Swapping Bitcoin, Lightning, and More with Kilian Rausch from Boltz


Kilian Rausch is the founder and CEO of Boltz, a non-custodial Bitcoin bridge, allowing swaps between Bitcoin and layer 2 technologies such as Lightning, Liquid, and more to come. We discuss the history of Boltz, the current state of the Lightning network, the future of layer 2 technologies on Bitcoin, and much more!
Connect with Kilian:
https://x.com/kilrau
https://x.com/boltzhq
https://boltz.exchange/
Connect with Us:
https://www.bitcoininfinityshow.com/
https://bitcoininfinitystore.com
https://primal.net/freedom
https://primal.net/knut
https://primal.net/luke
https://twitter.com/BtcInfinityShow
https://twitter.com/knutsvanholm
https://twitter.com/lukedewolf
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The Bitcoin Infinity Show is a Bitcoin podcast hosted by Knut Svanholm and Luke de Wolf.
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In each episode, we explore everything from deep philosophy to practical tools to emit freedom dioxide to expand your freedom footprint!
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I'm on a
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personal mission to
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not let happen to ark
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what happened to lightning
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specifically that is being oversold
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as a solution to everything.
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The times
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where you can just open a channel
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and it will be open forever,
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and you have one Bitcoin of inbound
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liquidity for free forever.
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These times are slowly
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but surely coming to an end.
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And lightning has turned into this
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almost intermediate layer
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that really there's
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applications on top of it
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that use lightning as the mechanism
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of facilitating transactions.
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If you make an on chain transaction,
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that's going to be
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a rare thing in the future,
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and maybe it's
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not even that far from now.
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We had to shut down
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both services for,
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I think,
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four days in a row,
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because all our working
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capital of the capital
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that we used for
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was locked up in the mempool.
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So get out of money, guys.
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Everything that is somewhat
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critical has to be open
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source software.
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We sometimes use the servers,
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we pay for it,
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but we want to be able
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to run it ourselves
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because we don't know
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what will happen to the service.
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Open sourcing everything
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and just selling the service
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is the obvious ethical way
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to go about things,
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and it's also the way
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to get the market signal
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if you're doing the
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right thing or not.
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Kelly and welcome to
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the Bitcoin Infinity Show.
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Thank you for joining us.
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Thank you for having me
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I'm excited to be here.
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Yes.
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Good to finally have you on Killian.
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I mean,
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I went up to Madrid to visit
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you and a bunch of other Bitcoiners,
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like, two years ago
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now or something.
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Yeah, something like that.
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It's like time flies.
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How are things in Madrid?
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Good.
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So, actually, since you visited,
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I think we were at the stage
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where we're building up
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the local Bitcoin meetup.
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So two steps back.
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I arrived in Madrid around 2019
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and it was pretty much
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nothing regarding Bitcoin.
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No meetup, no no people, you know.
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And I was like, damn that
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that can be the case
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for such a big city
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to to not have a
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regular bitcoin meetup,
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let alone even a meetup.
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So,
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I started it together with a friend
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and you have been one of our,
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our first, guests to speak.
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And, so the concept we
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always have is like, we're offline
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an expert or a, and the person
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that is dedicating his or her life
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to a specific thing in Bitcoin
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that giving a talk about it
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and then afterwards, you know,
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casual beers and meetup.
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And I think we did that with us.
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All right.
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So since then
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it's it's been growing
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and it's been going, going great.
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So we have a core of
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let's say 40 people
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now that show up every single time
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we do a meta.
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We do it twice a month. Now.
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So things like good in Madrid,
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it's finally Bitcoin is moving.
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Good to here.
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So you either have an
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expert or someone like me.
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Your interpretation.
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Well anyway, that's good to hear.
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Well,
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since this is your first time
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on, I think,
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a little introduction is due to Mur
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and for our listeners.
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So don't know who you are,
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which I think is,
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a handful of them, at least.
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So can you give us the Tldr
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on, Kilian
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and what were your origin story,
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how you found Bitcoin
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and what you do now and all of that?
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Sure.
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Okay, so I'm Kilian, I'm with Boltz
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and I discovered Bitcoin
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back in 2015,
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early 16 back in China.
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So my my story is maybe a little bit
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different than a lot of other
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than the story of a lot of others
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because I got into Bitcoin
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by starting to work in Bitcoin
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without having a clue
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what it is or how it works.
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So, what happened in in
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the end was, I,
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I was working at the large
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German automotive company
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in China and, decided that
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this big corp thing is not for me.
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Switched to a smaller
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Chinese supplier,
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which decided to go bankrupt
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within three months.
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And then I was basically
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in the streets of Shanghai back
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then and was like, okay, well,
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what I'm going to
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what I'm going to do
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and, ended up going to a big fund
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meet up back in Shanghai.
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And that's where I met stepson
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and stepson Sam
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ho convinced me
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that my to come into office,
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the next day,
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he was working at PTC
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China back then, and
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a week later,
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I was working for them.
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So, that's
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basically how it happened.
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I studied at PTC China.
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Pretty early on.
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I've been with the mining pool.
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So taking care,
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you know, of the mining pool system,
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the interface, the website.
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Also actually,
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flew to Sichuan to visit
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a couple of mining firms
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that did a Docker, documentation
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with, TechCrunch actually
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find the link somewhere.
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So we're filming,
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like the mining scene in China
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was pretty wild
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and interesting times.
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And over the course of 2016,
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I started working on
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a mobile wallet.
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So I've been pretty focused on
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on wallets until then.
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I think it was sometime late 2017
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where I switched,
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switch companies to work
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on, starting to work on atomic swaps
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on a project
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that tried
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to build a Dex based on lightning.
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So remember, this was early 2018.
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So pretty ambitious
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to say, to say the least.
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Surprise that failed.
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But the good outcome
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of of that story
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is that we started bolts
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as a sidekick,
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of that
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lightning Dex, by the way,
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it was called Open Dex.
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The website might actually
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still be around somewhere.
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So bolts was a
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little bit of a
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of a band aid of a,
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of a little thing that we did
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on the site in order
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to help open Dex to manage,
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lightning liquidity.
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Then it turned out
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that this band aid,
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this little hobby
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that we had on the site,
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turned out to be quite the thing.
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So, in 2023
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is actually only last year.
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Michael Call, my co-founders,
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and I, we got together,
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and it's like, okay, guys,
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what are we doing with our lives?
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We looked at bolts.
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It's, was there running?
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We maintained it.
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We just basically maintained it all
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these years to be up and running.
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But it had organic growth.
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Even though we didn't launch
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any new features,
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it was really in pure
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maintenance mode.
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And, we,
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we felt that it deserved more.
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So, that's where we
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then decided
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to start going full time
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and see how far we can get.
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And wanted to have you years later.
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I would say we we're in a
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pretty decent position
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where bolts is, is doing well
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and we saw a lot of integrations.
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We launched a couple of new swaps.
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If you talk more about it
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later, I guess.
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But yeah, that's basically my story,
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I guess. Yeah, yeah.
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We're going to deep dive into what
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what bolts is, a little later on.
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But like,
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I'd like to call back to this,
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you say you, you started working for
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beta sec in 2015.
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Early 2016,
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I think it was February 2016.
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Yes, yes.
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And I think, well,
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most people don't know about this
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era in Bitcoin is that,
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China was super, super dominant,
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like it was almost,
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a Chinese project, like, they were.
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Yes, very much
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dominated by China,
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especially mining,
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but also other things. And I think,
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it BTCc
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was one of the only Chinese, mining.
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It's an ex mining or exchanges.
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Right.
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An exchange
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that also had a mining pool.
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Also had a mining pool.
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Exactly. Yes.
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That that actually could bridge
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that gap that had the
278
00:07:08,291 --> 00:07:08,791
that didn't
279
00:07:08,791 --> 00:07:09,875
have the language barrier
280
00:07:09,875 --> 00:07:10,750
because you had some
281
00:07:10,750 --> 00:07:12,708
English speakers, including you.
282
00:07:12,708 --> 00:07:14,083
Yes. Yours truly.
283
00:07:14,083 --> 00:07:15,250
Samson. Right.
284
00:07:15,250 --> 00:07:15,833
Yes.
285
00:07:15,833 --> 00:07:18,000
Well, Samson, Bobby, the CEO,
286
00:07:18,000 --> 00:07:19,541
I mean, he's he's American as well.
287
00:07:19,541 --> 00:07:20,833
So it was really this hybrid
288
00:07:20,833 --> 00:07:23,125
that made BTC or BTC China,
289
00:07:23,125 --> 00:07:24,500
special back then. Yes. Yeah.
290
00:07:24,500 --> 00:07:25,958
And were you a part
291
00:07:25,958 --> 00:07:27,875
of of all of these,
292
00:07:27,875 --> 00:07:29,583
meetings like during the Blocksize
293
00:07:29,583 --> 00:07:30,375
force and everything?
294
00:07:30,375 --> 00:07:31,208
There's,
295
00:07:31,208 --> 00:07:32,416
secretive meetings
296
00:07:32,416 --> 00:07:33,833
between minus and,
297
00:07:33,833 --> 00:07:35,125
Oh, no, these ones. No.
298
00:07:35,125 --> 00:07:35,833
So I've been part
299
00:07:35,833 --> 00:07:37,375
of the meetings within BTC.
300
00:07:37,375 --> 00:07:38,625
See that we're discussing.
301
00:07:38,625 --> 00:07:40,500
Oh, I, I mean, it was
302
00:07:40,500 --> 00:07:42,208
it was wild times back then.
303
00:07:42,208 --> 00:07:43,708
I remember
304
00:07:43,708 --> 00:07:45,666
meeting of BTC management
305
00:07:45,666 --> 00:07:47,166
sitting down
306
00:07:47,166 --> 00:07:50,208
and, Jeff Garcia just released,
307
00:07:51,458 --> 00:07:52,166
his version of,
308
00:07:52,166 --> 00:07:52,458
you know,
309
00:07:52,458 --> 00:07:53,458
SegWit to X,
310
00:07:53,458 --> 00:07:55,583
and there was a series to speed,
311
00:07:55,583 --> 00:07:57,750
the pay debate of
312
00:07:57,750 --> 00:07:58,500
is this Bitcoin?
313
00:07:58,500 --> 00:07:59,250
Are we running this?
314
00:07:59,250 --> 00:08:01,625
Is this the thing that we decide
315
00:08:01,625 --> 00:08:03,250
to be to be bitcoin or not?
316
00:08:03,250 --> 00:08:05,625
And it was highly confusing.
317
00:08:05,625 --> 00:08:06,541
And back then,
318
00:08:06,541 --> 00:08:07,375
I mean, in hindsight,
319
00:08:07,375 --> 00:08:08,583
everything looks so clear
320
00:08:08,583 --> 00:08:09,041
and you know
321
00:08:09,041 --> 00:08:11,833
and so I don't know evident.
322
00:08:11,833 --> 00:08:13,625
But back then it wasn't I,
323
00:08:13,625 --> 00:08:15,458
I was new to Bitcoin.
324
00:08:15,458 --> 00:08:16,833
But even people
325
00:08:16,833 --> 00:08:17,958
that have been in the game for,
326
00:08:17,958 --> 00:08:19,166
for many, many years,
327
00:08:19,166 --> 00:08:20,708
like Samson and Bobby,
328
00:08:20,708 --> 00:08:21,916
they were seriously confused
329
00:08:21,916 --> 00:08:23,666
of what to do, what to do with it.
330
00:08:23,666 --> 00:08:26,958
So high uncertainty if Bitcoin
331
00:08:26,958 --> 00:08:28,750
even survives this,
332
00:08:28,750 --> 00:08:31,708
to say to say the least. Right? So,
333
00:08:31,708 --> 00:08:33,583
I have not been part of any secret
334
00:08:33,583 --> 00:08:34,916
New York agreements,
335
00:08:34,916 --> 00:08:35,708
stuff like that.
336
00:08:35,708 --> 00:08:36,708
I've not been there
337
00:08:36,708 --> 00:08:38,333
and I'm gladly so.
338
00:08:38,333 --> 00:08:39,625
But within BTC,
339
00:08:39,625 --> 00:08:41,041
if I'm an exchange perspective,
340
00:08:41,041 --> 00:08:43,250
it was an incredibly confusing
341
00:08:43,250 --> 00:08:44,500
and frightening time
342
00:08:44,500 --> 00:08:46,208
because, you
343
00:08:46,208 --> 00:08:47,916
you clearly didn't
344
00:08:47,916 --> 00:08:48,750
know what to choose.
345
00:08:48,750 --> 00:08:50,416
Yeah, I'm so curious.
346
00:08:50,416 --> 00:08:52,041
Because you say that you started
347
00:08:52,041 --> 00:08:53,250
working for a Bitcoin company
348
00:08:53,250 --> 00:08:55,000
without knowing what Bitcoin was,
349
00:08:55,000 --> 00:08:56,583
and I think you're you're
350
00:08:56,583 --> 00:08:57,666
you're not alone.
351
00:08:59,000 --> 00:08:59,291
Yes.
352
00:08:59,291 --> 00:09:00,375
For people that started
353
00:09:00,375 --> 00:09:02,125
working Bitcoin back then.
354
00:09:02,125 --> 00:09:03,833
And to be honest
355
00:09:03,833 --> 00:09:05,833
I don't think anyone really know was
356
00:09:05,833 --> 00:09:08,958
knew what bitcoin was back then
357
00:09:08,958 --> 00:09:10,625
or that you
358
00:09:10,625 --> 00:09:12,125
could make the argument that
359
00:09:12,125 --> 00:09:13,708
still no one knows what it is.
360
00:09:13,708 --> 00:09:14,291
Exactly.
361
00:09:14,291 --> 00:09:14,916
Like we're
362
00:09:14,916 --> 00:09:16,208
we're still trying to figure out
363
00:09:16,208 --> 00:09:17,833
what this thing is,
364
00:09:17,833 --> 00:09:19,000
but in hindsight, it's
365
00:09:19,000 --> 00:09:20,666
this David and Goliath story
366
00:09:20,666 --> 00:09:22,833
with, like,
367
00:09:22,833 --> 00:09:24,500
this thing of a.
368
00:09:24,500 --> 00:09:24,791
Yeah.
369
00:09:24,791 --> 00:09:25,875
For those that don't know,
370
00:09:25,875 --> 00:09:27,333
the Blocksize wars
371
00:09:27,333 --> 00:09:29,833
were on the surface about
372
00:09:29,833 --> 00:09:30,958
should we increase
373
00:09:30,958 --> 00:09:32,291
the block size or not?
374
00:09:32,291 --> 00:09:33,416
But they were really about
375
00:09:33,416 --> 00:09:35,083
control of the network.
376
00:09:35,083 --> 00:09:36,291
And who was in charge
377
00:09:36,291 --> 00:09:39,208
of the network? And,
378
00:09:39,208 --> 00:09:42,125
it wasn't sort of,
379
00:09:42,125 --> 00:09:44,666
common knowledge at the time that
380
00:09:44,666 --> 00:09:45,791
that the users
381
00:09:45,791 --> 00:09:47,083
were really the masters
382
00:09:47,083 --> 00:09:47,958
of the miners
383
00:09:47,958 --> 00:09:49,500
and not the other way around.
384
00:09:49,500 --> 00:09:50,583
So I think a lot of the,
385
00:09:50,583 --> 00:09:51,500
a lot of the people
386
00:09:51,500 --> 00:09:52,833
at the mining companies
387
00:09:52,833 --> 00:09:55,125
thought that they had more power
388
00:09:55,125 --> 00:09:56,166
than they actually did
389
00:09:56,166 --> 00:09:57,958
over the network, which is.
390
00:09:57,958 --> 00:09:58,708
Just to.
391
00:09:58,708 --> 00:09:59,291
An extent,
392
00:09:59,291 --> 00:10:00,875
just to like all the big companies
393
00:10:00,875 --> 00:10:01,208
like the
394
00:10:01,208 --> 00:10:02,375
this New York agreement
395
00:10:02,375 --> 00:10:02,833
that everything
396
00:10:02,833 --> 00:10:04,666
like almost every big company
397
00:10:04,666 --> 00:10:06,791
assigned it, BitPay signed it, and,
398
00:10:09,083 --> 00:10:10,250
Jihan signed it and
399
00:10:10,250 --> 00:10:13,250
everyone signed it.
400
00:10:13,416 --> 00:10:14,583
But it didn't go through
401
00:10:14,583 --> 00:10:16,791
because the users didn't want it.
402
00:10:16,791 --> 00:10:18,041
And the markets
403
00:10:18,041 --> 00:10:19,666
clearly showed that, like,
404
00:10:19,666 --> 00:10:20,625
we don't want this thing.
405
00:10:20,625 --> 00:10:22,166
We want Bitcoin to be decentralized.
406
00:10:22,166 --> 00:10:23,708
Otherwise it doesn't work.
407
00:10:23,708 --> 00:10:25,333
And increasing the log size,
408
00:10:25,333 --> 00:10:26,166
of course, would have set
409
00:10:26,166 --> 00:10:27,791
the precedent for doing so again,
410
00:10:27,791 --> 00:10:30,500
which would have rapidly destroyed
411
00:10:30,500 --> 00:10:31,875
that decentralization
412
00:10:31,875 --> 00:10:33,458
and put the put Bitcoin
413
00:10:33,458 --> 00:10:36,041
in the hands of a few,
414
00:10:36,041 --> 00:10:37,125
powerful players.
415
00:10:37,125 --> 00:10:39,166
So luckily that I mean, to me,
416
00:10:39,166 --> 00:10:40,333
I'm telling this story
417
00:10:40,333 --> 00:10:41,166
because to me, though,
418
00:10:41,166 --> 00:10:44,166
this is the the pivotal event in my,
419
00:10:45,208 --> 00:10:46,750
like how I discovered Bitcoin
420
00:10:46,750 --> 00:10:47,666
because it wasn't
421
00:10:47,666 --> 00:10:49,791
until this unfolded the way it did
422
00:10:49,791 --> 00:10:51,500
that I was convinced that
423
00:10:51,500 --> 00:10:53,083
this is the future, that there's
424
00:10:53,083 --> 00:10:54,625
no way this, this unstoppable,
425
00:10:54,625 --> 00:10:56,166
truly unstoppable.
426
00:10:56,166 --> 00:10:58,208
So. So, yeah.
427
00:10:58,208 --> 00:10:59,041
100% agree.
428
00:10:59,041 --> 00:11:00,375
And, with what made the
429
00:11:00,375 --> 00:11:01,000
this situation
430
00:11:01,000 --> 00:11:02,083
even more special,
431
00:11:02,083 --> 00:11:03,291
not only being in China,
432
00:11:03,291 --> 00:11:05,583
but also being in BTC
433
00:11:05,583 --> 00:11:08,375
was that you had, Samsung in that.
434
00:11:08,375 --> 00:11:08,625
Right.
435
00:11:08,625 --> 00:11:09,333
So Samsung
436
00:11:09,333 --> 00:11:11,500
was one of the vocal applicators,
437
00:11:11,500 --> 00:11:12,333
like the first thing,
438
00:11:12,333 --> 00:11:13,291
one of the first things I got
439
00:11:13,291 --> 00:11:14,500
from was a was
440
00:11:14,500 --> 00:11:15,791
I had no idea what it was.
441
00:11:15,791 --> 00:11:17,750
But then I started, you know, like
442
00:11:17,750 --> 00:11:18,666
informing myself,
443
00:11:18,666 --> 00:11:19,666
what the hell is going on here?
444
00:11:19,666 --> 00:11:21,041
But I was right there.
445
00:11:21,041 --> 00:11:22,916
The source of information
446
00:11:22,916 --> 00:11:23,541
and also
447
00:11:23,541 --> 00:11:26,083
from a corporate standpoint,
448
00:11:26,083 --> 00:11:27,125
the came from the rest
449
00:11:27,125 --> 00:11:28,000
of the management team
450
00:11:28,000 --> 00:11:29,166
that wanted something different.
451
00:11:29,166 --> 00:11:30,875
So there was an internal conflict,
452
00:11:30,875 --> 00:11:32,166
going on as well. So,
453
00:11:33,583 --> 00:11:34,500
highly confusing.
454
00:11:34,500 --> 00:11:35,250
But in the end,
455
00:11:35,250 --> 00:11:36,166
I appreciate
456
00:11:36,166 --> 00:11:38,000
so much appreciated so much
457
00:11:38,000 --> 00:11:39,666
that I had the chance to be there
458
00:11:39,666 --> 00:11:40,375
and actually
459
00:11:40,375 --> 00:11:42,666
have all this information
460
00:11:42,666 --> 00:11:43,958
right at that time.
461
00:11:43,958 --> 00:11:45,250
Whereas I'll,
462
00:11:45,250 --> 00:11:45,583
you know,
463
00:11:45,583 --> 00:11:46,958
I think for, for many others,
464
00:11:46,958 --> 00:11:48,583
they just didn't have access to,
465
00:11:48,583 --> 00:11:50,166
to these kind of things.
466
00:11:50,166 --> 00:11:51,500
No, it's it's fantastic.
467
00:11:51,500 --> 00:11:53,208
You have like first hand information
468
00:11:53,208 --> 00:11:56,208
like you were there and
469
00:11:56,250 --> 00:11:58,000
I witnessed it from the sideline.
470
00:11:58,000 --> 00:11:59,500
I mean, I was witness
471
00:11:59,500 --> 00:12:01,833
it from, from my couch
472
00:12:01,833 --> 00:12:03,416
via whatever I read online,
473
00:12:03,416 --> 00:12:05,666
but the whole,
474
00:12:05,666 --> 00:12:06,791
I mean, even Samsung,
475
00:12:06,791 --> 00:12:08,291
Samsung has told me that his,
476
00:12:08,291 --> 00:12:10,000
his views on what Bitcoin was
477
00:12:10,000 --> 00:12:12,333
has changed a lot during that time.
478
00:12:12,333 --> 00:12:13,625
And even
479
00:12:13,625 --> 00:12:15,208
like even
480
00:12:15,208 --> 00:12:17,625
he wasn't like clearly on one side
481
00:12:17,625 --> 00:12:19,791
until until specific points
482
00:12:19,791 --> 00:12:22,791
and the events that unfolded.
483
00:12:23,083 --> 00:12:24,583
And it's it's so interesting
484
00:12:24,583 --> 00:12:26,083
because you have these developers
485
00:12:26,083 --> 00:12:27,958
which are mostly from the English
486
00:12:27,958 --> 00:12:29,083
speaking world,
487
00:12:29,083 --> 00:12:30,333
and then
488
00:12:30,333 --> 00:12:31,958
the hardware manufacturers
489
00:12:31,958 --> 00:12:33,708
and the the exchanges
490
00:12:33,708 --> 00:12:34,916
and the miners are
491
00:12:34,916 --> 00:12:36,333
mostly from the Chinese
492
00:12:36,333 --> 00:12:37,458
speaking world.
493
00:12:37,458 --> 00:12:40,333
And it's it's pretty hard to,
494
00:12:40,333 --> 00:12:40,958
to like bridge
495
00:12:40,958 --> 00:12:42,125
the gap between the two.
496
00:12:42,125 --> 00:12:42,916
And, yeah,
497
00:12:42,916 --> 00:12:44,083
I finally find it
498
00:12:44,083 --> 00:12:45,333
insanely fascinating.
499
00:12:45,333 --> 00:12:46,916
And, yeah, people
500
00:12:46,916 --> 00:12:48,083
should study it more on and,
501
00:12:49,083 --> 00:12:51,583
the, the story should get out more.
502
00:12:51,583 --> 00:12:53,416
There's a good book about it.
503
00:12:53,416 --> 00:12:54,333
But I believe
504
00:12:54,333 --> 00:12:55,625
there will be more books about it
505
00:12:55,625 --> 00:12:57,125
in the future. Yeah.
506
00:12:57,125 --> 00:12:57,958
Thank you.
507
00:12:57,958 --> 00:12:59,708
Professor. Okay. Very good to know.
508
00:12:59,708 --> 00:13:01,375
All right.
509
00:13:01,375 --> 00:13:03,208
We'll see
510
00:13:03,208 --> 00:13:04,541
anyway, where are we?
511
00:13:04,541 --> 00:13:05,666
Yeah. Volts.
512
00:13:05,666 --> 00:13:06,833
Can you tell us a little more
513
00:13:06,833 --> 00:13:08,375
about volts? What is? Bolts?
514
00:13:08,375 --> 00:13:09,541
And, Yeah.
515
00:13:09,541 --> 00:13:10,458
How has it changed
516
00:13:10,458 --> 00:13:12,208
since you went full time?
517
00:13:12,208 --> 00:13:13,083
Sure.
518
00:13:13,083 --> 00:13:14,500
So bolts started
519
00:13:14,500 --> 00:13:16,083
out, as I said, like a like a band.
520
00:13:16,083 --> 00:13:16,541
So basically
521
00:13:16,541 --> 00:13:17,541
the initial idea
522
00:13:17,541 --> 00:13:20,833
of bolts was to create a service
523
00:13:21,416 --> 00:13:22,750
that would connect
524
00:13:22,750 --> 00:13:24,333
to your lightning note
525
00:13:24,333 --> 00:13:25,500
and take care.
526
00:13:25,500 --> 00:13:27,208
The channels are in balance,
527
00:13:27,208 --> 00:13:28,333
basically.
528
00:13:28,333 --> 00:13:31,000
However, you wanted them to be like,
529
00:13:31,000 --> 00:13:33,000
have this amount of inbound minimum
530
00:13:33,000 --> 00:13:33,458
with this amount
531
00:13:33,458 --> 00:13:34,708
of abutment, minimum.
532
00:13:34,708 --> 00:13:35,666
So that's basically
533
00:13:35,666 --> 00:13:36,583
the idea of bolts.
534
00:13:36,583 --> 00:13:37,416
So it was really this
535
00:13:37,416 --> 00:13:39,458
tightly coupled lightning
536
00:13:39,458 --> 00:13:40,500
rebalancing service.
