Swapping Bitcoin, Lightning, and More with Kilian Rausch from Boltz

1
00:00:00,000 --> 00:00:00,416
I'm on a

2
00:00:00,416 --> 00:00:01,750
personal mission to

3
00:00:01,750 --> 00:00:03,208
not let happen to ark

4
00:00:03,208 --> 00:00:04,166
what happened to lightning

5
00:00:04,166 --> 00:00:06,083
specifically that is being oversold

6
00:00:06,083 --> 00:00:07,416
as a solution to everything.

7
00:00:07,416 --> 00:00:07,916
The times

8
00:00:07,916 --> 00:00:09,750
where you can just open a channel

9
00:00:09,750 --> 00:00:11,125
and it will be open forever,

10
00:00:11,125 --> 00:00:12,583
and you have one Bitcoin of inbound

11
00:00:12,583 --> 00:00:13,916
liquidity for free forever.

12
00:00:13,916 --> 00:00:15,333
These times are slowly

13
00:00:15,333 --> 00:00:16,583
but surely coming to an end.

14
00:00:16,583 --> 00:00:18,250
And lightning has turned into this

15
00:00:18,250 --> 00:00:19,916
almost intermediate layer

16
00:00:19,916 --> 00:00:21,041
that really there's

17
00:00:21,041 --> 00:00:22,375
applications on top of it

18
00:00:22,375 --> 00:00:25,708
that use lightning as the mechanism

19
00:00:25,708 --> 00:00:27,583
of facilitating transactions.

20
00:00:27,583 --> 00:00:29,375
If you make an on chain transaction,

21
00:00:29,375 --> 00:00:29,916
that's going to be

22
00:00:29,916 --> 00:00:31,458
a rare thing in the future,

23
00:00:31,458 --> 00:00:31,916
and maybe it's

24
00:00:31,916 --> 00:00:33,291
not even that far from now.

25
00:00:33,291 --> 00:00:34,166
We had to shut down

26
00:00:34,166 --> 00:00:35,375
both services for,

27
00:00:35,375 --> 00:00:35,708
I think,

28
00:00:35,708 --> 00:00:36,750
four days in a row,

29
00:00:36,750 --> 00:00:38,250
because all our working

30
00:00:38,250 --> 00:00:38,958
capital of the capital

31
00:00:38,958 --> 00:00:39,583
that we used for

32
00:00:39,583 --> 00:00:40,750
was locked up in the mempool.

33
00:00:40,750 --> 00:00:42,000
So get out of money, guys.

34
00:00:42,000 --> 00:00:43,000
Everything that is somewhat

35
00:00:43,000 --> 00:00:44,291
critical has to be open

36
00:00:44,291 --> 00:00:45,250
source software.

37
00:00:45,250 --> 00:00:46,208
We sometimes use the servers,

38
00:00:46,208 --> 00:00:46,750
we pay for it,

39
00:00:46,750 --> 00:00:47,791
but we want to be able

40
00:00:47,791 --> 00:00:48,708
to run it ourselves

41
00:00:48,708 --> 00:00:49,291
because we don't know

42
00:00:49,291 --> 00:00:50,291
what will happen to the service.

43
00:00:50,291 --> 00:00:51,833
Open sourcing everything

44
00:00:51,833 --> 00:00:53,250
and just selling the service

45
00:00:53,250 --> 00:00:55,125
is the obvious ethical way

46
00:00:55,125 --> 00:00:56,041
to go about things,

47
00:00:56,041 --> 00:00:57,208
and it's also the way

48
00:00:57,208 --> 00:00:58,416
to get the market signal

49
00:00:58,416 --> 00:00:59,083
if you're doing the

50
00:00:59,083 --> 00:01:00,416
right thing or not.

51
00:01:02,291 --> 00:01:03,375
Kelly and welcome to

52
00:01:03,375 --> 00:01:04,541
the Bitcoin Infinity Show.

53
00:01:04,541 --> 00:01:06,083
Thank you for joining us.

54
00:01:06,083 --> 00:01:06,875
Thank you for having me

55
00:01:06,875 --> 00:01:08,750
I'm excited to be here.

56
00:01:08,750 --> 00:01:09,166
Yes.

57
00:01:09,166 --> 00:01:11,250
Good to finally have you on Killian.

58
00:01:11,250 --> 00:01:12,583
I mean,

59
00:01:12,583 --> 00:01:14,208
I went up to Madrid to visit

60
00:01:14,208 --> 00:01:16,458
you and a bunch of other Bitcoiners,

61
00:01:16,458 --> 00:01:18,125
like, two years ago

62
00:01:18,125 --> 00:01:18,833
now or something.

63
00:01:18,833 --> 00:01:19,708
Yeah, something like that.

64
00:01:19,708 --> 00:01:20,916
It's like time flies.

65
00:01:20,916 --> 00:01:22,250
How are things in Madrid?

66
00:01:22,250 --> 00:01:22,666
Good.

67
00:01:22,666 --> 00:01:24,125
So, actually, since you visited,

68
00:01:24,125 --> 00:01:25,625
I think we were at the stage

69
00:01:25,625 --> 00:01:26,416
where we're building up

70
00:01:26,416 --> 00:01:27,791
the local Bitcoin meetup.

71
00:01:27,791 --> 00:01:28,875
So two steps back.

72
00:01:28,875 --> 00:01:31,958
I arrived in Madrid around 2019

73
00:01:32,250 --> 00:01:33,333
and it was pretty much

74
00:01:33,333 --> 00:01:34,666
nothing regarding Bitcoin.

75
00:01:34,666 --> 00:01:36,875
No meetup, no no people, you know.

76
00:01:36,875 --> 00:01:37,791
And I was like, damn that

77
00:01:37,791 --> 00:01:38,541
that can be the case

78
00:01:38,541 --> 00:01:39,333
for such a big city

79
00:01:39,333 --> 00:01:40,625
to to not have a

80
00:01:40,625 --> 00:01:41,666
regular bitcoin meetup,

81
00:01:41,666 --> 00:01:43,208
let alone even a meetup.

82
00:01:43,208 --> 00:01:44,375
So,

83
00:01:44,375 --> 00:01:45,875
I started it together with a friend

84
00:01:45,875 --> 00:01:47,375
and you have been one of our,

85
00:01:47,375 --> 00:01:50,375
our first, guests to speak.

86
00:01:50,666 --> 00:01:52,541
And, so the concept we

87
00:01:52,541 --> 00:01:54,166
always have is like, we're offline

88
00:01:54,166 --> 00:01:56,500
an expert or a, and the person

89
00:01:56,500 --> 00:01:58,291
that is dedicating his or her life

90
00:01:58,291 --> 00:01:59,791
to a specific thing in Bitcoin

91
00:01:59,791 --> 00:02:01,000
that giving a talk about it

92
00:02:01,000 --> 00:02:02,166
and then afterwards, you know,

93
00:02:02,166 --> 00:02:03,500
casual beers and meetup.

94
00:02:03,500 --> 00:02:04,875
And I think we did that with us.

95
00:02:04,875 --> 00:02:05,666
All right.

96
00:02:05,666 --> 00:02:06,458
So since then

97
00:02:06,458 --> 00:02:07,375
it's it's been growing

98
00:02:07,375 --> 00:02:08,916
and it's been going, going great.

99
00:02:08,916 --> 00:02:10,041
So we have a core of

100
00:02:10,041 --> 00:02:11,916
let's say 40 people

101
00:02:11,916 --> 00:02:13,500
now that show up every single time

102
00:02:13,500 --> 00:02:14,125
we do a meta.

103
00:02:14,125 --> 00:02:15,333
We do it twice a month. Now.

104
00:02:15,333 --> 00:02:17,708
So things like good in Madrid,

105
00:02:17,708 --> 00:02:19,750
it's finally Bitcoin is moving.

106
00:02:19,750 --> 00:02:20,500
Good to here.

107
00:02:20,500 --> 00:02:21,375
So you either have an

108
00:02:21,375 --> 00:02:22,750
expert or someone like me.

109
00:02:26,083 --> 00:02:28,791
Your interpretation.

110
00:02:28,791 --> 00:02:30,333
Well anyway, that's good to hear.

111
00:02:30,333 --> 00:02:30,875
Well,

112
00:02:30,875 --> 00:02:32,166
since this is your first time

113
00:02:32,166 --> 00:02:33,791
on, I think,

114
00:02:33,791 --> 00:02:36,625
a little introduction is due to Mur

115
00:02:36,625 --> 00:02:38,375
and for our listeners.

116
00:02:38,375 --> 00:02:39,666
So don't know who you are,

117
00:02:39,666 --> 00:02:41,791
which I think is,

118
00:02:41,791 --> 00:02:43,333
a handful of them, at least.

119
00:02:43,333 --> 00:02:45,541
So can you give us the Tldr

120
00:02:45,541 --> 00:02:46,625
on, Kilian

121
00:02:46,625 --> 00:02:50,166
and what were your origin story,

122
00:02:50,375 --> 00:02:52,000
how you found Bitcoin

123
00:02:52,000 --> 00:02:53,916
and what you do now and all of that?

124
00:02:53,916 --> 00:02:55,083
Sure.

125
00:02:55,083 --> 00:02:57,875
Okay, so I'm Kilian, I'm with Boltz

126
00:02:57,875 --> 00:03:01,666
and I discovered Bitcoin

127
00:03:01,666 --> 00:03:04,708
back in 2015,

128
00:03:04,708 --> 00:03:07,541
early 16 back in China.

129
00:03:07,541 --> 00:03:09,708
So my my story is maybe a little bit

130
00:03:09,708 --> 00:03:12,708
different than a lot of other

131
00:03:12,833 --> 00:03:14,208
than the story of a lot of others

132
00:03:14,208 --> 00:03:15,791
because I got into Bitcoin

133
00:03:15,791 --> 00:03:16,958
by starting to work in Bitcoin

134
00:03:16,958 --> 00:03:17,708
without having a clue

135
00:03:17,708 --> 00:03:19,000
what it is or how it works.

136
00:03:19,000 --> 00:03:20,833
So, what happened in in

137
00:03:20,833 --> 00:03:22,958
the end was, I,

138
00:03:24,083 --> 00:03:25,583
I was working at the large

139
00:03:25,583 --> 00:03:27,333
German automotive company

140
00:03:27,333 --> 00:03:30,458
in China and, decided that

141
00:03:30,458 --> 00:03:33,458
this big corp thing is not for me.

142
00:03:33,791 --> 00:03:34,875
Switched to a smaller

143
00:03:34,875 --> 00:03:36,916
Chinese supplier,

144
00:03:36,916 --> 00:03:39,208
which decided to go bankrupt

145
00:03:39,208 --> 00:03:41,208
within three months.

146
00:03:41,208 --> 00:03:42,625
And then I was basically

147
00:03:42,625 --> 00:03:44,000
in the streets of Shanghai back

148
00:03:44,000 --> 00:03:46,125
then and was like, okay, well,

149
00:03:46,125 --> 00:03:46,833
what I'm going to

150
00:03:46,833 --> 00:03:48,125
what I'm going to do

151
00:03:48,125 --> 00:03:50,291
and, ended up going to a big fund

152
00:03:50,291 --> 00:03:51,541
meet up back in Shanghai.

153
00:03:51,541 --> 00:03:53,250
And that's where I met stepson

154
00:03:53,250 --> 00:03:54,333
and stepson Sam

155
00:03:54,333 --> 00:03:55,208
ho convinced me

156
00:03:55,208 --> 00:03:57,416
that my to come into office,

157
00:03:57,416 --> 00:03:58,000
the next day,

158
00:03:58,000 --> 00:03:58,958
he was working at PTC

159
00:03:58,958 --> 00:04:01,666
China back then, and

160
00:04:01,666 --> 00:04:02,250
a week later,

161
00:04:02,250 --> 00:04:03,041
I was working for them.

162
00:04:03,041 --> 00:04:03,833
So, that's

163
00:04:03,833 --> 00:04:05,000
basically how it happened.

164
00:04:05,000 --> 00:04:07,750
I studied at PTC China.

165
00:04:07,750 --> 00:04:09,458
Pretty early on.

166
00:04:09,458 --> 00:04:11,333
I've been with the mining pool.

167
00:04:11,333 --> 00:04:12,375
So taking care,

168
00:04:12,375 --> 00:04:14,083
you know, of the mining pool system,

169
00:04:14,083 --> 00:04:16,041
the interface, the website.

170
00:04:16,041 --> 00:04:17,000
Also actually,

171
00:04:17,000 --> 00:04:18,250
flew to Sichuan to visit

172
00:04:18,250 --> 00:04:19,208
a couple of mining firms

173
00:04:19,208 --> 00:04:21,333
that did a Docker, documentation

174
00:04:21,333 --> 00:04:23,083
with, TechCrunch actually

175
00:04:23,083 --> 00:04:24,833
find the link somewhere.

176
00:04:24,833 --> 00:04:25,500
So we're filming,

177
00:04:25,500 --> 00:04:27,208
like the mining scene in China

178
00:04:27,208 --> 00:04:28,416
was pretty wild

179
00:04:28,416 --> 00:04:29,458
and interesting times.

180
00:04:29,458 --> 00:04:30,791
And over the course of 2016,

181
00:04:30,791 --> 00:04:31,541
I started working on

182
00:04:31,541 --> 00:04:32,166
a mobile wallet.

183
00:04:32,166 --> 00:04:34,291
So I've been pretty focused on

184
00:04:34,291 --> 00:04:36,541
on wallets until then.

185
00:04:36,541 --> 00:04:39,166
I think it was sometime late 2017

186
00:04:39,166 --> 00:04:41,291
where I switched,

187
00:04:41,291 --> 00:04:43,000
switch companies to work

188
00:04:43,000 --> 00:04:45,125
on, starting to work on atomic swaps

189
00:04:45,125 --> 00:04:46,083
on a project

190
00:04:46,083 --> 00:04:47,375
that tried

191
00:04:47,375 --> 00:04:50,541
to build a Dex based on lightning.

192
00:04:50,708 --> 00:04:53,708
So remember, this was early 2018.

193
00:04:53,750 --> 00:04:55,000
So pretty ambitious

194
00:04:55,000 --> 00:04:56,291
to say, to say the least.

195
00:04:56,291 --> 00:04:58,125
Surprise that failed.

196
00:04:58,125 --> 00:04:59,166
But the good outcome

197
00:04:59,166 --> 00:05:00,333
of of that story

198
00:05:00,333 --> 00:05:02,291
is that we started bolts

199
00:05:02,291 --> 00:05:04,083
as a sidekick,

200
00:05:04,083 --> 00:05:04,625
of that

201
00:05:04,625 --> 00:05:05,791
lightning Dex, by the way,

202
00:05:05,791 --> 00:05:06,916
it was called Open Dex.

203
00:05:06,916 --> 00:05:07,833
The website might actually

204
00:05:07,833 --> 00:05:09,000
still be around somewhere.

205
00:05:10,000 --> 00:05:10,708
So bolts was a

206
00:05:10,708 --> 00:05:11,458
little bit of a

207
00:05:11,458 --> 00:05:12,708
of a band aid of a,

208
00:05:12,708 --> 00:05:14,458
of a little thing that we did

209
00:05:14,458 --> 00:05:15,583
on the site in order

210
00:05:15,583 --> 00:05:17,833
to help open Dex to manage,

211
00:05:17,833 --> 00:05:19,541
lightning liquidity.

212
00:05:19,541 --> 00:05:20,291
Then it turned out

213
00:05:20,291 --> 00:05:21,125
that this band aid,

214
00:05:21,125 --> 00:05:22,500
this little hobby

215
00:05:22,500 --> 00:05:24,208
that we had on the site,

216
00:05:24,208 --> 00:05:25,708
turned out to be quite the thing.

217
00:05:25,708 --> 00:05:27,375
So, in 2023

218
00:05:27,375 --> 00:05:30,125
is actually only last year.

219
00:05:30,125 --> 00:05:31,958
Michael Call, my co-founders,

220
00:05:31,958 --> 00:05:32,708
and I, we got together,

221
00:05:32,708 --> 00:05:33,916
and it's like, okay, guys,

222
00:05:33,916 --> 00:05:35,541
what are we doing with our lives?

223
00:05:35,541 --> 00:05:36,458
We looked at bolts.

224
00:05:36,458 --> 00:05:38,250
It's, was there running?

225
00:05:38,250 --> 00:05:39,000
We maintained it.

226
00:05:39,000 --> 00:05:40,500
We just basically maintained it all

227
00:05:40,500 --> 00:05:42,916
these years to be up and running.

228
00:05:42,916 --> 00:05:44,833
But it had organic growth.

229
00:05:44,833 --> 00:05:45,916
Even though we didn't launch

230
00:05:45,916 --> 00:05:46,666
any new features,

231
00:05:46,666 --> 00:05:48,041
it was really in pure

232
00:05:48,041 --> 00:05:49,625
maintenance mode.

233
00:05:49,625 --> 00:05:51,250
And, we,

234
00:05:51,250 --> 00:05:53,541
we felt that it deserved more.

235
00:05:53,541 --> 00:05:54,750
So, that's where we

236
00:05:54,750 --> 00:05:55,416
then decided

237
00:05:55,416 --> 00:05:56,583
to start going full time

238
00:05:56,583 --> 00:05:57,833
and see how far we can get.

239
00:05:57,833 --> 00:06:00,541
And wanted to have you years later.

240
00:06:00,541 --> 00:06:01,458
I would say we we're in a

241
00:06:01,458 --> 00:06:02,916
pretty decent position

242
00:06:02,916 --> 00:06:05,333
where bolts is, is doing well

243
00:06:05,333 --> 00:06:06,833
and we saw a lot of integrations.

244
00:06:06,833 --> 00:06:09,833
We launched a couple of new swaps.

245
00:06:09,875 --> 00:06:10,958
If you talk more about it

246
00:06:10,958 --> 00:06:11,666
later, I guess.

247
00:06:11,666 --> 00:06:14,166
But yeah, that's basically my story,

248
00:06:14,166 --> 00:06:15,375
I guess. Yeah, yeah.

249
00:06:15,375 --> 00:06:17,000
We're going to deep dive into what

250
00:06:17,000 --> 00:06:19,958
what bolts is, a little later on.

251
00:06:19,958 --> 00:06:20,583
But like,

252
00:06:20,583 --> 00:06:23,583
I'd like to call back to this,

253
00:06:23,666 --> 00:06:25,958
you say you, you started working for

254
00:06:25,958 --> 00:06:28,958
beta sec in 2015.

255
00:06:29,000 --> 00:06:29,958
Early 2016,

256
00:06:29,958 --> 00:06:31,458
I think it was February 2016.

257
00:06:31,458 --> 00:06:32,500
Yes, yes.

258
00:06:32,500 --> 00:06:33,333
And I think, well,

259
00:06:33,333 --> 00:06:34,791
most people don't know about this

260
00:06:34,791 --> 00:06:36,916
era in Bitcoin is that,

261
00:06:36,916 --> 00:06:39,166
China was super, super dominant,

262
00:06:39,166 --> 00:06:41,083
like it was almost,

263
00:06:41,083 --> 00:06:43,125
a Chinese project, like, they were.

264
00:06:43,125 --> 00:06:44,708
Yes, very much

265
00:06:44,708 --> 00:06:45,708
dominated by China,

266
00:06:45,708 --> 00:06:46,625
especially mining,

267
00:06:46,625 --> 00:06:48,833
but also other things. And I think,

268
00:06:50,250 --> 00:06:51,333
it BTCc

269
00:06:51,333 --> 00:06:54,791
was one of the only Chinese, mining.

270
00:06:55,208 --> 00:06:58,500
It's an ex mining or exchanges.

271
00:06:58,500 --> 00:06:59,458
Right.

272
00:06:59,458 --> 00:07:00,166
An exchange

273
00:07:00,166 --> 00:07:01,458
that also had a mining pool.

274
00:07:01,458 --> 00:07:02,666
Also had a mining pool.

275
00:07:02,666 --> 00:07:04,541
Exactly. Yes.

276
00:07:04,541 --> 00:07:06,875
That that actually could bridge

277
00:07:06,875 --> 00:07:08,291
that gap that had the

278
00:07:08,291 --> 00:07:08,791
that didn't

279
00:07:08,791 --> 00:07:09,875
have the language barrier

280
00:07:09,875 --> 00:07:10,750
because you had some

281
00:07:10,750 --> 00:07:12,708
English speakers, including you.

282
00:07:12,708 --> 00:07:14,083
Yes. Yours truly.

283
00:07:14,083 --> 00:07:15,250
Samson. Right.

284
00:07:15,250 --> 00:07:15,833
Yes.

285
00:07:15,833 --> 00:07:18,000
Well, Samson, Bobby, the CEO,

286
00:07:18,000 --> 00:07:19,541
I mean, he's he's American as well.

287
00:07:19,541 --> 00:07:20,833
So it was really this hybrid

288
00:07:20,833 --> 00:07:23,125
that made BTC or BTC China,

289
00:07:23,125 --> 00:07:24,500
special back then. Yes. Yeah.

290
00:07:24,500 --> 00:07:25,958
And were you a part

291
00:07:25,958 --> 00:07:27,875
of of all of these,

292
00:07:27,875 --> 00:07:29,583
meetings like during the Blocksize

293
00:07:29,583 --> 00:07:30,375
force and everything?

294
00:07:30,375 --> 00:07:31,208
There's,

295
00:07:31,208 --> 00:07:32,416
secretive meetings

296
00:07:32,416 --> 00:07:33,833
between minus and,

297
00:07:33,833 --> 00:07:35,125
Oh, no, these ones. No.

298
00:07:35,125 --> 00:07:35,833
So I've been part

299
00:07:35,833 --> 00:07:37,375
of the meetings within BTC.

300
00:07:37,375 --> 00:07:38,625
See that we're discussing.

301
00:07:38,625 --> 00:07:40,500
Oh, I, I mean, it was

302
00:07:40,500 --> 00:07:42,208
it was wild times back then.

303
00:07:42,208 --> 00:07:43,708
I remember

304
00:07:43,708 --> 00:07:45,666
meeting of BTC management

305
00:07:45,666 --> 00:07:47,166
sitting down

306
00:07:47,166 --> 00:07:50,208
and, Jeff Garcia just released,

307
00:07:51,458 --> 00:07:52,166
his version of,

308
00:07:52,166 --> 00:07:52,458
you know,

309
00:07:52,458 --> 00:07:53,458
SegWit to X,

310
00:07:53,458 --> 00:07:55,583
and there was a series to speed,

311
00:07:55,583 --> 00:07:57,750
the pay debate of

312
00:07:57,750 --> 00:07:58,500
is this Bitcoin?

313
00:07:58,500 --> 00:07:59,250
Are we running this?

314
00:07:59,250 --> 00:08:01,625
Is this the thing that we decide

315
00:08:01,625 --> 00:08:03,250
to be to be bitcoin or not?

316
00:08:03,250 --> 00:08:05,625
And it was highly confusing.

317
00:08:05,625 --> 00:08:06,541
And back then,

318
00:08:06,541 --> 00:08:07,375
I mean, in hindsight,

319
00:08:07,375 --> 00:08:08,583
everything looks so clear

320
00:08:08,583 --> 00:08:09,041
and you know

321
00:08:09,041 --> 00:08:11,833
and so I don't know evident.

322
00:08:11,833 --> 00:08:13,625
But back then it wasn't I,

323
00:08:13,625 --> 00:08:15,458
I was new to Bitcoin.

324
00:08:15,458 --> 00:08:16,833
But even people

325
00:08:16,833 --> 00:08:17,958
that have been in the game for,

326
00:08:17,958 --> 00:08:19,166
for many, many years,

327
00:08:19,166 --> 00:08:20,708
like Samson and Bobby,

328
00:08:20,708 --> 00:08:21,916
they were seriously confused

329
00:08:21,916 --> 00:08:23,666
of what to do, what to do with it.

330
00:08:23,666 --> 00:08:26,958
So high uncertainty if Bitcoin

331
00:08:26,958 --> 00:08:28,750
even survives this,

332
00:08:28,750 --> 00:08:31,708
to say to say the least. Right? So,

333
00:08:31,708 --> 00:08:33,583
I have not been part of any secret

334
00:08:33,583 --> 00:08:34,916
New York agreements,

335
00:08:34,916 --> 00:08:35,708
stuff like that.

336
00:08:35,708 --> 00:08:36,708
I've not been there

337
00:08:36,708 --> 00:08:38,333
and I'm gladly so.

338
00:08:38,333 --> 00:08:39,625
But within BTC,

339
00:08:39,625 --> 00:08:41,041
if I'm an exchange perspective,

340
00:08:41,041 --> 00:08:43,250
it was an incredibly confusing

341
00:08:43,250 --> 00:08:44,500
and frightening time

342
00:08:44,500 --> 00:08:46,208
because, you

343
00:08:46,208 --> 00:08:47,916
you clearly didn't

344
00:08:47,916 --> 00:08:48,750
know what to choose.

345
00:08:48,750 --> 00:08:50,416
Yeah, I'm so curious.

346
00:08:50,416 --> 00:08:52,041
Because you say that you started

347
00:08:52,041 --> 00:08:53,250
working for a Bitcoin company

348
00:08:53,250 --> 00:08:55,000
without knowing what Bitcoin was,

349
00:08:55,000 --> 00:08:56,583
and I think you're you're

350
00:08:56,583 --> 00:08:57,666
you're not alone.

351
00:08:59,000 --> 00:08:59,291
Yes.

352
00:08:59,291 --> 00:09:00,375
For people that started

353
00:09:00,375 --> 00:09:02,125
working Bitcoin back then.

354
00:09:02,125 --> 00:09:03,833
And to be honest

355
00:09:03,833 --> 00:09:05,833
I don't think anyone really know was

356
00:09:05,833 --> 00:09:08,958
knew what bitcoin was back then

357
00:09:08,958 --> 00:09:10,625
or that you

358
00:09:10,625 --> 00:09:12,125
could make the argument that

359
00:09:12,125 --> 00:09:13,708
still no one knows what it is.

360
00:09:13,708 --> 00:09:14,291
Exactly.

361
00:09:14,291 --> 00:09:14,916
Like we're

362
00:09:14,916 --> 00:09:16,208
we're still trying to figure out

363
00:09:16,208 --> 00:09:17,833
what this thing is,

364
00:09:17,833 --> 00:09:19,000
but in hindsight, it's

365
00:09:19,000 --> 00:09:20,666
this David and Goliath story

366
00:09:20,666 --> 00:09:22,833
with, like,

367
00:09:22,833 --> 00:09:24,500
this thing of a.

368
00:09:24,500 --> 00:09:24,791
Yeah.

369
00:09:24,791 --> 00:09:25,875
For those that don't know,

370
00:09:25,875 --> 00:09:27,333
the Blocksize wars

371
00:09:27,333 --> 00:09:29,833
were on the surface about

372
00:09:29,833 --> 00:09:30,958
should we increase

373
00:09:30,958 --> 00:09:32,291
the block size or not?

374
00:09:32,291 --> 00:09:33,416
But they were really about

375
00:09:33,416 --> 00:09:35,083
control of the network.

376
00:09:35,083 --> 00:09:36,291
And who was in charge

377
00:09:36,291 --> 00:09:39,208
of the network? And,

378
00:09:39,208 --> 00:09:42,125
it wasn't sort of,

379
00:09:42,125 --> 00:09:44,666
common knowledge at the time that

380
00:09:44,666 --> 00:09:45,791
that the users

381
00:09:45,791 --> 00:09:47,083
were really the masters

382
00:09:47,083 --> 00:09:47,958
of the miners

383
00:09:47,958 --> 00:09:49,500
and not the other way around.

