FFS082 - Luke Broyles Part 2

[00:00:00]

Intro

Luke Broyles: that's the first thing to emphasize, is take self custody of the coins, you remove the single point of failure of the state, you remove the single point of failure of, the exchange itself, the counterparty risk, and you remove the single point of failure of A thief withdrawing your coins, right? It's like, those are three huge risks. an 80 percent loss in fiat terms recovered in 18 months is nothing in comparison to a hundred percent loss permanently the underlying, right? It's too. Very different kinds of risk, and unfortunately, we're bad at quantifying that second one because there's no warning to it, right?

Luke: Welcome back to the Freedom Footprint show, the Bitcoin philosophy show with Knut Svanholm and me, Luke the Pseudo Finn. And we're here today with Luke Broyles, who we spoke to way back when he first got on the scene. And so we're looking forward to an update from him.

Check in, see how he's doing. The big news that we know about is that he has joined the Bitcoin adviser. And so we're going to hear all about that and, uh, hopefully a lot more. So Luke, welcome back to the Freedom Footprint Show.

Luke Broyles: you for having me. This is a [00:01:00] blast. We were just talking before we started recording about how the last 11, 12 months or whatever has flown by, so happy to be back.

Knut: Yeah, it's been a weird year for you, I assume, uh, you, you, uh, sort of came from, from out of nowhere and took the world by, the Bitcoin world by storm, and now it's a year later, and, uh, you keep on, keep on storming.

Luke Broyles: Thank you. Doing my best.

Luke and the Bitcoin Adviser

Knut: Um, . So what, what does a Bitcoin adviser do?

Luke Broyles: Yeah, that's a great question. Yeah. Uh, yeah. So as far as the question we're talking about today, I think Bitcoin adviser stuff's really important. I'm glad you guys want to have me on and talk about it because Um, yes, it's about the business.

Yes, it's about promoting the business, but you know, as you guys know, and hopefully people watching this understand is that Bitcoin custody is incredibly important. And as much as people in Bitcoin talk about it, I think it's still underappreciated. So, um, yeah, so, so [00:02:00] those, those Dunworths, um, uh, Peter, Michael, um, Peter reached out to me in February of 2023.

So actually about the time we did our first podcast together, us three here. Uh, you know, within those, that couple of week timeframe, whatever, Peter, uh, already reached out to me at that point, the Bitcoin adviser, um, was, uh, not, they weren't pushing Bitcoin adviser as hard as they are now, but basically the long story short is that Peter over the last eight years.

So since 2015, 2016, uh, or so has been doing this company, uh, network advisers and Bitcoin advisers, uh, you know, been in the family office space for a couple of decades. And so he started this company. And in the last year or so, at least what he's told me, and I agree with him, is that the last year, um, really the last 12 months, is where Multisig Letter of Custody is starting to shine.

for me on my end, I see that too, obviously not as much as he does, but that's [00:03:00] why they're really starting to ramp it up. And so I was very fortunate to be one of the first, that was invited to be a part of the team, and These last six, eight months, whenever it's been, um, you know, probably longer by the time people are watching this, uh, it's been a whirlwind.

And to your question of what we do, I don't really know. My family asks me, Luke, what do you do? And I'm like, I don't know. I go to Zoom and I do emails with my internet friends. And we talked about bitcoin. I mean, that's pretty much it. It's just talking to people, right? It's emails, phone calls, video calls, you know, a lot of networking, a lot of helping people.

Basically, what we do is we handhold people through the process of setting up their vaults in their custody and securing their bitcoins. So it's really enjoyable because it's So focused on people and solving really big problems in, you know, in custody and ultimately helping people have peace of mind.

So, [00:04:00] yeah, that, that's pretty much what it consists of. And that's the story there. And it's a blast.

Knut: Yeah, from what I know, there's been quite a bit of development in the multisig area with like, there, you can do more with them now, right? With the, like, one of the keys being a master key and there being like, key Key Merkle trees or whatever you call them, so, so it's more programmable. I, I think I saw something in Miami with someone had a, something that looked like the, the programming language for kids, you know, Scratch, but with the Bitcoin multisig stuff, so you could do if and then, and, or, uh, circuits with multisig stuff, uh, which looked really interesting.

Do you know anything about that?

Luke Broyles: I'm not sure referring to specifically, but, um, yeah, there's a lot of development. Um, in the space, a lot of new products. So, um, yeah, that's pretty exciting.

Knut: Yeah, have you heard anything about that, Luke?

Luke: Yeah, the, the, the multisig stuff intrigues me. I mean, [00:05:00] as far as we've, we've heard about it, we actually, we spoke to Peter before the Bitcoin adviser. came up. But there was a little bit, we dug into this stuff a little bit for sure. Uh, but so, so I think it's, it's great to, to check in now after, yeah, I think you are actually the, the first official Bitcoin adviser we've had on since the, since it launched.

so yeah, the, I, I really like the, the space of this multisig, uh, these multisig services. There's a whole bunch, right? Like Unchained, Nunchuck, others that. Won't be named or that I can't remember, but like, I guess, I guess the idea, right, is that it, it helps users key manage without having to, to manage all of their keys, but still get the benefits of multi sig, right?

Isn't that the idea? And then, and then you guys come in to, to walk users through the process and, and also help to, to safeguard the multi sig, right? That's the idea?

Luke Broyles: Yeah. Yeah. [00:06:00] Correct. So, you know, I, again, I think it's really important for people, especially those that are trying to take your Bitcoin custody the next step or wanting to buy more Bitcoin, take your allocation the next step, like, I think it's super important because most people, when they look at Bitcoin, they're scared about Bitcoin, volatility, let's say, and that's, uh, comparatively, that's a very small risk in, in my view, uh, compared to the custody risk, right?

So if we want to think of, Okay. Bitcoin from risk allocators perspective, you know, let's say we have this much risk that is due to Bitcoin volatility, right? What if Bitcoin crashes? 50, 70, 80 percent and doesn't recover in price for two years, right? You know, what about the cash flows or whatever, right?

That might be like this much risk, right? But then the vast majority of risk, at least in my view and Peter's view, and really what I think should be everyone's view, the vast majority of risk is actually custody, right? And unfortunately that's human beings as, you know, and this is an insult to anyone, but it's true for me too, um, you know, Human means we have a hard time [00:07:00] adjusting risk tolerances.

We have a hard time, um, properly accounting for that risk. And, uh, unfortunately I think most Bitcoiners don't realize the risk, right? We all like to focus on fiat price and the volatility of fiat price, right? Like we're recording this Bitcoin's down 5%, uh, you know, the last 48 hours or whatever. I mean, you know, so it's always going up and down.

Well, it's up again, right?

Knut: up at 44.

Luke Broyles: There we go, right? Proving my point. You know, we always focus on the fiat price. Uh, you know, right now Bitcoin's at 44, 000. Yesterday it was down to 40K after crashing. But, you know, every day it goes up, down a few percent. So this is the risk we think of. But people aren't thinking about that risk, right?

And so, you know, Luke, to your point, that is the basic idea, correct? Is that the beauty of Bitcoin is that it removes the single pointed failure from base layer currency itself, right? So, you know, the Federal Reserve is the single pointed failure for the U. S. dollar, right? And every time we want to [00:08:00] Debase to dollar, bail out banks, or pass some sort of stimulus, war, whatever.

We just exploit that single point of failure, right? That's the double spend problem. And so that's the exciting thing with bitcoin is that it solves that single point of failure, but now building on top of that, the new question has to be kind of for is If the money itself has solved for the single point of failure, how are you going to solve for single point of failure in your custody model, right?

And so funny enough, this is one of the reasons, you know, I'll, I'll first differentiate between exchanges and then self custody. Obviously with exchanges, as we all know, And people get tired of me for shouting, uh, as you guys, I'm sure here too, from, from all the, um, critics is, you know, don't keep your Bitcoin on exchanges, right?