537
00:13:41,875 --> 00:13:44,166
We quickly,
538
00:13:44,166 --> 00:13:45,125
pretty quickly we,
539
00:13:45,125 --> 00:13:45,791
we opened it
540
00:13:45,791 --> 00:13:48,791
up, to the outer world though with
541
00:13:49,583 --> 00:13:50,375
with a website.
542
00:13:50,375 --> 00:13:51,916
So that's something that makes bolts
543
00:13:51,916 --> 00:13:53,583
very special that you not
544
00:13:53,583 --> 00:13:56,083
only technical people can access it
545
00:13:56,083 --> 00:13:56,666
on, but also
546
00:13:56,666 --> 00:13:58,041
it has a pretty easy
547
00:13:58,041 --> 00:14:00,791
to use, web interface,
548
00:14:00,791 --> 00:14:01,541
which is available
549
00:14:01,541 --> 00:14:02,833
at bolts that exchange.
550
00:14:02,833 --> 00:14:04,583
So it's a simple website with a,
551
00:14:04,583 --> 00:14:04,958
I want to go
552
00:14:04,958 --> 00:14:06,083
from lightning to bitcoin,
553
00:14:06,083 --> 00:14:08,541
and this is how much I want to swap.
554
00:14:08,541 --> 00:14:09,583
And we launched a website
555
00:14:09,583 --> 00:14:11,791
already back in 2019.
556
00:14:11,791 --> 00:14:13,041
So, back
557
00:14:13,041 --> 00:14:15,083
then it was a little bit unthinkable
558
00:14:15,083 --> 00:14:16,291
to do all the crypto magic
559
00:14:16,291 --> 00:14:17,708
that is required for this,
560
00:14:17,708 --> 00:14:19,000
for this service to function
561
00:14:19,000 --> 00:14:19,833
in a, in a web app.
562
00:14:19,833 --> 00:14:22,500
But, it was definitely possible.
563
00:14:22,500 --> 00:14:23,583
So then we spent some time
564
00:14:23,583 --> 00:14:24,708
working around the,
565
00:14:24,708 --> 00:14:26,875
the UX issues and,
566
00:14:26,875 --> 00:14:28,833
yeah, make it make it really,
567
00:14:28,833 --> 00:14:31,958
a decent, a decent enough UX.
568
00:14:31,958 --> 00:14:32,833
That being said,
569
00:14:32,833 --> 00:14:34,291
the first website was horrible.
570
00:14:34,291 --> 00:14:36,625
It was. Utterly. Ugly. Yeah.
571
00:14:36,625 --> 00:14:38,083
Ugly.
572
00:14:38,083 --> 00:14:39,791
Beyond imagination.
573
00:14:39,791 --> 00:14:41,125
I think I still have,
574
00:14:41,125 --> 00:14:42,041
we still in our blog,
575
00:14:42,041 --> 00:14:43,000
still somewhat have,
576
00:14:43,000 --> 00:14:44,750
we have a blog post up,
577
00:14:44,750 --> 00:14:45,625
where we have the three
578
00:14:45,625 --> 00:14:46,583
different versions of three
579
00:14:46,583 --> 00:14:47,875
different iterations of a web app
580
00:14:47,875 --> 00:14:48,458
to look at,
581
00:14:48,458 --> 00:14:49,416
and that it's just funny
582
00:14:49,416 --> 00:14:50,041
if we look back
583
00:14:50,041 --> 00:14:50,583
and how things were
584
00:14:50,583 --> 00:14:51,791
looking back then,
585
00:14:51,791 --> 00:14:52,416
but it was functional.
586
00:14:52,416 --> 00:14:53,458
That was the most important thing
587
00:14:53,458 --> 00:14:54,916
you could got moved between the,
588
00:14:54,916 --> 00:14:55,916
the Bitcoin main
589
00:14:55,916 --> 00:14:57,500
chain, and lightning tools
590
00:14:57,500 --> 00:14:58,958
to keep the channels balanced.
591
00:14:58,958 --> 00:15:00,125
And then
592
00:15:00,125 --> 00:15:02,125
this was basically unchanged
593
00:15:02,125 --> 00:15:03,416
until 2023.
594
00:15:03,416 --> 00:15:05,208
That was the,
595
00:15:05,208 --> 00:15:06,833
the premise to use people
596
00:15:06,833 --> 00:15:09,000
that the product had positioning
597
00:15:09,000 --> 00:15:11,500
and and 2023
598
00:15:11,500 --> 00:15:12,583
when we looked at it
599
00:15:12,583 --> 00:15:13,958
and said, okay, we want
600
00:15:13,958 --> 00:15:14,708
I want to put attention,
601
00:15:14,708 --> 00:15:15,708
we're basically think, okay,
602
00:15:15,708 --> 00:15:17,083
what what's what's the next step?
603
00:15:17,083 --> 00:15:17,833
What else?
604
00:15:17,833 --> 00:15:19,291
What else could bots do
605
00:15:19,291 --> 00:15:22,041
to help to help bitcoiners. And,
606
00:15:23,125 --> 00:15:26,125
then 2023 happened.
607
00:15:26,250 --> 00:15:28,208
You know, ordinals and,
608
00:15:28,208 --> 00:15:29,708
let's just call it mempool.
609
00:15:29,708 --> 00:15:32,541
Congestion happens like, every time.
610
00:15:32,541 --> 00:15:36,666
Go to WTF happened in February 2023.
611
00:15:36,666 --> 00:15:38,125
Very good website.
612
00:15:38,125 --> 00:15:38,541
Okay,
613
00:15:38,541 --> 00:15:39,666
I didn't know about this website,
614
00:15:39,666 --> 00:15:40,750
but yes.
615
00:15:40,750 --> 00:15:41,333
So that is
616
00:15:41,333 --> 00:15:42,583
that was the time
617
00:15:42,583 --> 00:15:43,833
where we saw the window
618
00:15:43,833 --> 00:15:44,708
of a window
619
00:15:44,708 --> 00:15:47,083
of opportunity for, for eclipse.
620
00:15:47,083 --> 00:15:49,958
So it became pretty evident
621
00:15:49,958 --> 00:15:51,291
that even for channel,
622
00:15:51,291 --> 00:15:52,583
especially for channel rebalancing,
623
00:15:52,583 --> 00:15:53,500
because that was
624
00:15:53,500 --> 00:15:54,458
that was the use case
625
00:15:54,458 --> 00:15:55,583
that we were talking about, okay,
626
00:15:55,583 --> 00:15:57,250
this was not functioning anymore.
627
00:15:57,250 --> 00:15:57,500
Right?
628
00:15:57,500 --> 00:15:58,125
So, we
629
00:15:58,125 --> 00:15:59,291
we increasingly noticed
630
00:15:59,291 --> 00:16:00,333
how the Lightning Network
631
00:16:00,333 --> 00:16:02,166
was becoming less reliable,
632
00:16:02,166 --> 00:16:03,833
because the rebalancing mechanism
633
00:16:03,833 --> 00:16:04,208
based on
634
00:16:04,208 --> 00:16:06,125
the mentioned was less reliable.
635
00:16:06,125 --> 00:16:07,250
It was not reliable at all.
636
00:16:07,250 --> 00:16:08,708
It didn't work right,
637
00:16:08,708 --> 00:16:09,500
which basically didn't
638
00:16:09,500 --> 00:16:10,541
work for an entire week.
639
00:16:10,541 --> 00:16:11,125
And you could notice
640
00:16:11,125 --> 00:16:11,958
how lightning payments
641
00:16:11,958 --> 00:16:13,916
were increasingly difficult
642
00:16:13,916 --> 00:16:14,666
to get through
643
00:16:14,666 --> 00:16:15,875
because channels were
644
00:16:15,875 --> 00:16:17,625
only imbalance.
645
00:16:17,625 --> 00:16:18,250
So I said, okay, what's
646
00:16:18,250 --> 00:16:19,250
what's the solution to that?
647
00:16:19,250 --> 00:16:20,166
And then we we looked
648
00:16:20,166 --> 00:16:21,375
at liquid again.
649
00:16:22,541 --> 00:16:24,583
Because I'm saying again,
650
00:16:24,583 --> 00:16:26,291
we had the out of pure
651
00:16:26,291 --> 00:16:27,791
technical interest.
652
00:16:27,791 --> 00:16:28,833
We started,
653
00:16:28,833 --> 00:16:29,916
with a liquid integration
654
00:16:29,916 --> 00:16:31,208
already a year before.
655
00:16:31,208 --> 00:16:33,750
There was just never the motivation.
656
00:16:33,750 --> 00:16:35,833
And, you know, not being full time,
657
00:16:35,833 --> 00:16:36,958
just being a hobby,
658
00:16:36,958 --> 00:16:38,583
that was just never the motivation
659
00:16:38,583 --> 00:16:40,625
to push it across the finish line.
660
00:16:40,625 --> 00:16:43,041
But 95% of the work was done.
661
00:16:43,041 --> 00:16:44,416
So, then we had the motivation say,
662
00:16:44,416 --> 00:16:44,916
okay, that
663
00:16:44,916 --> 00:16:46,208
this is actually
664
00:16:46,208 --> 00:16:47,916
this might be quite the solution
665
00:16:47,916 --> 00:16:48,750
for for letting
666
00:16:48,750 --> 00:16:49,750
channel rebalancing
667
00:16:49,750 --> 00:16:51,333
in, you know, in times
668
00:16:51,333 --> 00:16:52,375
where we have
669
00:16:52,375 --> 00:16:52,916
these sustained
670
00:16:52,916 --> 00:16:55,625
high, high fee, levels.
671
00:16:55,625 --> 00:16:56,208
So we did
672
00:16:56,208 --> 00:16:56,958
and we launched it
673
00:16:56,958 --> 00:16:58,583
maybe like a week
674
00:16:58,583 --> 00:17:00,333
or one of the five weeks after
675
00:17:00,333 --> 00:17:01,666
after the fee increase happened.
676
00:17:01,666 --> 00:17:02,708
So that impact was like,
677
00:17:02,708 --> 00:17:03,583
wow, these guys
678
00:17:03,583 --> 00:17:05,083
implemented all this in a week.
679
00:17:05,083 --> 00:17:06,791
And so it's not exactly true
680
00:17:06,791 --> 00:17:07,625
because we,
681
00:17:07,625 --> 00:17:09,791
you know, had this lying around for
682
00:17:09,791 --> 00:17:10,791
for more than a year.
683
00:17:10,791 --> 00:17:11,833
But this is where we launched
684
00:17:11,833 --> 00:17:12,250
it back.
685
00:17:12,250 --> 00:17:14,250
And I think it was end of May,
686
00:17:14,250 --> 00:17:16,041
May 30th or something like that,
687
00:17:16,041 --> 00:17:16,916
where we launched
688
00:17:16,916 --> 00:17:19,791
liquid swaps and went out with that.
689
00:17:19,791 --> 00:17:21,875
And then things started changing.
690
00:17:21,875 --> 00:17:23,916
We saw a lot of interest,
691
00:17:23,916 --> 00:17:25,041
porting and also criticism
692
00:17:25,041 --> 00:17:26,458
goes, you know, you
693
00:17:26,458 --> 00:17:27,583
you don't do these things right.
694
00:17:27,583 --> 00:17:28,500
If there's not a decent amount
695
00:17:28,500 --> 00:17:29,541
of criticism in the market.
696
00:17:31,041 --> 00:17:34,458
But, since then, I think what
697
00:17:35,000 --> 00:17:36,458
we changed the perception
698
00:17:36,458 --> 00:17:38,333
of, of the liquid network,
699
00:17:38,333 --> 00:17:39,833
we changed the way
700
00:17:39,833 --> 00:17:41,083
people think about it
701
00:17:41,083 --> 00:17:43,208
and how it's being used right now.
702
00:17:43,208 --> 00:17:45,041
Because as of today,
703
00:17:45,041 --> 00:17:46,083
we are not only doing
704
00:17:46,083 --> 00:17:47,291
channel rebalancing,
705
00:17:47,291 --> 00:17:50,166
we've also enabled a new kind of,
706
00:17:50,166 --> 00:17:51,208
wallet
707
00:17:51,208 --> 00:17:52,083
to interact
708
00:17:52,083 --> 00:17:54,000
with lightning using liquid swaps.
709
00:17:54,000 --> 00:17:54,666
So that's something
710
00:17:54,666 --> 00:17:56,083
that has been wildly successful
711
00:17:56,083 --> 00:17:58,458
in the past couple of months.
712
00:17:58,458 --> 00:18:01,458
So these things were developing,
713
00:18:02,791 --> 00:18:04,333
and, and the since we launched
714
00:18:04,333 --> 00:18:05,625
liquid one roughly
715
00:18:05,625 --> 00:18:07,166
one and a half years ago,
716
00:18:07,166 --> 00:18:07,833
another add on that
717
00:18:07,833 --> 00:18:10,208
we're doing right now is,
718
00:18:10,208 --> 00:18:12,041
is the BTC pay plugin.
719
00:18:12,041 --> 00:18:14,875
So that allows you to
720
00:18:14,875 --> 00:18:15,750
accept lightning
721
00:18:15,750 --> 00:18:17,375
without running a lightning node.
722
00:18:17,375 --> 00:18:19,083
So this not running a lightning
723
00:18:19,083 --> 00:18:20,708
node is becoming
724
00:18:20,708 --> 00:18:22,916
increasingly popular.
725
00:18:22,916 --> 00:18:25,208
Not that's you know,
726
00:18:25,208 --> 00:18:26,416
we need to support lightning.
727
00:18:26,416 --> 00:18:28,333
And we will always want to help
728
00:18:28,333 --> 00:18:29,791
lightning with rebalancing.
729
00:18:29,791 --> 00:18:31,500
But running a lightning
730
00:18:31,500 --> 00:18:32,291
node is simply it's
731
00:18:32,291 --> 00:18:33,041
not for everyone.
732
00:18:33,041 --> 00:18:34,166
And that's something we realized.
733
00:18:34,166 --> 00:18:34,625
And that's why
734
00:18:34,625 --> 00:18:35,750
we're increasing our product
735
00:18:35,750 --> 00:18:36,625
offering for
736
00:18:36,625 --> 00:18:37,916
for these kind of things.
737
00:18:37,916 --> 00:18:39,500
And it's also being accepted
738
00:18:39,500 --> 00:18:40,416
really well by the market,
739
00:18:40,416 --> 00:18:41,375
even though it's, better.
740
00:18:43,166 --> 00:18:44,958
So yeah, these are the, the,
741
00:18:44,958 --> 00:18:45,791
the things that we are
742
00:18:45,791 --> 00:18:46,625
that we're building out
743
00:18:46,625 --> 00:18:47,583
and the long term vision,
744
00:18:47,583 --> 00:18:48,083
that's probably
745
00:18:48,083 --> 00:18:49,375
how it should terminate
746
00:18:49,375 --> 00:18:49,875
with all of this.
747
00:18:49,875 --> 00:18:51,333
The long term vision
748
00:18:51,333 --> 00:18:54,041
of boards is to be
749
00:18:54,041 --> 00:18:55,625
the connecting
750
00:18:55,625 --> 00:18:56,250
the the place
751
00:18:56,250 --> 00:18:57,375
that connects the different
752
00:18:57,375 --> 00:18:58,625
Bitcoin layers.
753
00:18:58,625 --> 00:18:59,750
Saying between layers.
754
00:18:59,750 --> 00:19:00,458
Picture layer two
755
00:19:00,458 --> 00:19:01,583
is that's a different discussion
756
00:19:01,583 --> 00:19:03,333
we can have later.
757
00:19:03,333 --> 00:19:04,750
The different layers of Bitcoin.
758
00:19:04,750 --> 00:19:04,958
Yeah.
759
00:19:04,958 --> 00:19:07,958
So if you want to move your bitcoin
760
00:19:08,333 --> 00:19:09,250
from lightning
761
00:19:09,250 --> 00:19:11,291
to liquid to the main main chain
762
00:19:11,291 --> 00:19:13,250
and as of recently also to the roots
763
00:19:13,250 --> 00:19:15,000
looks like chain,
764
00:19:15,000 --> 00:19:17,416
bolts is the place to go.
765
00:19:17,416 --> 00:19:18,791
The very special thing
766
00:19:18,791 --> 00:19:19,625
or the thing
767
00:19:19,625 --> 00:19:20,875
that makes bolts specialty
768
00:19:20,875 --> 00:19:23,000
is that all this is non-custodial.
769
00:19:23,000 --> 00:19:23,833
So we are
770
00:19:23,833 --> 00:19:26,291
retaining the control of your funds
771
00:19:26,291 --> 00:19:27,791
throughout the swap process.
772
00:19:29,833 --> 00:19:30,333
Cool.
773
00:19:30,333 --> 00:19:32,083
So
774
00:19:32,083 --> 00:19:34,750
like, yeah, this is so fascinating
775
00:19:34,750 --> 00:19:35,666
because it's
776
00:19:35,666 --> 00:19:36,250
in a way
777
00:19:36,250 --> 00:19:39,250
it's a response to to an attack.
778
00:19:39,666 --> 00:19:40,625
Like if you view
779
00:19:40,625 --> 00:19:41,541
the ordinals thing
780
00:19:41,541 --> 00:19:42,333
as an attack
781
00:19:42,333 --> 00:19:45,333
on, on, on the on maintain
782
00:19:45,583 --> 00:19:46,625
that or an attack
783
00:19:46,625 --> 00:19:48,583
on lightning, really.
784
00:19:48,583 --> 00:19:50,291
Because it reduces the functionality
785
00:19:50,291 --> 00:19:51,125
of like lightning.
786
00:19:51,125 --> 00:19:52,416
So it's an inner
787
00:19:52,416 --> 00:19:53,708
it's sort of a response
788
00:19:53,708 --> 00:19:54,791
to an attack in the from.
789
00:19:54,791 --> 00:19:55,333
That's a
790
00:19:55,333 --> 00:19:56,791
do you view, do you view
791
00:19:56,791 --> 00:19:59,791
the ordinals thing as an attack.
792
00:20:02,166 --> 00:20:05,166
I'm not pro ordinals obviously.
793
00:20:05,500 --> 00:20:07,833
But I don't think I
794
00:20:07,833 --> 00:20:10,041
you few of them really as an attack.
795
00:20:10,041 --> 00:20:11,083
I don't think they were
796
00:20:11,083 --> 00:20:13,000
really intended as an attack.
797
00:20:13,000 --> 00:20:13,958
The result was right.
798
00:20:13,958 --> 00:20:15,083
So the result was large
799
00:20:15,083 --> 00:20:16,416
interruptions across the board.
800
00:20:16,416 --> 00:20:16,833
By the way,
801
00:20:16,833 --> 00:20:18,333
we had to shut down both services
802
00:20:18,333 --> 00:20:20,166
for four days in a row
803
00:20:20,166 --> 00:20:22,041
because all our working capital,
804
00:20:22,041 --> 00:20:23,000
the capital that we used for us
805
00:20:23,000 --> 00:20:24,333
was, was locked up in the method.
806
00:20:24,333 --> 00:20:25,666
So get out of money, guys.
807
00:20:25,666 --> 00:20:28,666
We you know, that that's, you know,
808
00:20:28,708 --> 00:20:29,708
replenish and replenish.
809
00:20:29,708 --> 00:20:31,208
It was okay. Like, there's a limit.
810
00:20:31,208 --> 00:20:32,166
We can't do that anymore.
811
00:20:32,166 --> 00:20:32,875
We have to shut off.
812
00:20:32,875 --> 00:20:33,875
So yeah, that was.
813
00:20:33,875 --> 00:20:35,041
And that we were not the only one.
814
00:20:35,041 --> 00:20:36,125
A lot of other services had the
815
00:20:36,125 --> 00:20:37,958
same issue in May 2023.
816
00:20:39,333 --> 00:20:40,208
That being said, I don't
817
00:20:40,208 --> 00:20:41,166
think it was
818
00:20:41,166 --> 00:20:42,333
it was meant to be
819
00:20:42,333 --> 00:20:44,375
this intentional attack.
820
00:20:44,375 --> 00:20:46,666
And I maybe I'm naive,
821
00:20:46,666 --> 00:20:47,833
but I believe in people
822
00:20:47,833 --> 00:20:48,791
just doing
823
00:20:48,791 --> 00:20:50,791
the cutting around to doing things.
824
00:20:50,791 --> 00:20:52,291
But it resulted to be one.
825
00:20:52,291 --> 00:20:53,833
And
826
00:20:53,833 --> 00:20:55,708
but instead of complaining about it,
827
00:20:55,708 --> 00:20:57,666
we chose to
828
00:20:57,666 --> 00:21:00,041
work on something that might help.
829
00:21:00,041 --> 00:21:00,750
Yeah.
830
00:21:00,750 --> 00:21:02,166
Which was the response
831
00:21:02,166 --> 00:21:04,833
to the actual attack back in 2017
832
00:21:04,833 --> 00:21:06,541
when when, Roger
833
00:21:06,541 --> 00:21:07,791
was promoting
834
00:21:07,791 --> 00:21:08,916
Bitcoin Cash and, like,
835
00:21:08,916 --> 00:21:10,875
clogging up the chain with like,
836
00:21:10,875 --> 00:21:13,083
this is before fee estimations
837
00:21:13,083 --> 00:21:13,625
and all of that.
838
00:21:13,625 --> 00:21:15,708
So, so you paid like $20
839
00:21:15,708 --> 00:21:17,125
per transactions
840
00:21:17,125 --> 00:21:20,458
per transaction back in 2017, which,
841
00:21:20,666 --> 00:21:22,750
which a very,
842
00:21:22,750 --> 00:21:24,458
very obviously was an attack.
843
00:21:24,458 --> 00:21:25,750
This this is not as obvious.
844
00:21:25,750 --> 00:21:27,833
It might, might just be,
845
00:21:27,833 --> 00:21:30,333
a consequence of,
846
00:21:30,333 --> 00:21:32,833
of decisions like,
847
00:21:32,833 --> 00:21:34,041
SegWit interpret this.
848
00:21:34,041 --> 00:21:35,583
This might be an unintended
849
00:21:35,583 --> 00:21:36,541
consequence of that,
850
00:21:36,541 --> 00:21:37,666
that the chain is now
851
00:21:37,666 --> 00:21:38,958
being used this way.
852
00:21:38,958 --> 00:21:40,833
And whether it's a deliberate attack
853
00:21:40,833 --> 00:21:41,833
or just a coincidence.
854
00:21:41,833 --> 00:21:43,208
What what is it called like?
855
00:21:43,208 --> 00:21:45,708
Occam's razor is one thing, but,
856
00:21:45,708 --> 00:21:46,958
the easiest explanation.
857
00:21:46,958 --> 00:21:47,333
But this,
858
00:21:47,333 --> 00:21:48,666
someone else's razor,
859
00:21:48,666 --> 00:21:49,750
which is like,
860
00:21:49,750 --> 00:21:50,708
never,
861
00:21:50,708 --> 00:21:53,708
never attribute to to malice that
862
00:21:53,875 --> 00:21:57,333
which can be explained by stupidity
863
00:21:57,333 --> 00:22:00,375
or stupidity is, they are stupid.
864
00:22:00,375 --> 00:22:00,875
I believe in that.
865
00:22:00,875 --> 00:22:02,750
Everyone agrees that they're stupid.
866
00:22:02,750 --> 00:22:04,750
Like, it's it's just,
867
00:22:04,750 --> 00:22:05,500
But but
868
00:22:05,500 --> 00:22:07,541
I find the similarities here,
869
00:22:09,291 --> 00:22:11,708
very fascinating that it's
870
00:22:11,708 --> 00:22:14,833
it it acts as, as a de facto attack,
871
00:22:14,833 --> 00:22:15,333
even though
872
00:22:15,333 --> 00:22:16,666
it might not have been an
873
00:22:16,666 --> 00:22:18,791
intended attack.
874
00:22:18,791 --> 00:22:21,291
But the immune system response
875
00:22:21,291 --> 00:22:22,791
from the network,
876
00:22:22,791 --> 00:22:24,041
you being the white
877
00:22:24,041 --> 00:22:26,166
blood cells there is,
878
00:22:26,166 --> 00:22:28,833
or you being the immune system
879
00:22:28,833 --> 00:22:31,833
of the network, you and others, like
880
00:22:32,375 --> 00:22:34,458
it is similar to what it was back
881
00:22:34,458 --> 00:22:35,250
then where like,
882
00:22:35,250 --> 00:22:37,958
just build around this. The stuff.
883
00:22:37,958 --> 00:22:38,750
The the net.
884
00:22:38,750 --> 00:22:39,666
It's a net positive.
885
00:22:39,666 --> 00:22:40,166
Definitely.
886
00:22:40,166 --> 00:22:41,583
So, I, I,
887
00:22:41,583 --> 00:22:43,625
I appreciate these kind of,
888
00:22:43,625 --> 00:22:44,708
events to happen
889
00:22:44,708 --> 00:22:45,875
because even though
890
00:22:45,875 --> 00:22:47,791
you lose a couple of nights of sleep
891
00:22:47,791 --> 00:22:48,583
and everything
892
00:22:48,583 --> 00:22:49,458
looks like doomsday
893
00:22:49,458 --> 00:22:52,416
for, for for some time,
894
00:22:52,416 --> 00:22:54,041
Bitcoin always comes out top right,
895
00:22:54,041 --> 00:22:55,541
and it forces us to,
896
00:22:55,541 --> 00:22:57,125
to to think out of the box
897
00:22:57,125 --> 00:22:58,458
and work on solutions
898
00:22:58,458 --> 00:22:59,916
that will mitigate this in future.
899
00:22:59,916 --> 00:23:01,166
So and mitigate
900
00:23:01,166 --> 00:23:02,666
a potentially even more drastic,
901
00:23:03,666 --> 00:23:05,208
consequences.