384
00:09:49,500 --> 00:09:50,583
So I think a lot of the,

385
00:09:50,583 --> 00:09:51,500
a lot of the people

386
00:09:51,500 --> 00:09:52,833
at the mining companies

387
00:09:52,833 --> 00:09:55,125
thought that they had more power

388
00:09:55,125 --> 00:09:56,166
than they actually did

389
00:09:56,166 --> 00:09:57,958
over the network, which is.

390
00:09:57,958 --> 00:09:58,708
Just to.

391
00:09:58,708 --> 00:09:59,291
An extent,

392
00:09:59,291 --> 00:10:00,875
just to like all the big companies

393
00:10:00,875 --> 00:10:01,208
like the

394
00:10:01,208 --> 00:10:02,375
this New York agreement

395
00:10:02,375 --> 00:10:02,833
that everything

396
00:10:02,833 --> 00:10:04,666
like almost every big company

397
00:10:04,666 --> 00:10:06,791
assigned it, BitPay signed it, and,

398
00:10:09,083 --> 00:10:10,250
Jihan signed it and

399
00:10:10,250 --> 00:10:13,250
everyone signed it.

400
00:10:13,416 --> 00:10:14,583
But it didn't go through

401
00:10:14,583 --> 00:10:16,791
because the users didn't want it.

402
00:10:16,791 --> 00:10:18,041
And the markets

403
00:10:18,041 --> 00:10:19,666
clearly showed that, like,

404
00:10:19,666 --> 00:10:20,625
we don't want this thing.

405
00:10:20,625 --> 00:10:22,166
We want Bitcoin to be decentralized.

406
00:10:22,166 --> 00:10:23,708
Otherwise it doesn't work.

407
00:10:23,708 --> 00:10:25,333
And increasing the log size,

408
00:10:25,333 --> 00:10:26,166
of course, would have set

409
00:10:26,166 --> 00:10:27,791
the precedent for doing so again,

410
00:10:27,791 --> 00:10:30,500
which would have rapidly destroyed

411
00:10:30,500 --> 00:10:31,875
that decentralization

412
00:10:31,875 --> 00:10:33,458
and put the put Bitcoin

413
00:10:33,458 --> 00:10:36,041
in the hands of a few,

414
00:10:36,041 --> 00:10:37,125
powerful players.

415
00:10:37,125 --> 00:10:39,166
So luckily that I mean, to me,

416
00:10:39,166 --> 00:10:40,333
I'm telling this story

417
00:10:40,333 --> 00:10:41,166
because to me, though,

418
00:10:41,166 --> 00:10:44,166
this is the the pivotal event in my,

419
00:10:45,208 --> 00:10:46,750
like how I discovered Bitcoin

420
00:10:46,750 --> 00:10:47,666
because it wasn't

421
00:10:47,666 --> 00:10:49,791
until this unfolded the way it did

422
00:10:49,791 --> 00:10:51,500
that I was convinced that

423
00:10:51,500 --> 00:10:53,083
this is the future, that there's

424
00:10:53,083 --> 00:10:54,625
no way this, this unstoppable,

425
00:10:54,625 --> 00:10:56,166
truly unstoppable.

426
00:10:56,166 --> 00:10:58,208
So. So, yeah.

427
00:10:58,208 --> 00:10:59,041
100% agree.

428
00:10:59,041 --> 00:11:00,375
And, with what made the

429
00:11:00,375 --> 00:11:01,000
this situation

430
00:11:01,000 --> 00:11:02,083
even more special,

431
00:11:02,083 --> 00:11:03,291
not only being in China,

432
00:11:03,291 --> 00:11:05,583
but also being in BTC

433
00:11:05,583 --> 00:11:08,375
was that you had, Samsung in that.

434
00:11:08,375 --> 00:11:08,625
Right.

435
00:11:08,625 --> 00:11:09,333
So Samsung

436
00:11:09,333 --> 00:11:11,500
was one of the vocal applicators,

437
00:11:11,500 --> 00:11:12,333
like the first thing,

438
00:11:12,333 --> 00:11:13,291
one of the first things I got

439
00:11:13,291 --> 00:11:14,500
from was a was

440
00:11:14,500 --> 00:11:15,791
I had no idea what it was.

441
00:11:15,791 --> 00:11:17,750
But then I started, you know, like

442
00:11:17,750 --> 00:11:18,666
informing myself,

443
00:11:18,666 --> 00:11:19,666
what the hell is going on here?

444
00:11:19,666 --> 00:11:21,041
But I was right there.

445
00:11:21,041 --> 00:11:22,916
The source of information

446
00:11:22,916 --> 00:11:23,541
and also

447
00:11:23,541 --> 00:11:26,083
from a corporate standpoint,

448
00:11:26,083 --> 00:11:27,125
the came from the rest

449
00:11:27,125 --> 00:11:28,000
of the management team

450
00:11:28,000 --> 00:11:29,166
that wanted something different.

451
00:11:29,166 --> 00:11:30,875
So there was an internal conflict,

452
00:11:30,875 --> 00:11:32,166
going on as well. So,

453
00:11:33,583 --> 00:11:34,500
highly confusing.

454
00:11:34,500 --> 00:11:35,250
But in the end,

455
00:11:35,250 --> 00:11:36,166
I appreciate

456
00:11:36,166 --> 00:11:38,000
so much appreciated so much

457
00:11:38,000 --> 00:11:39,666
that I had the chance to be there

458
00:11:39,666 --> 00:11:40,375
and actually

459
00:11:40,375 --> 00:11:42,666
have all this information

460
00:11:42,666 --> 00:11:43,958
right at that time.

461
00:11:43,958 --> 00:11:45,250
Whereas I'll,

462
00:11:45,250 --> 00:11:45,583
you know,

463
00:11:45,583 --> 00:11:46,958
I think for, for many others,

464
00:11:46,958 --> 00:11:48,583
they just didn't have access to,

465
00:11:48,583 --> 00:11:50,166
to these kind of things.

466
00:11:50,166 --> 00:11:51,500
No, it's it's fantastic.

467
00:11:51,500 --> 00:11:53,208
You have like first hand information

468
00:11:53,208 --> 00:11:56,208
like you were there and

469
00:11:56,250 --> 00:11:58,000
I witnessed it from the sideline.

470
00:11:58,000 --> 00:11:59,500
I mean, I was witness

471
00:11:59,500 --> 00:12:01,833
it from, from my couch

472
00:12:01,833 --> 00:12:03,416
via whatever I read online,

473
00:12:03,416 --> 00:12:05,666
but the whole,

474
00:12:05,666 --> 00:12:06,791
I mean, even Samsung,

475
00:12:06,791 --> 00:12:08,291
Samsung has told me that his,

476
00:12:08,291 --> 00:12:10,000
his views on what Bitcoin was

477
00:12:10,000 --> 00:12:12,333
has changed a lot during that time.

478
00:12:12,333 --> 00:12:13,625
And even

479
00:12:13,625 --> 00:12:15,208
like even

480
00:12:15,208 --> 00:12:17,625
he wasn't like clearly on one side

481
00:12:17,625 --> 00:12:19,791
until until specific points

482
00:12:19,791 --> 00:12:22,791
and the events that unfolded.

483
00:12:23,083 --> 00:12:24,583
And it's it's so interesting

484
00:12:24,583 --> 00:12:26,083
because you have these developers

485
00:12:26,083 --> 00:12:27,958
which are mostly from the English

486
00:12:27,958 --> 00:12:29,083
speaking world,

487
00:12:29,083 --> 00:12:30,333
and then

488
00:12:30,333 --> 00:12:31,958
the hardware manufacturers

489
00:12:31,958 --> 00:12:33,708
and the the exchanges

490
00:12:33,708 --> 00:12:34,916
and the miners are

491
00:12:34,916 --> 00:12:36,333
mostly from the Chinese

492
00:12:36,333 --> 00:12:37,458
speaking world.

493
00:12:37,458 --> 00:12:40,333
And it's it's pretty hard to,

494
00:12:40,333 --> 00:12:40,958
to like bridge

495
00:12:40,958 --> 00:12:42,125
the gap between the two.

496
00:12:42,125 --> 00:12:42,916
And, yeah,

497
00:12:42,916 --> 00:12:44,083
I finally find it

498
00:12:44,083 --> 00:12:45,333
insanely fascinating.

499
00:12:45,333 --> 00:12:46,916
And, yeah, people

500
00:12:46,916 --> 00:12:48,083
should study it more on and,

501
00:12:49,083 --> 00:12:51,583
the, the story should get out more.

502
00:12:51,583 --> 00:12:53,416
There's a good book about it.

503
00:12:53,416 --> 00:12:54,333
But I believe

504
00:12:54,333 --> 00:12:55,625
there will be more books about it

505
00:12:55,625 --> 00:12:57,125
in the future. Yeah.

506
00:12:57,125 --> 00:12:57,958
Thank you.

507
00:12:57,958 --> 00:12:59,708
Professor. Okay. Very good to know.

508
00:12:59,708 --> 00:13:01,375
All right.

509
00:13:01,375 --> 00:13:03,208
We'll see

510
00:13:03,208 --> 00:13:04,541
anyway, where are we?

511
00:13:04,541 --> 00:13:05,666
Yeah. Volts.

512
00:13:05,666 --> 00:13:06,833
Can you tell us a little more

513
00:13:06,833 --> 00:13:08,375
about volts? What is? Bolts?

514
00:13:08,375 --> 00:13:09,541
And, Yeah.

515
00:13:09,541 --> 00:13:10,458
How has it changed

516
00:13:10,458 --> 00:13:12,208
since you went full time?

517
00:13:12,208 --> 00:13:13,083
Sure.

518
00:13:13,083 --> 00:13:14,500
So bolts started

519
00:13:14,500 --> 00:13:16,083
out, as I said, like a like a band.

520
00:13:16,083 --> 00:13:16,541
So basically

521
00:13:16,541 --> 00:13:17,541
the initial idea

522
00:13:17,541 --> 00:13:20,833
of bolts was to create a service

523
00:13:21,416 --> 00:13:22,750
that would connect

524
00:13:22,750 --> 00:13:24,333
to your lightning note

525
00:13:24,333 --> 00:13:25,500
and take care.

526
00:13:25,500 --> 00:13:27,208
The channels are in balance,

527
00:13:27,208 --> 00:13:28,333
basically.

528
00:13:28,333 --> 00:13:31,000
However, you wanted them to be like,

529
00:13:31,000 --> 00:13:33,000
have this amount of inbound minimum

530
00:13:33,000 --> 00:13:33,458
with this amount

531
00:13:33,458 --> 00:13:34,708
of abutment, minimum.

532
00:13:34,708 --> 00:13:35,666
So that's basically

533
00:13:35,666 --> 00:13:36,583
the idea of bolts.

534
00:13:36,583 --> 00:13:37,416
So it was really this

535
00:13:37,416 --> 00:13:39,458
tightly coupled lightning

536
00:13:39,458 --> 00:13:40,500
rebalancing service.

537
00:13:41,875 --> 00:13:44,166
We quickly,

538
00:13:44,166 --> 00:13:45,125
pretty quickly we,

539
00:13:45,125 --> 00:13:45,791
we opened it

540
00:13:45,791 --> 00:13:48,791
up, to the outer world though with

541
00:13:49,583 --> 00:13:50,375
with a website.

542
00:13:50,375 --> 00:13:51,916
So that's something that makes bolts

543
00:13:51,916 --> 00:13:53,583
very special that you not

544
00:13:53,583 --> 00:13:56,083
only technical people can access it

545
00:13:56,083 --> 00:13:56,666
on, but also

546
00:13:56,666 --> 00:13:58,041
it has a pretty easy

547
00:13:58,041 --> 00:14:00,791
to use, web interface,

548
00:14:00,791 --> 00:14:01,541
which is available

549
00:14:01,541 --> 00:14:02,833
at bolts that exchange.

550
00:14:02,833 --> 00:14:04,583
So it's a simple website with a,

551
00:14:04,583 --> 00:14:04,958
I want to go

552
00:14:04,958 --> 00:14:06,083
from lightning to bitcoin,

553
00:14:06,083 --> 00:14:08,541
and this is how much I want to swap.

554
00:14:08,541 --> 00:14:09,583
And we launched a website

555
00:14:09,583 --> 00:14:11,791
already back in 2019.

556
00:14:11,791 --> 00:14:13,041
So, back

557
00:14:13,041 --> 00:14:15,083
then it was a little bit unthinkable

558
00:14:15,083 --> 00:14:16,291
to do all the crypto magic

559
00:14:16,291 --> 00:14:17,708
that is required for this,

560
00:14:17,708 --> 00:14:19,000
for this service to function

561
00:14:19,000 --> 00:14:19,833
in a, in a web app.

562
00:14:19,833 --> 00:14:22,500
But, it was definitely possible.

563
00:14:22,500 --> 00:14:23,583
So then we spent some time

564
00:14:23,583 --> 00:14:24,708
working around the,

565
00:14:24,708 --> 00:14:26,875
the UX issues and,

566
00:14:26,875 --> 00:14:28,833
yeah, make it make it really,

567
00:14:28,833 --> 00:14:31,958
a decent, a decent enough UX.

568
00:14:31,958 --> 00:14:32,833
That being said,

569
00:14:32,833 --> 00:14:34,291
the first website was horrible.

570
00:14:34,291 --> 00:14:36,625
It was. Utterly. Ugly. Yeah.

571
00:14:36,625 --> 00:14:38,083
Ugly.

572
00:14:38,083 --> 00:14:39,791
Beyond imagination.

573
00:14:39,791 --> 00:14:41,125
I think I still have,

574
00:14:41,125 --> 00:14:42,041
we still in our blog,

575
00:14:42,041 --> 00:14:43,000
still somewhat have,

576
00:14:43,000 --> 00:14:44,750
we have a blog post up,

577
00:14:44,750 --> 00:14:45,625
where we have the three

578
00:14:45,625 --> 00:14:46,583
different versions of three

579
00:14:46,583 --> 00:14:47,875
different iterations of a web app

580
00:14:47,875 --> 00:14:48,458
to look at,

581
00:14:48,458 --> 00:14:49,416
and that it's just funny

582
00:14:49,416 --> 00:14:50,041
if we look back

583
00:14:50,041 --> 00:14:50,583
and how things were

584
00:14:50,583 --> 00:14:51,791
looking back then,

585
00:14:51,791 --> 00:14:52,416
but it was functional.

586
00:14:52,416 --> 00:14:53,458
That was the most important thing

587
00:14:53,458 --> 00:14:54,916
you could got moved between the,

588
00:14:54,916 --> 00:14:55,916
the Bitcoin main

589
00:14:55,916 --> 00:14:57,500
chain, and lightning tools

590
00:14:57,500 --> 00:14:58,958
to keep the channels balanced.

591
00:14:58,958 --> 00:15:00,125
And then

592
00:15:00,125 --> 00:15:02,125
this was basically unchanged

593
00:15:02,125 --> 00:15:03,416
until 2023.

594
00:15:03,416 --> 00:15:05,208
That was the,

595
00:15:05,208 --> 00:15:06,833
the premise to use people

596
00:15:06,833 --> 00:15:09,000
that the product had positioning

597
00:15:09,000 --> 00:15:11,500
and and 2023

598
00:15:11,500 --> 00:15:12,583
when we looked at it

599
00:15:12,583 --> 00:15:13,958
and said, okay, we want

600
00:15:13,958 --> 00:15:14,708
I want to put attention,

601
00:15:14,708 --> 00:15:15,708
we're basically think, okay,

602
00:15:15,708 --> 00:15:17,083
what what's what's the next step?

603
00:15:17,083 --> 00:15:17,833
What else?

604
00:15:17,833 --> 00:15:19,291
What else could bots do

605
00:15:19,291 --> 00:15:22,041
to help to help bitcoiners. And,

606
00:15:23,125 --> 00:15:26,125
then 2023 happened.

607
00:15:26,250 --> 00:15:28,208
You know, ordinals and,

608
00:15:28,208 --> 00:15:29,708
let's just call it mempool.

609
00:15:29,708 --> 00:15:32,541
Congestion happens like, every time.

610
00:15:32,541 --> 00:15:36,666
Go to WTF happened in February 2023.

611
00:15:36,666 --> 00:15:38,125
Very good website.

612
00:15:38,125 --> 00:15:38,541
Okay,

613
00:15:38,541 --> 00:15:39,666
I didn't know about this website,

614
00:15:39,666 --> 00:15:40,750
but yes.

615
00:15:40,750 --> 00:15:41,333
So that is

616
00:15:41,333 --> 00:15:42,583
that was the time

617
00:15:42,583 --> 00:15:43,833
where we saw the window

618
00:15:43,833 --> 00:15:44,708
of a window

619
00:15:44,708 --> 00:15:47,083
of opportunity for, for eclipse.

620
00:15:47,083 --> 00:15:49,958
So it became pretty evident

621
00:15:49,958 --> 00:15:51,291
that even for channel,

622
00:15:51,291 --> 00:15:52,583
especially for channel rebalancing,

623
00:15:52,583 --> 00:15:53,500
because that was

624
00:15:53,500 --> 00:15:54,458
that was the use case

625
00:15:54,458 --> 00:15:55,583
that we were talking about, okay,

626
00:15:55,583 --> 00:15:57,250
this was not functioning anymore.

627
00:15:57,250 --> 00:15:57,500
Right?

628
00:15:57,500 --> 00:15:58,125
So, we

629
00:15:58,125 --> 00:15:59,291
we increasingly noticed

630
00:15:59,291 --> 00:16:00,333
how the Lightning Network

631
00:16:00,333 --> 00:16:02,166
was becoming less reliable,

632
00:16:02,166 --> 00:16:03,833
because the rebalancing mechanism

633
00:16:03,833 --> 00:16:04,208
based on

634
00:16:04,208 --> 00:16:06,125
the mentioned was less reliable.

635
00:16:06,125 --> 00:16:07,250
It was not reliable at all.

636
00:16:07,250 --> 00:16:08,708
It didn't work right,

637
00:16:08,708 --> 00:16:09,500
which basically didn't

638
00:16:09,500 --> 00:16:10,541
work for an entire week.

639
00:16:10,541 --> 00:16:11,125
And you could notice

640
00:16:11,125 --> 00:16:11,958
how lightning payments

641
00:16:11,958 --> 00:16:13,916
were increasingly difficult

642
00:16:13,916 --> 00:16:14,666
to get through

643
00:16:14,666 --> 00:16:15,875
because channels were

644
00:16:15,875 --> 00:16:17,625
only imbalance.

645
00:16:17,625 --> 00:16:18,250
So I said, okay, what's

646
00:16:18,250 --> 00:16:19,250
what's the solution to that?

647
00:16:19,250 --> 00:16:20,166
And then we we looked

648
00:16:20,166 --> 00:16:21,375
at liquid again.

649
00:16:22,541 --> 00:16:24,583
Because I'm saying again,

650
00:16:24,583 --> 00:16:26,291
we had the out of pure

651
00:16:26,291 --> 00:16:27,791
technical interest.

652
00:16:27,791 --> 00:16:28,833
We started,

653
00:16:28,833 --> 00:16:29,916
with a liquid integration

654
00:16:29,916 --> 00:16:31,208
already a year before.

655
00:16:31,208 --> 00:16:33,750
There was just never the motivation.

656
00:16:33,750 --> 00:16:35,833
And, you know, not being full time,

657
00:16:35,833 --> 00:16:36,958
just being a hobby,

658
00:16:36,958 --> 00:16:38,583
that was just never the motivation

659
00:16:38,583 --> 00:16:40,625
to push it across the finish line.

660
00:16:40,625 --> 00:16:43,041
But 95% of the work was done.

661
00:16:43,041 --> 00:16:44,416
So, then we had the motivation say,

662
00:16:44,416 --> 00:16:44,916
okay, that

663
00:16:44,916 --> 00:16:46,208
this is actually

664
00:16:46,208 --> 00:16:47,916
this might be quite the solution

665
00:16:47,916 --> 00:16:48,750
for for letting

666
00:16:48,750 --> 00:16:49,750
channel rebalancing

667
00:16:49,750 --> 00:16:51,333
in, you know, in times

668
00:16:51,333 --> 00:16:52,375
where we have

669
00:16:52,375 --> 00:16:52,916
these sustained

670
00:16:52,916 --> 00:16:55,625
high, high fee, levels.

671
00:16:55,625 --> 00:16:56,208
So we did

672
00:16:56,208 --> 00:16:56,958
and we launched it

673
00:16:56,958 --> 00:16:58,583
maybe like a week

674
00:16:58,583 --> 00:17:00,333
or one of the five weeks after

675
00:17:00,333 --> 00:17:01,666
after the fee increase happened.

676
00:17:01,666 --> 00:17:02,708
So that impact was like,

677
00:17:02,708 --> 00:17:03,583
wow, these guys

678
00:17:03,583 --> 00:17:05,083
implemented all this in a week.

679
00:17:05,083 --> 00:17:06,791
And so it's not exactly true

680
00:17:06,791 --> 00:17:07,625
because we,

681
00:17:07,625 --> 00:17:09,791
you know, had this lying around for

682
00:17:09,791 --> 00:17:10,791
for more than a year.

683
00:17:10,791 --> 00:17:11,833
But this is where we launched

684
00:17:11,833 --> 00:17:12,250
it back.

685
00:17:12,250 --> 00:17:14,250
And I think it was end of May,

686
00:17:14,250 --> 00:17:16,041
May 30th or something like that,

687
00:17:16,041 --> 00:17:16,916
where we launched

688
00:17:16,916 --> 00:17:19,791
liquid swaps and went out with that.

689
00:17:19,791 --> 00:17:21,875
And then things started changing.

690
00:17:21,875 --> 00:17:23,916
We saw a lot of interest,

691
00:17:23,916 --> 00:17:25,041
porting and also criticism

692
00:17:25,041 --> 00:17:26,458
goes, you know, you

693
00:17:26,458 --> 00:17:27,583
you don't do these things right.

694
00:17:27,583 --> 00:17:28,500
If there's not a decent amount

695
00:17:28,500 --> 00:17:29,541
of criticism in the market.

696
00:17:31,041 --> 00:17:34,458
But, since then, I think what

697
00:17:35,000 --> 00:17:36,458
we changed the perception

698
00:17:36,458 --> 00:17:38,333
of, of the liquid network,

699
00:17:38,333 --> 00:17:39,833
we changed the way

700
00:17:39,833 --> 00:17:41,083
people think about it

701
00:17:41,083 --> 00:17:43,208
and how it's being used right now.

702
00:17:43,208 --> 00:17:45,041
Because as of today,

703
00:17:45,041 --> 00:17:46,083
we are not only doing

704
00:17:46,083 --> 00:17:47,291
channel rebalancing,

705
00:17:47,291 --> 00:17:50,166
we've also enabled a new kind of,

706
00:17:50,166 --> 00:17:51,208
wallet

707
00:17:51,208 --> 00:17:52,083
to interact

708
00:17:52,083 --> 00:17:54,000
with lightning using liquid swaps.

709
00:17:54,000 --> 00:17:54,666
So that's something

710
00:17:54,666 --> 00:17:56,083
that has been wildly successful

711
00:17:56,083 --> 00:17:58,458
in the past couple of months.

712
00:17:58,458 --> 00:18:01,458
So these things were developing,

713
00:18:02,791 --> 00:18:04,333
and, and the since we launched

714
00:18:04,333 --> 00:18:05,625
liquid one roughly

715
00:18:05,625 --> 00:18:07,166
one and a half years ago,

716
00:18:07,166 --> 00:18:07,833
another add on that

717
00:18:07,833 --> 00:18:10,208
we're doing right now is,

718
00:18:10,208 --> 00:18:12,041
is the BTC pay plugin.

719
00:18:12,041 --> 00:18:14,875
So that allows you to

720
00:18:14,875 --> 00:18:15,750
accept lightning

721
00:18:15,750 --> 00:18:17,375
without running a lightning node.

722
00:18:17,375 --> 00:18:19,083
So this not running a lightning

723
00:18:19,083 --> 00:18:20,708
node is becoming

724
00:18:20,708 --> 00:18:22,916
increasingly popular.

725
00:18:22,916 --> 00:18:25,208
Not that's you know,

726
00:18:25,208 --> 00:18:26,416
we need to support lightning.

727
00:18:26,416 --> 00:18:28,333
And we will always want to help

728
00:18:28,333 --> 00:18:29,791
lightning with rebalancing.

729
00:18:29,791 --> 00:18:31,500
But running a lightning

730
00:18:31,500 --> 00:18:32,291
node is simply it's

731
00:18:32,291 --> 00:18:33,041
not for everyone.

732
00:18:33,041 --> 00:18:34,166
And that's something we realized.

733
00:18:34,166 --> 00:18:34,625
And that's why

734
00:18:34,625 --> 00:18:35,750
we're increasing our product

735
00:18:35,750 --> 00:18:36,625
offering for

736
00:18:36,625 --> 00:18:37,916
for these kind of things.

737
00:18:37,916 --> 00:18:39,500
And it's also being accepted

738
00:18:39,500 --> 00:18:40,416
really well by the market,

739
00:18:40,416 --> 00:18:41,375
even though it's, better.

740
00:18:43,166 --> 00:18:44,958
So yeah, these are the, the,

741
00:18:44,958 --> 00:18:45,791
the things that we are

742
00:18:45,791 --> 00:18:46,625
that we're building out

743
00:18:46,625 --> 00:18:47,583
and the long term vision,

744
00:18:47,583 --> 00:18:48,083
that's probably

745
00:18:48,083 --> 00:18:49,375
how it should terminate

746
00:18:49,375 --> 00:18:49,875
with all of this.

747
00:18:49,875 --> 00:18:51,333
The long term vision

748
00:18:51,333 --> 00:18:54,041
of boards is to be

749
00:18:54,041 --> 00:18:55,625
the connecting

750
00:18:55,625 --> 00:18:56,250
the the place

751
00:18:56,250 --> 00:18:57,375
that connects the different

752
00:18:57,375 --> 00:18:58,625
Bitcoin layers.

753
00:18:58,625 --> 00:18:59,750
Saying between layers.

754
00:18:59,750 --> 00:19:00,458
Picture layer two

755
00:19:00,458 --> 00:19:01,583
is that's a different discussion

756
00:19:01,583 --> 00:19:03,333
we can have later.

757
00:19:03,333 --> 00:19:04,750
The different layers of Bitcoin.

758
00:19:04,750 --> 00:19:04,958
Yeah.

759
00:19:04,958 --> 00:19:07,958
So if you want to move your bitcoin

760
00:19:08,333 --> 00:19:09,250
from lightning

761
00:19:09,250 --> 00:19:11,291
to liquid to the main main chain

762
00:19:11,291 --> 00:19:13,250
and as of recently also to the roots

763
00:19:13,250 --> 00:19:15,000
looks like chain,

764
00:19:15,000 --> 00:19:17,416
bolts is the place to go.

765
00:19:17,416 --> 00:19:18,791
The very special thing

766
00:19:18,791 --> 00:19:19,625
or the thing

767
00:19:19,625 --> 00:19:20,875
that makes bolts specialty

768
00:19:20,875 --> 00:19:23,000
is that all this is non-custodial.

769
00:19:23,000 --> 00:19:23,833
So we are

770
00:19:23,833 --> 00:19:26,291
retaining the control of your funds

771
00:19:26,291 --> 00:19:27,791
throughout the swap process.

