The Future of Bitcoin Mining with General Kenobi - Bitcoin Infinity Show #137

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General Kenobi, welcome to
the Bitcoin Affinity Show.

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Thank you for joining us.

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Luke, thank you.

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Knut, thank you.

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We are nearly all completely
Star Wars themed, actually.

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What's your Star Wars name?

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Darth something, I guess.

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Darth something.

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Yeah,

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to the enemy!

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Well, you're General Kenobi, as opposed
to Particular Kenobi, that's what the

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specific Kenobi, as a very smart man said.

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But, really, why are you General
Kenobi, and who are you, and give

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us the TLDR on General Kenobi, Obi

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long do you want the TLDR to be?

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Two minutes?

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Five

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Well, you don't have to go into
the Clone Wars and the midi

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chlorians and all of that stuff.

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You can, you can just give us the I'm in.

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When, when,

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Tatooine, me and Anakin.

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into the cave and when, when did they
promote you as a general and all that?

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Yeah, yeah, yeah, so

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The funny story with General Kenobi
is when I chose the name, I had no

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idea it would ever become something.

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I just thought it was going to be another
pseudonym on Twitter that does nothing.

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You know, I didn't expect
me to do anything with it.

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So then when I first received the
first email with like, Hey, General

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Kenobi, cause I wrote, I wrote like
a thing for a Bitcoin magazine.

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And then they like, there was
some emails back and forth.

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And suddenly I saw something about it.

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Hey, General Kenobi, could you please?

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And I was like, that's, that's serious.

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Like what the, what is going on here?

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Like that's serious.

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You know, like.

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Why not my real name or my, my as I
like to call it my government name.

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But, uh, I mean it all started
back in, um, well, of course

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Covid, I'm kind of young.

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I'm like from 1999, you know, I like
to say best year in the world, you

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know, like, because it's before 2000,
but if I get to live two, um, the two,

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if, if I get to live to 101 years,
then I have lived in two millennia,

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three centuries and, you know,

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Wait a minute, so, so you grew up
with, like, the, the, the Disney

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Star Wars and, like Yes, yeah.

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Oh, I've, my condolences.

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With a prequels, okay.

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Yeah.

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So with J Jar, Darth, Georgia.

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Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah.

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And, uh, what's he called?

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George R.

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R.

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Abrahams, who made the Disney, right?

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Yeah, so the, this is, see
if you agree with this list.

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It's, number one is Empire Strikes
Back, which is like a superb movie.

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Number two is the original Star
Wars, which is a very good movie.

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Number three is the first half of Return
of the Jedi, until the fucking teddy

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bears show up, and then it starts sucking.

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Like, the Jabba's Palace thing is superb.

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Then the fucking Ewoks show up and
it sucks, and every other Star Wars

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thing after that is complete bullshit.

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I agree with that.

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last sentence, I disagree with the Ewok
thing, cause I was like 7, 8, 9, 10

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when I saw that, so the Ewoks were the
best thing ever, so, you know, you saw

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those creatures and they're like some,
like quirky but also like effective,

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like you see them like smash the

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Oh, yeah, yeah.

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AT Ts.

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with the thing, and it was super fun, I
thought that was, I loved it when I was

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little, but I understand if you had a

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we'll do an interview with you again when
you're in your thirties and we'll see.

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and then it'll be like,
yeah, you're right.

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Looking back at it, it wasn't the best.

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Like they could have cut it down.

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Right.

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But they'll come in the future.

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For now, I'm still in the phase of like
loving it, but going back to the Tldr r

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yes.

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Sorry for sidetracking.

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worries.

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No, no,

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no.

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no.

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No,

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love it.

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Uh, 'cause usually I don't talk
to Star Wars people just, okay.

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General Cano, that's it.

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And they just leave it there.

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I'm like, there's so much talk there.

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Anyway, also like the whole like, like
against the empire, you know, and the

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rebels, like we're basically the rebels
dispersed, decentralized around us.

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I love

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Bitcoin is the photon torpedoes fired
at the Death Star's fucking core.

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That's what Bitcoin is.

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And we're the ones doing the firing
and trusting the force and stuff.

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chances that Satoshi Nakamoto would
fire right exactly that it would be

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perfectly aligned, like, you know,

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he used the force.

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Like that's what he did.

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He used human incentive structures and it

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Exactly, yes, with a bit of the force,
and now we're here all, fighting against

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the second Death Star, so to speak.

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But anyway, so

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Wait, what's the analogy there?

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What's the second Death

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The second, you know, the one that's like
half built and then they destroy it again.

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Uh, the fact that Satoshi Nakamoto was the
first one to throw the first one, like,

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uh, it destroyed the first death star.

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So like kind of gave us the first
opportunity to keep fighting back.

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Um,

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That's the block size

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that's how I see it.

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And the block size wars would
be the second or the first

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No, the first one, right.

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That, that's the, that's when we got the
first like victory over, uh, over the, the

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put it, I would put it as Satoshi Nakamoto
was the first one to throw the torpedoes.

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Cause it was so impossible, right.

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To like hit it exactly,

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make it that perfect.

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You know, cause I recently read
the book by Aaron Van Weerdum.

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I never know how to say his
last name, but I'm sorry, Aaron.

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Apologies.

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Um, and first of all,
absolutely fantastic.

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And when you get to the end,
I loved it because it was

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like, like it was a long book.

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It was, and it was proof of work.

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And then at the end.

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You just feel ecstatic when
Satoshi Nakamoto like releases it.

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It's like, yes, finally.

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So that was

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We figured it out.

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how I felt like that moment
was the, the torpedo.

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That's why I say Satoshi
Nakamoto destroyed the first

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That's how, yeah, yeah, yeah.

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Alright.

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but Hey, at the end of the day,
it's like art, you know, like,

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uh, it's in the eye of the

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It's like poetry at rhymes,

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Exactly.

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Yeah, exactly.

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Yeah.

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But we're never going to get there.

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So TLDR, COVID hits.

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I was studying economics in
Barcelona, uh, fiat economics,

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of course, mainstream economics.

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And um,

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you weren't studying

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exactly.

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Um, I was just basically studying
Mickey Mouse formulas as one of my

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teachers like to say, uh, because
there's so many assumptions at that

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point, you're just a Mickey Mouse world.

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But anyway, um, and COVID hit
and I had already been thinking

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funnily enough about like.

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Retirement.

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Even though I was only like 20, 19, I
was really thinking about retirement

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because I knew what inflation was.

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I knew what also what
compound interest was.

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And I was thinking about retirement.

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I also knew enough about investing
that I knew that at my age going for

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bonds and that shit would not cut it.

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Like if I wanted to like get a pension
at some point, because we have, we

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have also studied in class how the
pension system in Spain, we're just

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going to get a, thank you very much.

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And that's it.

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My parents are gonna get like,
perhaps a coffee paid, uh, but,

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but, I'm not getting anything.

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damn good in Spain though.

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It is, it is, but still, they
worked their entire lives, and they

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deserve a bit more, but anyway.

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So I was already thinking about
myself, and I was like, I need

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to figure out something that
is high risk in the short term.

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High risk, of course, volatility
is high risk, but whatever, you

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know, at that point, that was
my fiat thinking, let's say.

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Um, and of course, as I went down the risk
curve, the thing that is the riskiest,

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but also has the highest reward and long
term kind of like, let's say, It has the

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best Shar P ratio, risk adjusted Shar P
ratio, so returns is Bitcoin and cryptos.

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Of course, I got started with the
blockchain, not Bitcoin phase.

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I even fell into some Ponzi scheme
in Spain, very famous Ponzi scheme,

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Nimbus Capital or some shit like that.

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Yeah.

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Looking back, like, I'm like,
how dumb was I, but, but I guess

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that's the price to pay, right?

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I call it my thousand euro master, which
back then that was half of my net worth.

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I didn't have much more and I put a
thousand euros and then yeah, when

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it hits up, let's say, um, yeah.

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So it cost me half my net worth,
but I was also 20 years old.

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So it was, it was a cheap learning
experience, even though expensive

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for the time, you know, had I
bought Bitcoin, I still remember.

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I bought 0.

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1 Bitcoin when Bitcoin was at 10k
and I sent it to this Ponzi scheme.

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Later on, I had to like fight
for six months to get that

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You were in Cloud City and Lando
sold you out to Yes, exactly.

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To the Darth Vader.

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Yeah, yeah, yeah.

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Exactly.

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Exactly, exactly.

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No, not our friend land.

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Not our friend.

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Lando, of course.

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No.

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Lando Roth Bar.

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That's another Lando shopping.

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Bit Lambo.

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Yeah, we should, we should.

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We should . We should get, we
should get you and, and Lando.

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And are there any other
Star Wars Nim out here?

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I think

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Obi from

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yes.

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Oh yeah, yeah,

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with me.

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It's Obi Kenobi, right?

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yeah, yeah.

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Well, hey, welcome Obi Kenobi.

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we, do we know?

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Do we know A one?

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Uh, Juan.

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Juan, that's a

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Juan Ai Obi Juan

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Kenobi, we'll have to come with
Mexican and mariachi stuff, Obi

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and you started Star
Wars Mariachi band, but

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like in Roca, but with a Spanish spin, in
next Rocamoto, the Obi Juan Kenobi Knut,

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great idea.

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sings.

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I mean, yeah.

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yeah, he does, he does,

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play the, you know, good
mariachi guitar and yeah.

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Yeah.

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Or one of those, uh, Mongolo flutes
they have in Star Wars like that.

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yes.

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Sorry,

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we keep

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sidetracking you.

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it's so funny.

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Anyway,

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your story.

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circling back, getting back on track.

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Um, I was at the point of,
uh, blockchain, not Bitcoin.

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I thought I had found, Oh
yeah, blockchain is the thing.

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And around May of 2021, more or
less, I actually told my dad, Hey

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dad, I think I figured it out.

