June 3, 2024

Nostr Deep Dive with Miljan from Primal - FFS #111

Nostr Deep Dive with Miljan from Primal - FFS #111

Miljan from Primal joins the show to tell us all about the inner workings of Nostr! 
Key Takeaways:🔹Nostr is an open protocol for speech and publishing, allowing users to create cryptographic identities and communicate through relays.🔹The protocol is...

The player is loading ...
The Bitcoin Infinity Show

Miljan from Primal joins the show to tell us all about the inner workings of Nostr! 

Key Takeaways:
🔹Nostr is an open protocol for speech and publishing, allowing users to create cryptographic identities and communicate through relays.
🔹The protocol is simple, with key pairs for users, client apps for creating and signing messages, and relays for storing and retrieving messages.
🔹The value proposition of Nostr lies in its ability to provide content creators with ownership and control over their content and audience.
🔹Nostr enhances the Bitcoin ecosystem by enabling lightning payments and providing a global public lightning directory.
🔹The scalability of Nostr is being addressed through the use of relays and caching services.
🔹The future of Nostr is optimistic, with the potential to consume all apps with social graphs and create an unstoppable network of speech and money.

Connect with Miljan:
https://primal.net/miljan

Connect with Us:
https://www.freedomfootprintshow.com/
https://twitter.com/FootprintShow
https://primal.net/freedom
https://twitter.com/knutsvanholm
https://primal.net/knut
https://twitter.com/lukedewolf
https://primal.net/luke

Thanks to our sponsors - check out there websites for info:

BitBox: https://bitbox.swiss/freedom

Bitcoin Adviser: https://content.thebitcoinadviser.com/freedom

Orange Pill App: https://www.orangepillapp.com/

Support the Show:
If you value what we do here at the Freedom Footprint Show, consider sending us some value back. You can send us a boost or stream us some sats on Fountain. Check out https://www.fountain.fm/
You can support us directly with Bitcoin on Geyser Fund: https://geyser.fund/project/freedom/

The Freedom Footprint Show is a Bitcoin podcast hosted by Knut Svanholm and Luke de Wolf.

In each episode, we explore everything from deep philosophy to practical tools to emit freedom dioxide to expand your freedom footprint. This isn't a show for bitcoin news or analysis - we dig into the deep topics that are important to us and to our guests. Join us if you want to go deeper down the rabbit hole of Bitcoin and related freedom-go-up technologies and ideas!

The Freedom Footprint Show is a Bitcoin podcast hosted by Knut Svanholm and Luke de Wolf.

In each episode, we explore everything from deep philosophy to practical tools to emit freedom dioxide to expand your freedom footprint!

Chapters

00:00 - Introducing Miljan from Primal

02:45 - What Is Nostr?

14:11 - Incentives of Nostr

24:44 - Developing Primal

34:12 - Nostr Pain Points

40:00 - Ads!

43:15 - Nostr vs Legacy Social Media

53:07 - Bots and Impersonation

57:50 - Bitcoin and Nostr

01:08:43 - More Ads!

01:10:20 - Nostr and Centralization

01:14:39 - Outlook for Nostr

01:17:41 - Wrapping Up

Transcript
1
00:00:00,049 --> 00:00:03,296
Miljan, welcome to the Freedom
Footprint show, thanks for joining us.

2
00:00:03,583 --> 00:00:04,713
Hi guys, good to be here.

3
00:00:04,943 --> 00:00:06,303
Yeah, good to see you, Miljan.

4
00:00:06,363 --> 00:00:10,493
Uh, last time we met was on
Madeira, uh, on a rooftop.

5
00:00:10,633 --> 00:00:12,713
Uh, I think that's where
we first met, right?

6
00:00:13,050 --> 00:00:13,890
That's right.

7
00:00:14,349 --> 00:00:14,879
Yes.

8
00:00:14,909 --> 00:00:19,749
told me, you told me a very weird story,
which I'm kind of proud, proud of.

9
00:00:19,749 --> 00:00:21,999
It felt like an Achievement
Unlocked moment.

10
00:00:22,009 --> 00:00:24,199
Can you tell, tell our
listeners what that was?

11
00:00:24,916 --> 00:00:30,696
Oh, um, maybe it was, uh, when you
posted the, your full book as a

12
00:00:30,696 --> 00:00:35,456
short note, as a short Nostr note
and broke, uh, Primal and probably

13
00:00:35,456 --> 00:00:36,946
a few other clients as a part of it.

14
00:00:37,473 --> 00:00:42,023
Yeah, I broke Nostr, or we broke
Nostr because it was Luke's idea

15
00:00:42,023 --> 00:00:43,843
to, to post the entire book, so.

16
00:00:44,088 --> 00:00:47,048
It's a fun, fun experiment.

17
00:00:47,863 --> 00:00:48,833
worries at all.

18
00:00:48,903 --> 00:00:51,543
Uh, Nostr was already
broken before you did that.

19
00:00:51,633 --> 00:00:53,163
So, so no issues at all.

20
00:00:54,038 --> 00:00:54,838
Fantastic.

21
00:00:55,088 --> 00:00:56,378
No, it's great to have you here.

22
00:00:56,418 --> 00:01:01,208
Um, we are, as we, as we just said noobs.

23
00:01:01,488 --> 00:01:06,088
So we'd love to, to learn more
about Nostr and Primal specifically.

24
00:01:06,488 --> 00:01:09,588
But first of all, we'd like to
know a little more about you.

25
00:01:09,598 --> 00:01:10,218
Who are you?

26
00:01:10,258 --> 00:01:13,708
And can you give us the,
the TLDR on Millian?

27
00:01:14,290 --> 00:01:14,690
Sure.

28
00:01:14,740 --> 00:01:18,400
And just a quick note prior to
that, we are all Nostr noobs.

29
00:01:19,030 --> 00:01:22,800
Uh, all of us, even the developers,
and even the creator of the

30
00:01:22,800 --> 00:01:26,140
protocol, and those who have been
in it from the very beginning.

31
00:01:26,550 --> 00:01:30,070
We're all just kind of grappling
with this, we're all trying to

32
00:01:30,070 --> 00:01:32,380
come to terms with what Nostr is.

33
00:01:32,930 --> 00:01:38,340
I think it's going to take some time, it's
kind of evolving, so, uh, we're all noobs.

34
00:01:38,705 --> 00:01:40,075
It's all so early.

35
00:01:40,175 --> 00:01:43,675
We'll get into it in a bit more
detail, I'm sure, during the show.

36
00:01:44,085 --> 00:01:50,215
And it's quite magical to be a part of
this something, something that appears to

37
00:01:50,215 --> 00:01:52,565
be quite special at such an early stage.

38
00:01:53,085 --> 00:01:57,005
So happy to dive into all the
details with you guys, whatever

39
00:01:57,005 --> 00:01:58,035
you guys want to talk about.

40
00:01:58,495 --> 00:02:01,855
As for me, I'm a software entrepreneur.

41
00:02:01,925 --> 00:02:05,355
I've been building products and
companies since I was a teenager.

42
00:02:05,895 --> 00:02:10,215
I honestly lost count how many
products or companies I started.

43
00:02:11,265 --> 00:02:16,995
But ever since I fell down the Bitcoin
rabbit hole back in 2017, I've been

44
00:02:17,085 --> 00:02:21,115
obsessing over that and couldn't really
build any other type of software.

45
00:02:21,435 --> 00:02:23,425
There's so much to be built in this space.

46
00:02:23,905 --> 00:02:29,005
And then I fell down the Nostr
rabbit hole in late 22, 2022.

47
00:02:30,790 --> 00:02:35,380
And, uh, it's been 24 7 since then.

48
00:02:35,490 --> 00:02:41,410
Every waking hour of the day, uh, all,
I wake up and I just work on Nostr.

49
00:02:42,189 --> 00:02:43,029
Fantastic.

50
00:02:44,299 --> 00:02:46,719
Um, so what is Nostr?

51
00:02:47,640 --> 00:02:51,000
Well, as I just said, we're
all trying to figure this out.

52
00:02:52,350 --> 00:02:58,240
But at the high level, um, if we look
at Bitcoin as an open protocol for

53
00:02:58,250 --> 00:03:04,315
money, Uh, you can think of Nostr as an
open protocol for speech, speech in a

54
00:03:04,315 --> 00:03:06,775
kind of a, the broadest sense possible.

55
00:03:07,095 --> 00:03:13,255
Um, so this includes, uh, communication,
but also publishing, things like that.

56
00:03:13,699 --> 00:03:18,149
it will, as a part of that, it
brings us, an identity layer.

57
00:03:19,359 --> 00:03:25,359
Uh, basically what we have, what we're
seeing now is a global web of trust

58
00:03:25,979 --> 00:03:29,159
of cryptographic identities emerging.

59
00:03:29,699 --> 00:03:32,559
as a part of this Nostr
experiment, let's call it.

60
00:03:33,289 --> 00:03:37,819
Uh, so that's, all of that is quite
exciting and, uh, I think will

61
00:03:37,819 --> 00:03:39,559
have far reaching consequences.

62
00:03:40,205 --> 00:03:44,505
Yeah, and Nostr stands for notes and
other stuff, stuff through relays,

63
00:03:44,535 --> 00:03:47,525
if I'm not misremembering this.

64
00:03:47,715 --> 00:03:51,845
Um, well, what is a relay and
how, how does this thing work?

65
00:03:52,642 --> 00:03:56,752
uh, well the good news about Nostr
is that it's extremely simple.

66
00:03:57,332 --> 00:03:58,222
as a protocol.

67
00:03:58,789 --> 00:04:02,949
and, uh, let's maybe describe
it just in a few sentences.

68
00:04:03,269 --> 00:04:05,489
So there are three
major concepts in Nostr.

69
00:04:06,069 --> 00:04:09,759
concept number one is
every user gets a key pair.

70
00:04:10,389 --> 00:04:12,869
So bitcoiners will be
very familiar with this.

71
00:04:12,869 --> 00:04:14,739
You get a private key and a public key.

72
00:04:15,626 --> 00:04:19,299
concept number two is you use client apps.

73
00:04:19,999 --> 00:04:22,369
so everyone's familiar with that.

74
00:04:23,012 --> 00:04:30,622
and using the client app, you create a
message and sign it with your key and then

75
00:04:30,627 --> 00:04:36,642
transmit it to the set of relays, which is
the third and final concept In noster, uh,

76
00:04:36,642 --> 00:04:40,092
relays are, uh, very simple, uh, servers.

77
00:04:40,565 --> 00:04:46,205
they're capable of, uh, accepting
signed messages from users and storing

78
00:04:46,205 --> 00:04:52,965
them locally, and then, uh, answering
to, uh, responding to very simple,

79
00:04:53,075 --> 00:04:57,385
uh, queries, like, for example, if
I say, hey, this is Knut, I have

80
00:04:57,395 --> 00:05:03,505
his public key, do you have any, uh,
content that Knut has published lately?

81
00:05:03,875 --> 00:05:06,125
And the relay will respond
to that type of request.

82
00:05:07,215 --> 00:05:08,315
So that's basically it.

83
00:05:08,675 --> 00:05:13,995
That's the entirety of Nostr, and,
and the protocol is so simple that

84
00:05:14,045 --> 00:05:19,215
it can be described in three words,
which is signed, messages, relayed.

85
00:05:19,765 --> 00:05:20,215
That's Nostr.

86
00:05:20,935 --> 00:05:24,385
The rest of it has to do with the
format of those messages and so

87
00:05:24,385 --> 00:05:28,575
forth, and, you know, like, it
can get quite detailed from there.

88
00:05:29,000 --> 00:05:34,400
Uh, there are, the protocol itself is
defined in a collect connection of, uh,

89
00:05:34,400 --> 00:05:39,830
collection of nips, uh, noster improvement
possibilities similar to bips and Bitcoin.

90
00:05:40,650 --> 00:05:44,880
I don't know where we're at in terms
of the count of like nips so far.

91
00:05:44,880 --> 00:05:48,390
I think we might be like
past a hundred, uh, nips.

92
00:05:48,690 --> 00:05:53,330
But what's interesting is that
only, uh, nip, uh, nip oh one

93
00:05:53,480 --> 00:05:55,250
is the only mandatory nip.

94
00:05:55,505 --> 00:05:59,235
So you can, it's like a few pages,
you can just read that, and that

95
00:05:59,235 --> 00:06:03,485
kind of defines the protocol itself,
and all the other NIPs are optional.

96
00:06:04,239 --> 00:06:08,519
So the protocol is, like
I said, very simple.

97
00:06:08,539 --> 00:06:10,389
It doesn't try to do too much.

98
00:06:10,409 --> 00:06:14,479
It doesn't try to achieve
global consensus, for example,

99
00:06:15,299 --> 00:06:17,679
like Bitcoin is doing.

100
00:06:18,619 --> 00:06:24,219
It's much more casual from the point
of view that you're just like sending

101
00:06:24,614 --> 00:06:31,344
Notes to, uh, a collection of relays
and, uh, then client applications.

102
00:06:31,404 --> 00:06:33,964
Uh, figure out how to
make sense of it all.

103
00:06:34,485 --> 00:06:39,555
Okay, and the only identification, so to
speak, is the public private key pair.

104
00:06:40,580 --> 00:06:41,050
Uh, right.

105
00:06:41,410 --> 00:06:44,490
You, you get a public key and
a private key and you sign your

106
00:06:44,490 --> 00:06:45,860
messages with a private key.

107
00:06:46,180 --> 00:06:51,960
And I guess that means that you
could have multiple identities, like

108
00:06:51,960 --> 00:06:55,740
an infinite amount of identities,
uh, theoretically at least, right?