772
00:19:29,833 --> 00:19:30,333
Cool.

773
00:19:30,333 --> 00:19:32,083
So

774
00:19:32,083 --> 00:19:34,750
like, yeah, this is so fascinating

775
00:19:34,750 --> 00:19:35,666
because it's

776
00:19:35,666 --> 00:19:36,250
in a way

777
00:19:36,250 --> 00:19:39,250
it's a response to to an attack.

778
00:19:39,666 --> 00:19:40,625
Like if you view

779
00:19:40,625 --> 00:19:41,541
the ordinals thing

780
00:19:41,541 --> 00:19:42,333
as an attack

781
00:19:42,333 --> 00:19:45,333
on, on, on the on maintain

782
00:19:45,583 --> 00:19:46,625
that or an attack

783
00:19:46,625 --> 00:19:48,583
on lightning, really.

784
00:19:48,583 --> 00:19:50,291
Because it reduces the functionality

785
00:19:50,291 --> 00:19:51,125
of like lightning.

786
00:19:51,125 --> 00:19:52,416
So it's an inner

787
00:19:52,416 --> 00:19:53,708
it's sort of a response

788
00:19:53,708 --> 00:19:54,791
to an attack in the from.

789
00:19:54,791 --> 00:19:55,333
That's a

790
00:19:55,333 --> 00:19:56,791
do you view, do you view

791
00:19:56,791 --> 00:19:59,791
the ordinals thing as an attack.

792
00:20:02,166 --> 00:20:05,166
I'm not pro ordinals obviously.

793
00:20:05,500 --> 00:20:07,833
But I don't think I

794
00:20:07,833 --> 00:20:10,041
you few of them really as an attack.

795
00:20:10,041 --> 00:20:11,083
I don't think they were

796
00:20:11,083 --> 00:20:13,000
really intended as an attack.

797
00:20:13,000 --> 00:20:13,958
The result was right.

798
00:20:13,958 --> 00:20:15,083
So the result was large

799
00:20:15,083 --> 00:20:16,416
interruptions across the board.

800
00:20:16,416 --> 00:20:16,833
By the way,

801
00:20:16,833 --> 00:20:18,333
we had to shut down both services

802
00:20:18,333 --> 00:20:20,166
for four days in a row

803
00:20:20,166 --> 00:20:22,041
because all our working capital,

804
00:20:22,041 --> 00:20:23,000
the capital that we used for us

805
00:20:23,000 --> 00:20:24,333
was, was locked up in the method.

806
00:20:24,333 --> 00:20:25,666
So get out of money, guys.

807
00:20:25,666 --> 00:20:28,666
We you know, that that's, you know,

808
00:20:28,708 --> 00:20:29,708
replenish and replenish.

809
00:20:29,708 --> 00:20:31,208
It was okay. Like, there's a limit.

810
00:20:31,208 --> 00:20:32,166
We can't do that anymore.

811
00:20:32,166 --> 00:20:32,875
We have to shut off.

812
00:20:32,875 --> 00:20:33,875
So yeah, that was.

813
00:20:33,875 --> 00:20:35,041
And that we were not the only one.

814
00:20:35,041 --> 00:20:36,125
A lot of other services had the

815
00:20:36,125 --> 00:20:37,958
same issue in May 2023.

816
00:20:39,333 --> 00:20:40,208
That being said, I don't

817
00:20:40,208 --> 00:20:41,166
think it was

818
00:20:41,166 --> 00:20:42,333
it was meant to be

819
00:20:42,333 --> 00:20:44,375
this intentional attack.

820
00:20:44,375 --> 00:20:46,666
And I maybe I'm naive,

821
00:20:46,666 --> 00:20:47,833
but I believe in people

822
00:20:47,833 --> 00:20:48,791
just doing

823
00:20:48,791 --> 00:20:50,791
the cutting around to doing things.

824
00:20:50,791 --> 00:20:52,291
But it resulted to be one.

825
00:20:52,291 --> 00:20:53,833
And

826
00:20:53,833 --> 00:20:55,708
but instead of complaining about it,

827
00:20:55,708 --> 00:20:57,666
we chose to

828
00:20:57,666 --> 00:21:00,041
work on something that might help.

829
00:21:00,041 --> 00:21:00,750
Yeah.

830
00:21:00,750 --> 00:21:02,166
Which was the response

831
00:21:02,166 --> 00:21:04,833
to the actual attack back in 2017

832
00:21:04,833 --> 00:21:06,541
when when, Roger

833
00:21:06,541 --> 00:21:07,791
was promoting

834
00:21:07,791 --> 00:21:08,916
Bitcoin Cash and, like,

835
00:21:08,916 --> 00:21:10,875
clogging up the chain with like,

836
00:21:10,875 --> 00:21:13,083
this is before fee estimations

837
00:21:13,083 --> 00:21:13,625
and all of that.

838
00:21:13,625 --> 00:21:15,708
So, so you paid like $20

839
00:21:15,708 --> 00:21:17,125
per transactions

840
00:21:17,125 --> 00:21:20,458
per transaction back in 2017, which,

841
00:21:20,666 --> 00:21:22,750
which a very,

842
00:21:22,750 --> 00:21:24,458
very obviously was an attack.

843
00:21:24,458 --> 00:21:25,750
This this is not as obvious.

844
00:21:25,750 --> 00:21:27,833
It might, might just be,

845
00:21:27,833 --> 00:21:30,333
a consequence of,

846
00:21:30,333 --> 00:21:32,833
of decisions like,

847
00:21:32,833 --> 00:21:34,041
SegWit interpret this.

848
00:21:34,041 --> 00:21:35,583
This might be an unintended

849
00:21:35,583 --> 00:21:36,541
consequence of that,

850
00:21:36,541 --> 00:21:37,666
that the chain is now

851
00:21:37,666 --> 00:21:38,958
being used this way.

852
00:21:38,958 --> 00:21:40,833
And whether it's a deliberate attack

853
00:21:40,833 --> 00:21:41,833
or just a coincidence.

854
00:21:41,833 --> 00:21:43,208
What what is it called like?

855
00:21:43,208 --> 00:21:45,708
Occam's razor is one thing, but,

856
00:21:45,708 --> 00:21:46,958
the easiest explanation.

857
00:21:46,958 --> 00:21:47,333
But this,

858
00:21:47,333 --> 00:21:48,666
someone else's razor,

859
00:21:48,666 --> 00:21:49,750
which is like,

860
00:21:49,750 --> 00:21:50,708
never,

861
00:21:50,708 --> 00:21:53,708
never attribute to to malice that

862
00:21:53,875 --> 00:21:57,333
which can be explained by stupidity

863
00:21:57,333 --> 00:22:00,375
or stupidity is, they are stupid.

864
00:22:00,375 --> 00:22:00,875
I believe in that.

865
00:22:00,875 --> 00:22:02,750
Everyone agrees that they're stupid.

866
00:22:02,750 --> 00:22:04,750
Like, it's it's just,

867
00:22:04,750 --> 00:22:05,500
But but

868
00:22:05,500 --> 00:22:07,541
I find the similarities here,

869
00:22:09,291 --> 00:22:11,708
very fascinating that it's

870
00:22:11,708 --> 00:22:14,833
it it acts as, as a de facto attack,

871
00:22:14,833 --> 00:22:15,333
even though

872
00:22:15,333 --> 00:22:16,666
it might not have been an

873
00:22:16,666 --> 00:22:18,791
intended attack.

874
00:22:18,791 --> 00:22:21,291
But the immune system response

875
00:22:21,291 --> 00:22:22,791
from the network,

876
00:22:22,791 --> 00:22:24,041
you being the white

877
00:22:24,041 --> 00:22:26,166
blood cells there is,

878
00:22:26,166 --> 00:22:28,833
or you being the immune system

879
00:22:28,833 --> 00:22:31,833
of the network, you and others, like

880
00:22:32,375 --> 00:22:34,458
it is similar to what it was back

881
00:22:34,458 --> 00:22:35,250
then where like,

882
00:22:35,250 --> 00:22:37,958
just build around this. The stuff.

883
00:22:37,958 --> 00:22:38,750
The the net.

884
00:22:38,750 --> 00:22:39,666
It's a net positive.

885
00:22:39,666 --> 00:22:40,166
Definitely.

886
00:22:40,166 --> 00:22:41,583
So, I, I,

887
00:22:41,583 --> 00:22:43,625
I appreciate these kind of,

888
00:22:43,625 --> 00:22:44,708
events to happen

889
00:22:44,708 --> 00:22:45,875
because even though

890
00:22:45,875 --> 00:22:47,791
you lose a couple of nights of sleep

891
00:22:47,791 --> 00:22:48,583
and everything

892
00:22:48,583 --> 00:22:49,458
looks like doomsday

893
00:22:49,458 --> 00:22:52,416
for, for for some time,

894
00:22:52,416 --> 00:22:54,041
Bitcoin always comes out top right,

895
00:22:54,041 --> 00:22:55,541
and it forces us to,

896
00:22:55,541 --> 00:22:57,125
to to think out of the box

897
00:22:57,125 --> 00:22:58,458
and work on solutions

898
00:22:58,458 --> 00:22:59,916
that will mitigate this in future.

899
00:22:59,916 --> 00:23:01,166
So and mitigate

900
00:23:01,166 --> 00:23:02,666
a potentially even more drastic,

901
00:23:03,666 --> 00:23:05,208
consequences.

902
00:23:05,208 --> 00:23:07,416
Yeah. So, so,

903
00:23:07,416 --> 00:23:09,875
this takes us into this,

904
00:23:09,875 --> 00:23:12,041
question,

905
00:23:12,041 --> 00:23:13,750
about centralization.

906
00:23:13,750 --> 00:23:17,541
Like, how is bolts, helping

907
00:23:18,041 --> 00:23:19,166
decentralization

908
00:23:19,166 --> 00:23:21,875
rather than being centralized itself

909
00:23:21,875 --> 00:23:22,541
like it's

910
00:23:22,541 --> 00:23:24,250
bolts are so liquid,

911
00:23:24,250 --> 00:23:25,541
as you can argue,

912
00:23:25,541 --> 00:23:26,916
how centralized that is.

913
00:23:26,916 --> 00:23:27,375
But like,

914
00:23:27,375 --> 00:23:28,708
what's the arguments there

915
00:23:28,708 --> 00:23:29,916
and how much do you think

916
00:23:29,916 --> 00:23:31,500
about decentralization

917
00:23:31,500 --> 00:23:32,916
was what,

918
00:23:32,916 --> 00:23:34,916
issues when you make decisions

919
00:23:34,916 --> 00:23:36,666
in the company?

920
00:23:36,666 --> 00:23:37,625
Sure.

921
00:23:37,625 --> 00:23:38,416
First I want to say

922
00:23:38,416 --> 00:23:39,875
we are for profit company.

923
00:23:39,875 --> 00:23:40,166
Right.

924
00:23:40,166 --> 00:23:41,333
So, bolts.

925
00:23:41,333 --> 00:23:44,166
Bolts is not a, project anymore.

926
00:23:44,166 --> 00:23:47,166
It is, serious for profit venture.

927
00:23:47,500 --> 00:23:49,333
And even with a legal entity,

928
00:23:49,333 --> 00:23:51,666
we're headquartered in El Salvador.

929
00:23:51,666 --> 00:23:53,500
We pay taxes there.

930
00:23:53,500 --> 00:23:55,500
So the this is

931
00:23:55,500 --> 00:23:56,875
this is a serious business venture

932
00:23:56,875 --> 00:23:59,875
since since one and a half years.

933
00:24:00,583 --> 00:24:02,166
So we have an interest and

934
00:24:02,166 --> 00:24:04,625
and making a profit and,

935
00:24:04,625 --> 00:24:06,708
and in my opinion, that much that

936
00:24:06,708 --> 00:24:08,375
that really should be okay.

937
00:24:10,333 --> 00:24:11,000
And it's,

938
00:24:11,000 --> 00:24:13,625
it's making us independent.

939
00:24:13,625 --> 00:24:14,750
More independent

940
00:24:14,750 --> 00:24:17,250
than if we were purely,

941
00:24:17,250 --> 00:24:19,375
based, you know,

942
00:24:19,375 --> 00:24:20,625
funding, funding ourselves

943
00:24:20,625 --> 00:24:22,208
by a grants or something with that.

944
00:24:22,208 --> 00:24:24,791
So you see that,

945
00:24:24,791 --> 00:24:26,000
a profitable,

946
00:24:26,000 --> 00:24:27,291
a profitable business model

947
00:24:27,291 --> 00:24:29,708
that develops software,

948
00:24:29,708 --> 00:24:30,416
actually has.

949
00:24:30,416 --> 00:24:31,875
Yeah, has,

950
00:24:31,875 --> 00:24:33,041
has a brighter future

951
00:24:33,041 --> 00:24:34,500
than someone that is depending

952
00:24:34,500 --> 00:24:35,833
on the mercy

953
00:24:35,833 --> 00:24:36,666
end of the grant of

954
00:24:36,666 --> 00:24:38,416
of of someone else.

955
00:24:38,416 --> 00:24:39,625
That being said,

956
00:24:39,625 --> 00:24:40,500
even though we are,

957
00:24:40,500 --> 00:24:41,291
for profit company,

958
00:24:41,291 --> 00:24:42,375
we still decided

959
00:24:42,375 --> 00:24:44,083
or we especially decided

960
00:24:44,083 --> 00:24:45,791
to open source our code.

961
00:24:45,791 --> 00:24:46,166
And that

962
00:24:46,166 --> 00:24:46,500
is part

963
00:24:46,500 --> 00:24:49,500
of our decentralization, strategy.

964
00:24:49,958 --> 00:24:52,958
It actually the topic came up,

965
00:24:52,958 --> 00:24:54,750
when we were talking with breeze

966
00:24:54,750 --> 00:24:56,000
or when I was talking to Roy

967
00:24:56,000 --> 00:24:57,333
from Breece,

968
00:24:57,333 --> 00:24:59,375
to integrate bolts into their new,

969
00:24:59,375 --> 00:25:00,250
liquid SDK.

970
00:25:00,250 --> 00:25:02,041
So the the topic came up

971
00:25:02,041 --> 00:25:04,166
basically saying, hey, Killian,

972
00:25:04,166 --> 00:25:05,000
bolts are super cool.

973
00:25:05,000 --> 00:25:06,375
It's a nice service,

974
00:25:06,375 --> 00:25:07,500
but what if it goes down?

975
00:25:07,500 --> 00:25:09,083
Or what if you decide to

976
00:25:09,083 --> 00:25:10,416
to raise your fees? Tanks.

977
00:25:10,416 --> 00:25:11,291
Like what

978
00:25:11,291 --> 00:25:12,500
what what am I going to do?

979
00:25:12,500 --> 00:25:13,958
I'm locked in.

980
00:25:13,958 --> 00:25:16,000
And after a couple of back

981
00:25:16,000 --> 00:25:17,000
and forth,

982
00:25:17,000 --> 00:25:17,750
it was clear that

983
00:25:17,750 --> 00:25:18,791
that we had to open source

984
00:25:18,791 --> 00:25:20,583
all our code, including the backend,

985
00:25:20,583 --> 00:25:22,708
so that if push comes to shove

986
00:25:22,708 --> 00:25:23,750
and we have to shut down,

987
00:25:23,750 --> 00:25:24,875
or if our service

988
00:25:24,875 --> 00:25:26,458
quality degrades and,

989
00:25:26,458 --> 00:25:28,000
you know, we're doing a shitty job

990
00:25:28,000 --> 00:25:29,291
in the end,

991
00:25:29,291 --> 00:25:31,583
breeze has to have the option

992
00:25:31,583 --> 00:25:33,125
to spin up,

993
00:25:33,125 --> 00:25:34,750
bolts backend by themselves

994
00:25:34,750 --> 00:25:36,125
and, continue to service.

995
00:25:36,125 --> 00:25:36,916
They have a pretty well

996
00:25:36,916 --> 00:25:38,125
connected lightning not already.

997
00:25:38,125 --> 00:25:40,000
So for them, for,

998
00:25:40,000 --> 00:25:41,083
for for companies

999
00:25:41,083 --> 00:25:41,833
and professionals

1000
00:25:41,833 --> 00:25:44,291
like like breeze, it's, it's

1001
00:25:44,291 --> 00:25:44,916
they can do that

1002
00:25:44,916 --> 00:25:46,375
and they have the resources

1003
00:25:46,375 --> 00:25:46,916
to do that.

1004
00:25:48,375 --> 00:25:49,208
I was also convinced

1005
00:25:49,208 --> 00:25:50,041
actually by ourselves

1006
00:25:50,041 --> 00:25:51,458
because we ourselves

1007
00:25:51,458 --> 00:25:52,750
do not use

1008
00:25:52,750 --> 00:25:54,750
any think fosters

1009
00:25:54,750 --> 00:25:56,125
for mission critical stuff.

1010
00:25:56,125 --> 00:25:56,750
Nothing. Right.

1011
00:25:56,750 --> 00:25:57,875
So everything that is somewhat

1012
00:25:57,875 --> 00:25:59,166
critical has to be open

1013
00:25:59,166 --> 00:26:00,125
source software.

1014
00:26:00,125 --> 00:26:01,125
We sometimes use the service,

1015
00:26:01,125 --> 00:26:01,666
we pay for it,

1016
00:26:01,666 --> 00:26:02,708
but we want to be able

1017
00:26:02,708 --> 00:26:03,583
to run it ourselves

1018
00:26:03,583 --> 00:26:04,208
because we don't know

1019
00:26:04,208 --> 00:26:05,166
what will happen to the service.

1020
00:26:05,166 --> 00:26:05,916
So it was really a

1021
00:26:05,916 --> 00:26:07,625
no brainer in the end.

1022
00:26:07,625 --> 00:26:10,625
So open sourcing was was step one

1023
00:26:10,708 --> 00:26:13,083
and making, and, and ensuring

1024
00:26:13,083 --> 00:26:14,708
that integrations that integrate,

1025
00:26:14,708 --> 00:26:16,708
bolts via its API, can,

1026
00:26:16,708 --> 00:26:18,166
can run the service by themselves,

1027
00:26:18,166 --> 00:26:19,750
should they have to.

1028
00:26:19,750 --> 00:26:20,541
The idea is, though,

1029
00:26:20,541 --> 00:26:21,458
that they don't

1030
00:26:21,458 --> 00:26:22,458
necessarily want to do that

1031
00:26:22,458 --> 00:26:24,041
because it's not core to their

1032
00:26:24,041 --> 00:26:24,625
their business.

1033
00:26:24,625 --> 00:26:25,750
They're actually focusing

1034
00:26:25,750 --> 00:26:26,708
on their business model.

1035
00:26:26,708 --> 00:26:27,291
They want to be good

1036
00:26:27,291 --> 00:26:27,875
in their business

1037
00:26:27,875 --> 00:26:29,208
and use yours as bolts

1038
00:26:29,208 --> 00:26:30,250
and basically have

1039
00:26:30,250 --> 00:26:33,000
just the option as a, as a backup.

1040
00:26:33,000 --> 00:26:35,708
Nevertheless, that, it inspired,

1041
00:26:35,708 --> 00:26:37,083
a couple of other technical

1042
00:26:37,083 --> 00:26:37,625
folks out there

1043
00:26:37,625 --> 00:26:38,708
to spin up their own backends.

1044
00:26:38,708 --> 00:26:40,166
So right now, as of today,

1045
00:26:40,166 --> 00:26:40,916
we have at least

1046
00:26:40,916 --> 00:26:42,083
a handful more bolts

1047
00:26:42,083 --> 00:26:44,041
backends running out there.

1048
00:26:44,041 --> 00:26:45,500
And the great thing about,

1049
00:26:45,500 --> 00:26:46,958
about this is,

1050
00:26:46,958 --> 00:26:47,833
they're all maintained

1051
00:26:47,833 --> 00:26:49,416
the same API key.

1052
00:26:49,416 --> 00:26:50,375
So basically

1053
00:26:50,375 --> 00:26:51,708
what you can do is just, you know,

1054
00:26:51,708 --> 00:26:53,666
switch the domain to someone else

1055
00:26:53,666 --> 00:26:55,583
and, you can continue operating.

1056
00:26:55,583 --> 00:26:56,250
Should bolts

1057
00:26:56,250 --> 00:26:57,583
not be to your liking anymore

1058
00:26:57,583 --> 00:26:58,916
or should you go down

1059
00:26:58,916 --> 00:27:00,083
so that that is possible

1060
00:27:00,083 --> 00:27:00,958
as of today.

1061
00:27:00,958 --> 00:27:03,958
And I'm very happy glad

1062
00:27:04,208 --> 00:27:05,083
that this happened.

1063
00:27:06,291 --> 00:27:06,958
Because now

1064
00:27:06,958 --> 00:27:07,458
I have a

1065
00:27:07,458 --> 00:27:08,416
good response to these

1066
00:27:08,416 --> 00:27:09,958
these kind of kind of questions.

1067
00:27:09,958 --> 00:27:11,583
So yes, Wild Bolts

1068
00:27:11,583 --> 00:27:13,125
itself is centralized, right?

1069
00:27:13,125 --> 00:27:14,166
It's a centralized server.

1070
00:27:14,166 --> 00:27:15,000
It's,

1071
00:27:15,000 --> 00:27:16,833
it's a user interacting with bolts

1072
00:27:16,833 --> 00:27:17,500
as a service.

1073
00:27:17,500 --> 00:27:18,625
It's,

1074
00:27:18,625 --> 00:27:19,625
an API call

1075
00:27:19,625 --> 00:27:21,291
going to a central, central server.

1076
00:27:21,291 --> 00:27:22,041
And that

1077
00:27:22,041 --> 00:27:23,500
piece itself is centralized.

1078
00:27:23,500 --> 00:27:24,666
And that's centralized for a reason,

1079
00:27:24,666 --> 00:27:26,875
because there is no good way to,

1080
00:27:26,875 --> 00:27:28,333
to centralize that.

1081
00:27:28,333 --> 00:27:28,958
As of today,

1082
00:27:28,958 --> 00:27:30,125
with the lightning and Bitcoin

1083
00:27:30,125 --> 00:27:31,750
just being, you know,

1084
00:27:31,750 --> 00:27:33,250
like how they are and,

1085
00:27:33,250 --> 00:27:34,333
and technically it's

1086
00:27:34,333 --> 00:27:35,625
just not really possible.

1087
00:27:35,625 --> 00:27:36,458
That's how it is.

1088
00:27:36,458 --> 00:27:37,375
But what we can do is

1089
00:27:37,375 --> 00:27:39,333
we can decentralize,

1090
00:27:39,333 --> 00:27:40,500
the control of the code,

1091
00:27:40,500 --> 00:27:41,916
which we open sourced and then,

1092
00:27:41,916 --> 00:27:42,375
you know,

1093
00:27:42,375 --> 00:27:43,625
have DevOps, a little bit

1094
00:27:43,625 --> 00:27:44,500
of an ecosystem

1095
00:27:44,500 --> 00:27:46,833
of, of bolts around pools.

1096
00:27:46,833 --> 00:27:48,875
Now, I absolutely love that.

1097
00:27:48,875 --> 00:27:51,125
And I actually prefer, companies

1098
00:27:51,125 --> 00:27:51,833
to be

1099
00:27:51,833 --> 00:27:52,666
for profit

1100
00:27:52,666 --> 00:27:53,583
than to be

1101
00:27:53,583 --> 00:27:55,458
like funded by charities,

1102
00:27:55,458 --> 00:27:57,333
because that, in my opinion,

1103
00:27:57,333 --> 00:28:00,125
that is, has a higher risk of being

1104
00:28:00,125 --> 00:28:01,083
like, hijacked,

1105
00:28:02,291 --> 00:28:03,125
because you don't want to

1106
00:28:03,125 --> 00:28:04,333
bite the hand that feeds you

1107
00:28:04,333 --> 00:28:07,333
because you're afraid of not getting

1108
00:28:08,250 --> 00:28:08,916
the grants, which.

1109
00:28:08,916 --> 00:28:10,583
Happens like we have seen it.

1110
00:28:10,583 --> 00:28:12,125
We have swift seen it. So, yes.

1111
00:28:12,125 --> 00:28:13,250
I wouldn't mention

1112
00:28:13,250 --> 00:28:15,125
a specific company, but,

1113
00:28:15,125 --> 00:28:16,083
I know of,

1114
00:28:16,083 --> 00:28:17,333
you know, block explorers

1115
00:28:17,333 --> 00:28:19,541
and stuff that have

1116
00:28:19,541 --> 00:28:21,666
suffered this fate lately.

1117
00:28:21,666 --> 00:28:23,375
Anyway,

1118
00:28:23,375 --> 00:28:25,625
so, so, the,

1119
00:28:25,625 --> 00:28:27,208
Or maybe I shouldn't

1120
00:28:27,208 --> 00:28:29,375
throw too many stones here.

1121
00:28:29,375 --> 00:28:32,000
But the thing is that

1122
00:28:32,000 --> 00:28:33,208
this is the way to go

1123
00:28:33,208 --> 00:28:33,833
from a, like,

1124
00:28:33,833 --> 00:28:34,375
an anarcho

1125
00:28:34,375 --> 00:28:36,875
capitalist ethics perspective.

1126
00:28:36,875 --> 00:28:38,500
Open sourcing everything

1127
00:28:38,500 --> 00:28:39,250
and just selling

1128
00:28:39,250 --> 00:28:39,875
the service

1129
00:28:39,875 --> 00:28:42,041
is the obvious ethical way

1130
00:28:42,041 --> 00:28:43,000
to go about things.

1131
00:28:43,000 --> 00:28:43,958
And it's also the

1132
00:28:43,958 --> 00:28:45,666
the way to get the market signal

1133
00:28:45,666 --> 00:28:47,250
if you're doing the right thing

1134
00:28:47,250 --> 00:28:48,000
or not,

1135
00:28:48,000 --> 00:28:50,208
because of course, information

1136
00:28:50,208 --> 00:28:51,041
should be free.

1137
00:28:51,041 --> 00:28:53,333
But the information,

1138
00:28:53,333 --> 00:28:55,125
the code is not the service

1139
00:28:55,125 --> 00:28:55,708
you're selling.

1140
00:28:55,708 --> 00:28:57,166
You're selling like the.

1141
00:28:57,166 --> 00:28:58,541
But we had to realize that,

1142
00:28:58,541 --> 00:28:58,750
you know,

1143
00:28:58,750 --> 00:29:00,041
so that that was actually

1144
00:29:00,041 --> 00:29:01,333
part of our journey was

1145
00:29:01,333 --> 00:29:02,291
and in the discussion

1146
00:29:02,291 --> 00:29:02,916
with Roy,

1147
00:29:02,916 --> 00:29:04,500
I had to realize

1148
00:29:04,500 --> 00:29:06,250
that we're not selling a service.

1149
00:29:06,250 --> 00:29:07,000
Oh, sorry,

1150
00:29:07,000 --> 00:29:08,083
not selling a software,

1151
00:29:08,083 --> 00:29:09,250
but we are selling a service.

1152
00:29:09,250 --> 00:29:10,083
We are selling

1153
00:29:10,083 --> 00:29:12,416
we're and our USP is the operations

1154
00:29:12,416 --> 00:29:13,916
that we manage our liquidity

1155
00:29:13,916 --> 00:29:15,416
well, that we have good uptime.

1156
00:29:15,416 --> 00:29:16,791
You know that things are reliable

1157
00:29:16,791 --> 00:29:17,958
and stable, rock solid.