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I want to get into the crypto space and
the, and the, you know, blockchain and, Oh

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yeah, you know, because it's the future.

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00:09:45,956 --> 00:09:50,596
Of course, I still had lots to
learn, but, uh, I don't know how

247
00:09:50,596 --> 00:09:51,816
to say now in English, but like.

248
00:09:52,391 --> 00:09:56,121
So has it, life so has it, that at that
point, my dad, like two, three days

249
00:09:56,121 --> 00:09:59,156
later Talking to a friend of his at work.

250
00:09:59,156 --> 00:10:02,316
Apparently his coworker, blah, blah,
family member, blah, blah, blah.

251
00:10:02,316 --> 00:10:08,306
I was working in a company out of Germany
doing, uh, AI, crypto and GPU stuff.

252
00:10:08,346 --> 00:10:12,346
And when I was little, yeah, like, you
know, like all of the buzzwords combined

253
00:10:12,346 --> 00:10:16,346
together, you know, just shake it up,
have a nice cocktail and see which

254
00:10:16,346 --> 00:10:17,896
investors drink that Kool Aid, right.

255
00:10:18,326 --> 00:10:22,876
Um, but, but, but he had the contact
there and like, my dad was like, Hey,

256
00:10:22,926 --> 00:10:24,766
watch out, my son is right now doing this.

257
00:10:24,766 --> 00:10:25,126
So.

258
00:10:25,511 --> 00:10:29,741
Um, he sent over the information to
me and it kind of like fit perfectly.

259
00:10:29,741 --> 00:10:30,501
I studied economics.

260
00:10:30,501 --> 00:10:31,891
It was an investor relations position.

261
00:10:32,271 --> 00:10:33,801
Uh, so check.

262
00:10:34,001 --> 00:10:36,591
It was a GPU H high
performance computing thing.

263
00:10:36,751 --> 00:10:38,601
When I was 15, I built
my computer since then.

264
00:10:38,601 --> 00:10:41,731
I was like kind of like a computer
nerd, you know, I'm a PC master race.

265
00:10:41,961 --> 00:10:43,031
I don't know if that's something.

266
00:10:43,082 --> 00:10:43,492
Me too.

267
00:10:43,892 --> 00:10:44,412
You too?

268
00:10:44,652 --> 00:10:45,412
PC Master Race.

269
00:10:45,632 --> 00:10:46,232
That's the way.

270
00:10:46,562 --> 00:10:49,882
Um, so, so, you know, the GPU
thing was like, okay, check.

271
00:10:49,882 --> 00:10:53,812
And I had also been not just investing
in crypto as much as actually like

272
00:10:53,822 --> 00:10:56,932
learning about the technology and
like, okay, how does blockchain work?

273
00:10:56,932 --> 00:10:57,966
What's the, what is SHA256?

274
00:10:57,966 --> 00:10:59,902
What is cryptography?

275
00:11:00,052 --> 00:11:00,282
Yeah.

276
00:11:00,282 --> 00:11:04,452
I mean, in a way, it actually helped me to
halfway, I was halfway to Bitcoin, right?

277
00:11:04,672 --> 00:11:08,392
Cause some of my friends, they just like,
Yeah, dude, I'm into crypto and they would

278
00:11:08,392 --> 00:11:12,562
just put money in and I was like, but what
are you, do you even know what an AMM is?

279
00:11:12,562 --> 00:11:14,662
Do you know what a like
different blockchains are?

280
00:11:14,712 --> 00:11:15,952
Do you know how these things work?

281
00:11:16,142 --> 00:11:20,092
And yes, it was a bit very much
crypto bullshit, but at least

282
00:11:20,092 --> 00:11:23,802
I was like, no understanding,
understanding the technology, right?

283
00:11:25,442 --> 00:11:27,782
And freedom and
blockchain, all that stuff.

284
00:11:28,132 --> 00:11:30,592
And, um, and then when they
saw my profile, they were

285
00:11:30,592 --> 00:11:32,342
like, yeah, why not come in?

286
00:11:32,762 --> 00:11:35,962
And during those two months, I
actually didn't have too much to do.

287
00:11:36,222 --> 00:11:36,942
It was in Germany.

288
00:11:36,942 --> 00:11:41,822
I got in and I was expecting
a fully Bitcoin company where

289
00:11:41,822 --> 00:11:42,672
I was going to learn a lot.

290
00:11:42,962 --> 00:11:43,822
And I realized that.

291
00:11:44,477 --> 00:11:47,487
I was the third person out of 60
in headquarters that knew about

292
00:11:47,817 --> 00:11:51,367
Bitcoin and I was like, okay, I
guess there's something for me to do.

293
00:11:51,597 --> 00:11:55,147
So I decided to do a presentation on
what Bitcoin is and how it works because

294
00:11:56,197 --> 00:12:00,617
I saw my colleagues over at Legal, at
Treasury, at, uh, you know, Finance.

295
00:12:01,052 --> 00:12:04,182
Yes, they understood that Bitcoin existed,
but they didn't know anything about it.

296
00:12:04,212 --> 00:12:07,002
Basically, just like, you send
it, you receive it, and it's

297
00:12:07,032 --> 00:12:08,832
apparently worth dollars, right?

298
00:12:08,962 --> 00:12:09,312
That's it.

299
00:12:09,472 --> 00:12:12,992
But I was waiting for the day that the
treasury guy sends like 20 Bitcoins out

300
00:12:12,992 --> 00:12:17,062
into nothingness because he fat fingers
an extra C or B at the end of the address.

301
00:12:17,072 --> 00:12:19,792
And then he's like, where's
the helpline for Bitcoin?

302
00:12:20,052 --> 00:12:21,112
Can they send the Bitcoin back?

303
00:12:21,282 --> 00:12:23,982
So I was like, okay, let's
do a presentation on Bitcoin.

304
00:12:24,327 --> 00:12:27,837
And while I was doing the presentation,
the day, I still remember it, it was like

305
00:12:27,887 --> 00:12:31,577
clear as day, the day I understood proof
of work, proof of work clicked for me.

306
00:12:31,877 --> 00:12:35,387
Also, it's necessary to say I was
working in a, it was a Bitcoin

307
00:12:35,577 --> 00:12:37,377
miner with also Ethereum mining.

308
00:12:37,707 --> 00:12:40,962
Um, so yeah, with that information,
people should also know.

309
00:12:40,962 --> 00:12:42,982
And I'm not going to be able
to like triangulate which

310
00:12:42,982 --> 00:12:43,952
company I was working for.

311
00:12:44,272 --> 00:12:46,342
Um, but I'll let them
do their proof of work.

312
00:12:46,352 --> 00:12:47,722
Everyone needs to do proof of work, right?

313
00:12:48,442 --> 00:12:52,472
But the day I understood how proof
of work works, which is a bit of

314
00:12:52,472 --> 00:12:55,512
a mouthful, but you know, like
I, I still remember it, dude.

315
00:12:56,122 --> 00:12:57,172
I leaned back.

316
00:12:58,322 --> 00:13:01,112
I like my, my brain didn't
shut up for three weeks.

317
00:13:01,392 --> 00:13:02,082
Didn't shut up for three

318
00:13:02,162 --> 00:13:03,452
What was it that did it for you?

319
00:13:03,572 --> 00:13:06,562
Cause this is, this is something
that, that I think some people

320
00:13:06,562 --> 00:13:07,612
don't even still get it.

321
00:13:07,662 --> 00:13:11,392
Bitcoiners, I think, uh, it's
a, it's a big, big thing.

322
00:13:11,962 --> 00:13:12,412
Yeah.

323
00:13:12,632 --> 00:13:13,372
What did it for you?

324
00:13:13,372 --> 00:13:13,737
Bitcoin,

325
00:13:13,912 --> 00:13:15,312
I think it was the fact that.

326
00:13:16,587 --> 00:13:21,677
When, like when proof of work clicks and
you, it's actually not, it's actually

327
00:13:21,677 --> 00:13:26,617
an understanding that that is bringing
money back to reality in the sense that

328
00:13:26,803 --> 00:13:26,804
that.

329
00:13:27,827 --> 00:13:33,557
everything in the world that is worth
anything, it has proof of work inherently.

330
00:13:33,557 --> 00:13:37,667
You just, the moment I see someone
that is fit, proof of work, I know it.

331
00:13:37,797 --> 00:13:41,407
Even if he took steroids or anything,
there's proof of work that he hit the gym.

332
00:13:41,759 --> 00:13:45,259
Yeah, I'm going off on a tangent
here because we're trying to

333
00:13:45,259 --> 00:13:48,829
promote the concept of proof of
results in the book because I think

334
00:13:48,839 --> 00:13:50,069
proof of work is misunderstood.

335
00:13:50,799 --> 00:13:55,179
Yeah, the big, uh, proof of work is
misunderstood in the way that, uh,

336
00:13:56,059 --> 00:14:00,479
all the other work, the only work
that matters is the correct hash.

337
00:14:00,789 --> 00:14:03,889
So it's actually proof of
proof of work because, like,

338
00:14:03,899 --> 00:14:05,939
you, it's still assumptional.

339
00:14:06,199 --> 00:14:10,099
Like, you assume that the work was
put in because the odds that it wasn't

340
00:14:10,109 --> 00:14:12,219
put in are so, so high, so, so, yeah.

341
00:14:12,609 --> 00:14:17,279
And the same is true for, like,
everything, and in, in real life, uh,

342
00:14:17,299 --> 00:14:20,749
like, you get these Bitcoiners that
think that just because they do the

343
00:14:20,749 --> 00:14:23,639
work, their work is valuable somehow.

344
00:14:24,314 --> 00:14:27,724
Like the guy that's writing
the word Bitcoin, uh, 40, 000

345
00:14:27,734 --> 00:14:28,854
times in a book or something.

346
00:14:28,864 --> 00:14:32,254
Like, uh, it's like, yeah, but
nobody asked you to do that.