Get your Bitcoin off exchanges. If you have Bitcoin exchanges, you don't really own Bitcoin at your extreme risk, right? And this is precisely why, right? If you, you know, the Bitcoin itself doesn't have a single point of failure, but if you're trusting, Coinbase Bitcoin, or ETF Bitcoin, or FTX [00:09:00] Bitcoin, or BlockFi Bitcoin, you know, you have a new single point of failure that is the counterparty risk of said exchange.

And additionally, you also have a single point of failure of a security breach to that counterparty risk too. And this is something I think most people don't factor in, but if you have, let's say a Coinbase or Binance account, even if That exchange survives for the next 10 years, let's say. I mean, unfortunately, you know, I do a lot of these calls and unfortunately a decent number of people, you know, have some sort of, you know, have their identity stolen or emails hacked or password, you know, people, not to be too blunt, but typically the people that have their Bitcoin on exchanges, unfortunately, are typically the people that don't have their account.

Security particularly down solid. Um, and so unfortunately that happens, um, painfully frequently where someone gets someone's, you know, some, the furriest person gets someone's, um, exchange info and they just drain their account, they drain their exchange, right? So, there are multiple single points of failure.

You know, additionally, obviously, then you have the nation state. [00:10:00] That said exchange isn't right. You have the CZ, you know, CZ, you know, whatever the 4 billion, some crazy number lawsuit for Binance recently, you know, with CZ, the guy who at one point was like free from, you know, government agents running around or whatever, but, you know, point is that that's the difference between.

Non custodial Bitcoin, Bitcoin, obviously, hopefully everyone watching this and everyone that's a fan of yours, understands that, but it is disturbing that there's a lot of people that don't get that right, which I guess shouldn't be a surprise because perpetually in Bitcoin with an exponential curve, there's perpetually A large percentage of people that are very new, as in the last 6 to 18 months, you know, so for a lot of people that is a new message, but, you know, that's, that's the first thing to emphasize, I guess, is take self custody of the coins, you remove the single point of failure of the state, you remove the single point of failure of, uh, of the exchange itself, the counterparty risk, and you remove the single point of failure of the state.

A thief withdrawing your coins, right? It's like, those are three huge risks. [00:11:00] You know, again, an 80 percent loss in fiat terms recovered in 18 months is nothing in comparison to a hundred percent loss permanently of the underlying, right? It's too. Very different kinds of risk, and unfortunately, we're bad at quantifying that second one because there's no warning to it, right?

With fiat price, you see it every 12 hours or every 30 minutes when you refresh your phone. But we don't think about a thief breaking into our Binance or Coinbase account until it's already happened. And we don't think about an FTX collapse until it's already happened, right? I mean, you know, I wasn't on YouTube or Twitter at the time warning people about FTX publicly, but I was on various, you know, Uh, uh, discords, channels, and, and, you know, sub discussions elsewhere on the internet.

And I was warning people about FTX. Before it went under and, you know, people said it was crazy because, you know, I don't know what your experience is, but I remember with the FTX stuff, they're like, Luke, stop being so paranoid. Stop [00:12:00] being a fear monger. Stop spreading FUD. You know, you know, people like you are the problem, blah, blah, blah.

Like stop, you know, putting a whole dampen on the industry, quote unquote, whatever the heck that means. You know, cause it's like, oh, FTX is regulated as the second largest exchange. It's safe. It's fine. And it's funny. It's funny because. You know, I'm bullish because of the Bitcoin ETF, but in many ways, I think it's the same way.

Right? I mean, even if 90 percent of the Bitcoin ETFs survive the next 20 years, like, I don't want to take a 10 percent chance. of my generational wealth disappearing, right? And so it's like, obviously I'm bullish on the Bitcoin ETF. You know, when we're recording this, if ETF has not been approved yet, maybe it will be, maybe it won't be by the time people are watching this.

whatever the case, whether it is or isn't, it's irrelevant. When it is approved, you know, or when it is mainstream. You know, reality is in my view, I don't think even that's tolerable, even though it's the best form of paper Bitcoin, quote, unquote, you know, it's just a bitter reality that there's decades of [00:13:00] history of ETFs, you know, for gold, silver, and other commodities being manipulated.

again, FTX was the tightest with the SEC and the regulators, and that didn't turn out particularly well. And it was. Astonishingly, uh, bad because, you know, they had like no Bitcoin, right? It wasn't a minor insolvency. It was like complete total debauchery. Um, so, you know, I, I guess that's kind of my perspective there, right?

Is that I, I don't know what your opinions would be, but my opinion is that upcoming cycles, uh, the, the boom busts of upcoming cycles in large part, I think will be from the Trojan horse. That is the Bitcoin ETF. the incoming liquidity and demand for Bitcoin via the ETF, more traditional finance means.

And then of course, obviously portion of those will be rug pulled maybe partially, maybe entirely, maybe all of them rug pulled, you know, I don't know, but to me, it's basically like a roulette, right? And even if the odds are 90 percent in your favor with the ETFs and these paper Bitcoins, it's like to me, it's just not [00:14:00] justifiable.

And so anyway, all that to say is with that said, then the question is. If you understand Bitcoin, single pointed failure for the currency, and if you understand don't keep it on exchange because that's a single pointed failure for custody, then the question is, okay, counterparty risk is not excusable from a capital allocation perspective.

So now, how do we self custody in the safest way possible? And that's where collateral custody multisig comes in. Basically, what we're trying to do Is we're trying to be an easy onboarding route for new Bitcoiners as well as hardcore Bitcoiners like us, like, you know, basically diverting demand away from paper Bitcoin to real Bitcoin, um, with very, very, uh, reasonable value proposition.

So, yeah, that's the idea.

Knut: Yeah, uh, couldn't agree more. I mean, another way to say risk management is just responsibility. They're, they're two sides of the same coin. I mean, if, if I look back at my past when I was the captain of a boat, uh, for instance, [00:15:00] then, uh, That's risk management. That's all it is. Like, you're taking responsibility for this thing, for taking it from place A to place B, uh, or port A to port B, and everything that happens in between, you have to take different kinds of risks into account, and, uh, account for them all, and weigh them against one another, what's more risky and what's less risky, and I think this, not your keys, not your coins, goes so much deeper than people understand, so, so all this, This ETF stuff and all the paper Bitcoin stuff, this is transitory.

This is between now and hyperbitcoinization. It's a phase. It's true that it will attract a ton of normal money, quote unquote normal money to Bitcoin. But at the same time, it's, it's, it's sort of puts Bitcoin in the spotlight. And, uh, Bitcoin will steal the show because , because Bitcoin 200 x-ing now from 50 K dollars to, to a million, it [00:16:00] is cer certainly gonna raise some eyebrows.

Luke Broyles: million.

Knut: Uh, uh, 10 million. Yeah. Yeah. 2000 x then. Or, uh, am I doing the maths wrong again, Luke? Yeah, I am, right, so I'm 1 0

Luke Broyles: is 10 million. A 2000x

Knut: yeah, it's 10 million, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, so 20x would be 1 million, and the 200x would be 10 million, um, and regardless of which one it is, it's going to attract a lot of eyes, uh, and Here's a fun thing to think about.

What does that imply? What does it mean for your average bitcoiner? What will happen to Like, it has happened before, but on a much smaller scale. It's one thing to go from, you know, a hundred to a thousand dollars, or 200 to 17, 000, but going from 50, 000 to 10, 000, 000 is a different story altogether.

Like, every time this happens, it's on an order of magnitude, the network is [00:17:00] an order of magnitude larger, right? I guess that's a fun topic to explore.

What Happens After Hyperbitcoinization

Knut: What happens the next time around? Like, say, instead of Bitcoin, let's Pick a low number, say that Bitcoin is at 1 million dollars a coin. what does that mean for Bitcoin oriented politicians?

What does it mean for hardware wallet manufacturers? What does it mean for the exchanges? I know they're running out of coins already. Um, the satsqueeze is real. I mean What's your view on this?

Luke Broyles: Yeah, I think, well, you mentioned the politicians to start with that, I think the horse and locomotive metaphor, I probably said on your show before, but, uh, to give us, well, actually, maybe I didn't, but anyway, to give a different take on that, you know, typically when I talk about the horse and locomotive metaphor, it's about like, you can't understand Cisco in the system, right?

