Nostr Deep Dive with Miljan from Primal - FFS #111

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Miljan, welcome to the Freedom
Footprint show, thanks for joining us.

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Hi guys, good to be here.

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Yeah, good to see you, Miljan.

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Uh, last time we met was on
Madeira, uh, on a rooftop.

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Uh, I think that's where
we first met, right?

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That's right.

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Yes.

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told me, you told me a very weird story,
which I'm kind of proud, proud of.

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It felt like an Achievement
Unlocked moment.

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Can you tell, tell our
listeners what that was?

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Oh, um, maybe it was, uh, when you
posted the, your full book as a

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short note, as a short Nostr note
and broke, uh, Primal and probably

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a few other clients as a part of it.

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Yeah, I broke Nostr, or we broke
Nostr because it was Luke's idea

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to, to post the entire book, so.

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It's a fun, fun experiment.

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worries at all.

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Uh, Nostr was already
broken before you did that.

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So, so no issues at all.

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Fantastic.

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No, it's great to have you here.

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Um, we are, as we, as we just said noobs.

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So we'd love to, to learn more
about Nostr and Primal specifically.

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But first of all, we'd like to
know a little more about you.

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Who are you?

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And can you give us the,
the TLDR on Millian?

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Sure.

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And just a quick note prior to
that, we are all Nostr noobs.

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Uh, all of us, even the developers,
and even the creator of the

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protocol, and those who have been
in it from the very beginning.

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We're all just kind of grappling
with this, we're all trying to

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come to terms with what Nostr is.

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I think it's going to take some time, it's
kind of evolving, so, uh, we're all noobs.

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It's all so early.

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We'll get into it in a bit more
detail, I'm sure, during the show.

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And it's quite magical to be a part of
this something, something that appears to

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be quite special at such an early stage.

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So happy to dive into all the
details with you guys, whatever

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you guys want to talk about.

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As for me, I'm a software entrepreneur.

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I've been building products and
companies since I was a teenager.

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I honestly lost count how many
products or companies I started.

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But ever since I fell down the Bitcoin
rabbit hole back in 2017, I've been

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obsessing over that and couldn't really
build any other type of software.

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There's so much to be built in this space.

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And then I fell down the Nostr
rabbit hole in late 22, 2022.

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And, uh, it's been 24 7 since then.

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Every waking hour of the day, uh, all,
I wake up and I just work on Nostr.

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Fantastic.

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Um, so what is Nostr?

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Well, as I just said, we're
all trying to figure this out.

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But at the high level, um, if we look
at Bitcoin as an open protocol for

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money, Uh, you can think of Nostr as an
open protocol for speech, speech in a

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kind of a, the broadest sense possible.

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Um, so this includes, uh, communication,
but also publishing, things like that.

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it will, as a part of that, it
brings us, an identity layer.

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Uh, basically what we have, what we're
seeing now is a global web of trust

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of cryptographic identities emerging.

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as a part of this Nostr
experiment, let's call it.

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Uh, so that's, all of that is quite
exciting and, uh, I think will

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have far reaching consequences.

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Yeah, and Nostr stands for notes and
other stuff, stuff through relays,

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if I'm not misremembering this.

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Um, well, what is a relay and
how, how does this thing work?

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uh, well the good news about Nostr
is that it's extremely simple.

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as a protocol.

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and, uh, let's maybe describe
it just in a few sentences.

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So there are three
major concepts in Nostr.

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concept number one is
every user gets a key pair.

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So bitcoiners will be
very familiar with this.

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You get a private key and a public key.

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concept number two is you use client apps.

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so everyone's familiar with that.

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and using the client app, you create a
message and sign it with your key and then

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transmit it to the set of relays, which is
the third and final concept In noster, uh,

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relays are, uh, very simple, uh, servers.

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they're capable of, uh, accepting
signed messages from users and storing

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them locally, and then, uh, answering
to, uh, responding to very simple,

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uh, queries, like, for example, if
I say, hey, this is Knut, I have

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his public key, do you have any, uh,
content that Knut has published lately?

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And the relay will respond
to that type of request.

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So that's basically it.

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That's the entirety of Nostr, and,
and the protocol is so simple that

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it can be described in three words,
which is signed, messages, relayed.

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That's Nostr.

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The rest of it has to do with the
format of those messages and so

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forth, and, you know, like, it
can get quite detailed from there.

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Uh, there are, the protocol itself is
defined in a collect connection of, uh,

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collection of nips, uh, noster improvement
possibilities similar to bips and Bitcoin.

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I don't know where we're at in terms
of the count of like nips so far.

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I think we might be like
past a hundred, uh, nips.

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But what's interesting is that
only, uh, nip, uh, nip oh one

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is the only mandatory nip.

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So you can, it's like a few pages,
you can just read that, and that

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kind of defines the protocol itself,
and all the other NIPs are optional.

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So the protocol is, like
I said, very simple.

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It doesn't try to do too much.

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It doesn't try to achieve
global consensus, for example,

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like Bitcoin is doing.

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It's much more casual from the point
of view that you're just like sending

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Notes to, uh, a collection of relays
and, uh, then client applications.

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Uh, figure out how to
make sense of it all.

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Okay, and the only identification, so to
speak, is the public private key pair.

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Uh, right.

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You, you get a public key and
a private key and you sign your

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messages with a private key.

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And I guess that means that you
could have multiple identities, like

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an infinite amount of identities,
uh, theoretically at least, right?

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You can, and you probably should
have multiple identities on aster.

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Like it's so easy to create name
accounts and, uh, because anyone

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can create key pairs so easily.

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There are also millions of
bots on noster presents.

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Uh, an interesting situation.

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I mean, Noster is not unique to that.

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There are millions of bots on Twitter too.

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Uh, it's just much, much
easier to create bots on Nostr.

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Okay, and how is that a good thing?

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Well, it kind of, uh, I don't know if it's
a good thing, it's just a thing, right?

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But, um, throws that monkey off our back.

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We know there are gonna be bots.

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And we kind of, as we're building
applications and infrastructure on top of

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Nostr, we just have to account for that.

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So every developer building useful
products and services on top of Nostr

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needs to understand that this is an
open network, that we're, that we

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live in an adversarial environment.

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And build products and
features accordingly.

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And the good news is that, as
I mentioned previously, we're

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spinning this global web of trust.

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of kind of public, of
cryptographic identities where

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we can rely on this web of trust.

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There's quite a bit of signal
in there to filter out the bots.

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So that's one of the strongest kind
of aspects of Nostr that you have

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this global identity layer that's
fully open and kind of equally

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accessible to any user or developer.

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Yeah, and It's been pointed out
to me a lot when I try to poke

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holes in Nostr just for the sake of
argument that it is not Twitter 2.

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0, it's a protocol layer and all
sorts of things could at least

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theoretically be built on top of it.

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Uh, so it's not directly competing with
the social networks of the world, but

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rather competing with the internet itself.

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Would that be a good description that
we're sort of reinventing the wheel,

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but with cryptography at the base layer?

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Is that a good description?

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yes, that's a good description.

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So the Nostr is definitely not, uh, just
built for social media applications, even

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though that's a content type that has
taken off, in the early stages of Nostr.

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Uh, there are other content types
and there are other application

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types that are, uh, that are being
built and have been released, and

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they're kind of starting to take off.

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to various degrees, uh, so, um, long
form content would be, uh, another one.

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Maybe that's what you should have
used with your, uh, with your book,

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maybe post it as a long form note.

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I don't know.

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Well, I wouldn't have broke
primal if I did, right?

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So the achievement wouldn't
have been unlocked.

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That's true, actually.

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So, um, yeah, we still don't support
long form nodes on Primal, but this

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is one of the, uh, next things that
we're, that we have on our roadmap.

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We're actually working on it right now.

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Uh, I'm quite bullish
on that content type.

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So to kind of be, um, to be a little
bit more specific, if Social media

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content is competing with Twitter,
Reddit, Instagram, and so forth.

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Long form content is competing
with the sub stacks of the world

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or medium, those types of products.

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And what should be pointed out is that
on the one hand, you have Twitter,

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Reddit, Facebook, and so forth, and
then you have Medium and Substack.

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All of these, let's call them legacy
web applications, have their own social

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networks, have their own kind of user
directory and a social graph that's

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like included in each one of these
products, and they're all siloed.

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They're all closed, and they all have
their own network, and they jealously

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guard that network from anyone else.

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It's essentially a walled garden where,
uh, walls are getting taller as time

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goes by, where it's kind of, you're
realizing that, uh, if you're not logged

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in, you're able to access less and
less of Twitter content, for example.

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so, in stark contrast to that, you
have Nostr, where you have a few dozen

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Social media clients already working
on the same data layer on the same open

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social graph where you can take your
private key out of one app and plug it

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into the other one and you will be able
to access the network the same way.

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You'll have the same followers, etc, etc.

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But it goes beyond just
social media content.

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Uh, then you plug your private key,
let's say you take your Primal,

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your Primal, your private key from
Primal and plug it into highlighter.

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com, which is a long form, client
that's competing with Substack.

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And you can You're still dealing with
the same, uh, social graph, so you

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have, not only do we have a bunch
of social media clients working off

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the same social graph and the same
content, but we have multiple types of

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applications, so again, beyond, Long form
content and short form and social media

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content, we have, streaming content.

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So let's say, Zapstream is one of
the most exciting Nostr projects,

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which is a Twitch competitor.

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Uh, then you have a number of music
applications and marketplaces.

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There's even a GitHub competitor.

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So Nostr is quite versatile.

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because like its core is so simple
that it's extremely extensible

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and it's quite versatile in terms
of the types of applications

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that you can build on top of it.

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And I really believe that we will
end up re implementing the entire

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kind of legacy web onto this, uh,
on top of this protocol, which

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will give users full sovereignty.

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over their online identity, over
their social connections, and,

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uh, the content they publish.

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Yeah, and as I understand it, the zaps
are not in the protocol itself, right?

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It's something you build on top, like
lightning support in the clients.

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Zaps are a part of the protocol in the
sense that they are defined in a NIP or

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a collection of NIPs, uh, but they are
not mandatory, as I mentioned previously.

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Only NIP1 is mandatory, so it's just
an extension of the protocol, and it's

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up to individual client developers to
decide which NIPs they want to implement.

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And the Zaps NIP is very popular,
of course, because it's such a great

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feature that most clients implemented it.

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So it kind of, they became, de
facto, a part of the protocol.

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Yeah, and speaking of saps, like, I,
uh, this is, this is like the part of

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Nostr and Nostr as, uh, Nostr clients
as Twitter clones or social media

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clones that I, that make it, makes it
different, but, but I don't really see,

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like, let's see if I can, uh, Um, tell
this story correctly, but, but, um,

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right now the Internet is a game of,
um, um, if you're a content creator,

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it's a constant game for, for subscribes
and likes and stuff like that, right?

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Uh, and retweets and whatnot and mentions.

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That's how you get, you know,
Internet fame, if you will.

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And on noster, you sap people, so
you send them actual money, uh,

220
00:14:59,300 --> 00:15:01,400
over the Lightning Network work.

221
00:15:01,910 --> 00:15:06,410
And the post that gets zapped
the most, uh, are the ones that

222
00:15:06,410 --> 00:15:10,250
people usually see in their feeds
because most of the Noster clients

223
00:15:10,970 --> 00:15:15,484
prioritize, Well zapped post, right?

224
00:15:15,814 --> 00:15:21,794
Am I completely wrong here or is
this a somewhat fair representation?

225
00:15:22,824 --> 00:15:25,114
I would say that's a
somewhat fair representation.

226
00:15:25,164 --> 00:15:26,974
Let's maybe dig into the details.

227
00:15:27,520 --> 00:15:34,960
So my question is, um, doesn't
this create an even more, um, harsh

228
00:15:34,960 --> 00:15:39,828
competition for, for, uh, uh, for
likes, like the people will do even

229
00:15:39,828 --> 00:15:46,320
more clickbaity things in order to get
the zaps to that they will, instead of

230
00:15:46,660 --> 00:15:49,410
being honest and, and, uh, open about.

