June 27, 2024

Martti Malmi - From Second Bitcoin Dev to Early Nostr Contributor - FFS #115

Martti Malmi - From Second Bitcoin Dev to Early Nostr Contributor - FFS #115
The player is loading ...
The Bitcoin Infinity Show

Martti Malmi is the second Bitcoin developer ever, working with Satoshi himself from 2009 to 2011. Now he's working on Nostr, building the protocol into the decentralization of everything! Filmed in person during BTC Prague 2024! 

Highlights:
🔹Martti Malmi's emails with Satoshi have been used to take down Faketoshi in the recent COPA trial
🔹Martti bought an apartment near Helsinki by selling 10000 Bitcoin
🔹Bitcoin solves decentralized money; Nostr solves decentralized everything
🔹Finland may have been uniquely positioned for Bitcoin adoption in the early days as a result of the Nokia tech boom
🔹Martti is working on Iris.to, a Nostr client and related Nostr projects
🔹Stay tuned for Martti at future Satoshi Rockamoto events! 

Connect with Martti: 
https://iris.to/sirius

Connect with Us:
https://www.freedomfootprintshow.com/
https://twitter.com/FootprintShow
https://primal.net/freedom
https://twitter.com/knutsvanholm
https://primal.net/knut
https://twitter.com/lukedewolf
https://primal.net/luke

JOIN US IN RIGA!

We're launching Bitcoin: The Inverse of Clown World, on Infinity Day, and we'll be in Riga for the launch party! Join us for the whole Riga Bitcoin Week! Use code FREEDOM for a discount! 
https://baltichoneybadger.com/

Thanks to our sponsors - check out there websites for info:

BitBox: https://bitbox.swiss/freedom

Bitcoin Adviser: https://content.thebitcoinadviser.com/freedom

Support the Show:
If you value what we do here at the Freedom Footprint Show, consider sending us some value back. You can send us a boost or stream us some sats on Fountain. Check out https://www.fountain.fm/
You can support us directly with Bitcoin on Geyser Fund: https://geyser.fund/project/freedom/

The Freedom Footprint Show is a Bitcoin podcast hosted by Knut Svanholm and Luke de Wolf.

In each episode, we explore everything from deep philosophy to practical tools to emit freedom dioxide to expand your freedom footprint. This isn't a show for bitcoin news or analysis - we dig into the deep topics that are important to us and to our guests. Join us if you want to go deeper down the rabbit hole of Bitcoin and related freedom-go-up technologies and ideas!

The Freedom Footprint Show is a Bitcoin podcast hosted by Knut Svanholm and Luke de Wolf.

In each episode, we explore everything from deep philosophy to practical tools to emit freedom dioxide to expand your freedom footprint!

Chapters

00:00 - Welcoming Martti Malmi

01:32 - Martti's Background, and Contact with Satoshi

08:47 - Buying an Apartment With Bitcoin

10:57 - Early Bitcoin History

12:33 - Bitcoin Today

15:30 - Discovering Bitcoin

22:00 - Decentralized Social Networks

24:08 - Nostr

28:18 - The Pirate Bay

29:32 - Decentralized Toolkit

32:33 - COPA Trial, Anonymity

37:55 - Bitcoin Revealing Truth

40:20 - Bitcoin in Finland

48:40 - Martti's Current Projects

50:20 - Centralization and Decentralization

59:50 - Breaking Nostr

01:04:40 - Nostr and Bitcoin

01:06:45 - Nostr Algorithms

01:09:45 - Competition

01:12:20 - Wrapping Up

Transcript
1
00:00:00,306 --> 00:00:02,726
All right, Martti, thank
you for joining us.

2
00:00:02,726 --> 00:00:04,166
Welcome to the Freedom Footprint Show.

3
00:00:04,686 --> 00:00:05,476
Thanks for having me.

4
00:00:06,065 --> 00:00:09,295
Yeah, Marty is a, for those
of you that don't know, Marty

5
00:00:09,305 --> 00:00:10,985
is a true legend in the space.

6
00:00:11,015 --> 00:00:15,955
Uh, you had contact with Satoshi
himself back in the day, did you?

7
00:00:16,035 --> 00:00:16,595
Did you not?

8
00:00:16,725 --> 00:00:16,995
Yeah.

9
00:00:17,735 --> 00:00:19,925
On the BitcoinTalk forums, I guess.

10
00:00:20,735 --> 00:00:21,245
Yeah.

11
00:00:22,115 --> 00:00:24,225
Actually email before that.

12
00:00:24,235 --> 00:00:25,315
Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah.

13
00:00:25,315 --> 00:00:30,205
So there's, uh, and you re quite recently,
like a couple of months back, released,

14
00:00:30,205 --> 00:00:36,325
uh, a couple of, uh, email, um, back and
forths that hadn't been released before.

15
00:00:36,835 --> 00:00:37,245
Yes.

16
00:00:37,395 --> 00:00:40,455
Uh, so what's the story
that, why did you do that?

17
00:00:40,977 --> 00:00:41,317
Yeah.

18
00:00:41,317 --> 00:00:46,577
So I was asked to be a witness
in the Craig Wright trial, Wright

19
00:00:46,587 --> 00:00:48,657
versus Copa trial in the UK.

20
00:00:48,717 --> 00:00:48,837
Mm-Hmm,

21
00:00:49,527 --> 00:00:53,527
So I shared my emails for that one.

22
00:00:53,807 --> 00:00:58,047
I just didn't feel, I had been
asked to share them before,

23
00:00:58,047 --> 00:00:59,557
but I didn't feel comfortable.

24
00:01:00,192 --> 00:01:03,972
Like sharing private correspondence,
but this seemed like a worthy cause.

25
00:01:04,577 --> 00:01:04,907
Okay.

26
00:01:05,207 --> 00:01:08,867
And, and what was the, the,
what was like the TLDR on the

27
00:01:09,017 --> 00:01:10,667
information that came out there?

28
00:01:10,667 --> 00:01:10,937
That

29
00:01:11,472 --> 00:01:14,682
Maybe, I'm not sure if I'm the
best person to answer that because

30
00:01:14,722 --> 00:01:17,922
it's more interesting what other
people get out of it because it's

31
00:01:17,922 --> 00:01:19,372
been on my mind all the time.

32
00:01:19,372 --> 00:01:23,642
So maybe others have
made better like rehashes

33
00:01:23,715 --> 00:01:24,392
of that all.

34
00:01:24,407 --> 00:01:26,957
maybe we should go all the way
back to the, the beginning.

35
00:01:26,987 --> 00:01:27,827
how did the,

36
00:01:27,857 --> 00:01:30,647
how did the contact start and,
and maybe just a little bit

37
00:01:30,647 --> 00:01:32,357
about your, your background.

38
00:01:32,682 --> 00:01:37,072
Yeah, so in 2009, I was a
computer science student at

39
00:01:37,072 --> 00:01:39,172
Helsinki University of Technology.

40
00:01:39,912 --> 00:01:42,992
Um, but I, I didn't waste
time studying too much.

41
00:01:43,502 --> 00:01:45,842
Um, so I had a lot of free time.

42
00:01:46,847 --> 00:01:51,607
To think about the world and everything,
um, I'm quite passionate about liberty,

43
00:01:51,767 --> 00:01:57,804
like many of us Bitcoiners, but I
wasn't inspired by politics at all,

44
00:01:58,384 --> 00:02:02,444
instead I was inspired by making
a difference through technology.

45
00:02:03,750 --> 00:02:07,280
without asking the boomers for
permission, most of people are not

46
00:02:07,280 --> 00:02:11,880
libertarians and we will not be able
to convince them to vote libertarian.

47
00:02:12,950 --> 00:02:17,946
So, I was thinking what would be the
most impactful thing you could change,

48
00:02:17,996 --> 00:02:20,906
and I figured it would be money,
because everything runs on money.

49
00:02:21,481 --> 00:02:25,881
And if you give government and central
banks control over our money, they

50
00:02:25,881 --> 00:02:28,191
have too much control over our lives.

51
00:02:28,921 --> 00:02:31,431
So, I went looking for alternatives.

52
00:02:32,081 --> 00:02:38,591
There had been alternative monies like e
gold and pekunix and something like that.

53
00:02:39,371 --> 00:02:42,951
Liberty dollar was maybe a
few years later, I'm not sure.

54
00:02:43,951 --> 00:02:46,061
But they were all centralized in some way.

55
00:02:46,891 --> 00:02:49,981
But then I was googling around
for something like peer to peer

56
00:02:49,981 --> 00:02:52,441
currency, and Bitcoin came up.

57
00:02:52,921 --> 00:02:54,281
It had just been released.

58
00:02:54,491 --> 00:02:59,591
It was April 2009 when I found it,
and it had been released just earlier.

59
00:03:00,221 --> 00:03:03,861
I took some time to read the
white paper and think about it,

60
00:03:03,881 --> 00:03:06,981
and I wrote about it on Twitter.

61
00:03:07,151 --> 00:03:09,331
Some forums, antistate.

62
00:03:09,371 --> 00:03:12,551
com and free domain radio
forums asking what they think.

63
00:03:13,627 --> 00:03:17,027
Satoshi later found those
and joined the threads.

64
00:03:17,547 --> 00:03:19,607
Um, then I sent email to Satoshi.

65
00:03:20,723 --> 00:03:21,773
That's how it started.

66
00:03:22,278 --> 00:03:25,708
Okay, so, yeah, so what's the
first email you sent to Satoshi?

67
00:03:25,868 --> 00:03:28,028
What was in that and
what's the reply you got?

68
00:03:29,010 --> 00:03:33,820
Uh, I was mentioning, I started
those, those threads on those forums

69
00:03:34,740 --> 00:03:39,230
and I was saying, um, I want to help
Bitcoin if there's something I can do.

70
00:03:39,980 --> 00:03:44,930
And, uh, he, he, uh, asked
me to do some writing.

71
00:03:45,730 --> 00:03:50,060
He said like, there's not much
that's easy to do on the coding side.

72
00:03:50,810 --> 00:03:52,710
I was a junior developer at the time.

73
00:03:54,250 --> 00:03:58,900
So I helped him first writing
and I started writing an FAQ.

74
00:03:59,690 --> 00:04:04,273
He sent me some, some, uh,
replies he had, sent to some

75
00:04:04,273 --> 00:04:06,543
people to help me with the FAQ.

76
00:04:06,603 --> 00:04:08,073
It's quite interesting to read.

77
00:04:08,931 --> 00:04:12,541
and did you ever have any, uh, of
these other things before Bitcoin?

78
00:04:12,791 --> 00:04:17,391
Like, did you ever own any
Liberty dollars or e cash or Egold

79
00:04:17,391 --> 00:04:18,831
or whatever they were called.

80
00:04:19,216 --> 00:04:19,656
Mmm.

81
00:04:19,966 --> 00:04:23,746
I remember I, I, was about to buy.

82
00:04:24,501 --> 00:04:25,871
Pecunix at some point.

83
00:04:25,931 --> 00:04:30,301
I'm not sure if it was before
or after Bitcoin, but the

84
00:04:30,301 --> 00:04:31,801
whole process was so shady.

85
00:04:31,801 --> 00:04:36,661
You were supposed to wire money to
Hong Kong and something like that.

86
00:04:37,151 --> 00:04:39,191
So I just canceled it.

87
00:04:39,909 --> 00:04:40,269
All right.

88
00:04:40,289 --> 00:04:46,018
And, and then, after the FAQ phase, like,
how did you continue working on Bitcoin?

89
00:04:46,028 --> 00:04:46,538
Like what,

90
00:04:46,848 --> 00:04:47,118
Yeah.

91
00:04:47,118 --> 00:04:50,528
So he also gave me access to bitcoin.

92
00:04:50,568 --> 00:04:51,378
sourceforge.

93
00:04:51,628 --> 00:04:52,068
net.

94
00:04:52,888 --> 00:04:57,450
And eventually, I don't recall
the exact, uh, order of.

95
00:04:57,895 --> 00:05:01,755
Events, but eventually I
also was managing bitcoin.

96
00:05:01,765 --> 00:05:03,515
org and the site over there.

97
00:05:03,555 --> 00:05:08,345
We made experiments with different
forum software, very interesting,

98
00:05:08,665 --> 00:05:12,525
technical, like configuration
discussions you can read in the emails.

99
00:05:13,723 --> 00:05:17,963
And we settled on simple
machines, forum software.

100
00:05:18,033 --> 00:05:23,568
And Satoshi was even himself doing
some, some PHP configurations

101
00:05:23,568 --> 00:05:27,038
like custom captcha, so spam bots
would not find their way there.

102
00:05:28,358 --> 00:05:31,668
what's your, what's your
like feeling towards Satoshi?

103
00:05:31,688 --> 00:05:33,868
Like what was he like in your mind?

104
00:05:33,888 --> 00:05:35,678
Like, what, what is this person?

105
00:05:35,718 --> 00:05:38,228
Like, do you have a vision in your

106
00:05:38,478 --> 00:05:38,728
Yeah.

107
00:05:38,948 --> 00:05:43,038
Well, first I thought he's Japanese
because of the name and on some

108
00:05:43,708 --> 00:05:50,058
social profile, he mentions he's a
man from Japan, but I had my doubts

109
00:05:50,178 --> 00:05:52,198
because his English was so perfect

110
00:05:53,048 --> 00:05:54,738
and that's not usually the case, maybe.

111
00:05:55,725 --> 00:06:04,995
Well, when Dorian Nakamoto surfaced
or was doxxed, I was like, this is

112
00:06:04,995 --> 00:06:07,155
how I imagined Satoshi to look like.

113
00:06:07,155 --> 00:06:10,225
I'm not sure if that's actually,
if I actually did, or if

114
00:06:10,365 --> 00:06:11,585
it's like after the fact.

115
00:06:14,110 --> 00:06:16,890
No, no, maybe I think
of something like that.

116
00:06:17,665 --> 00:06:18,045
All right.

117
00:06:18,755 --> 00:06:22,445
And do you think it's a single
person or maybe a group of people?

118
00:06:22,860 --> 00:06:26,600
that's the impression you get
if you read our correspondence.

119
00:06:26,855 --> 00:06:27,905
That it's a single person.

120
00:06:28,400 --> 00:06:33,800
Yeah, I think, uh, many other, many
others have also, um, come to the

121
00:06:33,940 --> 00:06:36,040
conclusion from the correspondence.

122
00:06:36,395 --> 00:06:36,795
All right.

123
00:06:37,505 --> 00:06:40,015
But yeah, that's what I always thought.

124
00:06:41,003 --> 00:06:45,343
Also, the theory is that Satoshi's
CIA or whatever, I think, are pretty

125
00:06:45,343 --> 00:06:47,623
much debunked by our correspondents.

126
00:06:48,053 --> 00:06:49,883
Unless they're like playing 4D chess.

127
00:06:50,043 --> 00:06:50,333
Yeah.

128
00:06:50,363 --> 00:06:55,793
Do you have a, like a, a candidate you
can disclose or would you rather not?

129
00:06:56,473 --> 00:06:59,623
I mean, I don't have any secret insights.

130
00:06:59,623 --> 00:07:04,073
Sabo is an interesting, like,
candidate and everything.

131
00:07:04,123 --> 00:07:04,853
I don't really know.

132
00:07:04,993 --> 00:07:05,293
Yeah.

133
00:07:05,393 --> 00:07:09,253
Even, even if you would have answered
here, we would have cut it out probably.

134
00:07:11,043 --> 00:07:14,823
No, it is Knut's, right, because,
because I, I, I think this has been

135
00:07:14,828 --> 00:07:19,023
coming up a, a, a lot in the space
is the, the idea of anonymity or

136
00:07:19,028 --> 00:07:23,733
pseudonymity and how important it
is to maintain that and let people.

137
00:07:24,068 --> 00:07:29,648
Maintain that, like how danger dangerous
it is for people who are developing

138
00:07:29,648 --> 00:07:33,278
in the space, but for whatever reason
want to stay private and, and then

139
00:07:33,278 --> 00:07:35,588
people getting doxed accidentally.