347
00:14:32,264 --> 00:14:34,024
The market didn't ask for that.

348
00:14:34,254 --> 00:14:38,084
So, so, so what's true in real
life is, is, is the results.

349
00:14:38,094 --> 00:14:39,854
That's, that's what actually matters.

350
00:14:39,904 --> 00:14:42,634
Like, uh, and we use the, uh, example of.

351
00:14:43,084 --> 00:14:45,904
Uh, bill Murray, for instance,
the actor who made a whole

352
00:14:45,904 --> 00:14:47,644
career outta not giving a fuck.

353
00:14:47,704 --> 00:14:48,454
It's wonderful.

354
00:14:48,484 --> 00:14:49,384
Like, I love the guy.

355
00:14:49,474 --> 00:14:53,614
Uh, but, but, but it took work
to, to, to not work that much.

356
00:14:53,614 --> 00:14:57,424
I guess , but, but, but it's
the result that matters.

357
00:14:57,424 --> 00:14:59,044
And, and that's what
we're trying to promote.

358
00:14:59,044 --> 00:15:02,544
And even in Bitcoin, like everything
in Bitcoin is probabilistic.

359
00:15:02,544 --> 00:15:03,864
The only, the only.

360
00:15:04,679 --> 00:15:08,819
Uh, reason that you think that the
work was put in is because the, the

361
00:15:08,819 --> 00:15:10,499
hash starts with that many zeroes.

362
00:15:10,559 --> 00:15:14,899
So you, you see that thing in, oh,
this guy probably put in a lot of work.

363
00:15:14,959 --> 00:15:17,149
And that's also like, why, why you own

364
00:15:17,544 --> 00:15:18,364
That's the difference.

365
00:15:18,529 --> 00:15:20,239
Well, almost certain.

366
00:15:20,324 --> 00:15:21,184
But I agree with you.

367
00:15:21,254 --> 00:15:21,804
I agree with you.

368
00:15:21,824 --> 00:15:22,234
No, no, no.

369
00:15:22,234 --> 00:15:26,174
That's what you're a philosopher.

370
00:15:26,439 --> 00:15:26,879
Yeah.

371
00:15:26,879 --> 00:15:30,839
And, and, and just, just the, to, to
finish the point, the, all the other

372
00:15:30,839 --> 00:15:32,489
things are probabilistic in Bitcoin too.

373
00:15:32,639 --> 00:15:35,879
So the, the only reason that you
think that you own the Bitcoin,

374
00:15:35,879 --> 00:15:39,209
because you know the private key
is because you know the odds that.

375
00:15:39,324 --> 00:15:43,694
Someone else knows them is so low that is
you practically own them for all practical

376
00:15:43,694 --> 00:15:50,364
purposes And the 21 million limit like you
you know that that will not change Because

377
00:15:50,364 --> 00:15:54,204
the probability that all the bitcoiners
will agree on changing it is so low.

378
00:15:54,264 --> 00:15:55,824
So everything is probabilistic.

379
00:15:55,824 --> 00:15:56,574
Really.

380
00:15:56,649 --> 00:15:56,939
Yeah.

381
00:15:57,319 --> 00:15:57,539
No,

382
00:15:58,244 --> 00:16:00,924
But then you're getting into
quantum, basically, you're

383
00:16:00,934 --> 00:16:02,304
getting into the depths of,

384
00:16:02,444 --> 00:16:02,984
almost

385
00:16:03,054 --> 00:16:04,834
everything is probabilistic
at the day, right?

386
00:16:05,204 --> 00:16:09,144
Um, and I mean, that gets into attention
of a question that I had cause before

387
00:16:09,144 --> 00:16:11,814
getting into studying economics, I
actually wanted to do physics and

388
00:16:11,814 --> 00:16:13,554
particle physics and go to CERN.

389
00:16:13,794 --> 00:16:14,714
That was like my dream.

390
00:16:14,954 --> 00:16:16,824
But then my dad told me
what it actually meant.

391
00:16:16,864 --> 00:16:20,534
And that meant sitting in front of
a computer 2000 meters below earth,

392
00:16:20,804 --> 00:16:24,194
but like, you know, 400 meters
below earth and just repeating the

393
00:16:24,194 --> 00:16:25,934
same analysis a thousand times.

394
00:16:25,934 --> 00:16:26,264
And I was like,

395
00:16:26,426 --> 00:16:26,756
No.

396
00:16:26,821 --> 00:16:31,376
And Bitcoin is the, like CERN
is the particle accelerator

397
00:16:31,376 --> 00:16:32,756
for physics nerds, right?

398
00:16:32,756 --> 00:16:32,966
Yeah.

399
00:16:33,141 --> 00:16:37,706
And Bitcoin is the testicle accelerator
for, for, for Austrian economics

400
00:16:37,706 --> 00:16:39,626
nerds, . And that's much more fun.

401
00:16:40,066 --> 00:16:40,566
Exactly.

402
00:16:40,756 --> 00:16:44,956
At that point, I didn't know that, but
like, uh, but, but one of the questions

403
00:16:44,956 --> 00:16:47,876
that I had back then, and that gets back
to this thing of like, is everything

404
00:16:47,876 --> 00:16:52,306
probabilities or everything or is anything
certain is the fact that if you just take.

405
00:16:53,281 --> 00:16:57,691
Normal physics, like, you know,
Newtonian or like Einsteinian physics,

406
00:16:57,701 --> 00:17:01,481
let's say, like relativity, like
higher levels of magnitude than

407
00:17:01,481 --> 00:17:03,111
us, then everything is certain.

408
00:17:03,271 --> 00:17:05,651
Like if I, it's certain that if I
threw a ball, it's going to have

409
00:17:05,651 --> 00:17:09,001
this with these initial things,
then it's going to end up there.

410
00:17:09,001 --> 00:17:12,186
But at that point, if you think
this way, Then if we knew all of

411
00:17:12,186 --> 00:17:18,116
the initial setup for, before the
big bang, so all of the, how every

412
00:17:18,116 --> 00:17:21,076
particle was arranged, what their spin
was, what the direction was, all of

413
00:17:21,076 --> 00:17:23,976
that, then we don't have free range.

414
00:17:24,016 --> 00:17:26,796
We are just the result of that, right?

415
00:17:27,026 --> 00:17:32,106
But then when you look into quantum, you
realize that everything is probabilistic.

416
00:17:32,116 --> 00:17:33,256
We like electrons.

417
00:17:33,286 --> 00:17:37,516
They don't actually spin around
the, the, the nucleus of the

418
00:17:37,516 --> 00:17:38,466
neutrons and the protons.

419
00:17:38,706 --> 00:17:40,926
They just are in probabilistic.

420
00:17:41,491 --> 00:17:45,341
Clouds, like clouds of probabilities
in different high levels of energy.

421
00:17:45,521 --> 00:17:50,051
And that's also when we get into
like chips, that's super interesting

422
00:17:50,051 --> 00:17:54,021
because now we're hitting, um, that,
well, people are going to think, well,

423
00:17:54,041 --> 00:17:55,151
why are we going to get into chips?

424
00:17:55,531 --> 00:17:56,661
Does this guy have
anything to do with that?

425
00:17:56,661 --> 00:17:59,481
But once we finish my
TLDR, which is going to be.

426
00:18:00,146 --> 00:18:00,466
Very

427
00:18:00,471 --> 00:18:00,851
long.

428
00:18:01,096 --> 00:18:03,836
but listen to instead
of too long didn't read.

429
00:18:04,266 --> 00:18:07,686
Um, like that's one of the things
I'm a Bitcoin mining analyst.

430
00:18:07,686 --> 00:18:08,936
So that's one of the
things that I get into.

431
00:18:08,936 --> 00:18:09,216
Right.

432
00:18:09,466 --> 00:18:16,146
And, um, and with this thing of like
quantum and electrons being just like, uh,

433
00:18:16,156 --> 00:18:22,811
waves of probabilities, we are now in this
day and age hitting the The end of the

434
00:18:22,811 --> 00:18:27,281
Moore's law of tic tac of every two years,
you, you multiply times two and then you

435
00:18:27,281 --> 00:18:31,861
improve and then you multiply it times
two, the amount of transistors, right?

436
00:18:34,121 --> 00:18:39,231
We're hitting a limit on that because now
our gates, our logic gates, as they're

437
00:18:39,231 --> 00:18:45,331
known, they're getting so small, so tiny
that there is a non zero probability

438
00:18:45,351 --> 00:18:48,561
that electrons will just jump over
the gate and they will not register.

439
00:18:48,796 --> 00:18:50,246
So that's actually a problem, right?

440
00:18:50,526 --> 00:18:52,596
Um, so, so that's super interesting.

441
00:18:52,596 --> 00:18:57,886
And that's leading to now, instead
of having just 2D chips, just flat

442
00:18:57,896 --> 00:19:00,636
surface chips, they're starting to,
AMD is starting to do stuff like

443
00:19:00,646 --> 00:19:04,796
3D chips where they like stack them
up this way in the same die size,

444
00:19:04,796 --> 00:19:07,626
you can have more transistors,
but you're going vertical, right?

445
00:19:07,786 --> 00:19:09,206
Anyway, that's a different topic.

446
00:19:09,416 --> 00:19:10,916
Let's finish the TLDR.

447
00:19:10,926 --> 00:19:12,026
What do you want to go into?

448
00:19:12,066 --> 00:19:12,336
Like

449
00:19:12,941 --> 00:19:14,001
Yeah, no, no, that's it.

450
00:19:14,556 --> 00:19:18,006
Yeah, wrap up your, and the proof of
work tangent, I mean, the only thing

451
00:19:18,006 --> 00:19:21,396
I wanted to get at was, like, sort of,
what's the, what was the thing that

452
00:19:21,396 --> 00:19:25,106
clicked for you, that, that, uh, got
you to understand that, so I think

453
00:19:25,106 --> 00:19:26,996
we, I think we tangented, and so,

454
00:19:27,331 --> 00:19:30,771
But I think what Knut said basically
is that, like, when you see

455
00:19:30,771 --> 00:19:34,331
someone that is very muscular, for
example, that is proof of results.