109
00:06:56,157 --> 00:07:00,597
You can, and you probably should
have multiple identities on aster.

110
00:07:00,597 --> 00:07:05,357
Like it's so easy to create name
accounts and, uh, because anyone

111
00:07:05,362 --> 00:07:07,397
can create key pairs so easily.

112
00:07:07,397 --> 00:07:11,777
There are also millions of
bots on noster presents.

113
00:07:11,777 --> 00:07:13,247
Uh, an interesting situation.

114
00:07:13,517 --> 00:07:15,737
I mean, Noster is not unique to that.

115
00:07:15,737 --> 00:07:17,387
There are millions of bots on Twitter too.

116
00:07:17,952 --> 00:07:22,262
Uh, it's just much, much
easier to create bots on Nostr.

117
00:07:22,870 --> 00:07:25,040
Okay, and how is that a good thing?

118
00:07:25,752 --> 00:07:31,082
Well, it kind of, uh, I don't know if it's
a good thing, it's just a thing, right?

119
00:07:31,122 --> 00:07:34,539
But, um, throws that monkey off our back.

120
00:07:34,539 --> 00:07:35,579
We know there are gonna be bots.

121
00:07:36,004 --> 00:07:40,884
And we kind of, as we're building
applications and infrastructure on top of

122
00:07:40,884 --> 00:07:43,414
Nostr, we just have to account for that.

123
00:07:43,984 --> 00:07:48,594
So every developer building useful
products and services on top of Nostr

124
00:07:48,814 --> 00:07:53,624
needs to understand that this is an
open network, that we're, that we

125
00:07:53,624 --> 00:07:56,654
live in an adversarial environment.

126
00:07:57,344 --> 00:08:00,604
And build products and
features accordingly.

127
00:08:01,005 --> 00:08:04,364
And the good news is that, as
I mentioned previously, we're

128
00:08:04,364 --> 00:08:07,387
spinning this global web of trust.

129
00:08:08,609 --> 00:08:13,039
of kind of public, of
cryptographic identities where

130
00:08:13,069 --> 00:08:15,279
we can rely on this web of trust.

131
00:08:15,339 --> 00:08:18,719
There's quite a bit of signal
in there to filter out the bots.

132
00:08:19,129 --> 00:08:23,779
So that's one of the strongest kind
of aspects of Nostr that you have

133
00:08:23,779 --> 00:08:29,319
this global identity layer that's
fully open and kind of equally

134
00:08:29,319 --> 00:08:31,799
accessible to any user or developer.

135
00:08:32,317 --> 00:08:36,817
Yeah, and It's been pointed out
to me a lot when I try to poke

136
00:08:36,817 --> 00:08:41,567
holes in Nostr just for the sake of
argument that it is not Twitter 2.

137
00:08:41,607 --> 00:08:47,727
0, it's a protocol layer and all
sorts of things could at least

138
00:08:47,727 --> 00:08:49,577
theoretically be built on top of it.

139
00:08:50,157 --> 00:08:55,577
Uh, so it's not directly competing with
the social networks of the world, but

140
00:08:55,577 --> 00:08:58,357
rather competing with the internet itself.

141
00:08:58,657 --> 00:09:03,017
Would that be a good description that
we're sort of reinventing the wheel,

142
00:09:03,027 --> 00:09:06,027
but with cryptography at the base layer?

143
00:09:06,387 --> 00:09:07,627
Is that a good description?

144
00:09:08,540 --> 00:09:09,840
yes, that's a good description.

145
00:09:09,840 --> 00:09:16,030
So the Nostr is definitely not, uh, just
built for social media applications, even

146
00:09:16,030 --> 00:09:20,254
though that's a content type that has
taken off, in the early stages of Nostr.

147
00:09:21,004 --> 00:09:23,654
Uh, there are other content types
and there are other application

148
00:09:23,684 --> 00:09:27,764
types that are, uh, that are being
built and have been released, and

149
00:09:28,054 --> 00:09:30,004
they're kind of starting to take off.

150
00:09:30,352 --> 00:09:37,502
to various degrees, uh, so, um, long
form content would be, uh, another one.

151
00:09:37,502 --> 00:09:40,712
Maybe that's what you should have
used with your, uh, with your book,

152
00:09:40,782 --> 00:09:42,532
maybe post it as a long form note.

153
00:09:42,702 --> 00:09:43,252
I don't know.

154
00:09:44,162 --> 00:09:48,272
Well, I wouldn't have broke
primal if I did, right?

155
00:09:48,452 --> 00:09:51,212
So the achievement wouldn't
have been unlocked.

156
00:09:51,867 --> 00:09:53,017
That's true, actually.

157
00:09:53,137 --> 00:09:58,377
So, um, yeah, we still don't support
long form nodes on Primal, but this

158
00:09:58,387 --> 00:10:01,707
is one of the, uh, next things that
we're, that we have on our roadmap.

159
00:10:02,117 --> 00:10:03,657
We're actually working on it right now.

160
00:10:04,027 --> 00:10:06,207
Uh, I'm quite bullish
on that content type.

161
00:10:06,207 --> 00:10:13,742
So to kind of be, um, to be a little
bit more specific, if Social media

162
00:10:13,782 --> 00:10:17,992
content is competing with Twitter,
Reddit, Instagram, and so forth.

163
00:10:18,582 --> 00:10:23,462
Long form content is competing
with the sub stacks of the world

164
00:10:23,562 --> 00:10:26,842
or medium, those types of products.

165
00:10:27,512 --> 00:10:36,107
And what should be pointed out is that
on the one hand, you have Twitter,

166
00:10:37,207 --> 00:10:42,227
Reddit, Facebook, and so forth, and
then you have Medium and Substack.

167
00:10:43,037 --> 00:10:49,320
All of these, let's call them legacy
web applications, have their own social

168
00:10:49,320 --> 00:10:53,130
networks, have their own kind of user
directory and a social graph that's

169
00:10:53,270 --> 00:10:58,050
like included in each one of these
products, and they're all siloed.

170
00:10:58,051 --> 00:11:03,080
They're all closed, and they all have
their own network, and they jealously

171
00:11:03,080 --> 00:11:05,190
guard that network from anyone else.

172
00:11:05,750 --> 00:11:11,390
It's essentially a walled garden where,
uh, walls are getting taller as time

173
00:11:11,390 --> 00:11:15,730
goes by, where it's kind of, you're
realizing that, uh, if you're not logged

174
00:11:15,730 --> 00:11:20,140
in, you're able to access less and
less of Twitter content, for example.

175
00:11:20,884 --> 00:11:27,024
so, in stark contrast to that, you
have Nostr, where you have a few dozen

176
00:11:27,484 --> 00:11:33,644
Social media clients already working
on the same data layer on the same open

177
00:11:33,644 --> 00:11:40,054
social graph where you can take your
private key out of one app and plug it

178
00:11:40,054 --> 00:11:44,594
into the other one and you will be able
to access the network the same way.

179
00:11:44,874 --> 00:11:47,294
You'll have the same followers, etc, etc.

180
00:11:47,870 --> 00:11:50,520
But it goes beyond just
social media content.

181
00:11:50,710 --> 00:11:56,540
Uh, then you plug your private key,
let's say you take your Primal,

182
00:11:56,660 --> 00:12:01,060
your Primal, your private key from
Primal and plug it into highlighter.

183
00:12:01,340 --> 00:12:07,074
com, which is a long form, client
that's competing with Substack.

184
00:12:07,940 --> 00:12:14,795
And you can You're still dealing with
the same, uh, social graph, so you

185
00:12:14,795 --> 00:12:18,755
have, not only do we have a bunch
of social media clients working off

186
00:12:18,755 --> 00:12:23,255
the same social graph and the same
content, but we have multiple types of

187
00:12:23,255 --> 00:12:29,675
applications, so again, beyond, Long form
content and short form and social media

188
00:12:29,705 --> 00:12:32,439
content, we have, streaming content.

189
00:12:32,479 --> 00:12:37,975
So let's say, Zapstream is one of
the most exciting Nostr projects,

190
00:12:38,285 --> 00:12:39,865
which is a Twitch competitor.

191
00:12:40,465 --> 00:12:46,705
Uh, then you have a number of music
applications and marketplaces.

192
00:12:46,885 --> 00:12:49,575
There's even a GitHub competitor.

193
00:12:49,885 --> 00:12:52,475
So Nostr is quite versatile.

194
00:12:52,869 --> 00:12:58,039
because like its core is so simple
that it's extremely extensible

195
00:12:58,619 --> 00:13:01,939
and it's quite versatile in terms
of the types of applications

196
00:13:01,989 --> 00:13:03,429
that you can build on top of it.

197
00:13:03,829 --> 00:13:07,939
And I really believe that we will
end up re implementing the entire

198
00:13:07,969 --> 00:13:13,339
kind of legacy web onto this, uh,
on top of this protocol, which

199
00:13:13,349 --> 00:13:15,699
will give users full sovereignty.

200
00:13:16,589 --> 00:13:21,229
over their online identity, over
their social connections, and,

201
00:13:21,339 --> 00:13:23,579
uh, the content they publish.

202
00:13:24,242 --> 00:13:29,892
Yeah, and as I understand it, the zaps
are not in the protocol itself, right?

203
00:13:29,912 --> 00:13:34,532
It's something you build on top, like
lightning support in the clients.

204
00:13:35,319 --> 00:13:41,412
Zaps are a part of the protocol in the
sense that they are defined in a NIP or

205
00:13:41,412 --> 00:13:46,679
a collection of NIPs, uh, but they are
not mandatory, as I mentioned previously.

206
00:13:46,689 --> 00:13:51,369
Only NIP1 is mandatory, so it's just
an extension of the protocol, and it's

207
00:13:51,459 --> 00:13:56,134
up to individual client developers to
decide which NIPs they want to implement.

208
00:13:57,214 --> 00:14:02,244
And the Zaps NIP is very popular,
of course, because it's such a great

209
00:14:02,244 --> 00:14:06,054
feature that most clients implemented it.

210
00:14:06,084 --> 00:14:10,944
So it kind of, they became, de
facto, a part of the protocol.

211
00:14:11,549 --> 00:14:18,449
Yeah, and speaking of saps, like, I,
uh, this is, this is like the part of

212
00:14:18,449 --> 00:14:24,979
Nostr and Nostr as, uh, Nostr clients
as Twitter clones or social media

213
00:14:24,979 --> 00:14:29,869
clones that I, that make it, makes it
different, but, but I don't really see,

214
00:14:30,289 --> 00:14:36,510
like, let's see if I can, uh, Um, tell
this story correctly, but, but, um,

215
00:14:37,150 --> 00:14:43,030
right now the Internet is a game of,
um, um, if you're a content creator,

216
00:14:43,040 --> 00:14:47,500
it's a constant game for, for subscribes
and likes and stuff like that, right?

217
00:14:47,560 --> 00:14:50,810
Uh, and retweets and whatnot and mentions.

218
00:14:51,070 --> 00:14:54,150
That's how you get, you know,
Internet fame, if you will.

219
00:14:54,830 --> 00:14:59,270
And on noster, you sap people, so
you send them actual money, uh,

220
00:14:59,300 --> 00:15:01,400
over the Lightning Network work.

221
00:15:01,910 --> 00:15:06,410
And the post that gets zapped
the most, uh, are the ones that

222
00:15:06,410 --> 00:15:10,250
people usually see in their feeds
because most of the Noster clients

223
00:15:10,970 --> 00:15:15,484
prioritize, Well zapped post, right?

224
00:15:15,814 --> 00:15:21,794
Am I completely wrong here or is
this a somewhat fair representation?

225
00:15:22,824 --> 00:15:25,114
I would say that's a
somewhat fair representation.

226
00:15:25,164 --> 00:15:26,974
Let's maybe dig into the details.

227
00:15:27,520 --> 00:15:34,960
So my question is, um, doesn't
this create an even more, um, harsh

228
00:15:34,960 --> 00:15:39,828
competition for, for, uh, uh, for
likes, like the people will do even

229
00:15:39,828 --> 00:15:46,320
more clickbaity things in order to get
the zaps to that they will, instead of

230
00:15:46,660 --> 00:15:49,410
being honest and, and, uh, open about.

231
00:15:50,085 --> 00:15:54,615
Uh, whatever they're talking about, won't
they just have the incentive to optimize

232
00:15:54,625 --> 00:16:00,155
for zaps the way they have an incentive
to optimize for attention at the moment?

233
00:16:00,395 --> 00:16:03,115
Aren't we just shifting the
attention economy to something

234
00:16:03,115 --> 00:16:04,685
like attention on steroids?

235
00:16:05,120 --> 00:16:06,590
Yeah, let's take a closer look.

236
00:16:06,590 --> 00:16:12,314
I think this is a good, uh, Fascinating
topic, uh, because it kind of, plugs into

237
00:16:12,834 --> 00:16:17,914
like one of the key points, which is,
uh, the current legacy web, let's put it

238
00:16:17,914 --> 00:16:24,084
this way, is there's a set of incentives
that exists currently between, uh, like

239
00:16:24,084 --> 00:16:28,004
you said, content creators, viewers,
people who are just like consuming

240
00:16:28,004 --> 00:16:34,534
content and the big platforms that are
literally in charge of this, all of this.

241
00:16:35,114 --> 00:16:40,774
And the monetization model has
predominantly been based on

242
00:16:40,774 --> 00:16:46,424
advertising, as you guys know, which
of course means that users are not

243
00:16:46,464 --> 00:16:49,384
really customers of these platforms.

244
00:16:49,504 --> 00:16:53,584
They are the product which is
being sold to the real customers,

245
00:16:53,584 --> 00:16:54,884
which is the advertisers.