231
00:15:50,085 --> 00:15:54,615
Uh, whatever they're talking about, won't
they just have the incentive to optimize

232
00:15:54,625 --> 00:16:00,155
for zaps the way they have an incentive
to optimize for attention at the moment?

233
00:16:00,395 --> 00:16:03,115
Aren't we just shifting the
attention economy to something

234
00:16:03,115 --> 00:16:04,685
like attention on steroids?

235
00:16:05,120 --> 00:16:06,590
Yeah, let's take a closer look.

236
00:16:06,590 --> 00:16:12,314
I think this is a good, uh, Fascinating
topic, uh, because it kind of, plugs into

237
00:16:12,834 --> 00:16:17,914
like one of the key points, which is,
uh, the current legacy web, let's put it

238
00:16:17,914 --> 00:16:24,084
this way, is there's a set of incentives
that exists currently between, uh, like

239
00:16:24,084 --> 00:16:28,004
you said, content creators, viewers,
people who are just like consuming

240
00:16:28,004 --> 00:16:34,534
content and the big platforms that are
literally in charge of this, all of this.

241
00:16:35,114 --> 00:16:40,774
And the monetization model has
predominantly been based on

242
00:16:40,774 --> 00:16:46,424
advertising, as you guys know, which
of course means that users are not

243
00:16:46,464 --> 00:16:49,384
really customers of these platforms.

244
00:16:49,504 --> 00:16:53,584
They are the product which is
being sold to the real customers,

245
00:16:53,584 --> 00:16:54,884
which is the advertisers.

246
00:16:55,404 --> 00:17:01,264
And by competing to provide the best
possible product to their customers,

247
00:17:03,069 --> 00:17:09,179
the best possible advertising, uh, real
estate and kind of advertising, uh,

248
00:17:09,189 --> 00:17:15,129
data, uh, to their advertisers, to their
customers, uh, the current platform

249
00:17:15,129 --> 00:17:19,719
owners are incentivized to do all kinds
of crazy things and super creepy things.

250
00:17:19,859 --> 00:17:22,159
They're incentivized to spy on us.

251
00:17:22,759 --> 00:17:26,719
Uh, we all know now it's a common
knowledge that, you know, Instagram

252
00:17:26,729 --> 00:17:32,739
will kind of listen in on your
conversations and then serve kind

253
00:17:32,739 --> 00:17:35,039
of, uh, the related ads later on.

254
00:17:35,039 --> 00:17:39,949
So, like, this used to be a conspiracy
theory, maybe like five years ago or

255
00:17:39,949 --> 00:17:42,289
so, but everybody knows that today.

256
00:17:42,739 --> 00:17:48,349
So, there is a certain sort of incentive
structure that exists with the legacy web.

257
00:17:48,864 --> 00:17:50,984
And it's not great, to say the least.

258
00:17:51,984 --> 00:18:01,089
with Nostr, we have the, uh, opportunity
to, uh, maybe Rework this incentive

259
00:18:01,089 --> 00:18:06,929
structure and, uh, what's different
with Nostr compared to, let's say, 10

260
00:18:06,929 --> 00:18:11,379
or 15 years ago when these, like, major
kind of legacy, what are currently

261
00:18:11,379 --> 00:18:13,199
legacy apps were being developed.

262
00:18:13,469 --> 00:18:17,359
What's different with Nostr
is that we do have Bitcoin.

263
00:18:17,959 --> 00:18:20,119
We do have Lightning that works.

264
00:18:20,469 --> 00:18:21,869
And I'm happy to talk about that.

265
00:18:22,179 --> 00:18:24,299
specifically why Lightning works today.

266
00:18:24,479 --> 00:18:28,679
There's a little bit of a debate about
that going on in Bitcoin Circle, so we

267
00:18:28,679 --> 00:18:32,789
can maybe have the conversation if you
want to, but Lightning definitely works.

268
00:18:33,099 --> 00:18:40,319
It's here, and it's integrated into
Nostr using this ZAP specification.

269
00:18:41,529 --> 00:18:49,240
So now, um I think the balance of
power is shifting dramatically with

270
00:18:49,490 --> 00:18:50,810
Nostr in a couple of different ways.

271
00:18:51,030 --> 00:18:53,770
One is, well, the user is in charge.

272
00:18:53,810 --> 00:18:57,370
The user is sovereign when
it comes to their identity.

273
00:18:57,390 --> 00:19:06,290
So it's, uh, the legacy platforms
are able to, of course, de platform

274
00:19:06,290 --> 00:19:10,920
you to change your, you know, access
to your account, even post from

275
00:19:10,920 --> 00:19:12,690
your account, which is pretty wild.

276
00:19:13,200 --> 00:19:14,480
That's not possible on Nostr.

277
00:19:15,368 --> 00:19:20,450
Uh, the user can pick up and leave any
client that they're not happy with.

278
00:19:21,940 --> 00:19:27,279
So that changes the incentive structure
quite, kind of the power dynamic,

279
00:19:27,439 --> 00:19:33,498
let's say, between, uh, the app
providers and the users quite a bit.

280
00:19:34,378 --> 00:19:38,248
And the second one is the kind of
the incentive structure between,

281
00:19:38,598 --> 00:19:42,942
let's say, content creators,
uh, app providers and users.

282
00:19:43,343 --> 00:19:48,732
in the sense that, content creators
are now able to monetize their

283
00:19:48,762 --> 00:19:51,882
content directly from the users.

284
00:19:52,583 --> 00:19:57,203
And the very first iteration
of this is visible in zaps.

285
00:19:58,115 --> 00:20:03,505
So, if, if I value your content,
I can, uh, send you a zap, and

286
00:20:03,505 --> 00:20:06,935
you will receive it directly from
me, and that's the end of it.

287
00:20:07,624 --> 00:20:12,896
and then I think we're going to
see quite a bit of iteration and

288
00:20:12,906 --> 00:20:14,986
experimentation with this feature.

289
00:20:15,296 --> 00:20:17,656
This is not by any means a done deal.

290
00:20:18,256 --> 00:20:23,146
The first most primitive implementation
is like, okay, well, instead of a

291
00:20:23,166 --> 00:20:27,566
like, because likes are cheap, anyone
can press a button and that's it.

292
00:20:27,936 --> 00:20:33,886
Uh, let's, uh, have this capability to
zap a certain note, any note, and then,

293
00:20:33,896 --> 00:20:36,442
uh, The author gets the funds immediately.

294
00:20:36,822 --> 00:20:43,042
That's the, kind of, the most obvious, uh,
and, kind of, the simplest way to utilize

295
00:20:43,042 --> 00:20:47,487
the technology that we have, but There
are going to be other iterations of this.

296
00:20:48,297 --> 00:20:53,547
For example, Pablo, the creator of
Highlighter, is currently working on, or

297
00:20:53,547 --> 00:20:58,017
has already launched this capability kind
of in early form where content creators

298
00:20:58,067 --> 00:21:04,777
can create these, uh, backstage passes,
basically the ability to, for their, uh,

299
00:21:04,977 --> 00:21:08,357
audience to access, uh, exclusive content.

300
00:21:08,817 --> 00:21:10,787
and creates kind of subscription tiers.

301
00:21:12,048 --> 00:21:17,908
when defining the subscription
tier itself, the content creator

302
00:21:18,618 --> 00:21:23,638
gets to decide what happens with
the revenue that's coming in.

303
00:21:24,188 --> 00:21:28,668
So that changes the
power dynamic entirely.

304
00:21:30,518 --> 00:21:36,563
Whereas, In Legacy Web, you, as a
content creator, are subjected to

305
00:21:36,563 --> 00:21:39,573
whatever rules the platform sets for you.

306
00:21:39,583 --> 00:21:43,643
The platform, like Substack,
might say, uh, you know,

307
00:21:43,853 --> 00:21:45,673
you'll get X number of percent.

308
00:21:46,383 --> 00:21:49,653
We decided already, and
take it or leave it.

309
00:21:50,183 --> 00:21:55,964
Whereas this, situation
is reversed on, uh, Nostr.

310
00:21:56,544 --> 00:22:02,484
Uh, so the way that Pablo wrote this spec
is, You as a content creator can, you

311
00:22:02,484 --> 00:22:09,184
know, how about 100 percent to start with
and, you know, and then you decide, okay,

312
00:22:09,464 --> 00:22:16,324
the, uh, you know, the application that
surfaced this particular subscription, so

313
00:22:17,014 --> 00:22:22,919
if a user came through, You know, Primal,
let's say, and subscribe to Primal or

314
00:22:22,919 --> 00:22:25,699
any other kind of client application.

315
00:22:26,059 --> 00:22:30,799
I will, uh, give them 2 percent
or 5 percent or whatever.

316
00:22:30,959 --> 00:22:36,289
You get to decide as a creator
how the revenue will be split up.

317
00:22:36,849 --> 00:22:39,499
And then through Zap Splits,
you can share it with your kind

318
00:22:39,499 --> 00:22:41,269
of collaborators and so forth.

319
00:22:42,130 --> 00:22:45,450
so that's a very long winded
answer to your question.

320
00:22:45,820 --> 00:22:53,035
I mean, it's such It's such a, it's such
a fascinating topic, and I think, uh, Zaps

321
00:22:53,355 --> 00:22:59,535
and this ability to pay content creators
directly is underappreciated currently.

322
00:22:59,545 --> 00:23:03,935
They completely, this will completely
change the power dynamic on the

323
00:23:03,935 --> 00:23:05,765
web, and I think for the better.

324
00:23:07,410 --> 00:23:08,730
Yeah, that's fantastic.

325
00:23:09,230 --> 00:23:10,250
Pablo is fantastic.

326
00:23:10,250 --> 00:23:13,880
I had the pleasure of
joining the very last

327
00:23:16,250 --> 00:23:22,324
session with him and Gigi on Madeira,
where they have this development cohort

328
00:23:24,344 --> 00:23:28,034
developing stuff for Nostr and
Bitcoin, and that was a wonderful

329
00:23:28,604 --> 00:23:34,304
group of highly intelligent
freaks working on stuff like this.

330
00:23:34,999 --> 00:23:39,689
And, and that's, that's just amazing
that, um, it might just imagining

331
00:23:39,689 --> 00:23:43,789
a world where, where the creators
decide how much the, the middleman

332
00:23:43,789 --> 00:23:45,629
gets instead of the other way around.

333
00:23:46,199 --> 00:23:51,269
I mean, imagine that for self
publishing on the, uh, uh, Nostr

334
00:23:51,269 --> 00:23:53,029
equivalent of Amazon, for instance.

335
00:23:53,129 --> 00:23:53,619
Okay.

336
00:23:53,939 --> 00:23:59,429
Whoever gets, whoever gives me the
best deal gets to publish my book,

337
00:23:59,539 --> 00:24:04,849
print on demand, like that completely
turns the, turns all the tables, right?

338
00:24:05,709 --> 00:24:06,479
so exciting.

339
00:24:06,529 --> 00:24:13,629
And like, you can't help but be extremely
bullish on Nostr when you see the type of

340
00:24:14,709 --> 00:24:16,629
developer activity that's going on there.

341
00:24:17,462 --> 00:24:18,362
No, it was really cool.

342
00:24:18,362 --> 00:24:22,502
All the projects like me as a layman
sitting there in the audience and

343
00:24:22,502 --> 00:24:26,742
understanding a handful of percent
of what people are saying, but, but

344
00:24:26,742 --> 00:24:30,152
still being very excited about it
because you know, they're building

345
00:24:30,152 --> 00:24:32,702
it on top of this unstoppable layer.

346
00:24:32,702 --> 00:24:34,292
It's, it's a pretty amazing.

347
00:24:34,292 --> 00:24:34,482
Yeah.

348
00:24:34,990 --> 00:24:35,750
Yeah, love it.

