 1052 01:03:12,995 --> 01:03:17,785 Go into that to, to get the Bitcoin, Bitcoin, orange pill epiphany. 1053 01:03:18,855 --> 01:03:26,125 But what most people do have is a tacit experience of pain, right? 1054 01:03:26,125 --> 01:03:30,225 Like if their bank account is frozen or they can't get their capital out 1055 01:03:30,225 --> 01:03:36,515 of a country or their currency is hyperinflating or they're a rich guy and. 1056 01:03:37,110 --> 01:03:41,180 You know, living in Russia and Putin's going to seize their company or seize 1057 01:03:41,180 --> 01:03:46,550 their yacht or otherwise redistribute their wealth forcibly, well, that starts 1058 01:03:46,600 --> 01:03:51,130 to really give people the light bulb moments like, Oh shit, okay, my stuff 1059 01:03:51,140 --> 01:03:55,170 is getting taken or my currency is failing or whatever situation I'm being 1060 01:03:55,170 --> 01:03:58,940 subjected to under this duress, right? 1061 01:03:58,940 --> 01:04:03,980 This actual pain, painful experience I'm living through kind of forces people 1062 01:04:03,980 --> 01:04:05,680 to start evaluating their options. 1063 01:04:05,750 --> 01:04:07,170 And as we've. 1064 01:04:07,765 --> 01:04:15,275 Discussed and laid out, there seems to be only really one viable option for an asset 1065 01:04:15,315 --> 01:04:20,685 that cannot be forcibly taken from you, um, assuming you've custody it properly. 1066 01:04:20,695 --> 01:04:24,615 So, I think, unfortunately, we have to go through more pain. 1067 01:04:24,625 --> 01:04:28,355 We have to go through more hyperinflations, more forced 1068 01:04:28,365 --> 01:04:34,554 asset seizures, more statism, before we see Bitcoin really 1069 01:04:34,554 --> 01:04:36,394 start to shine in the eyes of. 1070 01:04:37,184 --> 01:04:37,874 the majority 1071 01:04:38,426 --> 01:04:42,056 just to play the devil's advocate here for a while, um, if I were to make a 1072 01:04:42,056 --> 01:04:46,776 counter argument to that, that would be places like Lebanon or Argentina 1073 01:04:46,776 --> 01:04:51,156 or Zimbabwe, where Venezuela, where hyperinflation is a real thing. 1074 01:04:51,696 --> 01:04:59,451 I mean, Bitcoin adoption exists there, but it's not big, like, uh, so, and 1075 01:04:59,451 --> 01:05:03,521 that might be because these countries started to hyperinflate way before 1076 01:05:03,801 --> 01:05:05,581 people knew about Bitcoin at all. 1077 01:05:06,479 --> 01:05:13,299 Can we, can we trust that pain will turn people into hyperbitcoinization mode? 1078 01:05:13,379 --> 01:05:17,989 Like it's, it's hard to formulate this question, but 1079 01:05:18,129 --> 01:05:19,809 just curious about your thoughts. 1080 01:05:20,093 --> 01:05:24,733 Well, I mean, the other thing is we have to keep in mind where we are in 1081 01:05:24,733 --> 01:05:28,203 Bitcoin's monetization process, right? 1082 01:05:28,253 --> 01:05:28,483 Like 1083 01:05:29,795 --> 01:05:33,325 Bitcoin will not be purchasing power stable in the short 1084 01:05:33,325 --> 01:05:35,935 run for a long time, right? 1085 01:05:35,935 --> 01:05:39,925 It's just, just too small of a market cap at this point. 1086 01:05:40,535 --> 01:05:44,955 Maybe when it's in the tens of trillions of dollars in market cap, it's, it's short 1087 01:05:44,955 --> 01:05:47,405 term purchasing power will be more stable. 1088 01:05:48,115 --> 01:05:49,605 And that really tends to be what. 1089 01:05:49,900 --> 01:05:53,890 People are looking for, particularly in hyperinflations, right, they want 1090 01:05:53,890 --> 01:05:58,190 to get out of the purchasing power unstable currency, the currency that's 1091 01:05:58,330 --> 01:06:01,820 plummeting in purchasing power day over day, week over week, and they 1092 01:06:01,820 --> 01:06:02,585 want to get into a week over week. 1093 01:06:02,915 --> 01:06:07,935 Short term purchasing power stable currency that tends to be the U. 1094 01:06:07,935 --> 01:06:08,065 S. 1095 01:06:08,065 --> 01:06:08,835 dollar, right? 