1158
00:29:17,958 --> 00:29:19,000
That's basically what,

1159
00:29:19,000 --> 00:29:20,041
what what we are selling.

1160
00:29:20,041 --> 00:29:22,708
And not just a software itself. No.

1161
00:29:22,708 --> 00:29:23,208
And this is

1162
00:29:23,208 --> 00:29:24,250
this is what I love

1163
00:29:24,250 --> 00:29:25,833
about the free market mechanism,

1164
00:29:25,833 --> 00:29:27,875
because in the end it leads.

1165
00:29:27,875 --> 00:29:29,500
It leads intelligent people

1166
00:29:29,500 --> 00:29:31,291
to make ethical decisions

1167
00:29:31,291 --> 00:29:32,666
because it wins out,

1168
00:29:34,708 --> 00:29:35,458
especially now

1169
00:29:35,458 --> 00:29:36,708
that we have a Bitcoin

1170
00:29:36,708 --> 00:29:39,250
then that's sort of turbocharged.

1171
00:29:39,250 --> 00:29:42,125
And no, I just love it.

1172
00:29:42,125 --> 00:29:44,000
Luke,

1173
00:29:44,000 --> 00:29:45,166
I think this is the point

1174
00:29:45,166 --> 00:29:46,625
where you come in.

1175
00:29:46,625 --> 00:29:47,250
Yeah, yeah.

1176
00:29:47,250 --> 00:29:48,875
And like a lot of this stuff

1177
00:29:48,875 --> 00:29:50,416
is building

1178
00:29:50,416 --> 00:29:52,250
from from kind of my, my perspective

1179
00:29:52,250 --> 00:29:55,250
as a, as a user of bots in, in,

1180
00:29:55,416 --> 00:29:57,708
a couple of ways,

1181
00:29:57,708 --> 00:29:59,958
I guess just kind of digging into

1182
00:29:59,958 --> 00:30:00,833
some of the,

1183
00:30:00,833 --> 00:30:03,250
the experience of, of bots

1184
00:30:03,250 --> 00:30:05,291
from a user's perspective.

1185
00:30:05,291 --> 00:30:06,708
I, I have a starter question

1186
00:30:06,708 --> 00:30:07,833
because because one of the,

1187
00:30:07,833 --> 00:30:08,500
one of the ways

1188
00:30:08,500 --> 00:30:10,333
that that I use bots

1189
00:30:10,333 --> 00:30:11,916
personally is, is, yeah,

1190
00:30:11,916 --> 00:30:14,125
this this swap in and out of,

1191
00:30:14,125 --> 00:30:18,125
of lightning and that, one,

1192
00:30:18,250 --> 00:30:19,250
one practical question

1193
00:30:19,250 --> 00:30:19,750
I have is

1194
00:30:19,750 --> 00:30:20,958
what direction,

1195
00:30:20,958 --> 00:30:22,125
does, does everything

1196
00:30:22,125 --> 00:30:23,166
usually flow into.

1197
00:30:23,166 --> 00:30:23,500
Is it,

1198
00:30:23,500 --> 00:30:24,000
does it does

1199
00:30:24,000 --> 00:30:25,166
it change over time or is it,

1200
00:30:25,166 --> 00:30:28,375
is it the, going from lightning out?

1201
00:30:28,958 --> 00:30:30,000
What do you see the,

1202
00:30:30,000 --> 00:30:32,166
the most of in volts.

1203
00:30:32,166 --> 00:30:33,958
So that changed over time.

1204
00:30:33,958 --> 00:30:36,958
Not super significantly just yet.

1205
00:30:37,083 --> 00:30:38,916
But, the,

1206
00:30:38,916 --> 00:30:39,791
all the time where

1207
00:30:39,791 --> 00:30:41,291
we've been mainly focused on

1208
00:30:41,291 --> 00:30:42,875
lightning channel rebalancing, like,

1209
00:30:42,875 --> 00:30:43,708
you know, as a service

1210
00:30:43,708 --> 00:30:44,250
for lightning

1211
00:30:44,250 --> 00:30:45,083
providers,

1212
00:30:45,083 --> 00:30:46,291
we had,

1213
00:30:46,291 --> 00:30:48,125
the vast majority of,

1214
00:30:48,125 --> 00:30:49,416
of, of the swaps

1215
00:30:49,416 --> 00:30:50,583
were,

1216
00:30:50,583 --> 00:30:51,833
were going from lightning

1217
00:30:51,833 --> 00:30:52,541
to the chain,

1218
00:30:52,541 --> 00:30:53,875
meaning we were,

1219
00:30:53,875 --> 00:30:54,875
receiving lightning

1220
00:30:54,875 --> 00:30:57,458
and it was paying out, by the chain.

1221
00:30:57,458 --> 00:30:58,833
So from a from, lightning,

1222
00:30:58,833 --> 00:30:59,833
no perspective is

1223
00:30:59,833 --> 00:31:02,583
the typical get inbound liquidity,

1224
00:31:02,583 --> 00:31:03,083
use case.

1225
00:31:03,083 --> 00:31:04,958
That was the majority of the volume.

1226
00:31:04,958 --> 00:31:07,125
Now that we have more use cases,

1227
00:31:07,125 --> 00:31:08,708
going on that that's that's

1228
00:31:08,708 --> 00:31:09,416
lightning,

1229
00:31:09,416 --> 00:31:10,166
slightly changing,

1230
00:31:10,166 --> 00:31:11,166
for example, with a wallet

1231
00:31:11,166 --> 00:31:11,666
with a wallet

1232
00:31:11,666 --> 00:31:13,000
integration specifically,

1233
00:31:13,000 --> 00:31:13,666
if you look at one

1234
00:31:13,666 --> 00:31:15,291
wallet integration,

1235
00:31:15,291 --> 00:31:16,375
it's pretty balanced, actually.

1236
00:31:16,375 --> 00:31:18,125
So in and out is

1237
00:31:18,125 --> 00:31:19,666
in and out of balance.

1238
00:31:19,666 --> 00:31:21,291
So namely you have the Aqua Wallet,

1239
00:31:21,291 --> 00:31:22,125
which is a

1240
00:31:22,125 --> 00:31:23,500
pretty popular wallet by now.

1241
00:31:24,458 --> 00:31:26,791
So users are just

1242
00:31:26,791 --> 00:31:27,666
makes a lot of sense

1243
00:31:27,666 --> 00:31:28,333
if you think about it.

1244
00:31:28,333 --> 00:31:31,083
They sent in the way amount that,

1245
00:31:31,083 --> 00:31:31,333
that would

1246
00:31:31,333 --> 00:31:32,625
they deposit the same amount

1247
00:31:32,625 --> 00:31:34,458
that they're taking out.

1248
00:31:34,458 --> 00:31:36,791
So, that's also the

1249
00:31:36,791 --> 00:31:38,541
the reason why we,

1250
00:31:38,541 --> 00:31:40,083
expanding our integrations to more

1251
00:31:40,083 --> 00:31:40,750
use cases

1252
00:31:40,750 --> 00:31:41,666
in order to balance,

1253
00:31:41,666 --> 00:31:42,791
balance up the, the flow

1254
00:31:42,791 --> 00:31:44,416
a little bit because,

1255
00:31:44,416 --> 00:31:45,708
in balance flows always bad.

1256
00:31:45,708 --> 00:31:46,041
Lightning.

1257
00:31:46,041 --> 00:31:47,250
So you want to do a lot to,

1258
00:31:47,250 --> 00:31:49,916
to balance up.

1259
00:31:49,916 --> 00:31:50,125
Yeah.

1260
00:31:50,125 --> 00:31:50,583
I totally

1261
00:31:50,583 --> 00:31:52,625
I totally understand this point.

1262
00:31:52,625 --> 00:31:52,958
And I mean,

1263
00:31:52,958 --> 00:31:53,750
I mean,

1264
00:31:53,750 --> 00:31:55,166
this shouldn't come as a surprise,

1265
00:31:55,166 --> 00:31:57,375
but our specific use cases,

1266
00:31:57,375 --> 00:31:58,916
this isn't like

1267
00:31:58,916 --> 00:32:00,208
mining secret or anything.

1268
00:32:00,208 --> 00:32:00,583
We have a

1269
00:32:00,583 --> 00:32:01,416
we have a web shop

1270
00:32:01,416 --> 00:32:02,583
and we accept Bitcoin and we

1271
00:32:02,583 --> 00:32:04,666
we need lots of inbound liquidity.

1272
00:32:04,666 --> 00:32:05,166
And so

1273
00:32:05,166 --> 00:32:07,541
and so I mean, the the process

1274
00:32:07,541 --> 00:32:08,041
for that

1275
00:32:08,041 --> 00:32:09,583
that that I found really easy

1276
00:32:09,583 --> 00:32:11,375
was just make a channel to bolts

1277
00:32:11,375 --> 00:32:12,375
and then

1278
00:32:12,375 --> 00:32:13,083
basically swap

1279
00:32:13,083 --> 00:32:14,375
everything everything out.

1280
00:32:16,208 --> 00:32:17,166
Now I mean I

1281
00:32:17,166 --> 00:32:18,458
get that, that, that sort of from,

1282
00:32:18,458 --> 00:32:19,541
from your side

1283
00:32:19,541 --> 00:32:20,083
that leaves

1284
00:32:20,083 --> 00:32:22,250
a bunch of kind of liquidity,

1285
00:32:22,250 --> 00:32:24,000
kind of stuck there.

1286
00:32:24,000 --> 00:32:24,958
Right?

1287
00:32:24,958 --> 00:32:26,000
Because if you, if,

1288
00:32:26,000 --> 00:32:27,666
if someone opens a channel to you

1289
00:32:27,666 --> 00:32:30,666
and then sends all the funds to you,

1290
00:32:30,833 --> 00:32:32,166
it's not like you can leave it there

1291
00:32:32,166 --> 00:32:32,708
indefinitely.

1292
00:32:32,708 --> 00:32:34,541
You've you've got SATs locked up.

1293
00:32:34,541 --> 00:32:35,750
So have you closed that channel

1294
00:32:35,750 --> 00:32:36,833
to get get rid of that.

1295
00:32:36,833 --> 00:32:37,958
Then there goes

1296
00:32:37,958 --> 00:32:40,000
the inbound liquidity.

1297
00:32:40,000 --> 00:32:41,708
So how does that work from,

1298
00:32:41,708 --> 00:32:43,291
from a practical perspective,

1299
00:32:43,291 --> 00:32:45,333
if someone is is using this,

1300
00:32:45,333 --> 00:32:47,291
is, is this even a recommendable

1301
00:32:47,291 --> 00:32:50,291
way to, to get inbound liquidity?

1302
00:32:50,583 --> 00:32:52,250
Yeah, that's a good question.

1303
00:32:52,250 --> 00:32:54,041
So that is also evolving.

1304
00:32:54,041 --> 00:32:55,750
So all these years it was the,

1305
00:32:55,750 --> 00:32:57,416
the way to go.

1306
00:32:57,416 --> 00:32:59,291
And a lot of people did that.

1307
00:32:59,291 --> 00:33:02,208
The downside was that

1308
00:33:02,208 --> 00:33:05,250
we were sitting on a lot of capital,

1309
00:33:05,333 --> 00:33:08,166
potentially unused or especially the

1310
00:33:08,166 --> 00:33:09,541
the unused capital

1311
00:33:09,541 --> 00:33:10,083
that was sitting

1312
00:33:10,083 --> 00:33:11,375
on our side of the channel,

1313
00:33:11,375 --> 00:33:13,125
meaning our capital not moving.

1314
00:33:13,125 --> 00:33:13,750
That's always bad.

1315
00:33:13,750 --> 00:33:14,375
What do you want in the end?

1316
00:33:14,375 --> 00:33:15,458
Does this velocity. Right.

1317
00:33:15,458 --> 00:33:16,166
So we want the capital

1318
00:33:16,166 --> 00:33:17,333
to be used as efficiently

1319
00:33:17,333 --> 00:33:19,208
as, as as it gets.

1320
00:33:19,208 --> 00:33:20,250
We didn't really meant it.

1321
00:33:20,250 --> 00:33:21,333
So this might be coming

1322
00:33:21,333 --> 00:33:22,458
as a surprising fact,

1323
00:33:22,458 --> 00:33:23,833
we didn't really manage

1324
00:33:23,833 --> 00:33:25,625
much of the liquidity of our

1325
00:33:25,625 --> 00:33:27,833
of our lightning notes, in the past,

1326
00:33:27,833 --> 00:33:29,583
but we started doing so,

1327
00:33:30,916 --> 00:33:32,333
maybe since 3 or 4 months.

1328
00:33:32,333 --> 00:33:34,916
We are really actively, filtering.

1329
00:33:34,916 --> 00:33:35,833
We also built internal

1330
00:33:35,833 --> 00:33:36,375
tooling for that

1331
00:33:36,375 --> 00:33:38,291
to detect that, you know, like,

1332
00:33:38,291 --> 00:33:38,875
get alerts

1333
00:33:38,875 --> 00:33:41,875
and then also close channels where,

1334
00:33:41,958 --> 00:33:44,416
we have significant capital

1335
00:33:44,416 --> 00:33:45,666
on our side of the channel

1336
00:33:45,666 --> 00:33:47,291
that is not being used. Okay.

1337
00:33:47,291 --> 00:33:48,041
So as long as,

1338
00:33:48,041 --> 00:33:49,833
as long as you and that's,

1339
00:33:49,833 --> 00:33:50,500
that's just a hard

1340
00:33:50,500 --> 00:33:51,750
fact on lightning.

1341
00:33:51,750 --> 00:33:53,500
As the network is transitioning

1342
00:33:53,500 --> 00:33:55,458
and then my well, in my opinion

1343
00:33:55,458 --> 00:33:56,833
about full swing

1344
00:33:56,833 --> 00:33:58,000
already,

1345
00:33:58,000 --> 00:33:58,583
transitioning

1346
00:33:58,583 --> 00:34:00,791
to a more professional network,

1347
00:34:00,791 --> 00:34:02,000
we have to live with the fact

1348
00:34:02,000 --> 00:34:04,291
that unused channels, unused capital

1349
00:34:04,291 --> 00:34:05,208
channels gets closed.

1350
00:34:05,208 --> 00:34:06,750
And and that's just how it is,

1351
00:34:06,750 --> 00:34:07,208
the times

1352
00:34:07,208 --> 00:34:08,166
where you can just

1353
00:34:08,166 --> 00:34:09,583
open a channel and,

1354
00:34:09,583 --> 00:34:10,875
you know, it will be open forever.

1355
00:34:10,875 --> 00:34:12,333
And you have one Bitcoin of inbound

1356
00:34:12,333 --> 00:34:13,750
liquidity for free forever.

1357
00:34:13,750 --> 00:34:15,791
These these times are slowly

1358
00:34:15,791 --> 00:34:17,333
but surely coming to an end.

1359
00:34:17,333 --> 00:34:20,083
So right now I would not

1360
00:34:20,083 --> 00:34:21,500
recommend bulls

1361
00:34:21,500 --> 00:34:23,291
as a way to open a channel,

1362
00:34:23,291 --> 00:34:24,750
then swap yourself inbound

1363
00:34:24,750 --> 00:34:25,416
and then,

1364
00:34:25,416 --> 00:34:26,000
you know, hope

1365
00:34:26,000 --> 00:34:28,666
that it just stays there forever.

1366
00:34:28,666 --> 00:34:30,583
There are actually lsps,

1367
00:34:30,583 --> 00:34:31,541
so we're not an LSP.

1368
00:34:31,541 --> 00:34:33,875
LSP that sell this as a service.

1369
00:34:33,875 --> 00:34:35,708
So basically you pay the money

1370
00:34:35,708 --> 00:34:37,750
for the capital cost

1371
00:34:37,750 --> 00:34:38,666
to have that inbound

1372
00:34:38,666 --> 00:34:39,708
liquidity open to you.

1373
00:34:39,708 --> 00:34:41,166
So that is the way

1374
00:34:41,166 --> 00:34:42,500
I would go in the future to

1375
00:34:42,500 --> 00:34:43,916
to have that as reliable.

1376
00:34:45,666 --> 00:34:47,291
Hey there, dear listener,

1377
00:34:47,291 --> 00:34:48,125
I hate to interrupt

1378
00:34:48,125 --> 00:34:48,708
you like this

1379
00:34:48,708 --> 00:34:49,666
in the middle of the show,

1380
00:34:49,666 --> 00:34:51,291
but we'd like to tell you

1381
00:34:51,291 --> 00:34:52,833
a couple of things about,

1382
00:34:52,833 --> 00:34:54,083
for instance, the Bitcoin

1383
00:34:54,083 --> 00:34:54,916
Infinity store

1384
00:34:54,916 --> 00:34:56,750
where you can find our new book,

1385
00:34:56,750 --> 00:34:58,333
Bitcoin The Inverse of Clown World.

1386
00:34:58,333 --> 00:34:59,333
It's a great book.

1387
00:34:59,333 --> 00:35:00,208
I think you should get it

1388
00:35:00,208 --> 00:35:01,416
as soon as you can.

1389
00:35:01,416 --> 00:35:03,166
And we have some other stuff too,

1390
00:35:03,166 --> 00:35:04,083
don't we look.

1391
00:35:04,083 --> 00:35:05,000
Absolutely.

1392
00:35:05,000 --> 00:35:05,333
First,

1393
00:35:05,333 --> 00:35:06,500
I think we just like to tell you

1394
00:35:06,500 --> 00:35:08,208
about our great partners.

1395
00:35:08,208 --> 00:35:10,083
First up is beatbox.

1396
00:35:10,083 --> 00:35:11,125
They're our favorite hardware

1397
00:35:11,125 --> 00:35:12,041
wallet, super

1398
00:35:12,041 --> 00:35:13,041
easy to use,

1399
00:35:13,041 --> 00:35:14,166
and they don't compromise

1400
00:35:14,166 --> 00:35:15,833
on their security features at all.

1401
00:35:15,833 --> 00:35:17,708
So we really recommend them.

1402
00:35:17,708 --> 00:35:18,833
Check them out a bit.

1403
00:35:18,833 --> 00:35:21,541
Box dot Swiss slash infinity.

1404
00:35:21,541 --> 00:35:22,083
And by the way,

1405
00:35:22,083 --> 00:35:23,250
you can use Code Infinity

1406
00:35:23,250 --> 00:35:24,166
just about everywhere

1407
00:35:24,166 --> 00:35:25,333
in the Bitcoin space.

1408
00:35:25,333 --> 00:35:27,583
And probably you'll get a discount.

1409
00:35:27,583 --> 00:35:28,458
We'll see.

1410
00:35:28,458 --> 00:35:29,333
And the other one is

1411
00:35:29,333 --> 00:35:31,500
the stamp seed seed plate.

1412
00:35:31,500 --> 00:35:32,791
This is something that

1413
00:35:32,791 --> 00:35:34,791
has been really well received.

1414
00:35:34,791 --> 00:35:36,166
This everything divided by 21

1415
00:35:36,166 --> 00:35:37,458
million seed plate.

1416
00:35:37,458 --> 00:35:40,166
So check that out at Stamps.com.

1417
00:35:40,166 --> 00:35:40,916
You can get

1418
00:35:40,916 --> 00:35:42,291
our link in the description

1419
00:35:42,291 --> 00:35:44,083
as well for another discount.

1420
00:35:44,083 --> 00:35:45,625
And don't forget to follow us

1421
00:35:45,625 --> 00:35:48,625
on X and Noster and all other places

1422
00:35:48,625 --> 00:35:49,875
you can find on the internet.

1423
00:35:49,875 --> 00:35:50,500
Exactly.

1424
00:35:50,500 --> 00:35:51,041
In fact,

1425
00:35:51,041 --> 00:35:53,166
we're on TikTok and Instagram

1426
00:35:53,166 --> 00:35:54,041
and all these other places.

1427
00:35:54,041 --> 00:35:54,666
No, no, no,

1428
00:35:54,666 --> 00:35:55,958
look, we're not on TikTok

1429
00:35:55,958 --> 00:35:56,958
and Instagram

1430
00:35:56,958 --> 00:35:58,583
while we are on Instagram.

1431
00:35:58,583 --> 00:35:59,416
We are on TikTok.

1432
00:35:59,416 --> 00:36:00,541
Oh, we're on TikTok too.

1433
00:36:01,666 --> 00:36:03,500
Okay, well, so follow us.

1434
00:36:03,500 --> 00:36:04,250
Follow us there.

1435
00:36:04,250 --> 00:36:07,250
If you want to help spread the word.

1436
00:36:07,708 --> 00:36:09,458
Yes. Brush your teeth.

1437
00:36:09,458 --> 00:36:11,750
All right. Back to the show.

1438
00:36:11,750 --> 00:36:11,958
Yeah.

1439
00:36:11,958 --> 00:36:12,625
It's interesting

1440
00:36:12,625 --> 00:36:13,541
like lightning

1441
00:36:13,541 --> 00:36:16,541
in the sort of original sense of, of

1442
00:36:16,750 --> 00:36:18,166
open a channel and then,

1443
00:36:18,166 --> 00:36:18,875
and then you can

1444
00:36:18,875 --> 00:36:19,208
and then you

1445
00:36:19,208 --> 00:36:22,208
can split back and forth,

1446
00:36:23,166 --> 00:36:24,833
you know, batching transactions

1447
00:36:24,833 --> 00:36:25,083
and all

1448
00:36:25,083 --> 00:36:25,750
this, this,

1449
00:36:25,750 --> 00:36:26,500
this really hasn't

1450
00:36:26,500 --> 00:36:27,458
been what it's,

1451
00:36:27,458 --> 00:36:28,833
it's turned into in practice

1452
00:36:28,833 --> 00:36:30,333
over the course of of time,

1453
00:36:30,333 --> 00:36:32,458
lightning is, has turned into this

1454
00:36:32,458 --> 00:36:33,541
almost intermediate

1455
00:36:33,541 --> 00:36:35,291
layer that, that,

1456
00:36:35,291 --> 00:36:35,833
really there's

1457
00:36:35,833 --> 00:36:37,208
applications on top of it

1458
00:36:37,208 --> 00:36:39,250
that, that use lightning

1459
00:36:39,250 --> 00:36:42,208
as the, the mechanism of,

1460
00:36:42,208 --> 00:36:43,833
facilitating transactions.

1461
00:36:43,833 --> 00:36:45,083
But, but

1462
00:36:45,083 --> 00:36:47,583
not very many people have their own

1463
00:36:47,583 --> 00:36:49,083
lightning node

1464
00:36:49,083 --> 00:36:50,541
and, yeah, it's,

1465
00:36:50,541 --> 00:36:52,083
it's it's interesting that,

1466
00:36:52,083 --> 00:36:52,875
when you talk about

1467
00:36:52,875 --> 00:36:54,416
the professionalization

1468
00:36:54,416 --> 00:36:55,208
of lightning, it's,

1469
00:36:55,208 --> 00:36:55,708
it's it's

1470
00:36:55,708 --> 00:36:56,583
kind of that

1471
00:36:56,583 --> 00:36:58,958
if you even have a lightning node,

1472
00:36:58,958 --> 00:37:00,500
this is going to be such a rarity.

1473
00:37:00,500 --> 00:37:00,958
It's, it's

1474
00:37:00,958 --> 00:37:03,541
just the same kind of thing is,

1475
00:37:03,541 --> 00:37:05,416
if you make an on chain transaction,

1476
00:37:05,416 --> 00:37:05,958
that's going to be

1477
00:37:05,958 --> 00:37:07,458
a rare thing in the future.

1478
00:37:07,458 --> 00:37:08,250
And and maybe it's

1479
00:37:08,250 --> 00:37:10,416
not even that that far from now.

1480
00:37:10,416 --> 00:37:11,583
How do you see the,

1481
00:37:11,583 --> 00:37:14,166
the evolution of lightning

1482
00:37:14,166 --> 00:37:15,583
and what it's going to look like

1483
00:37:15,583 --> 00:37:17,375
in five years, ten years?

1484
00:37:18,666 --> 00:37:19,416
Yeah.

1485
00:37:19,416 --> 00:37:20,916
Let me get my crystal ball.

1486
00:37:20,916 --> 00:37:23,041
So no, I have

1487
00:37:23,041 --> 00:37:24,333
I have pretty strong opinions

1488
00:37:24,333 --> 00:37:24,958
about that actually.

1489
00:37:24,958 --> 00:37:28,416
So I, I acknowledge the transition

1490
00:37:28,416 --> 00:37:28,875
of lightning

1491
00:37:28,875 --> 00:37:31,625
to, more professional network.

1492
00:37:31,625 --> 00:37:34,625
I acknowledge the transition to,

1493
00:37:35,041 --> 00:37:36,291
of highly

1494
00:37:36,291 --> 00:37:37,083
connected, world

1495
00:37:37,083 --> 00:37:40,083
connected, professional nodes,

1496
00:37:40,416 --> 00:37:43,291
that spend significant resources

1497
00:37:43,291 --> 00:37:44,125
and time

1498
00:37:44,125 --> 00:37:45,291
and software

1499
00:37:45,291 --> 00:37:46,125
intelligence software

1500
00:37:46,125 --> 00:37:48,000
managing managing the nodes with us

1501
00:37:48,000 --> 00:37:48,625
being one of them.

1502
00:37:48,625 --> 00:37:48,958
By the way,

1503
00:37:48,958 --> 00:37:49,625
we operate

1504
00:37:49,625 --> 00:37:51,791
one of the oldest lightning nodes of

1505
00:37:51,791 --> 00:37:52,458
on the network,

1506
00:37:52,458 --> 00:37:53,375
like I think our oldest

1507
00:37:53,375 --> 00:37:54,625
channels, almost six years old.

1508
00:37:54,625 --> 00:37:56,791
We opened it in 2019.

1509
00:37:56,791 --> 00:37:58,875
So we we have significant experience

1510
00:37:58,875 --> 00:38:00,666
in operating a lightning node,

1511
00:38:00,666 --> 00:38:01,958
and I think it will be in the end.

1512
00:38:01,958 --> 00:38:03,291
It will be these kind of players

1513
00:38:03,291 --> 00:38:04,250
which will either be

1514
00:38:04,250 --> 00:38:05,083
wireless by themselves,

1515
00:38:05,083 --> 00:38:06,416
that will be exchanges

1516
00:38:06,416 --> 00:38:08,250
or other platforms that,

1517
00:38:08,250 --> 00:38:08,625
you know,

1518
00:38:08,625 --> 00:38:09,750
I'll professional a need

1519
00:38:09,750 --> 00:38:11,208
a professional lightning apprentice

1520
00:38:11,208 --> 00:38:12,541
operation in-house,

1521
00:38:12,541 --> 00:38:14,166
but the rest of the of of

1522
00:38:14,166 --> 00:38:16,208
users and retail and users,

1523
00:38:17,541 --> 00:38:18,458
I don't think that will

1524
00:38:18,458 --> 00:38:20,291
be touching lightning

1525
00:38:20,291 --> 00:38:21,583
directly in a sense.

1526
00:38:21,583 --> 00:38:22,416
So I'll take this

1527
00:38:22,416 --> 00:38:23,166
with a grain of salt,

1528
00:38:23,166 --> 00:38:24,958
because I'm obviously biased here,

1529
00:38:24,958 --> 00:38:28,083
but I think using lightning

1530
00:38:28,291 --> 00:38:30,208
in a noncustodial way in the future,

1531
00:38:30,208 --> 00:38:31,166
the only way to do

1532
00:38:31,166 --> 00:38:32,708
that is by a swaps.