349
00:24:36,791 --> 00:24:40,431
Hey, maybe, uh, maybe I'll jump
in, uh, uh, now with, uh, just to

350
00:24:40,441 --> 00:24:43,861
direct things, um, maybe a little
bit in a different direction here.

351
00:24:44,321 --> 00:24:47,741
Can you tell us a little bit
about how Primal came to be?

352
00:24:47,791 --> 00:24:52,701
Like, uh, what was the impetus
for developing a Nostr client?

353
00:24:53,747 --> 00:25:00,192
So, prior to starting Primal, I spent
a couple years, I was kind of between

354
00:25:00,192 --> 00:25:02,167
startups, let's put it this way.

355
00:25:02,877 --> 00:25:08,097
And I was basically just a bum, not doing
much, kind of just tinkering with, uh,

356
00:25:08,197 --> 00:25:13,357
things here and there, but, uh, fairly
empty calendar all around, and, uh,

357
00:25:13,667 --> 00:25:18,237
one of the things I was, uh, tinkering
with is kind of just research about,

358
00:25:18,287 --> 00:25:24,977
uh, on things Decentralized publishing
protocols and so that seemed interesting

359
00:25:24,987 --> 00:25:29,167
to me and it seemed like it will become
quite relevant in the coming years.

360
00:25:29,647 --> 00:25:33,629
I even tried designing my own
protocol and I wasn't quite happy

361
00:25:33,629 --> 00:25:36,079
with anything including my own design.

362
00:25:37,149 --> 00:25:40,029
All of these things seemed
way too complicated to me.

363
00:25:41,159 --> 00:25:47,664
And then, um, I discovered
Nostr in mid 2022, that was my

364
00:25:47,674 --> 00:25:49,454
first kind of exposure to Nostr.

365
00:25:49,814 --> 00:25:55,264
Unfortunately for me, I didn't
take a close enough look and

366
00:25:55,264 --> 00:25:56,784
I kind of just discarded it.

367
00:25:58,254 --> 00:26:01,734
That was kind of the first
touchpoint, which I guess there

368
00:26:01,734 --> 00:26:03,834
are parallels to Bitcoin here.

369
00:26:04,864 --> 00:26:10,254
It seems like many of us need
multiple touchpoints, needed

370
00:26:10,314 --> 00:26:11,694
multiple touchpoints with Bitcoin.

371
00:26:12,589 --> 00:26:15,749
in order to kind of start
actually paying more attention.

372
00:26:16,049 --> 00:26:18,576
So that was the case, with me for Nostr.

373
00:26:19,006 --> 00:26:25,573
And then, at the end of 2022, when
Jack Dorsey, uh, tweeted about it, and

374
00:26:25,583 --> 00:26:29,458
more people started paying attention,
uh, I decided to take another look,

375
00:26:29,868 --> 00:26:35,503
actually went and read the spec, uh, and,
immediately fell down the rabbit hole.

376
00:26:35,513 --> 00:26:40,313
I immediately knew I had to, I was
going to do a startup, and, uh, I had

377
00:26:40,313 --> 00:26:43,883
this itch to build, uh, a Nostr client.

378
00:26:43,903 --> 00:26:48,353
And one of the, kind of the immediate
reactions once, once I was reading through

379
00:26:48,353 --> 00:26:54,858
NIP1 basically is, first of all, I was
Certain that this was going to work,

380
00:26:56,005 --> 00:26:58,305
just hit me immediately in a flash.

381
00:26:58,315 --> 00:27:01,265
I was like, okay, this is, this
is the one we've been looking for.

382
00:27:02,075 --> 00:27:02,965
It's going to work.

383
00:27:03,805 --> 00:27:07,925
And, uh, then I realized
we have so much work to do.

384
00:27:07,985 --> 00:27:12,315
And I was kind of wondering, I
was like, okay, this will work,

385
00:27:12,315 --> 00:27:14,575
but I wonder how good it can get.

386
00:27:15,466 --> 00:27:17,865
I wonder in terms of UX.

387
00:27:18,556 --> 00:27:22,616
I wonder how fast we can make this
thing to go without jeopardizing

388
00:27:22,826 --> 00:27:28,470
some of the, uh, kind of censorship
resistance, uh, aspects of the protocol.

389
00:27:29,128 --> 00:27:35,358
and it's like, it was this curiosity and
an itch, like, just that I couldn't shake

390
00:27:35,368 --> 00:27:37,348
that I have to build something here.

391
00:27:37,778 --> 00:27:43,778
Uh, so I immediately came up with the
idea to build a caching service, uh, for

392
00:27:44,078 --> 00:27:51,468
Nostr, um, which is, uh, the ability to
essentially to connect to all of the,

393
00:27:51,518 --> 00:27:56,518
uh, available relays, all of the publicly
accessible relays and kind of collect all

394
00:27:56,538 --> 00:27:58,738
the content in real time and index it.

395
00:27:58,738 --> 00:28:03,067
And of course, uh, it was obvious
that Discovery, Discovery.

396
00:28:03,228 --> 00:28:07,678
was going to be one of the, uh, discovery
layer, was going to be one of the things

397
00:28:07,688 --> 00:28:11,438
that would need to get built because
the content is, lives on just like,

398
00:28:11,748 --> 00:28:15,468
hundreds of unconnected Relays, right?

399
00:28:15,698 --> 00:28:19,818
And by design of the protocol, uh,
relays don't talk to each other.

400
00:28:19,818 --> 00:28:25,498
It's, it's one of the kind of,
one of the aspects of Nostr

401
00:28:25,538 --> 00:28:27,378
that makes it so simple, right?

402
00:28:27,838 --> 00:28:31,018
But also it creates some challenges
around discovery and so forth.

403
00:28:32,068 --> 00:28:37,498
So I started Primal, I discovered
Nostr in December of 2022.

404
00:28:37,558 --> 00:28:41,138
I started Primal in January of 2023.

405
00:28:42,213 --> 00:28:49,033
Uh, and, we started coding also in
January, and, uh, the idea was to

406
00:28:49,073 --> 00:28:55,043
code the caching service, the indexer,
and, uh, we started with a web client.

407
00:28:55,363 --> 00:29:00,989
So, A month later, uh, it was decided
that the first Nostr conference will

408
00:29:00,989 --> 00:29:05,979
happen in Costa Rica in mid March,
and I wanted to make sure that we

409
00:29:05,979 --> 00:29:09,749
have something to show before the
conference, so we actually shipped the

410
00:29:09,749 --> 00:29:13,989
first preview of Primal, which kind of
previewed the whole stack, the caching

411
00:29:13,989 --> 00:29:18,589
service, the indexer, and the web client.

412
00:29:18,949 --> 00:29:24,469
A couple of days before Nostrica, then
I flew down to Costa Rica and I thought

413
00:29:24,499 --> 00:29:28,559
nobody will notice that, you know, this
new client got launched, but it turns

414
00:29:28,559 --> 00:29:32,169
out that everybody noticed and that
was kind of the beginning of Primal.

415
00:29:32,831 --> 00:29:33,521
Yeah, that's awesome.

416
00:29:33,521 --> 00:29:37,661
And I'm remembering the history,
like really, really early days, just

417
00:29:37,661 --> 00:29:39,891
when Nostr was blowing up properly.

418
00:29:39,891 --> 00:29:42,821
And I guess this would be late, late 2022.

419
00:29:42,851 --> 00:29:47,831
And I mean, I think I remember
using a couple of clients

420
00:29:47,841 --> 00:29:49,611
that are even now defunct.

421
00:29:49,931 --> 00:29:52,681
Iris is one of them that
something happened with that.

422
00:29:52,761 --> 00:29:54,651
I don't know actually what happened there.

423
00:29:54,651 --> 00:29:58,901
And then Snort is still kind of around.

424
00:29:59,376 --> 00:30:03,836
Uh, and there were even a couple
others I tried back then, but Primal

425
00:30:03,866 --> 00:30:08,546
seems to have kind of snuck up the
middle and really turned into the

426
00:30:08,976 --> 00:30:12,866
web client that gets recommended, and
even nowadays the app as well that's

427
00:30:12,876 --> 00:30:17,866
recommended, and I mean, uh, do you
have any idea, what do you think Primal

428
00:30:18,086 --> 00:30:24,476
has done differently to really become
the premier Nostr client these days?

429
00:30:25,169 --> 00:30:28,319
Well, first of all, I would
just make a comment about Snort.

430
00:30:28,709 --> 00:30:30,389
Snort is very much still around.

431
00:30:30,939 --> 00:30:32,379
It's a great client.

432
00:30:32,379 --> 00:30:34,469
It's one of my favorite clients.

433
00:30:35,099 --> 00:30:37,279
Uh, uh, you asked about Iris.

434
00:30:37,759 --> 00:30:41,959
It's actually Marty, who is the
founder of Iris, who decided to

435
00:30:41,959 --> 00:30:44,809
join, uh, Kirin, uh, on Snort.

436
00:30:44,809 --> 00:30:47,639
So, so they're working on the
Snort, uh, code base together.

437
00:30:47,969 --> 00:30:53,509
And I think, uh, maybe, I think
they have two kind of flavors of it.

438
00:30:53,559 --> 00:30:57,169
Iris is still up and it's using
the Snort code base, I think.

439
00:30:57,169 --> 00:30:58,869
And so, so they're collaborating on this.

440
00:30:59,749 --> 00:31:03,839
Uh, Kirin is also busy with
Zapstream, which is just amazing.

441
00:31:04,422 --> 00:31:08,942
and it, when it comes to other, uh,
web clients, we need to talk about

442
00:31:08,972 --> 00:31:15,002
Corel as well, which is excellent,
as well as, uh, one, the, the, one

443
00:31:15,002 --> 00:31:21,382
of the new clients is Nodel, uh, and,
uh, and we have satellite as well.

444
00:31:21,382 --> 00:31:22,432
So there's still a number of.

445
00:31:22,982 --> 00:31:24,482
Uh, web clients.

446
00:31:25,282 --> 00:31:29,852
I think that the number of Nostr
clients of all different, uh, kind

447
00:31:29,852 --> 00:31:34,262
of on all different client platforms
is going to continue to proliferate.

448
00:31:34,896 --> 00:31:38,086
what did Primal do that's different?

449
00:31:38,166 --> 00:31:40,676
Um, maybe I think a couple of things.

450
00:31:40,806 --> 00:31:44,076
Uh, one has to do with the
caching service, definitely.

451
00:31:44,501 --> 00:31:50,191
So, um, by using this approach,
we were able to, improve the

452
00:31:50,191 --> 00:31:53,621
performance and speed of, uh, the UI.

453
00:31:54,221 --> 00:31:58,191
And the other thing we did is just
like we focused on a ton of details,

454
00:31:58,471 --> 00:32:03,356
um, you know, we, you have to, There's
a lot of work, basically, that has to

455
00:32:03,356 --> 00:32:08,536
be done for these types of clients to
work as you would expect because we

456
00:32:08,676 --> 00:32:15,219
are all competing against legacy web
clients, legacy platforms that have a

457
00:32:15,219 --> 00:32:17,341
long history and a lot of work to do.

458
00:32:17,941 --> 00:32:21,931
Both web and mobile clients have
billions of dollars behind them.

459
00:32:23,001 --> 00:32:27,369
And in most cases, you have
a single developer working

460
00:32:27,549 --> 00:32:29,819
behind one of these projects.

461
00:32:29,999 --> 00:32:31,359
It's also the case with Primal.

462
00:32:31,389 --> 00:32:33,349
So we have a fairly small team.

463
00:32:34,094 --> 00:32:36,504
we have one developer
working on the web client.

464
00:32:37,159 --> 00:32:41,319
One developer on the iOS client
and one developer on Android.

465
00:32:41,669 --> 00:32:45,949
And then we have one developer on
the backend working on the indexer

466
00:32:45,949 --> 00:32:47,169
and the caching and so forth.

467
00:32:47,959 --> 00:32:55,814
So, to answer your question, I think
what's different in our approach Uh, is

468
00:32:55,924 --> 00:33:00,444
this caching service, which we, by the
way, open sourced so that anyone can,

469
00:33:00,554 --> 00:33:02,944
any client can, can use this approach.