1096 01:06:08,835 --> 01:06:11,555 When Zimbabwe hyperinflates, people want to get into dollars. 1097 01:06:12,005 --> 01:06:17,455 So the pain, I'm not saying it's like you feel the pain once and then all of 1098 01:06:17,455 --> 01:06:20,285 a sudden you're like orange pilled and you're all in on Bitcoin, but if you 1099 01:06:20,285 --> 01:06:25,215 could imagine going further into the future, sure, currencies that hyperinflate 1100 01:06:25,215 --> 01:06:27,275 today, maybe they want to dollarize. 1101 01:06:28,135 --> 01:06:31,535 Um, and I would expect this to, this pattern to continue to play out, 1102 01:06:31,535 --> 01:06:36,815 actually, as weaker currencies fail, you would see more of these economies or 1103 01:06:36,815 --> 01:06:40,295 individuals in those economies looking to move their savings into dollars, 1104 01:06:41,035 --> 01:06:46,125 um, just, again, as a means of gaining short term purchasing power stability. 1105 01:06:46,965 --> 01:06:48,105 But what happens when the U. 1106 01:06:48,105 --> 01:06:48,375 S. 1107 01:06:48,375 --> 01:06:52,515 dollar, which is also being counterfeited rampantly, you know, I 1108 01:06:52,545 --> 01:06:54,345 think we've increased the supply of U. 1109 01:06:54,345 --> 01:06:54,455 S. 1110 01:06:54,455 --> 01:06:54,855 dollars. 1111 01:06:55,275 --> 01:07:00,305 To the tune of 50 percent or more in the past three years, I, I, the 1112 01:07:00,305 --> 01:07:03,825 number 50 to 60%, I think of the numbers that I've heard over the past 1113 01:07:03,930 --> 01:07:10,840 The best, the best number I've seen there is in 2021, 21 million 1114 01:07:11,210 --> 01:07:12,980 were printed per Bitcoin mined. 1115 01:07:13,965 --> 01:07:19,695 So 7 trillion, like, uh, divided by the number of bitcoins printed. 1116 01:07:19,735 --> 01:07:20,105 Right. 1117 01:07:20,175 --> 01:07:22,075 And so that was in one year. 1118 01:07:22,355 --> 01:07:23,605 And that was when the U. 1119 01:07:23,605 --> 01:07:23,845 S. 1120 01:07:25,230 --> 01:07:30,630 What M2 is probably in the neighborhood of, I don't know, 15 to 18, 20 1121 01:07:31,460 --> 01:07:32,770 trillion, something like that. 1122 01:07:32,770 --> 01:07:34,530 I'm actually not sure, but 1123 01:07:35,125 --> 01:07:36,815 7 trillion were printed. 1124 01:07:36,845 --> 01:07:41,005 I mean, it's kind of hard to define because M2 and M1, they're 1125 01:07:41,005 --> 01:07:43,085 sort of diffuse terms, right? 1126 01:07:43,245 --> 01:07:45,795 It's not the money in circulation, really. 1127 01:07:46,295 --> 01:07:48,695 So it's kind of hard to describe it. 1128 01:07:49,116 --> 01:07:55,326 what I wanted to get at is, is that it's a, call it a 50 percent increase 1129 01:07:55,376 --> 01:07:57,811 in the money supply, whatever your. 1130 01:07:58,011 --> 01:08:01,251 Gauge you're using and someone can check my math, but I think roughly over the 1131 01:08:01,251 --> 01:08:02,771 past three years, we've expanded U. 1132 01:08:02,771 --> 01:08:02,891 S. 1133 01:08:02,891 --> 01:08:06,471 dollar supply 50%, 5 0 or more. 1134 01:08:07,341 --> 01:08:12,011 So, all these other countries that are dollarizing and um, you know, 1135 01:08:12,011 --> 01:08:14,371 people would say, oh, this bullish dollar, this dollar is going to 1136 01:08:14,371 --> 01:08:15,631 last forever, blah, blah, blah. 1137 01:08:15,631 --> 01:08:16,321 It's like, okay. 1138 01:08:16,861 --> 01:08:17,851 Well, what is the U. 1139 01:08:17,851 --> 01:08:17,961 S. 1140 01:08:17,961 --> 01:08:18,401 dollar? 1141 01:08:19,121 --> 01:08:19,291 U. 1142 01:08:19,291 --> 01:08:19,411 S. 1143 01:08:19,411 --> 01:08:22,181 dollar is just the best of the worst, right? 1144 01:08:22,181 --> 01:08:24,521 It's just another fiat currency that weaker fiat 1145 01:08:24,741 --> 01:08:26,311 currencies are collapsing into. 1146 01:08:27,001 --> 01:08:31,061 So what happens, and when you study the nature of fiat currencies, I think 1147 01:08:31,061 --> 01:08:35,381 you'll quickly determine that they really only head one direction, right? 