246
00:16:55,404 --> 00:17:01,264
And by competing to provide the best
possible product to their customers,

247
00:17:03,069 --> 00:17:09,179
the best possible advertising, uh, real
estate and kind of advertising, uh,

248
00:17:09,189 --> 00:17:15,129
data, uh, to their advertisers, to their
customers, uh, the current platform

249
00:17:15,129 --> 00:17:19,719
owners are incentivized to do all kinds
of crazy things and super creepy things.

250
00:17:19,859 --> 00:17:22,159
They're incentivized to spy on us.

251
00:17:22,759 --> 00:17:26,719
Uh, we all know now it's a common
knowledge that, you know, Instagram

252
00:17:26,729 --> 00:17:32,739
will kind of listen in on your
conversations and then serve kind

253
00:17:32,739 --> 00:17:35,039
of, uh, the related ads later on.

254
00:17:35,039 --> 00:17:39,949
So, like, this used to be a conspiracy
theory, maybe like five years ago or

255
00:17:39,949 --> 00:17:42,289
so, but everybody knows that today.

256
00:17:42,739 --> 00:17:48,349
So, there is a certain sort of incentive
structure that exists with the legacy web.

257
00:17:48,864 --> 00:17:50,984
And it's not great, to say the least.

258
00:17:51,984 --> 00:18:01,089
with Nostr, we have the, uh, opportunity
to, uh, maybe Rework this incentive

259
00:18:01,089 --> 00:18:06,929
structure and, uh, what's different
with Nostr compared to, let's say, 10

260
00:18:06,929 --> 00:18:11,379
or 15 years ago when these, like, major
kind of legacy, what are currently

261
00:18:11,379 --> 00:18:13,199
legacy apps were being developed.

262
00:18:13,469 --> 00:18:17,359
What's different with Nostr
is that we do have Bitcoin.

263
00:18:17,959 --> 00:18:20,119
We do have Lightning that works.

264
00:18:20,469 --> 00:18:21,869
And I'm happy to talk about that.

265
00:18:22,179 --> 00:18:24,299
specifically why Lightning works today.

266
00:18:24,479 --> 00:18:28,679
There's a little bit of a debate about
that going on in Bitcoin Circle, so we

267
00:18:28,679 --> 00:18:32,789
can maybe have the conversation if you
want to, but Lightning definitely works.

268
00:18:33,099 --> 00:18:40,319
It's here, and it's integrated into
Nostr using this ZAP specification.

269
00:18:41,529 --> 00:18:49,240
So now, um I think the balance of
power is shifting dramatically with

270
00:18:49,490 --> 00:18:50,810
Nostr in a couple of different ways.

271
00:18:51,030 --> 00:18:53,770
One is, well, the user is in charge.

272
00:18:53,810 --> 00:18:57,370
The user is sovereign when
it comes to their identity.

273
00:18:57,390 --> 00:19:06,290
So it's, uh, the legacy platforms
are able to, of course, de platform

274
00:19:06,290 --> 00:19:10,920
you to change your, you know, access
to your account, even post from

275
00:19:10,920 --> 00:19:12,690
your account, which is pretty wild.

276
00:19:13,200 --> 00:19:14,480
That's not possible on Nostr.

277
00:19:15,368 --> 00:19:20,450
Uh, the user can pick up and leave any
client that they're not happy with.

278
00:19:21,940 --> 00:19:27,279
So that changes the incentive structure
quite, kind of the power dynamic,

279
00:19:27,439 --> 00:19:33,498
let's say, between, uh, the app
providers and the users quite a bit.

280
00:19:34,378 --> 00:19:38,248
And the second one is the kind of
the incentive structure between,

281
00:19:38,598 --> 00:19:42,942
let's say, content creators,
uh, app providers and users.

282
00:19:43,343 --> 00:19:48,732
in the sense that, content creators
are now able to monetize their

283
00:19:48,762 --> 00:19:51,882
content directly from the users.

284
00:19:52,583 --> 00:19:57,203
And the very first iteration
of this is visible in zaps.

285
00:19:58,115 --> 00:20:03,505
So, if, if I value your content,
I can, uh, send you a zap, and

286
00:20:03,505 --> 00:20:06,935
you will receive it directly from
me, and that's the end of it.

287
00:20:07,624 --> 00:20:12,896
and then I think we're going to
see quite a bit of iteration and

288
00:20:12,906 --> 00:20:14,986
experimentation with this feature.

289
00:20:15,296 --> 00:20:17,656
This is not by any means a done deal.

290
00:20:18,256 --> 00:20:23,146
The first most primitive implementation
is like, okay, well, instead of a

291
00:20:23,166 --> 00:20:27,566
like, because likes are cheap, anyone
can press a button and that's it.

292
00:20:27,936 --> 00:20:33,886
Uh, let's, uh, have this capability to
zap a certain note, any note, and then,

293
00:20:33,896 --> 00:20:36,442
uh, The author gets the funds immediately.

294
00:20:36,822 --> 00:20:43,042
That's the, kind of, the most obvious, uh,
and, kind of, the simplest way to utilize

295
00:20:43,042 --> 00:20:47,487
the technology that we have, but There
are going to be other iterations of this.

296
00:20:48,297 --> 00:20:53,547
For example, Pablo, the creator of
Highlighter, is currently working on, or

297
00:20:53,547 --> 00:20:58,017
has already launched this capability kind
of in early form where content creators

298
00:20:58,067 --> 00:21:04,777
can create these, uh, backstage passes,
basically the ability to, for their, uh,

299
00:21:04,977 --> 00:21:08,357
audience to access, uh, exclusive content.

300
00:21:08,817 --> 00:21:10,787
and creates kind of subscription tiers.

301
00:21:12,048 --> 00:21:17,908
when defining the subscription
tier itself, the content creator

302
00:21:18,618 --> 00:21:23,638
gets to decide what happens with
the revenue that's coming in.

303
00:21:24,188 --> 00:21:28,668
So that changes the
power dynamic entirely.

304
00:21:30,518 --> 00:21:36,563
Whereas, In Legacy Web, you, as a
content creator, are subjected to

305
00:21:36,563 --> 00:21:39,573
whatever rules the platform sets for you.

306
00:21:39,583 --> 00:21:43,643
The platform, like Substack,
might say, uh, you know,

307
00:21:43,853 --> 00:21:45,673
you'll get X number of percent.

308
00:21:46,383 --> 00:21:49,653
We decided already, and
take it or leave it.

309
00:21:50,183 --> 00:21:55,964
Whereas this, situation
is reversed on, uh, Nostr.

310
00:21:56,544 --> 00:22:02,484
Uh, so the way that Pablo wrote this spec
is, You as a content creator can, you

311
00:22:02,484 --> 00:22:09,184
know, how about 100 percent to start with
and, you know, and then you decide, okay,

312
00:22:09,464 --> 00:22:16,324
the, uh, you know, the application that
surfaced this particular subscription, so

313
00:22:17,014 --> 00:22:22,919
if a user came through, You know, Primal,
let's say, and subscribe to Primal or

314
00:22:22,919 --> 00:22:25,699
any other kind of client application.

315
00:22:26,059 --> 00:22:30,799
I will, uh, give them 2 percent
or 5 percent or whatever.

316
00:22:30,959 --> 00:22:36,289
You get to decide as a creator
how the revenue will be split up.

317
00:22:36,849 --> 00:22:39,499
And then through Zap Splits,
you can share it with your kind

318
00:22:39,499 --> 00:22:41,269
of collaborators and so forth.

319
00:22:42,130 --> 00:22:45,450
so that's a very long winded
answer to your question.

320
00:22:45,820 --> 00:22:53,035
I mean, it's such It's such a, it's such
a fascinating topic, and I think, uh, Zaps

321
00:22:53,355 --> 00:22:59,535
and this ability to pay content creators
directly is underappreciated currently.

322
00:22:59,545 --> 00:23:03,935
They completely, this will completely
change the power dynamic on the

323
00:23:03,935 --> 00:23:05,765
web, and I think for the better.

324
00:23:07,410 --> 00:23:08,730
Yeah, that's fantastic.

325
00:23:09,230 --> 00:23:10,250
Pablo is fantastic.

326
00:23:10,250 --> 00:23:13,880
I had the pleasure of
joining the very last

327
00:23:16,250 --> 00:23:22,324
session with him and Gigi on Madeira,
where they have this development cohort

328
00:23:24,344 --> 00:23:28,034
developing stuff for Nostr and
Bitcoin, and that was a wonderful

329
00:23:28,604 --> 00:23:34,304
group of highly intelligent
freaks working on stuff like this.

330
00:23:34,999 --> 00:23:39,689
And, and that's, that's just amazing
that, um, it might just imagining

331
00:23:39,689 --> 00:23:43,789
a world where, where the creators
decide how much the, the middleman

332
00:23:43,789 --> 00:23:45,629
gets instead of the other way around.

333
00:23:46,199 --> 00:23:51,269
I mean, imagine that for self
publishing on the, uh, uh, Nostr

334
00:23:51,269 --> 00:23:53,029
equivalent of Amazon, for instance.

335
00:23:53,129 --> 00:23:53,619
Okay.

336
00:23:53,939 --> 00:23:59,429
Whoever gets, whoever gives me the
best deal gets to publish my book,

337
00:23:59,539 --> 00:24:04,849
print on demand, like that completely
turns the, turns all the tables, right?

338
00:24:05,709 --> 00:24:06,479
so exciting.

339
00:24:06,529 --> 00:24:13,629
And like, you can't help but be extremely
bullish on Nostr when you see the type of

340
00:24:14,709 --> 00:24:16,629
developer activity that's going on there.

341
00:24:17,462 --> 00:24:18,362
No, it was really cool.

342
00:24:18,362 --> 00:24:22,502
All the projects like me as a layman
sitting there in the audience and

343
00:24:22,502 --> 00:24:26,742
understanding a handful of percent
of what people are saying, but, but

344
00:24:26,742 --> 00:24:30,152
still being very excited about it
because you know, they're building

345
00:24:30,152 --> 00:24:32,702
it on top of this unstoppable layer.

346
00:24:32,702 --> 00:24:34,292
It's, it's a pretty amazing.

347
00:24:34,292 --> 00:24:34,482
Yeah.

348
00:24:34,990 --> 00:24:35,750
Yeah, love it.

349
00:24:36,791 --> 00:24:40,431
Hey, maybe, uh, maybe I'll jump
in, uh, uh, now with, uh, just to

350
00:24:40,441 --> 00:24:43,861
direct things, um, maybe a little
bit in a different direction here.

351
00:24:44,321 --> 00:24:47,741
Can you tell us a little bit
about how Primal came to be?

352
00:24:47,791 --> 00:24:52,701
Like, uh, what was the impetus
for developing a Nostr client?

353
00:24:53,747 --> 00:25:00,192
So, prior to starting Primal, I spent
a couple years, I was kind of between

354
00:25:00,192 --> 00:25:02,167
startups, let's put it this way.

355
00:25:02,877 --> 00:25:08,097
And I was basically just a bum, not doing
much, kind of just tinkering with, uh,

356
00:25:08,197 --> 00:25:13,357
things here and there, but, uh, fairly
empty calendar all around, and, uh,

357
00:25:13,667 --> 00:25:18,237
one of the things I was, uh, tinkering
with is kind of just research about,

358
00:25:18,287 --> 00:25:24,977
uh, on things Decentralized publishing
protocols and so that seemed interesting

359
00:25:24,987 --> 00:25:29,167
to me and it seemed like it will become
quite relevant in the coming years.

360
00:25:29,647 --> 00:25:33,629
I even tried designing my own
protocol and I wasn't quite happy

361
00:25:33,629 --> 00:25:36,079
with anything including my own design.

362
00:25:37,149 --> 00:25:40,029
All of these things seemed
way too complicated to me.

363
00:25:41,159 --> 00:25:47,664
And then, um, I discovered
Nostr in mid 2022, that was my

364
00:25:47,674 --> 00:25:49,454
first kind of exposure to Nostr.

365
00:25:49,814 --> 00:25:55,264
Unfortunately for me, I didn't
take a close enough look and

366
00:25:55,264 --> 00:25:56,784
I kind of just discarded it.

367
00:25:58,254 --> 00:26:01,734
That was kind of the first
touchpoint, which I guess there

368
00:26:01,734 --> 00:26:03,834
are parallels to Bitcoin here.

369
00:26:04,864 --> 00:26:10,254
It seems like many of us need
multiple touchpoints, needed

370
00:26:10,314 --> 00:26:11,694
multiple touchpoints with Bitcoin.

371
00:26:12,589 --> 00:26:15,749
in order to kind of start
actually paying more attention.

372
00:26:16,049 --> 00:26:18,576
So that was the case, with me for Nostr.

373
00:26:19,006 --> 00:26:25,573
And then, at the end of 2022, when
Jack Dorsey, uh, tweeted about it, and

374
00:26:25,583 --> 00:26:29,458
more people started paying attention,
uh, I decided to take another look,

375
00:26:29,868 --> 00:26:35,503
actually went and read the spec, uh, and,
immediately fell down the rabbit hole.

376
00:26:35,513 --> 00:26:40,313
I immediately knew I had to, I was
going to do a startup, and, uh, I had

377
00:26:40,313 --> 00:26:43,883
this itch to build, uh, a Nostr client.

378
00:26:43,903 --> 00:26:48,353
And one of the, kind of the immediate
reactions once, once I was reading through

379
00:26:48,353 --> 00:26:54,858
NIP1 basically is, first of all, I was
Certain that this was going to work,

380
00:26:56,005 --> 00:26:58,305
just hit me immediately in a flash.

381
00:26:58,315 --> 00:27:01,265
I was like, okay, this is, this
is the one we've been looking for.