140
00:07:35,593 --> 00:07:36,638
So yeah.

141
00:07:36,638 --> 00:07:40,298
What, what do you think should
satoshi remain anonymous?

142
00:07:40,328 --> 00:07:41,528
Uh, pseudonym.

143
00:07:41,733 --> 00:07:43,643
It's more interesting if he's unknown.

144
00:07:44,017 --> 00:07:45,637
Yeah, absolutely.

145
00:07:45,787 --> 00:07:52,047
Uh, so we wrote a bit about this in the
book about the, because there's a part,

146
00:07:52,157 --> 00:07:58,857
uh, there's a, uh, one part of the Bitcoin
community who wants to, uh, like that

147
00:07:58,867 --> 00:08:03,207
sees Satoshi as this messianic figure
and wants to put him on a pedestal and

148
00:08:03,207 --> 00:08:08,127
make him to this superhero, which is
very understandable because, because of

149
00:08:08,127 --> 00:08:16,407
the, Supposed, uh, act of martyrdom that
he did, like, just disappearing and not

150
00:08:16,467 --> 00:08:19,707
taking the opportunity to become the
richest man in the world, it was just,

151
00:08:19,712 --> 00:08:21,362
it's a biblical story.

152
00:08:21,947 --> 00:08:28,697
so, so, but I see a danger in, in, in,
like, hero fying him too much, though,

153
00:08:29,127 --> 00:08:34,937
because that creates, creates like a,
a, a, it makes us more into a cult,

154
00:08:35,212 --> 00:08:35,932
Yeah, that's true.

155
00:08:36,222 --> 00:08:37,742
This is what Jesus would say.

156
00:08:38,127 --> 00:08:38,587
okay.

157
00:08:39,742 --> 00:08:40,312
Yeah.

158
00:08:40,992 --> 00:08:41,382
Yeah.

159
00:08:42,363 --> 00:08:43,823
Is it what Craig would say?

160
00:08:44,828 --> 00:08:45,208
Yeah.

161
00:08:45,938 --> 00:08:46,188
Yeah, I

162
00:08:46,213 --> 00:08:46,823
Probably not.

163
00:08:46,938 --> 00:08:47,278
yeah.

164
00:08:48,032 --> 00:08:51,642
Anyway, so there's, there's, there's
a lot, there's a bunch of more

165
00:08:51,862 --> 00:08:53,322
Bitcoin history attached to you.

166
00:08:53,342 --> 00:08:59,442
Like, uh, uh, we have a Bitcoin pizza day,
for instance, where, where I, um, Laszlo

167
00:08:59,442 --> 00:09:02,202
bought two pizzas for 10, 000 Bitcoin.

168
00:09:02,202 --> 00:09:07,702
And you did a similar thing just, uh, like
a year later, or maybe two years later.

169
00:09:07,737 --> 00:09:08,077
Yeah.

170
00:09:08,097 --> 00:09:12,297
And I was there congratulating
Laszlo on the next post after him.

171
00:09:12,417 --> 00:09:13,047
I was there.

172
00:09:13,707 --> 00:09:15,157
Um, yeah.

173
00:09:15,257 --> 00:09:21,807
So I, in 2011, I sold over 10, 000 BTC.

174
00:09:21,807 --> 00:09:24,067
It was a bit over half of what I had.

175
00:09:24,097 --> 00:09:26,877
So maybe 20, 000 left.

176
00:09:27,367 --> 00:09:31,187
So I sold a bit over half of it
when the exchange rate peaked.

177
00:09:31,732 --> 00:09:34,842
around 15 to 30 dollars that year.

178
00:09:37,072 --> 00:09:42,582
So, yeah, so I bought an apartment near
Helsinki, in London, studio apartment.

179
00:09:43,692 --> 00:09:46,902
Pretty nice, but today you
would buy the whole district.

180
00:09:47,242 --> 00:09:48,772
Yeah, you could buy
Helsinki with the money.

181
00:09:48,782 --> 00:09:51,352
Like in 10 years from now, you
can probably buy Finland with

182
00:09:54,342 --> 00:09:54,932
Who knows?

183
00:09:55,612 --> 00:09:59,592
yes, as I always say, at least
I got more than two pizzas.

184
00:10:00,222 --> 00:10:01,282
Do you regret that?

185
00:10:01,292 --> 00:10:02,572
Or is that like, uh,

186
00:10:03,032 --> 00:10:03,962
I have a good story.

187
00:10:04,242 --> 00:10:04,732
yeah, yeah,

188
00:10:05,182 --> 00:10:10,417
Of course would be Um, fun to be, be a
billionaire or something, but, uh, that

189
00:10:10,417 --> 00:10:16,417
was not the point when we started working
on Bitcoin and I, I can't, um, it's not

190
00:10:16,417 --> 00:10:18,397
like I've lost anything on this journey.

191
00:10:18,397 --> 00:10:19,507
Quite that contrarian.

192
00:10:19,582 --> 00:10:22,622
yeah, yeah, that's the
right attitude, I guess.

193
00:10:22,652 --> 00:10:28,065
I, I, I mean, Yeah, it's such a
strange phenomenon because like

194
00:10:28,185 --> 00:10:36,435
sooner or later, uh, you get Helsinki
apartment Bitcoin parity where it's

195
00:10:36,435 --> 00:10:38,125
one to one and that's pretty close.

196
00:10:38,125 --> 00:10:42,285
It's like, we were talking about this
just before, it's like four Bitcoins

197
00:10:42,295 --> 00:10:43,785
for the same apartments today, right?

198
00:10:44,408 --> 00:10:44,968
So what's that?

199
00:10:44,978 --> 00:10:48,248
A 2, 500 X price increase?

200
00:10:48,493 --> 00:10:48,763
Yeah.

201
00:10:50,248 --> 00:10:50,558
Yeah.

202
00:10:50,638 --> 00:10:54,788
And, uh, Yeah, number go up,
technology persists, so it can

203
00:10:54,788 --> 00:10:56,038
happen again and again and again.

204
00:10:56,603 --> 00:10:56,843
Yeah.

205
00:10:58,213 --> 00:11:00,793
So, so a little, a little more
about the, the early days.

206
00:11:00,793 --> 00:11:04,603
Like what, what, what else did you
get up to then, and, and how long

207
00:11:04,603 --> 00:11:09,103
were, were you really involved in
the Bitcoin development community?

208
00:11:09,743 --> 00:11:14,873
Uh, I was like really active
from 2009 to maybe 2010.

209
00:11:16,183 --> 00:11:17,413
2009, I was.

210
00:11:17,888 --> 00:11:21,078
Making some, some contributions
to the Bitcoin software.

211
00:11:21,118 --> 00:11:28,358
I think I made my last push to the
repository in 2010 early, but in,

212
00:11:29,068 --> 00:11:32,108
I needed a real job and Bitcoin
was not a real job at that time.

213
00:11:32,638 --> 00:11:34,698
So I got my first real job in 2010.

214
00:11:35,518 --> 00:11:38,188
So from then on, I had
less time to contribute.

215
00:11:39,183 --> 00:11:39,843
To beat Bitcoin.

216
00:11:41,270 --> 00:11:46,680
I am, I think I managed the
forums for a few more years.

217
00:11:46,710 --> 00:11:52,640
Um, usually I say from 2009
to 2011 was my contribution.

218
00:11:53,985 --> 00:11:56,075
What was the last contribution?

219
00:11:56,779 --> 00:12:00,399
mostly with the forums, but uh, I also.

220
00:12:00,724 --> 00:12:02,724
I had bitcoinexchange.

221
00:12:02,784 --> 00:12:09,974
com for some while, 2010, um, the
first like semi automated, uh,

222
00:12:10,584 --> 00:12:17,074
Bitcoin exchange site, uh, where you
could buy and sell Bitcoins from me.

223
00:12:17,644 --> 00:12:20,464
And it would give you a
quote automatically pricing.

224
00:12:20,954 --> 00:12:23,684
But I lost like 30, 000 Bitcoins.

225
00:12:23,684 --> 00:12:26,234
I wasn't running it like a
business, just wanted to.

226
00:12:26,504 --> 00:12:27,824
Bitcoin faucet.

227
00:12:27,904 --> 00:12:34,464
That's at least six pizzas, like,
so, so, uh, uh, yeah, so, so what's

228
00:12:34,464 --> 00:12:36,214
your view on Bitcoin nowadays?

229
00:12:36,214 --> 00:12:39,404
Like, are you happy with how,
how the project has evolved

230
00:12:39,404 --> 00:12:40,684
over the years and like,

231
00:12:40,829 --> 00:12:42,239
Yeah, yeah, I'm very happy.

232
00:12:43,919 --> 00:12:48,109
You walk around here in BTC
Prague, you see all the amazing

233
00:12:48,119 --> 00:12:51,709
things people are building and
walking in a mining container.

234
00:12:51,709 --> 00:12:56,489
Maybe that's something you wouldn't
have imagined back in 2009.

235
00:12:58,436 --> 00:13:02,696
Or when I first went to
like a professional mining

236
00:13:02,706 --> 00:13:04,891
operation in 2014, you know.

237
00:13:05,781 --> 00:13:07,101
Or yeah, 14.

238
00:13:07,491 --> 00:13:12,021
In Finland, um, some of the first
ASICs that my friends were bringing

239
00:13:12,021 --> 00:13:15,601
to Finland, they had an old steel
factory with like a 10 megawatt

240
00:13:15,601 --> 00:13:18,011
power line and full of these miners.

241
00:13:18,031 --> 00:13:19,251
And it was surreal.

242
00:13:20,291 --> 00:13:23,541
Bitcoin existed only in the virtual
space for me for such a long time.

243
00:13:24,021 --> 00:13:29,271
Now it's real and it's changing the world
and I'm, of course, they are, we are

244
00:13:29,271 --> 00:13:37,861
living, um, critical, interesting times,
with all the corporate Bitcoin stuff

245
00:13:37,931 --> 00:13:44,461
going on, but yeah, I've been following on
the sidelines, but I'm, I'm quite happy.

246
00:13:44,951 --> 00:13:47,861
do you see any, any
threats to the project?

247
00:13:48,331 --> 00:13:48,621
And

248
00:13:48,901 --> 00:13:48,968
I

249
00:13:49,021 --> 00:13:56,311
guess like the KYC versus non KYC
Bitcoin split seems like a risk.

250
00:13:56,716 --> 00:13:57,266
Yeah.

251
00:13:57,836 --> 00:14:00,286
Oh, what about, what about the spam?

252
00:14:00,296 --> 00:14:04,046
Do you have any opinions there about like
people putting other stuff on Bitcoin?

253
00:14:04,924 --> 00:14:06,994
I don't have a strong opinion.

254
00:14:07,444 --> 00:14:09,894
Um, it's a bit annoying, I guess.

255
00:14:11,040 --> 00:14:15,100
Feels unnecessary to me, but they're
paying transaction fees and Bitcoin

256
00:14:15,900 --> 00:14:20,330
is still working on a lightning
network is working and I'm, I'm

257
00:14:20,330 --> 00:14:22,220
using it a lot with Nostr these

258
00:14:22,526 --> 00:14:23,415
Yeah, yeah.

259
00:14:23,775 --> 00:14:28,985
Let's not segue to Nostr just yet,
but let's get there, of course.

260
00:14:29,385 --> 00:14:34,875
The original tone of the project back
in early days, how would you compare

261
00:14:34,875 --> 00:14:40,385
that to now, in terms of the difference
between how people were talking

262
00:14:40,385 --> 00:14:44,285
about it, thinking about it, acting
about it, and yeah, this day and age?

263
00:14:45,680 --> 00:14:51,550
It was a bit different in the very early
days when Bitcoin had no value, basically.

264
00:14:52,400 --> 00:14:56,070
Um, maybe I liked it more back then.

265
00:14:56,070 --> 00:15:06,930
It was only idealistic, um, and
maybe late 2010 or something when GPU

266
00:15:06,950 --> 00:15:08,540
mining started and like the 2010s.

267
00:15:08,540 --> 00:15:08,990
Thanks.

268
00:15:09,870 --> 00:15:14,740
We had an influx of people who were only
interested in mining and making money.

269
00:15:15,448 --> 00:15:17,698
Nothing wrong with that per se.

270
00:15:18,038 --> 00:15:20,628
It's like Bitcoin's
incentives are working.

271
00:15:21,138 --> 00:15:25,508
Non Bitcoiners are adopting
Bitcoin, which is a good thing,

272
00:15:26,088 --> 00:15:29,938
but the vibe changed a little bit.

273
00:15:30,668 --> 00:15:35,158
Well, so, so the original goals of
the, the project then back before

274
00:15:35,218 --> 00:15:39,738
it had a value that that's, it's
like the cypherpunk mentality, but

275
00:15:39,738 --> 00:15:41,128
you came at it from the money angle.

276
00:15:41,298 --> 00:15:42,168
Is that, is that right?

277
00:15:42,228 --> 00:15:44,598
Yeah, yeah, I was never
like an OG cypherpunk.

278
00:15:46,728 --> 00:15:50,858
But, but you were, you were convinced by
the, the project pretty quickly, right?

279
00:15:50,858 --> 00:15:54,248
That, that it was going to do,
do what, what were you thinking

280
00:15:54,248 --> 00:15:56,978
about, uh, before finding Bitcoin?

281
00:15:56,998 --> 00:16:01,168
Like the, what were you thinking
about the, the money system?

282
00:16:01,168 --> 00:16:05,418
Because I'm, I'm interested that,
that, You know, were, were you

283
00:16:05,418 --> 00:16:06,678
thinking about other people?

284
00:16:06,678 --> 00:16:10,428
What, whatever about the, the
problems with the, the money

285
00:16:10,428 --> 00:16:11,898
system already way back then.

286
00:16:11,898 --> 00:16:16,038
Because one angle about the cipher
punk stuff is that they weren't

287
00:16:16,038 --> 00:16:18,048
really thinking about solving money.

288
00:16:18,048 --> 00:16:20,568
They were thinking about solving payments.

289
00:16:21,588 --> 00:16:23,688
What, what is there, is
there any truth to that?

290
00:16:23,688 --> 00:16:26,628
What, what were you thinking about
that, that got you into the project?

291
00:16:26,763 --> 00:16:31,283
Yeah, well, it was both payments,
payments over the internet.

292
00:16:31,583 --> 00:16:36,323
You could send money as easily
as email with no middlemen, uh,

293
00:16:36,383 --> 00:16:38,273
but also about the money itself.

294
00:16:38,923 --> 00:16:44,403
I had, well, I was 20 years old at that
time, so I, I wasn't that wise yet, but I

295
00:16:44,403 --> 00:16:50,563
had looked into currency a little bit and
like, uh, silver and gold money standards.

296
00:16:51,395 --> 00:16:57,395
I think it wasn't really until like
2016, 17, when, uh, uh, especially

297
00:16:57,425 --> 00:17:02,885
Seyfriedin's book, uh, uh, popularized
it, but it wasn't until somewhere

298
00:17:02,885 --> 00:17:07,025
there that people started to take
this Austrian economics angle to its

299
00:17:07,025 --> 00:17:10,545
full extent and talk about sound money
and number go up and stuff like that.

300
00:17:11,150 --> 00:17:16,440
Yeah, was that angle present at all, uh,
back early days, even in your thinking,

301
00:17:16,440 --> 00:17:17,580
did you come across any of that?

302
00:17:18,110 --> 00:17:19,390
Uh, you mean sound money?

303
00:17:20,230 --> 00:17:21,060
Yeah, exactly.

304
00:17:21,190 --> 00:17:22,740
Yeah, of course, that's the whole point.

305
00:17:22,800 --> 00:17:23,390
The government

306
00:17:23,460 --> 00:17:23,880
Uh, yeah.