470
00:33:03,668 --> 00:33:10,726
and then, uh, just attention to detail,
just being willing to do a lot of UI

471
00:33:10,746 --> 00:33:16,806
work and a lot of kind of refinements
and a ton of fixes, a lot of things

472
00:33:16,856 --> 00:33:21,706
that are busted, you know, it's just
like, it's just work basically that,

473
00:33:21,716 --> 00:33:23,956
that, uh, that you need to put in.

474
00:33:24,761 --> 00:33:30,401
Yeah, we're, uh, I mean, you've done
a fantastic job, uh, within less than

475
00:33:30,421 --> 00:33:35,331
the span of less than two years, you've
constructed an app, which I use on my

476
00:33:35,341 --> 00:33:40,891
phone almost every day and on the web
every day, like, and I, at least I read

477
00:33:40,911 --> 00:33:45,331
on it every day, or maybe not post on
it every day, but it's a great, uh,

478
00:33:45,846 --> 00:33:51,346
Like, the way we're using it now, I
mean, we try to be more Nostr centric,

479
00:33:51,426 --> 00:33:55,586
uh, but, uh, the way we use it now is
as a complement to everything else, and

480
00:33:55,586 --> 00:34:00,926
it's, it's good to have this, well, if
everything else goes to shit and, uh, if

481
00:34:00,956 --> 00:34:07,776
Elon goes bonkers or something, we can
always just migrate to, to Nostr, um, it's

482
00:34:07,786 --> 00:34:12,571
very good as a complement, complementary
tool, is that the phrase, Luke?

483
00:34:12,978 --> 00:34:14,138
Yeah, I mean, I'd say so.

484
00:34:14,418 --> 00:34:18,828
And actually, maybe I can explain a
little bit about how we use Nostr.

485
00:34:18,828 --> 00:34:24,778
And I mean, the main thing is we,
we put everything currently on, on

486
00:34:24,818 --> 00:34:29,808
Twitter, just because and there's
scheduling programs and things like that.

487
00:34:29,818 --> 00:34:30,888
It's pretty easy.

488
00:34:31,158 --> 00:34:33,318
But the thing is, we also tried
to make sure that everything

489
00:34:33,328 --> 00:34:35,603
goes on to Nostr as well.

490
00:34:35,843 --> 00:34:38,883
But it feels a bit like just
putting it into a black hole.

491
00:34:39,183 --> 00:34:44,543
Like, our show actually has quite
a lot of followers and it seems

492
00:34:44,543 --> 00:34:48,113
like somehow we've made it onto
some list of things to follow.

493
00:34:48,113 --> 00:34:52,693
We constantly are getting new
followers, which is awesome.

494
00:34:53,318 --> 00:34:58,668
But whenever we post something, there's
not a lot of engagement, and I mean, it's

495
00:34:58,668 --> 00:35:05,414
hard to understand what people really
do to get engagement with Nostr, whereas

496
00:35:05,414 --> 00:35:09,848
with Twitter, it's at least a little
easier to kind of understand, because

497
00:35:09,868 --> 00:35:15,158
there's sort of a follower base, and the
algorithms work a certain way so that

498
00:35:15,948 --> 00:35:18,138
you get a certain amount of engagement.

499
00:35:18,343 --> 00:35:22,233
Whoever you're following, especially if
you scroll down the list quite a lot,

500
00:35:22,243 --> 00:35:28,713
but from, from my perspective, the, the
usability in terms of, uh, it's, it's

501
00:35:28,723 --> 00:35:35,053
either the top of the top posts, all
clients, not, not just, just primal.

502
00:35:35,053 --> 00:35:38,783
It's, it's either, it's either some
view showing the top of the top posts,

503
00:35:38,823 --> 00:35:40,893
or it's some kind of latest view.

504
00:35:41,203 --> 00:35:48,233
And that latest view is Transcribed Pretty
hard to actually use, uh, so it seems like

505
00:35:48,233 --> 00:35:55,113
discovery is still kind of different, it's
definitely easy enough to find the top

506
00:35:55,113 --> 00:35:59,753
stuff, like the best content, and I mean
that's fantastic, but it's also difficult

507
00:35:59,763 --> 00:36:02,693
to kind of break through, so I don't know.

508
00:36:02,963 --> 00:36:04,843
Kind of a, kind of an
open discussion point.

509
00:36:04,843 --> 00:36:07,973
Do you have any insights into
sort of this, this difficulty

510
00:36:08,003 --> 00:36:13,453
compared to the legacy social media
and algorithms versus a sort of

511
00:36:13,453 --> 00:36:15,363
inherently non algorithmic approach?

512
00:36:16,063 --> 00:36:20,853
Well, yeah, I mean, it's all a function of
stuff that still needs to get implemented.

513
00:36:21,449 --> 00:36:25,119
it's important to look
at Nostr on a trajectory.

514
00:36:26,129 --> 00:36:31,629
So, if we back up a year, let's
say, um, it was borderline unusable.

515
00:36:31,649 --> 00:36:33,169
This includes Primal, right?

516
00:36:33,189 --> 00:36:39,179
Like, things were just, uh You
know, not there, uh, and there, you

517
00:36:39,179 --> 00:36:42,599
know, the meme that I was referring
to earlier on in the conversation

518
00:36:42,599 --> 00:36:44,129
that Nostr was already broken.

519
00:36:44,449 --> 00:36:48,859
That's like an ongoing meme that we,
we developers, at least on Nostr, have

520
00:36:48,889 --> 00:36:52,449
everything's broken on Nostr, but we're
working on it, we're improving it.

521
00:36:53,009 --> 00:36:56,859
So, uh, if you look at where
everything was a year ago.

522
00:36:57,399 --> 00:37:00,449
Compared to where it's now, I'm
sure everyone will agree that

523
00:37:00,559 --> 00:37:02,129
we're seeing a massive improvement.

524
00:37:02,639 --> 00:37:07,949
And the types of discovery features
that we're missing, essentially, that

525
00:37:07,949 --> 00:37:13,199
you just pointed out, Luke, it's just
a matter of building the stuff out.

526
00:37:13,619 --> 00:37:16,194
And we at Primal, we're building that.

527
00:37:16,444 --> 00:37:20,634
Uh, as are other developers of
other kind of clients and services.

528
00:37:21,154 --> 00:37:27,714
But what's interesting is that the level
of kind of collaboration of, uh, kind of

529
00:37:28,334 --> 00:37:34,234
building these features out on a, on an
open protocol, where, uh, let's say if

530
00:37:34,234 --> 00:37:38,754
we broadly speaking can divide, divide
this kind of functionality into client

531
00:37:38,784 --> 00:37:44,774
apps, And then some services, and services
could include things like discovery

532
00:37:44,774 --> 00:37:50,714
services, like custom feeds, search, those
types of things, but also media hosting.

533
00:37:51,389 --> 00:37:56,659
services, uh, spam, filters,
things like that, right?

534
00:37:57,447 --> 00:38:02,397
Nostr is being built in such a
modularized way, and kind of the dream

535
00:38:02,427 --> 00:38:09,802
is that uh, within a client app like
Primal, you can decide Who, which feeds

536
00:38:09,802 --> 00:38:14,452
do you, you, you want to subscribe
through to like, so the feeds that

537
00:38:14,482 --> 00:38:16,462
might have nothing to do with primal.

538
00:38:17,112 --> 00:38:21,672
Uh, so you kind of curate
your list of feeds, uh, from

539
00:38:21,672 --> 00:38:22,932
all kinds of feed providers.

540
00:38:23,442 --> 00:38:26,442
You, uh, set your search
and discovery provider.

541
00:38:26,447 --> 00:38:28,962
You set your media hosting provider.

542
00:38:28,962 --> 00:38:30,842
You set who your.

543
00:38:31,377 --> 00:38:35,747
Who you want to rely on for some
kind of spam filtering and so forth.

544
00:38:36,207 --> 00:38:42,537
And, uh, at Primal, we are building
both the services as well as the

545
00:38:42,537 --> 00:38:44,667
clients to make this possible.

546
00:38:44,967 --> 00:38:51,087
And the idea is that our services could
also be, uh, used in a third party

547
00:38:51,127 --> 00:38:56,287
clients, uh, to the extent that, uh,
uh, those users find them valuable.

548
00:38:57,087 --> 00:39:01,477
Uh, so all of this, again, is a stark
contrast to the closed systems that

549
00:39:01,477 --> 00:39:03,407
we are ultimately competing with.

550
00:39:03,797 --> 00:39:08,537
And my point, and the answer
to your question is, this gets

551
00:39:08,537 --> 00:39:10,297
incredibly awesome over time.

552
00:39:10,857 --> 00:39:14,957
If you just look at the rate of
improvements, and the fact that

553
00:39:14,957 --> 00:39:20,457
it's all being built out in the
open, and, uh, just about everything

554
00:39:20,467 --> 00:39:22,677
built on Nostr is, is open source.

555
00:39:23,349 --> 00:39:26,459
every good idea will get
replicated by everyone.

556
00:39:27,243 --> 00:39:34,913
And, uh, bad ideas will just fall
off, and, uh, we will very soon reach

557
00:39:34,953 --> 00:39:41,033
the capabilities of the legacy web
platforms, and then we'll just surpass

558
00:39:41,033 --> 00:39:42,363
them and leave them in the dust.

559
00:39:42,563 --> 00:39:47,423
And they won't be long until
they will look dated and

560
00:39:47,613 --> 00:39:49,203
feel like relics of the past.

561
00:39:49,983 --> 00:39:52,753
Uh, I'm pretty, uh, bullish about this.

562
00:39:53,276 --> 00:39:55,796
so it's a matter of, it's
just a function of time.

563
00:39:56,391 --> 00:40:00,011
And, uh, and the effort that
all the devs are putting in.

564
00:43:15,943 --> 00:43:19,793
All right, let me devil's advocate
that one to try to poke holes in

565
00:43:19,793 --> 00:43:21,753
that argument for argument's sake.

566
00:43:22,353 --> 00:43:30,898
let's say, um, the average user of
social media does not want, this options.

567
00:43:30,958 --> 00:43:32,688
They want convenience, right?

568
00:43:32,688 --> 00:43:36,838
They don't want to be able to
select their feed algorithm.

569
00:43:36,848 --> 00:43:39,788
They want their feed algorithm
to automatically select for them

570
00:43:39,788 --> 00:43:44,678
what they look at because they're,
Basically, the social media fees

571
00:43:44,688 --> 00:43:50,688
have basically replaced the TV, uh,
in stupefying the general public.

572
00:43:50,988 --> 00:43:55,248
So, so how, how does not Nostr
ever get over that hurdle?

573
00:43:55,248 --> 00:44:00,468
I mean, I seem so many things that you
could potentially do as a bad actor.

574
00:44:00,478 --> 00:44:06,328
So like, for instance, if I If I want
to advertise my Nostr post, I fire

575
00:44:06,328 --> 00:44:16,308
up a million, uh, key pairs and I sap
myself from 999, 000 of them, uh, just

576
00:44:16,308 --> 00:44:18,808
to get my, my own post up in the feeds.

577
00:44:18,878 --> 00:44:24,108
And I simultaneously get all the
attention and I DDoS, uh, attack

578
00:44:24,128 --> 00:44:26,428
the network and I, I fuck things up.

579
00:44:27,048 --> 00:44:29,438
And also like what's preventing.

580
00:44:30,048 --> 00:44:37,498
Uh, this from developing into, uh, the
same type of monolithical, uh, monopoly

581
00:44:37,518 --> 00:44:41,998
things we see on the, in the legacy
internet where, where, because it's

582
00:44:41,998 --> 00:44:44,708
basically the email protocols, right?

583
00:44:44,748 --> 00:44:47,413
Which sort of centralized into Gmail and.