902
00:23:05,208 --> 00:23:07,416
Yeah. So, so,
903
00:23:07,416 --> 00:23:09,875
this takes us into this,
904
00:23:09,875 --> 00:23:12,041
question,
905
00:23:12,041 --> 00:23:13,750
about centralization.
906
00:23:13,750 --> 00:23:17,541
Like, how is bolts, helping
907
00:23:18,041 --> 00:23:19,166
decentralization
908
00:23:19,166 --> 00:23:21,875
rather than being centralized itself
909
00:23:21,875 --> 00:23:22,541
like it's
910
00:23:22,541 --> 00:23:24,250
bolts are so liquid,
911
00:23:24,250 --> 00:23:25,541
as you can argue,
912
00:23:25,541 --> 00:23:26,916
how centralized that is.
913
00:23:26,916 --> 00:23:27,375
But like,
914
00:23:27,375 --> 00:23:28,708
what's the arguments there
915
00:23:28,708 --> 00:23:29,916
and how much do you think
916
00:23:29,916 --> 00:23:31,500
about decentralization
917
00:23:31,500 --> 00:23:32,916
was what,
918
00:23:32,916 --> 00:23:34,916
issues when you make decisions
919
00:23:34,916 --> 00:23:36,666
in the company?
920
00:23:36,666 --> 00:23:37,625
Sure.
921
00:23:37,625 --> 00:23:38,416
First I want to say
922
00:23:38,416 --> 00:23:39,875
we are for profit company.
923
00:23:39,875 --> 00:23:40,166
Right.
924
00:23:40,166 --> 00:23:41,333
So, bolts.
925
00:23:41,333 --> 00:23:44,166
Bolts is not a, project anymore.
926
00:23:44,166 --> 00:23:47,166
It is, serious for profit venture.
927
00:23:47,500 --> 00:23:49,333
And even with a legal entity,
928
00:23:49,333 --> 00:23:51,666
we're headquartered in El Salvador.
929
00:23:51,666 --> 00:23:53,500
We pay taxes there.
930
00:23:53,500 --> 00:23:55,500
So the this is
931
00:23:55,500 --> 00:23:56,875
this is a serious business venture
932
00:23:56,875 --> 00:23:59,875
since since one and a half years.
933
00:24:00,583 --> 00:24:02,166
So we have an interest and
934
00:24:02,166 --> 00:24:04,625
and making a profit and,
935
00:24:04,625 --> 00:24:06,708
and in my opinion, that much that
936
00:24:06,708 --> 00:24:08,375
that really should be okay.
937
00:24:10,333 --> 00:24:11,000
And it's,
938
00:24:11,000 --> 00:24:13,625
it's making us independent.
939
00:24:13,625 --> 00:24:14,750
More independent
940
00:24:14,750 --> 00:24:17,250
than if we were purely,
941
00:24:17,250 --> 00:24:19,375
based, you know,
942
00:24:19,375 --> 00:24:20,625
funding, funding ourselves
943
00:24:20,625 --> 00:24:22,208
by a grants or something with that.
944
00:24:22,208 --> 00:24:24,791
So you see that,
945
00:24:24,791 --> 00:24:26,000
a profitable,
946
00:24:26,000 --> 00:24:27,291
a profitable business model
947
00:24:27,291 --> 00:24:29,708
that develops software,
948
00:24:29,708 --> 00:24:30,416
actually has.
949
00:24:30,416 --> 00:24:31,875
Yeah, has,
950
00:24:31,875 --> 00:24:33,041
has a brighter future
951
00:24:33,041 --> 00:24:34,500
than someone that is depending
952
00:24:34,500 --> 00:24:35,833
on the mercy
953
00:24:35,833 --> 00:24:36,666
end of the grant of
954
00:24:36,666 --> 00:24:38,416
of of someone else.
955
00:24:38,416 --> 00:24:39,625
That being said,
956
00:24:39,625 --> 00:24:40,500
even though we are,
957
00:24:40,500 --> 00:24:41,291
for profit company,
958
00:24:41,291 --> 00:24:42,375
we still decided
959
00:24:42,375 --> 00:24:44,083
or we especially decided
960
00:24:44,083 --> 00:24:45,791
to open source our code.
961
00:24:45,791 --> 00:24:46,166
And that
962
00:24:46,166 --> 00:24:46,500
is part
963
00:24:46,500 --> 00:24:49,500
of our decentralization, strategy.
964
00:24:49,958 --> 00:24:52,958
It actually the topic came up,
965
00:24:52,958 --> 00:24:54,750
when we were talking with breeze
966
00:24:54,750 --> 00:24:56,000
or when I was talking to Roy
967
00:24:56,000 --> 00:24:57,333
from Breece,
968
00:24:57,333 --> 00:24:59,375
to integrate bolts into their new,
969
00:24:59,375 --> 00:25:00,250
liquid SDK.
970
00:25:00,250 --> 00:25:02,041
So the the topic came up
971
00:25:02,041 --> 00:25:04,166
basically saying, hey, Killian,
972
00:25:04,166 --> 00:25:05,000
bolts are super cool.
973
00:25:05,000 --> 00:25:06,375
It's a nice service,
974
00:25:06,375 --> 00:25:07,500
but what if it goes down?
975
00:25:07,500 --> 00:25:09,083
Or what if you decide to
976
00:25:09,083 --> 00:25:10,416
to raise your fees? Tanks.
977
00:25:10,416 --> 00:25:11,291
Like what
978
00:25:11,291 --> 00:25:12,500
what what am I going to do?
979
00:25:12,500 --> 00:25:13,958
I'm locked in.
980
00:25:13,958 --> 00:25:16,000
And after a couple of back
981
00:25:16,000 --> 00:25:17,000
and forth,
982
00:25:17,000 --> 00:25:17,750
it was clear that
983
00:25:17,750 --> 00:25:18,791
that we had to open source
984
00:25:18,791 --> 00:25:20,583
all our code, including the backend,
985
00:25:20,583 --> 00:25:22,708
so that if push comes to shove
986
00:25:22,708 --> 00:25:23,750
and we have to shut down,
987
00:25:23,750 --> 00:25:24,875
or if our service
988
00:25:24,875 --> 00:25:26,458
quality degrades and,
989
00:25:26,458 --> 00:25:28,000
you know, we're doing a shitty job
990
00:25:28,000 --> 00:25:29,291
in the end,
991
00:25:29,291 --> 00:25:31,583
breeze has to have the option
992
00:25:31,583 --> 00:25:33,125
to spin up,
993
00:25:33,125 --> 00:25:34,750
bolts backend by themselves
994
00:25:34,750 --> 00:25:36,125
and, continue to service.
995
00:25:36,125 --> 00:25:36,916
They have a pretty well
996
00:25:36,916 --> 00:25:38,125
connected lightning not already.
997
00:25:38,125 --> 00:25:40,000
So for them, for,
998
00:25:40,000 --> 00:25:41,083
for for companies
999
00:25:41,083 --> 00:25:41,833
and professionals
1000
00:25:41,833 --> 00:25:44,291
like like breeze, it's, it's
1001
00:25:44,291 --> 00:25:44,916
they can do that
1002
00:25:44,916 --> 00:25:46,375
and they have the resources
1003
00:25:46,375 --> 00:25:46,916
to do that.
1004
00:25:48,375 --> 00:25:49,208
I was also convinced
1005
00:25:49,208 --> 00:25:50,041
actually by ourselves
1006
00:25:50,041 --> 00:25:51,458
because we ourselves
1007
00:25:51,458 --> 00:25:52,750
do not use
1008
00:25:52,750 --> 00:25:54,750
any think fosters
1009
00:25:54,750 --> 00:25:56,125
for mission critical stuff.
1010
00:25:56,125 --> 00:25:56,750
Nothing. Right.
1011
00:25:56,750 --> 00:25:57,875
So everything that is somewhat
1012
00:25:57,875 --> 00:25:59,166
critical has to be open
1013
00:25:59,166 --> 00:26:00,125
source software.
1014
00:26:00,125 --> 00:26:01,125
We sometimes use the service,
1015
00:26:01,125 --> 00:26:01,666
we pay for it,
1016
00:26:01,666 --> 00:26:02,708
but we want to be able
1017
00:26:02,708 --> 00:26:03,583
to run it ourselves
1018
00:26:03,583 --> 00:26:04,208
because we don't know
1019
00:26:04,208 --> 00:26:05,166
what will happen to the service.
1020
00:26:05,166 --> 00:26:05,916
So it was really a
1021
00:26:05,916 --> 00:26:07,625
no brainer in the end.
1022
00:26:07,625 --> 00:26:10,625
So open sourcing was was step one
1023
00:26:10,708 --> 00:26:13,083
and making, and, and ensuring
1024
00:26:13,083 --> 00:26:14,708
that integrations that integrate,
1025
00:26:14,708 --> 00:26:16,708
bolts via its API, can,
1026
00:26:16,708 --> 00:26:18,166
can run the service by themselves,
1027
00:26:18,166 --> 00:26:19,750
should they have to.
1028
00:26:19,750 --> 00:26:20,541
The idea is, though,
1029
00:26:20,541 --> 00:26:21,458
that they don't
1030
00:26:21,458 --> 00:26:22,458
necessarily want to do that
1031
00:26:22,458 --> 00:26:24,041
because it's not core to their
1032
00:26:24,041 --> 00:26:24,625
their business.
1033
00:26:24,625 --> 00:26:25,750
They're actually focusing
1034
00:26:25,750 --> 00:26:26,708
on their business model.
1035
00:26:26,708 --> 00:26:27,291
They want to be good
1036
00:26:27,291 --> 00:26:27,875
in their business
1037
00:26:27,875 --> 00:26:29,208
and use yours as bolts
1038
00:26:29,208 --> 00:26:30,250
and basically have
1039
00:26:30,250 --> 00:26:33,000
just the option as a, as a backup.
1040
00:26:33,000 --> 00:26:35,708
Nevertheless, that, it inspired,
1041
00:26:35,708 --> 00:26:37,083
a couple of other technical
1042
00:26:37,083 --> 00:26:37,625
folks out there
1043
00:26:37,625 --> 00:26:38,708
to spin up their own backends.
1044
00:26:38,708 --> 00:26:40,166
So right now, as of today,
1045
00:26:40,166 --> 00:26:40,916
we have at least
1046
00:26:40,916 --> 00:26:42,083
a handful more bolts
1047
00:26:42,083 --> 00:26:44,041
backends running out there.
1048
00:26:44,041 --> 00:26:45,500
And the great thing about,
1049
00:26:45,500 --> 00:26:46,958
about this is,
1050
00:26:46,958 --> 00:26:47,833
they're all maintained
1051
00:26:47,833 --> 00:26:49,416
the same API key.
1052
00:26:49,416 --> 00:26:50,375
So basically
1053
00:26:50,375 --> 00:26:51,708
what you can do is just, you know,
1054
00:26:51,708 --> 00:26:53,666
switch the domain to someone else
1055
00:26:53,666 --> 00:26:55,583
and, you can continue operating.
1056
00:26:55,583 --> 00:26:56,250
Should bolts
1057
00:26:56,250 --> 00:26:57,583
not be to your liking anymore
1058
00:26:57,583 --> 00:26:58,916
or should you go down
1059
00:26:58,916 --> 00:27:00,083
so that that is possible
1060
00:27:00,083 --> 00:27:00,958
as of today.
1061
00:27:00,958 --> 00:27:03,958
And I'm very happy glad
1062
00:27:04,208 --> 00:27:05,083
that this happened.
1063
00:27:06,291 --> 00:27:06,958
Because now
1064
00:27:06,958 --> 00:27:07,458
I have a
1065
00:27:07,458 --> 00:27:08,416
good response to these
1066
00:27:08,416 --> 00:27:09,958
these kind of kind of questions.
1067
00:27:09,958 --> 00:27:11,583
So yes, Wild Bolts
1068
00:27:11,583 --> 00:27:13,125
itself is centralized, right?
1069
00:27:13,125 --> 00:27:14,166
It's a centralized server.
1070
00:27:14,166 --> 00:27:15,000
It's,
1071
00:27:15,000 --> 00:27:16,833
it's a user interacting with bolts
1072
00:27:16,833 --> 00:27:17,500
as a service.
1073
00:27:17,500 --> 00:27:18,625
It's,
1074
00:27:18,625 --> 00:27:19,625
an API call
1075
00:27:19,625 --> 00:27:21,291
going to a central, central server.
1076
00:27:21,291 --> 00:27:22,041
And that
1077
00:27:22,041 --> 00:27:23,500
piece itself is centralized.
1078
00:27:23,500 --> 00:27:24,666
And that's centralized for a reason,
1079
00:27:24,666 --> 00:27:26,875
because there is no good way to,
1080
00:27:26,875 --> 00:27:28,333
to centralize that.
1081
00:27:28,333 --> 00:27:28,958
As of today,
1082
00:27:28,958 --> 00:27:30,125
with the lightning and Bitcoin
1083
00:27:30,125 --> 00:27:31,750
just being, you know,
1084
00:27:31,750 --> 00:27:33,250
like how they are and,
1085
00:27:33,250 --> 00:27:34,333
and technically it's
1086
00:27:34,333 --> 00:27:35,625
just not really possible.
1087
00:27:35,625 --> 00:27:36,458
That's how it is.
1088
00:27:36,458 --> 00:27:37,375
But what we can do is
1089
00:27:37,375 --> 00:27:39,333
we can decentralize,
1090
00:27:39,333 --> 00:27:40,500
the control of the code,
1091
00:27:40,500 --> 00:27:41,916
which we open sourced and then,
1092
00:27:41,916 --> 00:27:42,375
you know,
1093
00:27:42,375 --> 00:27:43,625
have DevOps, a little bit
1094
00:27:43,625 --> 00:27:44,500
of an ecosystem
1095
00:27:44,500 --> 00:27:46,833
of, of bolts around pools.
1096
00:27:46,833 --> 00:27:48,875
Now, I absolutely love that.
1097
00:27:48,875 --> 00:27:51,125
And I actually prefer, companies
1098
00:27:51,125 --> 00:27:51,833
to be
1099
00:27:51,833 --> 00:27:52,666
for profit
1100
00:27:52,666 --> 00:27:53,583
than to be
1101
00:27:53,583 --> 00:27:55,458
like funded by charities,
1102
00:27:55,458 --> 00:27:57,333
because that, in my opinion,
1103
00:27:57,333 --> 00:28:00,125
that is, has a higher risk of being
1104
00:28:00,125 --> 00:28:01,083
like, hijacked,
1105
00:28:02,291 --> 00:28:03,125
because you don't want to
1106
00:28:03,125 --> 00:28:04,333
bite the hand that feeds you
1107
00:28:04,333 --> 00:28:07,333
because you're afraid of not getting
1108
00:28:08,250 --> 00:28:08,916
the grants, which.
1109
00:28:08,916 --> 00:28:10,583
Happens like we have seen it.
1110
00:28:10,583 --> 00:28:12,125
We have swift seen it. So, yes.
1111
00:28:12,125 --> 00:28:13,250
I wouldn't mention
1112
00:28:13,250 --> 00:28:15,125
a specific company, but,
1113
00:28:15,125 --> 00:28:16,083
I know of,
1114
00:28:16,083 --> 00:28:17,333
you know, block explorers
1115
00:28:17,333 --> 00:28:19,541
and stuff that have
1116
00:28:19,541 --> 00:28:21,666
suffered this fate lately.
1117
00:28:21,666 --> 00:28:23,375
Anyway,
1118
00:28:23,375 --> 00:28:25,625
so, so, the,
1119
00:28:25,625 --> 00:28:27,208
Or maybe I shouldn't
1120
00:28:27,208 --> 00:28:29,375
throw too many stones here.
1121
00:28:29,375 --> 00:28:32,000
But the thing is that
1122
00:28:32,000 --> 00:28:33,208
this is the way to go
1123
00:28:33,208 --> 00:28:33,833
from a, like,
1124
00:28:33,833 --> 00:28:34,375
an anarcho
1125
00:28:34,375 --> 00:28:36,875
capitalist ethics perspective.
1126
00:28:36,875 --> 00:28:38,500
Open sourcing everything
1127
00:28:38,500 --> 00:28:39,250
and just selling
1128
00:28:39,250 --> 00:28:39,875
the service
1129
00:28:39,875 --> 00:28:42,041
is the obvious ethical way
1130
00:28:42,041 --> 00:28:43,000
to go about things.
1131
00:28:43,000 --> 00:28:43,958
And it's also the
1132
00:28:43,958 --> 00:28:45,666
the way to get the market signal
1133
00:28:45,666 --> 00:28:47,250
if you're doing the right thing
1134
00:28:47,250 --> 00:28:48,000
or not,
1135
00:28:48,000 --> 00:28:50,208
because of course, information
1136
00:28:50,208 --> 00:28:51,041
should be free.
1137
00:28:51,041 --> 00:28:53,333
But the information,
1138
00:28:53,333 --> 00:28:55,125
the code is not the service
1139
00:28:55,125 --> 00:28:55,708
you're selling.
1140
00:28:55,708 --> 00:28:57,166
You're selling like the.
1141
00:28:57,166 --> 00:28:58,541
But we had to realize that,
1142
00:28:58,541 --> 00:28:58,750
you know,
1143
00:28:58,750 --> 00:29:00,041
so that that was actually
1144
00:29:00,041 --> 00:29:01,333
part of our journey was
1145
00:29:01,333 --> 00:29:02,291
and in the discussion
1146
00:29:02,291 --> 00:29:02,916
with Roy,
1147
00:29:02,916 --> 00:29:04,500
I had to realize
1148
00:29:04,500 --> 00:29:06,250
that we're not selling a service.
1149
00:29:06,250 --> 00:29:07,000
Oh, sorry,
1150
00:29:07,000 --> 00:29:08,083
not selling a software,
1151
00:29:08,083 --> 00:29:09,250
but we are selling a service.
1152
00:29:09,250 --> 00:29:10,083
We are selling
1153
00:29:10,083 --> 00:29:12,416
we're and our USP is the operations
1154
00:29:12,416 --> 00:29:13,916
that we manage our liquidity
1155
00:29:13,916 --> 00:29:15,416
well, that we have good uptime.
1156
00:29:15,416 --> 00:29:16,791
You know that things are reliable
1157
00:29:16,791 --> 00:29:17,958
and stable, rock solid.
1158
00:29:17,958 --> 00:29:19,000
That's basically what,
1159
00:29:19,000 --> 00:29:20,041
what what we are selling.
1160
00:29:20,041 --> 00:29:22,708
And not just a software itself. No.
1161
00:29:22,708 --> 00:29:23,208
And this is
1162
00:29:23,208 --> 00:29:24,250
this is what I love
1163
00:29:24,250 --> 00:29:25,833
about the free market mechanism,
1164
00:29:25,833 --> 00:29:27,875
because in the end it leads.
1165
00:29:27,875 --> 00:29:29,500
It leads intelligent people
1166
00:29:29,500 --> 00:29:31,291
to make ethical decisions
1167
00:29:31,291 --> 00:29:32,666
because it wins out,
1168
00:29:34,708 --> 00:29:35,458
especially now
1169
00:29:35,458 --> 00:29:36,708
that we have a Bitcoin
1170
00:29:36,708 --> 00:29:39,250
then that's sort of turbocharged.
1171
00:29:39,250 --> 00:29:42,125
And no, I just love it.
1172
00:29:42,125 --> 00:29:44,000
Luke,
1173
00:29:44,000 --> 00:29:45,166
I think this is the point
1174
00:29:45,166 --> 00:29:46,625
where you come in.
1175
00:29:46,625 --> 00:29:47,250
Yeah, yeah.
1176
00:29:47,250 --> 00:29:48,875
And like a lot of this stuff
1177
00:29:48,875 --> 00:29:50,416
is building
1178
00:29:50,416 --> 00:29:52,250
from from kind of my, my perspective
1179
00:29:52,250 --> 00:29:55,250
as a, as a user of bots in, in,
1180
00:29:55,416 --> 00:29:57,708
a couple of ways,
1181
00:29:57,708 --> 00:29:59,958
I guess just kind of digging into
1182
00:29:59,958 --> 00:30:00,833
some of the,
1183
00:30:00,833 --> 00:30:03,250
the experience of, of bots
1184
00:30:03,250 --> 00:30:05,291
from a user's perspective.
1185
00:30:05,291 --> 00:30:06,708
I, I have a starter question
1186
00:30:06,708 --> 00:30:07,833
because because one of the,
1187
00:30:07,833 --> 00:30:08,500
one of the ways
1188
00:30:08,500 --> 00:30:10,333
that that I use bots
1189
00:30:10,333 --> 00:30:11,916
personally is, is, yeah,
1190
00:30:11,916 --> 00:30:14,125
this this swap in and out of,
1191
00:30:14,125 --> 00:30:18,125
of lightning and that, one,
1192
00:30:18,250 --> 00:30:19,250
one practical question
1193
00:30:19,250 --> 00:30:19,750
I have is
1194
00:30:19,750 --> 00:30:20,958
what direction,
1195
00:30:20,958 --> 00:30:22,125
does, does everything
1196
00:30:22,125 --> 00:30:23,166
usually flow into.
1197
00:30:23,166 --> 00:30:23,500
Is it,
1198
00:30:23,500 --> 00:30:24,000
does it does
1199
00:30:24,000 --> 00:30:25,166
it change over time or is it,
1200
00:30:25,166 --> 00:30:28,375
is it the, going from lightning out?
1201
00:30:28,958 --> 00:30:30,000
What do you see the,
1202
00:30:30,000 --> 00:30:32,166
the most of in volts.
1203
00:30:32,166 --> 00:30:33,958
So that changed over time.
1204
00:30:33,958 --> 00:30:36,958
Not super significantly just yet.
1205
00:30:37,083 --> 00:30:38,916
But, the,
1206
00:30:38,916 --> 00:30:39,791
all the time where
1207
00:30:39,791 --> 00:30:41,291
we've been mainly focused on
1208
00:30:41,291 --> 00:30:42,875
lightning channel rebalancing, like,
1209
00:30:42,875 --> 00:30:43,708
you know, as a service
1210
00:30:43,708 --> 00:30:44,250
for lightning
1211
00:30:44,250 --> 00:30:45,083
providers,
1212
00:30:45,083 --> 00:30:46,291
we had,
1213
00:30:46,291 --> 00:30:48,125
the vast majority of,
1214
00:30:48,125 --> 00:30:49,416
of, of the swaps
1215
00:30:49,416 --> 00:30:50,583
were,
1216
00:30:50,583 --> 00:30:51,833
were going from lightning
1217
00:30:51,833 --> 00:30:52,541
to the chain,
1218
00:30:52,541 --> 00:30:53,875
meaning we were,
1219
00:30:53,875 --> 00:30:54,875
receiving lightning
1220
00:30:54,875 --> 00:30:57,458
and it was paying out, by the chain.
1221
00:30:57,458 --> 00:30:58,833
So from a from, lightning,
1222
00:30:58,833 --> 00:30:59,833
no perspective is
1223
00:30:59,833 --> 00:31:02,583
the typical get inbound liquidity,
1224
00:31:02,583 --> 00:31:03,083
use case.
1225
00:31:03,083 --> 00:31:04,958
That was the majority of the volume.
1226
00:31:04,958 --> 00:31:07,125
Now that we have more use cases,
1227
00:31:07,125 --> 00:31:08,708
going on that that's that's
1228
00:31:08,708 --> 00:31:09,416
lightning,
1229
00:31:09,416 --> 00:31:10,166
slightly changing,
1230
00:31:10,166 --> 00:31:11,166
for example, with a wallet
1231
00:31:11,166 --> 00:31:11,666
with a wallet
1232
00:31:11,666 --> 00:31:13,000
integration specifically,
1233
00:31:13,000 --> 00:31:13,666
if you look at one
1234
00:31:13,666 --> 00:31:15,291
wallet integration,
1235
00:31:15,291 --> 00:31:16,375
it's pretty balanced, actually.
1236
00:31:16,375 --> 00:31:18,125
So in and out is
1237
00:31:18,125 --> 00:31:19,666
in and out of balance.
1238
00:31:19,666 --> 00:31:21,291
So namely you have the Aqua Wallet,
1239
00:31:21,291 --> 00:31:22,125
which is a
1240
00:31:22,125 --> 00:31:23,500
pretty popular wallet by now.
1241
00:31:24,458 --> 00:31:26,791
So users are just
1242
00:31:26,791 --> 00:31:27,666
makes a lot of sense
1243
00:31:27,666 --> 00:31:28,333
if you think about it.
1244
00:31:28,333 --> 00:31:31,083
They sent in the way amount that,
1245
00:31:31,083 --> 00:31:31,333
that would
1246
00:31:31,333 --> 00:31:32,625
they deposit the same amount
1247
00:31:32,625 --> 00:31:34,458
that they're taking out.
1248
00:31:34,458 --> 00:31:36,791
So, that's also the
1249
00:31:36,791 --> 00:31:38,541
the reason why we,
1250
00:31:38,541 --> 00:31:40,083
expanding our integrations to more
1251
00:31:40,083 --> 00:31:40,750
use cases
1252
00:31:40,750 --> 00:31:41,666
in order to balance,
1253
00:31:41,666 --> 00:31:42,791
balance up the, the flow
1254
00:31:42,791 --> 00:31:44,416
a little bit because,
1255
00:31:44,416 --> 00:31:45,708
in balance flows always bad.
1256
00:31:45,708 --> 00:31:46,041
Lightning.
1257
00:31:46,041 --> 00:31:47,250
So you want to do a lot to,
1258
00:31:47,250 --> 00:31:49,916
to balance up.
1259
00:31:49,916 --> 00:31:50,125
Yeah.
1260
00:31:50,125 --> 00:31:50,583
I totally
1261
00:31:50,583 --> 00:31:52,625
I totally understand this point.
1262
00:31:52,625 --> 00:31:52,958
And I mean,
1263
00:31:52,958 --> 00:31:53,750
I mean,
1264
00:31:53,750 --> 00:31:55,166
this shouldn't come as a surprise,
1265
00:31:55,166 --> 00:31:57,375
but our specific use cases,
1266
00:31:57,375 --> 00:31:58,916
this isn't like
1267
00:31:58,916 --> 00:32:00,208
mining secret or anything.