307
00:17:24,390 --> 00:17:31,980
Well, Hal was onto it, like Hal Tweeted,
uh, wrote, or not tweeted, but , um,

308
00:17:32,370 --> 00:17:36,210
he tweeted running Bitcoin, but he,
he, he hinted at Bitcoin going to,

309
00:17:36,750 --> 00:17:38,880
uh, a million dollars very early on.

310
00:17:38,880 --> 00:17:38,970
Right.

311
00:17:39,655 --> 00:17:39,965
Hmm.

312
00:17:40,205 --> 00:17:44,155
Yeah, I guess I like realized in
theory, this could have a lot of value.

313
00:17:44,215 --> 00:17:48,375
I didn't have a life experience to tell
me that good theories can become true.

314
00:17:48,435 --> 00:17:49,135
And who knows?

315
00:17:49,195 --> 00:17:50,795
Maybe most ideas.

316
00:17:52,205 --> 00:17:52,835
So, so what?

317
00:17:53,015 --> 00:17:54,695
Did you ever have a shit coining face?

318
00:17:55,045 --> 00:17:55,435
Yeah.

319
00:17:55,465 --> 00:17:55,775
Yeah.

320
00:17:55,975 --> 00:17:56,835
Unfortunately,

321
00:17:57,355 --> 00:17:57,765
uh, Not,

322
00:17:57,795 --> 00:17:58,005
not

323
00:17:58,005 --> 00:18:03,815
seriously, but like, well, I was,
um, in 2015, I think Goldman Sachs

324
00:18:03,825 --> 00:18:05,715
started pushing this, uh, meme.

325
00:18:05,745 --> 00:18:07,045
It's it's blockchain.

326
00:18:07,045 --> 00:18:07,715
It's not Bitcoin.

327
00:18:07,915 --> 00:18:08,745
Like they could not

328
00:18:08,785 --> 00:18:11,645
discredit the entire thing, but
they didn't like Bitcoin back then.

329
00:18:11,645 --> 00:18:11,855
Yeah.

330
00:18:12,105 --> 00:18:14,385
I never believed in it.

331
00:18:14,825 --> 00:18:17,695
There was this, all this
blockchain hype and I was like,

332
00:18:17,695 --> 00:18:19,535
it's the Emperor's new clothes.

333
00:18:20,545 --> 00:18:24,425
Um, I went to Satoshi
Roundtable a couple years ago.

334
00:18:24,475 --> 00:18:26,915
I guess that's when
shit coinery struck me.

335
00:18:26,915 --> 00:18:30,595
I thought it was, it's like,
everyone's doing this stuff.

336
00:18:31,005 --> 00:18:36,175
Um, not like seriously or scamming,
but, um, we, a couple of years ago,

337
00:18:36,175 --> 00:18:38,395
we had this social nouns project.

338
00:18:38,405 --> 00:18:39,735
So if you know, there's.

339
00:18:40,300 --> 00:18:45,590
A DAO called Nouns on Ethereum, so
every day they generate, the smart

340
00:18:45,630 --> 00:18:50,630
contract generates these random pixel
dude avatars on chain and auctions them.

341
00:18:51,000 --> 00:18:55,650
They were selling for crazy amounts,
like a hundred F and they had like

342
00:18:56,010 --> 00:18:57,840
$30 million in their treasury.

343
00:18:58,340 --> 00:19:02,330
And, um, the NFTs would
be shares of the DAO.

344
00:19:03,040 --> 00:19:05,350
So DAO kind of interesting idea.

345
00:19:05,800 --> 00:19:10,925
We forked, um, nouns and made like a
finished culture themed version of it.

346
00:19:11,385 --> 00:19:12,285
Was movements

347
00:19:12,800 --> 00:19:13,190
?
No.

348
00:19:13,195 --> 00:19:14,090
It's like,

349
00:19:15,770 --> 00:19:16,060
okay.

350
00:19:17,050 --> 00:19:17,340
Yeah.

351
00:19:17,410 --> 00:19:18,370
and everything.

352
00:19:18,520 --> 00:19:18,970
Um.

353
00:19:19,945 --> 00:19:25,545
So we ran that for a while with the
mission to fund, uh, decentralized

354
00:19:25,575 --> 00:19:27,645
social networking initiatives.

355
00:19:27,675 --> 00:19:32,195
It was like, I was about to, so I
had been working for decentralized

356
00:19:32,215 --> 00:19:33,435
social media for a while.

357
00:19:33,475 --> 00:19:40,835
I was about to quit because it wasn't
like, um, it wasn't gaining traction.

358
00:19:41,365 --> 00:19:43,115
So that was like the last effort.

359
00:19:43,705 --> 00:19:45,615
We ran the DAO for a while.

360
00:19:46,180 --> 00:19:49,340
But we didn't feel like continuing
it, so we shut it down and

361
00:19:49,340 --> 00:19:51,010
returned the funds to the buyers.

362
00:19:51,265 --> 00:19:55,525
So it wasn't decentralized or and
autonomous then if you could shut it

363
00:19:55,770 --> 00:19:56,040
No,

364
00:19:56,270 --> 00:19:56,610
because

365
00:19:56,610 --> 00:19:56,790
we

366
00:19:56,790 --> 00:20:00,780
had the majority of the
tokens, so we could vote

367
00:20:01,015 --> 00:20:01,855
Alright, alright.

368
00:20:01,945 --> 00:20:02,095
Yeah.

369
00:20:02,370 --> 00:20:03,250
return the funds.

370
00:20:04,650 --> 00:20:10,430
Well, so, so, okay, um, shitcoining
aside, and, I mean, that's the single

371
00:20:10,460 --> 00:20:16,920
most interestingly, at least, branded cool
project I've heard of, so that's funny.

372
00:20:17,150 --> 00:20:17,670
I'll give you

373
00:20:17,995 --> 00:20:19,015
Because of the costing cover.

374
00:20:19,040 --> 00:20:19,980
Because of Kostka and Korra.

375
00:20:19,980 --> 00:20:20,570
Yeah, Exactly.

376
00:22:00,720 --> 00:22:03,950
So, what gave you the idea about
decentralized social network?

377
00:22:03,990 --> 00:22:07,670
What was, yeah, the original
thought behind that?

378
00:22:08,485 --> 00:22:12,575
that's something that crossed my
mind pretty soon after Bitcoin.

379
00:22:12,575 --> 00:22:16,905
I was like, what would be the next most
important thing we should decentralize?

380
00:22:16,905 --> 00:22:21,755
And I thought it's, well, actually
first it wasn't even social media.

381
00:22:21,755 --> 00:22:24,875
It was like reputation and identity.

382
00:22:25,180 --> 00:22:31,360
That I was thinking about, uh, so I was
thinking we need an alternative, like,

383
00:22:31,360 --> 00:22:40,840
um, um, social force for good, like,
um, an alternative to government courts.

384
00:22:41,921 --> 00:22:48,091
so like, like we have this rating system,
some Uber and Airbnb and whatever,

385
00:22:49,051 --> 00:22:50,941
and sometimes they work pretty well.

386
00:22:51,191 --> 00:22:55,006
But I was thinking we should have
like a decentralized version of

387
00:22:55,006 --> 00:23:01,316
this, um, and also an alternative
to centralized identity like domain

388
00:23:01,326 --> 00:23:03,426
names or phone numbers or whatever.

389
00:23:04,718 --> 00:23:09,228
Yeah, and so, okay, this is
actually an interesting point here.

390
00:23:10,648 --> 00:23:14,828
Was doing this on or around Bitcoin
ever in the discussion or was this

391
00:23:14,838 --> 00:23:19,358
always through some other, you
know, Ethereum or whatever it is?

392
00:23:19,359 --> 00:23:19,533
Yeah.

393
00:23:19,798 --> 00:23:24,328
And no, I, I didn't ever think we
would need a blockchain for that.

394
00:23:24,883 --> 00:23:27,133
Okay, so, so yeah, I get this.

395
00:23:27,143 --> 00:23:30,043
So this is, this is an interesting,
interesting ideas, right?

396
00:23:30,043 --> 00:23:36,413
Because why, what's the, what's the
thought process about blockchain

397
00:23:36,413 --> 00:23:40,963
versus no blockchain or, or using,
using some kind of DAO versus not?

398
00:23:40,963 --> 00:23:42,513
What, what was your thought process there?

399
00:23:43,148 --> 00:23:47,268
Because, um, blockchain is necessary
to prevent the double spending problem.

400
00:23:47,318 --> 00:23:51,413
And if you need a global consensus,
but In a reputation system or in a

401
00:23:51,413 --> 00:23:56,443
social network, you don't actually
want an expensive and a slow, um,

402
00:23:56,493 --> 00:23:58,993
and low bandwidth global consensus.

403
00:23:59,923 --> 00:24:00,163
No.

404
00:24:00,163 --> 00:24:03,343
So cryptography is enough in this sense, I

405
00:24:03,623 --> 00:24:04,023
Yeah.

406
00:24:04,153 --> 00:24:04,523
just

407
00:24:04,523 --> 00:24:07,173
a public key based peer to peer system

408
00:24:07,353 --> 00:24:08,053
like, like

409
00:24:08,083 --> 00:24:08,813
Nostris now.

410
00:24:09,053 --> 00:24:09,283
Yeah.

411
00:24:09,313 --> 00:24:11,603
And you're, you're working
on Nostr now, right?

412
00:24:11,673 --> 00:24:14,153
Uh, working for Snort.

413
00:24:14,253 --> 00:24:14,893
Is that right?

414
00:24:15,557 --> 00:24:20,017
yeah, we joined, so I, I've been
working on my client named Iris

415
00:24:20,027 --> 00:24:21,617
for quite a while, but we joined

416
00:24:21,617 --> 00:24:23,467
forces with Snort, another client.

417
00:24:23,487 --> 00:24:23,677
Yeah.

418
00:24:23,677 --> 00:24:23,897
Yeah.

419
00:24:25,017 --> 00:24:28,117
Take us through the whole
thing, like, finding Nostr

420
00:24:28,147 --> 00:24:30,277
and realizing it was the one.

421
00:24:30,687 --> 00:24:32,597
Yeah, so.

422
00:24:33,502 --> 00:24:37,612
I started with, so from the
reputation thing, I eventually

423
00:24:37,652 --> 00:24:39,072
pivoted to social media.

424
00:24:39,142 --> 00:24:41,852
I realized it's a more
familiar concept to people.

425
00:24:41,902 --> 00:24:47,847
It's um, like, um, familiar concept
to follow someone instead of giving,

426
00:24:47,947 --> 00:24:50,227
uh, like trust ratings or something.

427
00:24:50,874 --> 00:24:56,338
It used to be called Identify My Identity
thing, then I came up with the name Iris,

428
00:24:56,338 --> 00:25:02,818
which means rainbow in ancient Greek and
kind of symbolizes the plurality of voices

429
00:25:02,818 --> 00:25:05,838
and diversity of humanity in a good way.

430
00:25:07,098 --> 00:25:11,518
And it's also the Greek goddess
of the rainbow and the messenger

431
00:25:11,518 --> 00:25:14,008
of gods, so it seemed fitting.

432
00:25:15,349 --> 00:25:21,560
In 2019, I think, when I had Iris, the
decentralized social network, it was

433
00:25:21,800 --> 00:25:26,840
not Nostr back then, it was another,
another decentralized system, very

434
00:25:26,840 --> 00:25:31,150
similar, public key based, and you would
synchronize stuff over web sockets.

435
00:25:32,168 --> 00:25:36,239
so 2022, it was not gaining traction.

436
00:25:36,369 --> 00:25:40,649
I was ready to abandon it,
but then the Nostr happened.

437
00:25:41,429 --> 00:25:47,399
I think that's when Jack Dorsey
joined Nostr in December 2022.

438
00:25:47,969 --> 00:25:51,329
And, uh, that's when it started booming.

439
00:25:51,339 --> 00:25:57,979
And, um, as it was so similar
to my system, it was easy to

440
00:25:57,979 --> 00:25:59,959
convert Iris into a Nostr app.

441
00:26:00,794 --> 00:26:05,534
So, I got a bit of a head start
with that and uh, many people

442
00:26:05,534 --> 00:26:07,714
were using Iris back in the day.

443
00:26:07,724 --> 00:26:10,354
So Iris is a browser based Nostro client.

444
00:26:10,514 --> 00:26:12,364
Very easy to start using.

445
00:26:14,184 --> 00:26:18,784
Yeah, and so, can you explain what is
a client and a little bit about the

446
00:26:18,804 --> 00:26:22,964
architecture of Nostr for those who
aren't familiar, like, why does it work?

447
00:26:23,589 --> 00:26:27,689
Yeah, so Nostris works because
it's really simple and it's very

448
00:26:27,689 --> 00:26:29,969
easy for developers to work with.

449
00:26:30,849 --> 00:26:33,179
So accounts are basically public keys.

450
00:26:33,589 --> 00:26:36,739
You don't need a service provider,
unlike email or something.

451
00:26:37,069 --> 00:26:38,159
It's, it's like Bitcoin.

452
00:26:38,169 --> 00:26:40,819
You just generate a public
key and that's your account.

453
00:26:41,869 --> 00:26:43,019
Permissionless system.

454
00:26:43,721 --> 00:26:43,931
Yeah.

455
00:26:43,931 --> 00:26:48,381
We had, uh, Miljan from Primal on
the show just a couple of weeks back.

456
00:26:48,761 --> 00:26:52,651
It was very interesting about, about,
uh, like the developments in Nostr.

457
00:26:52,941 --> 00:26:56,531
And there's also this Nostriga
thing happening in August.

458
00:26:57,026 --> 00:27:03,036
So, and we're doing a lot of stuff there,
uh, as, so, uh, there'll be a big event

459
00:27:03,296 --> 00:27:07,716
starting on Infinity Day and then the
rest of the week is all Nostr and Bitcoin.

460
00:27:07,786 --> 00:27:09,666
Uh, we're looking forward to that a lot.

461
00:27:10,166 --> 00:27:11,556
Uh, are you, are you coming to Riga?

462
00:27:11,557 --> 00:27:12,126
Yes.

463
00:27:12,126 --> 00:27:12,436
Yeah.

464
00:27:12,986 --> 00:27:14,146
It's just next doors, right?

465
00:27:14,306 --> 00:27:14,606
Yeah.

466
00:27:15,716 --> 00:27:16,026
Yeah.

467
00:27:16,046 --> 00:27:18,196
So, so, uh, yeah, you
can use code Freedom.

468
00:27:19,756 --> 00:27:21,346
for 10% off, I think.

469
00:27:21,796 --> 00:27:22,096
Yeah.

470
00:27:22,561 --> 00:27:23,201
Exactly.

471
00:27:23,551 --> 00:27:26,401
Yeah, so, so, okay, Nostr is simple.

472
00:27:26,701 --> 00:27:29,091
The relay systems is
sort of how it scales.

473
00:27:29,371 --> 00:27:29,691
Right?

474
00:27:30,001 --> 00:27:33,851
That, uh, individuals don't need to
connect to every other individual.

475
00:27:33,851 --> 00:27:37,651
They can go through this, this
relay system to get connected.

476
00:27:38,269 --> 00:27:38,616
Yeah.

477
00:27:38,886 --> 00:27:42,106
Although I would like to advance
the peer to peer side as well.

478
00:27:43,056 --> 00:27:45,646
Like, clients connecting
directly to each other.

479
00:27:46,286 --> 00:27:50,656
There's, relays are a bit
difficult, um, for scaling.

480
00:27:50,686 --> 00:27:53,526
I mean, like, they're expensive to host.

481
00:27:54,856 --> 00:27:59,386
There are some, like, paid relays,
but, um, it would be in some ways

482
00:27:59,386 --> 00:28:01,096
easier if you connect to your friends.

483
00:28:01,126 --> 00:28:05,016
Like, everyone's already paying
for storage on their phone and, uh,

484
00:28:05,056 --> 00:28:07,396
for their bandwidth with their ISP.