456
00:19:34,471 --> 00:19:37,521
But that proof of results also
implies that there was work, there was

457
00:19:37,941 --> 00:19:39,421
That there was probably work.

458
00:19:39,741 --> 00:19:41,181
Or just very good use.

459
00:19:41,451 --> 00:19:42,171
Stop muddling.

460
00:19:42,306 --> 00:19:45,866
But probably in essence, no, no, but
that's a very scientific thing, right?

461
00:19:45,906 --> 00:19:48,366
Science, scientists, they never claim
anything is a hundred percent true.

462
00:19:48,366 --> 00:19:49,366
They just claim it's 99.

463
00:19:49,366 --> 00:19:50,846
99%.

464
00:19:50,846 --> 00:19:52,116
It's beyond reasonable, right?

465
00:19:52,116 --> 00:19:53,436
Like with the jurors,

466
00:19:53,461 --> 00:19:53,621
It's

467
00:19:53,621 --> 00:19:55,341
the best theory we have at the moment.

468
00:19:55,881 --> 00:19:56,731
Until debunked.

469
00:19:56,866 --> 00:19:57,396
exactly.

470
00:19:57,406 --> 00:20:00,666
And in this case with energy
though, it's kind of like obvious.

471
00:20:00,666 --> 00:20:05,726
If someone hits the gym every day and you
see them later on, there will be results.

472
00:20:05,766 --> 00:20:09,046
Unless they're like a total tool
that like what you said, right?

473
00:20:09,046 --> 00:20:10,126
Cause you can just go to the gym.

474
00:20:10,226 --> 00:20:10,926
All of these girls just.

475
00:20:11,246 --> 00:20:12,656
Lifting one kilo weight.

476
00:20:12,786 --> 00:20:13,816
There's no results there.

477
00:20:13,816 --> 00:20:15,316
You need to lift heavy, for example.

478
00:20:15,426 --> 00:20:16,736
But then that's just one thing.

479
00:20:16,916 --> 00:20:20,426
But then in anything else, like if you
wrote a book, that's proof of work.

480
00:20:20,446 --> 00:20:22,276
You had to sit down and do it.

481
00:20:22,286 --> 00:20:26,246
Even if it was with AI, you had
to sit down and at some point, use

482
00:20:26,276 --> 00:20:28,596
calories, use energy to do that.

483
00:20:28,916 --> 00:20:30,466
Anything that's worth anything.

484
00:20:30,556 --> 00:20:33,226
If we're talking, if we're
breathing, if we are walking,

485
00:20:33,226 --> 00:20:35,156
if we're thinking, that's watts.

486
00:20:35,196 --> 00:20:38,121
And if that's worth
anything, That's energy.

487
00:20:38,601 --> 00:20:40,731
And what is not proof of work?

488
00:20:42,031 --> 00:20:43,941
zero, zero, zero, zero, print.

489
00:20:44,671 --> 00:20:45,961
That's made up.

490
00:20:45,981 --> 00:20:46,921
That doesn't exist.

491
00:20:46,941 --> 00:20:49,761
That's, that's Mickey Mouse economics.

492
00:20:50,131 --> 00:20:50,491
You know?

493
00:20:51,746 --> 00:20:54,686
And that, the moment you realize
that that's how our system

494
00:20:54,686 --> 00:20:57,086
works so far, and that's what I
realized at the moment, right?

495
00:20:57,096 --> 00:21:01,406
Like we have been living with a
Mickey Mouse, proof of nothing,

496
00:21:01,626 --> 00:21:06,036
uh, proof of stake, if you might
say, equal proof of nothing, right?

497
00:21:06,276 --> 00:21:07,066
A system.

498
00:21:07,236 --> 00:21:13,436
And we finally, for the first time,
we figured out a proper universally,

499
00:21:13,596 --> 00:21:15,316
I don't know, like coherent system.

500
00:21:15,636 --> 00:21:19,626
Uh, proof of work system, like
it, it, it aligns with the laws of

501
00:21:19,676 --> 00:21:21,436
physics of everything that we do.

502
00:21:23,086 --> 00:21:24,056
That was the moment.

503
00:21:24,311 --> 00:21:28,271
It ties the subjective world
to the objective world.

504
00:21:28,381 --> 00:21:31,441
Like, it's the bridge between
human action and physics.

505
00:21:31,441 --> 00:21:33,564
Like, it's, it's, it's,
uh, it's beautiful.

506
00:21:33,946 --> 00:21:34,146
Only

507
00:21:34,566 --> 00:21:34,946
though, right?

508
00:21:35,016 --> 00:21:35,716
Only probably.

509
00:21:36,036 --> 00:21:36,846
It probably does.

510
00:21:36,996 --> 00:21:37,616
Yes, exactly.

511
00:21:38,608 --> 00:21:44,936
The thing with probabilistic, it's
like, it's connected to free will

512
00:21:44,946 --> 00:21:48,576
somehow, and I don't know exactly
how, but like, if the universe was

513
00:21:48,796 --> 00:21:50,396
deterministic, free will couldn't exist.

514
00:21:50,936 --> 00:21:54,006
No, so it's, uh, and maybe
it doesn't, by the way.

515
00:21:55,336 --> 00:21:57,596
oh, you mean the whole matrix
thing, like we are in a

516
00:21:57,756 --> 00:22:02,206
Well, well, we can't, we can't know
if it exists, but, but we have to

517
00:22:02,216 --> 00:22:05,666
act as if it does because we have no
choice but to have free will, right?

518
00:22:07,086 --> 00:22:10,566
So it's a, it's a paradox in itself, but
like, you're going to love the book, by

519
00:22:10,566 --> 00:22:12,356
the way, but let's not get into that.

520
00:22:12,406 --> 00:22:15,188
Let's finish the TLDR and get on with

521
00:22:15,226 --> 00:22:18,376
now on it's kind of like very quick
because the moment I realized that like

522
00:22:18,376 --> 00:22:22,646
I still had a bag of shit coins and over
the next two months I just basically sold

523
00:22:22,646 --> 00:22:24,786
them all at a loss or at whatever point.

524
00:22:24,786 --> 00:22:25,476
I just didn't care.

525
00:22:25,476 --> 00:22:30,666
I realized that better to have some
sats than have some whatever shit coins,

526
00:22:30,886 --> 00:22:33,236
you know, that yeah, perhaps they're
going to pump better and whatever.

527
00:22:33,236 --> 00:22:35,056
But the way I'm going to sleep.

528
00:22:35,546 --> 00:22:37,266
At night, and it was 100 percent true.

529
00:22:37,266 --> 00:22:40,616
I had friends still in crypto
when, uh, when 2RO, 3RO's capital

530
00:22:40,616 --> 00:22:42,196
collapsed, when FTX went down.

531
00:22:42,436 --> 00:22:44,436
They were like, Oh my God,
what's happening with my coins?

532
00:22:44,726 --> 00:22:46,126
I was sleeping like a baby.

533
00:22:46,136 --> 00:22:46,406
Why?

534
00:22:46,456 --> 00:22:49,306
Because my coins were on cold
storage and only on Bitcoin.

535
00:22:49,506 --> 00:22:49,886
That's it.

536
00:22:49,896 --> 00:22:52,836
But anyway, so I, I
finished the presentation.

537
00:22:52,886 --> 00:22:53,446
I became a Bitcoiner.

538
00:22:53,766 --> 00:22:55,466
I presented it to the,
to the, to the community.

539
00:22:56,086 --> 00:22:58,026
to a team and they were quite impressed.

540
00:22:58,026 --> 00:23:01,656
So they were like, would you be
willing to not go to college for

541
00:23:01,656 --> 00:23:02,976
a while and just work with us?

542
00:23:02,976 --> 00:23:04,706
And I was like, a hundred
percent, let's do that.

543
00:23:04,976 --> 00:23:08,266
So I just jumped, uh,
headfirst into the opportunity.

544
00:23:08,506 --> 00:23:12,486
And over the course of the following
year, I didn't go to class.

545
00:23:12,516 --> 00:23:17,546
I in Barcelona or in Erasmus, cause,
uh, I was going, I was in Frankfurt,

546
00:23:17,546 --> 00:23:19,286
but I was going to Erasmus in Mannheim.

547
00:23:19,606 --> 00:23:25,886
Uh, so, but I basically did not attend
class and, um, and I just worked for them,

548
00:23:25,956 --> 00:23:30,636
uh, dove deeper into Bitcoin, especially,
uh, specifically Bitcoin mining, because,

549
00:23:30,636 --> 00:23:34,846
uh, the position that I ended up crafting
for myself was like Bitcoin mining

550
00:23:34,846 --> 00:23:39,426
analyst, uh, which encompasses also, like,
Knowing everything else about crypto.

551
00:23:39,666 --> 00:23:41,976
But the funny thing is I
became like an internal crypto

552
00:23:42,026 --> 00:23:43,546
consultants for the company.

553
00:23:43,686 --> 00:23:46,006
And anytime they would come to me and
be like, Hey, what do you think about

554
00:23:46,016 --> 00:23:47,176
starting something with this crypto?

555
00:23:47,176 --> 00:23:48,636
I will be like, Hmm, okay.

556
00:23:48,636 --> 00:23:49,386
Interesting.

557
00:23:49,626 --> 00:23:51,446
Two days later, no, actually no.

558
00:23:52,056 --> 00:23:53,836
Without doing any work,
I would just get back.

559
00:23:53,836 --> 00:23:55,446
Like, I don't think it's a good idea.

560
00:23:55,446 --> 00:23:59,466
Yeah, exactly.

561
00:23:59,516 --> 00:24:00,676
Cause it's, it's a shit coin.