1148 01:08:36,041 --> 01:08:38,801 There are massive incentives to counterfeit them into 1149 01:08:38,861 --> 01:08:40,211 worthlessness over time. 1150 01:08:40,871 --> 01:08:43,021 So the big question becomes what happens when... 1151 01:08:44,196 --> 01:08:46,296 Major currencies or even the U. 1152 01:08:46,296 --> 01:08:46,476 S. 1153 01:08:46,476 --> 01:08:48,346 dollar start to hyperinflate. 1154 01:08:48,726 --> 01:08:50,136 Where do people run then? 1155 01:08:50,146 --> 01:08:51,666 You can't dollarize out of a U. 1156 01:08:51,666 --> 01:08:51,836 S. 1157 01:08:51,856 --> 01:08:54,726 dollar denominated hyperinflation. 1158 01:08:55,166 --> 01:08:56,246 So what do you do then? 1159 01:08:57,051 --> 01:09:00,981 that's where I think the pain, the real pain that's going to wake 1160 01:09:00,981 --> 01:09:03,401 people up uh, is going to come. 1161 01:09:03,401 --> 01:09:09,381 And a lot of people will say, You know, uh, Santiago capital, Brett Johnson. 1162 01:09:10,321 --> 01:09:12,261 He will just tell you this never going to happen. 1163 01:09:12,261 --> 01:09:14,061 The U S dollar is going to last forever. 1164 01:09:14,071 --> 01:09:16,591 We're just such a bad ass imperialist country. 1165 01:09:16,591 --> 01:09:20,371 There's no way we'll ever let the dollar fall and blah, blah, blah. 1166 01:09:21,061 --> 01:09:22,791 Um, I just don't buy it. 1167 01:09:23,011 --> 01:09:24,131 I just simply don't buy it. 1168 01:09:24,131 --> 01:09:25,861 I think human beings follow incentives. 1169 01:09:26,191 --> 01:09:31,391 The incentives of having a U S dollar fiat currency as a central 1170 01:09:31,401 --> 01:09:35,281 bank is to just keep producing it and using it to extract wealth. 1171 01:09:36,151 --> 01:09:40,391 Um, that ultimately leads to the debasement of the currency and 1172 01:09:40,391 --> 01:09:43,891 eventually hyper debasement or hyper inflation of the currency. 1173 01:09:44,711 --> 01:09:48,801 And I think there's also major incentives for foreign counterparties 1174 01:09:48,841 --> 01:09:50,461 to dump dollars over time. 1175 01:09:50,501 --> 01:09:53,631 And we already see the BRICS countries, right? 1176 01:09:53,781 --> 01:09:57,270 Uh, Brazil, Russia, India, China, South Africa. 1177 01:09:57,496 --> 01:10:01,826 talking about launching a currency that's orthogonal to the U S dollar, right. 1178 01:10:01,826 --> 01:10:04,606 And, and commodity based and all of these things. 1179 01:10:04,976 --> 01:10:10,206 So we've already moved from this kind of unipolar dollar world to much more of 1180 01:10:10,206 --> 01:10:13,276 a multipolar world with especially the. 1181 01:10:13,566 --> 01:10:18,876 The beginning of the Russia Ukraine conflict, I would expect that to continue. 1182 01:10:19,516 --> 01:10:22,416 All of that results in diminishing demand for the U. 1183 01:10:22,416 --> 01:10:22,546 S. 1184 01:10:22,546 --> 01:10:25,166 dollar, which is going to mean more dollar printing. 1185 01:10:25,756 --> 01:10:28,916 and I, you know, I think we see U. 1186 01:10:28,916 --> 01:10:29,026 S. 1187 01:10:29,026 --> 01:10:30,096 dollar hyperinflation. 1188 01:10:30,146 --> 01:10:34,836 Now, again, timing, very scary to talk about here, but I already put out a 1189 01:10:34,836 --> 01:10:36,946 public prediction, so I'll stick with it. 1190 01:10:37,636 --> 01:10:42,136 I think by the year 2035, we see the US dollar going into hyperinflation. 1191 01:10:43,456 --> 01:10:46,606 And so the big question for me is like, what then? 1192 01:10:46,786 --> 01:10:50,406 What, what do you dollarize into at that point, right? 1193 01:10:50,406 --> 01:10:54,336 There's, there's no, you've, you've used up all the options in 1194 01:10:54,336 --> 01:10:55,796 the fiat currency stack, right? 1195 01:10:55,796 --> 01:11:00,246 You've been scurrying up the liquidity hierarchy to the most liquid fiat currency 1196 01:11:00,246 --> 01:11:02,636 to escape your local hyperinflation. 