It's very much like the Jeff Booth idea, right? But I think. I think the big wave for Bitcoin adoption after, you know, ETF and traditional finance, you know, kind of embraces it, you know, [00:18:00] for, for a little while before they get rug pulled from it once or twice. Uh, I, I really think it's the electric grid, right?

I mean, the, just the stories, you know, I, I talked to. some of the guys plugging in Bitcoin, you know, to flare methane. I've talked to, um, um, Erik over, um, you know, doing incredible work over in Africa with, with the small projects there. And it's just like, I look at that. And in the same way, the Bitcoin ETF is kind of like the Bitcoin Trojan horse for Wall Street adopting Bitcoin.

I think Bitcoin or the, the, the implications of Bitcoin on the electric grid and power generation is like the Trojan horse for nation states. Right. Uh, you know, and it's actually the main reason I think a nation state attack on Bitcoin in, in a couple of years, I think it's going to be pretty low.

Probably it's just my guess, but I think that's going to be because of the integration of it into the grid. Right. So I think. I think that is lost on people. You know, most people are still thinking of it as money or number go up stuff, but they're not really thinking about it from that perspective. [00:19:00] Right.

It's like looking at the locomotive. And saying, Oh, wow. I finally understand the locomotive. It's going to be a big deal compared to the horse because, you know, it's, you can go 30 miles, uh, you know, faster. Right. But they're completely missing that. No, there's, it's all the locomotives. That's true, but it's also a big deal because now you can move 50 times the goods for, you know, a third of the cost or whatever.

Right. Or now you can move a bunch of cannons and, and men in uniform. A lot faster than the front lines, right? In large part, that's why, here in the United States, where I am, you know, it's a huge part of why the North won the Civil War over, over the Confederacy, over the South, right? Obviously, there's a lot of factors there, but one of the main ones is that the North had much better manufacturing and much better locomotives, right?

We could move men to the front lines, uh, a lot faster than the South, right? And so I think, In the same way that the locomotive, people resist it at first, but then they realize, you know, if we don't build this train thing of, you know, I don't get [00:20:00] it, but if we don't spend a bunch of money on it really quickly, um, our enemies are going to, and they're going to dominate us.

And we're going to no longer have the option to build a locomotive because we won't exist as a nation state. Right. And so. as much as, you know, both you and I and probably many people watching are not, in, uh, huge fans of the state, you know, I, I think that as a reality that it's a transition point, right?

And I think that, you know, states and large corporations will adopt it and integrate into the electric grid. If it makes their cash flows better, if it reduces expenses, if it improves, therefore, their share price, stock price, you know, gets their CEOs or whomever, uh, you know, more benefits, gets the, gets the politicians, their, their districts, more jobs.

I mean, I think they're going to be in favor of that for their electric grids. And then I think it's going to be a kind of a new form of, you know, space race essentially, except into the digital world. So, you know, I mean a million dollar Bitcoin, that's only a 20 X, right? Um, from here, I mean, the ETFs.

Potentially [00:21:00] alone, theoretically could push Bitcoin to a million dollars. And then people forget about like when I'm saying the electric grid, it's like that, you know, like, don't even think about that until a million dollar Bitcoin. And then once it's a million dollar Bitcoin, the whole integration to the electric grid thing, that's a huge deal for number go up, right?

Because that's more and more energy backing it. That's more and more money printed to subsidize said as much as I'm against printing money, like that's just game theory, what they will do, right? Like. If we have a slightly, we could tolerate a slightly higher inflation rate from a policy perspective.

Again, not that I support it, but I think nation states will realize, you know, we can tolerate a slightly higher inflation rate to raise more capital, you know, deploy more printed dollars and have more debt and use that printed fiat money, you know, scam money, political currency. To support a Bitcoin infrastructure.

That's, kind of like the Michael Saylor strategy, right? You know, basically make our stock weaker, but ultimately the Bitcoin we're backing that with, you know, kind of. Mix up for that, right? And so [00:22:00] that, that's kind of the infinite money loop, right? Instead of Saylor buying 5 over the course of three years, you know, what if you have three different nation states each deploying 5 billion a week, right?

Into Bitcoin and Bitcoin infrastructure, right? that might sound like a lot of money to people listening, but hey, if you can make 5 billion out of nothing, I mean, you know, and you're a politician that's Looking to preserve your own self interest, I mean, in the same way that, yeah, anyway, that's just my thought of what that next step looks like.

Politicization of Bitcoin

Knut: I, I know that there's a, there's a bit of a dilemma here with, um, pro Bitcoin, so quote unquote pro Bitcoin politicians because, uh, if, if a pro Bitcoin politician should win in every country, then that's sort of the guy who decides what Bitcoin is, , and so bitcoin sorts. Sort of needs to be somewhat illegal or somewhat shady and somewhat, because otherwise it's not the separation of [00:23:00] money and state, is it?

It's just more of the same. So yeah, you may have a state that is better than the state right now. But it's still someone telling you that, uh, I'm going to allow you to run your node. Like, fuck you. Like, that's the whole point of the node is to not be, not have to give a crap about allowance being allowed this or being allowed that.

That's the whole point of the network in the first place. And I think there's some, there's really something deep to that, that it needs to be that way, it needs to be this rebellious thing in order for it to ever separate anything from anything, because you can't, uh, you can't have both, really.

Luke Broyles: Yeah, right, I agree with that. I mean, like Bitcoin doesn't need politicians, right? I mean, shoot, with the China ban in mid 2021, you know, they banned, what was it, roughly, uh, 30 percent of, uh, Bitcoin's, you know, hash rate, basically, you know, the huge crashing hash rate, the biggest one in the last five [00:24:00] years, right?

Network recovered in like four months, which is remarkable, by the way, but it's like, I think that proves your point, right? Is that Bitcoin doesn't need these politicians and, you know, It's often one of the

Knut: that's an example of, of politicians that were against Bitcoin. But I'm worried about the pro

Luke Broyles: yes, yes,

Knut: Like, there's a, it's a different attack vector, uh, but there is a risk there too. I mean, it's, it's sort of, sort of ties into this, uh, uh, spam debate now with the, uh, the, uh, Ordinals and, uh, all this.

Crap that is, like, people paying to clog up the blockchain. The problem seems to be solved for the moment. I mean, the fees are down again. I guess they're gonna run out of money, but, but, there are, like, it's, it's anti fragile, but it's also very delicate. Like, it relies on Bitcoiners being, doing the work and, [00:25:00] and being vigilant and staying not being passive, uh, in defending it, and, and keeping it real, to use an ology term.

Luke Broyles: yeah, no, I, I just want to say I agree with that, you know, that I think the more clickable or the more commonly understood attack vector are politicians negative towards Bitcoin, you know, but I agree with you, I think politicians positive towards Bitcoin can be a threat as well, right? I think I, for me, I take peace of mind, though, knowing that a politician opting out, a person in politics opting out a political currency and opting towards a political currency, though, even if they increase their influence within Bitcoin, you know, by being a voice, quote unquote, in the space or having, you know, a following, you know, I think net net, it actually gives them a following.

Less kinetic and forceful power over people because they're abandoning, you know, the political sense, right? So like, you know, Bukele, I [00:26:00] think is probably the prime example of this, right? I'm generally, you know, a fan of Bukele, right? But at the same time, that doesn't mean that I support everything he's done.

And that doesn't mean that I think he's infallible and, you know, clearly the thing can change, right? I mean, I've never met Bukele, but, you know, I've spent some time with, um, um, Max Keiser and Stacey, you know, where they talked about him a lot, obviously. And, you know, that's one thing to think about is that, comparing him to the other politicians of Latin America, it's like, arguably he's more powerful than the other politicians of Latin America because his approval ratings are just so crazy high and, you know, people love him, you know, and perhaps to a dangerous degree, right?

This is the attack vector you're talking about. I, I guess I kind of forced myself to be the optimist in that, you know, the president of Venezuela, has like total control of dictatorship over the country because they control the money. They debase on their, you know, population all the time.