562
00:24:00,866 --> 00:24:01,106
Yeah.

563
00:24:01,106 --> 00:24:04,496
And financial advisor is the easiest job
in the world for the next hundred years.

564
00:24:04,901 --> 00:24:08,321
If exactly, if you're a Bitcoin
, it's your work is cut out for you.

565
00:24:08,381 --> 00:24:09,191
That's that easy.

566
00:24:09,527 --> 00:24:12,797
Um, but yeah, for example, at one
point they even came to me, I was like.

567
00:24:13,772 --> 00:24:15,842
February, March of 2022.

568
00:24:16,022 --> 00:24:19,562
So Bitcoin had already touched 69 K, 70 K.

569
00:24:19,562 --> 00:24:22,262
And what's going down
peoples, I know, right?

570
00:24:23,102 --> 00:24:28,652
nice number . This, this cycle, we need
to hit four 20 K that we just need to,

571
00:24:29,042 --> 00:24:33,782
for the, you know, for the memes, for
the lows, uh, Keck, all of that stuff,

572
00:24:35,372 --> 00:24:39,452
Um, but they came to me with the
helium, like, oh, we should start

573
00:24:39,452 --> 00:24:40,847
doing the helium Internet of things.

574
00:24:41,482 --> 00:24:43,172
Things, whatever, whatever.

575
00:24:43,412 --> 00:24:43,822
And I was like,

576
00:24:44,067 --> 00:24:44,740
Helium?

577
00:24:45,092 --> 00:24:45,942
it was a shit coin.

578
00:24:46,132 --> 00:24:50,132
And apparently it was like, if you
got a node, which they sent you,

579
00:24:50,132 --> 00:24:51,282
it would be like super profitable.

580
00:24:51,282 --> 00:24:54,552
You buy for 300 and in two months
you've already done 300 whatnot.

581
00:24:54,932 --> 00:24:58,342
And because you know, it's IOT,
all of these things, like, you

582
00:24:58,342 --> 00:25:03,864
know, the volts and the like, uh,
yes, it's making so much money.

583
00:25:03,864 --> 00:25:05,132
But, uh,

584
00:25:09,872 --> 00:25:12,512
and, and the funny thing
is I told them, yeah, no.

585
00:25:13,147 --> 00:25:15,747
Three months later, it was discovered
that they had been lying about

586
00:25:15,747 --> 00:25:18,917
their partnerships with Volt and
well, you know, with those like last

587
00:25:18,917 --> 00:25:22,187
mile scooters and with Uber, they
had been basically lying about it.

588
00:25:22,437 --> 00:25:27,037
And therefore the coin just basically,
weird, it went to zero basically.

589
00:25:27,047 --> 00:25:27,377
So

590
00:25:27,987 --> 00:25:28,017
Big

591
00:25:28,257 --> 00:25:29,107
who would have thought?

592
00:25:29,117 --> 00:25:33,072
I mean, Thank God I told them for
some weird reason that it was a

593
00:25:33,072 --> 00:25:37,012
shitcoin, but anyway, but anyway, so
then I worked for one year with them.

594
00:25:37,322 --> 00:25:40,912
Um, in between, I also started
getting involved with stuff like

595
00:25:40,912 --> 00:25:43,812
European Bitcoiners, you know, at a
European level, but also organizing

596
00:25:43,822 --> 00:25:46,772
the meetups in Barcelona, which by
the way, you're invited any of you

597
00:25:46,772 --> 00:25:50,032
two guys to come to Barcelona and
we'll try to get a meetup together.

598
00:25:50,382 --> 00:25:50,982
Um,

599
00:25:51,967 --> 00:25:52,117
yeah,

600
00:25:52,117 --> 00:25:53,457
I also love Barcelona.

601
00:25:53,802 --> 00:25:57,187
and also the meetup has a, uh, Like
the whole story of Barcelona and the

602
00:25:57,187 --> 00:26:00,287
meetup is quite interesting because
there used to be one, COVID killed it.

603
00:26:00,287 --> 00:26:04,207
And then somehow we found ourselves
again in a new generation, the

604
00:26:04,207 --> 00:26:05,557
new guard, as we like to say it.

605
00:26:05,857 --> 00:26:10,247
And now we're like one of the best
meetups in the Hispanic community.

606
00:26:10,517 --> 00:26:11,407
So, and it's, and it's

607
00:26:11,547 --> 00:26:13,817
Did Covid sort of cleanse
out the shitcoiners?

608
00:26:14,017 --> 00:26:15,087
Yes.

609
00:26:15,197 --> 00:26:16,087
Yes.

610
00:26:16,117 --> 00:26:16,607
In a way.

611
00:26:16,607 --> 00:26:17,337
Yes.

612
00:26:17,587 --> 00:26:22,147
Because one of our, a few months after
creating the meetup, the new meetup

613
00:26:22,147 --> 00:26:26,092
in Barcelona, actually one of the old
guard Uh, noticed us and he was like,

614
00:26:26,092 --> 00:26:27,622
Hey, you guys are doing meetups, right?

615
00:26:27,622 --> 00:26:28,552
And we were like, oh shit.

616
00:26:28,552 --> 00:26:29,392
He's the original guy.

617
00:26:29,722 --> 00:26:32,272
And then he came in and
now we're super chill.

618
00:26:32,272 --> 00:26:34,582
He's part of the new guard,
so to speak with us, and he's

619
00:26:34,612 --> 00:26:36,052
helping us organize every meetup.

620
00:26:36,412 --> 00:26:37,462
Uh, he's part of the team.

621
00:26:37,732 --> 00:26:41,962
And, um, and he would tell us stories
of the last couple of years, you

622
00:26:41,962 --> 00:26:44,812
know, 2017 to 2019 before covid.

623
00:26:45,292 --> 00:26:48,212
And, you know, creative
destruction is positive.

624
00:26:49,067 --> 00:26:53,487
This is so great because there's an actual
evolutionary perspective to, like, the

625
00:26:53,507 --> 00:27:00,367
COVID measures doing an evolutionary thing
and making, like, ANCAPs and Bitcoiners

626
00:27:00,367 --> 00:27:02,257
survive better, like, in the long run.

627
00:27:02,352 --> 00:27:06,062
What is it, uh, Alan Farrington's,
um, Only the Strong Survive, right?

628
00:27:06,452 --> 00:27:08,862
Uh, the whole, yeah, 100%.

629
00:27:09,222 --> 00:27:14,222
Anyway, so that happens, but then,
uh, I was already organizing meetups,

630
00:27:14,262 --> 00:27:17,922
um, part of European Bitcoiners,
like, you know, but this thing is a

631
00:27:17,952 --> 00:27:23,512
bit of a decentralized, pleb driven,
volunteer thing, so it's, it's morphed

632
00:27:23,562 --> 00:27:27,292
a bit over the years, yeah, because
volunteers come and volunteers go, right?

633
00:27:27,292 --> 00:27:28,812
We don't force anyone,
it's like Bitcoin, right?

634
00:27:29,152 --> 00:27:33,052
Uh, which also, like, When you do
this type of stuff, it gives you so

635
00:27:33,052 --> 00:27:36,772
much more perspective for how hard
it was the first years in Bitcoin,

636
00:27:36,972 --> 00:27:38,932
like trying to get anyone involved.

637
00:27:39,182 --> 00:27:43,582
And that also brings new appreciation
for how important Hal Finney was.

638
00:27:43,782 --> 00:27:50,952
Like, like this man, we would not be here
today without Hal Finney, like at all.

639
00:27:50,972 --> 00:27:54,692
Like we owe Hal Finney everything,
like, or Ross Ulbricht.

640
00:27:55,084 --> 00:27:55,332
Yes.

641
00:27:55,672 --> 00:28:00,752
Um, Hats off if I had one for him and
for Ross Ulbricht as well, and for Marty

642
00:28:00,752 --> 00:28:02,482
Malmy and all of these guys, early guys.

643
00:28:02,782 --> 00:28:04,762
But anyway, so it brings
you new appreciation.

644
00:28:05,442 --> 00:28:08,652
But then I had been already working
for them for a full year, I still

645
00:28:08,652 --> 00:28:13,207
had my studies halfway through, and a
combination of Few things like a lot

646
00:28:13,207 --> 00:28:16,697
of social pressure from one end, also
from the company, they were like, it's

647
00:28:16,697 --> 00:28:19,027
still German fiat company in a way.

648
00:28:19,027 --> 00:28:21,807
And they were like, we don't want
to support someone dropping college.

649
00:28:21,807 --> 00:28:25,567
And, and, and my family also
like, are you sure about this?

650
00:28:25,567 --> 00:28:26,857
And the price going down.

651
00:28:26,857 --> 00:28:29,397
And I was also tired of
living by myself in Frankfurt.

652
00:28:29,437 --> 00:28:30,917
So I was, you know what, fuck it.

653
00:28:30,917 --> 00:28:32,707
I'll go back to, you know,
living the fiat life.

654
00:28:33,127 --> 00:28:36,927
Uh, my mom cooks, I just clean
sometimes and, and, you know,

655
00:28:36,927 --> 00:28:38,047
I live at my mom's house.

656
00:28:38,047 --> 00:28:40,657
No budget balancing, no
whatever, you know, I just

657
00:28:40,747 --> 00:28:41,837
live life for a minute, right?

658
00:28:42,137 --> 00:28:43,317
So I went back to college.

659
00:28:43,367 --> 00:28:48,687
I recently finished my studies, economic
studies, uh, man, was it tough because

660
00:28:48,697 --> 00:28:53,397
the first two years of economics,
I was a, I was a fiat economist.

661
00:28:53,397 --> 00:28:53,927
I was full in.

662
00:28:53,927 --> 00:28:56,057
I was actually one of the
best in my class, but then

663
00:28:56,057 --> 00:28:57,847
I became like a mid corner.

664
00:28:58,257 --> 00:29:01,747
I studied a bit of Austrian economics,
I understood the main things, and

665
00:29:01,747 --> 00:29:02,747
then I came back and I was like.