382
00:27:02,075 --> 00:27:02,965
It's going to work.

383
00:27:03,805 --> 00:27:07,925
And, uh, then I realized
we have so much work to do.

384
00:27:07,985 --> 00:27:12,315
And I was kind of wondering, I
was like, okay, this will work,

385
00:27:12,315 --> 00:27:14,575
but I wonder how good it can get.

386
00:27:15,466 --> 00:27:17,865
I wonder in terms of UX.

387
00:27:18,556 --> 00:27:22,616
I wonder how fast we can make this
thing to go without jeopardizing

388
00:27:22,826 --> 00:27:28,470
some of the, uh, kind of censorship
resistance, uh, aspects of the protocol.

389
00:27:29,128 --> 00:27:35,358
and it's like, it was this curiosity and
an itch, like, just that I couldn't shake

390
00:27:35,368 --> 00:27:37,348
that I have to build something here.

391
00:27:37,778 --> 00:27:43,778
Uh, so I immediately came up with the
idea to build a caching service, uh, for

392
00:27:44,078 --> 00:27:51,468
Nostr, um, which is, uh, the ability to
essentially to connect to all of the,

393
00:27:51,518 --> 00:27:56,518
uh, available relays, all of the publicly
accessible relays and kind of collect all

394
00:27:56,538 --> 00:27:58,738
the content in real time and index it.

395
00:27:58,738 --> 00:28:03,067
And of course, uh, it was obvious
that Discovery, Discovery.

396
00:28:03,228 --> 00:28:07,678
was going to be one of the, uh, discovery
layer, was going to be one of the things

397
00:28:07,688 --> 00:28:11,438
that would need to get built because
the content is, lives on just like,

398
00:28:11,748 --> 00:28:15,468
hundreds of unconnected Relays, right?

399
00:28:15,698 --> 00:28:19,818
And by design of the protocol, uh,
relays don't talk to each other.

400
00:28:19,818 --> 00:28:25,498
It's, it's one of the kind of,
one of the aspects of Nostr

401
00:28:25,538 --> 00:28:27,378
that makes it so simple, right?

402
00:28:27,838 --> 00:28:31,018
But also it creates some challenges
around discovery and so forth.

403
00:28:32,068 --> 00:28:37,498
So I started Primal, I discovered
Nostr in December of 2022.

404
00:28:37,558 --> 00:28:41,138
I started Primal in January of 2023.

405
00:28:42,213 --> 00:28:49,033
Uh, and, we started coding also in
January, and, uh, the idea was to

406
00:28:49,073 --> 00:28:55,043
code the caching service, the indexer,
and, uh, we started with a web client.

407
00:28:55,363 --> 00:29:00,989
So, A month later, uh, it was decided
that the first Nostr conference will

408
00:29:00,989 --> 00:29:05,979
happen in Costa Rica in mid March,
and I wanted to make sure that we

409
00:29:05,979 --> 00:29:09,749
have something to show before the
conference, so we actually shipped the

410
00:29:09,749 --> 00:29:13,989
first preview of Primal, which kind of
previewed the whole stack, the caching

411
00:29:13,989 --> 00:29:18,589
service, the indexer, and the web client.

412
00:29:18,949 --> 00:29:24,469
A couple of days before Nostrica, then
I flew down to Costa Rica and I thought

413
00:29:24,499 --> 00:29:28,559
nobody will notice that, you know, this
new client got launched, but it turns

414
00:29:28,559 --> 00:29:32,169
out that everybody noticed and that
was kind of the beginning of Primal.

415
00:29:32,831 --> 00:29:33,521
Yeah, that's awesome.

416
00:29:33,521 --> 00:29:37,661
And I'm remembering the history,
like really, really early days, just

417
00:29:37,661 --> 00:29:39,891
when Nostr was blowing up properly.

418
00:29:39,891 --> 00:29:42,821
And I guess this would be late, late 2022.

419
00:29:42,851 --> 00:29:47,831
And I mean, I think I remember
using a couple of clients

420
00:29:47,841 --> 00:29:49,611
that are even now defunct.

421
00:29:49,931 --> 00:29:52,681
Iris is one of them that
something happened with that.

422
00:29:52,761 --> 00:29:54,651
I don't know actually what happened there.

423
00:29:54,651 --> 00:29:58,901
And then Snort is still kind of around.

424
00:29:59,376 --> 00:30:03,836
Uh, and there were even a couple
others I tried back then, but Primal

425
00:30:03,866 --> 00:30:08,546
seems to have kind of snuck up the
middle and really turned into the

426
00:30:08,976 --> 00:30:12,866
web client that gets recommended, and
even nowadays the app as well that's

427
00:30:12,876 --> 00:30:17,866
recommended, and I mean, uh, do you
have any idea, what do you think Primal

428
00:30:18,086 --> 00:30:24,476
has done differently to really become
the premier Nostr client these days?

429
00:30:25,169 --> 00:30:28,319
Well, first of all, I would
just make a comment about Snort.

430
00:30:28,709 --> 00:30:30,389
Snort is very much still around.

431
00:30:30,939 --> 00:30:32,379
It's a great client.

432
00:30:32,379 --> 00:30:34,469
It's one of my favorite clients.

433
00:30:35,099 --> 00:30:37,279
Uh, uh, you asked about Iris.

434
00:30:37,759 --> 00:30:41,959
It's actually Marty, who is the
founder of Iris, who decided to

435
00:30:41,959 --> 00:30:44,809
join, uh, Kirin, uh, on Snort.

436
00:30:44,809 --> 00:30:47,639
So, so they're working on the
Snort, uh, code base together.

437
00:30:47,969 --> 00:30:53,509
And I think, uh, maybe, I think
they have two kind of flavors of it.

438
00:30:53,559 --> 00:30:57,169
Iris is still up and it's using
the Snort code base, I think.

439
00:30:57,169 --> 00:30:58,869
And so, so they're collaborating on this.

440
00:30:59,749 --> 00:31:03,839
Uh, Kirin is also busy with
Zapstream, which is just amazing.

441
00:31:04,422 --> 00:31:08,942
and it, when it comes to other, uh,
web clients, we need to talk about

442
00:31:08,972 --> 00:31:15,002
Corel as well, which is excellent,
as well as, uh, one, the, the, one

443
00:31:15,002 --> 00:31:21,382
of the new clients is Nodel, uh, and,
uh, and we have satellite as well.

444
00:31:21,382 --> 00:31:22,432
So there's still a number of.

445
00:31:22,982 --> 00:31:24,482
Uh, web clients.

446
00:31:25,282 --> 00:31:29,852
I think that the number of Nostr
clients of all different, uh, kind

447
00:31:29,852 --> 00:31:34,262
of on all different client platforms
is going to continue to proliferate.

448
00:31:34,896 --> 00:31:38,086
what did Primal do that's different?

449
00:31:38,166 --> 00:31:40,676
Um, maybe I think a couple of things.

450
00:31:40,806 --> 00:31:44,076
Uh, one has to do with the
caching service, definitely.

451
00:31:44,501 --> 00:31:50,191
So, um, by using this approach,
we were able to, improve the

452
00:31:50,191 --> 00:31:53,621
performance and speed of, uh, the UI.

453
00:31:54,221 --> 00:31:58,191
And the other thing we did is just
like we focused on a ton of details,

454
00:31:58,471 --> 00:32:03,356
um, you know, we, you have to, There's
a lot of work, basically, that has to

455
00:32:03,356 --> 00:32:08,536
be done for these types of clients to
work as you would expect because we

456
00:32:08,676 --> 00:32:15,219
are all competing against legacy web
clients, legacy platforms that have a

457
00:32:15,219 --> 00:32:17,341
long history and a lot of work to do.

458
00:32:17,941 --> 00:32:21,931
Both web and mobile clients have
billions of dollars behind them.

459
00:32:23,001 --> 00:32:27,369
And in most cases, you have
a single developer working

460
00:32:27,549 --> 00:32:29,819
behind one of these projects.

461
00:32:29,999 --> 00:32:31,359
It's also the case with Primal.

462
00:32:31,389 --> 00:32:33,349
So we have a fairly small team.

463
00:32:34,094 --> 00:32:36,504
we have one developer
working on the web client.

464
00:32:37,159 --> 00:32:41,319
One developer on the iOS client
and one developer on Android.

465
00:32:41,669 --> 00:32:45,949
And then we have one developer on
the backend working on the indexer

466
00:32:45,949 --> 00:32:47,169
and the caching and so forth.

467
00:32:47,959 --> 00:32:55,814
So, to answer your question, I think
what's different in our approach Uh, is

468
00:32:55,924 --> 00:33:00,444
this caching service, which we, by the
way, open sourced so that anyone can,

469
00:33:00,554 --> 00:33:02,944
any client can, can use this approach.

470
00:33:03,668 --> 00:33:10,726
and then, uh, just attention to detail,
just being willing to do a lot of UI

471
00:33:10,746 --> 00:33:16,806
work and a lot of kind of refinements
and a ton of fixes, a lot of things

472
00:33:16,856 --> 00:33:21,706
that are busted, you know, it's just
like, it's just work basically that,

473
00:33:21,716 --> 00:33:23,956
that, uh, that you need to put in.

474
00:33:24,761 --> 00:33:30,401
Yeah, we're, uh, I mean, you've done
a fantastic job, uh, within less than

475
00:33:30,421 --> 00:33:35,331
the span of less than two years, you've
constructed an app, which I use on my

476
00:33:35,341 --> 00:33:40,891
phone almost every day and on the web
every day, like, and I, at least I read

477
00:33:40,911 --> 00:33:45,331
on it every day, or maybe not post on
it every day, but it's a great, uh,

478
00:33:45,846 --> 00:33:51,346
Like, the way we're using it now, I
mean, we try to be more Nostr centric,

479
00:33:51,426 --> 00:33:55,586
uh, but, uh, the way we use it now is
as a complement to everything else, and

480
00:33:55,586 --> 00:34:00,926
it's, it's good to have this, well, if
everything else goes to shit and, uh, if

481
00:34:00,956 --> 00:34:07,776
Elon goes bonkers or something, we can
always just migrate to, to Nostr, um, it's

482
00:34:07,786 --> 00:34:12,571
very good as a complement, complementary
tool, is that the phrase, Luke?

483
00:34:12,978 --> 00:34:14,138
Yeah, I mean, I'd say so.

484
00:34:14,418 --> 00:34:18,828
And actually, maybe I can explain a
little bit about how we use Nostr.

485
00:34:18,828 --> 00:34:24,778
And I mean, the main thing is we,
we put everything currently on, on

486
00:34:24,818 --> 00:34:29,808
Twitter, just because and there's
scheduling programs and things like that.

487
00:34:29,818 --> 00:34:30,888
It's pretty easy.

488
00:34:31,158 --> 00:34:33,318
But the thing is, we also tried
to make sure that everything

489
00:34:33,328 --> 00:34:35,603
goes on to Nostr as well.

490
00:34:35,843 --> 00:34:38,883
But it feels a bit like just
putting it into a black hole.

491
00:34:39,183 --> 00:34:44,543
Like, our show actually has quite
a lot of followers and it seems

492
00:34:44,543 --> 00:34:48,113
like somehow we've made it onto
some list of things to follow.

493
00:34:48,113 --> 00:34:52,693
We constantly are getting new
followers, which is awesome.

494
00:34:53,318 --> 00:34:58,668
But whenever we post something, there's
not a lot of engagement, and I mean, it's

495
00:34:58,668 --> 00:35:05,414
hard to understand what people really
do to get engagement with Nostr, whereas

496
00:35:05,414 --> 00:35:09,848
with Twitter, it's at least a little
easier to kind of understand, because

497
00:35:09,868 --> 00:35:15,158
there's sort of a follower base, and the
algorithms work a certain way so that

498
00:35:15,948 --> 00:35:18,138
you get a certain amount of engagement.

499
00:35:18,343 --> 00:35:22,233
Whoever you're following, especially if
you scroll down the list quite a lot,

500
00:35:22,243 --> 00:35:28,713
but from, from my perspective, the, the
usability in terms of, uh, it's, it's

501
00:35:28,723 --> 00:35:35,053
either the top of the top posts, all
clients, not, not just, just primal.

502
00:35:35,053 --> 00:35:38,783
It's, it's either, it's either some
view showing the top of the top posts,

503
00:35:38,823 --> 00:35:40,893
or it's some kind of latest view.

504
00:35:41,203 --> 00:35:48,233
And that latest view is Transcribed Pretty
hard to actually use, uh, so it seems like

505
00:35:48,233 --> 00:35:55,113
discovery is still kind of different, it's
definitely easy enough to find the top

506
00:35:55,113 --> 00:35:59,753
stuff, like the best content, and I mean
that's fantastic, but it's also difficult

507
00:35:59,763 --> 00:36:02,693
to kind of break through, so I don't know.

508
00:36:02,963 --> 00:36:04,843
Kind of a, kind of an
open discussion point.

509
00:36:04,843 --> 00:36:07,973
Do you have any insights into
sort of this, this difficulty

510
00:36:08,003 --> 00:36:13,453
compared to the legacy social media
and algorithms versus a sort of

511
00:36:13,453 --> 00:36:15,363
inherently non algorithmic approach?

512
00:36:16,063 --> 00:36:20,853
Well, yeah, I mean, it's all a function of
stuff that still needs to get implemented.

513
00:36:21,449 --> 00:36:25,119
it's important to look
at Nostr on a trajectory.

514
00:36:26,129 --> 00:36:31,629
So, if we back up a year, let's
say, um, it was borderline unusable.

515
00:36:31,649 --> 00:36:33,169
This includes Primal, right?