485
00:28:07,751 --> 00:28:10,526
I, I remember in the early days
of file sharing, there was a

486
00:28:10,526 --> 00:28:12,866
program called DC plus Plus.

487
00:28:12,871 --> 00:28:12,951
Yeah.

488
00:28:13,046 --> 00:28:13,546
I used it.

489
00:28:14,876 --> 00:28:16,976
That was, uh, it was before
Torrance were a thing,

490
00:28:17,136 --> 00:28:17,396
Yeah,

491
00:28:17,396 --> 00:28:17,616
that's

492
00:28:17,786 --> 00:28:18,266
great.

493
00:28:18,746 --> 00:28:23,176
But also Pirate Bay was one of
my inspirations with Bitcoin.

494
00:28:23,346 --> 00:28:25,206
Actually, when I had my BitcoinExchange.

495
00:28:25,476 --> 00:28:27,806
com, I used the layout of PirateBay.

496
00:28:27,866 --> 00:28:28,396
com as

497
00:28:28,756 --> 00:28:30,276
the template for my site.

498
00:28:30,316 --> 00:28:30,466
Yeah.

499
00:28:30,466 --> 00:28:33,286
I have a bit of, a bit of
history with Pyro Bay as well.

500
00:28:33,586 --> 00:28:36,671
Uh, I grew up in the same town
as one of the three founders.

501
00:28:37,636 --> 00:28:40,276
And I was friends with his older
brother, I think, because we

502
00:28:40,276 --> 00:28:41,976
were a couple of years older.

503
00:28:42,406 --> 00:28:47,236
And then we made a music video,
uh, like, uh, what can that

504
00:28:47,236 --> 00:28:48,216
have been, like 12 years?

505
00:28:48,436 --> 00:28:51,656
No, it's like 10 years ago
now, something like that.

506
00:28:52,056 --> 00:28:56,106
And, uh, uploaded it to, they had
something called the Promo Bay.

507
00:28:56,566 --> 00:28:58,066
So they promoted local bands.

508
00:28:58,066 --> 00:28:59,926
And all of a sudden, our video was on.

509
00:29:00,446 --> 00:29:07,456
on the front page of the Pirate Bay
and and the the views just kept kept

510
00:29:07,456 --> 00:29:10,806
rolling in so we got like a hundred
thousand views in three days or something

511
00:29:10,806 --> 00:29:15,736
and it's like my first experience
of something weird happening on the

512
00:29:15,736 --> 00:29:20,906
internet to me so like sitting there
pressing f5 and like holy shit this

513
00:29:20,906 --> 00:29:23,236
is going on as a exhilarating for sure

514
00:29:23,266 --> 00:29:26,706
At one point, like, half of the
internet traffic was BitTorrent.

515
00:29:27,386 --> 00:29:31,246
yeah yeah it's uh yeah super cool
and it's i mean it's still working

516
00:29:31,646 --> 00:29:31,916
Yeah.

517
00:29:32,562 --> 00:29:32,792
Yeah.

518
00:29:32,792 --> 00:29:37,312
And, and like, so, so, Bitcoin,
BitTorrent, Nostr, all of

519
00:29:37,312 --> 00:29:38,652
these decentralized things.

520
00:29:39,982 --> 00:29:40,952
Are we there now?

521
00:29:40,982 --> 00:29:47,222
Do we have the toolkit to be able
to get out from the centralized

522
00:29:47,672 --> 00:29:50,532
authorities and the centralized services?

523
00:29:51,092 --> 00:29:54,392
is, is is it there, even if it's
still early, the network effect

524
00:29:54,392 --> 00:29:58,242
hasn't really gotten there yet with
Nostr, for example, is, is, is there

525
00:29:58,242 --> 00:29:59,912
anything, is there anything else needed?

526
00:30:00,827 --> 00:30:06,077
Yeah, I think Bitcoin does a good
job with money and I think, maybe,

527
00:30:06,177 --> 00:30:08,527
I hope Nostr can do everything else.

528
00:30:09,757 --> 00:30:13,567
The public key based accounts and
the social graph that they form

529
00:30:13,877 --> 00:30:17,807
can be used for many kinds of
purposes, not just social media.

530
00:30:18,012 --> 00:30:21,092
Emilien was saying that it
basically solves the spam problem

531
00:30:21,142 --> 00:30:25,922
immediately by just taking the
accounts that other people follow.

532
00:30:25,922 --> 00:30:28,722
The spam accounts can't
get their own followers.

533
00:30:28,947 --> 00:30:34,652
Yeah, web of trust, web of trust was
like, One of my core ideas back in

534
00:30:34,862 --> 00:30:40,952
2013 14 when I started the identity
thing and I'm so glad it's catching on.

535
00:30:41,682 --> 00:30:42,572
Yeah, that's fantastic.

536
00:30:42,882 --> 00:30:47,702
Uh, back briefly to the Pirate Bay, did
you see the documentary they made about

537
00:30:47,702 --> 00:30:50,412
the trial against these three guys?

538
00:30:51,192 --> 00:30:51,942
Might have seen.

539
00:30:51,942 --> 00:30:52,567
Yeah.

540
00:30:53,102 --> 00:30:58,576
that was also like, for me, that's
like, uh, some kind of, uh, inflection

541
00:30:58,576 --> 00:30:59,946
point or whatever you may call it.

542
00:30:59,976 --> 00:31:07,166
Like, uh, uh, it, it really, uh, shone
a light on how corrupt the juridical

543
00:31:07,176 --> 00:31:11,826
system is and the international courts and
stuff, because these people weren't doing.

544
00:31:11,901 --> 00:31:15,211
They only hosted links.

545
00:31:15,241 --> 00:31:16,831
They didn't host anything, really.

546
00:31:17,121 --> 00:31:17,881
So it's just links.

547
00:31:17,891 --> 00:31:21,311
So they were, they were, Google
were just as guilty as they were

548
00:31:21,311 --> 00:31:23,011
because they linked to them.

549
00:31:23,111 --> 00:31:23,511
So,

550
00:31:23,636 --> 00:31:24,956
Like the U.

551
00:31:24,956 --> 00:31:25,136
S.

552
00:31:25,166 --> 00:31:27,326
media corporations are using the U.

553
00:31:27,326 --> 00:31:27,476
S.

554
00:31:27,476 --> 00:31:29,116
government to pressure Sweden.

555
00:31:29,271 --> 00:31:33,921
yeah, and there were so many really
weird things, like the police officer

556
00:31:33,921 --> 00:31:40,001
who, who, uh, who had the, uh, what's
it called, who knocked on their

557
00:31:40,001 --> 00:31:42,681
doors and, yeah, yeah, arrested them.

558
00:31:42,681 --> 00:31:46,801
But what's it called when you get,
I, I Um, the word, yeah, yeah, the

559
00:31:46,801 --> 00:31:53,691
search warrant, uh, to go in and
ransack the flat, uh, he, he got a job

560
00:31:53,691 --> 00:31:56,031
at some Hollywood studio afterwards.

561
00:31:56,581 --> 00:31:59,001
So he like moved out to
Sweden and got a job with like

562
00:31:59,001 --> 00:32:00,021
Warner Brothers or something.

563
00:32:00,866 --> 00:32:03,236
It's just so, so corrupt.

564
00:32:03,616 --> 00:32:05,556
Uh, but if you haven't
seen it, you should.

565
00:32:05,556 --> 00:32:06,186
It's called TPBAFK.

566
00:32:09,766 --> 00:32:10,406
I've seen it

567
00:32:10,596 --> 00:32:10,856
a long

568
00:32:10,866 --> 00:32:11,404
time ago.

569
00:32:11,476 --> 00:32:14,576
there's a quote from the
documentary that they prefer

570
00:32:14,626 --> 00:32:18,586
the abbreviation AFK to, to, um.

571
00:32:19,191 --> 00:32:24,191
IRL, because I'm just away from
keyboard, the internet is the real

572
00:32:24,191 --> 00:32:27,961
world, like there's no such thing
as IRL and then the internet, it's

573
00:32:28,181 --> 00:32:29,661
just away from keyboard or not.

574
00:32:30,291 --> 00:32:33,211
So yeah, there's a lot
of, yeah, great movie.

575
00:32:33,909 --> 00:32:38,049
We're jumping around a bit, but
on the topic of court cases, so

576
00:32:38,979 --> 00:32:43,139
the involvement in the recent
Coppa case, that's what we

577
00:32:43,739 --> 00:32:45,649
touched on at the beginning there.

578
00:32:46,449 --> 00:32:49,669
What made that feel worthwhile to you?

579
00:32:49,679 --> 00:32:51,879
Was there a real threat
there, did you think?

580
00:32:52,717 --> 00:32:54,507
Well, I kind of wanted to.

581
00:32:54,897 --> 00:32:57,457
Avoid the whole thing and
have nothing to do with it.

582
00:32:58,747 --> 00:33:03,900
But, um, sometimes I guess it's
important to speak the truth.

583
00:33:04,010 --> 00:33:07,380
And I really appreciate
Hodlonaut and everyone else

584
00:33:07,380 --> 00:33:10,740
who's been doing exactly that.

585
00:33:11,080 --> 00:33:16,280
Do you regret that you were always
yourself, uh, in, in this space?

586
00:33:16,310 --> 00:33:16,570
Well,

587
00:33:17,510 --> 00:33:18,810
actually, actually, actually, wait, wait,

588
00:33:18,905 --> 00:33:20,155
as opposed to anonymous, you mean?

589
00:33:20,350 --> 00:33:21,960
what was the story on, on that?

590
00:33:21,960 --> 00:33:25,550
Because I know you, you, you still
have, uh, some of the original,

591
00:33:25,720 --> 00:33:27,760
the original handle, um, right?

592
00:33:27,760 --> 00:33:29,980
Do you still go by Sirius, um,

593
00:33:30,000 --> 00:33:30,540
Yeah, I

594
00:33:30,590 --> 00:33:33,250
was never like, uh,
pseudonymous or anonymous.

595
00:33:33,250 --> 00:33:34,700
It was just my handle.

596
00:33:35,341 --> 00:33:39,011
but, but you, you weren't, you weren't
trying to hide your identity or anything.

597
00:33:39,021 --> 00:33:41,301
Do, do you have any,
any regrets about that?

598
00:33:41,331 --> 00:33:41,351
Yeah.

599
00:33:41,641 --> 00:33:42,021
not at all.

600
00:33:42,816 --> 00:33:46,106
So what's, what's your
thinking, uh, on that?

601
00:33:46,986 --> 00:33:53,456
The, the, um, the benefits, um, versus
the drawbacks of, of being anonymous.

602
00:33:53,486 --> 00:33:54,616
What, what do you think about that?

603
00:33:55,121 --> 00:33:59,941
No, I guess you, if you want to be like
truly anonymous and stay, stay hidden,

604
00:33:59,951 --> 00:34:03,661
you need to go to, um, links like Satoshi.

605
00:34:04,181 --> 00:34:04,511
Yeah,

606
00:34:04,661 --> 00:34:07,261
You store everywhere
and be really careful.

607
00:34:08,171 --> 00:34:14,961
Um, there'll be many people who have been
doxxed like the Nostr founder recently.

608
00:34:16,389 --> 00:34:21,469
I guess, I guess, um, like
the lawsuits have shown that.

609
00:34:21,619 --> 00:34:30,299
It has its advantages to stay anonymous
sometimes and like, um, yeah, yeah.

610
00:34:30,309 --> 00:34:34,069
And recently the maybe samurai wallet or

611
00:34:34,139 --> 00:34:34,799
yeah, yeah.

612
00:34:36,089 --> 00:34:38,049
but it's, you need to be really careful.

613
00:34:38,049 --> 00:34:43,899
And it's, I, I'm not sure if I would be
willing to do that, to take that stress

614
00:34:43,899 --> 00:34:45,829
from staying anonymous and hidden.

615
00:34:46,149 --> 00:34:49,429
No, the opposite side of that coin is
that we need people on the battlefront

616
00:34:49,429 --> 00:34:54,439
who are ready to take the, I mean, this
whole thing, we, we just saw Erik Cason's

617
00:34:54,439 --> 00:34:56,739
opening speech here at the, at the venue.

618
00:34:56,749 --> 00:34:57,919
It's great speech.

619
00:34:58,289 --> 00:34:59,169
Uh, and because,

620
00:34:59,294 --> 00:35:00,324
to BTC Prague, it's

621
00:35:00,324 --> 00:35:00,724
actually

622
00:35:00,829 --> 00:35:02,549
it's absolutely fantastic.

623
00:35:02,739 --> 00:35:07,329
And it's so spot on that, like,
these people that want to take

624
00:35:07,339 --> 00:35:09,439
our stuff against our will.

625
00:35:10,044 --> 00:35:11,174
Are the criminals.

626
00:35:11,794 --> 00:35:13,004
They are the problem.

627
00:35:13,414 --> 00:35:20,924
And if there's a, a juridical system
that can, that can, like, make a, a,

628
00:35:20,994 --> 00:35:26,894
a great guy such as Hodlonaut have
to fight a legal battle for five

629
00:35:26,894 --> 00:35:30,684
years, like, he's one of the most
ethical, ethical people I know of.

630
00:35:30,964 --> 00:35:34,334
And, and, and the Pirate
Bay people, and all of this.

631
00:35:34,874 --> 00:35:37,214
It's happening in this
world we're living in now.

632
00:35:37,324 --> 00:35:45,014
So, so Bitcoin and Nostr are the tools to
get out of this thing and like show people

633
00:35:45,014 --> 00:35:48,014
that these ideas don't come from nowhere.

634
00:35:48,354 --> 00:35:53,094
They come from insights about human
action and what we are and what we

635
00:35:53,094 --> 00:35:56,454
do and violence versus non violence.

636
00:35:56,964 --> 00:35:57,144
Uh,

637
00:35:57,484 --> 00:36:01,244
and that's the fight we're taking,
and like, we're proud to be taking it.

638
00:36:01,274 --> 00:36:03,754
Like, we should, we should
really stand our ground.

639
00:36:04,139 --> 00:36:04,729
Yes.

640
00:36:05,746 --> 00:36:08,506
that, that anonymous pseudonymous,
there's anything wrong with that.

641
00:36:08,546 --> 00:36:08,996
And then

642
00:36:09,026 --> 00:36:11,806
there's, there's reasons for people
making, for making that choice, right?

643
00:36:12,156 --> 00:36:15,296
I mean, with, with Hotlinet,
it was, it was like too unique.

644
00:36:15,816 --> 00:36:18,996
Things that were wrong with the world.

645
00:36:19,596 --> 00:36:26,916
Uh, it was that the UK libel laws
are very specifically super easy for

646
00:36:27,086 --> 00:36:31,076
a famous person to just say, you've
libeled me, I've got lots of money and

647
00:36:31,076 --> 00:36:34,771
I can sue you, and then that all the
other countries say, you've libeled me.

648
00:36:35,101 --> 00:36:37,811
We will follow your legal rulings and

649
00:36:38,261 --> 00:36:39,311
exactly, Exactly.

650
00:36:39,321 --> 00:36:40,851
So it's, it's that interconnectedness.

651
00:36:40,881 --> 00:36:44,841
It's the, it's the states backing each
other up is the real root problem.

652
00:36:45,151 --> 00:36:49,731
If you get it, I can't imagine
that, say, the Federated States of

653
00:36:49,731 --> 00:36:54,801
Micronesia could decide that, you
know, that, that their libel laws are

654
00:36:54,811 --> 00:36:57,841
just absolutely like nuts bonkers now.

655
00:36:57,891 --> 00:37:00,441
And, and all of the other countries
of the world would do that.

656
00:37:00,441 --> 00:37:05,081
But the UK has the historical standing
and they're, Legal system, and so, it's

657
00:37:05,081 --> 00:37:10,861
just, he got screwed so many ways, and
then of course, the motivation to find

658
00:37:10,861 --> 00:37:15,061
out his identity and all this, it's
tough, and so, I guess back to the idea

659
00:37:15,061 --> 00:37:20,291
of that, yeah, maybe it's better to
just have the control yourself, and not

660
00:37:20,321 --> 00:37:25,891
be pseudonymous, because in a way, you
take control of your own identity, I

661
00:37:25,891 --> 00:37:31,201
am me, and there's nothing hidden here,
so you can't take that away from me.