584
00:44:47,413 --> 00:44:53,753
Hotmail, or whatever else they're
called, and only a few, select few use

585
00:44:53,753 --> 00:44:59,563
ProtonMail and these alternatives, right,
and even fewer run their own SMT or

586
00:44:59,623 --> 00:45:01,263
POP3 server or whatever they're called.

587
00:45:01,583 --> 00:45:05,653
So, so, yeah, there's a question in
here somewhere, what would you say

588
00:45:05,693 --> 00:45:07,503
to that kind of criticism in general?

589
00:45:08,808 --> 00:45:11,448
think I can identify
three questions there.

590
00:45:11,698 --> 00:45:13,158
Three completely separate questions.

591
00:45:13,158 --> 00:45:14,598
So let's unpack them one by one.

592
00:45:14,888 --> 00:45:15,088
So the

593
00:45:15,383 --> 00:45:15,993
I couldn't.

594
00:45:16,475 --> 00:45:21,935
so, so if I followed you correctly,
uh, your first question was, uh, what

595
00:45:21,935 --> 00:45:25,495
do we do with users who don't want
to, don't want the bells and whistles?

596
00:45:25,495 --> 00:45:29,545
They just want simple apps like TikTok
that open and give them their feed.

597
00:45:29,545 --> 00:45:30,885
Like, that's question number one.

598
00:45:31,370 --> 00:45:33,450
Well, well, no, no, not really.

599
00:45:33,710 --> 00:45:35,100
The question is more like.

600
00:45:35,470 --> 00:45:40,520
Um, will you ever get the, because
there's a first mover advantage for the

601
00:45:40,520 --> 00:45:45,800
old legacy apps, like, so, so how, how
can Nostr ever compete with that and,

602
00:45:45,840 --> 00:45:51,540
and achieve the same network effect if
it requires the users to be so active?

603
00:45:52,235 --> 00:45:55,845
Won't the, won't the old users
just stay at their old platforms?

604
00:45:55,845 --> 00:46:00,005
Aren't they already lured in and sort
of like glued to their TV sets already?

605
00:46:00,005 --> 00:46:06,855
And will just being better in general
really pull them over to your network?

606
00:46:06,855 --> 00:46:08,685
Or will they stay in the old system?

607
00:46:08,845 --> 00:46:10,265
Something like that is the question.

608
00:46:10,850 --> 00:46:13,760
that is the toughest challenge
that Nostr is facing.

609
00:46:13,780 --> 00:46:18,060
So dealing with battling network
effects that have already been

610
00:46:18,100 --> 00:46:23,780
strongly established with the
incumbents, you know, like Twitter,

611
00:46:24,050 --> 00:46:26,360
Facebook, Reddit, and the others.

612
00:46:26,973 --> 00:46:31,493
I don't think that features
will get users to move over.

613
00:46:31,918 --> 00:46:36,508
Um, in terms of bells and whistles,
because they get enough of bells and

614
00:46:36,508 --> 00:46:41,488
whistles everywhere else, and the biggest
feature in, let's say, social media apps

615
00:46:41,518 --> 00:46:46,028
is the network itself, the notion that,
you know, that everyone's already there.

616
00:46:46,918 --> 00:46:53,128
Uh, so this is a big, uh, so again,
we're referring now to a subset

617
00:46:53,128 --> 00:46:58,154
of Nostr applications that, are,
let's say, focusing on social media.

618
00:46:58,364 --> 00:46:59,994
It's just kind of for clarity here.

619
00:47:01,531 --> 00:47:07,981
this is a major problem, and I think,
uh, interesting features like zaps,

620
00:47:07,991 --> 00:47:14,461
for example, um, might be attractive to
Bitcoiners, but to a larger audience,

621
00:47:14,991 --> 00:47:19,691
that's kind of like, uh, it's questionable
whether that something like that will

622
00:47:19,701 --> 00:47:21,341
bring them over and get them to stay.

623
00:47:22,098 --> 00:47:24,318
I think at the end of the
day, it's going to be content.

624
00:47:25,308 --> 00:47:31,748
so, so when it comes to general
audiences, uh, the value proposition

625
00:47:31,748 --> 00:47:33,978
of Nostr at the moment is not amazing.

626
00:47:33,978 --> 00:47:37,208
It's, uh, it's like, okay, well,
this is an interesting new network.

627
00:47:37,208 --> 00:47:41,138
Maybe it has some kind of censorship
resistance features, which let's

628
00:47:41,188 --> 00:47:45,138
say the majority doesn't, let's be
honest, majority doesn't care about.

629
00:47:45,908 --> 00:47:49,098
Uh, so it's a tough, it's a tough
pitch to the general audience.

630
00:47:50,278 --> 00:47:53,738
However, to content creators, I think.

631
00:47:54,303 --> 00:47:58,673
Uh, it, that type of pitch
becomes more interesting.

632
00:47:59,523 --> 00:48:04,773
And if we can get a certain kind of a
critical mass of content creators to

633
00:48:04,803 --> 00:48:09,983
adopt Nostr, at least partially, at least
kind of in addition to all the other

634
00:48:10,123 --> 00:48:14,233
platforms that were there already, uh,
you know, present, just like you guys.

635
00:48:14,613 --> 00:48:17,688
So you guys are actually a
great, uh, example of that.

636
00:48:18,008 --> 00:48:23,979
How this might evolve, pitch to content
creators is completely different.

637
00:48:24,599 --> 00:48:29,819
The pitch is, whatever you
build on Nostr is yours forever.

638
00:48:30,502 --> 00:48:33,872
unlike all the other platforms,
you build your audience on Nostr,

639
00:48:34,552 --> 00:48:36,132
that cannot be taken away from you.

640
00:48:36,432 --> 00:48:42,252
As long as you control the key to your
content, uh, and your online identity,

641
00:48:42,758 --> 00:48:44,208
no one can take away your followers.

642
00:48:44,308 --> 00:48:45,328
So that's interesting.

643
00:48:46,055 --> 00:48:51,850
And when it comes to, uh, compensation,
of revenue coming in, as we

644
00:48:51,850 --> 00:48:53,570
said previously, how about 100%?

645
00:48:54,506 --> 00:48:58,796
And we get you to decide
what, how that gets split.

646
00:49:00,916 --> 00:49:06,916
Correct me if I'm wrong, I'm not a content
creator, you guys are, uh, but, uh, you

647
00:49:06,916 --> 00:49:12,696
know, to me that seems like it would be
an interesting and intriguing pitch to a

648
00:49:12,706 --> 00:49:17,476
content creator, even though it currently
comes along with a, with a relatively,

649
00:49:17,506 --> 00:49:19,366
well, very small network comparatively.

650
00:49:19,606 --> 00:49:20,416
to the other ones.

651
00:49:20,916 --> 00:49:28,926
But maybe, uh, it's justifiable to spend
a bit of time to incorporate Nostr into

652
00:49:28,926 --> 00:49:31,836
your kind of publishing activities,
but curious to get your take on it.

653
00:49:33,183 --> 00:49:36,963
We absolutely want to do that, and
we already do that, and we plan to

654
00:49:36,963 --> 00:49:43,253
do more of it because as you say that
the, like we have, we have talks me

655
00:49:43,258 --> 00:49:47,633
and Luke all the time about what this
thing is and what we want to do with

656
00:49:47,633 --> 00:49:52,403
it and what we can achieve with it and
what, what the purpose of sitting here

657
00:49:52,403 --> 00:49:54,023
talking to interesting people every day.

658
00:49:54,548 --> 00:49:55,118
Really is.

659
00:49:55,778 --> 00:50:01,618
And to us, we want these messages
and what we talk about on the show

660
00:50:01,618 --> 00:50:06,638
to go out to quality listeners,
rather than a quantity of listeners.

661
00:50:06,998 --> 00:50:11,228
And of course, there's no clear
line, distinct line between the two.

662
00:50:11,228 --> 00:50:14,648
You can't really have one without the
other because the quality listeners won't

663
00:50:14,668 --> 00:50:18,808
find you if you don't make at least a
little bit of noise on the internet.

664
00:50:18,808 --> 00:50:21,288
So you need to play,
play these games, right?

665
00:50:21,468 --> 00:50:22,168
And, and, uh, and play them.

666
00:50:22,778 --> 00:50:27,508
And to get the kind of following that
you really want, because I want all

667
00:50:27,508 --> 00:50:32,748
the fans of this show to be people that
I'd gladly go out and have a pint with

668
00:50:32,749 --> 00:50:36,688
and, and talk Bitcoin or Nostr with,
like, or, or anything else interesting.

669
00:50:37,156 --> 00:50:41,096
and I think we almost have that
every time I, I meet a fan of the

670
00:50:41,096 --> 00:50:43,226
show, it's a person I like, like, so.

671
00:50:43,781 --> 00:50:44,791
It's, it's great.

672
00:50:45,431 --> 00:50:48,511
but of course, yeah, so right back at you.

673
00:50:48,511 --> 00:50:50,981
If you want to see more
of us on Nostr, well,

674
00:50:53,561 --> 00:50:59,301
zap away, or, uh, I mean, we're going
to go where we get appreciated, but

675
00:50:59,301 --> 00:51:04,341
we're also appreciative of the fact that
we can own our own content on Nostr.

676
00:51:04,341 --> 00:51:05,931
So yeah, absolutely.

677
00:51:05,931 --> 00:51:08,781
We will increase our presence on Nostr.

678
00:51:09,456 --> 00:51:12,566
Have you considered, I don't know
if you're aware of this feature that

679
00:51:12,586 --> 00:51:16,256
I think Pablo rolled out relatively
recently, where you can create some

680
00:51:16,256 --> 00:51:23,019
sort of, uh, like a backstage, setup
for maybe some exclusive content

681
00:51:23,019 --> 00:51:25,089
for people who subscribe to your.

682
00:51:25,529 --> 00:51:25,849
Content.

683
00:51:25,879 --> 00:51:30,209
I don't know how that fits in the overall
content strategy for you, but it's an

684
00:51:30,209 --> 00:51:32,479
interesting, uh, addition, hopefully.

685
00:51:33,180 --> 00:51:36,050
Yeah, I, I think I heard him
talk about it on Madeira.

686
00:51:36,050 --> 00:51:40,110
I find that there's a lot of memories
to flip through from Madeira.

687
00:51:40,140 --> 00:51:41,550
So I don't remember it.

688
00:51:41,670 --> 00:51:46,990
It's all a blur, but, but anyway, that,
yeah, that's sort of like a paywall.

689
00:51:46,990 --> 00:51:48,540
And we, we try not to do that.

690
00:51:48,540 --> 00:51:52,760
We want to be as, as, uh, open
with what we create as we can.

691
00:51:52,760 --> 00:51:55,900
I, we're not big believers
in intellectual property.

692
00:51:56,650 --> 00:51:57,370
Okay, right.

693
00:51:58,920 --> 00:52:02,640
so, so, uh, so, uh, but, but
that's a balance too, of course.

694
00:52:02,830 --> 00:52:03,510
And yeah.

695
00:52:03,670 --> 00:52:09,270
Um, I posted one book on Nostr, but it's
unsure if I'll post the others anytime

696
00:52:09,270 --> 00:52:11,950
soon, especially if it breaks clients.

697
00:52:12,690 --> 00:52:15,530
So, yeah, that's the
general attitude, I think.

698
00:52:17,770 --> 00:52:22,430
What's interesting, I think, for people,
uh, that produce content, especially

699
00:52:22,460 --> 00:52:27,260
the type of content that you guys
produce, there is something Interesting

700
00:52:27,260 --> 00:52:34,570
about signing that with your key
before you put it out into the world.

701
00:52:35,260 --> 00:52:38,250
It's, it's quite unique to have that.

702
00:52:38,500 --> 00:52:40,960
And you know, you
publish it anywhere else.

703
00:52:41,260 --> 00:52:43,250
There is no proof.

704
00:52:43,550 --> 00:52:47,180
People can't know that this
wasn't tampered with in any way.

705
00:52:47,180 --> 00:52:52,980
They can't, they can't know for sure that
this was, uh, your own words unaltered.