Venezuela hyperinflation, right? One of the most famous examples of the century so far. so when [00:27:00] I look forward, it seems Bukele is only going to have more and more influence, you know, even if it leaves politics, you know, his voice and reputation will have a higher influence. Especially as Bitcoin vindicates him and shows that he was right, you know, but then the Venezuelan president or other, you know, um, leaders of, of the region, like I just see their influence declining, right?

So, so anyway, I, I think you're right. I think it is a potential attack vector. you know, I don't know if one is preferable over the other, but I think both are inevitable. You know, like, I don't think it's that we can stop it. I mean, there will be pro, there will be anti Bitcoin politicians. That's going to be notable.

And I think there will be very pro Bitcoin politicians. both of those have their trade offs. Um, and I think it's just a matter of case by case being diligent.

Knut: Yeah, and the beauty here is that regardless, it's still a Trojan horse. It will still give them less power over time. Less and less power over time as the, for our grandchildren and so on. So, so it's still, it, [00:28:00] it acts as the Trojan horse with the pro guy and with the, uh, against Bitcoin guy.

Luke: Alright, you might have noticed that we've recently partnered with AmberApp. After our episode with Izzy, their CEO, and our close friend, we knew we would have to partner with them in some way, If you haven't seen our episode with Izzy, definitely go check it out, you'll see why it's such a great fit, and honestly, they're following the orange glowing light like Izzy always says, and that's exactly what we try to do here at the Freedom Footprint Show.

The big news about AmberApp is that they're going to be launching their version 2. I've seen some of the screenshots and it looks fantastic. They're going to be including a non custodial on chain wallet, an anonymous lightning wallet, a fiat wallet, And finally, it's going to be an exchange, of course. it's going to be just this super app, They're also going to be launching globally.

Everyone's going to be able to use it. we're really excited about all that. Stay tuned with us and you'll hear all about it. And for now, check out their website, amber. app and the episode with Izzy to find out more.

The End of Bitcoin Cycles

Knut: Yeah, what else [00:29:00] happens when Bitcoin reaches a million dollars?

Like, is that, um, is that a point where we don't see cycles anymore? We just have numbers go up constantly? Like, is that, uh, is that that cycle? The million dollar bitcoin price, what triggers hyperbitcoinization in a real sense? Or is that too bullish?

Luke Broyles: I don't know. I think it might be too bearish. I mean, like really, you know, I mean, it's like, there's what 1. 8 million Bitcoin on exchanges. there's 60 million millionaires. so if one in 30 of those millionaires, AKA 2 million of them, decide they want one Bitcoin to recording this video, it's 44, 000 us.

So. You know, a 5 percent allocation for a millionaire is one bitcoin. I mean, if one in 30 millionaires wants a 5 percent allocation, aka they want to get to one bitcoin, that's a major unit bias psychological level. I mean, that's all of them, right? that's, [00:30:00] that's crazy to think about. Like that's only, that's not even 3 percent of the world's millionaires, right?

Then factor in all the people that their unit bias level they want is not one bitcoin. It's a million sats, right? I mean, yes, it's only 1 percent of the. Bitcoin. But there's well over a hundred times that many people, right? And, you know, they may not be able to allocate it as fast because unlike a millionaire, you know, maybe they have less disposable assets or less assets liquid, but you know, all those cash flows, all those assets, I mean, it's just like, I just look at the numbers and the Bitcoin exchanges and it's like crazy, Just small percentages of people taking small percentages, drains it completely, right?

You know, like, what if, you know, like I just said, one in 30 millionaires wanting, uh, one bitcoin to 5 percent allocation, okay? But what if it's a smaller number, right? What if it's not one in 30, but one in 60 billionaires wanting a 10 percent allocation? It's the same math. Or what if it's one in 120 millionaires wanting a 20 percent allocation, right?

Is a 20 [00:31:00] percent Bitcoin allocation crazy? it may sound crazy to people now, but yeah, I don't think it is, but I think easily one in 120 millionaires will say, I want a 20 percent allocation. So factor in the one in 120 wanting a 20 percent allocation, plus the one in 60 wanting a 10 percent allocation, plus the one in 30 wanting a 5 percent allocation.

You know, now we're talking about one in, you know, now like one in 31, right? So still like probably not even, um, 3 percent of millionaires, but yet that's three times the total supply of Bitcoin exchanges, right? I mean, obviously as they buy it and they force price up, that's going to change, but you know, in principle, like I just look at that and I think, you know, it's just coins and exchanges are not enough, you know, and that's just the millionaires, right?

You know, then you have the billionaires like Saylor, you know, uh, when we're recording this, Saylor, um. A few weeks ago announced that MicroStrategy is buying another 600 million of Bitcoin. And then he announced personally, he's going to sell [00:32:00] 200 stock, roughly speaking, and, and acquire 3. 4 million of Bitcoin,

Knut: Per day.

Luke Broyles: Yeah. Per day based on market fluctuation. Right. Which is crazy.

Knut: Yeah,

Luke Broyles: I mean, with the halving in April, 2024, there's only 20 million of Bitcoin issued per day at Bitcoin's current price, right? 450 Bitcoin a day. I mean, that's like, okay. Saylor alone is like a sixth of all the Bitcoin minted on the day. It's crazy, crazy math.

Knut: let me fill in the blanks here. So

Luke Broyles: yeah, please do.

Number Go Up

Knut: most people don't know this, but the difference between a billion and a million is about a billion. Like, the million is so small in comparison to the billion, so you can just don't worry about that million. So a billionaire is a very different thing from a millionaire. And also, these first 15 years, like Bitcoin is 15 years old, as we speak, Bitcoin is 15 years and one day old. And during these first 15 years, [00:33:00] we've mined 93 percent of the total supply that will ever exist. Over the next 15 years, we'll mine six. 6 percent more. So, uh, and from that point, from that point on, until the last Satoshi's mind will mind the last percent.

So like over the next 15 years, 6%. So comparing the first 15 years to, to these next 15 years, it's just. Way off, because of the immense sats squeeze, and also, like, the sats on exchanges, half of them have been sold the last six months, and now Sailor is trying to buy every day, like, three mil, like, and, and add to that everything else that you just said, like, the supply and demand curves are just, it's a, it's a train crash, uh, it just can't go anywhere, but it's Completely bonkers.

It's not number go up anymore, it's number explode.

Luke Broyles: You make a great [00:34:00] point. I love the way you said that, that the difference between a million and a billion is pretty much a billion, you know, a million's, you know, what, 10th of a percent

Knut: It is. People don't know this, but it is. Yeah, and

Luke Broyles: think of it that way.

Knut: between a trillion and a billion is the same thing. It's about a trillion.

Luke Broyles: right. And that's why people say, oh, well, Bitcoin can't go to, you know, 10 million or 100 million because, you know, that's just so many zeros. So you don't understand orders of magnitude. You don't understand how much money that would take, Luke. But it's like, yes, I know that's an absurd amount of market cap to be added to Bitcoin, but there's an absurd amount of demand coming and there's an absurd amount of sats flowing out of exchanges, right?

So it's like you have. An exponential rising amount of capital with an exponentially decreasing amount of sats. It's

Bitcoin as a Store of Value

Luke Broyles: so my point being that right now, at the time of recording, every 90, 96 seconds, one Bitcoin's added to the network, right? But with the last Bitcoin taking 35 years, that's a third of a century. Right? That's [00:35:00] globally, and that's a third of a century, far more prosperous than ours, right? So right now we're recording this, you know, before 2025.

So we have well over three quarters of the 21st century to go and all the technological progress. And then you have the early 2020 second century, right? With all that progress, innovation or whatever is going to happen then, you know, we can't even fathom yet. my point being that while we get caught up in, oh, Bitcoin to a million dollars, Bitcoin to a hundred million dollars, Bitcoin to a trillion dollars, right?