662
00:37:32,711 --> 00:37:33,271
Right?

663
00:37:35,381 --> 00:37:38,331
You can't get your identity
taken away from you.

664
00:37:38,331 --> 00:37:42,521
You can't have that overlay layer
can't ever get stripped back, right?

665
00:37:42,971 --> 00:37:47,561
I think that's the risk of being
pseudonymous or anonymous, right?

666
00:37:47,746 --> 00:37:50,736
it might give you a false
sense of security, I guess.

667
00:37:50,756 --> 00:37:51,176
Yeah.

668
00:37:51,977 --> 00:37:54,877
It can become catastrophic
if you lose it, basically.

669
00:37:55,982 --> 00:38:02,012
But like, Bitcoin has pointed out so
well that money printing is, is evil,

670
00:38:02,132 --> 00:38:08,667
and it's, uh, it's enriching people
on levels that are just Unimaginable.

671
00:38:08,957 --> 00:38:14,587
Uh, the state has so much power
everywhere and they use it for

672
00:38:14,637 --> 00:38:17,357
other evil stuff, like, uh,

673
00:38:17,682 --> 00:38:20,472
and Bitcoin has opened
our eyes in this regard.

674
00:38:20,522 --> 00:38:24,842
Many people have only with Bitcoin
started thinking about these things.

675
00:38:25,167 --> 00:38:30,307
yeah, which is, which is in hindsight,
it's so like, how could, before, before

676
00:38:30,827 --> 00:38:36,877
the Bitcoin paradigm, how could everyone
on earth just Buy into this bullshit,

677
00:38:37,067 --> 00:38:41,297
it's, it's, it blows, blows the mind
that, that everyone fell for it.

678
00:38:41,387 --> 00:38:45,427
And like, only a handful of
people on the entire planet was

679
00:38:45,447 --> 00:38:46,837
thinking about a solution for it.

680
00:38:46,867 --> 00:38:48,707
It's just, it's just weird.

681
00:38:48,872 --> 00:38:49,322
yeah.

682
00:38:50,172 --> 00:38:51,962
Bitcoin like forces you to think about it.

683
00:38:51,982 --> 00:38:53,752
First you're like, no,
it's not gonna work.

684
00:38:53,762 --> 00:38:54,402
Then you start.

685
00:38:54,582 --> 00:38:57,862
I'm thinking, wait a minute,
how does money actually work?

686
00:38:57,912 --> 00:38:58,232
Yeah.

687
00:38:58,787 --> 00:39:01,867
And then, wait another
minute, it has to work.

688
00:39:02,087 --> 00:39:03,967
Like, otherwise, like, it's just darkness.

689
00:39:04,532 --> 00:39:10,942
Ahead, you know, programmable people
and CBDCs, uh, yeah, that's awful.

690
00:39:10,952 --> 00:39:11,522
So yeah.

691
00:39:12,082 --> 00:39:17,212
Fight the fight, increase your freedom
footprint, brush your teeth, amen.

692
00:39:18,457 --> 00:39:20,577
Share, like, subscribe, etc, etc.

693
00:40:20,943 --> 00:40:25,813
Maybe on a, maybe on a slightly related
note here, bringing it close to home,

694
00:40:25,943 --> 00:40:30,903
slightly literally, uh, Finland has
actually been really involved in

695
00:40:31,153 --> 00:40:35,103
Bitcoin from the very early days,
and I mean, our listeners know and

696
00:40:35,103 --> 00:40:39,643
understand, I'm the pseudo Finn, I'm
the, I've picked Finland as my adopted

697
00:40:39,643 --> 00:40:43,663
home and all this, and I guess this
is, this is a whole line of questions.

698
00:40:44,093 --> 00:40:47,573
Uh, one of the things is, I've, I've been
sort of asserting that I think Finland

699
00:40:47,573 --> 00:40:52,923
is one of the least insane places on the
planet, but that's sort of biased from

700
00:40:52,923 --> 00:40:55,363
someone coming from outside to, to in.

701
00:40:56,013 --> 00:40:57,443
What, what do you, what do you think?

702
00:40:57,443 --> 00:41:00,283
What, what keeps you, uh, in Finland?

703
00:41:00,283 --> 00:41:04,123
Is it actually, compared to
other places, less insane?

704
00:41:04,966 --> 00:41:08,816
Well, I guess family and friends
is what keeps me in Finland.

705
00:41:09,776 --> 00:41:10,746
Native culture.

706
00:41:10,826 --> 00:41:12,306
I guess it's my home after all.

707
00:41:12,736 --> 00:41:16,156
Korskyn Korva?

708
00:41:16,636 --> 00:41:16,936
Yeah.

709
00:41:17,636 --> 00:41:21,616
Summer is pretty nice, but everyone
in Finland fantasizes about moving,

710
00:41:21,706 --> 00:41:23,736
going somewhere south in the winter.

711
00:41:23,786 --> 00:41:25,126
I guess it's the same in Sweden.

712
00:41:25,466 --> 00:41:27,436
Yeah, yeah, I, I, I did.

713
00:41:28,016 --> 00:41:31,556
So how, why do you think
Finland is less insane?

714
00:41:32,123 --> 00:41:39,716
Yeah, to, to me, the social system, uh, is
pretty okay in terms of that things work.

715
00:41:40,776 --> 00:41:44,966
And not just the social system, I
mean, government run stuff, just

716
00:41:45,046 --> 00:41:48,506
society as a whole works pretty well.

717
00:41:49,076 --> 00:41:53,306
Of course, of course there are cases where
it doesn't work for someone in particular,

718
00:41:53,606 --> 00:41:56,566
and every type of bureaucracy or something

719
00:41:56,926 --> 00:42:01,126
This is relative to other countries
and not relative to the private sector.

720
00:42:01,396 --> 00:42:01,656
Yeah.

721
00:42:01,671 --> 00:42:02,151
Exactly.

722
00:42:02,151 --> 00:42:06,531
Well, but I'm also talking about
that there's private sector elements,

723
00:42:06,531 --> 00:42:10,791
like, companies all have this,
everyone has the same types of,

724
00:42:10,801 --> 00:42:12,621
for example, vacation policies.

725
00:42:13,151 --> 00:42:15,891
I don't believe there's a law
that says the companies have to

726
00:42:15,901 --> 00:42:21,051
give an extra vacation bonus, but
they all do, because the employees

727
00:42:21,051 --> 00:42:22,451
wouldn't work for them otherwise.

728
00:42:23,076 --> 00:42:24,946
Uh, something, something like this.

729
00:42:24,946 --> 00:42:29,416
And, and so it's, it's just, to, to
me, my impression is that, is that

730
00:42:29,456 --> 00:42:36,746
Finland is, is pretty well functioning
as a society compared to many, if not

731
00:42:36,746 --> 00:42:38,676
most of the other places in the world.

732
00:42:38,676 --> 00:42:43,016
And that maybe there's some lessons
to learn about that the society

733
00:42:43,046 --> 00:42:45,096
can build in a way that's cohesive.

734
00:42:45,391 --> 00:42:49,201
Yeah, I guess it's the same in all
of Scandinavia, like culture of trust

735
00:42:49,201 --> 00:42:54,361
and we have institutions that work
to some extent, like the corruption

736
00:42:54,391 --> 00:42:56,051
is maybe on a different level.

737
00:42:56,101 --> 00:43:00,530
You don't bribe, bribe the officials
in everyday encounters, it's,

738
00:43:01,010 --> 00:43:05,400
No, no, I see it as you have to bribe
them on a higher level, like you bribe

739
00:43:05,410 --> 00:43:08,940
the top instead of the policemen on the
street, you have to bribe the entire

740
00:43:08,940 --> 00:43:15,890
institution, which, and I've, coming from
Sweden, I've seen, like, I think that is

741
00:43:16,000 --> 00:43:20,180
the main problem with the Scandinavian
countries, this culture of trust in

742
00:43:20,180 --> 00:43:24,180
the institutions, because when the
institutions fail, it's dangerous as fuck.

743
00:43:24,745 --> 00:43:27,245
well, I don't necessarily mean
trust in the institutions.

744
00:43:27,255 --> 00:43:30,480
Uh, more like trust in Each other

745
00:43:30,605 --> 00:43:31,795
Yeah, that's also true.

746
00:43:31,810 --> 00:43:32,180
Yeah.

747
00:43:32,810 --> 00:43:37,960
that, that on average, you know what
to expect from any other person you

748
00:43:37,960 --> 00:43:39,460
encounter on the street, basically.

749
00:43:39,460 --> 00:43:40,720
And, and that's pretty nice.

750
00:43:40,760 --> 00:43:42,990
It works as long as people are honest.

751
00:43:43,255 --> 00:43:48,075
But, when they're not,
it's, it's, it's very bad.

752
00:43:48,630 --> 00:43:52,980
So what made Finland a hotbed for,
for the Bitcoin community early on?

753
00:43:52,980 --> 00:43:56,460
Because it, it wasn't, it wasn't
just you, there was local bitcoins,

754
00:43:56,490 --> 00:43:59,190
there's, um, mining stuff going on.

755
00:43:59,640 --> 00:44:01,261
What do you think was the factor on that?

756
00:44:02,640 --> 00:44:05,350
I don't know technology post Nokia.

757
00:44:05,810 --> 00:44:10,950
I guess that was around the time
when Nokia started losing to Apple.

758
00:44:11,000 --> 00:44:11,440
I don't know.

759
00:44:12,349 --> 00:44:15,929
Well, that's an interesting theory, and
actually that's a theory why Finland

760
00:44:15,929 --> 00:44:20,859
has such a big video game industry as
well, is that it was a post Nokia thing.

761
00:44:20,859 --> 00:44:23,939
It's really interesting how that's
affected the country, and in the cyber

762
00:44:23,939 --> 00:44:27,949
security industry, nearly everyone who
has been in the industry long enough

763
00:44:28,199 --> 00:44:30,394
was, worked at Nokia at the time.

764
00:44:30,834 --> 00:44:31,404
Some point.

765
00:44:31,599 --> 00:44:31,879
Yeah.

766
00:44:31,879 --> 00:44:36,619
And demo scene is as well, um,
credited for the game industry.

767
00:44:36,969 --> 00:44:42,849
What's the, the, the, sats, uh,
snake, uh, competition called again?

768
00:44:43,214 --> 00:44:44,194
Chain duel?

769
00:44:44,259 --> 00:44:45,419
Chain Duel, yeah, yeah.

770
00:44:45,599 --> 00:44:49,719
That wouldn't have been a thing if
it wasn't for the Nokia 3310, right?

771
00:44:49,759 --> 00:44:53,909
Because that's, that, that phone
sort of popularized the snake game.

772
00:44:54,969 --> 00:44:56,969
Wasn't that where it sort of started?

773
00:44:57,054 --> 00:44:57,454
Sure,

774
00:44:57,469 --> 00:44:58,549
The snake hype.

775
00:44:59,439 --> 00:44:59,949
yeah, yeah.

776
00:45:00,164 --> 00:45:04,754
But was there, was there, like, um,
uh, something that, not just the

777
00:45:04,754 --> 00:45:09,374
technology side, like, something
about understanding the money side of

778
00:45:09,374 --> 00:45:11,184
things or the solution to the problem?

779
00:45:12,028 --> 00:45:17,528
I don't really know if there's anything,
anything, uh, in that, that regard.

780
00:45:18,038 --> 00:45:22,558
Like if you think about Prague, they
have a history with Soviet Union.

781
00:45:22,963 --> 00:45:26,663
Like they, they don't, East Europe
doesn't have the same naivety as

782
00:45:27,053 --> 00:45:29,233
maybe Scandinavia or Finland has.

783
00:45:29,428 --> 00:45:30,138
Exactly.

784
00:45:30,503 --> 00:45:33,433
Although, although Finland
with with its own history,

785
00:45:33,530 --> 00:45:34,233
we, Yeah,

786
00:45:34,233 --> 00:45:34,413
we

787
00:45:34,413 --> 00:45:36,953
have our own history,
but it's a bit different.

788
00:45:36,983 --> 00:45:41,723
We never like purged the Soviets
from the government that occupied it

789
00:45:41,783 --> 00:45:46,523
after we fell under Soviet influence
to some extent after the war.

790
00:45:46,738 --> 00:45:48,378
No, you never, you never let them in.

791
00:45:49,463 --> 00:45:53,493
Well, there's still the
social Democrats, the old

792
00:45:53,493 --> 00:45:54,293
communists in the

793
00:45:54,293 --> 00:45:54,723
government.

794
00:45:55,439 --> 00:45:56,209
that's interesting.

795
00:45:56,209 --> 00:46:00,389
I mean, I don't I don't mean for myself
personally to paint a picture of that.

796
00:46:00,389 --> 00:46:03,779
I think I think it's a perfect
place, but I do think it's I do

797
00:46:03,779 --> 00:46:08,689
think it's a great place to live if
you can manage the unique things.

798
00:46:09,019 --> 00:46:11,979
And I'm also interested
now in I'm interested in.

799
00:46:12,789 --> 00:46:16,529
Bitcoin adoption in Finland, because
there are a lot of things in the

800
00:46:16,529 --> 00:46:19,249
way of Bitcoin adoption currently.

801
00:46:19,249 --> 00:46:22,139
I don't think that, I don't think this
is unique in Europe, but the capital

802
00:46:22,139 --> 00:46:25,529
gains tax is stupidly high in Finland.

803
00:46:25,529 --> 00:46:26,999
It's like 30 percent on anything.

804
00:46:27,009 --> 00:46:28,399
It's not unique to Bitcoin.

805
00:46:29,199 --> 00:46:33,689
Uh, the VAT is just going up as well,
and that's, and that's Just going to

806
00:46:33,689 --> 00:46:37,869
make all businesses harder to run,
but, but then again, we've got, uh,

807
00:46:37,899 --> 00:46:42,089
Bitcoin mining is starting to become
a bigger thing in, in Finland, uh,

808
00:46:42,159 --> 00:46:44,739
there, there's a bunch of companies
that are coming in and, and all this.

809
00:46:44,749 --> 00:46:49,449
So, I mean, are, are you, are you
involved much in, in sort of the, the

810
00:46:49,449 --> 00:46:52,109
local scene adoption in, in Finland?

811
00:46:52,559 --> 00:46:56,749
No, I'm not actually very much involved
with the Bitcoin scene in Finland.

812
00:46:57,589 --> 00:46:58,789
Will be interesting to see.

813
00:46:59,504 --> 00:47:04,844
Um, if Bitcoin starts changing or
affecting the politics anytime soon.

814
00:47:05,887 --> 00:47:10,437
Yeah, the, the irony and the
downside to things working so good.

815
00:47:10,832 --> 00:47:15,122
Is that maybe Finland is one of the
last places for it to pick up with

816
00:47:15,422 --> 00:47:17,282
any institutional level, right?

817
00:47:17,652 --> 00:47:18,632
The individuals.

818
00:47:18,722 --> 00:47:19,042
Yeah.

819
00:47:19,292 --> 00:47:23,732
but maybe if we get some
industry, maybe if we got some,

820
00:47:23,732 --> 00:47:26,342
like our own micro strategy in,

821
00:47:27,162 --> 00:47:31,012
Yeah, and I think it also has to do with
what's happening in other countries.

822
00:47:31,012 --> 00:47:36,202
Like, like right now, it's hard to see
that the Scandinavian countries would ever

823
00:47:36,202 --> 00:47:41,862
get, like, we'll ever see institutional
adoption, adoption of Bitcoin, but like,

824
00:47:42,872 --> 00:47:48,252
the world around Scandinavia changes
and, and, uh, we can't, they can't

825
00:47:48,282 --> 00:47:50,862
like, like, ignore reality for too long.