516
00:36:33,189 --> 00:36:39,179
Like, things were just, uh You
know, not there, uh, and there, you

517
00:36:39,179 --> 00:36:42,599
know, the meme that I was referring
to earlier on in the conversation

518
00:36:42,599 --> 00:36:44,129
that Nostr was already broken.

519
00:36:44,449 --> 00:36:48,859
That's like an ongoing meme that we,
we developers, at least on Nostr, have

520
00:36:48,889 --> 00:36:52,449
everything's broken on Nostr, but we're
working on it, we're improving it.

521
00:36:53,009 --> 00:36:56,859
So, uh, if you look at where
everything was a year ago.

522
00:36:57,399 --> 00:37:00,449
Compared to where it's now, I'm
sure everyone will agree that

523
00:37:00,559 --> 00:37:02,129
we're seeing a massive improvement.

524
00:37:02,639 --> 00:37:07,949
And the types of discovery features
that we're missing, essentially, that

525
00:37:07,949 --> 00:37:13,199
you just pointed out, Luke, it's just
a matter of building the stuff out.

526
00:37:13,619 --> 00:37:16,194
And we at Primal, we're building that.

527
00:37:16,444 --> 00:37:20,634
Uh, as are other developers of
other kind of clients and services.

528
00:37:21,154 --> 00:37:27,714
But what's interesting is that the level
of kind of collaboration of, uh, kind of

529
00:37:28,334 --> 00:37:34,234
building these features out on a, on an
open protocol, where, uh, let's say if

530
00:37:34,234 --> 00:37:38,754
we broadly speaking can divide, divide
this kind of functionality into client

531
00:37:38,784 --> 00:37:44,774
apps, And then some services, and services
could include things like discovery

532
00:37:44,774 --> 00:37:50,714
services, like custom feeds, search, those
types of things, but also media hosting.

533
00:37:51,389 --> 00:37:56,659
services, uh, spam, filters,
things like that, right?

534
00:37:57,447 --> 00:38:02,397
Nostr is being built in such a
modularized way, and kind of the dream

535
00:38:02,427 --> 00:38:09,802
is that uh, within a client app like
Primal, you can decide Who, which feeds

536
00:38:09,802 --> 00:38:14,452
do you, you, you want to subscribe
through to like, so the feeds that

537
00:38:14,482 --> 00:38:16,462
might have nothing to do with primal.

538
00:38:17,112 --> 00:38:21,672
Uh, so you kind of curate
your list of feeds, uh, from

539
00:38:21,672 --> 00:38:22,932
all kinds of feed providers.

540
00:38:23,442 --> 00:38:26,442
You, uh, set your search
and discovery provider.

541
00:38:26,447 --> 00:38:28,962
You set your media hosting provider.

542
00:38:28,962 --> 00:38:30,842
You set who your.

543
00:38:31,377 --> 00:38:35,747
Who you want to rely on for some
kind of spam filtering and so forth.

544
00:38:36,207 --> 00:38:42,537
And, uh, at Primal, we are building
both the services as well as the

545
00:38:42,537 --> 00:38:44,667
clients to make this possible.

546
00:38:44,967 --> 00:38:51,087
And the idea is that our services could
also be, uh, used in a third party

547
00:38:51,127 --> 00:38:56,287
clients, uh, to the extent that, uh,
uh, those users find them valuable.

548
00:38:57,087 --> 00:39:01,477
Uh, so all of this, again, is a stark
contrast to the closed systems that

549
00:39:01,477 --> 00:39:03,407
we are ultimately competing with.

550
00:39:03,797 --> 00:39:08,537
And my point, and the answer
to your question is, this gets

551
00:39:08,537 --> 00:39:10,297
incredibly awesome over time.

552
00:39:10,857 --> 00:39:14,957
If you just look at the rate of
improvements, and the fact that

553
00:39:14,957 --> 00:39:20,457
it's all being built out in the
open, and, uh, just about everything

554
00:39:20,467 --> 00:39:22,677
built on Nostr is, is open source.

555
00:39:23,349 --> 00:39:26,459
every good idea will get
replicated by everyone.

556
00:39:27,243 --> 00:39:34,913
And, uh, bad ideas will just fall
off, and, uh, we will very soon reach

557
00:39:34,953 --> 00:39:41,033
the capabilities of the legacy web
platforms, and then we'll just surpass

558
00:39:41,033 --> 00:39:42,363
them and leave them in the dust.

559
00:39:42,563 --> 00:39:47,423
And they won't be long until
they will look dated and

560
00:39:47,613 --> 00:39:49,203
feel like relics of the past.

561
00:39:49,983 --> 00:39:52,753
Uh, I'm pretty, uh, bullish about this.

562
00:39:53,276 --> 00:39:55,796
so it's a matter of, it's
just a function of time.

563
00:39:56,391 --> 00:40:00,011
And, uh, and the effort that
all the devs are putting in.

564
00:43:15,943 --> 00:43:19,793
All right, let me devil's advocate
that one to try to poke holes in

565
00:43:19,793 --> 00:43:21,753
that argument for argument's sake.

566
00:43:22,353 --> 00:43:30,898
let's say, um, the average user of
social media does not want, this options.

567
00:43:30,958 --> 00:43:32,688
They want convenience, right?

568
00:43:32,688 --> 00:43:36,838
They don't want to be able to
select their feed algorithm.

569
00:43:36,848 --> 00:43:39,788
They want their feed algorithm
to automatically select for them

570
00:43:39,788 --> 00:43:44,678
what they look at because they're,
Basically, the social media fees

571
00:43:44,688 --> 00:43:50,688
have basically replaced the TV, uh,
in stupefying the general public.

572
00:43:50,988 --> 00:43:55,248
So, so how, how does not Nostr
ever get over that hurdle?

573
00:43:55,248 --> 00:44:00,468
I mean, I seem so many things that you
could potentially do as a bad actor.

574
00:44:00,478 --> 00:44:06,328
So like, for instance, if I If I want
to advertise my Nostr post, I fire

575
00:44:06,328 --> 00:44:16,308
up a million, uh, key pairs and I sap
myself from 999, 000 of them, uh, just

576
00:44:16,308 --> 00:44:18,808
to get my, my own post up in the feeds.

577
00:44:18,878 --> 00:44:24,108
And I simultaneously get all the
attention and I DDoS, uh, attack

578
00:44:24,128 --> 00:44:26,428
the network and I, I fuck things up.

579
00:44:27,048 --> 00:44:29,438
And also like what's preventing.

580
00:44:30,048 --> 00:44:37,498
Uh, this from developing into, uh, the
same type of monolithical, uh, monopoly

581
00:44:37,518 --> 00:44:41,998
things we see on the, in the legacy
internet where, where, because it's

582
00:44:41,998 --> 00:44:44,708
basically the email protocols, right?

583
00:44:44,748 --> 00:44:47,413
Which sort of centralized into Gmail and.

584
00:44:47,413 --> 00:44:53,753
Hotmail, or whatever else they're
called, and only a few, select few use

585
00:44:53,753 --> 00:44:59,563
ProtonMail and these alternatives, right,
and even fewer run their own SMT or

586
00:44:59,623 --> 00:45:01,263
POP3 server or whatever they're called.

587
00:45:01,583 --> 00:45:05,653
So, so, yeah, there's a question in
here somewhere, what would you say

588
00:45:05,693 --> 00:45:07,503
to that kind of criticism in general?

589
00:45:08,808 --> 00:45:11,448
think I can identify
three questions there.

590
00:45:11,698 --> 00:45:13,158
Three completely separate questions.

591
00:45:13,158 --> 00:45:14,598
So let's unpack them one by one.

592
00:45:14,888 --> 00:45:15,088
So the

593
00:45:15,383 --> 00:45:15,993
I couldn't.

594
00:45:16,475 --> 00:45:21,935
so, so if I followed you correctly,
uh, your first question was, uh, what

595
00:45:21,935 --> 00:45:25,495
do we do with users who don't want
to, don't want the bells and whistles?

596
00:45:25,495 --> 00:45:29,545
They just want simple apps like TikTok
that open and give them their feed.

597
00:45:29,545 --> 00:45:30,885
Like, that's question number one.

598
00:45:31,370 --> 00:45:33,450
Well, well, no, no, not really.

599
00:45:33,710 --> 00:45:35,100
The question is more like.

600
00:45:35,470 --> 00:45:40,520
Um, will you ever get the, because
there's a first mover advantage for the

601
00:45:40,520 --> 00:45:45,800
old legacy apps, like, so, so how, how
can Nostr ever compete with that and,

602
00:45:45,840 --> 00:45:51,540
and achieve the same network effect if
it requires the users to be so active?

603
00:45:52,235 --> 00:45:55,845
Won't the, won't the old users
just stay at their old platforms?

604
00:45:55,845 --> 00:46:00,005
Aren't they already lured in and sort
of like glued to their TV sets already?

605
00:46:00,005 --> 00:46:06,855
And will just being better in general
really pull them over to your network?

606
00:46:06,855 --> 00:46:08,685
Or will they stay in the old system?

607
00:46:08,845 --> 00:46:10,265
Something like that is the question.

608
00:46:10,850 --> 00:46:13,760
that is the toughest challenge
that Nostr is facing.

609
00:46:13,780 --> 00:46:18,060
So dealing with battling network
effects that have already been

610
00:46:18,100 --> 00:46:23,780
strongly established with the
incumbents, you know, like Twitter,

611
00:46:24,050 --> 00:46:26,360
Facebook, Reddit, and the others.

612
00:46:26,973 --> 00:46:31,493
I don't think that features
will get users to move over.

613
00:46:31,918 --> 00:46:36,508
Um, in terms of bells and whistles,
because they get enough of bells and

614
00:46:36,508 --> 00:46:41,488
whistles everywhere else, and the biggest
feature in, let's say, social media apps

615
00:46:41,518 --> 00:46:46,028
is the network itself, the notion that,
you know, that everyone's already there.

616
00:46:46,918 --> 00:46:53,128
Uh, so this is a big, uh, so again,
we're referring now to a subset

617
00:46:53,128 --> 00:46:58,154
of Nostr applications that, are,
let's say, focusing on social media.

618
00:46:58,364 --> 00:46:59,994
It's just kind of for clarity here.

619
00:47:01,531 --> 00:47:07,981
this is a major problem, and I think,
uh, interesting features like zaps,

620
00:47:07,991 --> 00:47:14,461
for example, um, might be attractive to
Bitcoiners, but to a larger audience,

621
00:47:14,991 --> 00:47:19,691
that's kind of like, uh, it's questionable
whether that something like that will

622
00:47:19,701 --> 00:47:21,341
bring them over and get them to stay.

623
00:47:22,098 --> 00:47:24,318
I think at the end of the
day, it's going to be content.

624
00:47:25,308 --> 00:47:31,748
so, so when it comes to general
audiences, uh, the value proposition

625
00:47:31,748 --> 00:47:33,978
of Nostr at the moment is not amazing.

626
00:47:33,978 --> 00:47:37,208
It's, uh, it's like, okay, well,
this is an interesting new network.

627
00:47:37,208 --> 00:47:41,138
Maybe it has some kind of censorship
resistance features, which let's

628
00:47:41,188 --> 00:47:45,138
say the majority doesn't, let's be
honest, majority doesn't care about.

629
00:47:45,908 --> 00:47:49,098
Uh, so it's a tough, it's a tough
pitch to the general audience.

630
00:47:50,278 --> 00:47:53,738
However, to content creators, I think.

631
00:47:54,303 --> 00:47:58,673
Uh, it, that type of pitch
becomes more interesting.

632
00:47:59,523 --> 00:48:04,773
And if we can get a certain kind of a
critical mass of content creators to

633
00:48:04,803 --> 00:48:09,983
adopt Nostr, at least partially, at least
kind of in addition to all the other

634
00:48:10,123 --> 00:48:14,233
platforms that were there already, uh,
you know, present, just like you guys.

635
00:48:14,613 --> 00:48:17,688
So you guys are actually a
great, uh, example of that.

636
00:48:18,008 --> 00:48:23,979
How this might evolve, pitch to content
creators is completely different.

637
00:48:24,599 --> 00:48:29,819
The pitch is, whatever you
build on Nostr is yours forever.

638
00:48:30,502 --> 00:48:33,872
unlike all the other platforms,
you build your audience on Nostr,

639
00:48:34,552 --> 00:48:36,132
that cannot be taken away from you.

640
00:48:36,432 --> 00:48:42,252
As long as you control the key to your
content, uh, and your online identity,

641
00:48:42,758 --> 00:48:44,208
no one can take away your followers.

642
00:48:44,308 --> 00:48:45,328
So that's interesting.

643
00:48:46,055 --> 00:48:51,850
And when it comes to, uh, compensation,
of revenue coming in, as we

644
00:48:51,850 --> 00:48:53,570
said previously, how about 100%?

645
00:48:54,506 --> 00:48:58,796
And we get you to decide
what, how that gets split.

646
00:49:00,916 --> 00:49:06,916
Correct me if I'm wrong, I'm not a content
creator, you guys are, uh, but, uh, you

647
00:49:06,916 --> 00:49:12,696
know, to me that seems like it would be
an interesting and intriguing pitch to a

648
00:49:12,706 --> 00:49:17,476
content creator, even though it currently
comes along with a, with a relatively,

649
00:49:17,506 --> 00:49:19,366
well, very small network comparatively.

650
00:49:19,606 --> 00:49:20,416
to the other ones.

651
00:49:20,916 --> 00:49:28,926
But maybe, uh, it's justifiable to spend
a bit of time to incorporate Nostr into

652
00:49:28,926 --> 00:49:31,836
your kind of publishing activities,
but curious to get your take on it.