1197 01:11:02,636 --> 01:11:06,736 Well, what happens when the point of escape becomes the point of failure? 1198 01:11:07,626 --> 01:11:08,696 Where do people go then? 1199 01:11:10,376 --> 01:11:12,816 Well, take the orange pill now or be forced to take the 1200 01:11:12,816 --> 01:11:14,346 orange suppository later. 1201 01:11:14,506 --> 01:11:14,706 That's 1202 01:11:15,336 --> 01:11:15,896 That's right. 1203 01:11:15,976 --> 01:11:19,656 Yeah, you could take the orange pill orally now, or it'll be forced 1204 01:11:19,656 --> 01:11:22,026 as a suppository later, perhaps. 1205 01:11:22,096 --> 01:11:22,836 exactly. 1206 01:11:23,041 --> 01:11:26,461 The show is also sponsored by, Orange Pill app, the Bitcoin social layer 1207 01:11:26,481 --> 01:11:29,971 app for iOS and Android where you can stack friends who stack sats. 1208 01:11:30,601 --> 01:11:33,481 You can connect with your favorite Bitcoiners on the app, make local 1209 01:11:33,481 --> 01:11:36,481 connections, and even connect with Bitcoiners around the world. 1210 01:11:37,011 --> 01:11:39,041 And a big feature on OrangePill app is events. 1211 01:11:39,571 --> 01:11:42,961 You can see what's going on in your area and connect with Bitcoiners around you. 1212 01:11:43,441 --> 01:11:45,861 I've been to multiple OrangePill app events and they brought 1213 01:11:45,861 --> 01:11:47,761 Bitcoiners together from all over. 1214 01:11:48,381 --> 01:11:51,381 The best part is you know it's high signal, there's no spam on OrangePill 1215 01:11:51,801 --> 01:11:53,441 app because everyone pays to be there. 1216 01:11:53,511 --> 01:11:54,931 It's just 3 a month. 1217 01:11:55,411 --> 01:11:58,411 So download OrangePill app on Apple or Android and get connected 1218 01:11:58,411 --> 01:11:59,871 to the Bitcoin social layer. 1219 01:12:00,091 --> 01:12:01,691 Next up, The Bitcoin Way. 1220 01:12:02,221 --> 01:12:05,531 Their mission is to onboard, educate, and remove barriers to 1221 01:12:05,531 --> 01:12:07,141 taking self custody of your bitcoin. 1222 01:12:07,691 --> 01:12:12,001 They cover everything from cold wallets to nodes, no KYC bitcoin purchases, 1223 01:12:12,051 --> 01:12:14,481 inheritance planning, payments, and more. 1224 01:12:15,011 --> 01:12:17,821 Whether you're new to bitcoin or you're an experienced bitcoiner looking to 1225 01:12:17,831 --> 01:12:21,701 expand your freedom footprint, Or you know someone who this sounds perfect for? 1226 01:12:22,061 --> 01:12:23,981 The Bitcoin Way has something for you. 1227 01:12:24,621 --> 01:12:28,141 They have a skilled team, well versed in the Bitcoin space, and their goal is to 1228 01:12:28,141 --> 01:12:32,031 make all the complexities of Bitcoin as straightforward as possible for everyone. 1229 01:12:32,591 --> 01:12:35,091 And the best part is you can get started with a free 30 1230 01:12:35,091 --> 01:12:36,271 minute call with their team. 1231 01:12:36,791 --> 01:12:38,331 Go to thebitcoinway. 1232 01:12:38,351 --> 01:12:40,561 com slash contact for more info. 1233 01:12:41,162 --> 01:12:43,062 Our newest sponsor is Geyser. 1234 01:12:43,392 --> 01:12:46,282 They are the portal to the creator economy on Bitcoin. 1235 01:12:46,982 --> 01:12:50,702 On Geyser, creators can monetize their work through their communities 1236 01:12:50,732 --> 01:12:52,352 in a social and engaging way. 1237 01:12:52,732 --> 01:12:55,522 And supporters can send sats to their favorite projects. 1238 01:12:55,969 --> 01:12:59,269 Geyser has also recently integrated with Zapps and Podcasting 2. 1239 01:12:59,269 --> 01:12:59,729 0. 1240 01:13:00,079 --> 01:13:03,629 So every Zapp sent to a Geyser address shows up on the Geyser page. 1241 01:13:04,389 --> 01:13:05,849 We have a Geyser fund ourselves. 1242 01:13:05,859 --> 01:13:08,019 It's the best way to support our show directly with Bitcoin. 