826
00:47:51,352 --> 00:47:55,732
yeah, I guess maybe climate
could be one of our advantages.

827
00:47:55,762 --> 00:47:57,412
Like we need heating in the North

828
00:47:57,432 --> 00:47:57,702
Yeah.

829
00:47:58,362 --> 00:47:59,292
that could be done with Bitcoin.

830
00:47:59,862 --> 00:48:00,532
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

831
00:48:01,412 --> 00:48:02,612
Good, good angle.

832
00:48:02,772 --> 00:48:02,942
Yeah.

833
00:48:02,942 --> 00:48:04,092
A bunch of companies doing that.

834
00:48:04,092 --> 00:48:05,212
I think it's genius.

835
00:48:05,382 --> 00:48:08,092
The, the problem I can't get my
head around and we should talk to

836
00:48:08,092 --> 00:48:10,942
someone about this is, is, well,
what do you do in the summer?

837
00:48:12,522 --> 00:48:16,062
Do you just turn, do you just turn
the Bitcoin miners off or run a,

838
00:48:16,537 --> 00:48:19,947
At a loss, does the power company
have to keep, or no, sorry, the

839
00:48:20,477 --> 00:48:24,097
district heating company still need
to keep buying your, your power?

840
00:48:24,097 --> 00:48:26,097
Like, what's the, what's the idea?

841
00:48:26,342 --> 00:48:28,432
You hit the swimming pools and spas,

842
00:48:28,842 --> 00:48:29,652
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

843
00:48:29,777 --> 00:48:30,287
There we go.

844
00:48:31,202 --> 00:48:31,347
The Mi

845
00:48:31,387 --> 00:48:32,327
the lakes, yes, heat

846
00:48:32,357 --> 00:48:32,707
Lakes.

847
00:48:32,707 --> 00:48:32,972
You can, yeah.

848
00:48:32,972 --> 00:48:33,992
The mining pools.

849
00:48:34,142 --> 00:48:34,322
Yeah.

850
00:48:34,907 --> 00:48:36,027
,
mining pools,

851
00:48:38,227 --> 00:48:38,947
Good joke.

852
00:48:40,477 --> 00:48:42,917
Maybe we should, um, turn
back to Nostr a little bit.

853
00:48:42,917 --> 00:48:45,717
So, so we've scratched the surface,
but, but, uh, yeah, what, what

854
00:48:45,877 --> 00:48:47,367
are you working on right now?

855
00:48:47,367 --> 00:48:49,567
And I mean, specifically,
what's, what's the.

856
00:48:49,642 --> 00:48:54,822
Uh, at the Iris Snort,
um, what do you call it?

857
00:48:55,132 --> 00:48:56,292
Partnership or whatever it is.

858
00:48:56,322 --> 00:48:57,122
What are you working on?

859
00:48:57,782 --> 00:49:00,542
Yeah, so for the past few
months I haven't actually worked

860
00:49:00,542 --> 00:49:02,452
on the social side too much.

861
00:49:02,952 --> 00:49:05,912
I've done like iris docs, docs.

862
00:49:06,332 --> 00:49:06,972
iris.

863
00:49:07,332 --> 00:49:10,122
2 is like a Google Docs alternative.

864
00:49:10,552 --> 00:49:14,672
I don't recommend it yet, but it's
like, it's a prototype at this point.

865
00:49:15,262 --> 00:49:19,442
And also I made like, um, if you're a
developer, you can type in the console,

866
00:49:19,712 --> 00:49:26,652
npm create iris, it will give you a
template, uh, for a react application,

867
00:49:26,682 --> 00:49:30,972
web application, uh, that, uh, for
Nostr with all the basic building blocks

868
00:49:30,972 --> 00:49:33,222
like login and avatars and whatever.

869
00:49:33,852 --> 00:49:38,182
Um, and, uh, for the past few
months, uh, for the past month,

870
00:49:38,222 --> 00:49:41,072
I've, um, uh, been helping a team.

871
00:49:41,342 --> 00:49:45,942
that is pursuing a bounty
on a github on Nostr.

872
00:49:46,522 --> 00:49:52,692
So Jack Dorsey is offering a 10 bitcoin
bounty for a github replacement on Nostr.

873
00:49:53,082 --> 00:49:55,942
So I've been helping a team
that is trying to do that.

874
00:49:55,942 --> 00:49:56,802
Yeah,

875
00:49:56,842 --> 00:49:57,052
Yeah.

876
00:49:57,052 --> 00:49:57,952
That's super cool.

877
00:49:58,042 --> 00:50:02,812
So the, the, the big GitHub was
bought by Microsoft, was it?

878
00:50:03,412 --> 00:50:03,622
Yeah.

879
00:50:03,622 --> 00:50:05,122
Yeah, yeah.

880
00:50:05,122 --> 00:50:06,082
There's a danger there.

881
00:50:06,650 --> 00:50:11,410
yeah, git is just, as a protocol, it's
a little bit decentralized already.

882
00:50:11,420 --> 00:50:14,490
You have a repository on
your local computer already.

883
00:50:14,550 --> 00:50:17,630
You can always Run your own
server and push it there.

884
00:50:17,720 --> 00:50:19,340
Use multiple servers.

885
00:50:19,600 --> 00:50:19,940
All right.

886
00:50:20,720 --> 00:50:22,590
This is another
interesting area, actually.

887
00:50:22,640 --> 00:50:27,170
So, yeah, local computer, um, running
a node, the cloud, all of these things.

888
00:50:27,200 --> 00:50:31,080
We've, we've, um, we've gotten,
uh, we've really started, like, uh,

889
00:50:31,850 --> 00:50:36,210
there are a lot of great nodes, um,
node in a box, uh, companies and

890
00:50:36,210 --> 00:50:37,970
stuff, but we really like Start9, uh,

891
00:50:38,520 --> 00:50:44,000
Yeah, it's like everything for
everything you want to run on your own.

892
00:50:44,005 --> 00:50:48,775
exactly, yeah, their mindset is great,
this sort of sovereign computing thing,

893
00:50:48,775 --> 00:50:56,885
like running your own server node to
run all the things, like, is this a big

894
00:50:56,885 --> 00:51:04,065
component of sort of being a full part
of the Bitcoin Nostr ecosystem, running

895
00:51:04,065 --> 00:51:08,360
a node and stuff Taking your own data
yourself, hosting your data yourself.

896
00:51:09,270 --> 00:51:10,560
Yeah, it's good.

897
00:51:10,560 --> 00:51:13,710
But I don't think that's what
everyone's gonna be doing.

898
00:51:13,950 --> 00:51:17,190
I think we need to have all that
stuff on your phone in your pocket.

899
00:51:17,250 --> 00:51:19,890
That's how everyone could do it.

900
00:51:20,660 --> 00:51:26,210
So does this create sort of a, a, almost
like a relay layer approach because,

901
00:51:26,340 --> 00:51:30,130
uh, I guess the idea is the number of
Bitcoin node runners is vastly less

902
00:51:30,130 --> 00:51:34,230
than the number of Bitcoin users,
hodlers or whatever you call them.

903
00:51:34,680 --> 00:51:37,560
Uh, and the number of Nostr
users is vastly less than

904
00:51:37,560 --> 00:51:39,570
the number of relays, right?

905
00:51:40,150 --> 00:51:44,810
Uh, and so is this sort of a related
thing, like it sort of creates a

906
00:51:44,810 --> 00:51:47,840
new layer of the cloud, basically?

907
00:51:48,120 --> 00:51:51,200
Someone else's computer, but
it's slightly closer to the user?

908
00:51:52,167 --> 00:51:58,637
Yeah, I mean, it's uh, it's a good
idea to, um, host your own stuff.

909
00:51:59,887 --> 00:52:00,727
I just wonder if.

910
00:52:01,527 --> 00:52:03,867
Um, if the layman is
going to be doing that.

911
00:52:05,097 --> 00:52:07,567
Well, what's the melee quote?

912
00:52:07,587 --> 00:52:12,717
Like, it's more important to
awaken the lions than to shepherd

913
00:52:12,727 --> 00:52:15,827
the sheep or herd the sheep.

914
00:52:17,177 --> 00:52:20,807
Yeah, but I guess another angle
to this though, right, is that, is

915
00:52:20,817 --> 00:52:27,855
that, for example, if I were wanting
to host my own git, The issue turns

916
00:52:27,855 --> 00:52:32,045
into that, okay, well, I've got my
computer and I, if I'm able to connect

917
00:52:32,045 --> 00:52:33,925
to my computer, I can, I can use it.

918
00:52:33,955 --> 00:52:38,075
People can connect to it all this,
but then there's no redundancy, right?

919
00:52:38,155 --> 00:52:39,125
It's my computer.

920
00:52:39,165 --> 00:52:43,445
And if that computer If that
goes down, then there's nothing.

921
00:52:43,445 --> 00:52:46,025
There's, there's, there's
a problem there, right?

922
00:52:46,515 --> 00:52:53,205
Is this, my, my understanding a little bit
is that the relay thing starts to solve

923
00:52:53,205 --> 00:52:57,525
this redundancy problem a little bit by,
by relaying it throughout the network.

924
00:52:57,525 --> 00:53:02,292
You can just Pick up back again,
basically, even from the Nostr side

925
00:53:02,292 --> 00:53:06,142
of it, you can set up your own relay
and request all of your old, uh,

926
00:53:06,332 --> 00:53:09,712
uh, notes and, and all this, and
then basically get all of your data

927
00:53:09,712 --> 00:53:11,112
back yourself, something like that.

928
00:53:11,247 --> 00:53:12,587
Yeah, that makes sense.

929
00:53:12,617 --> 00:53:18,187
Like content addressed file storage,
like BitTorrent content is addressed by

930
00:53:18,547 --> 00:53:22,567
the actual content and not the network
location, which will change over time.

931
00:53:22,967 --> 00:53:27,807
So with content addressing, you
can store it in multiple locations

932
00:53:27,837 --> 00:53:30,017
and download from multiple peers.

933
00:53:30,737 --> 00:53:37,637
I think a crucial part of this
is teaching honeypots, like

934
00:53:37,637 --> 00:53:39,077
having too much data stored.

935
00:53:39,952 --> 00:53:45,072
Somewhere, uh, there was a great story
from, uh, that I heard someone told me, I

936
00:53:45,072 --> 00:53:50,752
don't remember whom, but in, um, Amsterdam
last year about, uh, a village in, in

937
00:53:50,762 --> 00:53:56,152
Holland where, like, like all the villages
had a voluntary voluntary Like, accounting

938
00:53:56,152 --> 00:54:01,362
of the population, so you're filled in
a form with, like, height and shoe size

939
00:54:01,412 --> 00:54:07,532
and, uh, religion, uh, and, uh, they were
storing it in the, mostly in the churches

940
00:54:07,582 --> 00:54:09,922
in every little one horse town in Holland.

941
00:54:10,727 --> 00:54:13,817
And then, of course, when the Nazis
came, they went there and, you

942
00:54:13,817 --> 00:54:17,877
know, looked up all the Jews and
sent out Hans Landa to catch them.

943
00:54:18,277 --> 00:54:23,157
And, but in this particular village,
uh, where this guy was from, his

944
00:54:23,157 --> 00:54:27,387
father had burned down the house
where they stored the documents.

945
00:54:27,457 --> 00:54:29,767
I don't think it was the
church, but it was like, like

946
00:54:29,767 --> 00:54:30,727
some warehouse or something.

947
00:54:30,727 --> 00:54:34,087
So, when the Nazis came, it
just burned down the honeypot.

948
00:54:34,397 --> 00:54:36,367
And they had like 40
percent more documents.

949
00:54:36,942 --> 00:54:39,792
Holocaust survivors there
because they couldn't catch them.

950
00:54:40,202 --> 00:54:43,582
So that's, that's the thing with honey,
but it's such a great illustration

951
00:54:43,582 --> 00:54:49,272
of what, what the dangers are with
these like, uh, single entities

952
00:54:49,272 --> 00:54:50,942
that hold people's information.

953
00:54:51,802 --> 00:54:55,992
Um, yeah, I, I think people are
so unaware of the risks with that

954
00:54:56,823 --> 00:54:58,013
What do you think is the solution?

955
00:54:58,023 --> 00:55:04,353
Because, because data is sort of
freeing us, the digital revolution,

956
00:55:04,353 --> 00:55:08,543
and being able to use data to,
to enhance our own capabilities.

957
00:55:08,553 --> 00:55:08,743
A.

958
00:55:08,743 --> 00:55:09,083
I.

959
00:55:09,768 --> 00:55:14,068
Being an example of this, to the
extent that AI is actually useful,

960
00:55:14,498 --> 00:55:17,728
it does simplify a lot of things.

961
00:55:17,788 --> 00:55:21,208
You can ask the AI, how do I do this?

962
00:55:21,528 --> 00:55:24,488
And it can give you step by
step instructions how to do

963
00:55:24,488 --> 00:55:26,298
something and save a lot of time.

964
00:55:26,593 --> 00:55:34,203
But by giving the AI your data,
that puts yourself at risk.

965
00:55:35,063 --> 00:55:42,383
Putting your data on a cloud service,
it's convenient to download it, but you've

966
00:55:42,383 --> 00:55:44,573
given all your data to someone else.

967
00:55:45,183 --> 00:55:48,723
Do you have any idea, is there
a solution here in Nosterland?

968
00:55:48,723 --> 00:55:48,953
And

969
00:55:49,733 --> 00:55:54,193
Um, well, I hope we're going to be
moving to edge computing, like it's

970
00:55:54,233 --> 00:55:59,563
happening on your own devices, phones,
or devices instead of the cloud.

971
00:56:00,833 --> 00:56:06,493
I hope maybe Apple, Apple is taking
that direction, maybe to some

972
00:56:06,493 --> 00:56:12,203
extent, like, um, already some
models are running on your iPhone.

973
00:56:13,489 --> 00:56:17,749
yes, I would much rather run the AI
on my own devices than the cloud.

974
00:56:18,770 --> 00:56:27,835
so, so, what are the things that you would
suggest that a typical Uh, layman or user

975
00:56:27,835 --> 00:56:32,915
of these technologies, uh, work to do now,
what are some best practices in your view?

976
00:56:34,940 --> 00:56:35,850
For AI or,

977
00:56:36,105 --> 00:56:39,025
To, to stay private, um, to, to,

978
00:56:39,070 --> 00:56:40,440
self sovereignty in general.

979
00:56:40,475 --> 00:56:41,695
for self sovereignty, yeah.

980
00:56:42,530 --> 00:56:45,680
well, use Nostr and Bitcoin.

981
00:56:46,060 --> 00:56:52,230
Um, if there's small, even small steps
to improve your privacy, like using

982
00:56:52,230 --> 00:56:54,840
encrypted cloud storage or something,

983
00:56:57,320 --> 00:57:03,770
I guess it could exponentially like lower
your footprint, surveillance footprint.

984
00:57:04,060 --> 00:57:05,820
Yeah, surveillance footprint.

985
00:57:05,820 --> 00:57:07,360
We don't want that.

986
00:57:08,555 --> 00:57:09,625
No, we don't want that.

987
00:57:10,245 --> 00:57:15,675
So what's, what's the, um, what are
you most excited about with Nostr?

988
00:57:16,606 --> 00:57:17,756
Well, it's interesting that.

989
00:57:18,976 --> 00:57:25,926
Nostr is really the only, only public
key based, uh, decentralized network,

990
00:57:26,006 --> 00:57:27,986
because it's not like rocket science.

991
00:57:29,666 --> 00:57:32,086
It opens up so, so many possibilities.

992
00:57:32,086 --> 00:57:38,036
We can, We could basically decentralize
all the platforms to be trusty

993
00:57:38,066 --> 00:57:40,876
third parties, no points of failure.

994
00:57:42,296 --> 00:57:44,146
I'm really quite bullish on it.