1533
00:38:32,708 --> 00:38:34,875
And it probably won't be swaps

1534
00:38:34,875 --> 00:38:36,250
from liquid for forever,

1535
00:38:36,250 --> 00:38:37,791
but swaps from other layers, right?

1536
00:38:37,791 --> 00:38:39,208
So we we have a lot of other

1537
00:38:39,208 --> 00:38:41,166
interesting new layers coming up.

1538
00:38:41,166 --> 00:38:42,458
Ark being one of them.

1539
00:38:42,458 --> 00:38:44,583
So I really see this, this vision

1540
00:38:44,583 --> 00:38:45,166
of lightning

1541
00:38:45,166 --> 00:38:47,083
playing out in a way where it is

1542
00:38:47,083 --> 00:38:48,166
the transactional layer,

1543
00:38:48,166 --> 00:38:51,000
where it is the connective tissue.

1544
00:38:51,000 --> 00:38:52,416
That's how Roy always puts it

1545
00:38:52,416 --> 00:38:54,666
between the different bitcoin,

1546
00:38:54,666 --> 00:38:56,583
layers.

1547
00:38:56,583 --> 00:38:57,583
But not,

1548
00:38:57,583 --> 00:38:58,708
like I said, not people

1549
00:38:58,708 --> 00:38:59,708
running their own lightning nodes

1550
00:38:59,708 --> 00:39:00,458
and managing everything

1551
00:39:00,458 --> 00:39:01,083
by themselves.

1552
00:39:01,083 --> 00:39:02,250
So that's how I see

1553
00:39:02,250 --> 00:39:02,916
lightning evolving.

1554
00:39:02,916 --> 00:39:04,458
Yes, it's the rail between layers.

1555
00:39:04,458 --> 00:39:05,375
Yes, it's it's

1556
00:39:05,375 --> 00:39:06,416
the way to do payments

1557
00:39:06,416 --> 00:39:06,958
because lightning

1558
00:39:06,958 --> 00:39:07,666
lighting is awesome.

1559
00:39:07,666 --> 00:39:09,125
It has awesome properties.

1560
00:39:09,125 --> 00:39:10,416
You know, I'm like, for you

1561
00:39:10,416 --> 00:39:11,666
as a merchant,

1562
00:39:11,666 --> 00:39:12,333
you have instant

1563
00:39:12,333 --> 00:39:13,416
transaction finality.

1564
00:39:13,416 --> 00:39:14,583
That's just unbeatable, right?

1565
00:39:14,583 --> 00:39:16,083
So, folks pay you,

1566
00:39:16,083 --> 00:39:19,416
you can be 100% sure, be sure that

1567
00:39:19,416 --> 00:39:20,375
this is actually paid

1568
00:39:20,375 --> 00:39:21,208
and there's no

1569
00:39:21,208 --> 00:39:23,375
plaque reorg or something going on.

1570
00:39:23,375 --> 00:39:23,541
Right.

1571
00:39:23,541 --> 00:39:25,500
So you can release a good and

1572
00:39:25,500 --> 00:39:26,583
and and be fine with it.

1573
00:39:26,583 --> 00:39:28,208
So those are properties

1574
00:39:28,208 --> 00:39:30,666
that make that make lightning really

1575
00:39:32,000 --> 00:39:32,875
irreplaceable.

1576
00:39:32,875 --> 00:39:33,666
And that's why

1577
00:39:33,666 --> 00:39:35,291
I will always have its place.

1578
00:39:35,291 --> 00:39:37,000
But the way we use it

1579
00:39:37,000 --> 00:39:38,458
probably from from,

1580
00:39:38,458 --> 00:39:39,458
you know, swapping in

1581
00:39:39,458 --> 00:39:42,041
and swapping out as, as we need it.

1582
00:39:42,041 --> 00:39:42,333
Yeah.

1583
00:39:42,333 --> 00:39:43,333
This, this grain

1584
00:39:43,333 --> 00:39:44,541
of, of salt

1585
00:39:44,541 --> 00:39:45,208
you're talking about

1586
00:39:45,208 --> 00:39:46,416
to take this with.

1587
00:39:46,416 --> 00:39:49,166
I take it with a grain of salt

1588
00:39:49,166 --> 00:39:51,833
from from chef co-owner tears

1589
00:39:51,833 --> 00:39:53,250
because they are salty

1590
00:39:53,250 --> 00:39:55,208
about the whole,

1591
00:39:55,208 --> 00:39:56,708
like, the situation.

1592
00:39:56,708 --> 00:39:57,958
And this is one of the

1593
00:39:57,958 --> 00:39:59,916
main criticisms,

1594
00:39:59,916 --> 00:40:01,291
about lightning and,

1595
00:40:01,291 --> 00:40:02,625
Bitcoin's scaling in general,

1596
00:40:02,625 --> 00:40:05,041
I hear from chef corners is that,

1597
00:40:05,041 --> 00:40:06,666
lightning is totally centralized

1598
00:40:06,666 --> 00:40:08,291
and it's totally like not

1599
00:40:08,291 --> 00:40:09,958
self custodial.

1600
00:40:09,958 --> 00:40:11,041
And it's so tiresome

1601
00:40:11,041 --> 00:40:12,625
because then they go on to

1602
00:40:12,625 --> 00:40:14,916
talk about sharding or something.

1603
00:40:14,916 --> 00:40:16,333
And, and the,

1604
00:40:16,333 --> 00:40:18,458
the thing they're missing is that,

1605
00:40:18,458 --> 00:40:19,208
yeah, sure.

1606
00:40:19,208 --> 00:40:20,166
You can theoretically

1607
00:40:20,166 --> 00:40:21,875
do fractional reserve,

1608
00:40:21,875 --> 00:40:24,166
custodial lightning at some point,

1609
00:40:24,166 --> 00:40:25,458
but it's still way,

1610
00:40:25,458 --> 00:40:26,833
way, way better than banking.

1611
00:40:26,833 --> 00:40:27,875
Like you can't do it

1612
00:40:27,875 --> 00:40:29,166
to the same extent

1613
00:40:29,166 --> 00:40:30,666
as you can in the fiat system.

1614
00:40:30,666 --> 00:40:31,666
It's still a like,

1615
00:40:31,666 --> 00:40:33,250
even if the worst case scenario,

1616
00:40:33,250 --> 00:40:33,916
if volatile

1617
00:40:33,916 --> 00:40:37,666
Satoshi decides to give out paper

1618
00:40:37,666 --> 00:40:39,666
bitcoin to 10% of the users

1619
00:40:39,666 --> 00:40:41,500
or something, they can't do it.

1620
00:40:41,500 --> 00:40:44,250
It doesn't scale the way fiat does

1621
00:40:44,250 --> 00:40:44,791
where

1622
00:40:44,791 --> 00:40:48,291
where you can create like 99.9%

1623
00:40:48,291 --> 00:40:49,291
of all the currency

1624
00:40:49,291 --> 00:40:51,583
and circulation is just conjured up

1625
00:40:51,583 --> 00:40:52,416
the same there.

1626
00:40:52,416 --> 00:40:53,708
Like you can't do that.

1627
00:40:53,708 --> 00:40:55,416
So like it's still

1628
00:40:55,416 --> 00:40:56,708
it's still such an upgrade

1629
00:40:56,708 --> 00:40:57,625
for humanity.

1630
00:40:57,625 --> 00:40:59,208
So they're like missing

1631
00:40:59,208 --> 00:41:00,750
the point in my opinion. And

1632
00:41:01,958 --> 00:41:02,416
Yeah.

1633
00:41:02,416 --> 00:41:03,541
What what are your thoughts?

1634
00:41:03,541 --> 00:41:06,958
I think there are viable ways

1635
00:41:06,958 --> 00:41:09,125
how with a good UX,

1636
00:41:09,125 --> 00:41:10,166
a really good UX,

1637
00:41:10,166 --> 00:41:10,708
how we can use

1638
00:41:10,708 --> 00:41:11,541
lightning in the future,

1639
00:41:11,541 --> 00:41:12,666
being non-custodial. Right.

1640
00:41:12,666 --> 00:41:13,500
So that's the situation

1641
00:41:13,500 --> 00:41:14,250
right now, today.

1642
00:41:14,250 --> 00:41:15,208
And I

1643
00:41:15,208 --> 00:41:17,333
also don't see it that critical.

1644
00:41:17,333 --> 00:41:18,958
But I, I'm very hopeful

1645
00:41:18,958 --> 00:41:20,416
and very positive

1646
00:41:20,416 --> 00:41:21,500
about the future of the,

1647
00:41:21,500 --> 00:41:22,708
of the non

1648
00:41:22,708 --> 00:41:24,583
custodial future of lightning.

1649
00:41:24,583 --> 00:41:26,791
And the main underlying primitives

1650
00:41:26,791 --> 00:41:28,791
being what.

1651
00:41:28,791 --> 00:41:29,125
Yeah.

1652
00:41:29,125 --> 00:41:29,875
I had

1653
00:41:29,875 --> 00:41:31,333
I bought some,

1654
00:41:31,333 --> 00:41:34,333
inbound liquidity yesterday,

1655
00:41:35,041 --> 00:41:38,041
for my newly set up I'll be hub,

1656
00:41:38,041 --> 00:41:39,750
running.

1657
00:41:39,750 --> 00:41:40,583
So I run

1658
00:41:40,583 --> 00:41:43,583
bitcoin knots and L and D and

1659
00:41:43,791 --> 00:41:45,625
I'll be hub on my start nine here.

1660
00:41:45,625 --> 00:41:46,333
And like, I'm

1661
00:41:46,333 --> 00:41:47,791
not very it tech savvy,

1662
00:41:47,791 --> 00:41:49,708
but I'm, I'm fiddling around with it

1663
00:41:49,708 --> 00:41:51,333
and like seeing what I

1664
00:41:51,333 --> 00:41:52,958
can do and I enjoy it.

1665
00:41:53,958 --> 00:41:56,541
And I'll be is one of those,

1666
00:41:56,541 --> 00:41:57,625
like things services

1667
00:41:57,625 --> 00:41:59,666
that are sort of forcing people

1668
00:41:59,666 --> 00:42:01,708
to become more technical with it.

1669
00:42:01,708 --> 00:42:03,125
Yeah. And I love that.

1670
00:42:03,125 --> 00:42:04,625
Like they're steering you

1671
00:42:04,625 --> 00:42:07,166
in the right direction.

1672
00:42:07,166 --> 00:42:07,583
Yes.

1673
00:42:07,583 --> 00:42:08,666
So the

1674
00:42:08,666 --> 00:42:10,166
that they are discontinuing

1675
00:42:10,166 --> 00:42:11,416
completely discontinuing

1676
00:42:11,416 --> 00:42:12,875
the custodial product

1677
00:42:12,875 --> 00:42:13,750
is, is,

1678
00:42:13,750 --> 00:42:15,291
is it's the right thing

1679
00:42:15,291 --> 00:42:16,875
to do from a company's perspective

1680
00:42:16,875 --> 00:42:17,791
because they just don't

1681
00:42:17,791 --> 00:42:18,875
want to have custody.

1682
00:42:18,875 --> 00:42:20,458
I certainly wouldn't want that

1683
00:42:20,458 --> 00:42:21,541
right now.

1684
00:42:21,541 --> 00:42:23,416
That's that's also part by the way.

1685
00:42:23,416 --> 00:42:25,083
So it's not only bitcoin

1686
00:42:25,083 --> 00:42:27,291
ethos and our personal ethics

1687
00:42:27,291 --> 00:42:28,625
that, that we are

1688
00:42:28,625 --> 00:42:29,708
putting so much focus on

1689
00:42:29,708 --> 00:42:30,875
both being non-custodial,

1690
00:42:30,875 --> 00:42:32,708
but also from a legal standpoint,

1691
00:42:32,708 --> 00:42:33,958
as we have learned and learned

1692
00:42:33,958 --> 00:42:35,708
in the past couple of years.

1693
00:42:35,708 --> 00:42:37,166
It's probably a good idea to,

1694
00:42:37,166 --> 00:42:39,083
to not have custody over of a user.

1695
00:42:39,083 --> 00:42:40,208
So and I think that's also part of

1696
00:42:40,208 --> 00:42:41,458
the motivation of algorithm.

1697
00:42:42,708 --> 00:42:43,416
Absolutely.

1698
00:42:43,416 --> 00:42:44,708
Because

1699
00:42:44,708 --> 00:42:46,041
it's only when you do that

1700
00:42:46,041 --> 00:42:46,916
you are really

1701
00:42:46,916 --> 00:42:48,666
a financial company, isn't it?

1702
00:42:48,666 --> 00:42:49,750
Or a bank or something

1703
00:42:49,750 --> 00:42:51,666
like if you don't ever touch

1704
00:42:51,666 --> 00:42:53,916
people's funds then

1705
00:42:53,916 --> 00:42:54,583
then again,

1706
00:42:54,583 --> 00:42:56,041
I mean, attacks can come in

1707
00:42:56,041 --> 00:42:57,333
either way, like

1708
00:42:57,333 --> 00:42:59,500
The Pirate Bay was a link provider,

1709
00:42:59,500 --> 00:43:00,208
nothing else.

1710
00:43:00,208 --> 00:43:00,666
And they

1711
00:43:00,666 --> 00:43:02,125
they got in legal trouble for that.

1712
00:43:02,125 --> 00:43:04,083
So I guess that the risks are always

1713
00:43:04,083 --> 00:43:05,708
there as long as the motivation

1714
00:43:05,708 --> 00:43:06,875
for the assholes are.

1715
00:43:06,875 --> 00:43:08,875
But but still.

1716
00:43:08,875 --> 00:43:10,000
Yeah, I understand that

1717
00:43:10,000 --> 00:43:12,000
motivation perfectly well.

1718
00:43:12,000 --> 00:43:12,291
Yeah.

1719
00:43:12,291 --> 00:43:13,166
And I also believe

1720
00:43:13,166 --> 00:43:14,750
in, in our world,

1721
00:43:14,750 --> 00:43:17,625
transitioning towards a world,

1722
00:43:17,625 --> 00:43:18,291
unfortunately,

1723
00:43:18,291 --> 00:43:19,708
probably a two tiered world.

1724
00:43:19,708 --> 00:43:20,291
A world

1725
00:43:20,291 --> 00:43:21,583
where you have places

1726
00:43:21,583 --> 00:43:24,583
where you can be sure you're a safe,

1727
00:43:24,875 --> 00:43:25,958
offering a service

1728
00:43:25,958 --> 00:43:27,375
that is doing nothing illegally

1729
00:43:27,375 --> 00:43:29,250
and not having control over

1730
00:43:29,250 --> 00:43:30,208
for customer funds

1731
00:43:30,208 --> 00:43:32,083
is the defining factor.

1732
00:43:32,083 --> 00:43:33,416
And then there will be another world

1733
00:43:33,416 --> 00:43:34,708
where all just does matter.

1734
00:43:34,708 --> 00:43:35,916
And if they want to, you know,

1735
00:43:37,041 --> 00:43:37,708
basically

1736
00:43:37,708 --> 00:43:39,125
legislation through

1737
00:43:39,125 --> 00:43:40,833
there, through enforcement.

1738
00:43:40,833 --> 00:43:42,250
But that's just really not the world

1739
00:43:42,250 --> 00:43:45,208
I want to live in.

1740
00:43:45,208 --> 00:43:45,458
Now.

1741
00:43:45,458 --> 00:43:46,291
And I mean, the

1742
00:43:46,291 --> 00:43:46,666
I think,

1743
00:43:46,666 --> 00:43:47,958
I think the thing is here is

1744
00:43:47,958 --> 00:43:50,041
that is that,

1745
00:43:50,041 --> 00:43:52,125
lightning like anything on Bitcoin

1746
00:43:52,125 --> 00:43:53,041
is, is,

1747
00:43:53,041 --> 00:43:54,541
like a matter of, of degrees.

1748
00:43:54,541 --> 00:43:55,833
But I think like what I said

1749
00:43:55,833 --> 00:43:56,666
earlier is that, is

1750
00:43:56,666 --> 00:43:57,875
that it's all better

1751
00:43:57,875 --> 00:43:59,291
than, than the fiat system

1752
00:43:59,291 --> 00:44:00,791
just getting some kind of exposure

1753
00:44:00,791 --> 00:44:02,250
to Bitcoin somehow.

1754
00:44:02,250 --> 00:44:03,458
And, and of course,

1755
00:44:03,458 --> 00:44:04,458
if you use a third party

1756
00:44:04,458 --> 00:44:05,416
or have a custodian

1757
00:44:05,416 --> 00:44:07,208
or have some intermediary,

1758
00:44:07,208 --> 00:44:07,750
there's there's

1759
00:44:07,750 --> 00:44:08,875
some kind of risk there.

1760
00:44:08,875 --> 00:44:10,000
But at the end of the day,

1761
00:44:10,000 --> 00:44:13,000
having some amount of satoshis

1762
00:44:13,041 --> 00:44:13,666
somewhere

1763
00:44:13,666 --> 00:44:14,833
is better than having

1764
00:44:14,833 --> 00:44:16,875
no satoshis anywhere.

1765
00:44:16,875 --> 00:44:18,083
And, and and so, I mean,

1766
00:44:18,083 --> 00:44:20,250
I like this I like this trend.

1767
00:44:20,250 --> 00:44:21,416
And I mean, I think

1768
00:44:21,416 --> 00:44:24,750
all all, some of all advocates for,

1769
00:44:25,416 --> 00:44:26,250
for, for bitcoin

1770
00:44:26,250 --> 00:44:27,708
generally can can do

1771
00:44:27,708 --> 00:44:29,041
is, is encourage people

1772
00:44:29,041 --> 00:44:30,041
to get as deep into that

1773
00:44:30,041 --> 00:44:31,083
stack as possible.

1774
00:44:31,083 --> 00:44:32,166
But eventually

1775
00:44:32,166 --> 00:44:32,750
it is

1776
00:44:32,750 --> 00:44:33,666
just going to get to the

1777
00:44:33,666 --> 00:44:34,208
to the point

1778
00:44:34,208 --> 00:44:36,125
where the, the amounts of satoshis

1779
00:44:36,125 --> 00:44:37,458
that people can acquire

1780
00:44:37,458 --> 00:44:38,083
aren't going

1781
00:44:38,083 --> 00:44:40,208
to, for example, enable,

1782
00:44:40,208 --> 00:44:41,833
sending the on chain transaction

1783
00:44:41,833 --> 00:44:43,416
to open a lightning channel

1784
00:44:43,416 --> 00:44:46,416
to make payments in the the South,

1785
00:44:47,166 --> 00:44:49,833
and the, the self-sovereign way.

1786
00:44:49,833 --> 00:44:50,541
And so

1787
00:44:50,541 --> 00:44:51,708
then it's going to start

1788
00:44:51,708 --> 00:44:54,583
to get into other things,

1789
00:44:54,583 --> 00:44:55,958
other solutions

1790
00:44:55,958 --> 00:44:57,750
to, to enable people to do this,

1791
00:44:57,750 --> 00:44:58,958
whether it's,

1792
00:44:58,958 --> 00:45:01,625
yeah, sending, sending Bitcoin to,

1793
00:45:01,625 --> 00:45:03,500
to some kind of,

1794
00:45:03,500 --> 00:45:06,125
lightning provider or whatever,

1795
00:45:06,125 --> 00:45:08,250
whatever that, that looks like,

1796
00:45:08,250 --> 00:45:10,291
or it's using,

1797
00:45:10,291 --> 00:45:11,916
things like liquid,

1798
00:45:11,916 --> 00:45:13,166
these other layer twos

1799
00:45:13,166 --> 00:45:13,875
that you've mentioned.

1800
00:45:13,875 --> 00:45:15,291
But, but liquid is kind of the,

1801
00:45:15,291 --> 00:45:16,625
the interesting what I'm,

1802
00:45:17,791 --> 00:45:19,291
I really started to use

1803
00:45:19,291 --> 00:45:21,291
bolts, actually, when, when,

1804
00:45:21,291 --> 00:45:24,291
when the liquid support came in and.

1805
00:45:24,666 --> 00:45:27,208
Yeah, I remember the three of us

1806
00:45:27,208 --> 00:45:28,708
were, were in Riga.

1807
00:45:28,708 --> 00:45:29,125
We had a,

1808
00:45:29,125 --> 00:45:30,000
we had a conversation

1809
00:45:30,000 --> 00:45:30,958
two years ago in Riga,

1810
00:45:30,958 --> 00:45:31,708
and it was shortly

1811
00:45:31,708 --> 00:45:32,458
after or

1812
00:45:32,458 --> 00:45:33,875
after the liquid swaps

1813
00:45:33,875 --> 00:45:35,833
had had really started to come in.

1814
00:45:35,833 --> 00:45:37,125
And, this is all

1815
00:45:37,125 --> 00:45:38,750
the kind of the peak of all this.

1816
00:45:38,750 --> 00:45:41,041
And it was really interesting,

1817
00:45:41,041 --> 00:45:41,458
to me.

1818
00:45:41,458 --> 00:45:42,833
But let's use liquid

1819
00:45:42,833 --> 00:45:46,750
as this this way around the, the,

1820
00:45:47,333 --> 00:45:49,208
the spam issue, basically.

1821
00:45:49,208 --> 00:45:51,000
And what are your thoughts

1822
00:45:51,000 --> 00:45:52,708
on, on the use of liquid

1823
00:45:52,708 --> 00:45:54,416
generally in terms of,

1824
00:45:54,416 --> 00:45:54,833
in terms

1825
00:45:54,833 --> 00:45:55,458
of basically

1826
00:45:55,458 --> 00:45:58,458
this, this layer to, to off load

1827
00:45:58,708 --> 00:46:01,625
the on chain dynamics,

1828
00:46:01,625 --> 00:46:03,250
and, and kind of get rid of that,

1829
00:46:04,500 --> 00:46:05,708
not so much risk, but,

1830
00:46:05,708 --> 00:46:08,708
but that externality and, and just

1831
00:46:08,916 --> 00:46:10,916
keep transacting with, with Bitcoin,

1832
00:46:10,916 --> 00:46:11,750
using it with lightning,

1833
00:46:11,750 --> 00:46:12,416
using it with like

1834
00:46:12,416 --> 00:46:13,833
what do you think of that?

1835
00:46:13,833 --> 00:46:14,791
I think that's the way to go.

1836
00:46:14,791 --> 00:46:16,833
So, maintain

1837
00:46:16,833 --> 00:46:17,708
blocked blog

1838
00:46:17,708 --> 00:46:20,375
space is just one of the

1839
00:46:20,375 --> 00:46:21,916
you made these scarcest resource

1840
00:46:21,916 --> 00:46:22,708
next to the kind of stuff

1841
00:46:22,708 --> 00:46:23,583
that we have on the planet,

1842
00:46:23,583 --> 00:46:25,291
so we should treat it as such.

1843
00:46:25,291 --> 00:46:27,208
So even though right now

1844
00:46:27,208 --> 00:46:28,375
some of us might be forgetting

1845
00:46:28,375 --> 00:46:28,791
about this

1846
00:46:28,791 --> 00:46:31,000
because fees are relatively low,

1847
00:46:31,000 --> 00:46:32,500
I think it's crucially important

1848
00:46:32,500 --> 00:46:36,000
that we keep in mind, that building,

1849
00:46:36,000 --> 00:46:38,166
anything that relies on Bitcoin

1850
00:46:38,166 --> 00:46:38,791
mentioned block

1851
00:46:38,791 --> 00:46:40,291
space is prone to fail.

1852
00:46:40,291 --> 00:46:40,583
Right?

1853
00:46:40,583 --> 00:46:42,291
So, that's, that's

1854
00:46:42,291 --> 00:46:43,750
that's what you should have in mind.

1855
00:46:43,750 --> 00:46:45,958
So using the main chain

1856
00:46:45,958 --> 00:46:47,041
for something like

1857
00:46:47,041 --> 00:46:47,791
lightning channel

1858
00:46:47,791 --> 00:46:50,125
rebalancing thing is just

1859
00:46:50,125 --> 00:46:52,000
not the way to go.

1860
00:46:52,000 --> 00:46:52,833
And I might even go

1861
00:46:52,833 --> 00:46:53,625
further than that

1862
00:46:53,625 --> 00:46:55,416
by using the Bitcoin main chain

1863
00:46:55,416 --> 00:46:57,583
might not even be the preferred way

1864
00:46:57,583 --> 00:46:59,541
to anchor lightning channel itself.

1865
00:46:59,541 --> 00:46:59,833
Right?

1866
00:46:59,833 --> 00:47:00,916
So, if you're looking

1867
00:47:00,916 --> 00:47:02,583
at a couple of years down the road,

1868
00:47:02,583 --> 00:47:03,875
we might also want to

1869
00:47:03,875 --> 00:47:05,333
have most of the usage.

1870
00:47:05,333 --> 00:47:06,500
So don't get me wrong,

1871
00:47:06,500 --> 00:47:07,333
the maintained Lightning

1872
00:47:07,333 --> 00:47:07,958
network will not

1873
00:47:07,958 --> 00:47:09,000
disappear, will stay there.

1874
00:47:09,000 --> 00:47:09,750
It has its place.

1875
00:47:10,708 --> 00:47:13,041
But, it might be a good idea

1876
00:47:13,041 --> 00:47:13,958
to actually anchor

1877
00:47:13,958 --> 00:47:15,541
lightning itself on to another layer

1878
00:47:15,541 --> 00:47:16,833
to specifically Ark.

1879
00:47:16,833 --> 00:47:18,500
I'm very hopeful on

1880
00:47:18,500 --> 00:47:19,416
and very positive

1881
00:47:19,416 --> 00:47:20,583
about anchoring lightning.

1882
00:47:20,583 --> 00:47:21,625
Like I gave a

1883
00:47:21,625 --> 00:47:22,833
I gave a talk about this in

1884
00:47:22,833 --> 00:47:23,166
the future

1885
00:47:23,166 --> 00:47:24,916
was actually pretty, pretty cool.

1886
00:47:24,916 --> 00:47:26,458
In adopting bitcoin,

1887
00:47:26,458 --> 00:47:27,291
to two weeks ago,

1888
00:47:27,291 --> 00:47:28,916
one and half weeks ago.

1889
00:47:28,916 --> 00:47:30,500
So those are all ways

1890
00:47:30,500 --> 00:47:32,083
how we can make ourselves

1891
00:47:32,083 --> 00:47:33,708
more independent,

1892
00:47:33,708 --> 00:47:35,166
from, from the Bitcoin mentioned.

1893
00:47:35,166 --> 00:47:37,041
And that's an absolute necessity.

1894
00:47:37,041 --> 00:47:38,166
So the Bitcoin mania

1895
00:47:38,166 --> 00:47:38,791
or the bitcoin

1896
00:47:38,791 --> 00:47:39,583
on the bitcoin mentioned

1897
00:47:39,583 --> 00:47:40,958
really have to fulfill

1898
00:47:40,958 --> 00:47:42,750
this, this, this one purpose

1899
00:47:42,750 --> 00:47:44,250
of being the source of truth. Right.

1900
00:47:44,250 --> 00:47:45,500
So I have this

1901
00:47:45,500 --> 00:47:46,958
trip to graphically verified

1902
00:47:46,958 --> 00:47:48,125
1 to 1 relationship

1903
00:47:48,125 --> 00:47:49,083
between whatever layer

1904
00:47:49,083 --> 00:47:50,000
and even the layer three

1905
00:47:50,000 --> 00:47:51,166
or whatever is built on top.