1243 01:13:09,029 --> 01:13:12,889 So whether you're a creator or a supporter, check out geyser at geyser. 1244 01:13:12,889 --> 01:13:13,789 fund today. 1245 01:13:14,137 --> 01:13:16,997 okay, let's, let's, let's just a weird thought. 1246 01:13:17,097 --> 01:13:21,967 Uh, I love to try to extrapolate the thought vectors as far off into 1247 01:13:21,967 --> 01:13:23,867 the future as possible as you know. 1248 01:13:23,897 --> 01:13:28,917 So, so we talked a bit about volatility and. 1249 01:13:29,692 --> 01:13:33,032 In your mind, does Bitcoin ever become stable? 1250 01:13:33,142 --> 01:13:38,552 Because imagine a hyperbitcoinized world where everything is priced in Bitcoin 1251 01:13:38,552 --> 01:13:40,292 and all the fiat currencies have died. 1252 01:13:41,012 --> 01:13:45,012 And you have, I mean, we're, us three dorks here, we're like the 1253 01:13:45,012 --> 01:13:46,352 first generation of Bitcoiners. 1254 01:13:47,512 --> 01:13:52,452 And people like us are going to lose a lot of Bitcoin along the way. 1255 01:13:52,472 --> 01:13:54,832 We're not going to be able to like... 1256 01:13:56,102 --> 01:14:01,402 Store them properly and so, so, so I think people are underestimating the SAT squeeze 1257 01:14:01,432 --> 01:14:06,432 because of just people losing their keys here in their boating accidents and so on. 1258 01:14:07,292 --> 01:14:12,602 So, so if that is the case and you get into this global sound money free 1259 01:14:12,602 --> 01:14:16,542 market with increased productivity everywhere and purchasing power go 1260 01:14:16,542 --> 01:14:23,372 up, like there's a point where like technology is adopted in an S curve, but. 1261 01:14:23,992 --> 01:14:27,862 I don't really ever see the top of this in necessarily in Bitcoin, 1262 01:14:27,872 --> 01:14:31,452 because what would be the top like when all the people are on board? 1263 01:14:31,522 --> 01:14:32,922 Well, there's still more money. 1264 01:14:33,312 --> 01:14:36,902 Well, when all the money is on board, well, there's still more productivity. 1265 01:14:37,312 --> 01:14:38,522 Like, does it ever end? 1266 01:14:38,552 --> 01:14:44,682 And combine that with more and more bitcoins lost, like, This thing is, you 1267 01:14:44,682 --> 01:14:50,972 know, it's the forever Laura thing, but the, the, the, the weirdness of the, the 1268 01:14:50,972 --> 01:14:53,702 rate of forever Laura ness, if you will. 1269 01:14:54,532 --> 01:14:56,512 Well, what, what are your thoughts on that? 1270 01:14:57,014 --> 01:14:58,234 Oh, man, this is great. 1271 01:14:58,734 --> 01:15:03,204 This is the infinity divided by 21 million, right? 1272 01:15:03,284 --> 01:15:05,114 It's like, where, where's the top? 1273 01:15:05,284 --> 01:15:07,314 Well, we just call it infinity, right? 1274 01:15:08,144 --> 01:15:08,744 So... 1275 01:15:09,444 --> 01:15:15,064 It's very interesting to me because what you have, you know, assuming the Bitcoin 1276 01:15:15,074 --> 01:15:23,314 thesis plays out is you have a guaranteed fraction, like to whatever degree money 1277 01:15:23,314 --> 01:15:30,504 is being demanded as, uh, to be held as savings, as cash balances, right? 1278 01:15:30,504 --> 01:15:36,044 It's going to be a reflection of the capital that's 1279 01:15:36,044 --> 01:15:37,734 available in the marketplace. 1280 01:15:38,982 --> 01:15:43,092 That capital is a reflection of how productive we actually are. 1281 01:15:43,982 --> 01:15:49,082 And, um, I actually just listened this morning to, uh, Guy Swan 1282 01:15:49,082 --> 01:15:52,922 read Alan Farrington's piece on the killer app of Bitcoin being. 1283 01:15:53,287 --> 01:15:55,287 It properly pricing capital. 1284 01:15:56,077 --> 01:15:57,757 And I thought that was really interesting. 1285 01:15:58,397 --> 01:16:02,747 Um, so Bitcoin is going to improve productivity a number of ways. 1286 01:16:02,757 --> 01:16:08,767 One, and this would be Hoppe's point in a theory of socialism and capitalism. 