1268
00:32:00,208 --> 00:32:00,583
We have a
1269
00:32:00,583 --> 00:32:01,416
we have a web shop
1270
00:32:01,416 --> 00:32:02,583
and we accept Bitcoin and we
1271
00:32:02,583 --> 00:32:04,666
we need lots of inbound liquidity.
1272
00:32:04,666 --> 00:32:05,166
And so
1273
00:32:05,166 --> 00:32:07,541
and so I mean, the the process
1274
00:32:07,541 --> 00:32:08,041
for that
1275
00:32:08,041 --> 00:32:09,583
that that I found really easy
1276
00:32:09,583 --> 00:32:11,375
was just make a channel to bolts
1277
00:32:11,375 --> 00:32:12,375
and then
1278
00:32:12,375 --> 00:32:13,083
basically swap
1279
00:32:13,083 --> 00:32:14,375
everything everything out.
1280
00:32:16,208 --> 00:32:17,166
Now I mean I
1281
00:32:17,166 --> 00:32:18,458
get that, that, that sort of from,
1282
00:32:18,458 --> 00:32:19,541
from your side
1283
00:32:19,541 --> 00:32:20,083
that leaves
1284
00:32:20,083 --> 00:32:22,250
a bunch of kind of liquidity,
1285
00:32:22,250 --> 00:32:24,000
kind of stuck there.
1286
00:32:24,000 --> 00:32:24,958
Right?
1287
00:32:24,958 --> 00:32:26,000
Because if you, if,
1288
00:32:26,000 --> 00:32:27,666
if someone opens a channel to you
1289
00:32:27,666 --> 00:32:30,666
and then sends all the funds to you,
1290
00:32:30,833 --> 00:32:32,166
it's not like you can leave it there
1291
00:32:32,166 --> 00:32:32,708
indefinitely.
1292
00:32:32,708 --> 00:32:34,541
You've you've got SATs locked up.
1293
00:32:34,541 --> 00:32:35,750
So have you closed that channel
1294
00:32:35,750 --> 00:32:36,833
to get get rid of that.
1295
00:32:36,833 --> 00:32:37,958
Then there goes
1296
00:32:37,958 --> 00:32:40,000
the inbound liquidity.
1297
00:32:40,000 --> 00:32:41,708
So how does that work from,
1298
00:32:41,708 --> 00:32:43,291
from a practical perspective,
1299
00:32:43,291 --> 00:32:45,333
if someone is is using this,
1300
00:32:45,333 --> 00:32:47,291
is, is this even a recommendable
1301
00:32:47,291 --> 00:32:50,291
way to, to get inbound liquidity?
1302
00:32:50,583 --> 00:32:52,250
Yeah, that's a good question.
1303
00:32:52,250 --> 00:32:54,041
So that is also evolving.
1304
00:32:54,041 --> 00:32:55,750
So all these years it was the,
1305
00:32:55,750 --> 00:32:57,416
the way to go.
1306
00:32:57,416 --> 00:32:59,291
And a lot of people did that.
1307
00:32:59,291 --> 00:33:02,208
The downside was that
1308
00:33:02,208 --> 00:33:05,250
we were sitting on a lot of capital,
1309
00:33:05,333 --> 00:33:08,166
potentially unused or especially the
1310
00:33:08,166 --> 00:33:09,541
the unused capital
1311
00:33:09,541 --> 00:33:10,083
that was sitting
1312
00:33:10,083 --> 00:33:11,375
on our side of the channel,
1313
00:33:11,375 --> 00:33:13,125
meaning our capital not moving.
1314
00:33:13,125 --> 00:33:13,750
That's always bad.
1315
00:33:13,750 --> 00:33:14,375
What do you want in the end?
1316
00:33:14,375 --> 00:33:15,458
Does this velocity. Right.
1317
00:33:15,458 --> 00:33:16,166
So we want the capital
1318
00:33:16,166 --> 00:33:17,333
to be used as efficiently
1319
00:33:17,333 --> 00:33:19,208
as, as as it gets.
1320
00:33:19,208 --> 00:33:20,250
We didn't really meant it.
1321
00:33:20,250 --> 00:33:21,333
So this might be coming
1322
00:33:21,333 --> 00:33:22,458
as a surprising fact,
1323
00:33:22,458 --> 00:33:23,833
we didn't really manage
1324
00:33:23,833 --> 00:33:25,625
much of the liquidity of our
1325
00:33:25,625 --> 00:33:27,833
of our lightning notes, in the past,
1326
00:33:27,833 --> 00:33:29,583
but we started doing so,
1327
00:33:30,916 --> 00:33:32,333
maybe since 3 or 4 months.
1328
00:33:32,333 --> 00:33:34,916
We are really actively, filtering.
1329
00:33:34,916 --> 00:33:35,833
We also built internal
1330
00:33:35,833 --> 00:33:36,375
tooling for that
1331
00:33:36,375 --> 00:33:38,291
to detect that, you know, like,
1332
00:33:38,291 --> 00:33:38,875
get alerts
1333
00:33:38,875 --> 00:33:41,875
and then also close channels where,
1334
00:33:41,958 --> 00:33:44,416
we have significant capital
1335
00:33:44,416 --> 00:33:45,666
on our side of the channel
1336
00:33:45,666 --> 00:33:47,291
that is not being used. Okay.
1337
00:33:47,291 --> 00:33:48,041
So as long as,
1338
00:33:48,041 --> 00:33:49,833
as long as you and that's,
1339
00:33:49,833 --> 00:33:50,500
that's just a hard
1340
00:33:50,500 --> 00:33:51,750
fact on lightning.
1341
00:33:51,750 --> 00:33:53,500
As the network is transitioning
1342
00:33:53,500 --> 00:33:55,458
and then my well, in my opinion
1343
00:33:55,458 --> 00:33:56,833
about full swing
1344
00:33:56,833 --> 00:33:58,000
already,
1345
00:33:58,000 --> 00:33:58,583
transitioning
1346
00:33:58,583 --> 00:34:00,791
to a more professional network,
1347
00:34:00,791 --> 00:34:02,000
we have to live with the fact
1348
00:34:02,000 --> 00:34:04,291
that unused channels, unused capital
1349
00:34:04,291 --> 00:34:05,208
channels gets closed.
1350
00:34:05,208 --> 00:34:06,750
And and that's just how it is,
1351
00:34:06,750 --> 00:34:07,208
the times
1352
00:34:07,208 --> 00:34:08,166
where you can just
1353
00:34:08,166 --> 00:34:09,583
open a channel and,
1354
00:34:09,583 --> 00:34:10,875
you know, it will be open forever.
1355
00:34:10,875 --> 00:34:12,333
And you have one Bitcoin of inbound
1356
00:34:12,333 --> 00:34:13,750
liquidity for free forever.
1357
00:34:13,750 --> 00:34:15,791
These these times are slowly
1358
00:34:15,791 --> 00:34:17,333
but surely coming to an end.
1359
00:34:17,333 --> 00:34:20,083
So right now I would not
1360
00:34:20,083 --> 00:34:21,500
recommend bulls
1361
00:34:21,500 --> 00:34:23,291
as a way to open a channel,
1362
00:34:23,291 --> 00:34:24,750
then swap yourself inbound
1363
00:34:24,750 --> 00:34:25,416
and then,
1364
00:34:25,416 --> 00:34:26,000
you know, hope
1365
00:34:26,000 --> 00:34:28,666
that it just stays there forever.
1366
00:34:28,666 --> 00:34:30,583
There are actually lsps,
1367
00:34:30,583 --> 00:34:31,541
so we're not an LSP.
1368
00:34:31,541 --> 00:34:33,875
LSP that sell this as a service.
1369
00:34:33,875 --> 00:34:35,708
So basically you pay the money
1370
00:34:35,708 --> 00:34:37,750
for the capital cost
1371
00:34:37,750 --> 00:34:38,666
to have that inbound
1372
00:34:38,666 --> 00:34:39,708
liquidity open to you.
1373
00:34:39,708 --> 00:34:41,166
So that is the way
1374
00:34:41,166 --> 00:34:42,500
I would go in the future to
1375
00:34:42,500 --> 00:34:43,916
to have that as reliable.
1376
00:34:45,666 --> 00:34:47,291
Hey there, dear listener,
1377
00:34:47,291 --> 00:34:48,125
I hate to interrupt
1378
00:34:48,125 --> 00:34:48,708
you like this
1379
00:34:48,708 --> 00:34:49,666
in the middle of the show,
1380
00:34:49,666 --> 00:34:51,291
but we'd like to tell you
1381
00:34:51,291 --> 00:34:52,833
a couple of things about,
1382
00:34:52,833 --> 00:34:54,083
for instance, the Bitcoin
1383
00:34:54,083 --> 00:34:54,916
Infinity store
1384
00:34:54,916 --> 00:34:56,750
where you can find our new book,
1385
00:34:56,750 --> 00:34:58,333
Bitcoin The Inverse of Clown World.
1386
00:34:58,333 --> 00:34:59,333
It's a great book.
1387
00:34:59,333 --> 00:35:00,208
I think you should get it
1388
00:35:00,208 --> 00:35:01,416
as soon as you can.
1389
00:35:01,416 --> 00:35:03,166
And we have some other stuff too,
1390
00:35:03,166 --> 00:35:04,083
don't we look.
1391
00:35:04,083 --> 00:35:05,000
Absolutely.
1392
00:35:05,000 --> 00:35:05,333
First,
1393
00:35:05,333 --> 00:35:06,500
I think we just like to tell you
1394
00:35:06,500 --> 00:35:08,208
about our great partners.
1395
00:35:08,208 --> 00:35:10,083
First up is beatbox.
1396
00:35:10,083 --> 00:35:11,125
They're our favorite hardware
1397
00:35:11,125 --> 00:35:12,041
wallet, super
1398
00:35:12,041 --> 00:35:13,041
easy to use,
1399
00:35:13,041 --> 00:35:14,166
and they don't compromise
1400
00:35:14,166 --> 00:35:15,833
on their security features at all.
1401
00:35:15,833 --> 00:35:17,708
So we really recommend them.
1402
00:35:17,708 --> 00:35:18,833
Check them out a bit.
1403
00:35:18,833 --> 00:35:21,541
Box dot Swiss slash infinity.
1404
00:35:21,541 --> 00:35:22,083
And by the way,
1405
00:35:22,083 --> 00:35:23,250
you can use Code Infinity
1406
00:35:23,250 --> 00:35:24,166
just about everywhere
1407
00:35:24,166 --> 00:35:25,333
in the Bitcoin space.
1408
00:35:25,333 --> 00:35:27,583
And probably you'll get a discount.
1409
00:35:27,583 --> 00:35:28,458
We'll see.
1410
00:35:28,458 --> 00:35:29,333
And the other one is
1411
00:35:29,333 --> 00:35:31,500
the stamp seed seed plate.
1412
00:35:31,500 --> 00:35:32,791
This is something that
1413
00:35:32,791 --> 00:35:34,791
has been really well received.
1414
00:35:34,791 --> 00:35:36,166
This everything divided by 21
1415
00:35:36,166 --> 00:35:37,458
million seed plate.
1416
00:35:37,458 --> 00:35:40,166
So check that out at Stamps.com.
1417
00:35:40,166 --> 00:35:40,916
You can get
1418
00:35:40,916 --> 00:35:42,291
our link in the description
1419
00:35:42,291 --> 00:35:44,083
as well for another discount.
1420
00:35:44,083 --> 00:35:45,625
And don't forget to follow us
1421
00:35:45,625 --> 00:35:48,625
on X and Noster and all other places
1422
00:35:48,625 --> 00:35:49,875
you can find on the internet.
1423
00:35:49,875 --> 00:35:50,500
Exactly.
1424
00:35:50,500 --> 00:35:51,041
In fact,
1425
00:35:51,041 --> 00:35:53,166
we're on TikTok and Instagram
1426
00:35:53,166 --> 00:35:54,041
and all these other places.
1427
00:35:54,041 --> 00:35:54,666
No, no, no,
1428
00:35:54,666 --> 00:35:55,958
look, we're not on TikTok
1429
00:35:55,958 --> 00:35:56,958
and Instagram
1430
00:35:56,958 --> 00:35:58,583
while we are on Instagram.
1431
00:35:58,583 --> 00:35:59,416
We are on TikTok.
1432
00:35:59,416 --> 00:36:00,541
Oh, we're on TikTok too.
1433
00:36:01,666 --> 00:36:03,500
Okay, well, so follow us.
1434
00:36:03,500 --> 00:36:04,250
Follow us there.
1435
00:36:04,250 --> 00:36:07,250
If you want to help spread the word.
1436
00:36:07,708 --> 00:36:09,458
Yes. Brush your teeth.
1437
00:36:09,458 --> 00:36:11,750
All right. Back to the show.
1438
00:36:11,750 --> 00:36:11,958
Yeah.
1439
00:36:11,958 --> 00:36:12,625
It's interesting
1440
00:36:12,625 --> 00:36:13,541
like lightning
1441
00:36:13,541 --> 00:36:16,541
in the sort of original sense of, of
1442
00:36:16,750 --> 00:36:18,166
open a channel and then,
1443
00:36:18,166 --> 00:36:18,875
and then you can
1444
00:36:18,875 --> 00:36:19,208
and then you
1445
00:36:19,208 --> 00:36:22,208
can split back and forth,
1446
00:36:23,166 --> 00:36:24,833
you know, batching transactions
1447
00:36:24,833 --> 00:36:25,083
and all
1448
00:36:25,083 --> 00:36:25,750
this, this,
1449
00:36:25,750 --> 00:36:26,500
this really hasn't
1450
00:36:26,500 --> 00:36:27,458
been what it's,
1451
00:36:27,458 --> 00:36:28,833
it's turned into in practice
1452
00:36:28,833 --> 00:36:30,333
over the course of of time,
1453
00:36:30,333 --> 00:36:32,458
lightning is, has turned into this
1454
00:36:32,458 --> 00:36:33,541
almost intermediate
1455
00:36:33,541 --> 00:36:35,291
layer that, that,
1456
00:36:35,291 --> 00:36:35,833
really there's
1457
00:36:35,833 --> 00:36:37,208
applications on top of it
1458
00:36:37,208 --> 00:36:39,250
that, that use lightning
1459
00:36:39,250 --> 00:36:42,208
as the, the mechanism of,
1460
00:36:42,208 --> 00:36:43,833
facilitating transactions.
1461
00:36:43,833 --> 00:36:45,083
But, but
1462
00:36:45,083 --> 00:36:47,583
not very many people have their own
1463
00:36:47,583 --> 00:36:49,083
lightning node
1464
00:36:49,083 --> 00:36:50,541
and, yeah, it's,
1465
00:36:50,541 --> 00:36:52,083
it's it's interesting that,
1466
00:36:52,083 --> 00:36:52,875
when you talk about
1467
00:36:52,875 --> 00:36:54,416
the professionalization
1468
00:36:54,416 --> 00:36:55,208
of lightning, it's,
1469
00:36:55,208 --> 00:36:55,708
it's it's
1470
00:36:55,708 --> 00:36:56,583
kind of that
1471
00:36:56,583 --> 00:36:58,958
if you even have a lightning node,
1472
00:36:58,958 --> 00:37:00,500
this is going to be such a rarity.
1473
00:37:00,500 --> 00:37:00,958
It's, it's
1474
00:37:00,958 --> 00:37:03,541
just the same kind of thing is,
1475
00:37:03,541 --> 00:37:05,416
if you make an on chain transaction,
1476
00:37:05,416 --> 00:37:05,958
that's going to be
1477
00:37:05,958 --> 00:37:07,458
a rare thing in the future.
1478
00:37:07,458 --> 00:37:08,250
And and maybe it's
1479
00:37:08,250 --> 00:37:10,416
not even that that far from now.
1480
00:37:10,416 --> 00:37:11,583
How do you see the,
1481
00:37:11,583 --> 00:37:14,166
the evolution of lightning
1482
00:37:14,166 --> 00:37:15,583
and what it's going to look like
1483
00:37:15,583 --> 00:37:17,375
in five years, ten years?
1484
00:37:18,666 --> 00:37:19,416
Yeah.
1485
00:37:19,416 --> 00:37:20,916
Let me get my crystal ball.
1486
00:37:20,916 --> 00:37:23,041
So no, I have
1487
00:37:23,041 --> 00:37:24,333
I have pretty strong opinions
1488
00:37:24,333 --> 00:37:24,958
about that actually.
1489
00:37:24,958 --> 00:37:28,416
So I, I acknowledge the transition
1490
00:37:28,416 --> 00:37:28,875
of lightning
1491
00:37:28,875 --> 00:37:31,625
to, more professional network.
1492
00:37:31,625 --> 00:37:34,625
I acknowledge the transition to,
1493
00:37:35,041 --> 00:37:36,291
of highly
1494
00:37:36,291 --> 00:37:37,083
connected, world
1495
00:37:37,083 --> 00:37:40,083
connected, professional nodes,
1496
00:37:40,416 --> 00:37:43,291
that spend significant resources
1497
00:37:43,291 --> 00:37:44,125
and time
1498
00:37:44,125 --> 00:37:45,291
and software
1499
00:37:45,291 --> 00:37:46,125
intelligence software
1500
00:37:46,125 --> 00:37:48,000
managing managing the nodes with us
1501
00:37:48,000 --> 00:37:48,625
being one of them.
1502
00:37:48,625 --> 00:37:48,958
By the way,
1503
00:37:48,958 --> 00:37:49,625
we operate
1504
00:37:49,625 --> 00:37:51,791
one of the oldest lightning nodes of
1505
00:37:51,791 --> 00:37:52,458
on the network,
1506
00:37:52,458 --> 00:37:53,375
like I think our oldest
1507
00:37:53,375 --> 00:37:54,625
channels, almost six years old.
1508
00:37:54,625 --> 00:37:56,791
We opened it in 2019.
1509
00:37:56,791 --> 00:37:58,875
So we we have significant experience
1510
00:37:58,875 --> 00:38:00,666
in operating a lightning node,
1511
00:38:00,666 --> 00:38:01,958
and I think it will be in the end.
1512
00:38:01,958 --> 00:38:03,291
It will be these kind of players
1513
00:38:03,291 --> 00:38:04,250
which will either be
1514
00:38:04,250 --> 00:38:05,083
wireless by themselves,
1515
00:38:05,083 --> 00:38:06,416
that will be exchanges
1516
00:38:06,416 --> 00:38:08,250
or other platforms that,
1517
00:38:08,250 --> 00:38:08,625
you know,
1518
00:38:08,625 --> 00:38:09,750
I'll professional a need
1519
00:38:09,750 --> 00:38:11,208
a professional lightning apprentice
1520
00:38:11,208 --> 00:38:12,541
operation in-house,
1521
00:38:12,541 --> 00:38:14,166
but the rest of the of of
1522
00:38:14,166 --> 00:38:16,208
users and retail and users,
1523
00:38:17,541 --> 00:38:18,458
I don't think that will
1524
00:38:18,458 --> 00:38:20,291
be touching lightning
1525
00:38:20,291 --> 00:38:21,583
directly in a sense.
1526
00:38:21,583 --> 00:38:22,416
So I'll take this
1527
00:38:22,416 --> 00:38:23,166
with a grain of salt,
1528
00:38:23,166 --> 00:38:24,958
because I'm obviously biased here,
1529
00:38:24,958 --> 00:38:28,083
but I think using lightning
1530
00:38:28,291 --> 00:38:30,208
in a noncustodial way in the future,
1531
00:38:30,208 --> 00:38:31,166
the only way to do
1532
00:38:31,166 --> 00:38:32,708
that is by a swaps.
1533
00:38:32,708 --> 00:38:34,875
And it probably won't be swaps
1534
00:38:34,875 --> 00:38:36,250
from liquid for forever,
1535
00:38:36,250 --> 00:38:37,791
but swaps from other layers, right?
1536
00:38:37,791 --> 00:38:39,208
So we we have a lot of other
1537
00:38:39,208 --> 00:38:41,166
interesting new layers coming up.
1538
00:38:41,166 --> 00:38:42,458
Ark being one of them.
1539
00:38:42,458 --> 00:38:44,583
So I really see this, this vision
1540
00:38:44,583 --> 00:38:45,166
of lightning
1541
00:38:45,166 --> 00:38:47,083
playing out in a way where it is
1542
00:38:47,083 --> 00:38:48,166
the transactional layer,
1543
00:38:48,166 --> 00:38:51,000
where it is the connective tissue.
1544
00:38:51,000 --> 00:38:52,416
That's how Roy always puts it
1545
00:38:52,416 --> 00:38:54,666
between the different bitcoin,
1546
00:38:54,666 --> 00:38:56,583
layers.
1547
00:38:56,583 --> 00:38:57,583
But not,
1548
00:38:57,583 --> 00:38:58,708
like I said, not people
1549
00:38:58,708 --> 00:38:59,708
running their own lightning nodes
1550
00:38:59,708 --> 00:39:00,458
and managing everything
1551
00:39:00,458 --> 00:39:01,083
by themselves.
1552
00:39:01,083 --> 00:39:02,250
So that's how I see
1553
00:39:02,250 --> 00:39:02,916
lightning evolving.
1554
00:39:02,916 --> 00:39:04,458
Yes, it's the rail between layers.
1555
00:39:04,458 --> 00:39:05,375
Yes, it's it's
1556
00:39:05,375 --> 00:39:06,416
the way to do payments
1557
00:39:06,416 --> 00:39:06,958
because lightning
1558
00:39:06,958 --> 00:39:07,666
lighting is awesome.
1559
00:39:07,666 --> 00:39:09,125
It has awesome properties.
1560
00:39:09,125 --> 00:39:10,416
You know, I'm like, for you
1561
00:39:10,416 --> 00:39:11,666
as a merchant,
1562
00:39:11,666 --> 00:39:12,333
you have instant
1563
00:39:12,333 --> 00:39:13,416
transaction finality.
1564
00:39:13,416 --> 00:39:14,583
That's just unbeatable, right?
1565
00:39:14,583 --> 00:39:16,083
So, folks pay you,
1566
00:39:16,083 --> 00:39:19,416
you can be 100% sure, be sure that
1567
00:39:19,416 --> 00:39:20,375
this is actually paid
1568
00:39:20,375 --> 00:39:21,208
and there's no
1569
00:39:21,208 --> 00:39:23,375
plaque reorg or something going on.
1570
00:39:23,375 --> 00:39:23,541
Right.
1571
00:39:23,541 --> 00:39:25,500
So you can release a good and
1572
00:39:25,500 --> 00:39:26,583
and and be fine with it.
1573
00:39:26,583 --> 00:39:28,208
So those are properties
1574
00:39:28,208 --> 00:39:30,666
that make that make lightning really
1575
00:39:32,000 --> 00:39:32,875
irreplaceable.
1576
00:39:32,875 --> 00:39:33,666
And that's why
1577
00:39:33,666 --> 00:39:35,291
I will always have its place.
1578
00:39:35,291 --> 00:39:37,000
But the way we use it
1579
00:39:37,000 --> 00:39:38,458
probably from from,
1580
00:39:38,458 --> 00:39:39,458
you know, swapping in
1581
00:39:39,458 --> 00:39:42,041
and swapping out as, as we need it.
1582
00:39:42,041 --> 00:39:42,333
Yeah.
1583
00:39:42,333 --> 00:39:43,333
This, this grain
1584
00:39:43,333 --> 00:39:44,541
of, of salt
1585
00:39:44,541 --> 00:39:45,208
you're talking about
1586
00:39:45,208 --> 00:39:46,416
to take this with.
1587
00:39:46,416 --> 00:39:49,166
I take it with a grain of salt
1588
00:39:49,166 --> 00:39:51,833
from from chef co-owner tears
1589
00:39:51,833 --> 00:39:53,250
because they are salty
1590
00:39:53,250 --> 00:39:55,208
about the whole,
1591
00:39:55,208 --> 00:39:56,708
like, the situation.
1592
00:39:56,708 --> 00:39:57,958
And this is one of the
1593
00:39:57,958 --> 00:39:59,916
main criticisms,
1594
00:39:59,916 --> 00:40:01,291
about lightning and,
1595
00:40:01,291 --> 00:40:02,625
Bitcoin's scaling in general,
1596
00:40:02,625 --> 00:40:05,041
I hear from chef corners is that,
1597
00:40:05,041 --> 00:40:06,666
lightning is totally centralized
1598
00:40:06,666 --> 00:40:08,291
and it's totally like not
1599
00:40:08,291 --> 00:40:09,958
self custodial.
1600
00:40:09,958 --> 00:40:11,041
And it's so tiresome
1601
00:40:11,041 --> 00:40:12,625
because then they go on to
1602
00:40:12,625 --> 00:40:14,916
talk about sharding or something.
1603
00:40:14,916 --> 00:40:16,333
And, and the,
1604
00:40:16,333 --> 00:40:18,458
the thing they're missing is that,
1605
00:40:18,458 --> 00:40:19,208
yeah, sure.
1606
00:40:19,208 --> 00:40:20,166
You can theoretically
1607
00:40:20,166 --> 00:40:21,875
do fractional reserve,
1608
00:40:21,875 --> 00:40:24,166
custodial lightning at some point,
1609
00:40:24,166 --> 00:40:25,458
but it's still way,
1610
00:40:25,458 --> 00:40:26,833
way, way better than banking.
1611
00:40:26,833 --> 00:40:27,875
Like you can't do it
1612
00:40:27,875 --> 00:40:29,166
to the same extent
1613
00:40:29,166 --> 00:40:30,666
as you can in the fiat system.
1614
00:40:30,666 --> 00:40:31,666
It's still a like,
1615
00:40:31,666 --> 00:40:33,250
even if the worst case scenario,
1616
00:40:33,250 --> 00:40:33,916
if volatile
1617
00:40:33,916 --> 00:40:37,666
Satoshi decides to give out paper
1618
00:40:37,666 --> 00:40:39,666
bitcoin to 10% of the users
1619
00:40:39,666 --> 00:40:41,500
or something, they can't do it.