1906
00:47:51,166 --> 00:47:52,291
So let's say lightning on August,

1907
00:47:52,291 --> 00:47:53,625
layer three is an arc.

1908
00:47:53,625 --> 00:47:54,500
All has to trickle down

1909
00:47:54,500 --> 00:47:55,625
to the same amount of Bitcoin,

1910
00:47:55,625 --> 00:47:56,708
so we can make sure there's

1911
00:47:56,708 --> 00:47:58,125
not more than 21 million,

1912
00:47:59,083 --> 00:47:59,875
that that is

1913
00:47:59,875 --> 00:48:00,875
that is the main purpose

1914
00:48:00,875 --> 00:48:03,000
but not every transaction

1915
00:48:03,000 --> 00:48:03,541
on the main channel

1916
00:48:03,541 --> 00:48:04,666
that can be avoided

1917
00:48:04,666 --> 00:48:05,583
should be avoided.

1918
00:48:05,583 --> 00:48:06,333
And liquid right now

1919
00:48:06,333 --> 00:48:07,791
is just the place to go.

1920
00:48:07,791 --> 00:48:09,875
Because it is rock solid,

1921
00:48:09,875 --> 00:48:11,625
it is up and operational

1922
00:48:11,625 --> 00:48:13,083
without any major hiccups.

1923
00:48:13,083 --> 00:48:14,791
Since 2018

1924
00:48:14,791 --> 00:48:16,583
it is a Bitcoin core fork.

1925
00:48:16,583 --> 00:48:17,375
So running

1926
00:48:17,375 --> 00:48:19,208
this is really easy

1927
00:48:19,208 --> 00:48:20,708
for anyone that knows

1928
00:48:20,708 --> 00:48:21,958
you could do it right.

1929
00:48:21,958 --> 00:48:23,666
So,

1930
00:48:23,666 --> 00:48:26,000
for, for, for corporate,

1931
00:48:26,000 --> 00:48:27,208
for a corporation to run this

1932
00:48:27,208 --> 00:48:28,166
and to even integrate it

1933
00:48:28,166 --> 00:48:29,458
as a foreign exchange

1934
00:48:29,458 --> 00:48:30,083
to integrate it.

1935
00:48:30,083 --> 00:48:31,458
It's it's that easy.

1936
00:48:31,458 --> 00:48:32,666
That is unsurprising

1937
00:48:32,666 --> 00:48:34,166
that the don't do that.

1938
00:48:34,166 --> 00:48:34,916
Because,

1939
00:48:34,916 --> 00:48:36,000
from a technical perspective,

1940
00:48:36,000 --> 00:48:37,625
it's literally zero effort.

1941
00:48:37,625 --> 00:48:39,958
It's really just managing the, the,

1942
00:48:39,958 --> 00:48:42,833
the liquid, the balances.

1943
00:48:42,833 --> 00:48:43,333
So yeah.

1944
00:48:43,333 --> 00:48:46,333
So it's, it's, it's, it's it's very

1945
00:48:46,333 --> 00:48:49,083
everything is stable and familiar.

1946
00:48:49,083 --> 00:48:50,041
And that's why

1947
00:48:50,041 --> 00:48:50,916
the moment it is,

1948
00:48:50,916 --> 00:48:51,875
it is the place to go.

1949
00:48:51,875 --> 00:48:53,375
But, no doubt that there

1950
00:48:53,375 --> 00:48:54,916
will be other interesting,

1951
00:48:55,875 --> 00:48:58,875
layers and places that

1952
00:48:59,166 --> 00:48:59,791
can absorb,

1953
00:48:59,791 --> 00:49:02,208
maintain activity in the future.

1954
00:49:02,208 --> 00:49:02,583
Yeah.

1955
00:49:02,583 --> 00:49:04,208
And, well and liquid

1956
00:49:04,208 --> 00:49:05,625
and I, I agree with you.

1957
00:49:05,625 --> 00:49:07,291
The, the usability of liquid is

1958
00:49:07,291 --> 00:49:08,833
is fantastic.

1959
00:49:08,833 --> 00:49:09,625
I mean,

1960
00:49:09,625 --> 00:49:11,375
you can do other things with liquid.

1961
00:49:11,375 --> 00:49:12,125
And I understand that

1962
00:49:12,125 --> 00:49:13,416
this is one of the purposes

1963
00:49:13,416 --> 00:49:14,250
that there are other

1964
00:49:14,250 --> 00:49:15,250
tokens and stuff.

1965
00:49:15,250 --> 00:49:17,000
And of course, there's a,

1966
00:49:17,000 --> 00:49:18,208
centralization to it.

1967
00:49:18,208 --> 00:49:19,083
But at the end of the day,

1968
00:49:19,083 --> 00:49:20,500
it's it's a it's a 1 to 1 peg

1969
00:49:20,500 --> 00:49:22,125
with the Bitcoin underneath it.

1970
00:49:22,125 --> 00:49:25,041
And, and so as far as I'm concerned

1971
00:49:25,041 --> 00:49:25,958
this is actually to,

1972
00:49:25,958 --> 00:49:27,500
to your point about,

1973
00:49:27,500 --> 00:49:28,833
getting as many transactions

1974
00:49:28,833 --> 00:49:29,458
off the base

1975
00:49:29,458 --> 00:49:30,458
chain as possible

1976
00:49:30,458 --> 00:49:31,625
that I completely agree

1977
00:49:31,625 --> 00:49:32,583
with because,

1978
00:49:32,583 --> 00:49:34,291
I, I gave a talk a few weeks back

1979
00:49:34,291 --> 00:49:36,125
about that basically,

1980
00:49:36,125 --> 00:49:36,833
the, the,

1981
00:49:36,833 --> 00:49:38,375
the gist of, of what I was saying

1982
00:49:38,375 --> 00:49:39,291
was that

1983
00:49:39,291 --> 00:49:40,625
everyone has an allotment of

1984
00:49:40,625 --> 00:49:42,125
about two transactions

1985
00:49:42,125 --> 00:49:42,750
over the course

1986
00:49:42,750 --> 00:49:44,375
of their entire lifetime.

1987
00:49:44,375 --> 00:49:45,666
If we're talking the number

1988
00:49:45,666 --> 00:49:46,625
of transactions

1989
00:49:46,625 --> 00:49:47,916
that will be in the blocks

1990
00:49:47,916 --> 00:49:49,500
over the course of a human lifetime,

1991
00:49:49,500 --> 00:49:50,166
about 70 years

1992
00:49:50,166 --> 00:49:50,708
or something like that,

1993
00:49:50,708 --> 00:49:51,833
we get about two.

1994
00:49:51,833 --> 00:49:52,958
And that's not counting

1995
00:49:52,958 --> 00:49:53,875
the human population

1996
00:49:53,875 --> 00:49:54,541
changes or something.

1997
00:49:54,541 --> 00:49:55,458
Shut up. Community.

1998
00:49:55,458 --> 00:49:55,791
Yeah.

1999
00:49:55,791 --> 00:49:57,333
But this is with the 8.5

2000
00:49:57,333 --> 00:49:58,708
billion people. That's.

2001
00:49:58,708 --> 00:49:59,791
What did I just say?

2002
00:49:59,791 --> 00:50:00,666
Yeah. Yeah. Sorry.

2003
00:50:02,250 --> 00:50:03,083
Don't worry about this.

2004
00:50:03,083 --> 00:50:05,708
And the the friendly banter is we

2005
00:50:05,708 --> 00:50:06,416
we love it.

2006
00:50:06,416 --> 00:50:06,708
Yeah.

2007
00:50:06,708 --> 00:50:08,041
I force Luke to edit it out,

2008
00:50:08,041 --> 00:50:09,750
so it's fine. Yeah. Basically.

2009
00:50:09,750 --> 00:50:11,583
No, no. Okay.

2010
00:50:11,583 --> 00:50:12,208
Returning to.

2011
00:50:12,208 --> 00:50:13,166
So you get about you

2012
00:50:13,166 --> 00:50:16,166
get about two, two transactions and,

2013
00:50:17,041 --> 00:50:17,500
Yeah, that

2014
00:50:17,500 --> 00:50:18,208
that's just, that's

2015
00:50:18,208 --> 00:50:19,583
just not going to, to scale.

2016
00:50:19,583 --> 00:50:21,250
Basically it is going to be through

2017
00:50:21,250 --> 00:50:22,833
through layers that we scale and,

2018
00:50:22,833 --> 00:50:24,333
and also the other side of that,

2019
00:50:24,333 --> 00:50:26,666
that that topic was

2020
00:50:26,666 --> 00:50:27,583
spam is not good.

2021
00:50:27,583 --> 00:50:28,958
And let's try to avoid

2022
00:50:28,958 --> 00:50:30,541
that as well, please.

2023
00:50:30,541 --> 00:50:32,125
But but in terms of,

2024
00:50:32,125 --> 00:50:33,750
in terms of liquid

2025
00:50:33,750 --> 00:50:34,208
being this

2026
00:50:34,208 --> 00:50:34,958
1 to 1 peg,

2027
00:50:34,958 --> 00:50:36,458
you can trust that you've got

2028
00:50:36,458 --> 00:50:38,416
the you've got the bitcoin

2029
00:50:38,416 --> 00:50:41,416
and you've got the, you've got the

2030
00:50:42,125 --> 00:50:43,166
on the other side,

2031
00:50:43,166 --> 00:50:45,250
you have that exact same number.

2032
00:50:45,250 --> 00:50:46,041
And of course you have to,

2033
00:50:46,041 --> 00:50:47,291
to trust a third party.

2034
00:50:47,291 --> 00:50:47,833
But then,

2035
00:50:47,833 --> 00:50:48,208
but then

2036
00:50:48,208 --> 00:50:49,458
the thing is really quite smooth.

2037
00:50:49,458 --> 00:50:50,833
It's it's a

2038
00:50:50,833 --> 00:50:52,083
transaction, sorry,

2039
00:50:52,083 --> 00:50:53,958
a block per minute.

2040
00:50:53,958 --> 00:50:55,416
And this, this brings me

2041
00:50:55,416 --> 00:50:56,000
to kind of the,

2042
00:50:56,000 --> 00:50:57,125
the UX of

2043
00:50:57,125 --> 00:50:59,250
of using these these swaps

2044
00:50:59,250 --> 00:51:00,333
and these payments.

2045
00:51:00,333 --> 00:51:01,208
I think this is really

2046
00:51:01,208 --> 00:51:03,125
the only actual downside

2047
00:51:03,125 --> 00:51:04,541
with, with using a swap

2048
00:51:04,541 --> 00:51:07,250
based system. I use Aqua Wallet.

2049
00:51:08,250 --> 00:51:08,791
It's turned

2050
00:51:08,791 --> 00:51:11,791
into my, my go to wallet because,

2051
00:51:12,666 --> 00:51:14,708
and not for any specific reason,

2052
00:51:14,708 --> 00:51:15,666
but it's the,

2053
00:51:15,666 --> 00:51:17,041
the main thing is that I can,

2054
00:51:17,041 --> 00:51:17,708
I can just

2055
00:51:17,708 --> 00:51:19,166
swap for my liquid balance

2056
00:51:19,166 --> 00:51:20,708
into my aqua wallet,

2057
00:51:20,708 --> 00:51:22,916
and then I can pay for stuff

2058
00:51:22,916 --> 00:51:24,125
over the lightning rails,

2059
00:51:24,125 --> 00:51:25,083
over the liquid rails.

2060
00:51:25,083 --> 00:51:26,166
I can accept the Bitcoin.

2061
00:51:26,166 --> 00:51:28,083
It's it's it's great.

2062
00:51:28,083 --> 00:51:29,083
The entire thing.

2063
00:51:29,083 --> 00:51:30,291
The only downside is

2064
00:51:30,291 --> 00:51:31,833
that it's a bit slower

2065
00:51:31,833 --> 00:51:33,208
than other Bitcoin wallets.

2066
00:51:33,208 --> 00:51:35,166
Sometimes it takes 30s,

2067
00:51:35,166 --> 00:51:36,208
sometimes it takes a minute,

2068
00:51:36,208 --> 00:51:37,125
sometimes it takes it's

2069
00:51:37,125 --> 00:51:38,041
I think it takes

2070
00:51:38,041 --> 00:51:38,875
longer than a minute

2071
00:51:38,875 --> 00:51:40,625
sometimes for the transaction

2072
00:51:40,625 --> 00:51:41,041
to go through.

2073
00:51:41,041 --> 00:51:42,000
And so it's not quite

2074
00:51:42,000 --> 00:51:43,708
this lightning fast

2075
00:51:43,708 --> 00:51:45,333
pun sort of intended

2076
00:51:45,333 --> 00:51:47,833
as, as going from a wallet

2077
00:51:47,833 --> 00:51:48,458
of Satoshi

2078
00:51:48,458 --> 00:51:49,291
to a blank wallet

2079
00:51:49,291 --> 00:51:50,583
or something like that,

2080
00:51:50,583 --> 00:51:51,833
where it's just a custodial

2081
00:51:51,833 --> 00:51:53,458
lightning provider,

2082
00:51:53,458 --> 00:51:55,291
one to the other. So, so.

2083
00:51:56,416 --> 00:51:57,416
What's what's the

2084
00:51:57,416 --> 00:51:58,333
what's the solution.

2085
00:51:58,333 --> 00:51:58,500
There?

2086
00:51:58,500 --> 00:51:58,708
Is it

2087
00:51:58,708 --> 00:51:59,708
is it always going to be

2088
00:51:59,708 --> 00:52:01,375
just a little bit of lag compared

2089
00:52:01,375 --> 00:52:02,958
to, to these other things

2090
00:52:02,958 --> 00:52:04,083
just because,

2091
00:52:04,083 --> 00:52:07,083
the swap goes through the, the,

2092
00:52:07,541 --> 00:52:08,958
liquid rails

2093
00:52:08,958 --> 00:52:09,916
or is there something else

2094
00:52:09,916 --> 00:52:10,416
going on there

2095
00:52:10,416 --> 00:52:11,708
technically that,

2096
00:52:11,708 --> 00:52:14,250
that I don't understand.

2097
00:52:14,250 --> 00:52:16,416
Enlighten us please.

2098
00:52:16,416 --> 00:52:17,583
Okay.

2099
00:52:17,583 --> 00:52:20,041
So, agua in general

2100
00:52:20,041 --> 00:52:23,041
has a little bit of lag, and Samson,

2101
00:52:23,250 --> 00:52:25,666
is implementation related, so,

2102
00:52:25,666 --> 00:52:26,583
the loading times

2103
00:52:26,583 --> 00:52:27,291
and all that stuff.

2104
00:52:27,291 --> 00:52:28,708
So that also makes agua

2105
00:52:28,708 --> 00:52:30,000
sometimes still a little bit slower,

2106
00:52:30,000 --> 00:52:31,416
but that's entirely fixable.

2107
00:52:31,416 --> 00:52:32,875
And a Samsung Optima,

2108
00:52:32,875 --> 00:52:34,250
they know about it.

2109
00:52:34,250 --> 00:52:35,250
I actually sent him

2110
00:52:35,250 --> 00:52:36,458
a long list of feedback

2111
00:52:36,458 --> 00:52:37,666
after adopting Bitcoin

2112
00:52:37,666 --> 00:52:38,791
because I use it as a

2113
00:52:38,791 --> 00:52:41,250
as my daily driver there as well.

2114
00:52:41,250 --> 00:52:41,916
What to fix.

2115
00:52:41,916 --> 00:52:43,208
And, I'm confident

2116
00:52:43,208 --> 00:52:44,750
things will be faster and snappier

2117
00:52:44,750 --> 00:52:46,416
from, from the UX perspective

2118
00:52:46,416 --> 00:52:48,750
for the lightning payment, itself.

2119
00:52:48,750 --> 00:52:50,041
So what is happening under the hood

2120
00:52:50,041 --> 00:52:51,958
when you do a lightning payment is,

2121
00:52:51,958 --> 00:52:52,875
you send,

2122
00:52:52,875 --> 00:52:55,541
liquid bitcoin into a swap.

2123
00:52:55,541 --> 00:52:57,208
So it's being locked up on the on

2124
00:52:57,208 --> 00:52:58,083
and the lock up address

2125
00:52:58,083 --> 00:53:00,083
on, on the, on the liquid chain

2126
00:53:00,083 --> 00:53:00,958
and but technically

2127
00:53:00,958 --> 00:53:02,000
it takes up to a minute

2128
00:53:02,000 --> 00:53:03,875
depending on the time

2129
00:53:03,875 --> 00:53:04,416
that you

2130
00:53:04,416 --> 00:53:05,583
the time between two blocks

2131
00:53:05,583 --> 00:53:07,250
that you got there,

2132
00:53:07,250 --> 00:53:08,666
could take up to 60s

2133
00:53:08,666 --> 00:53:10,958
if we, if we were waiting for,

2134
00:53:10,958 --> 00:53:11,708
one confirmation.

2135
00:53:11,708 --> 00:53:13,291
So actually on liquid

2136
00:53:13,291 --> 00:53:13,958
the design

2137
00:53:13,958 --> 00:53:14,500
and that's why

2138
00:53:14,500 --> 00:53:15,083
we are in close

2139
00:53:15,083 --> 00:53:16,208
contact with Blockstream

2140
00:53:16,208 --> 00:53:17,375
is to actually keeps

2141
00:53:17,375 --> 00:53:18,416
their account safe.

2142
00:53:18,416 --> 00:53:19,333
So we know now.

2143
00:53:19,333 --> 00:53:20,208
And we learned that,

2144
00:53:20,208 --> 00:53:21,458
zero comes on the main chain

2145
00:53:21,458 --> 00:53:24,000
as a no go. And, since mempool.

2146
00:53:24,000 --> 00:53:24,750
Thanks. Peter Toth.

2147
00:53:25,708 --> 00:53:27,041
Is is a thing we

2148
00:53:27,041 --> 00:53:28,500
there's just no zero code anymore.

2149
00:53:28,500 --> 00:53:29,125
And if you do it,

2150
00:53:29,125 --> 00:53:30,125
then it's just a high,

2151
00:53:30,125 --> 00:53:31,625
very high risk,

2152
00:53:31,625 --> 00:53:32,875
and liquid to design.

2153
00:53:32,875 --> 00:53:34,416
And the intention,

2154
00:53:34,416 --> 00:53:35,416
of the technical design

2155
00:53:35,416 --> 00:53:38,041
is to keep that safe and actually,

2156
00:53:38,041 --> 00:53:39,750
quite the contrary, make it safer.

2157
00:53:39,750 --> 00:53:41,250
So we're working on certain internal

2158
00:53:41,250 --> 00:53:44,291
tooling to actually, make liquid,

2159
00:53:45,416 --> 00:53:46,541
silicon transactions

2160
00:53:46,541 --> 00:53:48,750
for anyone safe to accept.

2161
00:53:48,750 --> 00:53:49,916
And that is the upside

2162
00:53:49,916 --> 00:53:50,958
of the centralization

2163
00:53:50,958 --> 00:53:52,583
of the 15 functionaries

2164
00:53:52,583 --> 00:53:55,041
that produce, the liquid blocks.

2165
00:53:55,041 --> 00:53:56,166
And very simple terms.

2166
00:53:56,166 --> 00:53:57,958
If all 15 functionaries

2167
00:53:57,958 --> 00:53:59,041
tell you

2168
00:53:59,041 --> 00:53:59,541
I have two

2169
00:53:59,541 --> 00:54:00,750
transactions in my mempool,

2170
00:54:00,750 --> 00:54:02,916
I will included in a block,

2171
00:54:02,916 --> 00:54:03,875
it's pretty safe

2172
00:54:03,875 --> 00:54:05,625
to accept that transaction.

2173
00:54:05,625 --> 00:54:07,791
And that's basically

2174
00:54:07,791 --> 00:54:08,708
you should leverage

2175
00:54:08,708 --> 00:54:09,500
you should embrace

2176
00:54:09,500 --> 00:54:10,208
that centralization

2177
00:54:10,208 --> 00:54:11,708
of that actually leverage,

2178
00:54:11,708 --> 00:54:12,875
leverage for that.

2179
00:54:12,875 --> 00:54:14,250
And that's what we're doing. Right.

2180
00:54:14,250 --> 00:54:16,500
So, we are accepting zero

2181
00:54:16,500 --> 00:54:17,375
transactions still

2182
00:54:17,375 --> 00:54:18,208
with an upper limit.

2183
00:54:20,125 --> 00:54:21,208
But we definitely can

2184
00:54:21,208 --> 00:54:21,875
increase the limit

2185
00:54:21,875 --> 00:54:24,333
and make these transactions

2186
00:54:24,333 --> 00:54:25,500
maybe total round trip type,

2187
00:54:25,500 --> 00:54:26,375
maybe like something

2188
00:54:26,375 --> 00:54:27,666
like 2 or 3 seconds

2189
00:54:27,666 --> 00:54:29,375
where you should be,

2190
00:54:29,375 --> 00:54:31,750
having, your liquid, Bitcoin

2191
00:54:31,750 --> 00:54:32,791
being accepted by bolts

2192
00:54:32,791 --> 00:54:33,750
and then both start paying

2193
00:54:33,750 --> 00:54:35,583
the lightning in was already

2194
00:54:35,583 --> 00:54:37,083
so that is

2195
00:54:37,083 --> 00:54:37,666
as far

2196
00:54:37,666 --> 00:54:38,791
that should be technically

2197
00:54:38,791 --> 00:54:40,750
as fast as Phoenix.

2198
00:54:40,750 --> 00:54:41,291
In the future.

2199
00:54:41,291 --> 00:54:41,708
Right now,

2200
00:54:41,708 --> 00:54:42,666
there are certain delays

2201
00:54:42,666 --> 00:54:43,583
for security reasons

2202
00:54:43,583 --> 00:54:44,958
and each and every step.

2203
00:54:44,958 --> 00:54:46,208
So you always end up

2204
00:54:46,208 --> 00:54:47,375
you always end up with a

2205
00:54:47,375 --> 00:54:48,541
with a slower time,

2206
00:54:48,541 --> 00:54:50,166
but it will always be a native

2207
00:54:50,166 --> 00:54:50,750
lightning payments.

2208
00:54:50,750 --> 00:54:51,958
It will never be as fast

2209
00:54:51,958 --> 00:54:53,041
as a wallet of Satoshi

2210
00:54:53,041 --> 00:54:54,666
to wallet of Satoshi transaction,

2211
00:54:54,666 --> 00:54:56,208
which is just a database

2212
00:54:56,208 --> 00:54:56,916
transaction, right?

2213
00:54:56,916 --> 00:54:58,250
So that one is always faster.

2214
00:54:58,250 --> 00:55:00,041
That's unbeatable.

2215
00:55:00,041 --> 00:55:00,958
We have to live with that.

2216
00:55:00,958 --> 00:55:02,000
But that's okay.

2217
00:55:02,000 --> 00:55:02,666
Now of course.

2218
00:55:02,666 --> 00:55:03,750
And well, and actually,

2219
00:55:03,750 --> 00:55:04,875
I can say from,

2220
00:55:04,875 --> 00:55:06,208
from experience,

2221
00:55:06,208 --> 00:55:07,458
using the lightning

2222
00:55:07,458 --> 00:55:09,125
side of, of bolts,

2223
00:55:10,166 --> 00:55:11,458
swapping in or making a

2224
00:55:11,458 --> 00:55:12,208
payment from,

2225
00:55:12,208 --> 00:55:13,458
from liquid,

2226
00:55:13,458 --> 00:55:16,208
the as soon as the, the

2227
00:55:16,208 --> 00:55:17,625
like if I'm making a payment

2228
00:55:17,625 --> 00:55:20,125
from a channel, a lightning channel,

2229
00:55:20,125 --> 00:55:21,000
bolts receives it.

2230
00:55:21,000 --> 00:55:21,708
And the process.

2231
00:55:21,708 --> 00:55:22,916
Is it like I don't

2232
00:55:22,916 --> 00:55:24,166
I don't even have time to switch

2233
00:55:24,166 --> 00:55:25,166
the tab. It's already.

2234
00:55:25,166 --> 00:55:27,500
It's already done.

2235
00:55:27,500 --> 00:55:29,291
So, yeah, I can I can speak to that.

2236
00:55:29,291 --> 00:55:30,375
Things that things appear

2237
00:55:30,375 --> 00:55:31,125
to be really quite

2238
00:55:31,125 --> 00:55:32,458
tight on the, on the bolts.

2239
00:55:32,458 --> 00:55:33,166
And it's just

2240
00:55:33,166 --> 00:55:34,916
using the different technologies

2241
00:55:34,916 --> 00:55:36,625
in, in concert I guess.

2242
00:55:36,625 --> 00:55:37,291
Kind of

2243
00:55:37,291 --> 00:55:38,583
makes it complicated,

2244
00:55:38,583 --> 00:55:40,291
but nice to know that it's,

2245
00:55:40,291 --> 00:55:41,500
nice to know that it's improving.

2246
00:55:41,500 --> 00:55:42,458
Yes. And it will be.

2247
00:55:42,458 --> 00:55:43,666
It will be faster.

2248
00:55:43,666 --> 00:55:46,291
If I was to do a tldr on on

2249
00:55:46,291 --> 00:55:47,583
like your back

2250
00:55:47,583 --> 00:55:49,166
and forth over the last 20 minutes,

2251
00:55:49,166 --> 00:55:50,000
it would be it

2252
00:55:50,000 --> 00:55:50,625
20 minutes,

2253
00:55:50,625 --> 00:55:51,458
it would have been

2254
00:55:51,458 --> 00:55:53,916
liquid is pretty solid, like.

2255
00:55:55,333 --> 00:55:55,833
I would say.

2256
00:55:55,833 --> 00:55:56,958
So yeah.

2257
00:55:56,958 --> 00:55:57,458
I mean,

2258
00:55:57,458 --> 00:55:58,708
I learned about

2259
00:55:58,708 --> 00:56:01,708
liquid myself on the,

2260
00:56:02,083 --> 00:56:03,416
right before we, you know,

2261
00:56:03,416 --> 00:56:04,708
when we started integrating it,

2262
00:56:04,708 --> 00:56:06,875
I had no idea what liquid was, and

2263
00:56:06,875 --> 00:56:08,125
I had to read up stuff.

2264
00:56:08,125 --> 00:56:09,458
And I was skeptical for,

2265
00:56:09,458 --> 00:56:10,208
for quite some time,

2266
00:56:10,208 --> 00:56:10,958
but also was the reason

2267
00:56:10,958 --> 00:56:12,416
why we had this integration

2268
00:56:12,416 --> 00:56:13,208
there sitting around.

2269
00:56:13,208 --> 00:56:14,083
It didn't really finish it.

2270
00:56:14,083 --> 00:56:15,166
We didn't have a reason for it

2271
00:56:15,166 --> 00:56:15,916
and was like, okay,

2272
00:56:15,916 --> 00:56:16,916
I don't know how it will

2273
00:56:16,916 --> 00:56:18,750
will be perceived by the market,

2274
00:56:18,750 --> 00:56:20,708
you know, like,

2275
00:56:20,708 --> 00:56:22,500
but knowing no liquid

2276
00:56:22,500 --> 00:56:24,208
and no knowing the,

2277
00:56:24,208 --> 00:56:27,208
the people at work on liquid,

2278
00:56:27,458 --> 00:56:29,875
I, I am of the opinion

2279
00:56:29,875 --> 00:56:31,291
liquid is a pretty solid project.