706
00:52:53,380 --> 00:52:55,860
Uh, but with Nostr, you get that for free.

707
00:52:55,870 --> 00:52:57,590
You, you sign your note.

708
00:52:58,060 --> 00:52:59,270
And that's forever.

709
00:52:59,440 --> 00:53:02,270
We have cryptographic
proof that Knut said this.

710
00:53:03,320 --> 00:53:06,700
Uh, and we know that for sure
because it's signed with his key.

711
00:53:07,632 --> 00:53:11,872
Well, how do you know that
the, that the one signing off

712
00:53:11,902 --> 00:53:13,762
as me really is me, though?

713
00:53:13,772 --> 00:53:17,862
This is a five year old question,
but, like, someone else could pose

714
00:53:17,892 --> 00:53:22,222
as me, with another key pair, and
just say, I'm Knut's new account,

715
00:53:22,242 --> 00:53:26,312
don't worry about the old one, it's
hacked, and pretend to be me, right?

716
00:53:26,957 --> 00:53:31,487
So this is the kind of question around
bots and impersonators and so forth.

717
00:53:31,517 --> 00:53:37,117
So, for the listeners, anyone can create
a key pair super easily, and then you

718
00:53:37,137 --> 00:53:41,817
can copy somebody's profile metadata
very easily, you know, the profile

719
00:53:41,827 --> 00:53:44,477
photo, labels and so forth, the bio.

720
00:53:44,817 --> 00:53:46,137
And there we have another Knut.

721
00:53:46,794 --> 00:53:50,134
the answer is, uh, Web of Trust, again.

722
00:53:50,624 --> 00:53:56,214
And these are fairly simple algorithms
that are able to filter out the bots.

723
00:53:56,754 --> 00:54:05,104
And, uh, we have enough of a user base
on Nostr to be able to decipher real, uh,

724
00:54:05,154 --> 00:54:08,304
Knut from maybe thousands of fake Knuts.

725
00:54:09,204 --> 00:54:10,514
Uh, and this works.

726
00:54:10,574 --> 00:54:11,374
It works today.

727
00:54:12,454 --> 00:54:13,584
And it's actually,

728
00:54:13,974 --> 00:54:17,334
people, like, vouching for me being me?

729
00:54:17,514 --> 00:54:20,904
Sorry for interrupting, but
is there a vouching thing?

730
00:54:22,214 --> 00:54:23,674
vouching by following you.

731
00:54:23,941 --> 00:54:28,761
and this kind of implicitly just happens
through the follow relationships and in

732
00:54:28,761 --> 00:54:30,891
the graph, nothing else needs to be done.

733
00:54:31,621 --> 00:54:34,591
You can very easily filter out bots.

734
00:54:34,741 --> 00:54:40,541
You can filter out, uh, even if humans
are trying to bring in a million bots

735
00:54:40,541 --> 00:54:43,811
or something like that through their
human account, that gets filtered

736
00:54:44,081 --> 00:54:45,561
through the, through the algorithm.

737
00:54:46,081 --> 00:54:52,971
And, uh, this is a solved problem on
Nostr, and I'll just underline once again,

738
00:54:53,431 --> 00:55:00,599
no one's in charge, uh, it's just network
participants, uh, acting in their own self

739
00:55:00,599 --> 00:55:03,859
interest, and this thing somehow works.

740
00:55:04,364 --> 00:55:08,644
And we have maybe a couple hundred
thousand human accounts on Nostr and,

741
00:55:08,907 --> 00:55:11,357
this, and we have this capability today.

742
00:55:11,844 --> 00:55:16,514
I mean, it's great because, as you say,
like, when you give something away to

743
00:55:16,574 --> 00:55:22,934
another entity, especially going into
the future here with AI things becoming

744
00:55:22,934 --> 00:55:25,804
better and better, you never know
what people are going to do to your

745
00:55:25,804 --> 00:55:28,434
voice or to video recordings of you.

746
00:55:29,324 --> 00:55:34,154
It's very easy to impersonate other people
today, much easier than ever before,

747
00:55:34,174 --> 00:55:36,664
so maybe this is the remedy for that.

748
00:55:37,182 --> 00:55:39,292
Sounds like you think
that that is the case.

749
00:55:40,722 --> 00:55:44,302
it's a remedy to a problem that's going
to get a lot worse, like you said.

750
00:55:44,812 --> 00:55:49,202
And, uh, I haven't thought
about this enough, but it,

751
00:55:49,372 --> 00:55:51,072
it might be the only remedy.

752
00:55:51,831 --> 00:55:57,221
Signed content by cryptographic
identities through, uh, identified

753
00:55:57,221 --> 00:56:01,616
through a global, uh, Web of Trust
might be the only solution to this.

754
00:56:02,632 --> 00:56:03,142
Okay.

755
00:56:03,772 --> 00:56:10,142
The only thing here is like, uh,
that comes to mind, uh, in terms of

756
00:56:10,432 --> 00:56:15,322
actual protection from, From bots
and the likes of them, uh, in the

757
00:56:15,322 --> 00:56:19,322
future, because these bots are going
to get more sophisticated as well.

758
00:56:19,342 --> 00:56:19,762
Right.

759
00:56:19,852 --> 00:56:25,779
And, um, the saying in Bitcoin goes,
not your keys, not your coins, but isn't

760
00:56:25,809 --> 00:56:30,749
the flip side of that, not your coins,
not your information, because if you

761
00:56:30,749 --> 00:56:36,139
don't have an actual asset attached
to the information, like you have in

762
00:56:36,139 --> 00:56:41,637
Bitcoin, Then it's much harder to know
if that information is actually true.

763
00:56:41,897 --> 00:56:43,327
Does this make any sense to you?

764
00:56:43,337 --> 00:56:47,627
Like, is there, is there a flip
side of the Bitcoin ethos here that,

765
00:56:47,637 --> 00:56:53,267
that is yet to be explored in the
Nostr, um, under the Nostr umbrella?

766
00:56:53,907 --> 00:56:54,347
I don't know.

767
00:56:54,387 --> 00:56:57,237
I'm not sure if I follow the question.

768
00:56:57,357 --> 00:56:58,827
Maybe if you want to elaborate on it.

769
00:56:59,378 --> 00:57:02,168
Yeah, maybe I'm just
trying to sound smart here.

770
00:57:02,168 --> 00:57:03,128
What do you think, Luke?

771
00:57:03,358 --> 00:57:04,058
Uh, did you

772
00:57:05,768 --> 00:57:12,608
Well, okay, if I would sort of try to
translate Knut's Knutisms, uh, the,

773
00:57:12,678 --> 00:57:17,818
um, uh, I guess, I guess one thought
here that comes to mind for me is that,

774
00:57:17,828 --> 00:57:23,511
is that, Bitcoin as the decentralized
monetary network actually does have

775
00:57:23,511 --> 00:57:28,201
some, some capabilities to be sort of
a spam defense and then Nostr being

776
00:57:28,201 --> 00:57:32,661
the communication protocol that has the
public private key identification system.

777
00:57:33,001 --> 00:57:36,071
These two things can actually work
entirely interchangeably, right?

778
00:57:36,071 --> 00:57:39,561
And they, and they do with, with
the, uh, you, you can have your

779
00:57:39,561 --> 00:57:43,661
same address for receiving and
sending from, from Lightning, right?

780
00:57:43,661 --> 00:57:47,301
And, uh, and so I guess the
interconnectedness between those

781
00:57:47,411 --> 00:57:52,646
two things is like, um, To what
extent is, is Bitcoin required

782
00:57:52,676 --> 00:57:54,226
to actually make Nostr work?

783
00:57:54,226 --> 00:58:01,826
Like, grounding Nostr in the monetary
system that is going to change the

784
00:58:01,826 --> 00:58:05,276
world and then become the, the base
of the monetary system for the next

785
00:58:05,276 --> 00:58:09,986
thousand years or something like that,
or ever, forever, or whatever it is.

786
00:58:10,528 --> 00:58:11,588
That's a great question.

787
00:58:11,748 --> 00:58:20,798
So, um, so Bitcoin and Nostr are separate
protocols, separate and related protocols.

788
00:58:21,108 --> 00:58:23,685
So each protocol, stands on its own.

789
00:58:23,795 --> 00:58:25,755
It doesn't need the other one to function.

790
00:58:26,428 --> 00:58:29,668
But I think they have a symbiotic
relationship in the sense that

791
00:58:29,718 --> 00:58:31,208
each makes the other one better.

792
00:58:32,098 --> 00:58:37,228
And, uh, it's fairly obvious
how Bitcoin makes Nostr better.

793
00:58:37,848 --> 00:58:44,008
Uh, we, uh, already talked about
zaps and this ability to potentially

794
00:58:44,288 --> 00:58:48,128
reshape the incentive structure for
the web using Nostr and Bitcoin.

795
00:58:48,908 --> 00:58:52,518
I think it's a little bit less
obvious, uh, to Bitcoiners,

796
00:58:52,518 --> 00:58:55,338
especially those Bitcoiners who
are not paying attention to Nostr.

797
00:58:55,538 --> 00:58:59,278
It's, it's less obvious how
Nostr makes Bitcoin better.

798
00:58:59,878 --> 00:59:03,368
And, uh, I think those who are sleep,
those Bitcoiners who are sleeping

799
00:59:03,368 --> 00:59:04,988
on Nostr are kind of missing out.

800
00:59:05,028 --> 00:59:09,558
And, um, this is one of my
Uh, favorite topics, actually,

801
00:59:09,558 --> 00:59:11,228
so I'm happy to dive into it.

802
00:59:11,772 --> 00:59:14,362
I don't know if I'm answering
your question by this, but,

803
00:59:14,472 --> 00:59:16,752
uh I'll dive in anyway.

804
00:59:17,112 --> 00:59:17,562
Okay.

805
00:59:17,682 --> 00:59:18,092
All right.

806
00:59:18,462 --> 00:59:23,062
So Nostr makes Bitcoin better
in a number of different ways.

807
00:59:23,382 --> 00:59:28,652
So the first one is, since we have
this global web of trust of public

808
00:59:28,652 --> 00:59:35,392
identities, most of whom have their
Lightning address defined as a part of

809
00:59:35,392 --> 00:59:41,992
their public profile, what has emerged
here within, with Nostr is the global.

810
00:59:42,392 --> 00:59:44,262
Public Lightning Directory.

811
00:59:45,422 --> 00:59:50,602
So, uh, to send payments between
Bitcoiners, you can literally

812
00:59:50,602 --> 00:59:53,882
look someone up and send them a
payment because we have Nostr.

813
00:59:54,662 --> 01:00:00,292
And you, you look them up, you literally
go to Primal or Mutiny or any wallet that

814
01:00:00,312 --> 01:00:02,712
supports, uh, that has Nostr integration.

815
01:00:03,082 --> 01:00:07,197
And by the way, I think All Bitcoin
wallets will have Nostr integration.

816
01:00:07,387 --> 01:00:08,897
This is a no brainer.

817
01:00:09,197 --> 01:00:10,307
It's just a matter of time.

818
01:00:11,787 --> 01:00:17,247
This is like a massive improvement
in the UX of sending payments.

819
01:00:17,757 --> 01:00:20,657
Think about the situation where,
let's say, you're splitting your

820
01:00:20,717 --> 01:00:22,427
lunch bill among five people.

821
01:00:22,757 --> 01:00:25,537
Currently, the person who paid
needs to create four invoices.

822
01:00:25,842 --> 01:00:30,312
One by one, and then it needs to be
scanned and so forth without Nostr.

823
01:00:30,602 --> 01:00:35,112
But with Nostr, everyone looks up the
person, sends them the payment, it's done,

824
01:00:35,712 --> 01:00:40,372
uh, and the person who paid it doesn't
need to do anything, which seems fair.

825
01:00:40,942 --> 01:00:42,232
Uh, so that's.

826
01:00:42,722 --> 01:00:47,502
The first and kind of more obvious, uh,
way in which Nostr makes Bitcoin better.