1620
00:40:41,500 --> 00:40:44,250
It doesn't scale the way fiat does
1621
00:40:44,250 --> 00:40:44,791
where
1622
00:40:44,791 --> 00:40:48,291
where you can create like 99.9%
1623
00:40:48,291 --> 00:40:49,291
of all the currency
1624
00:40:49,291 --> 00:40:51,583
and circulation is just conjured up
1625
00:40:51,583 --> 00:40:52,416
the same there.
1626
00:40:52,416 --> 00:40:53,708
Like you can't do that.
1627
00:40:53,708 --> 00:40:55,416
So like it's still
1628
00:40:55,416 --> 00:40:56,708
it's still such an upgrade
1629
00:40:56,708 --> 00:40:57,625
for humanity.
1630
00:40:57,625 --> 00:40:59,208
So they're like missing
1631
00:40:59,208 --> 00:41:00,750
the point in my opinion. And
1632
00:41:01,958 --> 00:41:02,416
Yeah.
1633
00:41:02,416 --> 00:41:03,541
What what are your thoughts?
1634
00:41:03,541 --> 00:41:06,958
I think there are viable ways
1635
00:41:06,958 --> 00:41:09,125
how with a good UX,
1636
00:41:09,125 --> 00:41:10,166
a really good UX,
1637
00:41:10,166 --> 00:41:10,708
how we can use
1638
00:41:10,708 --> 00:41:11,541
lightning in the future,
1639
00:41:11,541 --> 00:41:12,666
being non-custodial. Right.
1640
00:41:12,666 --> 00:41:13,500
So that's the situation
1641
00:41:13,500 --> 00:41:14,250
right now, today.
1642
00:41:14,250 --> 00:41:15,208
And I
1643
00:41:15,208 --> 00:41:17,333
also don't see it that critical.
1644
00:41:17,333 --> 00:41:18,958
But I, I'm very hopeful
1645
00:41:18,958 --> 00:41:20,416
and very positive
1646
00:41:20,416 --> 00:41:21,500
about the future of the,
1647
00:41:21,500 --> 00:41:22,708
of the non
1648
00:41:22,708 --> 00:41:24,583
custodial future of lightning.
1649
00:41:24,583 --> 00:41:26,791
And the main underlying primitives
1650
00:41:26,791 --> 00:41:28,791
being what.
1651
00:41:28,791 --> 00:41:29,125
Yeah.
1652
00:41:29,125 --> 00:41:29,875
I had
1653
00:41:29,875 --> 00:41:31,333
I bought some,
1654
00:41:31,333 --> 00:41:34,333
inbound liquidity yesterday,
1655
00:41:35,041 --> 00:41:38,041
for my newly set up I'll be hub,
1656
00:41:38,041 --> 00:41:39,750
running.
1657
00:41:39,750 --> 00:41:40,583
So I run
1658
00:41:40,583 --> 00:41:43,583
bitcoin knots and L and D and
1659
00:41:43,791 --> 00:41:45,625
I'll be hub on my start nine here.
1660
00:41:45,625 --> 00:41:46,333
And like, I'm
1661
00:41:46,333 --> 00:41:47,791
not very it tech savvy,
1662
00:41:47,791 --> 00:41:49,708
but I'm, I'm fiddling around with it
1663
00:41:49,708 --> 00:41:51,333
and like seeing what I
1664
00:41:51,333 --> 00:41:52,958
can do and I enjoy it.
1665
00:41:53,958 --> 00:41:56,541
And I'll be is one of those,
1666
00:41:56,541 --> 00:41:57,625
like things services
1667
00:41:57,625 --> 00:41:59,666
that are sort of forcing people
1668
00:41:59,666 --> 00:42:01,708
to become more technical with it.
1669
00:42:01,708 --> 00:42:03,125
Yeah. And I love that.
1670
00:42:03,125 --> 00:42:04,625
Like they're steering you
1671
00:42:04,625 --> 00:42:07,166
in the right direction.
1672
00:42:07,166 --> 00:42:07,583
Yes.
1673
00:42:07,583 --> 00:42:08,666
So the
1674
00:42:08,666 --> 00:42:10,166
that they are discontinuing
1675
00:42:10,166 --> 00:42:11,416
completely discontinuing
1676
00:42:11,416 --> 00:42:12,875
the custodial product
1677
00:42:12,875 --> 00:42:13,750
is, is,
1678
00:42:13,750 --> 00:42:15,291
is it's the right thing
1679
00:42:15,291 --> 00:42:16,875
to do from a company's perspective
1680
00:42:16,875 --> 00:42:17,791
because they just don't
1681
00:42:17,791 --> 00:42:18,875
want to have custody.
1682
00:42:18,875 --> 00:42:20,458
I certainly wouldn't want that
1683
00:42:20,458 --> 00:42:21,541
right now.
1684
00:42:21,541 --> 00:42:23,416
That's that's also part by the way.
1685
00:42:23,416 --> 00:42:25,083
So it's not only bitcoin
1686
00:42:25,083 --> 00:42:27,291
ethos and our personal ethics
1687
00:42:27,291 --> 00:42:28,625
that, that we are
1688
00:42:28,625 --> 00:42:29,708
putting so much focus on
1689
00:42:29,708 --> 00:42:30,875
both being non-custodial,
1690
00:42:30,875 --> 00:42:32,708
but also from a legal standpoint,
1691
00:42:32,708 --> 00:42:33,958
as we have learned and learned
1692
00:42:33,958 --> 00:42:35,708
in the past couple of years.
1693
00:42:35,708 --> 00:42:37,166
It's probably a good idea to,
1694
00:42:37,166 --> 00:42:39,083
to not have custody over of a user.
1695
00:42:39,083 --> 00:42:40,208
So and I think that's also part of
1696
00:42:40,208 --> 00:42:41,458
the motivation of algorithm.
1697
00:42:42,708 --> 00:42:43,416
Absolutely.
1698
00:42:43,416 --> 00:42:44,708
Because
1699
00:42:44,708 --> 00:42:46,041
it's only when you do that
1700
00:42:46,041 --> 00:42:46,916
you are really
1701
00:42:46,916 --> 00:42:48,666
a financial company, isn't it?
1702
00:42:48,666 --> 00:42:49,750
Or a bank or something
1703
00:42:49,750 --> 00:42:51,666
like if you don't ever touch
1704
00:42:51,666 --> 00:42:53,916
people's funds then
1705
00:42:53,916 --> 00:42:54,583
then again,
1706
00:42:54,583 --> 00:42:56,041
I mean, attacks can come in
1707
00:42:56,041 --> 00:42:57,333
either way, like
1708
00:42:57,333 --> 00:42:59,500
The Pirate Bay was a link provider,
1709
00:42:59,500 --> 00:43:00,208
nothing else.
1710
00:43:00,208 --> 00:43:00,666
And they
1711
00:43:00,666 --> 00:43:02,125
they got in legal trouble for that.
1712
00:43:02,125 --> 00:43:04,083
So I guess that the risks are always
1713
00:43:04,083 --> 00:43:05,708
there as long as the motivation
1714
00:43:05,708 --> 00:43:06,875
for the assholes are.
1715
00:43:06,875 --> 00:43:08,875
But but still.
1716
00:43:08,875 --> 00:43:10,000
Yeah, I understand that
1717
00:43:10,000 --> 00:43:12,000
motivation perfectly well.
1718
00:43:12,000 --> 00:43:12,291
Yeah.
1719
00:43:12,291 --> 00:43:13,166
And I also believe
1720
00:43:13,166 --> 00:43:14,750
in, in our world,
1721
00:43:14,750 --> 00:43:17,625
transitioning towards a world,
1722
00:43:17,625 --> 00:43:18,291
unfortunately,
1723
00:43:18,291 --> 00:43:19,708
probably a two tiered world.
1724
00:43:19,708 --> 00:43:20,291
A world
1725
00:43:20,291 --> 00:43:21,583
where you have places
1726
00:43:21,583 --> 00:43:24,583
where you can be sure you're a safe,
1727
00:43:24,875 --> 00:43:25,958
offering a service
1728
00:43:25,958 --> 00:43:27,375
that is doing nothing illegally
1729
00:43:27,375 --> 00:43:29,250
and not having control over
1730
00:43:29,250 --> 00:43:30,208
for customer funds
1731
00:43:30,208 --> 00:43:32,083
is the defining factor.
1732
00:43:32,083 --> 00:43:33,416
And then there will be another world
1733
00:43:33,416 --> 00:43:34,708
where all just does matter.
1734
00:43:34,708 --> 00:43:35,916
And if they want to, you know,
1735
00:43:37,041 --> 00:43:37,708
basically
1736
00:43:37,708 --> 00:43:39,125
legislation through
1737
00:43:39,125 --> 00:43:40,833
there, through enforcement.
1738
00:43:40,833 --> 00:43:42,250
But that's just really not the world
1739
00:43:42,250 --> 00:43:45,208
I want to live in.
1740
00:43:45,208 --> 00:43:45,458
Now.
1741
00:43:45,458 --> 00:43:46,291
And I mean, the
1742
00:43:46,291 --> 00:43:46,666
I think,
1743
00:43:46,666 --> 00:43:47,958
I think the thing is here is
1744
00:43:47,958 --> 00:43:50,041
that is that,
1745
00:43:50,041 --> 00:43:52,125
lightning like anything on Bitcoin
1746
00:43:52,125 --> 00:43:53,041
is, is,
1747
00:43:53,041 --> 00:43:54,541
like a matter of, of degrees.
1748
00:43:54,541 --> 00:43:55,833
But I think like what I said
1749
00:43:55,833 --> 00:43:56,666
earlier is that, is
1750
00:43:56,666 --> 00:43:57,875
that it's all better
1751
00:43:57,875 --> 00:43:59,291
than, than the fiat system
1752
00:43:59,291 --> 00:44:00,791
just getting some kind of exposure
1753
00:44:00,791 --> 00:44:02,250
to Bitcoin somehow.
1754
00:44:02,250 --> 00:44:03,458
And, and of course,
1755
00:44:03,458 --> 00:44:04,458
if you use a third party
1756
00:44:04,458 --> 00:44:05,416
or have a custodian
1757
00:44:05,416 --> 00:44:07,208
or have some intermediary,
1758
00:44:07,208 --> 00:44:07,750
there's there's
1759
00:44:07,750 --> 00:44:08,875
some kind of risk there.
1760
00:44:08,875 --> 00:44:10,000
But at the end of the day,
1761
00:44:10,000 --> 00:44:13,000
having some amount of satoshis
1762
00:44:13,041 --> 00:44:13,666
somewhere
1763
00:44:13,666 --> 00:44:14,833
is better than having
1764
00:44:14,833 --> 00:44:16,875
no satoshis anywhere.
1765
00:44:16,875 --> 00:44:18,083
And, and and so, I mean,
1766
00:44:18,083 --> 00:44:20,250
I like this I like this trend.
1767
00:44:20,250 --> 00:44:21,416
And I mean, I think
1768
00:44:21,416 --> 00:44:24,750
all all, some of all advocates for,
1769
00:44:25,416 --> 00:44:26,250
for, for bitcoin
1770
00:44:26,250 --> 00:44:27,708
generally can can do
1771
00:44:27,708 --> 00:44:29,041
is, is encourage people
1772
00:44:29,041 --> 00:44:30,041
to get as deep into that
1773
00:44:30,041 --> 00:44:31,083
stack as possible.
1774
00:44:31,083 --> 00:44:32,166
But eventually
1775
00:44:32,166 --> 00:44:32,750
it is
1776
00:44:32,750 --> 00:44:33,666
just going to get to the
1777
00:44:33,666 --> 00:44:34,208
to the point
1778
00:44:34,208 --> 00:44:36,125
where the, the amounts of satoshis
1779
00:44:36,125 --> 00:44:37,458
that people can acquire
1780
00:44:37,458 --> 00:44:38,083
aren't going
1781
00:44:38,083 --> 00:44:40,208
to, for example, enable,
1782
00:44:40,208 --> 00:44:41,833
sending the on chain transaction
1783
00:44:41,833 --> 00:44:43,416
to open a lightning channel
1784
00:44:43,416 --> 00:44:46,416
to make payments in the the South,
1785
00:44:47,166 --> 00:44:49,833
and the, the self-sovereign way.
1786
00:44:49,833 --> 00:44:50,541
And so
1787
00:44:50,541 --> 00:44:51,708
then it's going to start
1788
00:44:51,708 --> 00:44:54,583
to get into other things,
1789
00:44:54,583 --> 00:44:55,958
other solutions
1790
00:44:55,958 --> 00:44:57,750
to, to enable people to do this,
1791
00:44:57,750 --> 00:44:58,958
whether it's,
1792
00:44:58,958 --> 00:45:01,625
yeah, sending, sending Bitcoin to,
1793
00:45:01,625 --> 00:45:03,500
to some kind of,
1794
00:45:03,500 --> 00:45:06,125
lightning provider or whatever,
1795
00:45:06,125 --> 00:45:08,250
whatever that, that looks like,
1796
00:45:08,250 --> 00:45:10,291
or it's using,
1797
00:45:10,291 --> 00:45:11,916
things like liquid,
1798
00:45:11,916 --> 00:45:13,166
these other layer twos
1799
00:45:13,166 --> 00:45:13,875
that you've mentioned.
1800
00:45:13,875 --> 00:45:15,291
But, but liquid is kind of the,
1801
00:45:15,291 --> 00:45:16,625
the interesting what I'm,
1802
00:45:17,791 --> 00:45:19,291
I really started to use
1803
00:45:19,291 --> 00:45:21,291
bolts, actually, when, when,
1804
00:45:21,291 --> 00:45:24,291
when the liquid support came in and.
1805
00:45:24,666 --> 00:45:27,208
Yeah, I remember the three of us
1806
00:45:27,208 --> 00:45:28,708
were, were in Riga.
1807
00:45:28,708 --> 00:45:29,125
We had a,
1808
00:45:29,125 --> 00:45:30,000
we had a conversation
1809
00:45:30,000 --> 00:45:30,958
two years ago in Riga,
1810
00:45:30,958 --> 00:45:31,708
and it was shortly
1811
00:45:31,708 --> 00:45:32,458
after or
1812
00:45:32,458 --> 00:45:33,875
after the liquid swaps
1813
00:45:33,875 --> 00:45:35,833
had had really started to come in.
1814
00:45:35,833 --> 00:45:37,125
And, this is all
1815
00:45:37,125 --> 00:45:38,750
the kind of the peak of all this.
1816
00:45:38,750 --> 00:45:41,041
And it was really interesting,
1817
00:45:41,041 --> 00:45:41,458
to me.
1818
00:45:41,458 --> 00:45:42,833
But let's use liquid
1819
00:45:42,833 --> 00:45:46,750
as this this way around the, the,
1820
00:45:47,333 --> 00:45:49,208
the spam issue, basically.
1821
00:45:49,208 --> 00:45:51,000
And what are your thoughts
1822
00:45:51,000 --> 00:45:52,708
on, on the use of liquid
1823
00:45:52,708 --> 00:45:54,416
generally in terms of,
1824
00:45:54,416 --> 00:45:54,833
in terms
1825
00:45:54,833 --> 00:45:55,458
of basically
1826
00:45:55,458 --> 00:45:58,458
this, this layer to, to off load
1827
00:45:58,708 --> 00:46:01,625
the on chain dynamics,
1828
00:46:01,625 --> 00:46:03,250
and, and kind of get rid of that,
1829
00:46:04,500 --> 00:46:05,708
not so much risk, but,
1830
00:46:05,708 --> 00:46:08,708
but that externality and, and just
1831
00:46:08,916 --> 00:46:10,916
keep transacting with, with Bitcoin,
1832
00:46:10,916 --> 00:46:11,750
using it with lightning,
1833
00:46:11,750 --> 00:46:12,416
using it with like
1834
00:46:12,416 --> 00:46:13,833
what do you think of that?
1835
00:46:13,833 --> 00:46:14,791
I think that's the way to go.
1836
00:46:14,791 --> 00:46:16,833
So, maintain
1837
00:46:16,833 --> 00:46:17,708
blocked blog
1838
00:46:17,708 --> 00:46:20,375
space is just one of the
1839
00:46:20,375 --> 00:46:21,916
you made these scarcest resource
1840
00:46:21,916 --> 00:46:22,708
next to the kind of stuff
1841
00:46:22,708 --> 00:46:23,583
that we have on the planet,
1842
00:46:23,583 --> 00:46:25,291
so we should treat it as such.
1843
00:46:25,291 --> 00:46:27,208
So even though right now
1844
00:46:27,208 --> 00:46:28,375
some of us might be forgetting
1845
00:46:28,375 --> 00:46:28,791
about this
1846
00:46:28,791 --> 00:46:31,000
because fees are relatively low,
1847
00:46:31,000 --> 00:46:32,500
I think it's crucially important
1848
00:46:32,500 --> 00:46:36,000
that we keep in mind, that building,
1849
00:46:36,000 --> 00:46:38,166
anything that relies on Bitcoin
1850
00:46:38,166 --> 00:46:38,791
mentioned block
1851
00:46:38,791 --> 00:46:40,291
space is prone to fail.
1852
00:46:40,291 --> 00:46:40,583
Right?
1853
00:46:40,583 --> 00:46:42,291
So, that's, that's
1854
00:46:42,291 --> 00:46:43,750
that's what you should have in mind.
1855
00:46:43,750 --> 00:46:45,958
So using the main chain
1856
00:46:45,958 --> 00:46:47,041
for something like
1857
00:46:47,041 --> 00:46:47,791
lightning channel
1858
00:46:47,791 --> 00:46:50,125
rebalancing thing is just
1859
00:46:50,125 --> 00:46:52,000
not the way to go.
1860
00:46:52,000 --> 00:46:52,833
And I might even go
1861
00:46:52,833 --> 00:46:53,625
further than that
1862
00:46:53,625 --> 00:46:55,416
by using the Bitcoin main chain
1863
00:46:55,416 --> 00:46:57,583
might not even be the preferred way
1864
00:46:57,583 --> 00:46:59,541
to anchor lightning channel itself.
1865
00:46:59,541 --> 00:46:59,833
Right?
1866
00:46:59,833 --> 00:47:00,916
So, if you're looking
1867
00:47:00,916 --> 00:47:02,583
at a couple of years down the road,
1868
00:47:02,583 --> 00:47:03,875
we might also want to
1869
00:47:03,875 --> 00:47:05,333
have most of the usage.
1870
00:47:05,333 --> 00:47:06,500
So don't get me wrong,
1871
00:47:06,500 --> 00:47:07,333
the maintained Lightning
1872
00:47:07,333 --> 00:47:07,958
network will not
1873
00:47:07,958 --> 00:47:09,000
disappear, will stay there.
1874
00:47:09,000 --> 00:47:09,750
It has its place.
1875
00:47:10,708 --> 00:47:13,041
But, it might be a good idea
1876
00:47:13,041 --> 00:47:13,958
to actually anchor
1877
00:47:13,958 --> 00:47:15,541
lightning itself on to another layer
1878
00:47:15,541 --> 00:47:16,833
to specifically Ark.
1879
00:47:16,833 --> 00:47:18,500
I'm very hopeful on
1880
00:47:18,500 --> 00:47:19,416
and very positive
1881
00:47:19,416 --> 00:47:20,583
about anchoring lightning.
1882
00:47:20,583 --> 00:47:21,625
Like I gave a
1883
00:47:21,625 --> 00:47:22,833
I gave a talk about this in
1884
00:47:22,833 --> 00:47:23,166
the future
1885
00:47:23,166 --> 00:47:24,916
was actually pretty, pretty cool.
1886
00:47:24,916 --> 00:47:26,458
In adopting bitcoin,
1887
00:47:26,458 --> 00:47:27,291
to two weeks ago,
1888
00:47:27,291 --> 00:47:28,916
one and half weeks ago.
1889
00:47:28,916 --> 00:47:30,500
So those are all ways
1890
00:47:30,500 --> 00:47:32,083
how we can make ourselves
1891
00:47:32,083 --> 00:47:33,708
more independent,
1892
00:47:33,708 --> 00:47:35,166
from, from the Bitcoin mentioned.
1893
00:47:35,166 --> 00:47:37,041
And that's an absolute necessity.
1894
00:47:37,041 --> 00:47:38,166
So the Bitcoin mania
1895
00:47:38,166 --> 00:47:38,791
or the bitcoin
1896
00:47:38,791 --> 00:47:39,583
on the bitcoin mentioned
1897
00:47:39,583 --> 00:47:40,958
really have to fulfill
1898
00:47:40,958 --> 00:47:42,750
this, this, this one purpose
1899
00:47:42,750 --> 00:47:44,250
of being the source of truth. Right.
1900
00:47:44,250 --> 00:47:45,500
So I have this
1901
00:47:45,500 --> 00:47:46,958
trip to graphically verified
1902
00:47:46,958 --> 00:47:48,125
1 to 1 relationship
1903
00:47:48,125 --> 00:47:49,083
between whatever layer
1904
00:47:49,083 --> 00:47:50,000
and even the layer three
1905
00:47:50,000 --> 00:47:51,166
or whatever is built on top.
1906
00:47:51,166 --> 00:47:52,291
So let's say lightning on August,
1907
00:47:52,291 --> 00:47:53,625
layer three is an arc.
1908
00:47:53,625 --> 00:47:54,500
All has to trickle down
1909
00:47:54,500 --> 00:47:55,625
to the same amount of Bitcoin,
1910
00:47:55,625 --> 00:47:56,708
so we can make sure there's
1911
00:47:56,708 --> 00:47:58,125
not more than 21 million,
1912
00:47:59,083 --> 00:47:59,875
that that is
1913
00:47:59,875 --> 00:48:00,875
that is the main purpose
1914
00:48:00,875 --> 00:48:03,000
but not every transaction
1915
00:48:03,000 --> 00:48:03,541
on the main channel
1916
00:48:03,541 --> 00:48:04,666
that can be avoided
1917
00:48:04,666 --> 00:48:05,583
should be avoided.
1918
00:48:05,583 --> 00:48:06,333
And liquid right now
1919
00:48:06,333 --> 00:48:07,791
is just the place to go.
1920
00:48:07,791 --> 00:48:09,875
Because it is rock solid,
1921
00:48:09,875 --> 00:48:11,625
it is up and operational
1922
00:48:11,625 --> 00:48:13,083
without any major hiccups.
1923
00:48:13,083 --> 00:48:14,791
Since 2018
1924
00:48:14,791 --> 00:48:16,583
it is a Bitcoin core fork.
1925
00:48:16,583 --> 00:48:17,375
So running
1926
00:48:17,375 --> 00:48:19,208
this is really easy
1927
00:48:19,208 --> 00:48:20,708
for anyone that knows
1928
00:48:20,708 --> 00:48:21,958
you could do it right.
1929
00:48:21,958 --> 00:48:23,666
So,
1930
00:48:23,666 --> 00:48:26,000
for, for, for corporate,
1931
00:48:26,000 --> 00:48:27,208
for a corporation to run this
1932
00:48:27,208 --> 00:48:28,166
and to even integrate it
1933
00:48:28,166 --> 00:48:29,458
as a foreign exchange
1934
00:48:29,458 --> 00:48:30,083
to integrate it.
1935
00:48:30,083 --> 00:48:31,458
It's it's that easy.
1936
00:48:31,458 --> 00:48:32,666
That is unsurprising
1937
00:48:32,666 --> 00:48:34,166
that the don't do that.
1938
00:48:34,166 --> 00:48:34,916
Because,
1939
00:48:34,916 --> 00:48:36,000
from a technical perspective,
1940
00:48:36,000 --> 00:48:37,625
it's literally zero effort.
1941
00:48:37,625 --> 00:48:39,958
It's really just managing the, the,
1942
00:48:39,958 --> 00:48:42,833
the liquid, the balances.
1943
00:48:42,833 --> 00:48:43,333
So yeah.
1944
00:48:43,333 --> 00:48:46,333
So it's, it's, it's, it's it's very
1945
00:48:46,333 --> 00:48:49,083
everything is stable and familiar.
1946
00:48:49,083 --> 00:48:50,041
And that's why
1947
00:48:50,041 --> 00:48:50,916
the moment it is,
1948
00:48:50,916 --> 00:48:51,875
it is the place to go.
1949
00:48:51,875 --> 00:48:53,375
But, no doubt that there
1950
00:48:53,375 --> 00:48:54,916
will be other interesting,
1951
00:48:55,875 --> 00:48:58,875
layers and places that
1952
00:48:59,166 --> 00:48:59,791
can absorb,
1953
00:48:59,791 --> 00:49:02,208
maintain activity in the future.
1954
00:49:02,208 --> 00:49:02,583
Yeah.
1955
00:49:02,583 --> 00:49:04,208
And, well and liquid
1956
00:49:04,208 --> 00:49:05,625
and I, I agree with you.
1957
00:49:05,625 --> 00:49:07,291
The, the usability of liquid is
1958
00:49:07,291 --> 00:49:08,833
is fantastic.
1959
00:49:08,833 --> 00:49:09,625
I mean,
1960
00:49:09,625 --> 00:49:11,375
you can do other things with liquid.
1961
00:49:11,375 --> 00:49:12,125
And I understand that
1962
00:49:12,125 --> 00:49:13,416
this is one of the purposes
1963
00:49:13,416 --> 00:49:14,250
that there are other
1964
00:49:14,250 --> 00:49:15,250
tokens and stuff.
1965
00:49:15,250 --> 00:49:17,000
And of course, there's a,
1966
00:49:17,000 --> 00:49:18,208
centralization to it.
1967
00:49:18,208 --> 00:49:19,083
But at the end of the day,
1968
00:49:19,083 --> 00:49:20,500
it's it's a it's a 1 to 1 peg
1969
00:49:20,500 --> 00:49:22,125
with the Bitcoin underneath it.