Reality is that if we assume Bitcoin is going to survive for a long period of time, then we should assume that eventually that all of this global Bitcoin mining, that all of these politicians, all these governments, all of these, you know, individuals, people, companies, everyday folks, you know, independent node runners, you know, all these people.

are going to be chasing that last one Bitcoin in the early 20, 22nd century, right? Like there could be, you know, maybe 7, 8, 9 billion people on Bitcoin network in a hundred years, right? You know, who knows, I'm [00:36:00] just guessing, but there can be billions of people for, basically an entire working career, AKA a third of a century former prosperous than ours chasing one Bitcoin, right?

So it's like. For me, way more than the, Oh, I'll get to one Bitcoin because it's a red number. It's like, get to one Bitcoin because the last one's going to take 35 years. So even if it takes you 35 years to get one Bitcoin, like just go for it because you're, you know, the kids born, you know, your grandkids, you know, they won't, they won't be able to get one Bitcoin.

There's no way. You're not going to single handedly have, uh, you know, a third of a century's, uh, you know, mining rewards yourself, right? It's just not going to be possible or feasible. Right. So, um, and then of course, once that finishes in 2140. Then, the only direction is down as far as balances, right?

Globally as coins get lost.

Knut: Yeah. And this is also why Bitcoin is not gold. 2.0. It's so different from gold. Like, so imagine it's a pretty good deal to be able to buy, uh, say you buy one [00:37:00] unit of. Uh, worth of the world's total gold mining for 35 years, starting the year two thousand and one hundred, uh, and ten, one hundred and five, exactly.

So the year two, one, zero, five, the equivalent of all the gold mining in the world for 35 years, starting at that point, that is what won Bitcoin. is the equivalent of now, which is also weird because it's, it's not even that it's bullish enough. And I'll tell you why. It's because, gold was a good, uh, store of value and a good, like, money because it, as technologies moved forward and, and things became cheaper and cheaper, gold mining became more and more efficient.

So more gold was found per time unit. So the prices. we're relatively stable. this is not true for Bitcoin because as, as hashing technology gets [00:38:00] better, the Bitcoins don't get found faster. Like that, that doesn't happen. That's why we have the difficulty adjustment algorithm. So it's even better than that.

It's even better than owning the gold because, uh, I mean, it's, it's so weird and so hard to wrap your head around, but it's definitely not gold 2. 0. Um. By the way, isn't it this next halving that Bitcoin's inflation is actually lower than gold, or its stock to flow ratio,

Luke Broyles: Yeah. Yeah. It's, it's stock to flow ratio. You know, I, I would say it's less of Bitcoin inflation. We're like Bitcoin issuance, but, um, but yeah, yeah, the, the stock to flow officially goes under gold, the cycle, right? You know, I, I think, you know,

Knut: and then forever?

Luke Broyles: yeah, forever and definitely to zero.

Yeah. Yeah. I think most people will look back, at this conversation, right? You see people today look at us, you know, normal people look at us Bitcoiners and they say, Oh, they're crazy. They're comparing Bitcoin to [00:39:00] gold. That's so stupid. That's so idiotic. Gold's real money, blah, blah, blah. You know, so everyone hates the Bitcoin to gold metaphor today for that reason, right?

The thing is too optimistic. But

Knut: and it's the opposite.

Bitcoin vs Gold

Luke Broyles: yeah, but into your point, it's the opposite. Like we're in this 20 to 30 year window where people think the Bitcoin to gold metaphor is stupid because gold is obviously better, but then that's going to be dwarfed by the many, many decades, if not centuries, you know, from the 2040s, 2050s onwards, where people were like, why are you comparing gold to Bitcoin?

They're entirely different, right? It's the same, it's the same thing with the horse and locomotive, right? It's like. If you were to just be plopped in the middle of our current time in the 21st century, why would you compare the horse and locomotive? It's like, okay, like, that seems no different than comparing a car to a goat.

I mean, it's like, it makes no logical sense if you don't have the historical context, right? Like, the metaphor makes no sense. It's the iron horse, but, you know, it's just, It's an analogy for ancient people trying to get up to the modern era, right? [00:40:00] Like the horse locomotive metaphor makes sense in the 1820s, 50s, 90s, early 1900s even, maybe.

Now it doesn't make any sense, right? It's gonna be the same thing with Bitcoin. Like the gold Bitcoin metaphor is not gonna make sense to my grandkids, and it's not, it doesn't make sense to our peers today, but for two very different reasons. And I think that's funny to think about and appreciate is that we're in this narrow window where The metaphor kind of works, right?

We can actually compare Bitcoin stock to flow to gold and people, some people get what we're saying, but the majority now don't like it. The majority of the future don't like it, but. You know, hey, for those with ears, you know, hopefully they'll listen. So

Knut: The thing I don't like about the horse to, uh, to, uh, locomotive metaphor is that it's The horse and the locomotive are somewhat too similar. The locomotive is better than the horse, it's faster, and takes more people. But it's not orders of magnitude faster, you know what I mean? So, it's more like if [00:41:00] you compare communications technologies, you would compare RuneStone to TikTok or something.

Like, that's That's more

Luke Broyles: that's more

Knut: than how much, yeah, yeah, so, or, uh, a skateboard to the, the Starship Enterprise or something, like, uh, uh,

Luke Broyles: You're right. You're right.

Knut: it's so much more,

Luke Broyles: Yeah. I don't have the numbers off, you know, I don't have the numbers to back this up, but I, I would easily guess that the locomotive makes transport orders of magnitude more cost efficient, but you're, you know, as far as speed and all

Knut: yeah, it, yeah, it does, yeah.

Luke Broyles: But the reason I like that metaphor though is less so.

You know, this is the beauty of metaphors, right? All models are wrong, but some are useful. All metaphors are wrong, but some are useful. But the reason I like that metaphor, the reason I always bring it up is because we often forget how recent that was, right? Like that was barely 200 years ago. I mean, that's 200 years is nothing on the grand scheme of history.

And, [00:42:00] you know, that's like three or four, maybe five generations ago for most people. I mean, you know, like, like my, my grandmother's in her nineties and, you know, her mom was in the wagon days. Right. And like, she remembers stories of her mom telling, you know, from, from that. Right. I mean, cause she was old and her mom had her late.

You know, it's just, it's incredible to think about, but my family being an instance and maybe some people watching, you know, they know extended family, whatever, but it's like, there are people still alive that. Had a direct personal relationship with people alive at the time of, you know. Napoleon and, and, and, and, you know, the pre horse pre look, uh, pre, um, automobile era.

Like it's just, it's so recent and yet there's been so much technological change. We just forget that's the case. Right. And to me, that's why talking about Bitcoin is so important is that, yes, it's about hopefully everyone watching this is buying Bitcoin, adopting Bitcoin, but it's also about what's the next adoption curve behind Bitcoin.

Next, after Bitcoin, [00:43:00] because whatever that adoption curve is, in my guess, I mean, I think probably anyone that's looking at technology from that futuristic perspective. perspective. The Bitcoin adoption curve is much faster than the internet. And whatever's up to Bitcoin, I think is going to be much faster than the Bitcoin adoption curve, right?

Now that gets into cloud or custody multi sig, which is a big part of why I joined Bitcoin adviser, you know, kind of tying that back into the conversation is, you know, I think that's an adoption curve way faster than what anyone is expecting, right? You know, basically it's custody innovation within the adoption curve of Bitcoin.

So meaning it's like an even more hyperbolic. Adoption curve, right? But again, that's the general point that for people looking to buy Bitcoin and then adjust to the technology of the future is that that's the trade off. The trade off for Endless prosperity flowing at us into larger orders of magnitude is that the adoption curves are going to get steeper.

Things are going to get outdated much faster and, keeping up with technology is a much more urgent thing, right? I mean, everything's a trade off. That's the trade off [00:44:00] of having faster innovation forever is that you have faster innovation forever. So, um, anyway, that's why I like that metaphor of the locomotive.

Knut: back to this, like, the time perspective, uh, this was in the news just last week about that the President John Tyler, born in 1790, has a grandson who's still alive today.

Luke Broyles: Correct!