827
01:00:48,322 --> 01:00:54,852
Uh, then we have, uh, Mint
discovery for Chomi on eCash.

828
01:00:55,648 --> 01:00:57,548
this is an extremely important topic.

829
01:00:57,558 --> 01:01:02,568
First of all, Chomi on eCash is
extremely exciting and probably

830
01:01:02,568 --> 01:01:04,628
the future of Bitcoin payments.

831
01:01:05,378 --> 01:01:11,043
It might take some time and especially
currently it's, it's, uh, um, Questionable

832
01:01:11,043 --> 01:01:16,516
whether commercial entities are going
to be able to, uh, provide mints, uh,

833
01:01:16,516 --> 01:01:21,056
or even participate in mint feder in,
in mint federations, like for FettyMint.

834
01:01:21,806 --> 01:01:27,336
So, there is this inherent
problem of mint discovery.

835
01:01:27,346 --> 01:01:32,236
Like, if I'm a new eCash user, let's
say I'm a Cashew user and I'm trying

836
01:01:32,236 --> 01:01:37,996
to decide which Cashew mint to use,
I can use my Nostr web of trust to

837
01:01:37,996 --> 01:01:43,033
see which, users I'm connected to
are using which mints and basically,

838
01:01:43,113 --> 01:01:45,393
uh, provide mint discovery that way.

839
01:01:45,799 --> 01:01:51,089
this is already being used in,
uh, Cashew wallets and in, and

840
01:01:51,149 --> 01:01:53,049
Mutiny, uh, for Fetty Mint.

841
01:01:53,449 --> 01:01:54,539
It's a massive community.

842
01:01:54,804 --> 01:01:59,444
Uh, addition in terms of
practical capabilities for,

843
01:01:59,504 --> 01:02:01,014
for Bitcoin, uh, payments.

844
01:02:01,944 --> 01:02:07,454
then we have things like,
uh, just protecting speech.

845
01:02:08,384 --> 01:02:10,144
It's kind of a big deal for Bitcoin too.

846
01:02:10,484 --> 01:02:16,839
Let's say you're a monetary, uh,
maximalist, uh, as maybe A lot of us are.

847
01:02:17,379 --> 01:02:22,149
Uh, let's say you're not too interested in
payments, uh, in the, in the short term.

848
01:02:22,559 --> 01:02:27,232
Uh, you, but you care about
the monetary, kind of base

849
01:02:27,242 --> 01:02:29,552
money capabilities of Bitcoin.

850
01:02:30,128 --> 01:02:35,174
Well, if, The fiat system is
designed to steal from you.

851
01:02:35,504 --> 01:02:37,754
That's kind of the core of the system.

852
01:02:38,054 --> 01:02:45,434
And the only way the fiat system can
perpetuate this is by lying about

853
01:02:45,814 --> 01:02:50,064
what they're doing and is by kind of
controlling the flow of information.

854
01:02:50,624 --> 01:02:56,014
Uh, and, uh, Nostr has the
capability to break that.

855
01:02:56,814 --> 01:03:02,224
Uh, so even if you're, uh, if
your main concern about Bitcoin is

856
01:03:02,244 --> 01:03:07,214
protecting the monetary qualities of
Bitcoin, Nostr still is, uh, relevant.

857
01:03:07,730 --> 01:03:11,150
there are, like, I think a couple
of other, um, examples where

858
01:03:11,230 --> 01:03:14,040
Nostr makes Bitcoin better.

859
01:03:14,355 --> 01:03:15,845
let's say onboarding new Bitcoiners.

860
01:03:16,677 --> 01:03:23,636
This is, this is something we're
observing with Nostr, where Nostr is

861
01:03:23,636 --> 01:03:25,166
onboarding users who are not Bitcoiners.

862
01:03:26,066 --> 01:03:31,346
And then through either the fact that
they're being exposed to a lot of

863
01:03:31,346 --> 01:03:35,916
Bitcoiners at Nostr currently, maybe
that in combination of kind of being

864
01:03:35,916 --> 01:03:38,886
intrigued about the zapping capabilities.

865
01:03:39,326 --> 01:03:45,791
We are actually observing many new
Bitcoiners being, created through

866
01:03:45,811 --> 01:03:51,921
by coming through Nostr, through
a more casual kind of, um, uh,

867
01:03:51,921 --> 01:03:57,717
environment and, taking a little
bit of time to actually wake up

868
01:03:57,777 --> 01:04:00,017
and, you know, take the orange pill.

869
01:04:00,417 --> 01:04:03,667
And at Primal, we are quite
interested in this dynamic.

870
01:04:04,217 --> 01:04:08,747
And we've decided to build a wallet
into the, our, into our clients.

871
01:04:09,407 --> 01:04:14,067
Uh, to make this process even smoother,
so we can talk more about that.

872
01:04:14,107 --> 01:04:17,924
So that's another reason why,
Bitcoiners should care about Nostr.

873
01:04:18,204 --> 01:04:23,831
And then maybe the final one is, those
of us who are already on Nostr are

874
01:04:23,831 --> 01:04:30,041
noticing that the vibe, uh, and the
quality of the conversation on Nostr

875
01:04:30,041 --> 01:04:34,096
is different than it is on Twitter
and, and, uh, Reddit, and so forth.

876
01:04:34,096 --> 01:04:37,356
It's much more informal.

877
01:04:37,416 --> 01:04:43,296
It's less, how would I say it, like
when you, when you, it's less official

878
01:04:43,366 --> 01:04:47,686
sounding, it's less defensive, you
know, like a lot of times when you

879
01:04:47,686 --> 01:04:51,986
post something on Twitter, you're
kind of preparing for the trolls to

880
01:04:52,036 --> 01:04:55,426
come out and you're kind of, you're
forming your argument, you know, in

881
01:04:55,426 --> 01:04:59,346
a defensive manner where you're kind
of, Pre empting the attacks that are

882
01:04:59,346 --> 01:05:01,106
inevitably coming and stuff like that.

883
01:05:01,557 --> 01:05:05,067
and then there's just a kind of
the, the general vibe on Twitter

884
01:05:05,067 --> 01:05:10,017
is, uh, can be quite kind of
negative and draining and so forth.

885
01:05:10,287 --> 01:05:11,427
This is not the case on Nostr.

886
01:05:12,107 --> 01:05:17,807
If you, uh, come to, uh, on Nostr and
you, you kind of scroll, instead of doom

887
01:05:17,807 --> 01:05:23,182
scrolling, it's kind of hope scrolling
and you see, You know, people like Jack

888
01:05:23,182 --> 01:05:27,332
Dorsey being a little bit more open than
they would be maybe on, on Twitter, even

889
01:05:27,332 --> 01:05:31,252
though this is like an open network and
anyone can read it quite easily, can,

890
01:05:31,472 --> 01:05:35,512
can access this content in an easier
manner than on Twitter, without being

891
01:05:35,512 --> 01:05:37,852
logged in, the tone is somehow different.

892
01:05:38,677 --> 01:05:43,167
So I think, I'm hoping that they've kind
of outlined a number of good arguments

893
01:05:43,167 --> 01:05:46,187
for Bitcoiners to take a closer look.

894
01:05:46,417 --> 01:05:52,527
And then I guess the last, the last reason
maybe, this is becoming like the Spanish

895
01:05:52,537 --> 01:05:54,747
Inquisition sketch, there's one more.

896
01:05:55,276 --> 01:05:58,176
the last reason is, are you kidding me?

897
01:05:58,721 --> 01:05:59,101
Reason.

898
01:06:00,391 --> 01:06:04,861
And the are you kidding me
question is, are you kidding me?

899
01:06:04,861 --> 01:06:10,391
You're a bitcoiner and you're, you're not
okay with someone else holding keys to

900
01:06:10,391 --> 01:06:15,181
your money, but you're okay with someone
else holding the keys to your speech?

901
01:06:15,731 --> 01:06:16,471
Are you kidding me?

902
01:06:17,121 --> 01:06:22,661
Like, you know, all the censorship
aside, anyone, like, Elon

903
01:06:22,661 --> 01:06:23,811
can post from your account.

904
01:06:25,151 --> 01:06:25,941
That's insane.

905
01:06:26,612 --> 01:06:31,852
I think we will look back at this,
uh, you know, stage of our history as

906
01:06:31,872 --> 01:06:37,092
kind of the stone age of our online
lives before they were improved

907
01:06:37,112 --> 01:06:38,892
for the better forever by Nostr.

908
01:06:39,892 --> 01:06:42,622
Yeah, this fantastic, fantastic pitch.

909
01:06:42,632 --> 01:06:44,662
And I love all the points.

910
01:06:44,762 --> 01:06:46,382
Makes me think of start nine.

911
01:06:47,591 --> 01:06:52,481
the only thing I could think of as, as
like FUD for you to debunk here regarding

912
01:06:52,481 --> 01:06:59,011
these points is the, um, Uh, turning Nostr
into a registry for people's lightning

913
01:06:59,011 --> 01:07:01,621
addresses, that, that might be a honeypot.

914
01:07:01,971 --> 01:07:07,731
Like, if, if you're not a nym, but,
uh, uh, if you've given away your

915
01:07:07,731 --> 01:07:11,351
identity and, and your lightning
address is connected to that and it's

916
01:07:11,351 --> 01:07:16,151
easily find on Nostr, like, there
might be a 6102 at some point where

917
01:07:16,941 --> 01:07:20,051
men with guns come and do stuff to
people on Nostr, what do you think?

918
01:07:20,610 --> 01:07:25,680
Well, uh, people need to be aware
of the fact that these are, this

919
01:07:25,680 --> 01:07:27,540
is all publicly accessible data.

920
01:07:28,070 --> 01:07:32,540
So, to the extent that you're, that
you wish to have your Lightning address

921
01:07:32,540 --> 01:07:39,880
publicly accessible, you can have
that in, uh, in a, in a Nostr profile,

922
01:07:40,330 --> 01:07:41,880
and people will be able to find it.

923
01:07:42,530 --> 01:07:49,230
Uh, and I think this is, uh, Uh,
appropriate for kind of payments that

924
01:07:49,400 --> 01:07:53,940
should be in the public domain, payments
like zaps where you're doing essentially,

925
01:07:54,320 --> 01:07:59,450
you're not only transferring value to the
content creator, you're also doing public,

926
01:07:59,490 --> 01:08:04,410
public signaling, uh, to the rest of the
network that you think that this content

927
01:08:04,450 --> 01:08:07,040
is valuable or interesting and so forth.

928
01:08:07,490 --> 01:08:16,340
So there is, um, there is room for
publicly visible, uh, Payments for these

929
01:08:16,380 --> 01:08:21,800
particular reasons, and then there's
obviously the majority of payments

930
01:08:21,800 --> 01:08:29,230
should be private, and those shouldn't
be mixed, so these wallets should not

931
01:08:30,040 --> 01:08:32,460
be kind of connected in any manner.

932
01:08:32,870 --> 01:08:38,529
If you're to preserve your privacy
fully, don't connect it to your

933
01:08:38,529 --> 01:08:42,379
public, don't connect those payments
to your public, uh, Nostr profile.

934
01:10:20,763 --> 01:10:24,023
Yeah, those are some good best
practices and yeah, I think, I

935
01:10:24,023 --> 01:10:30,443
think, at least maybe a good way to
mitigate that potential attack avenue.

936
01:10:30,603 --> 01:10:35,793
Now, since we're on the FUD topic a
little bit, we've had some conversations

937
01:10:35,813 --> 01:10:40,763
with, with other folks who have opinions
about Nostr, but I, I think, I think

938
01:10:40,763 --> 01:10:45,943
you're actually the first time we've
had a, like a proper Nostr developer on.

939
01:10:46,463 --> 01:10:49,123
And, and I think the, the,
the thing here is that we've.