666
00:29:03,057 --> 00:29:03,877
Aw, shit.

667
00:29:04,037 --> 00:29:05,247
I'm gonna have to lie here.

668
00:29:05,347 --> 00:29:06,767
yes, yes, yes.

669
00:29:06,927 --> 00:29:09,677
Oh, I still remember because I
managed to get one of my friends.

670
00:29:09,677 --> 00:29:13,447
Um, I, I turned him into a Bitcoin,
I orange pilled him and he was

671
00:29:13,447 --> 00:29:16,937
with me in class and we had a
macroeconomics 2 class and at one

672
00:29:16,937 --> 00:29:20,317
point the teacher, we had something
about money printing and whatnot.

673
00:29:20,367 --> 00:29:23,037
They actually recognized that one of
the revenue streams for the government

674
00:29:23,057 --> 00:29:25,077
was seniorage, which was printing.

675
00:29:25,457 --> 00:29:28,237
And I was trying to, you know,
like, It's like poke the bear kind

676
00:29:28,237 --> 00:29:31,917
of, uh, into like saying that, Hey,
it's basically stealing, you know?

677
00:29:32,147 --> 00:29:34,897
And, and, and inflation is, comes
basically from money printing.

678
00:29:35,177 --> 00:29:37,887
And the teacher was so adamant
about like, no, no, no.

679
00:29:38,197 --> 00:29:42,737
And anyway, it was also a weird thing
cause like you don't want your teacher

680
00:29:42,737 --> 00:29:45,667
to hate you because then the classes
were small enough that they would know

681
00:29:45,667 --> 00:29:47,667
you and how you write and all of that.

682
00:29:47,667 --> 00:29:50,257
So if they wanted to, they could
just fail your class all the

683
00:29:50,257 --> 00:29:51,587
time and then you don't pass.

684
00:29:51,587 --> 00:29:51,757
Right.

685
00:29:51,757 --> 00:29:55,297
So this power imbalance made it so at
one point, me and my friend, we had

686
00:29:55,297 --> 00:29:59,612
to just like Bitter Tongues and eat
the shit and say thank you and then

687
00:30:00,012 --> 00:30:02,252
puke it out the lies on the exam.

688
00:30:02,282 --> 00:30:03,942
And that was a great exam.

689
00:30:04,252 --> 00:30:07,512
You know, uh, we passed by
just lying through our teeth.

690
00:30:07,772 --> 00:30:09,302
But anyway, so two tough years.

691
00:30:09,302 --> 00:30:12,242
I still want to do the analysis
of my grades of like first year.

692
00:30:12,242 --> 00:30:14,402
What was my average grade second year?

693
00:30:14,572 --> 00:30:16,172
And then see the drop off afterwards.

694
00:30:16,622 --> 00:30:19,282
I mean, just, just
unpack that for a minute.

695
00:30:19,902 --> 00:30:25,752
How, how horrible is it that in
order to get a degree in economics,

696
00:30:25,992 --> 00:30:30,952
you need to admit that theft is
not only okay, but necessary?

697
00:30:31,362 --> 00:30:33,982
Like it's so vile, it's so vulgar.

698
00:30:34,652 --> 00:30:38,932
And it's worse than that because for
example, um, many of the changes that

699
00:30:38,932 --> 00:30:43,072
were made to the course over the years,
Uh, weren't properly communicated even to

700
00:30:43,072 --> 00:30:46,302
the teachers, like, for example, at the
beginning of the, my course, I was doing

701
00:30:46,302 --> 00:30:47,812
economics and English, not just economics.

702
00:30:47,852 --> 00:30:51,552
I'm in Spain, so usually classes and
And the universities are in Spanish,

703
00:30:51,552 --> 00:30:55,132
but I chose to do economics in English,
so it was more of an elite thing, so to

704
00:30:55,132 --> 00:30:57,452
speak, not elite, it was still a public
school, but you know, like, it was a

705
00:30:57,632 --> 00:31:00,952
smaller set and the teachers, they have
been doing that for the past seven years.

706
00:31:01,312 --> 00:31:06,422
And at the beginning, there was a course
on, uh, history of economic thinking,

707
00:31:06,422 --> 00:31:10,282
so it would present you the Austrian
school, the Chicago school, you know, all

708
00:31:10,282 --> 00:31:11,682
of these other ways of thinking, right?

709
00:31:12,057 --> 00:31:16,697
But at some point between the
start of the, of the course and

710
00:31:16,707 --> 00:31:21,057
me doing it, um, they scrapped it
and they didn't tell any teachers.

711
00:31:21,127 --> 00:31:23,847
So at one point I went to a teacher
and was like, Hey, by the way,

712
00:31:23,977 --> 00:31:27,007
like, uh, when are we going to do
anything about Austrian economics?

713
00:31:27,007 --> 00:31:29,117
And you know, like the Chicago monitors.

714
00:31:29,157 --> 00:31:32,737
Cause I also kind of want to like study
the enemy to like properly understand

715
00:31:32,737 --> 00:31:33,657
them and be able to refute them.

716
00:31:33,657 --> 00:31:33,867
Right.

717
00:31:33,867 --> 00:31:36,587
And also study our own things,
you know, Austrian economics

718
00:31:36,587 --> 00:31:37,617
and also behavioral economics.

719
00:31:37,827 --> 00:31:40,057
That's something I've been
getting more or less into.

720
00:31:40,427 --> 00:31:43,697
Uh, I mean, my thesis was on Bitcoin and
behavioral economics, so that's that.

721
00:31:43,987 --> 00:31:47,747
Um, and, and the teacher was like,
oh, you haven't had a class yet?

722
00:31:47,767 --> 00:31:49,527
And I was like, that was
in the third year, right?

723
00:31:49,527 --> 00:31:51,067
After going back.

724
00:31:51,127 --> 00:31:53,707
And I was like, no, it was
like, oh, there used to be one.

725
00:31:53,717 --> 00:31:55,217
And I'm like, wait, you scrapped it?

726
00:31:55,217 --> 00:31:56,397
And you're not even aware of that?

727
00:31:56,437 --> 00:32:00,467
Like the, the, the college, they
just scrapped it and didn't tell you.

728
00:32:00,727 --> 00:32:01,817
And then going back to your question.

729
00:32:01,817 --> 00:32:03,187
So that's one of the first things, right?

730
00:32:03,357 --> 00:32:07,487
This is like, Covert propaganda
of like, we're just going to scrap

731
00:32:07,487 --> 00:32:09,907
the things we don't like and keep
the things that we like, right?

732
00:32:10,207 --> 00:32:15,547
And then, I mean, it wasn't that
horrible because there was no other way.

733
00:32:15,617 --> 00:32:20,687
Like, they build it in a way, they
build this world where the answers

734
00:32:20,687 --> 00:32:23,487
that the teacher gives you, because
you haven't seen anything else, right?

735
00:32:23,487 --> 00:32:27,137
The Austrian school doesn't exist, the
behavioral economics school doesn't exist,

736
00:32:27,147 --> 00:32:28,867
the Chicago school doesn't exist, right?

737
00:32:28,867 --> 00:32:32,292
So, So, the only thing, the only
economics that is valid and real is the

738
00:32:32,292 --> 00:32:33,682
ones that the teacher present to you.

739
00:32:34,032 --> 00:32:35,802
And whatever they present
to you, that's the truth.

740
00:32:36,162 --> 00:32:39,272
And if they don't say, they
just say seniorage, right?

741
00:32:39,272 --> 00:32:41,392
Oh yeah, part of the
revenue from the government.

742
00:32:41,412 --> 00:32:45,102
You know, it's, it's taxes, it's, I think
it was debt also, even though I was like,

743
00:32:45,102 --> 00:32:46,802
but isn't that also taxes in the future?

744
00:32:46,802 --> 00:32:50,522
But anyway, and then seniorage, uh,
which I was like, isn't that also taxes?

745
00:32:50,692 --> 00:32:53,072
But anyway, um, but the
teacher didn't say that, right?

746
00:32:53,072 --> 00:32:56,392
And they have, and they have, of
course, the authority in the class.

747
00:32:56,392 --> 00:32:56,442
Right.

748
00:32:56,442 --> 00:32:56,457
Right.

749
00:32:56,727 --> 00:32:59,507
They come prepared with
their line of their story.

750
00:32:59,507 --> 00:33:01,207
They have their story clear, right?

751
00:33:01,517 --> 00:33:04,337
And kind of like properly packaged.

752
00:33:05,222 --> 00:33:09,702
There's a Rothbard book called a history
of economic thought which is really good

753
00:33:09,702 --> 00:33:13,912
if you want to study like the differences
in way And it goes back to Greek times.

754
00:33:13,912 --> 00:33:15,512
I mean, there's there's a lot there.

755
00:33:15,782 --> 00:33:17,482
Yeah, great book

756
00:33:18,398 --> 00:33:23,038
So you finished your studies, but I
assume also this whole time you've

757
00:33:23,038 --> 00:33:26,708
been active in the Bitcoin community
and all this, and now you've been

758
00:33:26,708 --> 00:33:30,398
doing a lot of great Bitcoin mining
analysis, so where are you now?

759
00:33:30,398 --> 00:33:31,938
What's your status

760
00:33:31,943 --> 00:33:34,333
The thing is, with the Bitcoin
mining analysis, it was usually

761
00:33:34,333 --> 00:33:37,313
done for my company privately,
so I didn't publish it much.

762
00:33:37,333 --> 00:33:41,193
I would just sometimes do commentary,
like for my pseudonym Twitter account.

763
00:33:41,613 --> 00:33:44,943
Which I don't have anymore, like it got
suspended for some bullshit and whatnot.

764
00:33:45,363 --> 00:33:48,263
And, uh, now I'm trying to just
be on Nostr, which I think, you

765
00:33:48,263 --> 00:33:50,053
know what, that's the way to go.