995
00:57:44,926 --> 00:57:48,326
It's a MeTube rather than YouTube.

996
00:57:49,341 --> 00:57:50,041
It's a good joke.

997
00:57:51,921 --> 00:57:54,261
How would that, how would that work
in practice in the sense of that

998
00:57:54,981 --> 00:57:59,451
anywhere where you still need a sort
of centralized server to work, right?

999
00:57:59,791 --> 00:58:06,181
Well, okay, the centralized services,
a lot of them work because, uh,

1000
00:58:06,461 --> 00:58:11,001
because they can centralize the
decision making and keep everything

1001
00:58:11,001 --> 00:58:13,181
in one place and it's convenient.

1002
00:58:13,191 --> 00:58:15,791
You give, you give up, you give
up sovereignty for convenience.

1003
00:58:16,401 --> 00:58:19,846
How does that work in a world
where the identities are central?

1004
00:58:19,846 --> 00:58:22,691
What I'm trying to say is that
most people are, uh, decentralized.

1005
00:58:22,691 --> 00:58:27,426
Would you still need the centralized
service, but interact with it

1006
00:58:27,426 --> 00:58:29,546
with the decentralized identity?

1007
00:58:30,040 --> 00:58:34,980
Yeah, I mean, you could use Nostr
in different configurations.

1008
00:58:35,030 --> 00:58:39,380
There could even be, you could
only connect to one, one relay.

1009
00:58:40,220 --> 00:58:43,010
If you want, but you can
always change it afterwards.

1010
00:58:44,410 --> 00:58:47,700
It's always better to
be more decentralized.

1011
00:58:48,319 --> 00:58:51,149
Okay, YouTube as an example.

1012
00:58:51,389 --> 00:58:56,189
Say YouTube, um, changes it so that
you can, you can watch YouTube,

1013
00:58:56,379 --> 00:59:00,339
have a YouTube account with,
with a Nostr public key, right?

1014
00:59:00,609 --> 00:59:07,989
But YouTube could still say, your account
gets banned if you do the wrong things.

1015
00:59:08,349 --> 00:59:12,369
Well, you could, theoretically, you
could store the videos locally, right?

1016
00:59:12,369 --> 00:59:15,779
And then connect peer to peer and watch
them instead of having them on a server.

1017
00:59:16,179 --> 00:59:16,499
Yeah.

1018
00:59:16,519 --> 00:59:20,919
Like, um, file storage is,
um, a hot topic on Nostr

1019
00:59:20,969 --> 00:59:21,439
right now,

1020
00:59:21,439 --> 00:59:24,729
because right now Nostr is
only for textual content and,

1021
00:59:24,729 --> 00:59:26,639
uh, media files are typically.

1022
00:59:26,969 --> 00:59:30,059
Hosted by normal HTTP hosts

1023
00:59:30,089 --> 00:59:32,379
servers somewhere by normal URLs.

1024
00:59:32,799 --> 00:59:35,969
I need, I think we need to
decentralize that in some way.

1025
00:59:36,619 --> 00:59:40,509
Um, I mean, media servers, they
are like a moderation liability.

1026
00:59:40,559 --> 00:59:41,599
They're quite expensive.

1027
00:59:41,659 --> 00:59:46,359
Imagine if you upload this podcast
somewhere, two hours, um, it's

1028
00:59:46,359 --> 00:59:47,849
going to be expensive to host.

1029
00:59:48,294 --> 00:59:50,414
And their peer to peer could help.

1030
00:59:51,389 --> 00:59:53,919
That's why we broke Nostr when
we published my book on it.

1031
00:59:54,394 --> 00:59:55,294
Did you hear about this?

1032
00:59:55,484 --> 00:59:55,764
No?

1033
00:59:55,789 --> 00:59:59,169
think I told you breakfast yesterday,
like, so that's how we met Miljan.

1034
00:59:59,489 --> 01:00:03,869
We were at this fancy rooftop cocktail
party in Madeira, and he walks up to

1035
01:00:03,879 --> 01:00:05,539
me and is like, uh, you're Knut, right?

1036
01:00:05,939 --> 01:00:06,869
And I'm like, yeah.

1037
01:00:07,239 --> 01:00:08,919
Oh, you broke my Nostr client.

1038
01:00:09,469 --> 01:00:09,819
So it

1039
01:00:10,069 --> 01:00:11,689
turns out that, oh, did I?

1040
01:00:12,789 --> 01:00:14,729
Did I unlock an achievement
on the internet?

1041
01:00:14,739 --> 01:00:20,304
Like, because we decided to, uh, Publish
my entire first book, just copy the

1042
01:00:20,314 --> 01:00:24,704
text file and put it as a single post
on Nostr, because just because we could.

1043
01:00:25,634 --> 01:00:26,904
And apparently that broke

1044
01:00:26,994 --> 01:00:27,154
think

1045
01:00:27,154 --> 01:00:30,854
that even fits in a Nostr event,
like many relays limit the size

1046
01:00:30,854 --> 01:00:32,794
to 60 kilobytes or whatever.

1047
01:00:33,054 --> 01:00:37,784
But I think that was the problem that they
didn't, uh, before, before that happened.

1048
01:00:38,284 --> 01:00:39,124
Yeah, something like that.

1049
01:00:39,124 --> 01:00:40,459
The idea of

1050
01:00:40,459 --> 01:00:40,904
a

1051
01:00:40,984 --> 01:00:41,754
ask him about it.

1052
01:00:41,814 --> 01:00:42,144
Yeah.

1053
01:00:42,384 --> 01:00:43,034
Exactly.

1054
01:00:43,094 --> 01:00:49,604
He says there's a spec for a long form
note, but the whole idea was just to

1055
01:00:49,754 --> 01:00:51,274
post the whole damn thing so that it's

1056
01:00:51,824 --> 01:00:51,994
Yeah.

1057
01:00:52,179 --> 01:00:54,259
out there information, right?

1058
01:00:54,959 --> 01:00:55,619
But, But

1059
01:00:55,629 --> 01:00:57,719
yeah, I guess it didn't

1060
01:00:57,719 --> 01:00:58,219
scale.

1061
01:00:58,439 --> 01:01:01,979
Yeah, maybe it's a bit technical,
but I think Nostr Web of Trust

1062
01:01:01,999 --> 01:01:03,889
can help finding the content.

1063
01:01:03,889 --> 01:01:08,989
So when you address content by its
content hash, um, you don't have the

1064
01:01:09,019 --> 01:01:11,249
URL, the locator part in the network.

1065
01:01:11,289 --> 01:01:15,089
But I think Nostr, it's a bit
technical, but Nostr can help there.

1066
01:01:15,119 --> 01:01:19,669
You can like, um, find out where the
author keeps their media files and

1067
01:01:19,679 --> 01:01:21,189
locate it on the network that way.

1068
01:01:22,219 --> 01:01:26,939
Is there anything as far as that, sort
of, maybe relays or something else would,

1069
01:01:26,959 --> 01:01:32,139
would come to the rescue in terms of
being this sort of layer in the middle?

1070
01:01:32,179 --> 01:01:37,004
It's not, it's not YouTube,
but it's, it's something in the

1071
01:01:37,004 --> 01:01:39,764
middle where the videos can live.

1072
01:01:39,764 --> 01:01:41,724
And, but maybe they are, they
live in more than one place

1073
01:01:41,744 --> 01:01:43,814
because back to the redundancy.

1074
01:01:43,814 --> 01:01:45,424
I think that's, that's always the thing.

1075
01:01:45,424 --> 01:01:46,704
If you have it only on the edge.

1076
01:01:47,309 --> 01:01:51,489
Right, and it's not distributed, and
I mean literally distributed, in more

1077
01:01:51,489 --> 01:01:55,549
than one node, more than one edge
node, that node goes down, the content

1078
01:01:55,574 --> 01:02:01,024
Yeah, yeah, I imagine like if there's
a media file that is less popular

1079
01:02:01,224 --> 01:02:06,074
than it, um, that might be exist
only in a few places, then I guess

1080
01:02:06,204 --> 01:02:08,434
servers can be useful in that case.

1081
01:02:08,459 --> 01:02:10,149
Is this the reinvention of BitTorrent?

1082
01:02:11,070 --> 01:02:16,290
yeah, maybe we need a little bit
improved version of BitTorrent, like

1083
01:02:16,530 --> 01:02:20,990
BitTorrent works for popular files
like movies, but if you're gonna put

1084
01:02:20,990 --> 01:02:25,080
your whole file system on it, then
BitTorrent is not good for that.

1085
01:02:26,405 --> 01:02:27,769
Yeah,

1086
01:02:27,935 --> 01:02:31,995
interesting to see how this is going to
develop, I mean, I love that the ideas

1087
01:02:32,055 --> 01:02:36,395
are being discussed though, because
It would be an amazing solution to be

1088
01:02:36,395 --> 01:02:41,585
able to, to self, self sovereignly,
host content and, and keep data backed

1089
01:02:41,585 --> 01:02:45,975
up and, and all this, it just, the,
the, I think the skeptical parts that

1090
01:02:45,975 --> 01:02:48,885
we've had in discussions is first of
all this, first of all, the scaling,

1091
01:02:49,335 --> 01:02:54,495
does it actually work to, to run an US
relay in a, in a way that's economical.

1092
01:02:55,305 --> 01:02:55,545
Yeah.

1093
01:02:55,605 --> 01:02:59,155
So I think still some debate
about to what degree is it, is

1094
01:02:59,155 --> 01:03:00,865
it possible to, to, do that?

1095
01:03:00,865 --> 01:03:02,485
But the, but the other
thing for me is that just.

1096
01:03:02,905 --> 01:03:07,755
Uh, how does it work in practice
to, to completely take away

1097
01:03:07,785 --> 01:03:11,895
these central services that we've
started to rely upon, right?

1098
01:03:11,905 --> 01:03:15,735
And again, this, this comes
back to, this isn't a problem.

1099
01:03:16,415 --> 01:03:18,504
until it becomes a problem.

1100
01:03:18,585 --> 01:03:21,565
It's fine, the centralized services
all work until they decide that

1101
01:03:21,565 --> 01:03:25,795
you're not a person that they
want to do business with anymore.

1102
01:03:26,395 --> 01:03:28,575
And so distributing that
becomes the problem.

1103
01:03:28,605 --> 01:03:31,215
So these are still questions.

1104
01:03:31,275 --> 01:03:33,995
I don't know, no exact question
there, but yeah, any thoughts still?

1105
01:03:34,250 --> 01:03:38,580
I guess IPFS has been trying to tackle
some of these issues for a long time.

1106
01:03:39,910 --> 01:03:41,880
It's not simple, but I hope we're getting

1107
01:03:42,165 --> 01:03:43,515
What, what's IPFS?

1108
01:03:43,635 --> 01:03:43,815
Uh,

1109
01:03:43,930 --> 01:03:44,130
So

1110
01:03:44,900 --> 01:03:46,620
interplanetary file system.

1111
01:03:47,600 --> 01:03:53,240
It's basically a distributed network for
content addressed files and directories.

1112
01:03:53,952 --> 01:03:57,952
yeah, it's, it's sort of like the
David Goliath scenario with the state,

1113
01:03:58,022 --> 01:04:03,842
like, uh, the, the, uh, the smaller
protocols battling, battling the

1114
01:04:04,012 --> 01:04:07,122
conglomerates of, of Silicon Valley.

1115
01:04:08,047 --> 01:04:11,317
Yeah, I, again, I'm just, I'm just glad
that, that there's people out there

1116
01:04:11,377 --> 01:04:15,487
looking for the solutions to make this
so much more because, because it's great

1117
01:04:15,517 --> 01:04:20,097
that this is, that this is solving the
problem of text, just text communication.

1118
01:04:20,097 --> 01:04:21,405
The, the Twitter replacement.

1119
01:04:21,732 --> 01:04:21,902
and

1120
01:04:21,902 --> 01:04:22,555
social graph.

1121
01:04:23,742 --> 01:04:26,092
But just like, just like
people are unaware of the

1122
01:04:26,092 --> 01:04:28,752
problems of inflation, mostly.

1123
01:04:29,027 --> 01:04:33,737
And, uh, they are unaware of the
problems of, of, uh, data centralization,

1124
01:04:33,747 --> 01:04:37,137
like, uh, it's, it's, uh, most people
just don't care about this stuff.

1125
01:04:39,047 --> 01:04:40,037
No, apparently not.

1126
01:04:40,212 --> 01:04:44,517
And what about on the, the, the bitcoin
front, the sort of interconnection

1127
01:04:44,517 --> 01:04:46,707
of Noster and, and bitcoin?

1128
01:04:47,362 --> 01:04:52,242
Uh, I guess, what's the, what's the
role of, of Bitcoin in all this?

1129
01:04:52,632 --> 01:04:56,942
Yeah, well for some reason all of the
Nostr users seem to be bitcoiners.

1130
01:04:57,497 --> 01:05:02,957
Well, there's, there's normies
as well, but yeah, maybe it's the

1131
01:05:02,957 --> 01:05:04,447
similarity permissionlessness.

1132
01:05:05,737 --> 01:05:09,747
Um, also Bitcoin is, Lightning
is pretty much integrated with

1133
01:05:09,757 --> 01:05:12,297
all the popular Nostr clients.

1134
01:05:12,307 --> 01:05:18,617
So you can zap, you can tip for posts
with lightning and it's quite unique.

1135
01:05:18,637 --> 01:05:19,017
Really.

1136
01:05:19,547 --> 01:05:23,227
I don't think Twitter is ever going
to be able to implement something

1137
01:05:23,227 --> 01:05:25,517
like that because of KYC and whatever.

1138
01:05:26,617 --> 01:05:32,587
No, no, and, uh, yeah, so, uh, at least
use Nostr in parallel to whatever social

1139
01:05:32,597 --> 01:05:37,822
media account you're on, because, like,
uh, It's, um, it's hard to move from

1140
01:05:37,822 --> 01:05:41,822
one social media platform to another
because if you're a content creator,

1141
01:05:41,822 --> 01:05:46,072
because you have all your following
there, so it's a, the exodus can be

1142
01:05:46,252 --> 01:05:51,132
tough, but like the, the sooner you start
up your Nostr thing, the, the easier

1143
01:05:51,132 --> 01:05:57,542
the transition will be when, when you
eventually, when you're eventually forced

1144
01:05:57,572 --> 01:05:59,547
out of whatever platform you, you're on.

1145
01:05:59,947 --> 01:06:00,457
You're on.

1146
01:06:00,617 --> 01:06:04,147
And I hope we're going to have
better cross posting tools so you

1147
01:06:04,187 --> 01:06:08,367
can make a post and easily publish
it on all the relevant platforms.

1148
01:06:08,377 --> 01:06:08,727
Yeah.

1149
01:06:09,377 --> 01:06:11,277
Of course, Twitter doesn't want that.

1150
01:06:11,327 --> 01:06:11,607
They.

1151
01:06:11,902 --> 01:06:14,792
They don't want any integration
with others, they want to keep their

1152
01:06:14,792 --> 01:06:15,622
network, but

1153
01:06:15,672 --> 01:06:18,032
maybe we can work around
it one way or the other.

1154
01:06:18,087 --> 01:06:22,192
I heard an interesting theory about,
like, I had a conversation with

1155
01:06:22,192 --> 01:06:24,697
Giacomo about Nostr versus Twitter.

1156
01:06:25,172 --> 01:06:28,032
And it's like, uh, everyone's
saying that Nostr is so much

1157
01:06:28,042 --> 01:06:29,702
better because there's no drama.

1158
01:06:29,942 --> 01:06:31,772
It's like, everyone's friendly on Nostr.

1159
01:06:32,022 --> 01:06:35,492
And he was like, yeah, but that's
sort of why I'm on Twitter.

1160
01:06:36,692 --> 01:06:41,622
Because, like, someone's wrong on the
internet, and you immediately attack it.

1161
01:06:41,622 --> 01:06:44,782
So like, there is definitely
a different culture.