1287 01:16:09,947 --> 01:16:15,847 The degree to which private property is made less viable, which is to 1288 01:16:15,847 --> 01:16:20,557 say that theft is more expensive, difficult, or risky is the same degree 1289 01:16:20,557 --> 01:16:25,477 to which we are incentivizing people to produce rather than steal, right? 1290 01:16:25,487 --> 01:16:25,897 It's like. 1291 01:16:26,232 --> 01:16:30,442 There's two roads to wealth acquisition, I can make it or I can take it, 1292 01:16:31,142 --> 01:16:34,472 and if taking is very difficult, if stealing is very difficult, well 1293 01:16:34,472 --> 01:16:37,902 then I'm left with only the other option, which is making, right? 1294 01:16:38,602 --> 01:16:42,502 Creating things of value, trading with other people, consensually, etc. 1295 01:16:42,972 --> 01:16:45,912 We've already talked about how Bitcoin sort of tilts the scales 1296 01:16:45,912 --> 01:16:50,582 away from making and towards, away from taking and towards making, and 1297 01:16:50,582 --> 01:16:52,902 that because it's expensive to steal. 1298 01:16:53,752 --> 01:16:56,492 And if you start stealing people's stuff, right, if you start stealing my 1299 01:16:56,492 --> 01:16:59,352 yachts and houses and whatever, well then maybe I'll just start selling 1300 01:16:59,352 --> 01:17:03,092 everything else and putting it into Bitcoin and moving elsewhere where 1301 01:17:03,102 --> 01:17:06,512 the government doesn't steal my stuff or have stronger property rights. 1302 01:17:07,012 --> 01:17:12,442 So you get this self organizing dynamic in the world where people are going to be... 1303 01:17:12,652 --> 01:17:17,802 More likely to engage in consensual trade, long term trading relationships, 1304 01:17:18,492 --> 01:17:21,102 making in general, and less so in taking. 1305 01:17:22,652 --> 01:17:28,892 Now, Alan's point in his paper was interesting too, that we have a really 1306 01:17:28,892 --> 01:17:34,242 hard time pricing capital appropriately under the current fiat paradigm. 1307 01:17:34,512 --> 01:17:38,252 Um, and when you start to price... 1308 01:17:38,627 --> 01:17:42,517 Capital appropriately, you actually increase productivity that people 1309 01:17:42,517 --> 01:17:47,217 are actually able to figure out, you know, through a, a sound and 1310 01:17:47,217 --> 01:17:52,867 reliable price signal or profit signal, which uses of capital are 1311 01:17:52,867 --> 01:17:55,537 satisfying the most human wants, right? 1312 01:17:55,637 --> 01:18:00,147 You get a very clear signal about where that capital needs to go, whereas 1313 01:18:00,147 --> 01:18:05,467 in a fiat paradigm, you have more of this short termism, um, Just trying 1314 01:18:05,467 --> 01:18:08,907 to generate the quarterly profit, you know, long term results be damned. 1315 01:18:09,607 --> 01:18:13,387 So I think Bitcoin, you know, again, I only listened to this once today and I 1316 01:18:13,387 --> 01:18:19,907 can't expand upon it super intelligently, but to the extent that Bitcoin allows 1317 01:18:19,947 --> 01:18:24,647 the proper pricing of capital, I think it also increases human productivity. 1318 01:18:25,297 --> 01:18:30,587 And so all these expansions that Bitcoin's providing via its incentive system, To 1319 01:18:30,587 --> 01:18:35,377 human productivity are, interestingly enough, also accretive to the purchasing 1320 01:18:35,377 --> 01:18:38,467 power that Bitcoin represents over time. 1321 01:18:38,987 --> 01:18:43,687 So it's like, uh, you know, the, the Ouroboros, the snake eating its own tail. 1322 01:18:44,137 --> 01:18:45,637 This is like the inverse of that, right? 1323 01:18:45,637 --> 01:18:47,977 It's like the snake feeding its own mouth or something. 1324 01:18:47,977 --> 01:18:50,367 You know, Bitcoin's actually creating more human productivity 1325 01:18:50,367 --> 01:18:51,367 through these incentives. 1326 01:18:51,862 --> 01:18:55,582 And then just fattening the snake and the purchasing power that Bitcoin itself 1327 01:18:55,582 --> 01:18:57,552 is a reflection of as it monetizes. 