Knut: there's a person

Luke Broyles: Grandson!

Knut: Yeah, so that's two generations away. So like, uh, the U. S. is just a handful of generations old, which is, which is so weird when you think about like the Santa Maria in Columbus, uh, sailing across the Atlantic into the vast nothingness, you know, and hoping to find India and stuff.

Uh, That's just a handful of generations, so try to, try to predict the future five generations from now, like, it's impossible, especially since everything [00:45:00] goes exponentially faster, every year, so, so it's, it's just, uh, yeah, crazy when you think about it. And how, how close in time these things are. And I think the transitioning from, you know, horses to cars, that was like a decade or two.

That's, that's all the time it took. And that's way, way, way before internets or even fucking telephones, proper telephones. so, yeah, I imagine that, uh, things can happen very fast.

Luke Broyles: Which has positive and negative consequences, right? You know, at New Year's, 2024 New Year's, there was a famous video of the Arc de Triomphe at the, you know, in Paris of everyone holding up their cell phone recording the fireworks, right? Many of you probably watching early 2024 have seen this video, it kind of went

Knut: yeah, yeah, I saw that. Yeah,

Luke Broyles: you know, this whole, you know, going back to my, the first thread I ever wrote, um, on, on, online, basically an article, you know, Twitter thread, uh, was about this idea that we have less to come with the future than [00:46:00] the past, right? It's like that, Yeah. You know, that structure in Paris has been there for, you know, hundreds of years, and, you know, people, you know, just would walk around it never with a screen to their face for centuries.

And now all of a sudden, here we are, last 10 years, we've had the smartphone revolution, and, you know, now everyone just holds up a little blue screen, right? And so it's, all these adoption curves are going to have a, I think, are going to have a lot of, A lot of positive implications, a lot of negative externalities.

Hopefully the positive ones outweigh the negative ones, you know, 10 to 1. But, you know, I think people, I think the heart of Bitcoiners is to be thinking with that forward mindset because we know we can't predict it, right? And that's why Bitcoin number go up is the only futurist quote unquote thing I I like to predict, quote unquote predict, because it's like whatever said innovation is like, you know, I have no idea, you have no idea, everyone watching, you know, we have no clue.

But whatever that [00:47:00] innovation is, if Bitcoin survives, and it has the most Lendi effect, you know, it's Going to be what we denominate those innovations in, right? So it's kind of like the meme, the bell adoption curve, right? Where the person over here, the quote unquote low IQ is Bitcoin number go up forever.

Yeah. Yeah. The 80 IQ. And then over here that, you know, whatever the 150 IQ or the 200 IQ guy is like number go up forever because it's like, whatever the innovation is. It's foolish to predict what the innovation is going to be. You know, you can't predict internet when, you know, in 1903, when the Wright Brothers first take off, right?

It's like, you can't do it. Um, or probably a better example is like, okay, 1903, we met the airplane. 1945, we drop bombs on Hiroshima and Nagasaki from a B 52, right? And then you have landing on the moon in the 60s and now you have, other space stuff. I mean, it's just like, that's crazy, [00:48:00] you know? And so I think it's nonsensical to guess what the innovation is going to be, but If that innovation is going to occur, and if Bitcoin survives, then Bitcoin is going to denominate it, right?

Knut: It should have been the other way around. They should have faked the atomic bombs and actually landed on the moon. That would have been better for the world, I think.

Luke Broyles: Yeah, yeah. I mean, if you're going to choose faking one of them, you know, fake the war, right? But, you know Unfortunately, when the guns are out, you actually have to do the real thing, right? You can't, you can't fake it in war, otherwise your bluff will be called.

Um,

Knut: could just have some, some charming person go to, uh, go to Hiroshima and pay everyone to say they were bombed. Like, that would have been way better for everyone.

Luke Broyles: maybe cheaper.

Knut: Maybe cheaper. Uh, yeah.

Luke Broyles: Like, like, really, like, like, nuclear fission and fusion. It's like, okay, we discovered that, now we have nuclear energy, and now we have a nuclear bomb. It's like, same thing with smartphones. It's like, we could record a podcast anywhere in the world with these devices, [00:49:00] or we could Missed the moment being perpetually plugged in, right?

And these adoption curves are going to get faster. It's like,

Positives and Negatives of Technology

Knut: Yeah, about missing the moment though, what it does is that it gives us an accurate, very, to play the devil's advocate there, it gives the Arc de Triomphe, uh, it gives humanity a memory of what that looked like, exactly, and from all different angles. Like, it's very easy to reconstruct that thing, should it ever be bombed in the future, now that we have such a good record of it.

Luke Broyles: yeah, precisely. It's not, yeah, it's not entirely negative. You know, I guess that's just kind of the nuance I'm trying to say is that it's like a mix of both. Right.

Knut: The angle here that I have on, like, I think, like, technologies and scientific breakthroughs and stuff, they're never Good or bad in their, in themselves, what makes them bad is when the incentives are aligned, misaligned, so that psychopaths get to use their, [00:50:00] what they're used for. You know, which, which the atomic bomb is a perfect example of.

I mean, that technology is very powerful, and it could have been used for good, instead it would have been used for blowing innocent people up. And, some not so innocent, but still, blowing way too many people up. and that's the thing, it's back to praxeology again, and the resources being misallocated because of theft, uh, that's what creates the bad incentives, and that's why, you know, science and technology gets a bad name, because it ends up in the hands of the wrong people.

So, that's what we have to fix, and that's what Bitcoin fixes in my mind, and that's why I'm so optimistic about it.

Luke Broyles: yeah, it's a great, it's a great perspective. You know, that's, that's why Bitcoin survives is because as long as it remains outside the control of human beings, where we can't. Distort, manipulate, or debase its supply, um, you [00:51:00] know, then as long as that happens to where it can't, then inherently it can't fall into good hands, quote unquote, and it can't fall into bad hands, because You know, then there's no ability, right?

So, I mean, like, for me, that's, that's the Achilles heel of a Bitcoin, you know, I mean, if Bitcoin's a Trojan horse, I guess, you know, that's the two bedforce of the same thing, but you know, like, if, if the Achilles heel, if there's an Achilles heel for Bitcoin, to me, that's it, right? It's, it's good people, quote unquote, or any people, you know.

Get in control of it, because if good people can control Bitcoin, or let's say, you know, well intentioned people could control Bitcoin, then inherently, people with bad incentives or misaligned incentives inherently will also be able to control it. Right? So, you know, that's, to me, that's, that's why the case for Bitcoin as an apolitical money is so important.

You know, it has to be out of control of everyone to ensure it's out of control of, of the bad actors.

Knut: Of anyone, yeah. Yeah, it has to be in control [00:52:00] of everyone in order for it to prevent it to be controlled by someone.

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What Bitcoin Advisers Do

Luke: hey, so, so, Luke, I just wanted to check as we started going down the rabbit holes here pretty quickly.

Was there anything else that you wanted to say about the Bitcoin adviser stuff you have going on?

Luke Broyles: Yeah, sure. Well, you know, I, the, with, it actually ties in quite nicely what we were just talking about, you know, I, I think the whole, we have less in common with the future and the past idea, I think is true here too, right? I think even within Bitcoin, we have less in common with the near future of Bitcoin than the quote unquote distant past of Bitcoin, right?

And then that future probably is less common with that future and that future, right? So, Cool. You know, if we look at Bitcoin's history, Bitcoin's 15 years old now, um, at the time of recording. And if we look at Bitcoin's history, the vast majority of Bitcoin's time has been like single SIG adoption, right?

It's people having, you know, one set of 12 [00:54:00] words, 24 words to back their Bitcoin, right? I, I genuinely think that, you know, the next Wave, a Bitcoin adoption is primarily going to be multi sig and specifically clouder custom multi sig. Uh, you know, hopefully people have zero single point of failures in those setups.

Um, and then I think the wave after that is, you know, the layer two mass adoption, um, you know, the daily payments, you know, those kinds of things for, for people, right. You know, because not everyone's going to be able to afford layer one transactions. That's an inherent reality and trade off. Right. And so I think.