2280
00:56:31,291 --> 00:56:33,958
So because the the amount of effort

2281
00:56:33,958 --> 00:56:35,666
and research resources

2282
00:56:35,666 --> 00:56:37,625
that Blockstream spent

2283
00:56:37,625 --> 00:56:39,458
to make liquid, solid

2284
00:56:39,458 --> 00:56:41,375
and reliable is immense,

2285
00:56:41,375 --> 00:56:43,208
you don't see any of that

2286
00:56:43,208 --> 00:56:45,166
on the outside. Nothing of that.

2287
00:56:45,166 --> 00:56:46,250
But the fact that it didn't

2288
00:56:46,250 --> 00:56:48,041
have a single downtime

2289
00:56:48,041 --> 00:56:48,541
since I think

2290
00:56:48,541 --> 00:56:51,625
one small incident in November 2018,

2291
00:56:51,666 --> 00:56:53,208
there was a 19.

2292
00:56:53,208 --> 00:56:54,166
There wasn't a downtime, right?

2293
00:56:54,166 --> 00:56:56,166
So that that means quite something.

2294
00:56:56,166 --> 00:56:57,750
And there's nothing oxymoronic

2295
00:56:57,750 --> 00:56:58,791
about something liquid

2296
00:56:58,791 --> 00:56:59,833
being solid at all.

2297
00:57:03,791 --> 00:57:04,708
Yes.

2298
00:57:04,708 --> 00:57:06,416
He always manages to find this.

2299
00:57:06,416 --> 00:57:09,083
He always manages to find his isn't.

2300
00:57:09,083 --> 00:57:10,250
Oh, okay.

2301
00:57:10,250 --> 00:57:11,458
From one thing to another,

2302
00:57:11,458 --> 00:57:13,541
that, jokes aside, like,

2303
00:57:13,541 --> 00:57:16,541
there's I've met a couple of,

2304
00:57:17,291 --> 00:57:18,750
rootstock advocates

2305
00:57:18,750 --> 00:57:19,916
in, in Buenos Aires.

2306
00:57:19,916 --> 00:57:22,000
You mentioned rootstock before.

2307
00:57:22,000 --> 00:57:24,750
I'm I'm very unfamiliar

2308
00:57:24,750 --> 00:57:25,416
with the project.

2309
00:57:25,416 --> 00:57:25,750
Still,

2310
00:57:25,750 --> 00:57:27,833
they try to explain some stuff, but,

2311
00:57:27,833 --> 00:57:28,833
yeah, a lot of that

2312
00:57:28,833 --> 00:57:30,000
flew over my head.

2313
00:57:30,000 --> 00:57:32,583
So, like,

2314
00:57:32,583 --> 00:57:34,583
what's rootstock and is it

2315
00:57:34,583 --> 00:57:37,583
solid?

2316
00:57:38,375 --> 00:57:38,958
Rootstock

2317
00:57:38,958 --> 00:57:41,958
is pretty similar to, to liquid.

2318
00:57:42,083 --> 00:57:43,750
So to the solid part,

2319
00:57:43,750 --> 00:57:45,000
let's come to it. Maybe in the end.

2320
00:57:45,000 --> 00:57:47,208
So, rootstock is a sidechain

2321
00:57:47,208 --> 00:57:48,333
just like liquid is

2322
00:57:48,333 --> 00:57:49,916
based on the same principles.

2323
00:57:49,916 --> 00:57:51,791
There are a couple of

2324
00:57:51,791 --> 00:57:53,583
technical differences

2325
00:57:53,583 --> 00:57:55,416
or maybe first of similarities.

2326
00:57:55,416 --> 00:57:57,041
It is a sidechain.

2327
00:57:57,041 --> 00:57:58,125
It has a federation

2328
00:57:58,125 --> 00:57:59,375
that is custodian.

2329
00:57:59,375 --> 00:58:00,958
That is a big multisig custody

2330
00:58:00,958 --> 00:58:02,833
being the one to unpack with

2331
00:58:02,833 --> 00:58:05,166
RPC helps called on on rootstock.

2332
00:58:05,166 --> 00:58:07,125
So bitcoin versus

2333
00:58:07,125 --> 00:58:08,583
mentioned bitcoin same way

2334
00:58:08,583 --> 00:58:09,750
liquid bitcoin

2335
00:58:09,750 --> 00:58:10,833
versus the mentioned bitcoin.

2336
00:58:12,541 --> 00:58:12,708
Yeah.

2337
00:58:12,708 --> 00:58:13,333
It's a sidechain is

2338
00:58:13,333 --> 00:58:14,125
a blockchain based.

2339
00:58:14,125 --> 00:58:15,041
It has block intervals.

2340
00:58:15,041 --> 00:58:16,666
It has 30s

2341
00:58:16,666 --> 00:58:17,541
block intervals

2342
00:58:17,541 --> 00:58:19,291
instead of one minute

2343
00:58:19,291 --> 00:58:20,708
like liquid does.

2344
00:58:20,708 --> 00:58:22,208
And one major difference

2345
00:58:22,208 --> 00:58:25,208
is that in rootstock, the

2346
00:58:26,166 --> 00:58:28,833
the federation that guards,

2347
00:58:28,833 --> 00:58:29,375
the multisig,

2348
00:58:29,375 --> 00:58:31,041
the RPC is separate

2349
00:58:31,041 --> 00:58:32,125
from the block producer.

2350
00:58:32,125 --> 00:58:32,916
So in liquid it's

2351
00:58:32,916 --> 00:58:33,291
the same

2352
00:58:33,291 --> 00:58:34,875
15 entities

2353
00:58:34,875 --> 00:58:35,750
called functionaries

2354
00:58:35,750 --> 00:58:37,541
that do both to do the,

2355
00:58:37,541 --> 00:58:39,583
the two card, the LTC pack,

2356
00:58:39,583 --> 00:58:40,875
but also produce the blocks

2357
00:58:40,875 --> 00:58:42,250
now have the mempool running and

2358
00:58:42,250 --> 00:58:43,666
and basically

2359
00:58:43,666 --> 00:58:44,958
put transactions on blocks

2360
00:58:44,958 --> 00:58:46,625
and attach them to the chain

2361
00:58:46,625 --> 00:58:47,375
and rootstock.

2362
00:58:47,375 --> 00:58:48,958
It's actually the actual

2363
00:58:48,958 --> 00:58:50,291
Bitcoin miners that do that.

2364
00:58:50,291 --> 00:58:52,583
The rootstock is being, secured.

2365
00:58:52,583 --> 00:58:53,750
And block production

2366
00:58:53,750 --> 00:58:54,625
happens on

2367
00:58:54,625 --> 00:58:55,791
a, on a

2368
00:58:55,791 --> 00:58:57,750
mechanism called merchant mining.

2369
00:58:57,750 --> 00:58:59,250
So about I think right now

2370
00:58:59,250 --> 00:58:59,625
it's about

2371
00:58:59,625 --> 00:59:01,416
60% is is changing

2372
00:59:01,416 --> 00:59:02,458
because of new mining

2373
00:59:02,458 --> 00:59:03,875
farms coming up and stuff.

2374
00:59:03,875 --> 00:59:04,416
But around

2375
00:59:04,416 --> 00:59:05,375
between 50

2376
00:59:05,375 --> 00:59:07,500
and 60% of the bitcoin miners,

2377
00:59:07,500 --> 00:59:08,583
which is pretty decent

2378
00:59:08,583 --> 00:59:11,208
hash rate, is securing,

2379
00:59:11,208 --> 00:59:13,166
the, rootstock sidechain

2380
00:59:13,166 --> 00:59:14,458
at the same time.

2381
00:59:14,458 --> 00:59:17,458
And merged mining in simple terms,

2382
00:59:17,500 --> 00:59:20,041
is interesting for miners to do that

2383
00:59:20,041 --> 00:59:21,083
because they get a

2384
00:59:21,083 --> 00:59:23,333
part of the piece,

2385
00:59:23,333 --> 00:59:23,625
you know,

2386
00:59:23,625 --> 00:59:25,083
the fees that are being spent on the

2387
00:59:25,083 --> 00:59:25,958
on the roots of sidechain

2388
00:59:25,958 --> 00:59:26,833
as their reward.

2389
00:59:26,833 --> 00:59:27,750
So it's an additional

2390
00:59:27,750 --> 00:59:29,458
and an additional income.

2391
00:59:29,458 --> 00:59:30,333
And that is important part

2392
00:59:30,333 --> 00:59:31,458
without extra costs.

2393
00:59:31,458 --> 00:59:34,083
Right. So merch mining is for free.

2394
00:59:34,083 --> 00:59:34,875
And also they don't

2395
00:59:34,875 --> 00:59:36,333
have to put up more power

2396
00:59:36,333 --> 00:59:38,208
or more electricity

2397
00:59:38,208 --> 00:59:40,208
in order to mine Woodstock, as well.

2398
00:59:41,625 --> 00:59:44,041
The technical

2399
00:59:44,041 --> 00:59:46,708
underlying concepts of rootstock are

2400
00:59:46,708 --> 00:59:48,666
pretty sound, I would say.

2401
00:59:48,666 --> 00:59:49,208
The PAC

2402
00:59:49,208 --> 00:59:50,500
meta mechanism is,

2403
00:59:50,500 --> 00:59:51,708
on a technical level, different

2404
00:59:51,708 --> 00:59:52,833
than the one used.

2405
00:59:52,833 --> 00:59:54,125
And and liquid,

2406
00:59:54,125 --> 00:59:55,833
but is proven it's live

2407
00:59:55,833 --> 00:59:58,083
since 2018 as well.

2408
00:59:58,083 --> 00:59:59,041
Actually, before liquid

2409
00:59:59,041 --> 01:00:00,208
launched, the rootstock launched

2410
01:00:00,208 --> 01:00:02,791
I think in January 2018.

2411
01:00:02,791 --> 01:00:03,583
So early 20.

2412
01:00:03,583 --> 01:00:06,791
18 and liquid launched some, maybe

2413
01:00:07,375 --> 01:00:08,250
in November.

2414
01:00:08,250 --> 01:00:09,958
So pretty much at the same time.

2415
01:00:09,958 --> 01:00:10,333
And fossil

2416
01:00:10,333 --> 01:00:11,375
was really a no brainer

2417
01:00:11,375 --> 01:00:12,583
to integrate rootstock as well

2418
01:00:12,583 --> 01:00:15,583
because it's just the similarities.

2419
01:00:15,875 --> 01:00:16,416
Are there.

2420
01:00:16,416 --> 01:00:18,791
And additionally,

2421
01:00:18,791 --> 01:00:19,875
rootstock has its own

2422
01:00:19,875 --> 01:00:20,708
pond ecosystem.

2423
01:00:20,708 --> 01:00:21,458
And that is

2424
01:00:21,458 --> 01:00:22,250
that's probably a part

2425
01:00:22,250 --> 01:00:23,375
of the technical difference

2426
01:00:23,375 --> 01:00:24,666
that you won't like. Node.

2427
01:00:24,666 --> 01:00:26,875
Is that it's not a utx O

2428
01:00:26,875 --> 01:00:28,458
based chain.

2429
01:00:28,458 --> 01:00:30,041
It is an account model.

2430
01:00:30,041 --> 01:00:31,833
And the idea is to basically

2431
01:00:31,833 --> 01:00:34,916
be compatible with the Ethereum EVM

2432
01:00:35,208 --> 01:00:35,708
in order

2433
01:00:35,708 --> 01:00:36,375
to make it easy

2434
01:00:36,375 --> 01:00:37,000
for broader

2435
01:00:37,000 --> 01:00:39,583
for projects to move, to move over.

2436
01:00:39,583 --> 01:00:41,083
So the, the, the, the picture

2437
01:00:41,083 --> 01:00:42,208
fruits like it's basically,

2438
01:00:43,750 --> 01:00:44,416
poured over your

2439
01:00:44,416 --> 01:00:45,125
DeFi project

2440
01:00:45,125 --> 01:00:45,875
from Ethereum

2441
01:00:45,875 --> 01:00:48,250
or some other EVM ecosystem

2442
01:00:48,250 --> 01:00:49,583
to rootstock

2443
01:00:49,583 --> 01:00:51,458
make everything be based on Bitcoin.

2444
01:00:51,458 --> 01:00:52,833
It's all RPC back.

2445
01:00:52,833 --> 01:00:55,416
There's no, you know, other token,

2446
01:00:55,416 --> 01:00:56,250
involved than that.

2447
01:00:56,250 --> 01:00:57,750
And that's basically the premise.

2448
01:00:57,750 --> 01:00:59,458
And to be very, very secure

2449
01:00:59,458 --> 01:01:01,083
because of the high Bitcoin

2450
01:01:01,083 --> 01:01:02,375
miner hashrate that is,

2451
01:01:02,375 --> 01:01:04,416
you know, securing the network okay.

2452
01:01:04,416 --> 01:01:05,125
So you

2453
01:01:05,125 --> 01:01:07,375
you have these semi secure

2454
01:01:07,375 --> 01:01:09,875
bitcoin securities

2455
01:01:09,875 --> 01:01:11,916
like the rootstock Bitcoin

2456
01:01:11,916 --> 01:01:14,375
the pegged ones as,

2457
01:01:14,375 --> 01:01:17,375
as an anchor to whatever,

2458
01:01:17,375 --> 01:01:17,916
stupid shit

2459
01:01:17,916 --> 01:01:18,583
coin project

2460
01:01:18,583 --> 01:01:21,583
you want to spew out from your crap.

2461
01:01:21,750 --> 01:01:22,208
All right.

2462
01:01:22,208 --> 01:01:24,541
So but but is,

2463
01:01:24,541 --> 01:01:26,166
is there a risk there?

2464
01:01:26,166 --> 01:01:27,250
Like what?

2465
01:01:27,250 --> 01:01:28,833
Merged mining and everything.

2466
01:01:28,833 --> 01:01:29,916
It sounds to me like that

2467
01:01:29,916 --> 01:01:30,458
this is

2468
01:01:30,458 --> 01:01:32,208
could potentially be messing

2469
01:01:32,208 --> 01:01:34,958
with miner incentives.

2470
01:01:34,958 --> 01:01:37,750
Somehow,

2471
01:01:37,750 --> 01:01:38,166
One way.

2472
01:01:39,791 --> 01:01:42,041
Well,

2473
01:01:42,041 --> 01:01:44,750
the,

2474
01:01:44,750 --> 01:01:46,166
from my perspective, like, the

2475
01:01:46,166 --> 01:01:47,000
the more

2476
01:01:47,000 --> 01:01:48,250
the more pure

2477
01:01:48,250 --> 01:01:50,333
the miner incentives are,

2478
01:01:50,333 --> 01:01:50,625
like,

2479
01:01:50,625 --> 01:01:52,625
the more their only incentives

2480
01:01:52,625 --> 01:01:53,916
are to mine bitcoin

2481
01:01:53,916 --> 01:01:56,666
and that for for the rewards,

2482
01:01:56,666 --> 01:01:59,666
the subsidy and the fees, the better

2483
01:01:59,875 --> 01:02:00,458
it is.

2484
01:02:00,458 --> 01:02:01,041
Then again,

2485
01:02:01,041 --> 01:02:02,958
I do believe that there's a future

2486
01:02:02,958 --> 01:02:05,166
where miners will have to use

2487
01:02:05,166 --> 01:02:06,041
their excess heat

2488
01:02:06,041 --> 01:02:07,208
and stuff for other stuff

2489
01:02:07,208 --> 01:02:09,166
in order to be profitable at all.

2490
01:02:09,166 --> 01:02:10,541
So there's

2491
01:02:10,541 --> 01:02:12,208
there's bound to be other incentives

2492
01:02:12,208 --> 01:02:14,333
going into it.

2493
01:02:14,333 --> 01:02:15,833
I just really, really,

2494
01:02:15,833 --> 01:02:17,375
really don't like Ethereum

2495
01:02:17,375 --> 01:02:18,750
and anything,

2496
01:02:18,750 --> 01:02:20,458
connected to it's having like,

2497
01:02:20,458 --> 01:02:21,708
messing with Bitcoin,

2498
01:02:21,708 --> 01:02:22,500
the incentives.

2499
01:02:22,500 --> 01:02:23,875
But maybe that's not a risk.

2500
01:02:23,875 --> 01:02:25,625
Like,

2501
01:02:25,625 --> 01:02:26,166
Yeah.

2502
01:02:26,166 --> 01:02:28,083
Good idea for something here.

2503
01:02:28,083 --> 01:02:29,041
Yeah.

2504
01:02:29,041 --> 01:02:29,583
Good question.

2505
01:02:29,583 --> 01:02:31,083
So I never really

2506
01:02:31,083 --> 01:02:33,125
did dig into that too much.

2507
01:02:33,125 --> 01:02:33,958
So you are hinting

2508
01:02:33,958 --> 01:02:36,291
at something like, you know, maybe,

2509
01:02:36,291 --> 01:02:38,583
my restricted value being possible

2510
01:02:38,583 --> 01:02:40,166
and mine is being distracted

2511
01:02:40,166 --> 01:02:41,583
with Dan sometimes from,

2512
01:02:42,750 --> 01:02:44,583
you know, the, the Bitcoin

2513
01:02:44,583 --> 01:02:45,500
main chain.

2514
01:02:45,500 --> 01:02:47,041
But then it's really it's separate

2515
01:02:47,041 --> 01:02:49,291
to this to this ecosystem there.

2516
01:02:49,291 --> 01:02:50,500
So yeah

2517
01:02:50,500 --> 01:02:51,083
I don't think

2518
01:02:51,083 --> 01:02:52,166
it should be messing

2519
01:02:52,166 --> 01:02:53,375
with anything happening

2520
01:02:53,375 --> 01:02:55,416
on the Bitcoin maintaining at all.

2521
01:02:55,416 --> 01:02:56,291
What a good opinion.

2522
01:02:56,291 --> 01:02:59,083
What a good analogy.

2523
01:02:59,083 --> 01:03:00,875
Be like a gold miner

2524
01:03:00,875 --> 01:03:02,458
digging for gold and also

2525
01:03:02,458 --> 01:03:04,208
finding some other substance

2526
01:03:04,208 --> 01:03:05,083
that they're using

2527
01:03:05,083 --> 01:03:06,208
for something else.

2528
01:03:06,208 --> 01:03:07,500
Because they might as well dig

2529
01:03:07,500 --> 01:03:09,166
for that as it's likely.

2530
01:03:09,166 --> 01:03:09,875
So they discovered

2531
01:03:09,875 --> 01:03:10,750
some silver as well

2532
01:03:10,750 --> 01:03:12,208
to discover some other,

2533
01:03:12,208 --> 01:03:13,166
you know, metal that is

2534
01:03:13,166 --> 01:03:14,041
that is precious.

2535
01:03:14,041 --> 01:03:15,458
And, yeah,

2536
01:03:15,458 --> 01:03:16,208
I think that's,

2537
01:03:16,208 --> 01:03:18,125
that's a valid analogy.

2538
01:03:18,125 --> 01:03:19,166
Yeah.

2539
01:03:19,166 --> 01:03:20,708
Even though the silver

2540
01:03:20,708 --> 01:03:23,708
might be used for for selling,

2541
01:03:25,083 --> 01:03:27,083
some, some crap to people.

2542
01:03:27,083 --> 01:03:28,083
Well, well, anyway,

2543
01:03:28,083 --> 01:03:30,250
I can't take that analogy

2544
01:03:30,250 --> 01:03:31,041
any further

2545
01:03:31,041 --> 01:03:32,166
because it doesn't really work

2546
01:03:32,166 --> 01:03:33,083
with there's

2547
01:03:33,083 --> 01:03:34,833
only one element zero there.

2548
01:03:34,833 --> 01:03:36,708
There aren't stable isotopes of it.

2549
01:03:36,708 --> 01:03:39,708
So like the. Yeah.

2550
01:03:39,791 --> 01:03:40,416
Well and

2551
01:03:40,416 --> 01:03:41,791
I think the, the follow on to this

2552
01:03:41,791 --> 01:03:42,333
is that this

2553
01:03:42,333 --> 01:03:43,500
this is exactly

2554
01:03:43,500 --> 01:03:45,583
along with our thread recently

2555
01:03:45,583 --> 01:03:47,000
we've been having some discussions

2556
01:03:47,000 --> 01:03:50,000
about about this type of thing like,

2557
01:03:50,375 --> 01:03:51,541
coins on Bitcoin and,

2558
01:03:51,541 --> 01:03:54,208
and basically my, my view, our view

2559
01:03:54,208 --> 01:03:55,416
I think is, is pretty much

2560
01:03:55,416 --> 01:03:56,958
as long as they fuck off

2561
01:03:56,958 --> 01:03:58,208
and they're not doing

2562
01:03:58,208 --> 01:03:59,041
what they're doing on

2563
01:03:59,041 --> 01:04:00,125
the main chain, like,

2564
01:04:01,166 --> 01:04:01,958
if someone has to do

2565
01:04:01,958 --> 01:04:03,583
a peg in okay, that's that's fine.

2566
01:04:03,583 --> 01:04:05,750
That's you're, you're moving your UT

2567
01:04:05,750 --> 01:04:07,000
from one address to another

2568
01:04:07,000 --> 01:04:09,375
that's completely compatible with,

2569
01:04:09,375 --> 01:04:11,208
with Bitcoin in general.

2570
01:04:11,208 --> 01:04:13,500
And then you go off on your side

2571
01:04:13,500 --> 01:04:14,958
chain or your side

2572
01:04:14,958 --> 01:04:15,750
layer or whatever

2573
01:04:15,750 --> 01:04:16,833
you want to call it, and,

2574
01:04:16,833 --> 01:04:18,666
and do your thing.

2575
01:04:18,666 --> 01:04:19,625
And then eventually

2576
01:04:19,625 --> 01:04:21,541
you can peg back in

2577
01:04:21,541 --> 01:04:23,125
your bitcoin or not.

2578
01:04:23,125 --> 01:04:24,666
And that's your choice.

2579
01:04:24,666 --> 01:04:27,000
And I think that model is is fine

2580
01:04:27,000 --> 01:04:27,583
because people think.

2581
01:04:27,583 --> 01:04:28,833
That's the case for loops. So yes.

2582
01:04:28,833 --> 01:04:30,750
So if if the definitely

2583
01:04:30,750 --> 01:04:31,291
I mean

2584
01:04:31,291 --> 01:04:32,333
if you have an IBM,

2585
01:04:32,333 --> 01:04:32,708
you have,

2586
01:04:32,708 --> 01:04:33,625
you know,

2587
01:04:33,625 --> 01:04:35,041
Turing complete

2588
01:04:35,041 --> 01:04:37,000
programmability then things,

2589
01:04:37,000 --> 01:04:37,875
people will do things

2590
01:04:37,875 --> 01:04:39,208
and you can prevent that.

2591
01:04:39,208 --> 01:04:40,708
But that is, that is, that is,

2592
01:04:40,708 --> 01:04:43,125
that is okay. Not in my opinion.

2593
01:04:43,125 --> 01:04:44,416
Just let let them do it.

2594
01:04:44,416 --> 01:04:44,916
And if it's,

2595
01:04:44,916 --> 01:04:46,916
if it's, confined to this,

2596
01:04:46,916 --> 01:04:48,250
like I said, to this,

2597
01:04:48,250 --> 01:04:49,666
space on this layer,

2598
01:04:50,750 --> 01:04:51,875
why not let them,

2599
01:04:51,875 --> 01:04:53,375
let them, let them fool around.

2600
01:04:53,375 --> 01:04:54,875
What what really,

2601
01:04:54,875 --> 01:04:57,625
excites me about this, though, and,

2602
01:04:57,625 --> 01:05:01,166
I guess I guess probably one of the.

2603
01:05:02,333 --> 01:05:03,875
No, I'm not sure how

2604
01:05:03,875 --> 01:05:04,916
add how many other layers

2605
01:05:04,916 --> 01:05:06,041
we will be looking in the next

2606
01:05:06,041 --> 01:05:06,875
year, for example.

2607
01:05:06,875 --> 01:05:08,041
But what really excites me

2608
01:05:08,041 --> 01:05:09,208
about the programmability

2609
01:05:09,208 --> 01:05:09,625
is that it

2610
01:05:09,625 --> 01:05:10,541
actually could be useful

2611
01:05:10,541 --> 01:05:11,625
for Bitcoin.

2612
01:05:11,625 --> 01:05:12,541
Let me give you an example.

2613
01:05:12,541 --> 01:05:13,541
I think I highlighted it

2614
01:05:13,541 --> 01:05:15,208
even in the,

2615
01:05:15,208 --> 01:05:15,875
at the blog post

2616
01:05:15,875 --> 01:05:17,083
that where we launched

2617
01:05:17,083 --> 01:05:19,000
the lightning to reserve swaps.

2618
01:05:19,000 --> 01:05:20,041
And in the past couple of weeks,

2619
01:05:20,041 --> 01:05:21,208
this lightning

2620
01:05:21,208 --> 01:05:22,500
lightning has a couple of problems

2621
01:05:22,500 --> 01:05:25,500
with, doing more advanced things.

2622
01:05:25,500 --> 01:05:26,666
One of those, for example,

2623
01:05:26,666 --> 01:05:27,583
and I bet you

2624
01:05:27,583 --> 01:05:28,291
you can easily

2625
01:05:28,291 --> 01:05:29,583
follow the documentation here

2626
01:05:29,583 --> 01:05:31,458
is, with prism payments or payments

2627
01:05:31,458 --> 01:05:33,708
where you have to split up,

2628
01:05:33,708 --> 01:05:35,166
one payment into multiple,

2629
01:05:35,166 --> 01:05:35,833
for example,

2630
01:05:35,833 --> 01:05:37,458
when you are publishing an article

2631
01:05:37,458 --> 01:05:38,833
and there was three authors

2632
01:05:38,833 --> 01:05:39,875
that worked together

2633
01:05:39,875 --> 01:05:40,791
on this article,

2634
01:05:40,791 --> 01:05:41,791
you want to have a way

2635
01:05:41,791 --> 01:05:42,791
how you can split up

2636
01:05:42,791 --> 01:05:44,250
one lightning payment of,

2637
01:05:44,250 --> 01:05:45,500
you know, a paywall or some,

2638
01:05:45,500 --> 01:05:46,541
some reader pay

2639
01:05:46,541 --> 01:05:46,958
paying it,

2640
01:05:46,958 --> 01:05:47,875
it automatically took

2641
01:05:47,875 --> 01:05:48,750
to this through.

2642
01:05:48,750 --> 01:05:49,500
So right now

2643
01:05:49,500 --> 01:05:51,333
there is no good way to do that

2644
01:05:51,333 --> 01:05:52,958
in a non-custodial manner right now

2645
01:05:52,958 --> 01:05:54,583
usually is, you know,

2646
01:05:54,583 --> 01:05:55,875
a lender, you all accept that.

2647
01:05:55,875 --> 01:05:57,166
And then I push it out

2648
01:05:57,166 --> 01:05:58,916
by a regular annual payment

2649
01:05:58,916 --> 01:05:59,375
to these other.

2650
01:05:59,375 --> 01:06:00,333
But the nodes in the middle

2651
01:06:00,333 --> 01:06:00,833
and the node in the

2652
01:06:00,833 --> 01:06:01,500
middle as trusted.

2653
01:06:03,208 --> 01:06:05,125
A system like rootstock,

2654
01:06:05,125 --> 01:06:06,625
you could use it in order to do that

2655
01:06:06,625 --> 01:06:08,583
completely programmatically.