1328 01:18:58,422 --> 01:19:00,102 So what is the top of that? 1329 01:19:00,102 --> 01:19:02,172 I mean, how can any of us possibly know? 1330 01:19:02,192 --> 01:19:05,922 It's like asking what is the pinnacle of human development, right? 1331 01:19:05,922 --> 01:19:08,342 What is, what's the final stage of human evolution? 1332 01:19:08,342 --> 01:19:09,452 How far are we going to get? 1333 01:19:09,472 --> 01:19:10,672 Are we going to the stars? 1334 01:19:10,672 --> 01:19:11,952 Are we going to other dimensions? 1335 01:19:12,747 --> 01:19:14,677 Where does human ingenuity hit a ceiling? 1336 01:19:14,747 --> 01:19:16,807 You know, it's like the equivalent question. 1337 01:19:16,907 --> 01:19:21,757 So I, I really have no, no clue, but it is certainly fun to think about. 1338 01:19:21,757 --> 01:19:26,137 And if you, and if you frame it that way, it's like, okay, to hold, 1339 01:19:26,147 --> 01:19:27,997 this is why Bitcoin is legacy. 1340 01:19:28,447 --> 01:19:29,677 I don't want to say it's wealth, right? 1341 01:19:29,677 --> 01:19:32,677 Money is not wealth necessarily, but it's, it's legacy. 1342 01:19:33,162 --> 01:19:41,612 Purchasing power preservation, because you hold a, a basically a claim on all 1343 01:19:41,622 --> 01:19:47,002 the successful entrepreneurial enterprises that have occurred and will ever occur 1344 01:19:47,412 --> 01:19:49,352 in human history for the rest of time. 1345 01:19:50,812 --> 01:19:54,887 And you can own, you know, one, one 21 millionth of that, or 10 21 1346 01:19:54,887 --> 01:19:58,152 millionths of that, or 121 millionths of that, whatever fraction you want. 1347 01:19:58,192 --> 01:20:00,782 And to your earlier point, obviously the. 1348 01:20:02,157 --> 01:20:04,297 The denominator is decreasing, right? 1349 01:20:04,297 --> 01:20:05,347 It's not 21 million. 1350 01:20:05,367 --> 01:20:06,657 What, how many coins are there really? 1351 01:20:06,657 --> 01:20:08,287 17, 15, whatever. 1352 01:20:08,937 --> 01:20:14,827 Um, so that's very, like, it's a very powerful framing for just how 1353 01:20:14,837 --> 01:20:17,457 legacy altering Bitcoin can be. 1354 01:20:18,852 --> 01:20:21,092 Everything there is and everything there ever will be 1355 01:20:21,092 --> 01:20:23,407 divided by That was, well, well, 1356 01:20:23,867 --> 01:20:24,767 At most, 21 1357 01:20:24,807 --> 01:20:25,547 21 million. 1358 01:20:27,197 --> 01:20:27,577 Yeah. 1359 01:20:28,248 --> 01:20:31,238 Rob, I absolutely love the conversations we have. 1360 01:20:31,268 --> 01:20:35,028 And I, I, uh, sincerely hope that we get to do more of them, uh, 1361 01:20:35,498 --> 01:20:37,378 preferably in person, but also online. 1362 01:20:37,378 --> 01:20:40,108 I mean, we just need to keep this conversation going. 1363 01:20:40,108 --> 01:20:42,018 I think that's, that's the way forward. 1364 01:20:42,478 --> 01:20:44,358 So thanks very much for coming on. 1365 01:20:44,388 --> 01:20:48,398 Um, Luke, do you have any final questions for Rob before we round this out? 1366 01:20:49,338 --> 01:20:55,198 Uh, well, I, yeah, I was just going to say that, uh, the last, yeah, I don't 1367 01:20:55,198 --> 01:21:00,738 know, hour or so here, very bullish, uh, enjoying the energy, um, to, 1368 01:21:00,738 --> 01:21:03,668 to be honest, I don't have anything specific, uh, anything else would 1369 01:21:03,678 --> 01:21:08,928 be into a rabbit hole, but, uh, I've appreciated your, uh, your time and, uh, 1370 01:21:09,068 --> 01:21:13,108 take on this, uh, any final thoughts, anything else on your mind these days? 1371 01:21:13,588 --> 01:21:13,828 what 1372 01:21:17,278 --> 01:21:20,728 Rob, sincerely, you should have Luke on and, uh, on your show 1373 01:21:20,728 --> 01:21:22,198 and talk about maps of meaning. 