I think the days we're in right now for Bitcoin, I think these are like ancient days, like I think these are like, you know, ancient Roman days in Bitcoin's story, you know, the old days where individuals would hold UTXOs, like whole UTXOs, Individually, and they would quote unquote, so carelessly have them on, you know, single CIGs, right?

Like, I think that's going to be a foreign idea in the future, right? And it makes sense that we've already lost millions of more Bitcoin, or excuse me, we've [00:55:00] already lost millions of Bitcoin, you know, four to 6 million or whatever, the last 10, 15 years, I think we'll probably lose at least another million Bitcoin in the future, uh, you know, the mid future, um, not even the far future, but you know, I, I think that's.

Important people to keep in mind is that we're currently at, you know, one in a thousand people adopting Bitcoin, right? Maybe a 10th of a percent or so, maybe, maybe double that, you know, I mean, if you really want to get bullish, um, but to get from today to the next 50 X and Bitcoin adoption. The vast majority of those people, I think, are going to opt for multisig, and specifically ClatterCusty multisig, right?

If you're a company or a bank or, or, you know, a family trust, or, or, you know, you have Bitcoin in your retirement accounts, like Really, your only options are Bitcoin ETF or aka paper Bitcoin or real Bitcoin in some sort of management solution like that. Right? I mean, you can't have single sig Bitcoin in a Roth IRA.

You can't have [00:56:00] single sig Bitcoin in a pension fund. You can't have it on the nation state level, you know, in that single sig, right? I mean, and so obviously there's a lot of nuance and all those things I'm not going to get into. But. You know what? That's reality that people are going to want Bitcoin, you know, as much as, you know, we may say, Oh, be independent and don't have Bitcoin in your retirement accounts, blah, blah, blah.

You know, reality is that, you know, those millionaires, like I mentioned earlier, they're going to want at least some of their Bitcoin exposure to be within those accounts. And those accounts and the integration of Bitcoin into traditional finance inherently is going to be in various forms of multisig.

And again, specifically cloud or custody multisig. Arrangements. Right. And so, you know, I say all this to emphasize, I think Bitcoiners need to prepare for that because again, number one problem with Bitcoin is education. Number two problem is custody. Right. And this is. Perhaps the biggest change in Bitcoin custody, I think we've seen to date.

There have been multiple big changes already, but I think it's going to be very dramatic. And I think it's [00:57:00] going to be a very steep adoption curve. Um, you know, and those are the three options for Bitcoin custody, right? You have custodial Bitcoin, you know, paper Bitcoin, which again, I don't think is Excusable besides extremely rare, you know, niche circumstances, maybe, because again, I don't want to take, you know, like you were saying earlier, you're a boat captain, right?

It's like, I don't want to go out on the boat. If I think, yeah, yeah, I think there's a 90 percent chance we'll make it back to port today, right? It's like, it makes no sense. Right. It's like, okay, yeah, sure. That's good odds, but I don't want my doctor to say, yeah, there's a 95 percent chance that you'll, you know, he'll make it through surgery, wake up again.

Right. And like with ETF, it's like people aren't people right now will tolerate Bitcoin exchanges and paper Bitcoin because they don't understand Bitcoin and they don't understand the bullishness of Bitcoin. They don't really people hold Bitcoin on exchanges because they think it's going to a hundred thousand, not a hundred million.

If people understood Bitcoin's going a hundred million, they would never hold Bitcoin on exchange. Right. Because that's. [00:58:00] Illogical. Uh, you know, so point is as people begin to realize this is an option, they're going to realize self custody is the only way with single SIG. Um, it has great advantages and has great uses.

Uh, there, there are trade offs though. The same thing with multi SIG that's self directed and the same thing with, uh, multi SIG and collateral custody. Um, so really the Bitcoin adviser, what we help people do is we help people adopt. Collateral custody multisig that, um, from a loss mitigation perspective, our goal is to help people prevent losing their Bitcoin, you know, been in business eight years, not a single Satoshi has been lost.

Peter's very proud of that. Everyone on the team is very proud of that. I mean, you know, and we deal with people, very experienced people that are very new people with very large amounts of Bitcoin people with, you know, orders of magnitude, less or more Bitcoin, right? You know, we deal with all networks from all.

All demographics, all age ranges, you know, every, every, you know, factor of diversity you can think of. And, you know, despite all that, you know, not a [00:59:00] single client has ever lost a single sat due to death. Due to, uh, someone stealing it from them, theft, uh, or lost keys, you know, basically, we're guardrails, you know, we're, we're, uh, we're, we're like a buffer for helping people have security adopting it.

And so, for the people that are still stuck on exchanges, they're like, Dang it, I've still got my bitcoin on exchanges or I think I'm diversified because I have my bitcoin on different exchanges, right? It's like, you know, for those people, Bitcoin adviser is a massive value add and a massive service because we can say, yes, we know you're still on exchanges.

Yes, it's okay. No shame. No, we know you're not doing it because you're scared of losing your bitcoin. If you take those keys, you know, let us help you take those keys, take self custody in a cloud custody format to where. Even if you make a mistake, you know, we can work together and make sure that you're taking things slow at your pace to where your Bitcoin is, um, recoverable, right?

Basically helping people take that next step of, as you put very well earlier, responsibility. [01:00:00] Um, you know, and then from the optimistic perspective too, ultimately, really the Bitcoin adviser, the main value add we're going to add to people is not charging a small fee. on Bitcoin at 44, 000 US. That's not the real business model for us.

The real goal is help people get through the chasm of the next five years, keep Bitcoin secure, help them not lose their Bitcoin, not to improper UTXO management, not to scams, not to theft, not to losing their own keys, not to death, not for any reason. Don't lose a single sat. You know, getting through this adoption phrase and then on the other side, when Bitcoin has traditional finance adoption, institutional adoption, you know, the real value add for us as a company, you know, where we're going to have by far the biggest benefits and likewise where our clients can have the biggest benefits is in that future when people want to borrow.

Right now it's controversial and right now I would not recommend it. But eventually there are going to be a lot of people that do want to borrow, um, against their Bitcoin. They do want to borrow fiat [01:01:00] against their Bitcoin. You know, just a small percentage are going to borrow live off of it, right? Or they're going to want to time lock their Bitcoin, or they're going to want to have Bitcoin's collateral variance for, uh, a bunch of different insurance possibilities, right?

So, you know, basically incorporating Bitcoin into that space. It's going to take a very long time and, you know, it's not ready yet, but eventually when that does happen, what are banks going to want? What are people going to want? What are companies going to want? They're going to want to work with clients that have a cloud or custody arrangement with the company on the planet that has the single longest track record of providing cloud or custody multi sig options.

With the longest standing perfect record of a zero sat failure rate, right? And so I'm very confident that is Bitcoin adviser. You know, we've been a pioneer in the estate planning space, helping people, you know, protect their Bitcoin for their kids and grandkids. Um, you know, we've been a huge, uh, bringer of peace of mind for people that are like, Hey, I've got X coins.

I've got a hundred percent allocation of single SIG and my [01:02:00] wife or my kid or my nephew or my whomever. doesn't understand how to ask, like, if I die today, my loved ones probably couldn't get my bitcoin, right? And so they realized, you know, I probably should have a 50 percent exposure to Clouder Custody Multisig with the Bitcoin adviser, where I know even if I die, I lose the other half, or even if I screw it up and I lose you a half, or I lose my memory, I am in a car accident, you know, like basically, yeah, I need it.

We're leaving the ancient world where we diversify between assets to protect our wealth. And I think we're entering the modern world where we don't diversify in the asset we hold. It's only Bitcoin, but we do diversify custody, right? And so I think that's the future. I think all of us watching this, all of us in this conversation, everyone watching this, I think we're all You know, beginning to see that transition, companies begin to enter the space, get into multisig, VASB accounting rules, that's a big deal we didn't even get into, but both for number go up as well as for custody and multisig options.