1970
00:49:22,125 --> 00:49:25,041
And, and so as far as I'm concerned
1971
00:49:25,041 --> 00:49:25,958
this is actually to,
1972
00:49:25,958 --> 00:49:27,500
to your point about,
1973
00:49:27,500 --> 00:49:28,833
getting as many transactions
1974
00:49:28,833 --> 00:49:29,458
off the base
1975
00:49:29,458 --> 00:49:30,458
chain as possible
1976
00:49:30,458 --> 00:49:31,625
that I completely agree
1977
00:49:31,625 --> 00:49:32,583
with because,
1978
00:49:32,583 --> 00:49:34,291
I, I gave a talk a few weeks back
1979
00:49:34,291 --> 00:49:36,125
about that basically,
1980
00:49:36,125 --> 00:49:36,833
the, the,
1981
00:49:36,833 --> 00:49:38,375
the gist of, of what I was saying
1982
00:49:38,375 --> 00:49:39,291
was that
1983
00:49:39,291 --> 00:49:40,625
everyone has an allotment of
1984
00:49:40,625 --> 00:49:42,125
about two transactions
1985
00:49:42,125 --> 00:49:42,750
over the course
1986
00:49:42,750 --> 00:49:44,375
of their entire lifetime.
1987
00:49:44,375 --> 00:49:45,666
If we're talking the number
1988
00:49:45,666 --> 00:49:46,625
of transactions
1989
00:49:46,625 --> 00:49:47,916
that will be in the blocks
1990
00:49:47,916 --> 00:49:49,500
over the course of a human lifetime,
1991
00:49:49,500 --> 00:49:50,166
about 70 years
1992
00:49:50,166 --> 00:49:50,708
or something like that,
1993
00:49:50,708 --> 00:49:51,833
we get about two.
1994
00:49:51,833 --> 00:49:52,958
And that's not counting
1995
00:49:52,958 --> 00:49:53,875
the human population
1996
00:49:53,875 --> 00:49:54,541
changes or something.
1997
00:49:54,541 --> 00:49:55,458
Shut up. Community.
1998
00:49:55,458 --> 00:49:55,791
Yeah.
1999
00:49:55,791 --> 00:49:57,333
But this is with the 8.5
2000
00:49:57,333 --> 00:49:58,708
billion people. That's.
2001
00:49:58,708 --> 00:49:59,791
What did I just say?
2002
00:49:59,791 --> 00:50:00,666
Yeah. Yeah. Sorry.
2003
00:50:02,250 --> 00:50:03,083
Don't worry about this.
2004
00:50:03,083 --> 00:50:05,708
And the the friendly banter is we
2005
00:50:05,708 --> 00:50:06,416
we love it.
2006
00:50:06,416 --> 00:50:06,708
Yeah.
2007
00:50:06,708 --> 00:50:08,041
I force Luke to edit it out,
2008
00:50:08,041 --> 00:50:09,750
so it's fine. Yeah. Basically.
2009
00:50:09,750 --> 00:50:11,583
No, no. Okay.
2010
00:50:11,583 --> 00:50:12,208
Returning to.
2011
00:50:12,208 --> 00:50:13,166
So you get about you
2012
00:50:13,166 --> 00:50:16,166
get about two, two transactions and,
2013
00:50:17,041 --> 00:50:17,500
Yeah, that
2014
00:50:17,500 --> 00:50:18,208
that's just, that's
2015
00:50:18,208 --> 00:50:19,583
just not going to, to scale.
2016
00:50:19,583 --> 00:50:21,250
Basically it is going to be through
2017
00:50:21,250 --> 00:50:22,833
through layers that we scale and,
2018
00:50:22,833 --> 00:50:24,333
and also the other side of that,
2019
00:50:24,333 --> 00:50:26,666
that that topic was
2020
00:50:26,666 --> 00:50:27,583
spam is not good.
2021
00:50:27,583 --> 00:50:28,958
And let's try to avoid
2022
00:50:28,958 --> 00:50:30,541
that as well, please.
2023
00:50:30,541 --> 00:50:32,125
But but in terms of,
2024
00:50:32,125 --> 00:50:33,750
in terms of liquid
2025
00:50:33,750 --> 00:50:34,208
being this
2026
00:50:34,208 --> 00:50:34,958
1 to 1 peg,
2027
00:50:34,958 --> 00:50:36,458
you can trust that you've got
2028
00:50:36,458 --> 00:50:38,416
the you've got the bitcoin
2029
00:50:38,416 --> 00:50:41,416
and you've got the, you've got the
2030
00:50:42,125 --> 00:50:43,166
on the other side,
2031
00:50:43,166 --> 00:50:45,250
you have that exact same number.
2032
00:50:45,250 --> 00:50:46,041
And of course you have to,
2033
00:50:46,041 --> 00:50:47,291
to trust a third party.
2034
00:50:47,291 --> 00:50:47,833
But then,
2035
00:50:47,833 --> 00:50:48,208
but then
2036
00:50:48,208 --> 00:50:49,458
the thing is really quite smooth.
2037
00:50:49,458 --> 00:50:50,833
It's it's a
2038
00:50:50,833 --> 00:50:52,083
transaction, sorry,
2039
00:50:52,083 --> 00:50:53,958
a block per minute.
2040
00:50:53,958 --> 00:50:55,416
And this, this brings me
2041
00:50:55,416 --> 00:50:56,000
to kind of the,
2042
00:50:56,000 --> 00:50:57,125
the UX of
2043
00:50:57,125 --> 00:50:59,250
of using these these swaps
2044
00:50:59,250 --> 00:51:00,333
and these payments.
2045
00:51:00,333 --> 00:51:01,208
I think this is really
2046
00:51:01,208 --> 00:51:03,125
the only actual downside
2047
00:51:03,125 --> 00:51:04,541
with, with using a swap
2048
00:51:04,541 --> 00:51:07,250
based system. I use Aqua Wallet.
2049
00:51:08,250 --> 00:51:08,791
It's turned
2050
00:51:08,791 --> 00:51:11,791
into my, my go to wallet because,
2051
00:51:12,666 --> 00:51:14,708
and not for any specific reason,
2052
00:51:14,708 --> 00:51:15,666
but it's the,
2053
00:51:15,666 --> 00:51:17,041
the main thing is that I can,
2054
00:51:17,041 --> 00:51:17,708
I can just
2055
00:51:17,708 --> 00:51:19,166
swap for my liquid balance
2056
00:51:19,166 --> 00:51:20,708
into my aqua wallet,
2057
00:51:20,708 --> 00:51:22,916
and then I can pay for stuff
2058
00:51:22,916 --> 00:51:24,125
over the lightning rails,
2059
00:51:24,125 --> 00:51:25,083
over the liquid rails.
2060
00:51:25,083 --> 00:51:26,166
I can accept the Bitcoin.
2061
00:51:26,166 --> 00:51:28,083
It's it's it's great.
2062
00:51:28,083 --> 00:51:29,083
The entire thing.
2063
00:51:29,083 --> 00:51:30,291
The only downside is
2064
00:51:30,291 --> 00:51:31,833
that it's a bit slower
2065
00:51:31,833 --> 00:51:33,208
than other Bitcoin wallets.
2066
00:51:33,208 --> 00:51:35,166
Sometimes it takes 30s,
2067
00:51:35,166 --> 00:51:36,208
sometimes it takes a minute,
2068
00:51:36,208 --> 00:51:37,125
sometimes it takes it's
2069
00:51:37,125 --> 00:51:38,041
I think it takes
2070
00:51:38,041 --> 00:51:38,875
longer than a minute
2071
00:51:38,875 --> 00:51:40,625
sometimes for the transaction
2072
00:51:40,625 --> 00:51:41,041
to go through.
2073
00:51:41,041 --> 00:51:42,000
And so it's not quite
2074
00:51:42,000 --> 00:51:43,708
this lightning fast
2075
00:51:43,708 --> 00:51:45,333
pun sort of intended
2076
00:51:45,333 --> 00:51:47,833
as, as going from a wallet
2077
00:51:47,833 --> 00:51:48,458
of Satoshi
2078
00:51:48,458 --> 00:51:49,291
to a blank wallet
2079
00:51:49,291 --> 00:51:50,583
or something like that,
2080
00:51:50,583 --> 00:51:51,833
where it's just a custodial
2081
00:51:51,833 --> 00:51:53,458
lightning provider,
2082
00:51:53,458 --> 00:51:55,291
one to the other. So, so.
2083
00:51:56,416 --> 00:51:57,416
What's what's the
2084
00:51:57,416 --> 00:51:58,333
what's the solution.
2085
00:51:58,333 --> 00:51:58,500
There?
2086
00:51:58,500 --> 00:51:58,708
Is it
2087
00:51:58,708 --> 00:51:59,708
is it always going to be
2088
00:51:59,708 --> 00:52:01,375
just a little bit of lag compared
2089
00:52:01,375 --> 00:52:02,958
to, to these other things
2090
00:52:02,958 --> 00:52:04,083
just because,
2091
00:52:04,083 --> 00:52:07,083
the swap goes through the, the,
2092
00:52:07,541 --> 00:52:08,958
liquid rails
2093
00:52:08,958 --> 00:52:09,916
or is there something else
2094
00:52:09,916 --> 00:52:10,416
going on there
2095
00:52:10,416 --> 00:52:11,708
technically that,
2096
00:52:11,708 --> 00:52:14,250
that I don't understand.
2097
00:52:14,250 --> 00:52:16,416
Enlighten us please.
2098
00:52:16,416 --> 00:52:17,583
Okay.
2099
00:52:17,583 --> 00:52:20,041
So, agua in general
2100
00:52:20,041 --> 00:52:23,041
has a little bit of lag, and Samson,
2101
00:52:23,250 --> 00:52:25,666
is implementation related, so,
2102
00:52:25,666 --> 00:52:26,583
the loading times
2103
00:52:26,583 --> 00:52:27,291
and all that stuff.
2104
00:52:27,291 --> 00:52:28,708
So that also makes agua
2105
00:52:28,708 --> 00:52:30,000
sometimes still a little bit slower,
2106
00:52:30,000 --> 00:52:31,416
but that's entirely fixable.
2107
00:52:31,416 --> 00:52:32,875
And a Samsung Optima,
2108
00:52:32,875 --> 00:52:34,250
they know about it.
2109
00:52:34,250 --> 00:52:35,250
I actually sent him
2110
00:52:35,250 --> 00:52:36,458
a long list of feedback
2111
00:52:36,458 --> 00:52:37,666
after adopting Bitcoin
2112
00:52:37,666 --> 00:52:38,791
because I use it as a
2113
00:52:38,791 --> 00:52:41,250
as my daily driver there as well.
2114
00:52:41,250 --> 00:52:41,916
What to fix.
2115
00:52:41,916 --> 00:52:43,208
And, I'm confident
2116
00:52:43,208 --> 00:52:44,750
things will be faster and snappier
2117
00:52:44,750 --> 00:52:46,416
from, from the UX perspective
2118
00:52:46,416 --> 00:52:48,750
for the lightning payment, itself.
2119
00:52:48,750 --> 00:52:50,041
So what is happening under the hood
2120
00:52:50,041 --> 00:52:51,958
when you do a lightning payment is,
2121
00:52:51,958 --> 00:52:52,875
you send,
2122
00:52:52,875 --> 00:52:55,541
liquid bitcoin into a swap.
2123
00:52:55,541 --> 00:52:57,208
So it's being locked up on the on
2124
00:52:57,208 --> 00:52:58,083
and the lock up address
2125
00:52:58,083 --> 00:53:00,083
on, on the, on the liquid chain
2126
00:53:00,083 --> 00:53:00,958
and but technically
2127
00:53:00,958 --> 00:53:02,000
it takes up to a minute
2128
00:53:02,000 --> 00:53:03,875
depending on the time
2129
00:53:03,875 --> 00:53:04,416
that you
2130
00:53:04,416 --> 00:53:05,583
the time between two blocks
2131
00:53:05,583 --> 00:53:07,250
that you got there,
2132
00:53:07,250 --> 00:53:08,666
could take up to 60s
2133
00:53:08,666 --> 00:53:10,958
if we, if we were waiting for,
2134
00:53:10,958 --> 00:53:11,708
one confirmation.
2135
00:53:11,708 --> 00:53:13,291
So actually on liquid
2136
00:53:13,291 --> 00:53:13,958
the design
2137
00:53:13,958 --> 00:53:14,500
and that's why
2138
00:53:14,500 --> 00:53:15,083
we are in close
2139
00:53:15,083 --> 00:53:16,208
contact with Blockstream
2140
00:53:16,208 --> 00:53:17,375
is to actually keeps
2141
00:53:17,375 --> 00:53:18,416
their account safe.
2142
00:53:18,416 --> 00:53:19,333
So we know now.
2143
00:53:19,333 --> 00:53:20,208
And we learned that,
2144
00:53:20,208 --> 00:53:21,458
zero comes on the main chain
2145
00:53:21,458 --> 00:53:24,000
as a no go. And, since mempool.
2146
00:53:24,000 --> 00:53:24,750
Thanks. Peter Toth.
2147
00:53:25,708 --> 00:53:27,041
Is is a thing we
2148
00:53:27,041 --> 00:53:28,500
there's just no zero code anymore.
2149
00:53:28,500 --> 00:53:29,125
And if you do it,
2150
00:53:29,125 --> 00:53:30,125
then it's just a high,
2151
00:53:30,125 --> 00:53:31,625
very high risk,
2152
00:53:31,625 --> 00:53:32,875
and liquid to design.
2153
00:53:32,875 --> 00:53:34,416
And the intention,
2154
00:53:34,416 --> 00:53:35,416
of the technical design
2155
00:53:35,416 --> 00:53:38,041
is to keep that safe and actually,
2156
00:53:38,041 --> 00:53:39,750
quite the contrary, make it safer.
2157
00:53:39,750 --> 00:53:41,250
So we're working on certain internal
2158
00:53:41,250 --> 00:53:44,291
tooling to actually, make liquid,
2159
00:53:45,416 --> 00:53:46,541
silicon transactions
2160
00:53:46,541 --> 00:53:48,750
for anyone safe to accept.
2161
00:53:48,750 --> 00:53:49,916
And that is the upside
2162
00:53:49,916 --> 00:53:50,958
of the centralization
2163
00:53:50,958 --> 00:53:52,583
of the 15 functionaries
2164
00:53:52,583 --> 00:53:55,041
that produce, the liquid blocks.
2165
00:53:55,041 --> 00:53:56,166
And very simple terms.
2166
00:53:56,166 --> 00:53:57,958
If all 15 functionaries
2167
00:53:57,958 --> 00:53:59,041
tell you
2168
00:53:59,041 --> 00:53:59,541
I have two
2169
00:53:59,541 --> 00:54:00,750
transactions in my mempool,
2170
00:54:00,750 --> 00:54:02,916
I will included in a block,
2171
00:54:02,916 --> 00:54:03,875
it's pretty safe
2172
00:54:03,875 --> 00:54:05,625
to accept that transaction.
2173
00:54:05,625 --> 00:54:07,791
And that's basically
2174
00:54:07,791 --> 00:54:08,708
you should leverage
2175
00:54:08,708 --> 00:54:09,500
you should embrace
2176
00:54:09,500 --> 00:54:10,208
that centralization
2177
00:54:10,208 --> 00:54:11,708
of that actually leverage,
2178
00:54:11,708 --> 00:54:12,875
leverage for that.
2179
00:54:12,875 --> 00:54:14,250
And that's what we're doing. Right.
2180
00:54:14,250 --> 00:54:16,500
So, we are accepting zero
2181
00:54:16,500 --> 00:54:17,375
transactions still
2182
00:54:17,375 --> 00:54:18,208
with an upper limit.
2183
00:54:20,125 --> 00:54:21,208
But we definitely can
2184
00:54:21,208 --> 00:54:21,875
increase the limit
2185
00:54:21,875 --> 00:54:24,333
and make these transactions
2186
00:54:24,333 --> 00:54:25,500
maybe total round trip type,
2187
00:54:25,500 --> 00:54:26,375
maybe like something
2188
00:54:26,375 --> 00:54:27,666
like 2 or 3 seconds
2189
00:54:27,666 --> 00:54:29,375
where you should be,
2190
00:54:29,375 --> 00:54:31,750
having, your liquid, Bitcoin
2191
00:54:31,750 --> 00:54:32,791
being accepted by bolts
2192
00:54:32,791 --> 00:54:33,750
and then both start paying
2193
00:54:33,750 --> 00:54:35,583
the lightning in was already
2194
00:54:35,583 --> 00:54:37,083
so that is
2195
00:54:37,083 --> 00:54:37,666
as far
2196
00:54:37,666 --> 00:54:38,791
that should be technically
2197
00:54:38,791 --> 00:54:40,750
as fast as Phoenix.
2198
00:54:40,750 --> 00:54:41,291
In the future.
2199
00:54:41,291 --> 00:54:41,708
Right now,
2200
00:54:41,708 --> 00:54:42,666
there are certain delays
2201
00:54:42,666 --> 00:54:43,583
for security reasons
2202
00:54:43,583 --> 00:54:44,958
and each and every step.
2203
00:54:44,958 --> 00:54:46,208
So you always end up
2204
00:54:46,208 --> 00:54:47,375
you always end up with a
2205
00:54:47,375 --> 00:54:48,541
with a slower time,
2206
00:54:48,541 --> 00:54:50,166
but it will always be a native
2207
00:54:50,166 --> 00:54:50,750
lightning payments.
2208
00:54:50,750 --> 00:54:51,958
It will never be as fast
2209
00:54:51,958 --> 00:54:53,041
as a wallet of Satoshi
2210
00:54:53,041 --> 00:54:54,666
to wallet of Satoshi transaction,
2211
00:54:54,666 --> 00:54:56,208
which is just a database
2212
00:54:56,208 --> 00:54:56,916
transaction, right?
2213
00:54:56,916 --> 00:54:58,250
So that one is always faster.
2214
00:54:58,250 --> 00:55:00,041
That's unbeatable.
2215
00:55:00,041 --> 00:55:00,958
We have to live with that.
2216
00:55:00,958 --> 00:55:02,000
But that's okay.
2217
00:55:02,000 --> 00:55:02,666
Now of course.
2218
00:55:02,666 --> 00:55:03,750
And well, and actually,
2219
00:55:03,750 --> 00:55:04,875
I can say from,
2220
00:55:04,875 --> 00:55:06,208
from experience,
2221
00:55:06,208 --> 00:55:07,458
using the lightning
2222
00:55:07,458 --> 00:55:09,125
side of, of bolts,
2223
00:55:10,166 --> 00:55:11,458
swapping in or making a
2224
00:55:11,458 --> 00:55:12,208
payment from,
2225
00:55:12,208 --> 00:55:13,458
from liquid,
2226
00:55:13,458 --> 00:55:16,208
the as soon as the, the
2227
00:55:16,208 --> 00:55:17,625
like if I'm making a payment
2228
00:55:17,625 --> 00:55:20,125
from a channel, a lightning channel,
2229
00:55:20,125 --> 00:55:21,000
bolts receives it.
2230
00:55:21,000 --> 00:55:21,708
And the process.
2231
00:55:21,708 --> 00:55:22,916
Is it like I don't
2232
00:55:22,916 --> 00:55:24,166
I don't even have time to switch
2233
00:55:24,166 --> 00:55:25,166
the tab. It's already.
2234
00:55:25,166 --> 00:55:27,500
It's already done.
2235
00:55:27,500 --> 00:55:29,291
So, yeah, I can I can speak to that.
2236
00:55:29,291 --> 00:55:30,375
Things that things appear
2237
00:55:30,375 --> 00:55:31,125
to be really quite
2238
00:55:31,125 --> 00:55:32,458
tight on the, on the bolts.
2239
00:55:32,458 --> 00:55:33,166
And it's just
2240
00:55:33,166 --> 00:55:34,916
using the different technologies
2241
00:55:34,916 --> 00:55:36,625
in, in concert I guess.
2242
00:55:36,625 --> 00:55:37,291
Kind of
2243
00:55:37,291 --> 00:55:38,583
makes it complicated,
2244
00:55:38,583 --> 00:55:40,291
but nice to know that it's,
2245
00:55:40,291 --> 00:55:41,500
nice to know that it's improving.
2246
00:55:41,500 --> 00:55:42,458
Yes. And it will be.
2247
00:55:42,458 --> 00:55:43,666
It will be faster.
2248
00:55:43,666 --> 00:55:46,291
If I was to do a tldr on on
2249
00:55:46,291 --> 00:55:47,583
like your back
2250
00:55:47,583 --> 00:55:49,166
and forth over the last 20 minutes,
2251
00:55:49,166 --> 00:55:50,000
it would be it
2252
00:55:50,000 --> 00:55:50,625
20 minutes,
2253
00:55:50,625 --> 00:55:51,458
it would have been
2254
00:55:51,458 --> 00:55:53,916
liquid is pretty solid, like.
2255
00:55:55,333 --> 00:55:55,833
I would say.
2256
00:55:55,833 --> 00:55:56,958
So yeah.
2257
00:55:56,958 --> 00:55:57,458
I mean,
2258
00:55:57,458 --> 00:55:58,708
I learned about
2259
00:55:58,708 --> 00:56:01,708
liquid myself on the,
2260
00:56:02,083 --> 00:56:03,416
right before we, you know,
2261
00:56:03,416 --> 00:56:04,708
when we started integrating it,
2262
00:56:04,708 --> 00:56:06,875
I had no idea what liquid was, and
2263
00:56:06,875 --> 00:56:08,125
I had to read up stuff.
2264
00:56:08,125 --> 00:56:09,458
And I was skeptical for,
2265
00:56:09,458 --> 00:56:10,208
for quite some time,
2266
00:56:10,208 --> 00:56:10,958
but also was the reason
2267
00:56:10,958 --> 00:56:12,416
why we had this integration
2268
00:56:12,416 --> 00:56:13,208
there sitting around.
2269
00:56:13,208 --> 00:56:14,083
It didn't really finish it.
2270
00:56:14,083 --> 00:56:15,166
We didn't have a reason for it
2271
00:56:15,166 --> 00:56:15,916
and was like, okay,
2272
00:56:15,916 --> 00:56:16,916
I don't know how it will
2273
00:56:16,916 --> 00:56:18,750
will be perceived by the market,
2274
00:56:18,750 --> 00:56:20,708
you know, like,
2275
00:56:20,708 --> 00:56:22,500
but knowing no liquid
2276
00:56:22,500 --> 00:56:24,208
and no knowing the,
2277
00:56:24,208 --> 00:56:27,208
the people at work on liquid,
2278
00:56:27,458 --> 00:56:29,875
I, I am of the opinion
2279
00:56:29,875 --> 00:56:31,291
liquid is a pretty solid project.
2280
00:56:31,291 --> 00:56:33,958
So because the the amount of effort
2281
00:56:33,958 --> 00:56:35,666
and research resources
2282
00:56:35,666 --> 00:56:37,625
that Blockstream spent
2283
00:56:37,625 --> 00:56:39,458
to make liquid, solid
2284
00:56:39,458 --> 00:56:41,375
and reliable is immense,
2285
00:56:41,375 --> 00:56:43,208
you don't see any of that
2286
00:56:43,208 --> 00:56:45,166
on the outside. Nothing of that.
2287
00:56:45,166 --> 00:56:46,250
But the fact that it didn't
2288
00:56:46,250 --> 00:56:48,041
have a single downtime
2289
00:56:48,041 --> 00:56:48,541
since I think
2290
00:56:48,541 --> 00:56:51,625
one small incident in November 2018,
2291
00:56:51,666 --> 00:56:53,208
there was a 19.
2292
00:56:53,208 --> 00:56:54,166
There wasn't a downtime, right?
2293
00:56:54,166 --> 00:56:56,166
So that that means quite something.
2294
00:56:56,166 --> 00:56:57,750
And there's nothing oxymoronic
2295
00:56:57,750 --> 00:56:58,791
about something liquid
2296
00:56:58,791 --> 00:56:59,833
being solid at all.
2297
00:57:03,791 --> 00:57:04,708
Yes.
2298
00:57:04,708 --> 00:57:06,416
He always manages to find this.
2299
00:57:06,416 --> 00:57:09,083
He always manages to find his isn't.
2300
00:57:09,083 --> 00:57:10,250
Oh, okay.
2301
00:57:10,250 --> 00:57:11,458
From one thing to another,
2302
00:57:11,458 --> 00:57:13,541
that, jokes aside, like,
2303
00:57:13,541 --> 00:57:16,541
there's I've met a couple of,
2304
00:57:17,291 --> 00:57:18,750
rootstock advocates
2305
00:57:18,750 --> 00:57:19,916
in, in Buenos Aires.
2306
00:57:19,916 --> 00:57:22,000
You mentioned rootstock before.
2307
00:57:22,000 --> 00:57:24,750
I'm I'm very unfamiliar
2308
00:57:24,750 --> 00:57:25,416
with the project.
2309
00:57:25,416 --> 00:57:25,750
Still,
2310
00:57:25,750 --> 00:57:27,833
they try to explain some stuff, but,
2311
00:57:27,833 --> 00:57:28,833
yeah, a lot of that
2312
00:57:28,833 --> 00:57:30,000
flew over my head.
2313
00:57:30,000 --> 00:57:32,583
So, like,
2314
00:57:32,583 --> 00:57:34,583
what's rootstock and is it
2315
00:57:34,583 --> 00:57:37,583
solid?
2316
00:57:38,375 --> 00:57:38,958
Rootstock
2317
00:57:38,958 --> 00:57:41,958
is pretty similar to, to liquid.
2318
00:57:42,083 --> 00:57:43,750
So to the solid part,
2319
00:57:43,750 --> 00:57:45,000
let's come to it. Maybe in the end.
2320
00:57:45,000 --> 00:57:47,208
So, rootstock is a sidechain
2321
00:57:47,208 --> 00:57:48,333
just like liquid is
2322
00:57:48,333 --> 00:57:49,916
based on the same principles.