653
00:49:33,183 --> 00:49:36,963
We absolutely want to do that, and
we already do that, and we plan to

654
00:49:36,963 --> 00:49:43,253
do more of it because as you say that
the, like we have, we have talks me

655
00:49:43,258 --> 00:49:47,633
and Luke all the time about what this
thing is and what we want to do with

656
00:49:47,633 --> 00:49:52,403
it and what we can achieve with it and
what, what the purpose of sitting here

657
00:49:52,403 --> 00:49:54,023
talking to interesting people every day.

658
00:49:54,548 --> 00:49:55,118
Really is.

659
00:49:55,778 --> 00:50:01,618
And to us, we want these messages
and what we talk about on the show

660
00:50:01,618 --> 00:50:06,638
to go out to quality listeners,
rather than a quantity of listeners.

661
00:50:06,998 --> 00:50:11,228
And of course, there's no clear
line, distinct line between the two.

662
00:50:11,228 --> 00:50:14,648
You can't really have one without the
other because the quality listeners won't

663
00:50:14,668 --> 00:50:18,808
find you if you don't make at least a
little bit of noise on the internet.

664
00:50:18,808 --> 00:50:21,288
So you need to play,
play these games, right?

665
00:50:21,468 --> 00:50:22,168
And, and, uh, and play them.

666
00:50:22,778 --> 00:50:27,508
And to get the kind of following that
you really want, because I want all

667
00:50:27,508 --> 00:50:32,748
the fans of this show to be people that
I'd gladly go out and have a pint with

668
00:50:32,749 --> 00:50:36,688
and, and talk Bitcoin or Nostr with,
like, or, or anything else interesting.

669
00:50:37,156 --> 00:50:41,096
and I think we almost have that
every time I, I meet a fan of the

670
00:50:41,096 --> 00:50:43,226
show, it's a person I like, like, so.

671
00:50:43,781 --> 00:50:44,791
It's, it's great.

672
00:50:45,431 --> 00:50:48,511
but of course, yeah, so right back at you.

673
00:50:48,511 --> 00:50:50,981
If you want to see more
of us on Nostr, well,

674
00:50:53,561 --> 00:50:59,301
zap away, or, uh, I mean, we're going
to go where we get appreciated, but

675
00:50:59,301 --> 00:51:04,341
we're also appreciative of the fact that
we can own our own content on Nostr.

676
00:51:04,341 --> 00:51:05,931
So yeah, absolutely.

677
00:51:05,931 --> 00:51:08,781
We will increase our presence on Nostr.

678
00:51:09,456 --> 00:51:12,566
Have you considered, I don't know
if you're aware of this feature that

679
00:51:12,586 --> 00:51:16,256
I think Pablo rolled out relatively
recently, where you can create some

680
00:51:16,256 --> 00:51:23,019
sort of, uh, like a backstage, setup
for maybe some exclusive content

681
00:51:23,019 --> 00:51:25,089
for people who subscribe to your.

682
00:51:25,529 --> 00:51:25,849
Content.

683
00:51:25,879 --> 00:51:30,209
I don't know how that fits in the overall
content strategy for you, but it's an

684
00:51:30,209 --> 00:51:32,479
interesting, uh, addition, hopefully.

685
00:51:33,180 --> 00:51:36,050
Yeah, I, I think I heard him
talk about it on Madeira.

686
00:51:36,050 --> 00:51:40,110
I find that there's a lot of memories
to flip through from Madeira.

687
00:51:40,140 --> 00:51:41,550
So I don't remember it.

688
00:51:41,670 --> 00:51:46,990
It's all a blur, but, but anyway, that,
yeah, that's sort of like a paywall.

689
00:51:46,990 --> 00:51:48,540
And we, we try not to do that.

690
00:51:48,540 --> 00:51:52,760
We want to be as, as, uh, open
with what we create as we can.

691
00:51:52,760 --> 00:51:55,900
I, we're not big believers
in intellectual property.

692
00:51:56,650 --> 00:51:57,370
Okay, right.

693
00:51:58,920 --> 00:52:02,640
so, so, uh, so, uh, but, but
that's a balance too, of course.

694
00:52:02,830 --> 00:52:03,510
And yeah.

695
00:52:03,670 --> 00:52:09,270
Um, I posted one book on Nostr, but it's
unsure if I'll post the others anytime

696
00:52:09,270 --> 00:52:11,950
soon, especially if it breaks clients.

697
00:52:12,690 --> 00:52:15,530
So, yeah, that's the
general attitude, I think.

698
00:52:17,770 --> 00:52:22,430
What's interesting, I think, for people,
uh, that produce content, especially

699
00:52:22,460 --> 00:52:27,260
the type of content that you guys
produce, there is something Interesting

700
00:52:27,260 --> 00:52:34,570
about signing that with your key
before you put it out into the world.

701
00:52:35,260 --> 00:52:38,250
It's, it's quite unique to have that.

702
00:52:38,500 --> 00:52:40,960
And you know, you
publish it anywhere else.

703
00:52:41,260 --> 00:52:43,250
There is no proof.

704
00:52:43,550 --> 00:52:47,180
People can't know that this
wasn't tampered with in any way.

705
00:52:47,180 --> 00:52:52,980
They can't, they can't know for sure that
this was, uh, your own words unaltered.

706
00:52:53,380 --> 00:52:55,860
Uh, but with Nostr, you get that for free.

707
00:52:55,870 --> 00:52:57,590
You, you sign your note.

708
00:52:58,060 --> 00:52:59,270
And that's forever.

709
00:52:59,440 --> 00:53:02,270
We have cryptographic
proof that Knut said this.

710
00:53:03,320 --> 00:53:06,700
Uh, and we know that for sure
because it's signed with his key.

711
00:53:07,632 --> 00:53:11,872
Well, how do you know that
the, that the one signing off

712
00:53:11,902 --> 00:53:13,762
as me really is me, though?

713
00:53:13,772 --> 00:53:17,862
This is a five year old question,
but, like, someone else could pose

714
00:53:17,892 --> 00:53:22,222
as me, with another key pair, and
just say, I'm Knut's new account,

715
00:53:22,242 --> 00:53:26,312
don't worry about the old one, it's
hacked, and pretend to be me, right?

716
00:53:26,957 --> 00:53:31,487
So this is the kind of question around
bots and impersonators and so forth.

717
00:53:31,517 --> 00:53:37,117
So, for the listeners, anyone can create
a key pair super easily, and then you

718
00:53:37,137 --> 00:53:41,817
can copy somebody's profile metadata
very easily, you know, the profile

719
00:53:41,827 --> 00:53:44,477
photo, labels and so forth, the bio.

720
00:53:44,817 --> 00:53:46,137
And there we have another Knut.

721
00:53:46,794 --> 00:53:50,134
the answer is, uh, Web of Trust, again.

722
00:53:50,624 --> 00:53:56,214
And these are fairly simple algorithms
that are able to filter out the bots.

723
00:53:56,754 --> 00:54:05,104
And, uh, we have enough of a user base
on Nostr to be able to decipher real, uh,

724
00:54:05,154 --> 00:54:08,304
Knut from maybe thousands of fake Knuts.

725
00:54:09,204 --> 00:54:10,514
Uh, and this works.

726
00:54:10,574 --> 00:54:11,374
It works today.

727
00:54:12,454 --> 00:54:13,584
And it's actually,

728
00:54:13,974 --> 00:54:17,334
people, like, vouching for me being me?

729
00:54:17,514 --> 00:54:20,904
Sorry for interrupting, but
is there a vouching thing?

730
00:54:22,214 --> 00:54:23,674
vouching by following you.

731
00:54:23,941 --> 00:54:28,761
and this kind of implicitly just happens
through the follow relationships and in

732
00:54:28,761 --> 00:54:30,891
the graph, nothing else needs to be done.

733
00:54:31,621 --> 00:54:34,591
You can very easily filter out bots.

734
00:54:34,741 --> 00:54:40,541
You can filter out, uh, even if humans
are trying to bring in a million bots

735
00:54:40,541 --> 00:54:43,811
or something like that through their
human account, that gets filtered

736
00:54:44,081 --> 00:54:45,561
through the, through the algorithm.

737
00:54:46,081 --> 00:54:52,971
And, uh, this is a solved problem on
Nostr, and I'll just underline once again,

738
00:54:53,431 --> 00:55:00,599
no one's in charge, uh, it's just network
participants, uh, acting in their own self

739
00:55:00,599 --> 00:55:03,859
interest, and this thing somehow works.

740
00:55:04,364 --> 00:55:08,644
And we have maybe a couple hundred
thousand human accounts on Nostr and,

741
00:55:08,907 --> 00:55:11,357
this, and we have this capability today.

742
00:55:11,844 --> 00:55:16,514
I mean, it's great because, as you say,
like, when you give something away to

743
00:55:16,574 --> 00:55:22,934
another entity, especially going into
the future here with AI things becoming

744
00:55:22,934 --> 00:55:25,804
better and better, you never know
what people are going to do to your

745
00:55:25,804 --> 00:55:28,434
voice or to video recordings of you.

746
00:55:29,324 --> 00:55:34,154
It's very easy to impersonate other people
today, much easier than ever before,

747
00:55:34,174 --> 00:55:36,664
so maybe this is the remedy for that.

748
00:55:37,182 --> 00:55:39,292
Sounds like you think
that that is the case.

749
00:55:40,722 --> 00:55:44,302
it's a remedy to a problem that's going
to get a lot worse, like you said.

750
00:55:44,812 --> 00:55:49,202
And, uh, I haven't thought
about this enough, but it,

751
00:55:49,372 --> 00:55:51,072
it might be the only remedy.

752
00:55:51,831 --> 00:55:57,221
Signed content by cryptographic
identities through, uh, identified

753
00:55:57,221 --> 00:56:01,616
through a global, uh, Web of Trust
might be the only solution to this.

754
00:56:02,632 --> 00:56:03,142
Okay.

755
00:56:03,772 --> 00:56:10,142
The only thing here is like, uh,
that comes to mind, uh, in terms of

756
00:56:10,432 --> 00:56:15,322
actual protection from, From bots
and the likes of them, uh, in the

757
00:56:15,322 --> 00:56:19,322
future, because these bots are going
to get more sophisticated as well.

758
00:56:19,342 --> 00:56:19,762
Right.

759
00:56:19,852 --> 00:56:25,779
And, um, the saying in Bitcoin goes,
not your keys, not your coins, but isn't

760
00:56:25,809 --> 00:56:30,749
the flip side of that, not your coins,
not your information, because if you

761
00:56:30,749 --> 00:56:36,139
don't have an actual asset attached
to the information, like you have in

762
00:56:36,139 --> 00:56:41,637
Bitcoin, Then it's much harder to know
if that information is actually true.

763
00:56:41,897 --> 00:56:43,327
Does this make any sense to you?

764
00:56:43,337 --> 00:56:47,627
Like, is there, is there a flip
side of the Bitcoin ethos here that,

765
00:56:47,637 --> 00:56:53,267
that is yet to be explored in the
Nostr, um, under the Nostr umbrella?

766
00:56:53,907 --> 00:56:54,347
I don't know.

767
00:56:54,387 --> 00:56:57,237
I'm not sure if I follow the question.

768
00:56:57,357 --> 00:56:58,827
Maybe if you want to elaborate on it.

769
00:56:59,378 --> 00:57:02,168
Yeah, maybe I'm just
trying to sound smart here.

770
00:57:02,168 --> 00:57:03,128
What do you think, Luke?

771
00:57:03,358 --> 00:57:04,058
Uh, did you

772
00:57:05,768 --> 00:57:12,608
Well, okay, if I would sort of try to
translate Knut's Knutisms, uh, the,

773
00:57:12,678 --> 00:57:17,818
um, uh, I guess, I guess one thought
here that comes to mind for me is that,

774
00:57:17,828 --> 00:57:23,511
is that, Bitcoin as the decentralized
monetary network actually does have

775
00:57:23,511 --> 00:57:28,201
some, some capabilities to be sort of
a spam defense and then Nostr being

776
00:57:28,201 --> 00:57:32,661
the communication protocol that has the
public private key identification system.

777
00:57:33,001 --> 00:57:36,071
These two things can actually work
entirely interchangeably, right?

778
00:57:36,071 --> 00:57:39,561
And they, and they do with, with
the, uh, you, you can have your

779
00:57:39,561 --> 00:57:43,661
same address for receiving and
sending from, from Lightning, right?

780
00:57:43,661 --> 00:57:47,301
And, uh, and so I guess the
interconnectedness between those

781
00:57:47,411 --> 00:57:52,646
two things is like, um, To what
extent is, is Bitcoin required

782
00:57:52,676 --> 00:57:54,226
to actually make Nostr work?

783
00:57:54,226 --> 00:58:01,826
Like, grounding Nostr in the monetary
system that is going to change the

784
00:58:01,826 --> 00:58:05,276
world and then become the, the base
of the monetary system for the next

785
00:58:05,276 --> 00:58:09,986
thousand years or something like that,
or ever, forever, or whatever it is.

786
00:58:10,528 --> 00:58:11,588
That's a great question.

787
00:58:11,748 --> 00:58:20,798
So, um, so Bitcoin and Nostr are separate
protocols, separate and related protocols.

788
00:58:21,108 --> 00:58:23,685
So each protocol, stands on its own.

789
00:58:23,795 --> 00:58:25,755
It doesn't need the other one to function.

790
00:58:26,428 --> 00:58:29,668
But I think they have a symbiotic
relationship in the sense that

791
00:58:29,718 --> 00:58:31,208
each makes the other one better.

792
00:58:32,098 --> 00:58:37,228
And, uh, it's fairly obvious
how Bitcoin makes Nostr better.