940
01:10:49,408 --> 01:10:52,488
we've talked about some sort of
FUD scenarios here in terms of

941
01:10:52,778 --> 01:10:57,688
especially the scalability of Nostr
and, and a lot of this is coming

942
01:10:57,688 --> 01:11:02,078
down to that relays are essentially
a point of centralization, right?

943
01:11:02,558 --> 01:11:07,568
And, and so is there a risk here that
Nostr will hit kind of a critical

944
01:11:07,568 --> 01:11:13,048
mass and then the architecture
won't really be scalable anymore?

945
01:11:13,428 --> 01:11:18,178
And Maybe just to sort of calibrate
that a little further that something

946
01:11:18,178 --> 01:11:23,228
like relays will become so expensive
that it's impossible to run them

947
01:11:23,238 --> 01:11:27,704
without, the costs rising to the
point that they say price people out.

948
01:11:27,744 --> 01:11:28,844
So same effect.

949
01:11:29,284 --> 01:11:31,974
Uh, what do you think about that in
terms of the scalability of Nostr?

950
01:11:32,431 --> 01:11:33,461
That's a great question.

951
01:11:33,621 --> 01:11:42,781
And, uh, the kind of, the common practices
among Nostr clients up until recently have

952
01:11:42,781 --> 01:11:47,531
been such that most clients, including
Primal, uh, were kind of onboarding people

953
01:11:47,531 --> 01:11:49,781
onto, you know, the top dozen relays.

954
01:11:50,614 --> 01:11:54,244
and just by default, you kind of, we,
we had like a static list of the most

955
01:11:54,244 --> 01:11:59,124
popular relays and then everyone's
content was easy to find because like

956
01:11:59,724 --> 01:12:05,604
you can interrogate those relays,
which obviously isn't scalable.

957
01:12:06,124 --> 01:12:11,014
And, uh, you, you asked if there
is a risk that, you know, an noster

958
01:12:11,014 --> 01:12:16,604
one scale, if, you know, we, uh, do
stuff like that, there's no risk.

959
01:12:16,604 --> 01:12:18,434
The chance is a hundred
percent at one scale.

960
01:12:19,309 --> 01:12:25,939
There's no risk involved, uh, so obviously
this was identified, uh, and, uh, we now

961
01:12:25,939 --> 01:12:28,949
within Nostr, I don't know how much you
guys are following this, these are kind

962
01:12:28,949 --> 01:12:35,287
of developer, uh, topics, but, we do have,
uh, protocol within Nostr, which is called

963
01:12:35,287 --> 01:12:43,982
Gossip or Outbox model, which is meant to
kind of spread out the users amongst all

964
01:12:43,982 --> 01:12:46,312
of the known publicly accessible relays.

965
01:12:46,352 --> 01:12:50,142
So we're not onboarding the
latest versions of Primal and

966
01:12:50,192 --> 01:12:56,182
many other Nostr apps are not just
using the top 10 relays approach.

967
01:12:56,527 --> 01:13:02,437
You actually, we, according to our
records, there is about 1, 100 relays that

968
01:13:02,437 --> 01:13:07,487
are up and running and responsive and, you
know, are participating in the network.

969
01:13:07,787 --> 01:13:12,157
So when a new user gets onboarded
onto Primal, we make sure that

970
01:13:12,157 --> 01:13:14,647
we, uh, include the Primal relay.

971
01:13:15,082 --> 01:13:20,032
Uh, the purple pages relay,
which, uh, kind of stores Nostr

972
01:13:20,142 --> 01:13:21,982
profiles only, doesn't store data.

973
01:13:22,625 --> 01:13:28,585
and then we take a relatively
random sampling of the, uh, the

974
01:13:28,595 --> 01:13:33,545
remaining, uh, uh, relays and kind
of, Pick like a top 10 among those.

975
01:13:34,255 --> 01:13:39,015
So we are already in the process of
spreading new users out among many relays.

976
01:13:39,960 --> 01:13:44,880
So that's one way that
the network will scale.

977
01:13:45,420 --> 01:13:51,410
Another way is, and by the way, these
are complementary, is what we're doing

978
01:13:51,410 --> 01:13:54,290
with actually with caching at Primal.

979
01:13:54,630 --> 01:14:00,180
We believe that, uh, Having these
caching instances that are able to

980
01:14:00,190 --> 01:14:05,455
have, highly available copies of
latest content that's most commonly

981
01:14:05,455 --> 01:14:10,165
being requested in a way that you
provide, like, very quick response

982
01:14:10,165 --> 01:14:12,385
times without overburdening the relays.

983
01:14:12,943 --> 01:14:14,945
I think that's a part of the solution too.

984
01:14:15,355 --> 01:14:17,575
Uh, we are running a caching service.

985
01:14:17,575 --> 01:14:20,695
There are a few other teams that
are, uh, starting to do this.

986
01:14:21,115 --> 01:14:27,465
Uh, so I actually am quite optimistic
about no's ability to scale.

987
01:14:27,465 --> 01:14:31,125
There's nothing architect
architecturally that's in, in our way.

988
01:14:31,545 --> 01:14:37,545
Uh, it's just a network will react to
events that happen and adjust accordingly.

989
01:14:37,545 --> 01:14:39,020
And we do have the tools to do that.

990
01:14:39,819 --> 01:14:40,209
Okay.

991
01:14:40,209 --> 01:14:40,549
Yeah.

992
01:14:40,579 --> 01:14:44,939
So I, I guess the, the main thing
there, the, the follow on is, is what

993
01:14:44,939 --> 01:14:50,009
do you see as the outlook for Nostr
over the next, say three to five years?

994
01:14:50,139 --> 01:14:54,574
What's Predictions for what's
going to happen in the ecosystem.

995
01:14:55,456 --> 01:15:00,536
I think Nostr will eventually consume
everything, like, uh, everything,

996
01:15:00,566 --> 01:15:06,626
every app that you use today that
has a social graph, which is a

997
01:15:06,626 --> 01:15:11,436
lot of web apps, everything gets
consumed by Nostr eventually.

998
01:15:12,166 --> 01:15:15,356
It will take, it's just that it will
take more than three to five years.

999
01:15:15,496 --> 01:15:20,686
I think we're talking about like a bigger,
uh, kind of timeline than that, uh, could

1000
01:15:20,686 --> 01:15:23,056
be maybe 10 years or more over time.

1001
01:15:23,683 --> 01:15:31,858
just, uh, The dynamics of the network
are such that any new app developer, uh,

1002
01:15:31,858 --> 01:15:38,818
that's building on Nostr will do their own
efforts to grow their user base, and by

1003
01:15:38,818 --> 01:15:44,701
doing so will grow Nostr for everyone, and
when you play that out over time, Kind of

1004
01:15:44,701 --> 01:15:49,021
the openness of the network is ultimately
the killer feature because you end up with

1005
01:15:49,021 --> 01:15:54,391
a massive ecosystem, ecosystem of apps
that are, that are oral interoperable.

1006
01:15:55,126 --> 01:15:58,466
I'm bullish on this pro,
probably not surprisingly.

1007
01:15:59,307 --> 01:16:05,687
Okay, I think I have a final question
from us to you, and that is, what, so

1008
01:16:05,687 --> 01:16:10,067
what happens first, hyperbitcoinization
or hypernostrification?

1009
01:16:11,027 --> 01:16:14,927
Do we want to define those two a
little bit more like, so is hyper

1010
01:16:15,287 --> 01:16:19,037
ization the moment when we start
using Bitcoin as the unit of account?

1011
01:16:19,317 --> 01:16:24,207
uh, this is a fantastic response,
because, uh, this is a trick question,

1012
01:16:24,657 --> 01:16:29,457
since, uh, I don't believe there's
an end point to either of the two.

1013
01:16:29,987 --> 01:16:34,317
First of all, hyperbitcoinization
and hypernostrification are personal

1014
01:16:34,317 --> 01:16:39,277
things that happen to you, and And
there can always be more people.

1015
01:16:39,407 --> 01:16:43,137
There can always be more
economic activity among humans.

1016
01:16:43,617 --> 01:16:45,497
There can always be more speech.

1017
01:16:45,997 --> 01:16:51,387
So I think these are ever growing
phenomena that don't end anytime soon.

1018
01:16:52,157 --> 01:16:58,127
And that's the most optimistic
outlook for humanity ever, maybe.

1019
01:16:59,084 --> 01:16:59,924
I agree with that.

1020
01:17:00,474 --> 01:17:02,574
And I would just add one more thing.

1021
01:17:02,754 --> 01:17:03,354
Um.

1022
01:17:03,989 --> 01:17:11,269
In the presence of unstoppable
money and unstoppable speech, it's

1023
01:17:11,269 --> 01:17:13,479
impossible for any tyranny to survive.

1024
01:17:14,029 --> 01:17:17,449
We need both of these things,
but when we have them, and when

1025
01:17:17,459 --> 01:17:21,209
they're kind of deployed widely
enough, it will be impossible for

1026
01:17:21,209 --> 01:17:23,579
any tyrannic regime to survive.

1027
01:17:23,589 --> 01:17:24,499
They just can't.

1028
01:17:24,839 --> 01:17:26,109
It's like kryptonite.

1029
01:17:26,434 --> 01:17:27,544
Or any tyranny.

1030
01:17:28,221 --> 01:17:29,141
It's fantastic.

1031
01:17:29,421 --> 01:17:33,401
So in the long run, it's the
end of inflation and the end

1032
01:17:33,411 --> 01:17:36,361
of any cohesive measures.

1033
01:17:36,401 --> 01:17:37,781
So it's the end of taxes too.

1034
01:17:38,101 --> 01:17:38,701
I guess.

1035
01:17:40,501 --> 01:17:41,641
Suck on that, governments.

1036
01:17:41,811 --> 01:17:45,841
Anything else you want to bring up,
Milian, before we wrap this thing up?

1037
01:17:46,384 --> 01:17:48,024
No, I think this was a great conversation.

1038
01:17:48,024 --> 01:17:49,924
Thank you very much for having me, guys.

1039
01:17:50,164 --> 01:17:54,904
And, uh, I guess the final thing I would
bring up is just, uh, if you haven't

1040
01:17:54,924 --> 01:17:59,684
tried Nostr lately, Go ahead, there
are a number of great app, Nostr apps

1041
01:17:59,684 --> 01:18:04,174
and services that you can try, uh, come
join us, uh, we're building the future

1042
01:18:04,174 --> 01:18:06,254
there, and it's actually quite fun.

1043
01:18:06,841 --> 01:18:07,221
Yeah.

1044
01:18:07,421 --> 01:18:12,541
And if you tried Nostr a year ago and
found it too clunky, try it again because

1045
01:18:12,541 --> 01:18:14,931
it gets exponentially better over time.

1046
01:18:14,931 --> 01:18:17,821
It's, it's really a fantastic
thing to be a part of.

1047
01:18:17,841 --> 01:18:21,551
So go ahead and hyper Nostrify yourselves.

1048
01:18:22,191 --> 01:18:24,951
And Milian, where, where
can people find you online?

1049
01:18:24,951 --> 01:18:27,831
I guess on Nostr, but anywhere else?

1050
01:18:28,571 --> 01:18:29,021
Primal.

1051
01:18:29,261 --> 01:18:33,571
net slash million, M I L L
J A N, that's my profile.

1052
01:18:34,037 --> 01:18:34,787
Fantastic.

1053
01:18:35,202 --> 01:18:39,392
I enjoy this a ton, and looking
forward to seeing you in real life

1054
01:18:39,392 --> 01:18:44,112
again, and online, and looking forward
to increasing our Nostr presence.

1055
01:18:44,342 --> 01:18:50,092
So thanks a lot for this, this was very
informative and very, very enjoyable.

1056
01:18:50,627 --> 01:18:54,947
Thank you guys, let's fucking
go, and, uh, have a good one.

1057
01:18:55,551 --> 01:18:57,241
LFG, perfect sign off.

1058
01:18:57,341 --> 01:19:00,231
Milian, thank you so much
and thank you for listening.

1059
01:19:00,231 --> 01:19:01,721
This has been the Freedom Footprint Show.