But, um, yeah, [01:03:00] that's essentially what we do at Bitcoin adviser, and I really love the work, it's really rewarding. And frankly, the fastest way to buy more Bitcoin is to, in my belief, the fastest way to buy more Bitcoin is to secure your custody. I mean, again, this much risk is Bitcoin volatility. This much risk is your custody.

Like it's a funny thing I see with clients at first they, you know, they book a call with me or they consider it and they're like, yeah, you guys are expensive. I don't know if I need it or whatever. Then eventually they try it, they try it, and within like a matter of weeks or months, they realize, Oh my goodness, you guys are cheap, because I just realized that I can buy so much more Bitcoin.

I can actually justify a higher allocation because now like 80 percent of my risk was just eliminated, right? Because now, okay, if a criminal, you know, with a single SIG, you know, if a criminal, you know, let's say I won Bitcoin, aka 35 years of the 22nd century, on a single SIG [01:04:00] device in my house. If someone breaks into my house and takes those 12 words and then leaves, I don't know they broke in.

Like, in 20 years, they could steal my Bitcoin, right? And so, For, for our clients, when they have a greater peace of mind, when it comes to the Bitcoin exposure, they end up on their own desire, quickly increasing their allocation. Um, especially if spouses or family members don't have the peace of mind that the client itself does, you know, it gets families on the same page, it brings peace of mind.

Um, you know, the spouse, the loved ones has the comfort knowing that, okay, if something were to happen to him or something were to happen to their coins, that You know, the kids you recovered or whatever, right. That brings peace of mind, justifies how the Bitcoin allocations and, and funny enough, the vast majority of our clients, like well over 90%, once they join, like they begin increasing their stack because now they can justify it.

Right. So, um, anyway, to the point with aligning incentives, that is what's so rewarding with this [01:05:00] job to me. It doesn't feel like a job, right? Like I'm working all day, every day on it, but it doesn't feel like it because almost every person I'm on a call with. That's a client that's just so grateful for the service because it gives them peace of mind, helps them sleep better, better for their health, uh, they can go out and instead of spending 500 hours trying to learn all the nuances with self custody, they simply can have a voice along with them, guiding them, answering any questions they want, you know, giving them as much information as they can so the person can, if they want, verify it on their own, but point being is that people want to learn.

The point of Bitcoin is optionality. People want to have Bitcoin so they can do what they want with their life. And so, for people having the option of knowing that, okay, good, I don't have to choose between single SIG, where I think I'm going to screw it up, and fake ETF, but I can do a collateral custody arrangement, you know, and an estate plan for, you know, if I pass on, or, you know, if, if I'm not capable of Managing [01:06:00] these keys anymore.

So, um, yes. So I said a lot there. Um, it's very funny. Most Bitcoiners don't understand this yet. Uh, you know, I, I really am pounding the table on this very hard, uh, you know, in my videos and everything I'm doing. And yes, that is in my own self interest working at working at the company. Right. But I'm also doing it because I really want Bitcoin to start thinking about this.

Right. Because again, we're at one in a thousand. People adopting Bitcoin, you know, maybe 0. 1%. Like, you know, maybe Bitcoiners today don't realize how important multisig is, or again, Cloud or Kusty multisig. But the majority of the next 100x adoption, the majority of that next 10%, Are going, are going to want this, right?

And so, you know, the Bitcoin adviser has the longest track record. Uh, we have a very impressive team, in my opinion, global team, very decentralized team. Um, we have a model. I don't believe anyone is a rival of, on the [01:07:00] planet because every other multi sig offering is a product. We are a service, fundamentally different.

Um, that my, my point is that even if the Bitcoin adviser increases by a factor of 10 or 20 in the next. You know, a couple of years, like it's still going to be a very difficult hill to climb because the demand may go up 20x at minimum, maybe more like 50 to a hundred X, right? You know, the, the companies are just starting the high number of individuals are just starting.

Um, you know, the, the, the OGs, you know, if you've got, you know, 50 coins, 50 coins at 50, 000 of Bitcoin is very different than 50 coins at, you know, a million dollars. Right. And so for people that are wanting to protect against. theft or death or loss, I think this is going to be a very large value prop.

And I think the value proposition increases exponentially as the value of Bitcoin increases exponentially. And so, um, yeah, so that's what we do. I, I'm really proud of the work we do. I think Peter's brilliant. Um, cause he's consistently, he, he, my experience in knowing him the last year, [01:08:00] he's been consistently ahead of the curve.

Um, and to me, it's. It's really fulfilling. So yeah, if people want to check it out, our website has lots of free resources. If they want to put in the 500 hours and do it on their own for free, or obviously they can book a call and, you know, pay for a service to, you know, have us walk them through it.

That's, that, that's, that's the pitch. That's what we do. And it's a blast.

Knut: yeah, I think we're going to the like, subscribe, and brush your teeth part, right?

Luke: Sort of, but, but, uh, well, did, did you want to ask our, our new last question?

Luke Broyles' Freedom Footprint

Knut: Oh yeah, Luke, this is, uh, besides from working with the Bitcoin adviser, what are you doing? Personally, to increase your freedom footprint on the world.

Luke Broyles: Ooh, that's a good one. My Freedom Footprint on the world? Well, I'm doing a lot of traveling. I'm going to Costa Rica, and this is related, but I'm going to Costa Rica in like 10 days for Bitcoin [01:09:00] Jungle, and then I'm going to South Africa. Then I'm going to go to Guatemala and then, you know, a couple other countries later in the year, you know, hopefully Madeira, Portugal, and Prague, and obviously, you know, Canadian Bitcoin Conference, that's like just north of me, but I say that to say that, uh, one of those trips, especially the trip to Guatemala, um, is not particularly Bitcoin related.

That one is, is installing stoves for locals there, you know, for them, you know, most of them cook over open flame. And so cooking over an enclosed. Um, stove with an actual, you know, chimney or pipe that gets smoke out of the house. That's like a really big deal, right? It's the fastest way, you know, for many of these Guatemalans, the single fastest way to reduce smoke inhalation and therefore various forms of cancers.

Um, the fastest way to give the wives and mothers. Uh, less time chopping wood and more time, educating the kids, you know, basic education, you know, is this because it's more efficient for firewood? That means less jungle that's being cut down, more time to educate the kids, [01:10:00] uh, you know, less health problems, right?

Better calories because you can cook more food because you can have the fire going for longer, right? So, uh, you know, the, the whole mantra of increasing freedom and increasing energy abundance and increasing. Um, energy freedom, um, I think it's important to all aspects. Bitcoin's an incredible tool. It's not the only tool we need, but it's.

It's a very imperative tool at having as much energy possible per capita around the world. And that's what's so fulfilling about going to all these conferences, is seeing how energy abundance is being manifested and created in different ways. Um, each different place, right? I was just in El Salvador. I'm sure Costa Rica is going to be very different than El Salvador.

Right. And I'm sure South Africa would be different. Guatemala is very different. So, um, yeah, anyway, yeah. So I guess what I'm doing to increase my footprint is just making videos, content, and hopefully inspiring people to increase energy abundance.

Wrapping Up

Knut: Excellent. [01:11:00] Uh, and, yeah, final question, where, where, did you have anything else you want to add? Where can we send your people to online if they want to dig into more Luke Broil stuff?

Luke Broyles: Yeah, I'm on the platform, formerly known as Twitter, um, currently known as X. Uh, I, I'm on there. You can follow me there or subscribe on my YouTube channel. you know, most important though is obviously Bitcoin adviser. You can find me, you can email me, uh, luke at the bitcoinadviser. com, or you can find me on the Bitcoin adviser's website.

They can book a free call with me. We can talk through their custody and how I believe we could improve it, make it more secure. And help them buy more Bitcoin. So, yeah, Twitter, YouTube, or Bitcoinadviser.

Knut: Excellent. This has been the Freedom Footprint Show. Over to you, Luke.

Luke: Well, you just said, you just said what I was going to say. Yeah, thanks a lot, Luke. This has been fantastic. And, uh, yeah, [01:12:00] like, subscribe, brush your teeth. This has been the Freedom Footprint Show. Thanks for listening.