793
00:58:37,848 --> 00:58:44,008
Uh, we, uh, already talked about
zaps and this ability to potentially

794
00:58:44,288 --> 00:58:48,128
reshape the incentive structure for
the web using Nostr and Bitcoin.

795
00:58:48,908 --> 00:58:52,518
I think it's a little bit less
obvious, uh, to Bitcoiners,

796
00:58:52,518 --> 00:58:55,338
especially those Bitcoiners who
are not paying attention to Nostr.

797
00:58:55,538 --> 00:58:59,278
It's, it's less obvious how
Nostr makes Bitcoin better.

798
00:58:59,878 --> 00:59:03,368
And, uh, I think those who are sleep,
those Bitcoiners who are sleeping

799
00:59:03,368 --> 00:59:04,988
on Nostr are kind of missing out.

800
00:59:05,028 --> 00:59:09,558
And, um, this is one of my
Uh, favorite topics, actually,

801
00:59:09,558 --> 00:59:11,228
so I'm happy to dive into it.

802
00:59:11,772 --> 00:59:14,362
I don't know if I'm answering
your question by this, but,

803
00:59:14,472 --> 00:59:16,752
uh I'll dive in anyway.

804
00:59:17,112 --> 00:59:17,562
Okay.

805
00:59:17,682 --> 00:59:18,092
All right.

806
00:59:18,462 --> 00:59:23,062
So Nostr makes Bitcoin better
in a number of different ways.

807
00:59:23,382 --> 00:59:28,652
So the first one is, since we have
this global web of trust of public

808
00:59:28,652 --> 00:59:35,392
identities, most of whom have their
Lightning address defined as a part of

809
00:59:35,392 --> 00:59:41,992
their public profile, what has emerged
here within, with Nostr is the global.

810
00:59:42,392 --> 00:59:44,262
Public Lightning Directory.

811
00:59:45,422 --> 00:59:50,602
So, uh, to send payments between
Bitcoiners, you can literally

812
00:59:50,602 --> 00:59:53,882
look someone up and send them a
payment because we have Nostr.

813
00:59:54,662 --> 01:00:00,292
And you, you look them up, you literally
go to Primal or Mutiny or any wallet that

814
01:00:00,312 --> 01:00:02,712
supports, uh, that has Nostr integration.

815
01:00:03,082 --> 01:00:07,197
And by the way, I think All Bitcoin
wallets will have Nostr integration.

816
01:00:07,387 --> 01:00:08,897
This is a no brainer.

817
01:00:09,197 --> 01:00:10,307
It's just a matter of time.

818
01:00:11,787 --> 01:00:17,247
This is like a massive improvement
in the UX of sending payments.

819
01:00:17,757 --> 01:00:20,657
Think about the situation where,
let's say, you're splitting your

820
01:00:20,717 --> 01:00:22,427
lunch bill among five people.

821
01:00:22,757 --> 01:00:25,537
Currently, the person who paid
needs to create four invoices.

822
01:00:25,842 --> 01:00:30,312
One by one, and then it needs to be
scanned and so forth without Nostr.

823
01:00:30,602 --> 01:00:35,112
But with Nostr, everyone looks up the
person, sends them the payment, it's done,

824
01:00:35,712 --> 01:00:40,372
uh, and the person who paid it doesn't
need to do anything, which seems fair.

825
01:00:40,942 --> 01:00:42,232
Uh, so that's.

826
01:00:42,722 --> 01:00:47,502
The first and kind of more obvious, uh,
way in which Nostr makes Bitcoin better.

827
01:00:48,322 --> 01:00:54,852
Uh, then we have, uh, Mint
discovery for Chomi on eCash.

828
01:00:55,648 --> 01:00:57,548
this is an extremely important topic.

829
01:00:57,558 --> 01:01:02,568
First of all, Chomi on eCash is
extremely exciting and probably

830
01:01:02,568 --> 01:01:04,628
the future of Bitcoin payments.

831
01:01:05,378 --> 01:01:11,043
It might take some time and especially
currently it's, it's, uh, um, Questionable

832
01:01:11,043 --> 01:01:16,516
whether commercial entities are going
to be able to, uh, provide mints, uh,

833
01:01:16,516 --> 01:01:21,056
or even participate in mint feder in,
in mint federations, like for FettyMint.

834
01:01:21,806 --> 01:01:27,336
So, there is this inherent
problem of mint discovery.

835
01:01:27,346 --> 01:01:32,236
Like, if I'm a new eCash user, let's
say I'm a Cashew user and I'm trying

836
01:01:32,236 --> 01:01:37,996
to decide which Cashew mint to use,
I can use my Nostr web of trust to

837
01:01:37,996 --> 01:01:43,033
see which, users I'm connected to
are using which mints and basically,

838
01:01:43,113 --> 01:01:45,393
uh, provide mint discovery that way.

839
01:01:45,799 --> 01:01:51,089
this is already being used in,
uh, Cashew wallets and in, and

840
01:01:51,149 --> 01:01:53,049
Mutiny, uh, for Fetty Mint.

841
01:01:53,449 --> 01:01:54,539
It's a massive community.

842
01:01:54,804 --> 01:01:59,444
Uh, addition in terms of
practical capabilities for,

843
01:01:59,504 --> 01:02:01,014
for Bitcoin, uh, payments.

844
01:02:01,944 --> 01:02:07,454
then we have things like,
uh, just protecting speech.

845
01:02:08,384 --> 01:02:10,144
It's kind of a big deal for Bitcoin too.

846
01:02:10,484 --> 01:02:16,839
Let's say you're a monetary, uh,
maximalist, uh, as maybe A lot of us are.

847
01:02:17,379 --> 01:02:22,149
Uh, let's say you're not too interested in
payments, uh, in the, in the short term.

848
01:02:22,559 --> 01:02:27,232
Uh, you, but you care about
the monetary, kind of base

849
01:02:27,242 --> 01:02:29,552
money capabilities of Bitcoin.

850
01:02:30,128 --> 01:02:35,174
Well, if, The fiat system is
designed to steal from you.

851
01:02:35,504 --> 01:02:37,754
That's kind of the core of the system.

852
01:02:38,054 --> 01:02:45,434
And the only way the fiat system can
perpetuate this is by lying about

853
01:02:45,814 --> 01:02:50,064
what they're doing and is by kind of
controlling the flow of information.

854
01:02:50,624 --> 01:02:56,014
Uh, and, uh, Nostr has the
capability to break that.

855
01:02:56,814 --> 01:03:02,224
Uh, so even if you're, uh, if
your main concern about Bitcoin is

856
01:03:02,244 --> 01:03:07,214
protecting the monetary qualities of
Bitcoin, Nostr still is, uh, relevant.

857
01:03:07,730 --> 01:03:11,150
there are, like, I think a couple
of other, um, examples where

858
01:03:11,230 --> 01:03:14,040
Nostr makes Bitcoin better.

859
01:03:14,355 --> 01:03:15,845
let's say onboarding new Bitcoiners.

860
01:03:16,677 --> 01:03:23,636
This is, this is something we're
observing with Nostr, where Nostr is

861
01:03:23,636 --> 01:03:25,166
onboarding users who are not Bitcoiners.

862
01:03:26,066 --> 01:03:31,346
And then through either the fact that
they're being exposed to a lot of

863
01:03:31,346 --> 01:03:35,916
Bitcoiners at Nostr currently, maybe
that in combination of kind of being

864
01:03:35,916 --> 01:03:38,886
intrigued about the zapping capabilities.

865
01:03:39,326 --> 01:03:45,791
We are actually observing many new
Bitcoiners being, created through

866
01:03:45,811 --> 01:03:51,921
by coming through Nostr, through
a more casual kind of, um, uh,

867
01:03:51,921 --> 01:03:57,717
environment and, taking a little
bit of time to actually wake up

868
01:03:57,777 --> 01:04:00,017
and, you know, take the orange pill.

869
01:04:00,417 --> 01:04:03,667
And at Primal, we are quite
interested in this dynamic.

870
01:04:04,217 --> 01:04:08,747
And we've decided to build a wallet
into the, our, into our clients.

871
01:04:09,407 --> 01:04:14,067
Uh, to make this process even smoother,
so we can talk more about that.

872
01:04:14,107 --> 01:04:17,924
So that's another reason why,
Bitcoiners should care about Nostr.

873
01:04:18,204 --> 01:04:23,831
And then maybe the final one is, those
of us who are already on Nostr are

874
01:04:23,831 --> 01:04:30,041
noticing that the vibe, uh, and the
quality of the conversation on Nostr

875
01:04:30,041 --> 01:04:34,096
is different than it is on Twitter
and, and, uh, Reddit, and so forth.

876
01:04:34,096 --> 01:04:37,356
It's much more informal.

877
01:04:37,416 --> 01:04:43,296
It's less, how would I say it, like
when you, when you, it's less official

878
01:04:43,366 --> 01:04:47,686
sounding, it's less defensive, you
know, like a lot of times when you

879
01:04:47,686 --> 01:04:51,986
post something on Twitter, you're
kind of preparing for the trolls to

880
01:04:52,036 --> 01:04:55,426
come out and you're kind of, you're
forming your argument, you know, in

881
01:04:55,426 --> 01:04:59,346
a defensive manner where you're kind
of, Pre empting the attacks that are

882
01:04:59,346 --> 01:05:01,106
inevitably coming and stuff like that.

883
01:05:01,557 --> 01:05:05,067
and then there's just a kind of
the, the general vibe on Twitter

884
01:05:05,067 --> 01:05:10,017
is, uh, can be quite kind of
negative and draining and so forth.

885
01:05:10,287 --> 01:05:11,427
This is not the case on Nostr.

886
01:05:12,107 --> 01:05:17,807
If you, uh, come to, uh, on Nostr and
you, you kind of scroll, instead of doom

887
01:05:17,807 --> 01:05:23,182
scrolling, it's kind of hope scrolling
and you see, You know, people like Jack

888
01:05:23,182 --> 01:05:27,332
Dorsey being a little bit more open than
they would be maybe on, on Twitter, even

889
01:05:27,332 --> 01:05:31,252
though this is like an open network and
anyone can read it quite easily, can,

890
01:05:31,472 --> 01:05:35,512
can access this content in an easier
manner than on Twitter, without being

891
01:05:35,512 --> 01:05:37,852
logged in, the tone is somehow different.

892
01:05:38,677 --> 01:05:43,167
So I think, I'm hoping that they've kind
of outlined a number of good arguments

893
01:05:43,167 --> 01:05:46,187
for Bitcoiners to take a closer look.

894
01:05:46,417 --> 01:05:52,527
And then I guess the last, the last reason
maybe, this is becoming like the Spanish

895
01:05:52,537 --> 01:05:54,747
Inquisition sketch, there's one more.

896
01:05:55,276 --> 01:05:58,176
the last reason is, are you kidding me?

897
01:05:58,721 --> 01:05:59,101
Reason.

898
01:06:00,391 --> 01:06:04,861
And the are you kidding me
question is, are you kidding me?

899
01:06:04,861 --> 01:06:10,391
You're a bitcoiner and you're, you're not
okay with someone else holding keys to

900
01:06:10,391 --> 01:06:15,181
your money, but you're okay with someone
else holding the keys to your speech?

901
01:06:15,731 --> 01:06:16,471
Are you kidding me?

902
01:06:17,121 --> 01:06:22,661
Like, you know, all the censorship
aside, anyone, like, Elon

903
01:06:22,661 --> 01:06:23,811
can post from your account.

904
01:06:25,151 --> 01:06:25,941
That's insane.

905
01:06:26,612 --> 01:06:31,852
I think we will look back at this,
uh, you know, stage of our history as

906
01:06:31,872 --> 01:06:37,092
kind of the stone age of our online
lives before they were improved

907
01:06:37,112 --> 01:06:38,892
for the better forever by Nostr.

908
01:06:39,892 --> 01:06:42,622
Yeah, this fantastic, fantastic pitch.

909
01:06:42,632 --> 01:06:44,662
And I love all the points.

910
01:06:44,762 --> 01:06:46,382
Makes me think of start nine.

911
01:06:47,591 --> 01:06:52,481
the only thing I could think of as, as
like FUD for you to debunk here regarding

912
01:06:52,481 --> 01:06:59,011
these points is the, um, Uh, turning Nostr
into a registry for people's lightning

913
01:06:59,011 --> 01:07:01,621
addresses, that, that might be a honeypot.

914
01:07:01,971 --> 01:07:07,731
Like, if, if you're not a nym, but,
uh, uh, if you've given away your

915
01:07:07,731 --> 01:07:11,351
identity and, and your lightning
address is connected to that and it's

916
01:07:11,351 --> 01:07:16,151
easily find on Nostr, like, there
might be a 6102 at some point where

917
01:07:16,941 --> 01:07:20,051
men with guns come and do stuff to
people on Nostr, what do you think?

918
01:07:20,610 --> 01:07:25,680
Well, uh, people need to be aware
of the fact that these are, this

919
01:07:25,680 --> 01:07:27,540
is all publicly accessible data.

920
01:07:28,070 --> 01:07:32,540
So, to the extent that you're, that
you wish to have your Lightning address

921
01:07:32,540 --> 01:07:39,880
publicly accessible, you can have
that in, uh, in a, in a Nostr profile,

922
01:07:40,330 --> 01:07:41,880
and people will be able to find it.

923
01:07:42,530 --> 01:07:49,230
Uh, and I think this is, uh, Uh,
appropriate for kind of payments that

924
01:07:49,400 --> 01:07:53,940
should be in the public domain, payments
like zaps where you're doing essentially,

925
01:07:54,320 --> 01:07:59,450
you're not only transferring value to the
content creator, you're also doing public,

926
01:07:59,490 --> 01:08:04,410
public signaling, uh, to the rest of the
network that you think that this content

927
01:08:04,450 --> 01:08:07,040
is valuable or interesting and so forth.