766
00:33:50,423 --> 00:33:53,313
Um, but yeah, I would just comment
on a few things sometimes, like if

767
00:33:53,313 --> 00:33:57,233
someone presented something, like I
would read it from my work, right,

768
00:33:57,233 --> 00:34:01,943
and then publish some potentially like
some responses back on Twitter, like,

769
00:34:01,943 --> 00:34:04,763
hey guys, you could have done this,
or very good on that and whatnot.

770
00:34:04,763 --> 00:34:09,153
And also, like, compilating a lot of,
like, Uh, like sources and, and, and,

771
00:34:09,233 --> 00:34:13,053
and, and reports and, and things that
people produce and also producing

772
00:34:13,053 --> 00:34:18,003
some for my own company, nothing too
high level, but like enough that they

773
00:34:18,003 --> 00:34:21,473
would have a better understanding
of what's going on, so to speak, uh,

774
00:34:21,523 --> 00:34:25,453
but of course, private, so that's why
there's nothing on Twitter about this.

775
00:34:25,793 --> 00:34:30,133
Um, So then yes, for the past two years
while I was studying economics, I was

776
00:34:30,133 --> 00:34:33,633
still going to conferences because
that, that was kind of my escape, that

777
00:34:33,633 --> 00:34:36,583
and the meetups from all the bullshit.

778
00:34:36,973 --> 00:34:41,353
And, um, so going to conferences,
um, if I could get a speaking slot

779
00:34:41,363 --> 00:34:45,653
perfect and talk a bit about Bitcoin
and whatnot, or, or what we're

780
00:34:45,663 --> 00:34:49,063
doing in the meetups or in European
Bitcoiners, uh, the community level.

781
00:34:49,343 --> 00:34:53,740
And, uh, if not, Just attend the
conference and be around Bitcoiners and

782
00:34:54,200 --> 00:34:56,560
escape the, you understand it, right?

783
00:34:56,560 --> 00:34:57,170
When you talk to a Bitcoiner.

784
00:34:58,595 --> 00:34:59,395
There's no preamble.

785
00:34:59,395 --> 00:35:00,685
You don't need to tell them anything.

786
00:35:00,695 --> 00:35:01,585
They already understand.

787
00:35:01,585 --> 00:35:02,815
They're there because there's proof of

788
00:35:02,885 --> 00:35:04,345
You can skip the formalities.

789
00:35:04,345 --> 00:35:04,615
You don't

790
00:35:04,695 --> 00:35:05,755
skip the formalities.

791
00:35:06,165 --> 00:35:06,845
You're on the same level.

792
00:35:06,845 --> 00:35:11,835
And even if you disagree, there's still a
base fundamental thing that you agree on.

793
00:35:11,865 --> 00:35:12,185
Right?

794
00:35:12,305 --> 00:35:15,315
they're above a certain
number of thresholds already

795
00:35:15,805 --> 00:35:16,255
exactly.

796
00:35:16,385 --> 00:35:19,505
And you know that this person has done
at least a certain amount of work because

797
00:35:19,505 --> 00:35:23,405
there's nothing worse than someone that
has just eaten propaganda that comes to

798
00:35:23,405 --> 00:35:28,548
you and says, Oh, but you have no idea
because the TV said, and I'm like, That's

799
00:35:28,548 --> 00:35:30,318
your only source of information, the TV.

800
00:35:31,718 --> 00:35:34,938
So, and then you cannot have real
conversations about like anything that's

801
00:35:34,938 --> 00:35:39,258
happened over the past four years, or
let alone 20 years, 15, 50 years, right?

802
00:35:39,258 --> 00:35:39,828
Like nothing.

803
00:35:39,838 --> 00:35:46,548
Like, so anyway, going to conferences
was my, my escape and, um, yeah, that's,

804
00:35:46,558 --> 00:35:51,276
uh, that's also why I'm here now,
um, to escape from that type of, you

805
00:35:51,276 --> 00:35:57,023
know, Life, so to speak, but at this
point, well, the last semester, they,

806
00:35:57,043 --> 00:36:00,938
my company called me back again, like,
Hey, Kenobi, would you like to Come back

807
00:36:00,938 --> 00:36:02,728
on board, start working for us again.

808
00:36:02,728 --> 00:36:05,728
And by the time you're
done, be full time with us.

809
00:36:05,728 --> 00:36:06,798
And I was like, why not?

810
00:36:06,808 --> 00:36:07,308
Let's do it.

811
00:36:07,318 --> 00:36:12,038
I mean, this way I can get some
sats, you know, keep stacking sats.

812
00:36:12,538 --> 00:36:15,868
And, um, and potentially I
could also go to a conference

813
00:36:15,868 --> 00:36:16,888
with my company and whatnot.

814
00:36:16,938 --> 00:36:19,268
This way, I don't have
to pay for out of pocket.

815
00:36:19,488 --> 00:36:20,808
I don't have to burn sats myself.

816
00:36:21,308 --> 00:36:26,008
Um, but, uh, once I graduated,
I decided, you know, I've been

817
00:36:26,008 --> 00:36:27,168
long enough with this company.

818
00:36:27,483 --> 00:36:30,043
Uh, let's see what's new,
uh, what's out there.

819
00:36:30,353 --> 00:36:33,913
And now I'm working for the past
kind of week and a half, uh,

820
00:36:33,953 --> 00:36:36,873
cause in Lugano, we actually
shook hands on it for demand pool.

821
00:36:36,893 --> 00:36:38,843
The first Stratum V2 pool out there.

822
00:36:39,053 --> 00:36:41,683
So helping decentralize
Bitcoin proliferate nodes.

823
00:36:41,933 --> 00:36:44,703
Cause the idea is to have
a node on every miner.

824
00:36:45,223 --> 00:36:47,843
People don't know this yet, but
miners, they don't have nodes.

825
00:36:48,343 --> 00:36:48,963
So, yeah.

826
00:36:49,603 --> 00:36:50,973
Uh, but yeah, I know.

827
00:36:51,103 --> 00:36:54,973
Yeah, let's really dig into this,
because honestly, this is a big

828
00:36:55,033 --> 00:36:57,953
area of discussion for us generally.

829
00:36:58,253 --> 00:37:02,783
We've had a lot of guys from Ocean
on, mostly just Mechanic actually.

830
00:37:02,933 --> 00:37:03,963
We've had Mechanic on a bunch

831
00:37:04,043 --> 00:37:06,723
Yeah, but we've had
other ocean proponents on

832
00:37:06,853 --> 00:37:11,143
Yeah, exactly, exactly, and I mean,
we're really big into this whole

833
00:37:11,153 --> 00:37:15,533
mining decentralization thing and
miners being able to select their

834
00:37:15,533 --> 00:37:16,823
own block template and all this.

835
00:37:17,093 --> 00:37:22,413
And so, can you explain anything and
everything about Demand Pool, Stratum V2,

836
00:37:22,413 --> 00:37:24,513
I'll leave it up to you to organize it,

837
00:37:24,753 --> 00:37:25,253
Yeah.

838
00:37:25,533 --> 00:37:32,833
So from what I know so far, um, Stratum
V1 was created in 2012 and Stratum V2

839
00:37:32,833 --> 00:37:38,243
was proposed, let's say, or like, or
like an upgrade was proposed just a few

840
00:37:38,243 --> 00:37:40,973
years later in 2014 15, if I'm not wrong.

841
00:37:40,983 --> 00:37:45,113
In 2018, Matt Corallo came up
with BetterHash, um, that was

842
00:37:45,113 --> 00:37:48,943
like the improvement to Stratum V1
or Stratum at this point, right,

843
00:37:48,943 --> 00:37:50,173
because there was no Stratum V2.

844
00:37:50,553 --> 00:37:56,663
And, um, but it had a few missing pieces,
so it didn't go anywhere, so to speak,

845
00:37:56,713 --> 00:37:58,513
but it helped set the stage for like, hey.

846
00:37:59,058 --> 00:38:00,648
We actually need to start
worrying about this.

847
00:38:00,648 --> 00:38:03,118
I mean, Hey, what happened before 2018?

848
00:38:03,788 --> 00:38:09,588
ASIC boost, you know, uh, perhaps we need
to start, you know, worrying about this.

849
00:38:09,818 --> 00:38:15,538
And then around 2020, 2021, the proper
stratum V2, like a initiative was started.

850
00:38:15,748 --> 00:38:18,598
The SRI stratum reference implementation.

851
00:38:18,888 --> 00:38:25,633
And it was a collaborative effort between
a few independent, uh, Coders, uh,

852
00:38:26,213 --> 00:38:32,153
Brains and Matt Corallo, as far as I'm
aware, please don't trust Verify, right?

853
00:38:32,193 --> 00:38:34,223
Uh, that's the story I know so far.

854
00:38:34,523 --> 00:38:37,954
Um, I've only been working for
Strataview 2 for the past two

855
00:38:37,954 --> 00:38:41,363
weeks, but I've been following on
and off for the past two weeks.

856
00:38:42,533 --> 00:38:45,073
That's why I'm kind of
aware of it to this degree.

857
00:38:45,383 --> 00:38:48,203
Um, and then for the past three
years, they've been working on

858
00:38:48,213 --> 00:38:53,223
like, you know, setting up the
basis and also figuring out all the

859
00:38:55,523 --> 00:38:59,583
problems with implementing it, like
kind of game theory, like, like

860
00:38:59,593 --> 00:39:03,583
wargaming it, like game theory,
like how, how it, how it pans out.

861
00:39:03,593 --> 00:39:09,173
Because at this point the current setup
is basically, Pools have kind of a lot of

862
00:39:09,173 --> 00:39:13,973
power because they create the templates
and they also manage the payments.