2323
00:57:49,916 --> 00:57:51,791
There are a couple of
2324
00:57:51,791 --> 00:57:53,583
technical differences
2325
00:57:53,583 --> 00:57:55,416
or maybe first of similarities.
2326
00:57:55,416 --> 00:57:57,041
It is a sidechain.
2327
00:57:57,041 --> 00:57:58,125
It has a federation
2328
00:57:58,125 --> 00:57:59,375
that is custodian.
2329
00:57:59,375 --> 00:58:00,958
That is a big multisig custody
2330
00:58:00,958 --> 00:58:02,833
being the one to unpack with
2331
00:58:02,833 --> 00:58:05,166
RPC helps called on on rootstock.
2332
00:58:05,166 --> 00:58:07,125
So bitcoin versus
2333
00:58:07,125 --> 00:58:08,583
mentioned bitcoin same way
2334
00:58:08,583 --> 00:58:09,750
liquid bitcoin
2335
00:58:09,750 --> 00:58:10,833
versus the mentioned bitcoin.
2336
00:58:12,541 --> 00:58:12,708
Yeah.
2337
00:58:12,708 --> 00:58:13,333
It's a sidechain is
2338
00:58:13,333 --> 00:58:14,125
a blockchain based.
2339
00:58:14,125 --> 00:58:15,041
It has block intervals.
2340
00:58:15,041 --> 00:58:16,666
It has 30s
2341
00:58:16,666 --> 00:58:17,541
block intervals
2342
00:58:17,541 --> 00:58:19,291
instead of one minute
2343
00:58:19,291 --> 00:58:20,708
like liquid does.
2344
00:58:20,708 --> 00:58:22,208
And one major difference
2345
00:58:22,208 --> 00:58:25,208
is that in rootstock, the
2346
00:58:26,166 --> 00:58:28,833
the federation that guards,
2347
00:58:28,833 --> 00:58:29,375
the multisig,
2348
00:58:29,375 --> 00:58:31,041
the RPC is separate
2349
00:58:31,041 --> 00:58:32,125
from the block producer.
2350
00:58:32,125 --> 00:58:32,916
So in liquid it's
2351
00:58:32,916 --> 00:58:33,291
the same
2352
00:58:33,291 --> 00:58:34,875
15 entities
2353
00:58:34,875 --> 00:58:35,750
called functionaries
2354
00:58:35,750 --> 00:58:37,541
that do both to do the,
2355
00:58:37,541 --> 00:58:39,583
the two card, the LTC pack,
2356
00:58:39,583 --> 00:58:40,875
but also produce the blocks
2357
00:58:40,875 --> 00:58:42,250
now have the mempool running and
2358
00:58:42,250 --> 00:58:43,666
and basically
2359
00:58:43,666 --> 00:58:44,958
put transactions on blocks
2360
00:58:44,958 --> 00:58:46,625
and attach them to the chain
2361
00:58:46,625 --> 00:58:47,375
and rootstock.
2362
00:58:47,375 --> 00:58:48,958
It's actually the actual
2363
00:58:48,958 --> 00:58:50,291
Bitcoin miners that do that.
2364
00:58:50,291 --> 00:58:52,583
The rootstock is being, secured.
2365
00:58:52,583 --> 00:58:53,750
And block production
2366
00:58:53,750 --> 00:58:54,625
happens on
2367
00:58:54,625 --> 00:58:55,791
a, on a
2368
00:58:55,791 --> 00:58:57,750
mechanism called merchant mining.
2369
00:58:57,750 --> 00:58:59,250
So about I think right now
2370
00:58:59,250 --> 00:58:59,625
it's about
2371
00:58:59,625 --> 00:59:01,416
60% is is changing
2372
00:59:01,416 --> 00:59:02,458
because of new mining
2373
00:59:02,458 --> 00:59:03,875
farms coming up and stuff.
2374
00:59:03,875 --> 00:59:04,416
But around
2375
00:59:04,416 --> 00:59:05,375
between 50
2376
00:59:05,375 --> 00:59:07,500
and 60% of the bitcoin miners,
2377
00:59:07,500 --> 00:59:08,583
which is pretty decent
2378
00:59:08,583 --> 00:59:11,208
hash rate, is securing,
2379
00:59:11,208 --> 00:59:13,166
the, rootstock sidechain
2380
00:59:13,166 --> 00:59:14,458
at the same time.
2381
00:59:14,458 --> 00:59:17,458
And merged mining in simple terms,
2382
00:59:17,500 --> 00:59:20,041
is interesting for miners to do that
2383
00:59:20,041 --> 00:59:21,083
because they get a
2384
00:59:21,083 --> 00:59:23,333
part of the piece,
2385
00:59:23,333 --> 00:59:23,625
you know,
2386
00:59:23,625 --> 00:59:25,083
the fees that are being spent on the
2387
00:59:25,083 --> 00:59:25,958
on the roots of sidechain
2388
00:59:25,958 --> 00:59:26,833
as their reward.
2389
00:59:26,833 --> 00:59:27,750
So it's an additional
2390
00:59:27,750 --> 00:59:29,458
and an additional income.
2391
00:59:29,458 --> 00:59:30,333
And that is important part
2392
00:59:30,333 --> 00:59:31,458
without extra costs.
2393
00:59:31,458 --> 00:59:34,083
Right. So merch mining is for free.
2394
00:59:34,083 --> 00:59:34,875
And also they don't
2395
00:59:34,875 --> 00:59:36,333
have to put up more power
2396
00:59:36,333 --> 00:59:38,208
or more electricity
2397
00:59:38,208 --> 00:59:40,208
in order to mine Woodstock, as well.
2398
00:59:41,625 --> 00:59:44,041
The technical
2399
00:59:44,041 --> 00:59:46,708
underlying concepts of rootstock are
2400
00:59:46,708 --> 00:59:48,666
pretty sound, I would say.
2401
00:59:48,666 --> 00:59:49,208
The PAC
2402
00:59:49,208 --> 00:59:50,500
meta mechanism is,
2403
00:59:50,500 --> 00:59:51,708
on a technical level, different
2404
00:59:51,708 --> 00:59:52,833
than the one used.
2405
00:59:52,833 --> 00:59:54,125
And and liquid,
2406
00:59:54,125 --> 00:59:55,833
but is proven it's live
2407
00:59:55,833 --> 00:59:58,083
since 2018 as well.
2408
00:59:58,083 --> 00:59:59,041
Actually, before liquid
2409
00:59:59,041 --> 01:00:00,208
launched, the rootstock launched
2410
01:00:00,208 --> 01:00:02,791
I think in January 2018.
2411
01:00:02,791 --> 01:00:03,583
So early 20.
2412
01:00:03,583 --> 01:00:06,791
18 and liquid launched some, maybe
2413
01:00:07,375 --> 01:00:08,250
in November.
2414
01:00:08,250 --> 01:00:09,958
So pretty much at the same time.
2415
01:00:09,958 --> 01:00:10,333
And fossil
2416
01:00:10,333 --> 01:00:11,375
was really a no brainer
2417
01:00:11,375 --> 01:00:12,583
to integrate rootstock as well
2418
01:00:12,583 --> 01:00:15,583
because it's just the similarities.
2419
01:00:15,875 --> 01:00:16,416
Are there.
2420
01:00:16,416 --> 01:00:18,791
And additionally,
2421
01:00:18,791 --> 01:00:19,875
rootstock has its own
2422
01:00:19,875 --> 01:00:20,708
pond ecosystem.
2423
01:00:20,708 --> 01:00:21,458
And that is
2424
01:00:21,458 --> 01:00:22,250
that's probably a part
2425
01:00:22,250 --> 01:00:23,375
of the technical difference
2426
01:00:23,375 --> 01:00:24,666
that you won't like. Node.
2427
01:00:24,666 --> 01:00:26,875
Is that it's not a utx O
2428
01:00:26,875 --> 01:00:28,458
based chain.
2429
01:00:28,458 --> 01:00:30,041
It is an account model.
2430
01:00:30,041 --> 01:00:31,833
And the idea is to basically
2431
01:00:31,833 --> 01:00:34,916
be compatible with the Ethereum EVM
2432
01:00:35,208 --> 01:00:35,708
in order
2433
01:00:35,708 --> 01:00:36,375
to make it easy
2434
01:00:36,375 --> 01:00:37,000
for broader
2435
01:00:37,000 --> 01:00:39,583
for projects to move, to move over.
2436
01:00:39,583 --> 01:00:41,083
So the, the, the, the picture
2437
01:00:41,083 --> 01:00:42,208
fruits like it's basically,
2438
01:00:43,750 --> 01:00:44,416
poured over your
2439
01:00:44,416 --> 01:00:45,125
DeFi project
2440
01:00:45,125 --> 01:00:45,875
from Ethereum
2441
01:00:45,875 --> 01:00:48,250
or some other EVM ecosystem
2442
01:00:48,250 --> 01:00:49,583
to rootstock
2443
01:00:49,583 --> 01:00:51,458
make everything be based on Bitcoin.
2444
01:00:51,458 --> 01:00:52,833
It's all RPC back.
2445
01:00:52,833 --> 01:00:55,416
There's no, you know, other token,
2446
01:00:55,416 --> 01:00:56,250
involved than that.
2447
01:00:56,250 --> 01:00:57,750
And that's basically the premise.
2448
01:00:57,750 --> 01:00:59,458
And to be very, very secure
2449
01:00:59,458 --> 01:01:01,083
because of the high Bitcoin
2450
01:01:01,083 --> 01:01:02,375
miner hashrate that is,
2451
01:01:02,375 --> 01:01:04,416
you know, securing the network okay.
2452
01:01:04,416 --> 01:01:05,125
So you
2453
01:01:05,125 --> 01:01:07,375
you have these semi secure
2454
01:01:07,375 --> 01:01:09,875
bitcoin securities
2455
01:01:09,875 --> 01:01:11,916
like the rootstock Bitcoin
2456
01:01:11,916 --> 01:01:14,375
the pegged ones as,
2457
01:01:14,375 --> 01:01:17,375
as an anchor to whatever,
2458
01:01:17,375 --> 01:01:17,916
stupid shit
2459
01:01:17,916 --> 01:01:18,583
coin project
2460
01:01:18,583 --> 01:01:21,583
you want to spew out from your crap.
2461
01:01:21,750 --> 01:01:22,208
All right.
2462
01:01:22,208 --> 01:01:24,541
So but but is,
2463
01:01:24,541 --> 01:01:26,166
is there a risk there?
2464
01:01:26,166 --> 01:01:27,250
Like what?
2465
01:01:27,250 --> 01:01:28,833
Merged mining and everything.
2466
01:01:28,833 --> 01:01:29,916
It sounds to me like that
2467
01:01:29,916 --> 01:01:30,458
this is
2468
01:01:30,458 --> 01:01:32,208
could potentially be messing
2469
01:01:32,208 --> 01:01:34,958
with miner incentives.
2470
01:01:34,958 --> 01:01:37,750
Somehow,
2471
01:01:37,750 --> 01:01:38,166
One way.
2472
01:01:39,791 --> 01:01:42,041
Well,
2473
01:01:42,041 --> 01:01:44,750
the,
2474
01:01:44,750 --> 01:01:46,166
from my perspective, like, the
2475
01:01:46,166 --> 01:01:47,000
the more
2476
01:01:47,000 --> 01:01:48,250
the more pure
2477
01:01:48,250 --> 01:01:50,333
the miner incentives are,
2478
01:01:50,333 --> 01:01:50,625
like,
2479
01:01:50,625 --> 01:01:52,625
the more their only incentives
2480
01:01:52,625 --> 01:01:53,916
are to mine bitcoin
2481
01:01:53,916 --> 01:01:56,666
and that for for the rewards,
2482
01:01:56,666 --> 01:01:59,666
the subsidy and the fees, the better
2483
01:01:59,875 --> 01:02:00,458
it is.
2484
01:02:00,458 --> 01:02:01,041
Then again,
2485
01:02:01,041 --> 01:02:02,958
I do believe that there's a future
2486
01:02:02,958 --> 01:02:05,166
where miners will have to use
2487
01:02:05,166 --> 01:02:06,041
their excess heat
2488
01:02:06,041 --> 01:02:07,208
and stuff for other stuff
2489
01:02:07,208 --> 01:02:09,166
in order to be profitable at all.
2490
01:02:09,166 --> 01:02:10,541
So there's
2491
01:02:10,541 --> 01:02:12,208
there's bound to be other incentives
2492
01:02:12,208 --> 01:02:14,333
going into it.
2493
01:02:14,333 --> 01:02:15,833
I just really, really,
2494
01:02:15,833 --> 01:02:17,375
really don't like Ethereum
2495
01:02:17,375 --> 01:02:18,750
and anything,
2496
01:02:18,750 --> 01:02:20,458
connected to it's having like,
2497
01:02:20,458 --> 01:02:21,708
messing with Bitcoin,
2498
01:02:21,708 --> 01:02:22,500
the incentives.
2499
01:02:22,500 --> 01:02:23,875
But maybe that's not a risk.
2500
01:02:23,875 --> 01:02:25,625
Like,
2501
01:02:25,625 --> 01:02:26,166
Yeah.
2502
01:02:26,166 --> 01:02:28,083
Good idea for something here.
2503
01:02:28,083 --> 01:02:29,041
Yeah.
2504
01:02:29,041 --> 01:02:29,583
Good question.
2505
01:02:29,583 --> 01:02:31,083
So I never really
2506
01:02:31,083 --> 01:02:33,125
did dig into that too much.
2507
01:02:33,125 --> 01:02:33,958
So you are hinting
2508
01:02:33,958 --> 01:02:36,291
at something like, you know, maybe,
2509
01:02:36,291 --> 01:02:38,583
my restricted value being possible
2510
01:02:38,583 --> 01:02:40,166
and mine is being distracted
2511
01:02:40,166 --> 01:02:41,583
with Dan sometimes from,
2512
01:02:42,750 --> 01:02:44,583
you know, the, the Bitcoin
2513
01:02:44,583 --> 01:02:45,500
main chain.
2514
01:02:45,500 --> 01:02:47,041
But then it's really it's separate
2515
01:02:47,041 --> 01:02:49,291
to this to this ecosystem there.
2516
01:02:49,291 --> 01:02:50,500
So yeah
2517
01:02:50,500 --> 01:02:51,083
I don't think
2518
01:02:51,083 --> 01:02:52,166
it should be messing
2519
01:02:52,166 --> 01:02:53,375
with anything happening
2520
01:02:53,375 --> 01:02:55,416
on the Bitcoin maintaining at all.
2521
01:02:55,416 --> 01:02:56,291
What a good opinion.
2522
01:02:56,291 --> 01:02:59,083
What a good analogy.
2523
01:02:59,083 --> 01:03:00,875
Be like a gold miner
2524
01:03:00,875 --> 01:03:02,458
digging for gold and also
2525
01:03:02,458 --> 01:03:04,208
finding some other substance
2526
01:03:04,208 --> 01:03:05,083
that they're using
2527
01:03:05,083 --> 01:03:06,208
for something else.
2528
01:03:06,208 --> 01:03:07,500
Because they might as well dig
2529
01:03:07,500 --> 01:03:09,166
for that as it's likely.
2530
01:03:09,166 --> 01:03:09,875
So they discovered
2531
01:03:09,875 --> 01:03:10,750
some silver as well
2532
01:03:10,750 --> 01:03:12,208
to discover some other,
2533
01:03:12,208 --> 01:03:13,166
you know, metal that is
2534
01:03:13,166 --> 01:03:14,041
that is precious.
2535
01:03:14,041 --> 01:03:15,458
And, yeah,
2536
01:03:15,458 --> 01:03:16,208
I think that's,
2537
01:03:16,208 --> 01:03:18,125
that's a valid analogy.
2538
01:03:18,125 --> 01:03:19,166
Yeah.
2539
01:03:19,166 --> 01:03:20,708
Even though the silver
2540
01:03:20,708 --> 01:03:23,708
might be used for for selling,
2541
01:03:25,083 --> 01:03:27,083
some, some crap to people.
2542
01:03:27,083 --> 01:03:28,083
Well, well, anyway,
2543
01:03:28,083 --> 01:03:30,250
I can't take that analogy
2544
01:03:30,250 --> 01:03:31,041
any further
2545
01:03:31,041 --> 01:03:32,166
because it doesn't really work
2546
01:03:32,166 --> 01:03:33,083
with there's
2547
01:03:33,083 --> 01:03:34,833
only one element zero there.
2548
01:03:34,833 --> 01:03:36,708
There aren't stable isotopes of it.
2549
01:03:36,708 --> 01:03:39,708
So like the. Yeah.
2550
01:03:39,791 --> 01:03:40,416
Well and
2551
01:03:40,416 --> 01:03:41,791
I think the, the follow on to this
2552
01:03:41,791 --> 01:03:42,333
is that this
2553
01:03:42,333 --> 01:03:43,500
this is exactly
2554
01:03:43,500 --> 01:03:45,583
along with our thread recently
2555
01:03:45,583 --> 01:03:47,000
we've been having some discussions
2556
01:03:47,000 --> 01:03:50,000
about about this type of thing like,
2557
01:03:50,375 --> 01:03:51,541
coins on Bitcoin and,
2558
01:03:51,541 --> 01:03:54,208
and basically my, my view, our view
2559
01:03:54,208 --> 01:03:55,416
I think is, is pretty much
2560
01:03:55,416 --> 01:03:56,958
as long as they fuck off
2561
01:03:56,958 --> 01:03:58,208
and they're not doing
2562
01:03:58,208 --> 01:03:59,041
what they're doing on
2563
01:03:59,041 --> 01:04:00,125
the main chain, like,
2564
01:04:01,166 --> 01:04:01,958
if someone has to do
2565
01:04:01,958 --> 01:04:03,583
a peg in okay, that's that's fine.
2566
01:04:03,583 --> 01:04:05,750
That's you're, you're moving your UT
2567
01:04:05,750 --> 01:04:07,000
from one address to another
2568
01:04:07,000 --> 01:04:09,375
that's completely compatible with,
2569
01:04:09,375 --> 01:04:11,208
with Bitcoin in general.
2570
01:04:11,208 --> 01:04:13,500
And then you go off on your side
2571
01:04:13,500 --> 01:04:14,958
chain or your side
2572
01:04:14,958 --> 01:04:15,750
layer or whatever
2573
01:04:15,750 --> 01:04:16,833
you want to call it, and,
2574
01:04:16,833 --> 01:04:18,666
and do your thing.
2575
01:04:18,666 --> 01:04:19,625
And then eventually
2576
01:04:19,625 --> 01:04:21,541
you can peg back in
2577
01:04:21,541 --> 01:04:23,125
your bitcoin or not.
2578
01:04:23,125 --> 01:04:24,666
And that's your choice.
2579
01:04:24,666 --> 01:04:27,000
And I think that model is is fine
2580
01:04:27,000 --> 01:04:27,583
because people think.
2581
01:04:27,583 --> 01:04:28,833
That's the case for loops. So yes.
2582
01:04:28,833 --> 01:04:30,750
So if if the definitely
2583
01:04:30,750 --> 01:04:31,291
I mean
2584
01:04:31,291 --> 01:04:32,333
if you have an IBM,
2585
01:04:32,333 --> 01:04:32,708
you have,
2586
01:04:32,708 --> 01:04:33,625
you know,
2587
01:04:33,625 --> 01:04:35,041
Turing complete
2588
01:04:35,041 --> 01:04:37,000
programmability then things,
2589
01:04:37,000 --> 01:04:37,875
people will do things
2590
01:04:37,875 --> 01:04:39,208
and you can prevent that.
2591
01:04:39,208 --> 01:04:40,708
But that is, that is, that is,
2592
01:04:40,708 --> 01:04:43,125
that is okay. Not in my opinion.
2593
01:04:43,125 --> 01:04:44,416
Just let let them do it.
2594
01:04:44,416 --> 01:04:44,916
And if it's,
2595
01:04:44,916 --> 01:04:46,916
if it's, confined to this,
2596
01:04:46,916 --> 01:04:48,250
like I said, to this,
2597
01:04:48,250 --> 01:04:49,666
space on this layer,
2598
01:04:50,750 --> 01:04:51,875
why not let them,
2599
01:04:51,875 --> 01:04:53,375
let them, let them fool around.
2600
01:04:53,375 --> 01:04:54,875
What what really,
2601
01:04:54,875 --> 01:04:57,625
excites me about this, though, and,
2602
01:04:57,625 --> 01:05:01,166
I guess I guess probably one of the.
2603
01:05:02,333 --> 01:05:03,875
No, I'm not sure how
2604
01:05:03,875 --> 01:05:04,916
add how many other layers
2605
01:05:04,916 --> 01:05:06,041
we will be looking in the next
2606
01:05:06,041 --> 01:05:06,875
year, for example.
2607
01:05:06,875 --> 01:05:08,041
But what really excites me
2608
01:05:08,041 --> 01:05:09,208
about the programmability
2609
01:05:09,208 --> 01:05:09,625
is that it
2610
01:05:09,625 --> 01:05:10,541
actually could be useful
2611
01:05:10,541 --> 01:05:11,625
for Bitcoin.
2612
01:05:11,625 --> 01:05:12,541
Let me give you an example.
2613
01:05:12,541 --> 01:05:13,541
I think I highlighted it
2614
01:05:13,541 --> 01:05:15,208
even in the,
2615
01:05:15,208 --> 01:05:15,875
at the blog post
2616
01:05:15,875 --> 01:05:17,083
that where we launched
2617
01:05:17,083 --> 01:05:19,000
the lightning to reserve swaps.
2618
01:05:19,000 --> 01:05:20,041
And in the past couple of weeks,
2619
01:05:20,041 --> 01:05:21,208
this lightning
2620
01:05:21,208 --> 01:05:22,500
lightning has a couple of problems
2621
01:05:22,500 --> 01:05:25,500
with, doing more advanced things.
2622
01:05:25,500 --> 01:05:26,666
One of those, for example,
2623
01:05:26,666 --> 01:05:27,583
and I bet you
2624
01:05:27,583 --> 01:05:28,291
you can easily
2625
01:05:28,291 --> 01:05:29,583
follow the documentation here
2626
01:05:29,583 --> 01:05:31,458
is, with prism payments or payments
2627
01:05:31,458 --> 01:05:33,708
where you have to split up,
2628
01:05:33,708 --> 01:05:35,166
one payment into multiple,
2629
01:05:35,166 --> 01:05:35,833
for example,
2630
01:05:35,833 --> 01:05:37,458
when you are publishing an article
2631
01:05:37,458 --> 01:05:38,833
and there was three authors
2632
01:05:38,833 --> 01:05:39,875
that worked together
2633
01:05:39,875 --> 01:05:40,791
on this article,
2634
01:05:40,791 --> 01:05:41,791
you want to have a way
2635
01:05:41,791 --> 01:05:42,791
how you can split up
2636
01:05:42,791 --> 01:05:44,250
one lightning payment of,
2637
01:05:44,250 --> 01:05:45,500
you know, a paywall or some,
2638
01:05:45,500 --> 01:05:46,541
some reader pay
2639
01:05:46,541 --> 01:05:46,958
paying it,
2640
01:05:46,958 --> 01:05:47,875
it automatically took
2641
01:05:47,875 --> 01:05:48,750
to this through.
2642
01:05:48,750 --> 01:05:49,500
So right now
2643
01:05:49,500 --> 01:05:51,333
there is no good way to do that
2644
01:05:51,333 --> 01:05:52,958
in a non-custodial manner right now
2645
01:05:52,958 --> 01:05:54,583
usually is, you know,
2646
01:05:54,583 --> 01:05:55,875
a lender, you all accept that.
2647
01:05:55,875 --> 01:05:57,166
And then I push it out
2648
01:05:57,166 --> 01:05:58,916
by a regular annual payment
2649
01:05:58,916 --> 01:05:59,375
to these other.
2650
01:05:59,375 --> 01:06:00,333
But the nodes in the middle
2651
01:06:00,333 --> 01:06:00,833
and the node in the
2652
01:06:00,833 --> 01:06:01,500
middle as trusted.
2653
01:06:03,208 --> 01:06:05,125
A system like rootstock,
2654
01:06:05,125 --> 01:06:06,625
you could use it in order to do that
2655
01:06:06,625 --> 01:06:08,583
completely programmatically.
2656
01:06:08,583 --> 01:06:10,250
And that's non-custodial.
2657
01:06:10,250 --> 01:06:11,875
If you, instead of
2658
01:06:11,875 --> 01:06:13,208
staying on in the letting layer,
2659
01:06:13,208 --> 01:06:14,250
is okay.
2660
01:06:14,250 --> 01:06:16,041
PayPal user pays into,
2661
01:06:16,041 --> 01:06:17,083
a rootstock swap on that,
2662
01:06:17,083 --> 01:06:18,750
a rootstock swap pays out.
2663
01:06:18,750 --> 01:06:19,875
Maybe not even all that lightning.
2664
01:06:19,875 --> 01:06:20,916
Maybe some way lightning.
2665
01:06:20,916 --> 01:06:22,500
Some way, some way.
2666
01:06:22,500 --> 01:06:23,458
Via LBC.
2667
01:06:23,458 --> 01:06:24,125
But the roots,
2668
01:06:24,125 --> 01:06:25,083
the contract does its thing
2669
01:06:25,083 --> 01:06:26,708
and it's not stoppable, you know.
2670
01:06:26,708 --> 01:06:28,208
So I see potential
2671
01:06:28,208 --> 01:06:28,708
and it's just
2672
01:06:28,708 --> 01:06:30,000
the first idea that we have.
2673
01:06:30,000 --> 01:06:30,875
But I see potential
2674
01:06:30,875 --> 01:06:31,875
that this could be useful
2675
01:06:31,875 --> 01:06:33,333
for lightning itself.
2676
01:06:33,333 --> 01:06:33,666
Yeah.