1374 01:21:22,608 --> 01:21:23,898 That's, um, that's my 1375 01:21:23,928 --> 01:21:24,388 I would love 1376 01:21:24,558 --> 01:21:24,978 for the day. 1377 01:21:25,658 --> 01:21:26,658 Yeah, I would love to. 1378 01:21:26,698 --> 01:21:28,758 Um, I would definitely love to. 1379 01:21:28,768 --> 01:21:31,288 So please feel free to like email me. 1380 01:21:31,298 --> 01:21:33,808 What we usually do is a conversation outline beforehand. 1381 01:21:34,678 --> 01:21:38,168 And then I'll just go through that and we can get a time to talk on the books. 1382 01:21:38,718 --> 01:21:42,708 Um, and yeah, Knut, thank you for having me. 1383 01:21:42,878 --> 01:21:43,508 Um. 1384 01:21:43,968 --> 01:21:45,908 Always enjoy our conversations. 1385 01:21:46,611 --> 01:21:51,111 I, you know, this it's mind bending still to me that it's just this, 1386 01:21:51,741 --> 01:21:55,601 just this monetary innovation, which is, I never thought it would 1387 01:21:55,611 --> 01:22:00,091 be such a philosophical rabbit hole in so many different directions. 1388 01:22:00,121 --> 01:22:05,351 And, um, I don't know, sometimes I catch myself like the things I'm reading about 1389 01:22:05,351 --> 01:22:09,141 or thinking about, I'm like, how did this all, how did Bitcoin lead to all this? 1390 01:22:09,971 --> 01:22:10,211 Yeah. 1391 01:22:10,401 --> 01:22:16,366 uh, I feel very grateful, but um, also maybe even overwhelmed at times is how 1392 01:22:16,366 --> 01:22:21,633 many different directions, Bitcoin takes the mind and so always really like, 1393 01:22:21,733 --> 01:22:24,683 really like talking to you because it seems like you're on a similar path and. 1394 01:22:25,153 --> 01:22:26,833 We always have fun things to talk about. 1395 01:22:27,488 --> 01:22:27,758 Right. 1396 01:22:27,758 --> 01:22:29,468 By catch you and, yeah. 1397 01:22:29,498 --> 01:22:30,368 Came for the Lambo. 1398 01:22:30,368 --> 01:22:31,658 Stayed for Zen, I 1399 01:22:31,855 --> 01:22:32,108 guess. 1400 01:22:32,763 --> 01:22:33,573 exactly. 1401 01:22:34,423 --> 01:22:35,013 Exactly. 1402 01:22:36,843 --> 01:22:39,293 Yep, I think I think that's a perfect way to end it on. 1403 01:22:39,293 --> 01:22:42,743 So thanks again, Rob, for joining us on the Freedom Footprint show. 1404 01:22:43,633 --> 01:22:44,133 Thank you guys. 1405 01:22:45,325 --> 01:22:45,585 Yeah. 1406 01:22:45,585 --> 01:22:49,115 Like, subscribe and brush your teeth and click the little bell for notifications 1407 01:22:49,145 --> 01:22:50,605 and follow Rob's channel as well. 1408 01:22:52,055 --> 01:22:55,547 Actually, did you want to do an official where you want to, where do you want to 1409 01:22:55,557 --> 01:22:56,157 to find you. 1410 01:22:56,817 --> 01:22:59,637 Uh, yeah, I, I'm whatismoneypodcast. 1411 01:22:59,677 --> 01:23:05,057 com, uh, or Twitter's my biggest social platform at breedlove22. 1412 01:23:06,211 --> 01:23:06,711 Perfect. 1413 01:23:07,151 --> 01:23:07,841 Thanks again. 1414 01:23:08,081 --> 01:23:09,321 This has been the Freedom Footprint show. 1415 01:23:10,350 --> 01:23:12,180 So what did you think of that episode with Robert? 1416 01:23:12,810 --> 01:23:15,940 I really enjoyed digging into Maps of Meaning with him and his explanation 1417 01:23:15,940 --> 01:23:18,830 of Leela has sent that book right to the top of my reading list. 1418 01:23:19,640 --> 01:23:20,710 What was your favorite moment? 1419 01:23:20,990 --> 01:23:21,610 Let us know. 1420 01:23:22,050 --> 01:23:25,140 You can send us a boostogram on Fountain, leave us a comment on YouTube, 1421 01:23:25,150 --> 01:23:27,200 or get in touch on Nostr or Twitter. 1422 01:23:27,940 --> 01:23:30,060 If you're watching on YouTube don't forget to like the episode 1423 01:23:30,060 --> 01:23:31,150 and subscribe to the channel. 1424 01:23:31,680 --> 01:23:35,530 Our show's sponsors are Amber App, Wasabi Wallet, Orange Pill 1425 01:23:35,530 --> 01:23:37,850 App, The Bitcoin Way, and Geyser. 1426 01:23:38,550 --> 01:23:42,850 Check out their details in the That's all for now, see you next 1427 01:23:42,860 --> 01:23:44,710 time, and thanks for listening.