928
01:08:07,490 --> 01:08:16,340
So there is, um, there is room for
publicly visible, uh, Payments for these

929
01:08:16,380 --> 01:08:21,800
particular reasons, and then there's
obviously the majority of payments

930
01:08:21,800 --> 01:08:29,230
should be private, and those shouldn't
be mixed, so these wallets should not

931
01:08:30,040 --> 01:08:32,460
be kind of connected in any manner.

932
01:08:32,870 --> 01:08:38,529
If you're to preserve your privacy
fully, don't connect it to your

933
01:08:38,529 --> 01:08:42,379
public, don't connect those payments
to your public, uh, Nostr profile.

934
01:10:20,763 --> 01:10:24,023
Yeah, those are some good best
practices and yeah, I think, I

935
01:10:24,023 --> 01:10:30,443
think, at least maybe a good way to
mitigate that potential attack avenue.

936
01:10:30,603 --> 01:10:35,793
Now, since we're on the FUD topic a
little bit, we've had some conversations

937
01:10:35,813 --> 01:10:40,763
with, with other folks who have opinions
about Nostr, but I, I think, I think

938
01:10:40,763 --> 01:10:45,943
you're actually the first time we've
had a, like a proper Nostr developer on.

939
01:10:46,463 --> 01:10:49,123
And, and I think the, the,
the thing here is that we've.

940
01:10:49,408 --> 01:10:52,488
we've talked about some sort of
FUD scenarios here in terms of

941
01:10:52,778 --> 01:10:57,688
especially the scalability of Nostr
and, and a lot of this is coming

942
01:10:57,688 --> 01:11:02,078
down to that relays are essentially
a point of centralization, right?

943
01:11:02,558 --> 01:11:07,568
And, and so is there a risk here that
Nostr will hit kind of a critical

944
01:11:07,568 --> 01:11:13,048
mass and then the architecture
won't really be scalable anymore?

945
01:11:13,428 --> 01:11:18,178
And Maybe just to sort of calibrate
that a little further that something

946
01:11:18,178 --> 01:11:23,228
like relays will become so expensive
that it's impossible to run them

947
01:11:23,238 --> 01:11:27,704
without, the costs rising to the
point that they say price people out.

948
01:11:27,744 --> 01:11:28,844
So same effect.

949
01:11:29,284 --> 01:11:31,974
Uh, what do you think about that in
terms of the scalability of Nostr?

950
01:11:32,431 --> 01:11:33,461
That's a great question.

951
01:11:33,621 --> 01:11:42,781
And, uh, the kind of, the common practices
among Nostr clients up until recently have

952
01:11:42,781 --> 01:11:47,531
been such that most clients, including
Primal, uh, were kind of onboarding people

953
01:11:47,531 --> 01:11:49,781
onto, you know, the top dozen relays.

954
01:11:50,614 --> 01:11:54,244
and just by default, you kind of, we,
we had like a static list of the most

955
01:11:54,244 --> 01:11:59,124
popular relays and then everyone's
content was easy to find because like

956
01:11:59,724 --> 01:12:05,604
you can interrogate those relays,
which obviously isn't scalable.

957
01:12:06,124 --> 01:12:11,014
And, uh, you, you asked if there
is a risk that, you know, an noster

958
01:12:11,014 --> 01:12:16,604
one scale, if, you know, we, uh, do
stuff like that, there's no risk.

959
01:12:16,604 --> 01:12:18,434
The chance is a hundred
percent at one scale.

960
01:12:19,309 --> 01:12:25,939
There's no risk involved, uh, so obviously
this was identified, uh, and, uh, we now

961
01:12:25,939 --> 01:12:28,949
within Nostr, I don't know how much you
guys are following this, these are kind

962
01:12:28,949 --> 01:12:35,287
of developer, uh, topics, but, we do have,
uh, protocol within Nostr, which is called

963
01:12:35,287 --> 01:12:43,982
Gossip or Outbox model, which is meant to
kind of spread out the users amongst all

964
01:12:43,982 --> 01:12:46,312
of the known publicly accessible relays.

965
01:12:46,352 --> 01:12:50,142
So we're not onboarding the
latest versions of Primal and

966
01:12:50,192 --> 01:12:56,182
many other Nostr apps are not just
using the top 10 relays approach.

967
01:12:56,527 --> 01:13:02,437
You actually, we, according to our
records, there is about 1, 100 relays that

968
01:13:02,437 --> 01:13:07,487
are up and running and responsive and, you
know, are participating in the network.

969
01:13:07,787 --> 01:13:12,157
So when a new user gets onboarded
onto Primal, we make sure that

970
01:13:12,157 --> 01:13:14,647
we, uh, include the Primal relay.

971
01:13:15,082 --> 01:13:20,032
Uh, the purple pages relay,
which, uh, kind of stores Nostr

972
01:13:20,142 --> 01:13:21,982
profiles only, doesn't store data.

973
01:13:22,625 --> 01:13:28,585
and then we take a relatively
random sampling of the, uh, the

974
01:13:28,595 --> 01:13:33,545
remaining, uh, uh, relays and kind
of, Pick like a top 10 among those.

975
01:13:34,255 --> 01:13:39,015
So we are already in the process of
spreading new users out among many relays.

976
01:13:39,960 --> 01:13:44,880
So that's one way that
the network will scale.

977
01:13:45,420 --> 01:13:51,410
Another way is, and by the way, these
are complementary, is what we're doing

978
01:13:51,410 --> 01:13:54,290
with actually with caching at Primal.

979
01:13:54,630 --> 01:14:00,180
We believe that, uh, Having these
caching instances that are able to

980
01:14:00,190 --> 01:14:05,455
have, highly available copies of
latest content that's most commonly

981
01:14:05,455 --> 01:14:10,165
being requested in a way that you
provide, like, very quick response

982
01:14:10,165 --> 01:14:12,385
times without overburdening the relays.

983
01:14:12,943 --> 01:14:14,945
I think that's a part of the solution too.

984
01:14:15,355 --> 01:14:17,575
Uh, we are running a caching service.

985
01:14:17,575 --> 01:14:20,695
There are a few other teams that
are, uh, starting to do this.

986
01:14:21,115 --> 01:14:27,465
Uh, so I actually am quite optimistic
about no's ability to scale.

987
01:14:27,465 --> 01:14:31,125
There's nothing architect
architecturally that's in, in our way.

988
01:14:31,545 --> 01:14:37,545
Uh, it's just a network will react to
events that happen and adjust accordingly.

989
01:14:37,545 --> 01:14:39,020
And we do have the tools to do that.

990
01:14:39,819 --> 01:14:40,209
Okay.

991
01:14:40,209 --> 01:14:40,549
Yeah.

992
01:14:40,579 --> 01:14:44,939
So I, I guess the, the main thing
there, the, the follow on is, is what

993
01:14:44,939 --> 01:14:50,009
do you see as the outlook for Nostr
over the next, say three to five years?

994
01:14:50,139 --> 01:14:54,574
What's Predictions for what's
going to happen in the ecosystem.

995
01:14:55,456 --> 01:15:00,536
I think Nostr will eventually consume
everything, like, uh, everything,

996
01:15:00,566 --> 01:15:06,626
every app that you use today that
has a social graph, which is a

997
01:15:06,626 --> 01:15:11,436
lot of web apps, everything gets
consumed by Nostr eventually.

998
01:15:12,166 --> 01:15:15,356
It will take, it's just that it will
take more than three to five years.

999
01:15:15,496 --> 01:15:20,686
I think we're talking about like a bigger,
uh, kind of timeline than that, uh, could

1000
01:15:20,686 --> 01:15:23,056
be maybe 10 years or more over time.

1001
01:15:23,683 --> 01:15:31,858
just, uh, The dynamics of the network
are such that any new app developer, uh,

1002
01:15:31,858 --> 01:15:38,818
that's building on Nostr will do their own
efforts to grow their user base, and by

1003
01:15:38,818 --> 01:15:44,701
doing so will grow Nostr for everyone, and
when you play that out over time, Kind of

1004
01:15:44,701 --> 01:15:49,021
the openness of the network is ultimately
the killer feature because you end up with

1005
01:15:49,021 --> 01:15:54,391
a massive ecosystem, ecosystem of apps
that are, that are oral interoperable.

1006
01:15:55,126 --> 01:15:58,466
I'm bullish on this pro,
probably not surprisingly.

1007
01:15:59,307 --> 01:16:05,687
Okay, I think I have a final question
from us to you, and that is, what, so

1008
01:16:05,687 --> 01:16:10,067
what happens first, hyperbitcoinization
or hypernostrification?

1009
01:16:11,027 --> 01:16:14,927
Do we want to define those two a
little bit more like, so is hyper

1010
01:16:15,287 --> 01:16:19,037
ization the moment when we start
using Bitcoin as the unit of account?

1011
01:16:19,317 --> 01:16:24,207
uh, this is a fantastic response,
because, uh, this is a trick question,

1012
01:16:24,657 --> 01:16:29,457
since, uh, I don't believe there's
an end point to either of the two.

1013
01:16:29,987 --> 01:16:34,317
First of all, hyperbitcoinization
and hypernostrification are personal

1014
01:16:34,317 --> 01:16:39,277
things that happen to you, and And
there can always be more people.

1015
01:16:39,407 --> 01:16:43,137
There can always be more
economic activity among humans.

1016
01:16:43,617 --> 01:16:45,497
There can always be more speech.

1017
01:16:45,997 --> 01:16:51,387
So I think these are ever growing
phenomena that don't end anytime soon.

1018
01:16:52,157 --> 01:16:58,127
And that's the most optimistic
outlook for humanity ever, maybe.

1019
01:16:59,084 --> 01:16:59,924
I agree with that.

1020
01:17:00,474 --> 01:17:02,574
And I would just add one more thing.

1021
01:17:02,754 --> 01:17:03,354
Um.

1022
01:17:03,989 --> 01:17:11,269
In the presence of unstoppable
money and unstoppable speech, it's

1023
01:17:11,269 --> 01:17:13,479
impossible for any tyranny to survive.

1024
01:17:14,029 --> 01:17:17,449
We need both of these things,
but when we have them, and when

1025
01:17:17,459 --> 01:17:21,209
they're kind of deployed widely
enough, it will be impossible for

1026
01:17:21,209 --> 01:17:23,579
any tyrannic regime to survive.

1027
01:17:23,589 --> 01:17:24,499
They just can't.

1028
01:17:24,839 --> 01:17:26,109
It's like kryptonite.

1029
01:17:26,434 --> 01:17:27,544
Or any tyranny.

1030
01:17:28,221 --> 01:17:29,141
It's fantastic.

1031
01:17:29,421 --> 01:17:33,401
So in the long run, it's the
end of inflation and the end

1032
01:17:33,411 --> 01:17:36,361
of any cohesive measures.

1033
01:17:36,401 --> 01:17:37,781
So it's the end of taxes too.

1034
01:17:38,101 --> 01:17:38,701
I guess.

1035
01:17:40,501 --> 01:17:41,641
Suck on that, governments.

1036
01:17:41,811 --> 01:17:45,841
Anything else you want to bring up,
Milian, before we wrap this thing up?

1037
01:17:46,384 --> 01:17:48,024
No, I think this was a great conversation.

1038
01:17:48,024 --> 01:17:49,924
Thank you very much for having me, guys.

1039
01:17:50,164 --> 01:17:54,904
And, uh, I guess the final thing I would
bring up is just, uh, if you haven't

1040
01:17:54,924 --> 01:17:59,684
tried Nostr lately, Go ahead, there
are a number of great app, Nostr apps

1041
01:17:59,684 --> 01:18:04,174
and services that you can try, uh, come
join us, uh, we're building the future

1042
01:18:04,174 --> 01:18:06,254
there, and it's actually quite fun.

1043
01:18:06,841 --> 01:18:07,221
Yeah.

1044
01:18:07,421 --> 01:18:12,541
And if you tried Nostr a year ago and
found it too clunky, try it again because

1045
01:18:12,541 --> 01:18:14,931
it gets exponentially better over time.

1046
01:18:14,931 --> 01:18:17,821
It's, it's really a fantastic
thing to be a part of.

1047
01:18:17,841 --> 01:18:21,551
So go ahead and hyper Nostrify yourselves.

1048
01:18:22,191 --> 01:18:24,951
And Milian, where, where
can people find you online?

1049
01:18:24,951 --> 01:18:27,831
I guess on Nostr, but anywhere else?

1050
01:18:28,571 --> 01:18:29,021
Primal.

1051
01:18:29,261 --> 01:18:33,571
net slash million, M I L L
J A N, that's my profile.

1052
01:18:34,037 --> 01:18:34,787
Fantastic.

1053
01:18:35,202 --> 01:18:39,392
I enjoy this a ton, and looking
forward to seeing you in real life

1054
01:18:39,392 --> 01:18:44,112
again, and online, and looking forward
to increasing our Nostr presence.

1055
01:18:44,342 --> 01:18:50,092
So thanks a lot for this, this was very
informative and very, very enjoyable.

1056
01:18:50,627 --> 01:18:54,947
Thank you guys, let's fucking
go, and, uh, have a good one.

1057
01:18:55,551 --> 01:18:57,241
LFG, perfect sign off.

1058
01:18:57,341 --> 01:19:00,231
Milian, thank you so much
and thank you for listening.

1059
01:19:00,231 --> 01:19:01,721
This has been the Freedom Footprint Show.