1162
01:06:45,282 --> 01:06:49,852
Actually, this is, this is an interesting,
um, uh, point here, the, the algorithms.

1163
01:06:50,102 --> 01:06:53,622
And so, uh, you, you were telling
us earlier that, uh, Iris actually

1164
01:06:53,622 --> 01:06:55,972
does have, have algorithms now.

1165
01:06:57,192 --> 01:07:03,462
algorithm, like, um, based on the
users you usually like, and the

1166
01:07:03,462 --> 01:07:08,632
people who have reacted or interacted
with the same posts that you.

1167
01:07:11,527 --> 01:07:16,117
I'll say my wishlist for Nostr,
just for the usability of it.

1168
01:07:16,117 --> 01:07:20,377
It doesn't have to be exactly the
Twitter clone thing, but first of

1169
01:07:20,377 --> 01:07:21,687
all, this algorithm sounds great.

1170
01:07:21,947 --> 01:07:27,627
I would like that when I'm scrolling
down, it can say, I've seen this

1171
01:07:27,627 --> 01:07:29,177
note, I don't want to see it

1172
01:07:29,337 --> 01:07:29,677
Yeah,

1173
01:07:29,717 --> 01:07:31,267
that's what it also does.

1174
01:07:31,417 --> 01:07:32,367
That's fantastic.

1175
01:07:32,387 --> 01:07:36,377
And then the second thing is
that, yeah, that it would refresh

1176
01:07:36,577 --> 01:07:38,562
periodically A little bit.

1177
01:07:39,092 --> 01:07:44,402
Because the biggest problem is the
exact latest queue is like, there's

1178
01:07:44,402 --> 01:07:46,532
just no organization to that none.

1179
01:07:47,102 --> 01:07:51,742
Uh, and the top posts of the day or
even the last four hours or hour or

1180
01:07:51,882 --> 01:07:54,687
something like that It's the same posts

1181
01:07:55,277 --> 01:07:58,137
until 24 hours passes again.

1182
01:07:58,747 --> 01:08:01,057
So just something that works
in the middle, I think would

1183
01:08:01,057 --> 01:08:02,917
be absolutely fantastic.

1184
01:08:02,917 --> 01:08:03,207
So

1185
01:08:03,267 --> 01:08:05,107
Yeah, that's, that's what I'm doing.

1186
01:08:05,157 --> 01:08:09,837
I'm usually updating it like once a
minute and it's also mixed in some of the

1187
01:08:09,837 --> 01:08:12,187
recent posts, so it stays interesting.

1188
01:08:12,547 --> 01:08:13,777
It's working pretty well for me,

1189
01:08:13,997 --> 01:08:14,397
I think.

1190
01:08:14,902 --> 01:08:17,642
Do you guys know what an algorithm is?

1191
01:08:19,887 --> 01:08:23,717
It's, it's when you have a result
that you want to get to, and you

1192
01:08:23,717 --> 01:08:27,047
write a mathematical formula that
you can repeat over and over again

1193
01:08:27,167 --> 01:08:30,467
to get to that point that you already
decided before you made the formula.

1194
01:08:32,447 --> 01:08:33,457
This is an actual thing.

1195
01:08:33,517 --> 01:08:34,847
It's not a, it's not a joke.

1196
01:08:34,947 --> 01:08:37,597
There's, there's an actual
thing called algorithm.

1197
01:08:37,657 --> 01:08:38,297
I hadn't heard of

1198
01:08:38,297 --> 01:08:38,907
this before,

1199
01:08:39,417 --> 01:08:39,707
I know.

1200
01:08:40,667 --> 01:08:41,967
You learn something new every day.

1201
01:08:42,167 --> 01:08:43,077
something new every day.

1202
01:08:43,887 --> 01:08:44,317
No, that's great.

1203
01:08:44,317 --> 01:08:45,867
I'll have to try, uh, try Iris more.

1204
01:08:45,867 --> 01:08:49,307
I, I'd used Iris maybe six, eight
months ago, a little bit more.

1205
01:08:49,307 --> 01:08:51,477
I think when it changed
interfaces to snort, I sort of.

1206
01:08:51,937 --> 01:08:55,667
Got confused and, uh, I think it
actually, it didn't work for a

1207
01:08:55,667 --> 01:08:57,887
while, the, the, the, the caching.

1208
01:08:57,917 --> 01:09:00,647
I had to control F5 and
then, oh, it works now.

1209
01:09:00,887 --> 01:09:01,187
Yeah.

1210
01:09:01,277 --> 01:09:02,617
We need to make it faster.

1211
01:09:02,647 --> 01:09:07,757
It has a great, like a local, local relay,
so it stores a lot of stuff locally.

1212
01:09:08,237 --> 01:09:10,107
And it's like a peer to peer ready.

1213
01:09:10,147 --> 01:09:13,787
We can, I've been experimenting
on peer to peer already, so,

1214
01:09:14,947 --> 01:09:15,517
Very cool.

1215
01:09:15,767 --> 01:09:17,047
we just need to make it faster.

1216
01:09:17,567 --> 01:09:21,487
The, the competition between clients
is, is fantastic and, and it seems like

1217
01:09:21,487 --> 01:09:22,957
it's a, it's a friendly competition.

1218
01:09:22,967 --> 01:09:27,777
Everyone is learning from each other and,
uh, Primal, Primal has somewhat taken

1219
01:09:27,777 --> 01:09:29,337
the consciousness, uh, a little bit.

1220
01:09:29,337 --> 01:09:32,992
It's sort of the one that a lot of
people are, uh, You know, saying

1221
01:09:32,992 --> 01:09:35,632
they're, they're using these days,
but I think it's, I think it's great

1222
01:09:35,632 --> 01:09:37,152
that you can use different clients

1223
01:09:37,337 --> 01:09:37,493
Yeah.

1224
01:09:37,577 --> 01:09:38,197
It's so good

1225
01:09:38,197 --> 01:09:38,997
for the users.

1226
01:09:39,167 --> 01:09:41,747
I think that's one of the reasons
why Nostr will win because

1227
01:09:41,957 --> 01:09:45,267
there's the constant battle
between clients, evolution.

1228
01:09:45,567 --> 01:09:50,727
Yeah, we have, uh, been thinking a lot
about this in competition in Bitcoin

1229
01:09:50,987 --> 01:09:56,677
companies specifically, and how, how,
like in praxeology that differentiates

1230
01:09:56,707 --> 01:10:00,387
between biological competition
and catalytic competition, right?

1231
01:10:00,627 --> 01:10:03,417
Where, where biological
competition is the fang and claw.

1232
01:10:03,812 --> 01:10:07,812
A battle of nature where the,
the, the strongest survive as

1233
01:10:07,812 --> 01:10:09,272
the law of the jungle, basically.

1234
01:10:09,632 --> 01:10:13,892
And catalytic competition are free
markets, totally free markets, so

1235
01:10:14,232 --> 01:10:21,282
where, where both parties don't
engage in the interaction unless

1236
01:10:21,312 --> 01:10:24,222
they both think they have something
to win from the interaction.

1237
01:10:24,222 --> 01:10:27,502
So it's not a zero sum game,
it's better for everyone, always.

1238
01:10:27,782 --> 01:10:32,492
And what we're living in today is like
sort of in between Fang and Claw and

1239
01:10:32,512 --> 01:10:36,692
Catalactic because there's interventionism
everywhere and there's inflation and

1240
01:10:36,692 --> 01:10:41,652
stuff, which you could categorize as more
Law of the Jungle stuff, uh, winner take

1241
01:10:41,652 --> 01:10:43,792
all stuff than actual free market stuff.

1242
01:10:44,142 --> 01:10:47,827
But when you think about it on a
Bitcoin standard, It's even weirder

1243
01:10:47,827 --> 01:10:53,167
than, it's even more powerful than,
uh, than, than the normal free market,

1244
01:10:53,197 --> 01:10:59,182
because at least in the adoption phase,
um, pre hyperbitcoinization, because

1245
01:10:59,182 --> 01:11:06,027
Bitcoiners are incentivized to, uh, and
Bitcoin companies are incentivized to

1246
01:11:06,037 --> 01:11:10,017
help one another with whatever they're
doing, because the success of the

1247
01:11:10,017 --> 01:11:12,117
Bitcoiner is the success of Bitcoin.

1248
01:11:12,647 --> 01:11:15,757
So, so, so we're like, we're, we're there.

1249
01:11:15,757 --> 01:11:19,957
There's, there's no, uh, uh, reason
to even compete, uh, if you're.

1250
01:11:20,862 --> 01:11:24,592
Hardware wallet providers, for
instance, or conference organizers,

1251
01:11:24,952 --> 01:11:31,862
there's like this weird, uh, synergy
and, uh, culture of collaboration.

1252
01:11:31,892 --> 01:11:33,032
And we see it everywhere.

1253
01:11:33,062 --> 01:11:35,032
Like we see these effects more and more.

1254
01:11:35,032 --> 01:11:39,982
And I think like Nostr is, is very
similar and open source development in

1255
01:11:39,982 --> 01:11:45,922
general, that people want to, want to
see the other, the other guys succeed.

1256
01:11:46,527 --> 01:11:48,297
Yeah, it's true.

1257
01:11:48,512 --> 01:11:49,802
There's no backstabbing,

1258
01:11:50,387 --> 01:11:50,737
Yeah.

1259
01:11:50,972 --> 01:11:52,522
in the same way as in Fiatland.

1260
01:11:52,932 --> 01:11:53,172
Yeah.

1261
01:11:53,172 --> 01:11:55,852
It's, it's great to see maybe,
maybe we can, um, yeah, touch

1262
01:11:55,852 --> 01:11:59,342
on our lovely hosts here, the
reason we're all in the same room.

1263
01:11:59,342 --> 01:12:02,892
Although, although, yeah, this is, this
is one of the cases where we could have

1264
01:12:02,892 --> 01:12:07,152
actually done this from, uh, from, you
know, another location a lot more easily.

1265
01:12:07,352 --> 01:12:11,002
Knut would have to come to Finland,
but, uh, you know, maybe next time

1266
01:12:11,002 --> 01:12:14,232
we'll, we'll, uh, do it from the, the
oldie library or something like that.

1267
01:12:14,305 --> 01:12:14,952
Uh, one of the rooms

1268
01:12:15,022 --> 01:12:15,922
Yeah, yeah, yeah, we'll see.

1269
01:12:15,922 --> 01:12:16,052
Yeah,

1270
01:12:16,432 --> 01:12:16,452
yeah,

1271
01:12:16,577 --> 01:12:17,397
a sauna rip, yeah.

1272
01:12:17,522 --> 01:12:18,332
No, from Riga!

1273
01:12:19,067 --> 01:12:19,307
Well,

1274
01:12:19,307 --> 01:12:20,697
yeah, I guess so, I guess so.

1275
01:12:20,827 --> 01:12:26,467
And it occurred to me, because we also
have the heavy metal in common, and so

1276
01:12:26,837 --> 01:12:30,717
this is another case where we could do a
heavy metal only episode, except you're

1277
01:12:30,737 --> 01:12:34,967
way more interesting than just to do a
heavy metal episode, so we have to talk

1278
01:12:34,977 --> 01:12:36,077
about all the other things as well.

1279
01:12:36,712 --> 01:12:39,522
Maybe next time we try that we
start with the heavy metal stuff

1280
01:12:39,752 --> 01:12:41,212
What's your favorite metal band?

1281
01:12:42,026 --> 01:12:46,026
Uh, Children of Bodom is why I
started playing guitar as a teenager.

1282
01:12:46,093 --> 01:12:47,496
Nightwish is still

1283
01:12:47,571 --> 01:12:47,771
of Bonn.

1284
01:12:48,686 --> 01:12:48,851
And

1285
01:12:48,956 --> 01:12:51,766
will you participate in the
Rock A Moto here tomorrow night?

1286
01:12:52,506 --> 01:12:55,316
Um, sounds very interesting.

1287
01:12:55,386 --> 01:12:56,106
Excellent.

1288
01:12:56,381 --> 01:12:59,111
we should, uh, maybe we
should, uh, yeah, get,

1289
01:12:59,161 --> 01:12:59,961
Figure out some finish,

1290
01:13:00,101 --> 01:13:00,561
some finish

1291
01:13:00,591 --> 01:13:01,051
metal for

1292
01:13:01,076 --> 01:13:05,966
the Yeah, shout out to Maz and
Lightning Ventures for organizing that.

1293
01:13:06,426 --> 01:13:06,896
And

1294
01:13:06,946 --> 01:13:08,526
play guitar or drums there?

1295
01:13:08,816 --> 01:13:09,726
Yes, you can.

1296
01:13:10,246 --> 01:13:12,136
Yes, absolutely.

1297
01:13:12,296 --> 01:13:13,146
Absolutely.

1298
01:13:13,631 --> 01:13:14,681
Fantastic.

1299
01:13:15,541 --> 01:13:15,751
But.

1300
01:13:16,596 --> 01:13:21,776
So, so Anywhere you want to send our
listeners any, any, like, before we

1301
01:13:21,776 --> 01:13:23,496
wrap this up, is there anything else?

1302
01:13:23,496 --> 01:13:27,306
I think we're approaching
a good stopping point here.

1303
01:13:27,861 --> 01:13:30,321
Yeah, yeah, yeah, and the only
other thing I wanted to just, just

1304
01:13:30,641 --> 01:13:31,861
pick your brain on a little bit.

1305
01:13:31,871 --> 01:13:34,501
How are you finding,
uh, Prague, BTC Prague?

1306
01:13:35,211 --> 01:13:36,211
It's wonderful.

1307
01:13:36,241 --> 01:13:40,341
Um, such optimism and positive energy.

1308
01:13:40,651 --> 01:13:41,641
The venue is great.

1309
01:13:41,701 --> 01:13:46,661
Prague has become one of my favorite
cities, if not the most favorite city.

1310
01:13:47,371 --> 01:13:50,681
Beautiful architecture,
nice, um, relaxed vibe.

1311
01:13:51,676 --> 01:13:53,146
Yeah, totally agree.

1312
01:13:53,301 --> 01:13:53,891
Totally agree.

1313
01:13:54,561 --> 01:13:55,111
Fantastic.

1314
01:13:55,111 --> 01:13:57,001
So right, right back to Knut's question.

1315
01:13:57,351 --> 01:13:59,391
Any, that, that was,
that was, that was it.

1316
01:13:59,421 --> 01:14:01,141
Martin and Matthias,
hopefully you liked that.

1317
01:14:01,401 --> 01:14:01,721
Um,

1318
01:14:02,595 --> 01:14:06,195
Well, um, get on Nostr
if you're not already.

1319
01:14:06,395 --> 01:14:08,465
Maybe you can start at nostr.

1320
01:14:08,525 --> 01:14:08,795
com.

1321
01:14:09,740 --> 01:14:13,350
Um, you can find Iris and me on iris.

1322
01:14:13,580 --> 01:14:15,450
to slash Sirius.

1323
01:14:16,390 --> 01:14:17,320
I hope it's gonna work.

1324
01:14:19,380 --> 01:14:20,190
Are you serious?

1325
01:14:20,860 --> 01:14:21,270
Yes.

1326
01:14:21,500 --> 01:14:22,010
Business.

1327
01:14:23,650 --> 01:14:25,820
I actually have Sirius Business Ltd.

1328
01:14:27,170 --> 01:14:27,840
Fantastic.

1329
01:14:28,130 --> 01:14:32,110
Marty, so much for coming on and
enjoy the rest of the conference.

1330
01:14:32,760 --> 01:14:33,250
Likewise.

1331
01:14:33,395 --> 01:14:33,805
thanks Martin.

1332
01:14:34,345 --> 01:14:34,675
Yes.

1333
01:14:35,035 --> 01:14:36,425
This has been the Freedom Footprint Show.

1334
01:14:36,605 --> 01:14:37,415
Thanks for listening.

1335
01:14:37,810 --> 01:14:38,330
Bye bye.