2656
01:06:08,583 --> 01:06:10,250
And that's non-custodial.

2657
01:06:10,250 --> 01:06:11,875
If you, instead of

2658
01:06:11,875 --> 01:06:13,208
staying on in the letting layer,

2659
01:06:13,208 --> 01:06:14,250
is okay.

2660
01:06:14,250 --> 01:06:16,041
PayPal user pays into,

2661
01:06:16,041 --> 01:06:17,083
a rootstock swap on that,

2662
01:06:17,083 --> 01:06:18,750
a rootstock swap pays out.

2663
01:06:18,750 --> 01:06:19,875
Maybe not even all that lightning.

2664
01:06:19,875 --> 01:06:20,916
Maybe some way lightning.

2665
01:06:20,916 --> 01:06:22,500
Some way, some way.

2666
01:06:22,500 --> 01:06:23,458
Via LBC.

2667
01:06:23,458 --> 01:06:24,125
But the roots,

2668
01:06:24,125 --> 01:06:25,083
the contract does its thing

2669
01:06:25,083 --> 01:06:26,708
and it's not stoppable, you know.

2670
01:06:26,708 --> 01:06:28,208
So I see potential

2671
01:06:28,208 --> 01:06:28,708
and it's just

2672
01:06:28,708 --> 01:06:30,000
the first idea that we have.

2673
01:06:30,000 --> 01:06:30,875
But I see potential

2674
01:06:30,875 --> 01:06:31,875
that this could be useful

2675
01:06:31,875 --> 01:06:33,333
for lightning itself.

2676
01:06:33,333 --> 01:06:33,666
Yeah.

2677
01:06:33,666 --> 01:06:36,666
I mean, I mostly agree, I,

2678
01:06:36,833 --> 01:06:39,666
I think that this

2679
01:06:39,666 --> 01:06:41,208
the thing is. Yeah, sure.

2680
01:06:41,208 --> 01:06:43,333
The ones

2681
01:06:43,333 --> 01:06:44,208
that people are going

2682
01:06:44,208 --> 01:06:45,333
to use their bitcoins

2683
01:06:45,333 --> 01:06:47,166
for different things.

2684
01:06:47,166 --> 01:06:48,208
Bitcoin is different things

2685
01:06:48,208 --> 01:06:49,416
to different people.

2686
01:06:49,416 --> 01:06:50,375
I would prefer

2687
01:06:50,375 --> 01:06:51,291
if no

2688
01:06:51,291 --> 01:06:53,000
human being ever used their bitcoin

2689
01:06:53,000 --> 01:06:54,625
for any illicit activity

2690
01:06:54,625 --> 01:06:56,250
or any scams whatsoever.

2691
01:06:56,250 --> 01:06:58,958
And Ethereum is a 70% pre mine

2692
01:06:58,958 --> 01:06:59,666
super scam.

2693
01:06:59,666 --> 01:07:00,875
So like I would prefer

2694
01:07:00,875 --> 01:07:02,250
if it had no association

2695
01:07:02,250 --> 01:07:03,333
to that at all.

2696
01:07:03,333 --> 01:07:04,875
But then again,

2697
01:07:04,875 --> 01:07:05,375
as Luke

2698
01:07:05,375 --> 01:07:07,000
says, as long as it's just

2699
01:07:07,000 --> 01:07:08,583
not affecting

2700
01:07:08,583 --> 01:07:10,708
not affecting Bitcoin itself,

2701
01:07:10,708 --> 01:07:12,333
then then I'm fine with it.

2702
01:07:12,333 --> 01:07:13,916
Which is why, by the way, also,

2703
01:07:13,916 --> 01:07:15,083
I, I'm not very fine

2704
01:07:15,083 --> 01:07:16,291
with the ordinals.

2705
01:07:16,291 --> 01:07:17,166
Good stuff

2706
01:07:17,166 --> 01:07:19,250
and the, the spamming

2707
01:07:19,250 --> 01:07:21,250
because it is affecting bitcoin,

2708
01:07:21,250 --> 01:07:22,791
it is pretending

2709
01:07:22,791 --> 01:07:24,958
that other things are as rare

2710
01:07:24,958 --> 01:07:26,666
as the satoshis themselves

2711
01:07:26,666 --> 01:07:27,666
and the other things

2712
01:07:27,666 --> 01:07:28,583
has has

2713
01:07:28,583 --> 01:07:29,916
no internal

2714
01:07:29,916 --> 01:07:31,958
connection to the network

2715
01:07:31,958 --> 01:07:33,208
other than like

2716
01:07:33,208 --> 01:07:34,083
they're not connected

2717
01:07:34,083 --> 01:07:35,041
to the mechanisms

2718
01:07:35,041 --> 01:07:36,208
of the incentive game

2719
01:07:36,208 --> 01:07:38,250
theoretical engine

2720
01:07:38,250 --> 01:07:40,125
that it's bitcoin.

2721
01:07:40,125 --> 01:07:41,125
Other than to,

2722
01:07:41,125 --> 01:07:42,916
to like distort the signal

2723
01:07:42,916 --> 01:07:44,333
because the Satoshi itself

2724
01:07:44,333 --> 01:07:46,166
is the signal within the network.

2725
01:07:46,166 --> 01:07:48,833
Right. So, so like my, my,

2726
01:07:49,916 --> 01:07:51,208
hope is that Bitcoin

2727
01:07:51,208 --> 01:07:53,208
keeps that it is

2728
01:07:53,208 --> 01:07:53,916
that Bitcoin's

2729
01:07:53,916 --> 01:07:55,666
users are vigilant enough

2730
01:07:55,666 --> 01:07:56,958
to, to to care

2731
01:07:56,958 --> 01:07:58,500
about keeping that intact

2732
01:07:58,500 --> 01:07:59,000
and keeping

2733
01:07:59,000 --> 01:08:01,291
that as undiluted as possible.

2734
01:08:01,291 --> 01:08:02,875
The, the absolute

2735
01:08:02,875 --> 01:08:04,375
rarity of the Satoshi,

2736
01:08:04,375 --> 01:08:05,166
how unique

2737
01:08:05,166 --> 01:08:06,958
the uniqueness of that property

2738
01:08:06,958 --> 01:08:09,291
and how it cannot be replicated.

2739
01:08:09,291 --> 01:08:10,625
Maybe, maybe my competition

2740
01:08:10,625 --> 01:08:11,500
actually works. Great.

2741
01:08:11,500 --> 01:08:14,375
So what if I told you that we,

2742
01:08:14,375 --> 01:08:15,708
create incentives

2743
01:08:15,708 --> 01:08:16,750
for people that have

2744
01:08:16,750 --> 01:08:18,375
this unbearable

2745
01:08:18,375 --> 01:08:19,166
need to create

2746
01:08:19,166 --> 01:08:20,708
these kind of systems,

2747
01:08:20,708 --> 01:08:21,791
to not do it on the maintain,

2748
01:08:21,791 --> 01:08:22,458
but do it somewhere else

2749
01:08:22,458 --> 01:08:23,708
because it's so much easier there.

2750
01:08:23,708 --> 01:08:24,541
They actually have the freedom.

2751
01:08:24,541 --> 01:08:25,958
You might even be supported,

2752
01:08:25,958 --> 01:08:26,250
you know,

2753
01:08:26,250 --> 01:08:27,500
you might even have wallet support.

2754
01:08:27,500 --> 01:08:27,833
Yes.

2755
01:08:27,833 --> 01:08:28,083
You know,

2756
01:08:28,083 --> 01:08:29,458
you don't have to do these crazy

2757
01:08:29,458 --> 01:08:30,750
hacks in order to make it happen.

2758
01:08:30,750 --> 01:08:32,125
So if we create incentives

2759
01:08:32,125 --> 01:08:33,375
to for people to actually move

2760
01:08:33,375 --> 01:08:34,375
to other layers to do that

2761
01:08:36,250 --> 01:08:37,833
better.

2762
01:08:37,833 --> 01:08:39,333
Yeah, I'd prefer they

2763
01:08:39,333 --> 01:08:40,625
were completely separated

2764
01:08:40,625 --> 01:08:41,375
from the whole thing

2765
01:08:41,375 --> 01:08:42,500
because I don't believe that

2766
01:08:42,500 --> 01:08:43,291
there's such a thing

2767
01:08:43,291 --> 01:08:44,833
as a digital token at all.

2768
01:08:44,833 --> 01:08:45,666
Like I don't believe

2769
01:08:45,666 --> 01:08:46,833
in intellectual property

2770
01:08:46,833 --> 01:08:47,416
to begin with.

2771
01:08:47,416 --> 01:08:48,208
So like,

2772
01:08:48,208 --> 01:08:49,416
I prefer if they stay

2773
01:08:49,416 --> 01:08:49,916
as far away

2774
01:08:49,916 --> 01:08:51,375
from Bitcoin as possible.

2775
01:08:51,375 --> 01:08:52,791
But if this is the only way,

2776
01:08:52,791 --> 01:08:53,916
they're,

2777
01:08:53,916 --> 01:08:55,666
Yeah, then okay, I'm fine with it.

2778
01:08:55,666 --> 01:08:57,625
This, delicate questions

2779
01:08:57,625 --> 01:08:58,875
and maybe I'm putting

2780
01:08:58,875 --> 01:08:59,708
too much energy

2781
01:08:59,708 --> 01:09:01,541
into thinking about these things.

2782
01:09:01,541 --> 01:09:02,291
The problem is,

2783
01:09:02,291 --> 01:09:03,541
as always,

2784
01:09:03,541 --> 01:09:05,375
there other people think differently

2785
01:09:05,375 --> 01:09:06,250
than you.

2786
01:09:06,250 --> 01:09:06,541
Yeah.

2787
01:09:06,541 --> 01:09:09,541
Period.

2788
01:09:09,583 --> 01:09:10,958
Yes, that is the problem.

2789
01:09:10,958 --> 01:09:13,375
You're right.

2790
01:09:13,375 --> 01:09:14,208
Killian, this is having

2791
01:09:14,208 --> 01:09:16,000
a really great, conversation.

2792
01:09:16,000 --> 01:09:16,541
Is there

2793
01:09:16,541 --> 01:09:18,375
is there anything else that you that

2794
01:09:18,375 --> 01:09:19,083
we haven't

2795
01:09:19,083 --> 01:09:20,208
had a chance to touch on that

2796
01:09:20,208 --> 01:09:22,458
you wanted to bring up? Oh,

2797
01:09:24,208 --> 01:09:25,208
I don't know.

2798
01:09:25,208 --> 01:09:28,208
Maybe in relation of some technical.

2799
01:09:28,833 --> 01:09:30,875
That's not really an anecdote, but,

2800
01:09:30,875 --> 01:09:32,125
you know, some even

2801
01:09:32,125 --> 01:09:34,291
question taproot.

2802
01:09:34,291 --> 01:09:34,500
Yeah.

2803
01:09:34,500 --> 01:09:34,875
It's like,

2804
01:09:34,875 --> 01:09:36,458
has it been the right thing to do?

2805
01:09:36,458 --> 01:09:38,041
Was that really so smart, after all?

2806
01:09:38,041 --> 01:09:41,041
And why why did we not catch the,

2807
01:09:41,041 --> 01:09:42,250
you know, the things that had

2808
01:09:42,250 --> 01:09:43,375
that enabled?

2809
01:09:43,375 --> 01:09:44,875
And I just want to give

2810
01:09:44,875 --> 01:09:46,333
another perspective on that.

2811
01:09:46,333 --> 01:09:48,958
So for us, taproot

2812
01:09:48,958 --> 01:09:50,416
has changed things

2813
01:09:50,416 --> 01:09:52,708
significantly in a positive way.

2814
01:09:52,708 --> 01:09:55,125
And let me tell you how. So

2815
01:09:55,125 --> 01:09:58,083
especially for wallets like Iowa,

2816
01:09:58,083 --> 01:09:59,333
we had one property

2817
01:09:59,333 --> 01:10:00,416
that was basically a

2818
01:10:00,416 --> 01:10:01,500
no go,

2819
01:10:01,500 --> 01:10:03,875
for for, for these integrations and

2820
01:10:03,875 --> 01:10:06,875
that was that you had to wait,

2821
01:10:07,083 --> 01:10:09,083
for refunds to arrive in your wallet

2822
01:10:09,083 --> 01:10:10,791
when a let new payment failed.

2823
01:10:10,791 --> 01:10:11,666
As we all know,

2824
01:10:11,666 --> 01:10:14,291
lightning is never 100% reliable,

2825
01:10:14,291 --> 01:10:15,333
no matter how hard you try.

2826
01:10:15,333 --> 01:10:16,583
And payments can fail.

2827
01:10:16,583 --> 01:10:18,125
So when we had an outgoing payment

2828
01:10:18,125 --> 01:10:19,083
so people were swapping

2829
01:10:19,083 --> 01:10:19,583
from the chain

2830
01:10:19,583 --> 01:10:20,583
or from liquid to lightning

2831
01:10:20,583 --> 01:10:21,333
and it failed,

2832
01:10:21,333 --> 01:10:22,500
they had to wait

2833
01:10:22,500 --> 01:10:24,666
between 2 and 4 days

2834
01:10:24,666 --> 01:10:25,625
to get their money back.

2835
01:10:25,625 --> 01:10:27,666
So on top of a failed payment,

2836
01:10:27,666 --> 01:10:28,416
they had to wait.

2837
01:10:28,416 --> 01:10:30,125
And you can imagine what the cost,

2838
01:10:30,125 --> 01:10:32,166
the frustration and the like.

2839
01:10:32,166 --> 01:10:34,333
Even getting this communicated,

2840
01:10:34,333 --> 01:10:35,166
which is my job,

2841
01:10:36,250 --> 01:10:37,625
was was really, really hard.

2842
01:10:37,625 --> 01:10:38,666
So with taproot

2843
01:10:38,666 --> 01:10:41,458
and, you know, all the,

2844
01:10:41,458 --> 01:10:44,125
key path spend, cooperative signing

2845
01:10:44,125 --> 01:10:45,958
magic, that that enabled

2846
01:10:45,958 --> 01:10:46,958
so we actually could do away

2847
01:10:46,958 --> 01:10:47,375
with that.

2848
01:10:47,375 --> 01:10:49,958
And, we can now, in simple terms,

2849
01:10:49,958 --> 01:10:52,791
give back refunds immediately

2850
01:10:52,791 --> 01:10:54,333
if the user or the users

2851
01:10:54,333 --> 01:10:56,416
client like an Aqua wallet and

2852
01:10:56,416 --> 01:10:58,916
agreed to cosign this refund,

2853
01:10:58,916 --> 01:10:59,708
transaction.

2854
01:10:59,708 --> 01:11:01,208
And that's what we do now.

2855
01:11:01,208 --> 01:11:03,625
And, the fact was was massive

2856
01:11:03,625 --> 01:11:04,541
for us, basically

2857
01:11:04,541 --> 01:11:06,458
a drop of support cases

2858
01:11:06,458 --> 01:11:08,708
of like 90, 95%.

2859
01:11:08,708 --> 01:11:10,083
And, actually,

2860
01:11:10,083 --> 01:11:10,625
a wallet,

2861
01:11:10,625 --> 01:11:11,583
like I'm not doing all that

2862
01:11:11,583 --> 01:11:12,416
automatically under

2863
01:11:12,416 --> 01:11:13,916
the hood is basically dot,

2864
01:11:13,916 --> 01:11:15,458
dot dot a scan of code.

2865
01:11:15,458 --> 01:11:16,875
Oh, payment failed because,

2866
01:11:16,875 --> 01:11:17,125
you know,

2867
01:11:17,125 --> 01:11:18,208
this node is not reachable,

2868
01:11:18,208 --> 01:11:19,583
is offline or,

2869
01:11:19,583 --> 01:11:19,916
I don't know,

2870
01:11:19,916 --> 01:11:20,625
it doesn't have enough

2871
01:11:20,625 --> 01:11:21,541
enough inbound.

2872
01:11:21,541 --> 01:11:22,791
A press the back button at

2873
01:11:22,791 --> 01:11:23,208
my refund

2874
01:11:23,208 --> 01:11:24,875
is already back in my wallet.

2875
01:11:24,875 --> 01:11:26,833
So that the taproot really, really

2876
01:11:27,791 --> 01:11:28,833
only enabled

2877
01:11:28,833 --> 01:11:29,250
us to

2878
01:11:29,250 --> 01:11:31,166
build these kind of kind of things

2879
01:11:31,166 --> 01:11:31,666
that otherwise

2880
01:11:31,666 --> 01:11:32,375
would not be possible.

2881
01:11:32,375 --> 01:11:34,000
So I just wanted to

2882
01:11:34,000 --> 01:11:34,833
throw that out there.

2883
01:11:34,833 --> 01:11:35,791
That taproot, yes,

2884
01:11:35,791 --> 01:11:36,583
is being used, yet

2885
01:11:36,583 --> 01:11:37,625
it's being

2886
01:11:37,625 --> 01:11:39,500
used for very specific,

2887
01:11:39,500 --> 01:11:41,333
sometimes called niche use cases.

2888
01:11:41,333 --> 01:11:42,958
But in these new niche

2889
01:11:42,958 --> 01:11:44,041
use cases, taproot

2890
01:11:44,041 --> 01:11:44,875
really, really shines.

2891
01:11:44,875 --> 01:11:47,875
So yeah, that's my take on that.

2892
01:11:48,208 --> 01:11:49,375
No, I love that

2893
01:11:49,375 --> 01:11:51,125
Bitcoin can still improve.

2894
01:11:51,125 --> 01:11:53,250
Like and if we

2895
01:11:53,250 --> 01:11:55,208
if there's overwhelming consensus

2896
01:11:55,208 --> 01:11:56,208
what it really needs it.

2897
01:11:56,208 --> 01:11:58,083
Like if you flip that around

2898
01:11:58,083 --> 01:11:58,750
that it

2899
01:11:58,750 --> 01:12:00,125
sort of means that Bitcoin

2900
01:12:00,125 --> 01:12:01,791
can only change for the better

2901
01:12:01,791 --> 01:12:03,333
because we're all defined.

2902
01:12:03,333 --> 01:12:04,208
We all.

2903
01:12:04,208 --> 01:12:05,541
If we all agree, then

2904
01:12:05,541 --> 01:12:06,291
that's sort of what

2905
01:12:06,291 --> 01:12:07,625
we define better.

2906
01:12:07,625 --> 01:12:09,875
As. You know,

2907
01:12:09,875 --> 01:12:11,125
if it happened in Bitcoin,

2908
01:12:11,125 --> 01:12:13,375
it was like the likelihood

2909
01:12:13,375 --> 01:12:13,833
that it was

2910
01:12:13,833 --> 01:12:15,333
for the better of

2911
01:12:15,333 --> 01:12:18,000
betterment, betterment of mankind.

2912
01:12:18,000 --> 01:12:19,833
The are very, very high.

2913
01:12:19,833 --> 01:12:20,791
The odds are very high

2914
01:12:20,791 --> 01:12:22,416
because everyone in Bitcoin agreed

2915
01:12:22,416 --> 01:12:22,916
otherwise

2916
01:12:22,916 --> 01:12:24,333
the thing wouldn't have happened.

2917
01:12:24,333 --> 01:12:27,000
So that's the other way to see that.

2918
01:12:27,000 --> 01:12:28,000
The yeah,

2919
01:12:28,000 --> 01:12:28,875
we could go into

2920
01:12:28,875 --> 01:12:30,000
the whole ossification of

2921
01:12:30,000 --> 01:12:31,875
debate too, but that doesn't.

2922
01:12:31,875 --> 01:12:32,250
And yeah,

2923
01:12:32,250 --> 01:12:34,125
yeah, yeah that's for another

2924
01:12:34,125 --> 01:12:36,208
that's for another, conversation.

2925
01:12:37,416 --> 01:12:38,916
But it's good to hear good

2926
01:12:38,916 --> 01:12:40,416
to hear that taproot is working

2927
01:12:40,416 --> 01:12:43,416
and, that it's, doing some good.

2928
01:12:44,291 --> 01:12:47,291
It is.

2929
01:12:47,375 --> 01:12:48,250
Awesome. Yeah.

2930
01:12:48,250 --> 01:12:49,375
Killian. That.

2931
01:12:49,375 --> 01:12:49,916
Thanks again.

2932
01:12:49,916 --> 01:12:50,458
And as I said,

2933
01:12:50,458 --> 01:12:53,166
this has been a great conversation.

2934
01:12:53,166 --> 01:12:55,708
I think we're sort of at a natural,

2935
01:12:55,708 --> 01:12:56,250
endpoint.

2936
01:12:56,250 --> 01:12:56,458
We've heard

2937
01:12:56,458 --> 01:12:58,000
a lot of great stuff about,

2938
01:12:58,000 --> 01:12:59,416
bolts and,

2939
01:12:59,416 --> 01:13:01,291
everything you're up to is

2940
01:13:01,291 --> 01:13:02,875
is there anything you have,

2941
01:13:02,875 --> 01:13:04,208
immediately on the the

2942
01:13:04,208 --> 01:13:06,000
the time horizon that,

2943
01:13:06,000 --> 01:13:07,083
we should know about or any

2944
01:13:07,083 --> 01:13:07,416
where you want

2945
01:13:07,416 --> 01:13:10,416
to direct our listeners to?

2946
01:13:11,333 --> 01:13:13,583
I would encourage your listeners,

2947
01:13:13,583 --> 01:13:15,000
especially the more technical ones,

2948
01:13:15,000 --> 01:13:16,291
to reach to arc,

2949
01:13:16,291 --> 01:13:16,625
you know,

2950
01:13:16,625 --> 01:13:19,291
build up an opinion on that.

2951
01:13:19,291 --> 01:13:21,875
I think Arc is very, very

2952
01:13:21,875 --> 01:13:23,916
interesting for, for Bitcoin

2953
01:13:23,916 --> 01:13:26,041
as a whole, for Bitcoin scaling,

2954
01:13:26,041 --> 01:13:27,458
as a whole.

2955
01:13:27,458 --> 01:13:29,416
I'm on a personal, not a crusade,

2956
01:13:29,416 --> 01:13:31,083
but on a personal mission

2957
01:13:31,083 --> 01:13:32,958
to not let happen to arc.

2958
01:13:32,958 --> 01:13:34,375
What happened to lightning

2959
01:13:34,375 --> 01:13:36,541
specifically that being oversold

2960
01:13:36,541 --> 01:13:38,250
as a solution to everything.

2961
01:13:38,250 --> 01:13:39,000
So I think it's

2962
01:13:39,000 --> 01:13:40,416
it would be very important

2963
01:13:40,416 --> 01:13:41,458
and maybe there's

2964
01:13:41,458 --> 01:13:43,083
some more work needed,

2965
01:13:44,208 --> 01:13:44,666
from people

2966
01:13:44,666 --> 01:13:47,666
like you and, you know, to, to,

2967
01:13:47,666 --> 01:13:49,458
to educate on, on in

2968
01:13:49,458 --> 01:13:52,041
simple terms, what, what Argus.

2969
01:13:52,041 --> 01:13:53,416
The next couple of months

2970
01:13:53,416 --> 01:13:54,333
so that people can form

2971
01:13:54,333 --> 01:13:55,333
a concrete opinion.

2972
01:13:55,333 --> 01:13:57,916
What I think about arc,

2973
01:13:57,916 --> 01:13:58,291
that's based.

2974
01:13:58,291 --> 01:14:00,666
Yeah, that's that's on the message.

2975
01:14:00,666 --> 01:14:03,458
Maybe I want to get out.

2976
01:14:03,458 --> 01:14:04,916
Good.

2977
01:14:04,916 --> 01:14:05,375
All right.

2978
01:14:05,375 --> 01:14:06,458
And, anywhere

2979
01:14:06,458 --> 01:14:08,333
you want to send our listeners,

2980
01:14:08,333 --> 01:14:09,625
except for what?

2981
01:14:09,625 --> 01:14:10,083
What was it?

2982
01:14:10,083 --> 01:14:12,750
Bolts dot some. Exchange.

2983
01:14:12,750 --> 01:14:13,833
Both for exchange.

2984
01:14:13,833 --> 01:14:14,041
Yeah.

2985
01:14:14,041 --> 01:14:15,750
Sponsored exchanges to my website.

2986
01:14:15,750 --> 01:14:20,291
You have our we, our is linked.

2987
01:14:20,666 --> 01:14:22,083
Our blog,

2988
01:14:22,083 --> 01:14:23,208
usually contains

2989
01:14:23,208 --> 01:14:24,125
all the features

2990
01:14:24,125 --> 01:14:25,208
that we launched in the past.

2991
01:14:25,208 --> 01:14:25,833
So if you want to,

2992
01:14:25,833 --> 01:14:26,916
you know, read a little bit

2993
01:14:26,916 --> 01:14:27,833
through about,

2994
01:14:27,833 --> 01:14:29,791
last year what we launched at pulse.

2995
01:14:29,791 --> 01:14:32,166
Some technical explainers.

2996
01:14:32,166 --> 01:14:33,166
But also like some,

2997
01:14:33,166 --> 01:14:34,791
you know, the vision a little bit.

2998
01:14:36,125 --> 01:14:37,708
We also have, I think,

2999
01:14:37,708 --> 01:14:38,458
the YouTube

3000
01:14:38,458 --> 01:14:40,583
playlist collection of, of,

3001
01:14:40,583 --> 01:14:41,958
you know, podcasts.

3002
01:14:41,958 --> 01:14:42,916
So probably this podcast

3003
01:14:42,916 --> 01:14:44,958
will end there as well. Linked.

3004
01:14:44,958 --> 01:14:47,375
But yeah. Cool.

3005
01:14:47,375 --> 01:14:47,708
Yeah.

3006
01:14:47,708 --> 01:14:48,666
I have an errand

3007
01:14:48,666 --> 01:14:51,000
to Madrid here in the, like,

3008
01:14:51,000 --> 01:14:52,500
somewhere within the time

3009
01:14:52,500 --> 01:14:54,708
span of two months from from now.

3010
01:14:54,708 --> 01:14:55,666
So I'll,

3011
01:14:55,666 --> 01:14:56,375
I'll ping you

3012
01:14:56,375 --> 01:14:57,875
when I know when I'm coming,

3013
01:14:57,875 --> 01:14:59,083
and we'll go grab a beer or.

3014
01:14:59,083 --> 01:14:59,458
Something,

3015
01:14:59,458 --> 01:15:01,416
make sure it's a Tuesday,

3016
01:15:01,416 --> 01:15:02,458
and then you catch our bit

3017
01:15:02,458 --> 01:15:03,750
confused and meet up.

3018
01:15:03,750 --> 01:15:04,500
Fantastic.

3019
01:15:04,500 --> 01:15:07,250
I'll make sure it's a Tuesday.

3020
01:15:07,250 --> 01:15:08,208
Kelly. Right.

3021
01:15:08,208 --> 01:15:09,166
Thank you very much

3022
01:15:09,166 --> 01:15:10,291
for coming on the Bitcoin

3023
01:15:10,291 --> 01:15:13,291
Infinity Show. The,

3024
01:15:13,333 --> 01:15:14,041
all the best.

3025
01:15:14,041 --> 01:15:15,458
Good luck with everything.

3026
01:15:15,458 --> 01:15:17,250
Thanks for having me, Luke.

3027
01:15:17,250 --> 01:15:18,625
Yeah, thanks a lot Killian.

3028
01:15:18,625 --> 01:15:20,250
It's been the Bitcoin infinity show.

3029
01:15:20,250 --> 01:15:21,208
Thank you for listening.