2677
01:06:33,666 --> 01:06:36,666
I mean, I mostly agree, I,
2678
01:06:36,833 --> 01:06:39,666
I think that this
2679
01:06:39,666 --> 01:06:41,208
the thing is. Yeah, sure.
2680
01:06:41,208 --> 01:06:43,333
The ones
2681
01:06:43,333 --> 01:06:44,208
that people are going
2682
01:06:44,208 --> 01:06:45,333
to use their bitcoins
2683
01:06:45,333 --> 01:06:47,166
for different things.
2684
01:06:47,166 --> 01:06:48,208
Bitcoin is different things
2685
01:06:48,208 --> 01:06:49,416
to different people.
2686
01:06:49,416 --> 01:06:50,375
I would prefer
2687
01:06:50,375 --> 01:06:51,291
if no
2688
01:06:51,291 --> 01:06:53,000
human being ever used their bitcoin
2689
01:06:53,000 --> 01:06:54,625
for any illicit activity
2690
01:06:54,625 --> 01:06:56,250
or any scams whatsoever.
2691
01:06:56,250 --> 01:06:58,958
And Ethereum is a 70% pre mine
2692
01:06:58,958 --> 01:06:59,666
super scam.
2693
01:06:59,666 --> 01:07:00,875
So like I would prefer
2694
01:07:00,875 --> 01:07:02,250
if it had no association
2695
01:07:02,250 --> 01:07:03,333
to that at all.
2696
01:07:03,333 --> 01:07:04,875
But then again,
2697
01:07:04,875 --> 01:07:05,375
as Luke
2698
01:07:05,375 --> 01:07:07,000
says, as long as it's just
2699
01:07:07,000 --> 01:07:08,583
not affecting
2700
01:07:08,583 --> 01:07:10,708
not affecting Bitcoin itself,
2701
01:07:10,708 --> 01:07:12,333
then then I'm fine with it.
2702
01:07:12,333 --> 01:07:13,916
Which is why, by the way, also,
2703
01:07:13,916 --> 01:07:15,083
I, I'm not very fine
2704
01:07:15,083 --> 01:07:16,291
with the ordinals.
2705
01:07:16,291 --> 01:07:17,166
Good stuff
2706
01:07:17,166 --> 01:07:19,250
and the, the spamming
2707
01:07:19,250 --> 01:07:21,250
because it is affecting bitcoin,
2708
01:07:21,250 --> 01:07:22,791
it is pretending
2709
01:07:22,791 --> 01:07:24,958
that other things are as rare
2710
01:07:24,958 --> 01:07:26,666
as the satoshis themselves
2711
01:07:26,666 --> 01:07:27,666
and the other things
2712
01:07:27,666 --> 01:07:28,583
has has
2713
01:07:28,583 --> 01:07:29,916
no internal
2714
01:07:29,916 --> 01:07:31,958
connection to the network
2715
01:07:31,958 --> 01:07:33,208
other than like
2716
01:07:33,208 --> 01:07:34,083
they're not connected
2717
01:07:34,083 --> 01:07:35,041
to the mechanisms
2718
01:07:35,041 --> 01:07:36,208
of the incentive game
2719
01:07:36,208 --> 01:07:38,250
theoretical engine
2720
01:07:38,250 --> 01:07:40,125
that it's bitcoin.
2721
01:07:40,125 --> 01:07:41,125
Other than to,
2722
01:07:41,125 --> 01:07:42,916
to like distort the signal
2723
01:07:42,916 --> 01:07:44,333
because the Satoshi itself
2724
01:07:44,333 --> 01:07:46,166
is the signal within the network.
2725
01:07:46,166 --> 01:07:48,833
Right. So, so like my, my,
2726
01:07:49,916 --> 01:07:51,208
hope is that Bitcoin
2727
01:07:51,208 --> 01:07:53,208
keeps that it is
2728
01:07:53,208 --> 01:07:53,916
that Bitcoin's
2729
01:07:53,916 --> 01:07:55,666
users are vigilant enough
2730
01:07:55,666 --> 01:07:56,958
to, to to care
2731
01:07:56,958 --> 01:07:58,500
about keeping that intact
2732
01:07:58,500 --> 01:07:59,000
and keeping
2733
01:07:59,000 --> 01:08:01,291
that as undiluted as possible.
2734
01:08:01,291 --> 01:08:02,875
The, the absolute
2735
01:08:02,875 --> 01:08:04,375
rarity of the Satoshi,
2736
01:08:04,375 --> 01:08:05,166
how unique
2737
01:08:05,166 --> 01:08:06,958
the uniqueness of that property
2738
01:08:06,958 --> 01:08:09,291
and how it cannot be replicated.
2739
01:08:09,291 --> 01:08:10,625
Maybe, maybe my competition
2740
01:08:10,625 --> 01:08:11,500
actually works. Great.
2741
01:08:11,500 --> 01:08:14,375
So what if I told you that we,
2742
01:08:14,375 --> 01:08:15,708
create incentives
2743
01:08:15,708 --> 01:08:16,750
for people that have
2744
01:08:16,750 --> 01:08:18,375
this unbearable
2745
01:08:18,375 --> 01:08:19,166
need to create
2746
01:08:19,166 --> 01:08:20,708
these kind of systems,
2747
01:08:20,708 --> 01:08:21,791
to not do it on the maintain,
2748
01:08:21,791 --> 01:08:22,458
but do it somewhere else
2749
01:08:22,458 --> 01:08:23,708
because it's so much easier there.
2750
01:08:23,708 --> 01:08:24,541
They actually have the freedom.
2751
01:08:24,541 --> 01:08:25,958
You might even be supported,
2752
01:08:25,958 --> 01:08:26,250
you know,
2753
01:08:26,250 --> 01:08:27,500
you might even have wallet support.
2754
01:08:27,500 --> 01:08:27,833
Yes.
2755
01:08:27,833 --> 01:08:28,083
You know,
2756
01:08:28,083 --> 01:08:29,458
you don't have to do these crazy
2757
01:08:29,458 --> 01:08:30,750
hacks in order to make it happen.
2758
01:08:30,750 --> 01:08:32,125
So if we create incentives
2759
01:08:32,125 --> 01:08:33,375
to for people to actually move
2760
01:08:33,375 --> 01:08:34,375
to other layers to do that
2761
01:08:36,250 --> 01:08:37,833
better.
2762
01:08:37,833 --> 01:08:39,333
Yeah, I'd prefer they
2763
01:08:39,333 --> 01:08:40,625
were completely separated
2764
01:08:40,625 --> 01:08:41,375
from the whole thing
2765
01:08:41,375 --> 01:08:42,500
because I don't believe that
2766
01:08:42,500 --> 01:08:43,291
there's such a thing
2767
01:08:43,291 --> 01:08:44,833
as a digital token at all.
2768
01:08:44,833 --> 01:08:45,666
Like I don't believe
2769
01:08:45,666 --> 01:08:46,833
in intellectual property
2770
01:08:46,833 --> 01:08:47,416
to begin with.
2771
01:08:47,416 --> 01:08:48,208
So like,
2772
01:08:48,208 --> 01:08:49,416
I prefer if they stay
2773
01:08:49,416 --> 01:08:49,916
as far away
2774
01:08:49,916 --> 01:08:51,375
from Bitcoin as possible.
2775
01:08:51,375 --> 01:08:52,791
But if this is the only way,
2776
01:08:52,791 --> 01:08:53,916
they're,
2777
01:08:53,916 --> 01:08:55,666
Yeah, then okay, I'm fine with it.
2778
01:08:55,666 --> 01:08:57,625
This, delicate questions
2779
01:08:57,625 --> 01:08:58,875
and maybe I'm putting
2780
01:08:58,875 --> 01:08:59,708
too much energy
2781
01:08:59,708 --> 01:09:01,541
into thinking about these things.
2782
01:09:01,541 --> 01:09:02,291
The problem is,
2783
01:09:02,291 --> 01:09:03,541
as always,
2784
01:09:03,541 --> 01:09:05,375
there other people think differently
2785
01:09:05,375 --> 01:09:06,250
than you.
2786
01:09:06,250 --> 01:09:06,541
Yeah.
2787
01:09:06,541 --> 01:09:09,541
Period.
2788
01:09:09,583 --> 01:09:10,958
Yes, that is the problem.
2789
01:09:10,958 --> 01:09:13,375
You're right.
2790
01:09:13,375 --> 01:09:14,208
Killian, this is having
2791
01:09:14,208 --> 01:09:16,000
a really great, conversation.
2792
01:09:16,000 --> 01:09:16,541
Is there
2793
01:09:16,541 --> 01:09:18,375
is there anything else that you that
2794
01:09:18,375 --> 01:09:19,083
we haven't
2795
01:09:19,083 --> 01:09:20,208
had a chance to touch on that
2796
01:09:20,208 --> 01:09:22,458
you wanted to bring up? Oh,
2797
01:09:24,208 --> 01:09:25,208
I don't know.
2798
01:09:25,208 --> 01:09:28,208
Maybe in relation of some technical.
2799
01:09:28,833 --> 01:09:30,875
That's not really an anecdote, but,
2800
01:09:30,875 --> 01:09:32,125
you know, some even
2801
01:09:32,125 --> 01:09:34,291
question taproot.
2802
01:09:34,291 --> 01:09:34,500
Yeah.
2803
01:09:34,500 --> 01:09:34,875
It's like,
2804
01:09:34,875 --> 01:09:36,458
has it been the right thing to do?
2805
01:09:36,458 --> 01:09:38,041
Was that really so smart, after all?
2806
01:09:38,041 --> 01:09:41,041
And why why did we not catch the,
2807
01:09:41,041 --> 01:09:42,250
you know, the things that had
2808
01:09:42,250 --> 01:09:43,375
that enabled?
2809
01:09:43,375 --> 01:09:44,875
And I just want to give
2810
01:09:44,875 --> 01:09:46,333
another perspective on that.
2811
01:09:46,333 --> 01:09:48,958
So for us, taproot
2812
01:09:48,958 --> 01:09:50,416
has changed things
2813
01:09:50,416 --> 01:09:52,708
significantly in a positive way.
2814
01:09:52,708 --> 01:09:55,125
And let me tell you how. So
2815
01:09:55,125 --> 01:09:58,083
especially for wallets like Iowa,
2816
01:09:58,083 --> 01:09:59,333
we had one property
2817
01:09:59,333 --> 01:10:00,416
that was basically a
2818
01:10:00,416 --> 01:10:01,500
no go,
2819
01:10:01,500 --> 01:10:03,875
for for, for these integrations and
2820
01:10:03,875 --> 01:10:06,875
that was that you had to wait,
2821
01:10:07,083 --> 01:10:09,083
for refunds to arrive in your wallet
2822
01:10:09,083 --> 01:10:10,791
when a let new payment failed.
2823
01:10:10,791 --> 01:10:11,666
As we all know,
2824
01:10:11,666 --> 01:10:14,291
lightning is never 100% reliable,
2825
01:10:14,291 --> 01:10:15,333
no matter how hard you try.
2826
01:10:15,333 --> 01:10:16,583
And payments can fail.
2827
01:10:16,583 --> 01:10:18,125
So when we had an outgoing payment
2828
01:10:18,125 --> 01:10:19,083
so people were swapping
2829
01:10:19,083 --> 01:10:19,583
from the chain
2830
01:10:19,583 --> 01:10:20,583
or from liquid to lightning
2831
01:10:20,583 --> 01:10:21,333
and it failed,
2832
01:10:21,333 --> 01:10:22,500
they had to wait
2833
01:10:22,500 --> 01:10:24,666
between 2 and 4 days
2834
01:10:24,666 --> 01:10:25,625
to get their money back.
2835
01:10:25,625 --> 01:10:27,666
So on top of a failed payment,
2836
01:10:27,666 --> 01:10:28,416
they had to wait.
2837
01:10:28,416 --> 01:10:30,125
And you can imagine what the cost,
2838
01:10:30,125 --> 01:10:32,166
the frustration and the like.
2839
01:10:32,166 --> 01:10:34,333
Even getting this communicated,
2840
01:10:34,333 --> 01:10:35,166
which is my job,
2841
01:10:36,250 --> 01:10:37,625
was was really, really hard.
2842
01:10:37,625 --> 01:10:38,666
So with taproot
2843
01:10:38,666 --> 01:10:41,458
and, you know, all the,
2844
01:10:41,458 --> 01:10:44,125
key path spend, cooperative signing
2845
01:10:44,125 --> 01:10:45,958
magic, that that enabled
2846
01:10:45,958 --> 01:10:46,958
so we actually could do away
2847
01:10:46,958 --> 01:10:47,375
with that.
2848
01:10:47,375 --> 01:10:49,958
And, we can now, in simple terms,
2849
01:10:49,958 --> 01:10:52,791
give back refunds immediately
2850
01:10:52,791 --> 01:10:54,333
if the user or the users
2851
01:10:54,333 --> 01:10:56,416
client like an Aqua wallet and
2852
01:10:56,416 --> 01:10:58,916
agreed to cosign this refund,
2853
01:10:58,916 --> 01:10:59,708
transaction.
2854
01:10:59,708 --> 01:11:01,208
And that's what we do now.
2855
01:11:01,208 --> 01:11:03,625
And, the fact was was massive
2856
01:11:03,625 --> 01:11:04,541
for us, basically
2857
01:11:04,541 --> 01:11:06,458
a drop of support cases
2858
01:11:06,458 --> 01:11:08,708
of like 90, 95%.
2859
01:11:08,708 --> 01:11:10,083
And, actually,
2860
01:11:10,083 --> 01:11:10,625
a wallet,
2861
01:11:10,625 --> 01:11:11,583
like I'm not doing all that
2862
01:11:11,583 --> 01:11:12,416
automatically under
2863
01:11:12,416 --> 01:11:13,916
the hood is basically dot,
2864
01:11:13,916 --> 01:11:15,458
dot dot a scan of code.
2865
01:11:15,458 --> 01:11:16,875
Oh, payment failed because,
2866
01:11:16,875 --> 01:11:17,125
you know,
2867
01:11:17,125 --> 01:11:18,208
this node is not reachable,
2868
01:11:18,208 --> 01:11:19,583
is offline or,
2869
01:11:19,583 --> 01:11:19,916
I don't know,
2870
01:11:19,916 --> 01:11:20,625
it doesn't have enough
2871
01:11:20,625 --> 01:11:21,541
enough inbound.
2872
01:11:21,541 --> 01:11:22,791
A press the back button at
2873
01:11:22,791 --> 01:11:23,208
my refund
2874
01:11:23,208 --> 01:11:24,875
is already back in my wallet.
2875
01:11:24,875 --> 01:11:26,833
So that the taproot really, really
2876
01:11:27,791 --> 01:11:28,833
only enabled
2877
01:11:28,833 --> 01:11:29,250
us to
2878
01:11:29,250 --> 01:11:31,166
build these kind of kind of things
2879
01:11:31,166 --> 01:11:31,666
that otherwise
2880
01:11:31,666 --> 01:11:32,375
would not be possible.
2881
01:11:32,375 --> 01:11:34,000
So I just wanted to
2882
01:11:34,000 --> 01:11:34,833
throw that out there.
2883
01:11:34,833 --> 01:11:35,791
That taproot, yes,
2884
01:11:35,791 --> 01:11:36,583
is being used, yet
2885
01:11:36,583 --> 01:11:37,625
it's being
2886
01:11:37,625 --> 01:11:39,500
used for very specific,
2887
01:11:39,500 --> 01:11:41,333
sometimes called niche use cases.
2888
01:11:41,333 --> 01:11:42,958
But in these new niche
2889
01:11:42,958 --> 01:11:44,041
use cases, taproot
2890
01:11:44,041 --> 01:11:44,875
really, really shines.
2891
01:11:44,875 --> 01:11:47,875
So yeah, that's my take on that.
2892
01:11:48,208 --> 01:11:49,375
No, I love that
2893
01:11:49,375 --> 01:11:51,125
Bitcoin can still improve.
2894
01:11:51,125 --> 01:11:53,250
Like and if we
2895
01:11:53,250 --> 01:11:55,208
if there's overwhelming consensus
2896
01:11:55,208 --> 01:11:56,208
what it really needs it.
2897
01:11:56,208 --> 01:11:58,083
Like if you flip that around
2898
01:11:58,083 --> 01:11:58,750
that it
2899
01:11:58,750 --> 01:12:00,125
sort of means that Bitcoin
2900
01:12:00,125 --> 01:12:01,791
can only change for the better
2901
01:12:01,791 --> 01:12:03,333
because we're all defined.
2902
01:12:03,333 --> 01:12:04,208
We all.
2903
01:12:04,208 --> 01:12:05,541
If we all agree, then
2904
01:12:05,541 --> 01:12:06,291
that's sort of what
2905
01:12:06,291 --> 01:12:07,625
we define better.
2906
01:12:07,625 --> 01:12:09,875
As. You know,
2907
01:12:09,875 --> 01:12:11,125
if it happened in Bitcoin,
2908
01:12:11,125 --> 01:12:13,375
it was like the likelihood
2909
01:12:13,375 --> 01:12:13,833
that it was
2910
01:12:13,833 --> 01:12:15,333
for the better of
2911
01:12:15,333 --> 01:12:18,000
betterment, betterment of mankind.
2912
01:12:18,000 --> 01:12:19,833
The are very, very high.
2913
01:12:19,833 --> 01:12:20,791
The odds are very high
2914
01:12:20,791 --> 01:12:22,416
because everyone in Bitcoin agreed
2915
01:12:22,416 --> 01:12:22,916
otherwise
2916
01:12:22,916 --> 01:12:24,333
the thing wouldn't have happened.
2917
01:12:24,333 --> 01:12:27,000
So that's the other way to see that.
2918
01:12:27,000 --> 01:12:28,000
The yeah,
2919
01:12:28,000 --> 01:12:28,875
we could go into
2920
01:12:28,875 --> 01:12:30,000
the whole ossification of
2921
01:12:30,000 --> 01:12:31,875
debate too, but that doesn't.
2922
01:12:31,875 --> 01:12:32,250
And yeah,
2923
01:12:32,250 --> 01:12:34,125
yeah, yeah that's for another
2924
01:12:34,125 --> 01:12:36,208
that's for another, conversation.
2925
01:12:37,416 --> 01:12:38,916
But it's good to hear good
2926
01:12:38,916 --> 01:12:40,416
to hear that taproot is working
2927
01:12:40,416 --> 01:12:43,416
and, that it's, doing some good.
2928
01:12:44,291 --> 01:12:47,291
It is.
2929
01:12:47,375 --> 01:12:48,250
Awesome. Yeah.
2930
01:12:48,250 --> 01:12:49,375
Killian. That.
2931
01:12:49,375 --> 01:12:49,916
Thanks again.
2932
01:12:49,916 --> 01:12:50,458
And as I said,
2933
01:12:50,458 --> 01:12:53,166
this has been a great conversation.
2934
01:12:53,166 --> 01:12:55,708
I think we're sort of at a natural,
2935
01:12:55,708 --> 01:12:56,250
endpoint.
2936
01:12:56,250 --> 01:12:56,458
We've heard
2937
01:12:56,458 --> 01:12:58,000
a lot of great stuff about,
2938
01:12:58,000 --> 01:12:59,416
bolts and,
2939
01:12:59,416 --> 01:13:01,291
everything you're up to is
2940
01:13:01,291 --> 01:13:02,875
is there anything you have,
2941
01:13:02,875 --> 01:13:04,208
immediately on the the
2942
01:13:04,208 --> 01:13:06,000
the time horizon that,
2943
01:13:06,000 --> 01:13:07,083
we should know about or any
2944
01:13:07,083 --> 01:13:07,416
where you want
2945
01:13:07,416 --> 01:13:10,416
to direct our listeners to?
2946
01:13:11,333 --> 01:13:13,583
I would encourage your listeners,
2947
01:13:13,583 --> 01:13:15,000
especially the more technical ones,
2948
01:13:15,000 --> 01:13:16,291
to reach to arc,
2949
01:13:16,291 --> 01:13:16,625
you know,
2950
01:13:16,625 --> 01:13:19,291
build up an opinion on that.
2951
01:13:19,291 --> 01:13:21,875
I think Arc is very, very
2952
01:13:21,875 --> 01:13:23,916
interesting for, for Bitcoin
2953
01:13:23,916 --> 01:13:26,041
as a whole, for Bitcoin scaling,
2954
01:13:26,041 --> 01:13:27,458
as a whole.
2955
01:13:27,458 --> 01:13:29,416
I'm on a personal, not a crusade,
2956
01:13:29,416 --> 01:13:31,083
but on a personal mission
2957
01:13:31,083 --> 01:13:32,958
to not let happen to arc.
2958
01:13:32,958 --> 01:13:34,375
What happened to lightning
2959
01:13:34,375 --> 01:13:36,541
specifically that being oversold
2960
01:13:36,541 --> 01:13:38,250
as a solution to everything.
2961
01:13:38,250 --> 01:13:39,000
So I think it's
2962
01:13:39,000 --> 01:13:40,416
it would be very important
2963
01:13:40,416 --> 01:13:41,458
and maybe there's
2964
01:13:41,458 --> 01:13:43,083
some more work needed,
2965
01:13:44,208 --> 01:13:44,666
from people
2966
01:13:44,666 --> 01:13:47,666
like you and, you know, to, to,
2967
01:13:47,666 --> 01:13:49,458
to educate on, on in
2968
01:13:49,458 --> 01:13:52,041
simple terms, what, what Argus.
2969
01:13:52,041 --> 01:13:53,416
The next couple of months
2970
01:13:53,416 --> 01:13:54,333
so that people can form
2971
01:13:54,333 --> 01:13:55,333
a concrete opinion.
2972
01:13:55,333 --> 01:13:57,916
What I think about arc,
2973
01:13:57,916 --> 01:13:58,291
that's based.
2974
01:13:58,291 --> 01:14:00,666
Yeah, that's that's on the message.
2975
01:14:00,666 --> 01:14:03,458
Maybe I want to get out.
2976
01:14:03,458 --> 01:14:04,916
Good.
2977
01:14:04,916 --> 01:14:05,375
All right.
2978
01:14:05,375 --> 01:14:06,458
And, anywhere
2979
01:14:06,458 --> 01:14:08,333
you want to send our listeners,
2980
01:14:08,333 --> 01:14:09,625
except for what?
2981
01:14:09,625 --> 01:14:10,083
What was it?
2982
01:14:10,083 --> 01:14:12,750
Bolts dot some. Exchange.
2983
01:14:12,750 --> 01:14:13,833
Both for exchange.
2984
01:14:13,833 --> 01:14:14,041
Yeah.
2985
01:14:14,041 --> 01:14:15,750
Sponsored exchanges to my website.
2986
01:14:15,750 --> 01:14:20,291
You have our we, our is linked.
2987
01:14:20,666 --> 01:14:22,083
Our blog,
2988
01:14:22,083 --> 01:14:23,208
usually contains
2989
01:14:23,208 --> 01:14:24,125
all the features
2990
01:14:24,125 --> 01:14:25,208
that we launched in the past.
2991
01:14:25,208 --> 01:14:25,833
So if you want to,
2992
01:14:25,833 --> 01:14:26,916
you know, read a little bit
2993
01:14:26,916 --> 01:14:27,833
through about,
2994
01:14:27,833 --> 01:14:29,791
last year what we launched at pulse.
2995
01:14:29,791 --> 01:14:32,166
Some technical explainers.
2996
01:14:32,166 --> 01:14:33,166
But also like some,
2997
01:14:33,166 --> 01:14:34,791
you know, the vision a little bit.
2998
01:14:36,125 --> 01:14:37,708
We also have, I think,
2999
01:14:37,708 --> 01:14:38,458
the YouTube
3000
01:14:38,458 --> 01:14:40,583
playlist collection of, of,
3001
01:14:40,583 --> 01:14:41,958
you know, podcasts.
3002
01:14:41,958 --> 01:14:42,916
So probably this podcast
3003
01:14:42,916 --> 01:14:44,958
will end there as well. Linked.
3004
01:14:44,958 --> 01:14:47,375
But yeah. Cool.
3005
01:14:47,375 --> 01:14:47,708
Yeah.
3006
01:14:47,708 --> 01:14:48,666
I have an errand
3007
01:14:48,666 --> 01:14:51,000
to Madrid here in the, like,
3008
01:14:51,000 --> 01:14:52,500
somewhere within the time
3009
01:14:52,500 --> 01:14:54,708
span of two months from from now.
3010
01:14:54,708 --> 01:14:55,666
So I'll,
3011
01:14:55,666 --> 01:14:56,375
I'll ping you
3012
01:14:56,375 --> 01:14:57,875
when I know when I'm coming,
3013
01:14:57,875 --> 01:14:59,083
and we'll go grab a beer or.
3014
01:14:59,083 --> 01:14:59,458
Something,
3015
01:14:59,458 --> 01:15:01,416
make sure it's a Tuesday,
3016
01:15:01,416 --> 01:15:02,458
and then you catch our bit
3017
01:15:02,458 --> 01:15:03,750
confused and meet up.
3018
01:15:03,750 --> 01:15:04,500
Fantastic.
3019
01:15:04,500 --> 01:15:07,250
I'll make sure it's a Tuesday.
3020
01:15:07,250 --> 01:15:08,208
Kelly. Right.
3021
01:15:08,208 --> 01:15:09,166
Thank you very much
3022
01:15:09,166 --> 01:15:10,291
for coming on the Bitcoin
3023
01:15:10,291 --> 01:15:13,291
Infinity Show. The,
3024
01:15:13,333 --> 01:15:14,041
all the best.
3025
01:15:14,041 --> 01:15:15,458
Good luck with everything.
3026
01:15:15,458 --> 01:15:17,250
Thanks for having me, Luke.
3027
01:15:17,250 --> 01:15:18,625
Yeah, thanks a lot Killian.
3028
01:15:18,625 --> 01:15:20,250
It's been the Bitcoin infinity show.
3029
01:15:20,250 --> 01:15:21,208
Thank you for listening.