863
00:39:14,303 --> 00:39:19,613
Um, and miners, yes, they have power
in the sense that they can just switch

864
00:39:19,623 --> 00:39:23,893
pools, but at the same time, when half
of the pools are just proxies for the

865
00:39:23,893 --> 00:39:30,323
two biggest pools and the other half
of the pools, they are, let's say

866
00:39:30,453 --> 00:39:32,473
the same, but with a different color.

867
00:39:32,838 --> 00:39:37,718
Right, because at this point, it's FPPS
only everywhere, and to be honest, FPPS is

868
00:39:37,718 --> 00:39:39,788
dying, and it should die, in my opinion.

869
00:39:40,918 --> 00:39:43,468
And the biggest winners will
be miners, because they will

870
00:39:43,468 --> 00:39:44,478
get paid more, but anyway.

871
00:39:44,828 --> 00:39:48,328
Um, when that's the setup, miners
don't really have that much power.

872
00:39:48,688 --> 00:39:51,488
Like, Oh yeah, but they can
just redirect the hash rate.

873
00:39:51,888 --> 00:39:52,588
Yes, they can.

874
00:39:52,598 --> 00:39:56,558
But first of all, there's two types
of miners, publicly traded and let's

875
00:39:56,558 --> 00:40:02,888
say public and let's say bigger miners
like enterprise miners and say not

876
00:40:02,888 --> 00:40:06,648
smaller, but medium to small miners,
you know, more nimble, more agile.

877
00:40:07,498 --> 00:40:09,028
These guys, yes, they can do that.

878
00:40:09,258 --> 00:40:12,978
But the bigger ones, many of
them, they have some sort of,

879
00:40:13,008 --> 00:40:18,438
let's say Nash equilibrium where
trying to get out of it is a bit.

880
00:40:18,438 --> 00:40:22,588
It's a bit tough, uh, because from
a regulatory perspective, from a

881
00:40:22,588 --> 00:40:28,598
tax perspective, uh, they are in
this, like, you know, like, like

882
00:40:28,598 --> 00:40:30,308
a false Nash equilibrium, right?

883
00:40:30,308 --> 00:40:35,128
I don't know if you've seen those things
of like a hill with like a false, uh,

884
00:40:35,138 --> 00:40:37,788
with like a ridge and then the ball
falls there and it just stays there

885
00:40:37,788 --> 00:40:40,398
and it's like a false equilibrium and
you just need to get it over to like

886
00:40:40,398 --> 00:40:43,578
then properly go to the right place
from a game theoretical perspective.

887
00:40:43,628 --> 00:40:44,368
That's it, right?

888
00:40:44,738 --> 00:40:45,968
And that's where they're at right now.

889
00:40:45,968 --> 00:40:47,748
It's like a false equilibrium.

890
00:40:48,068 --> 00:40:48,548
Where

891
00:40:49,148 --> 00:40:50,658
Too big to fail problem?

892
00:40:51,268 --> 00:40:53,418
kind of not, not really, not really.

893
00:40:53,418 --> 00:40:57,148
It's more of a very big,
therefore regulation.

894
00:40:57,588 --> 00:41:00,298
And, and, and then they
have auditors and, and, and,

895
00:41:00,478 --> 00:41:01,468
Too big to change.

896
00:41:01,488 --> 00:41:02,508
they're also KYC, right?

897
00:41:02,508 --> 00:41:03,128
Too big to change.

898
00:41:03,128 --> 00:41:03,388
Yeah.

899
00:41:03,388 --> 00:41:07,248
That, I think that would be the way to put
it because they, they, they already KYC.

900
00:41:07,278 --> 00:41:10,488
They don't care about KYC and the only
thing they care about is, you know, like.

901
00:41:10,853 --> 00:41:15,523
Proper reporting, proper auditing,
uh, and also modifying their tax

902
00:41:15,523 --> 00:41:17,660
status like with shortbread, right?

903
00:41:17,660 --> 00:41:20,813
In the UK, it's called shortbread and
not just cookies, even though they're

904
00:41:20,813 --> 00:41:24,473
cookies, because I don't remember,
I think it was in the 1800s or 17th

905
00:41:24,773 --> 00:41:30,083
century, uh, there was a fight over
What it was, because cookies, they were

906
00:41:30,103 --> 00:41:34,993
taxed in the UK at like 12 or 15 percent
the exports, but bread was taxed only

907
00:41:34,993 --> 00:41:36,373
at 2 percent or something like that.

908
00:41:36,563 --> 00:41:40,673
So they decided to call it shortbread
in order to like have lower tax,

909
00:41:40,733 --> 00:41:42,593
uh, on or lower tariffs, right?

910
00:41:42,873 --> 00:41:45,013
And therefore sell more than cookies.

911
00:41:45,233 --> 00:41:46,553
And the same is happening with miners.

912
00:41:46,643 --> 00:41:50,933
Most miners, publicly traded ones from
a tax perspective, they are not miners.

913
00:41:51,693 --> 00:41:54,113
They're just compute providers
and the actual miners are

914
00:41:54,113 --> 00:41:57,243
the pools, And by doing that.

915
00:41:57,528 --> 00:42:02,428
And they become just a data center, like
any normal Amazon data center, and then

916
00:42:02,428 --> 00:42:06,948
their tax regime, like their taxes, are
lower, because if they were, uh, the

917
00:42:06,948 --> 00:42:11,578
miners, they would be selling a finished
product to the pool, and then they

918
00:42:11,578 --> 00:42:14,258
would have to pay VAT on that, right?

919
00:42:14,258 --> 00:42:15,288
So Yeah.

920
00:42:15,288 --> 00:42:16,068
That's what they do.

921
00:42:16,568 --> 00:42:19,328
Yeah, like, uh, value added tags,
just in case, you know, people

922
00:42:19,328 --> 00:42:20,448
from other parts in the world.

923
00:42:20,778 --> 00:42:25,558
Um, so, but because they're
compute providers and it's just a

924
00:42:25,588 --> 00:42:28,838
manufacturing product, which is the
input for another company, right?

925
00:42:29,078 --> 00:42:30,698
Then it's not a problem, right?

926
00:42:31,018 --> 00:42:34,638
Um, so that's why, oh, but
miners can just change their

927
00:42:34,718 --> 00:42:35,838
hash rate pointer somewhere else.

928
00:42:36,398 --> 00:42:39,158
Yes, technically, technically
everyone can do that.

929
00:42:39,798 --> 00:42:41,408
But, right?

930
00:42:41,738 --> 00:42:43,338
Um, but all of this,

931
00:42:43,438 --> 00:42:44,558
so they're not miners.

932
00:42:44,558 --> 00:42:45,538
They're hashing salesmen.

933
00:42:45,663 --> 00:42:47,163
Exactly, exactly, exactly.

934
00:42:47,163 --> 00:42:48,173
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

935
00:42:48,173 --> 00:42:48,593
Uh, they're

936
00:42:49,118 --> 00:42:51,198
And this is, this is like hash salesmen.

937
00:42:51,198 --> 00:42:53,828
That's what, that's what we've
been trying to push that, that

938
00:42:53,828 --> 00:42:55,378
kind of explanation for it.

939
00:42:55,818 --> 00:42:59,948
Like in, in so many, that goes
deep because you can't really

940
00:42:59,948 --> 00:43:02,818
call yourself a miner unless you
know what block you're mining on.

941
00:43:02,918 --> 00:43:03,668
Like, like, uh,

942
00:43:03,793 --> 00:43:04,263
yes.

943
00:43:04,833 --> 00:43:10,743
In a way, but, of course, uh, this
is the world we live in, kind of.

944
00:45:01,358 --> 00:45:05,848
Yeah, and so we were on a panel
yesterday that went into a whole bunch

945
00:45:05,848 --> 00:45:09,938
of current mining trends and all of
this, and you touched on one of the

946
00:45:09,938 --> 00:45:15,428
points that FPPS is dying, and I really
like this, I think this ties into both

947
00:45:15,428 --> 00:45:18,378
of these things, like the Stratenvy 2,
the decentralized mining and all this,

948
00:45:18,378 --> 00:45:22,568
but why is FPPS not going to work?

949
00:45:22,638 --> 00:45:26,448
And if you could, a
little bit on what FPPS is

950
00:45:26,548 --> 00:45:26,998
Yes.

951
00:45:27,087 --> 00:45:29,627
it would be good to start
with how pools appeared.

952
00:45:29,947 --> 00:45:32,357
Pools appear because there's 144 blocks.

953
00:45:32,427 --> 00:45:37,417
The way I like to explain it is every
day we bake a pie and it has 144 slices.

954
00:45:37,937 --> 00:45:41,237
And then if there's 144 kids,
there's a high probability that

955
00:45:41,237 --> 00:45:43,927
everyone will get there and get
their own piece of pie, right?

956
00:45:44,147 --> 00:45:46,067
But that's assuming equal
hash rate and all of that.

957
00:45:46,247 --> 00:45:49,817
But at some point, if you have a
big family and you're 700, some of

958
00:45:49,817 --> 00:45:52,747
the kids will go hungry for various
days in a row because they're

959
00:45:52,747 --> 00:45:54,007
not the first ones to get there.

960
00:45:54,167 --> 00:45:58,332
So then they decide to Band together and
be like, okay, when you get a piece of

961
00:45:58,332 --> 00:46:00,162
pie, you share it equally with all of us.

962
00:46:00,162 --> 00:46:02,862
And when I get a piece of pie,
we share all equally, right?

963
00:46:03,112 --> 00:46:04,352
That's what happened with pools.

964
00:46:04,352 --> 00:46:08,512
The first one was a slush,
uh, November, uh, of 2010.

965
00:46:08,532 --> 00:46:11,862
So one year after the
creation of Bitcoin, was it?

966
00:46:12,152 --> 00:46:12,652
No, no.

967
00:46:12,682 --> 00:46:15,042
Two years after Bitcoin mining started.

968
00:46:15,042 --> 00:46:16,932
So January of 2009.

969
00:46:17,317 --> 00:46:20,747
Uh, so yeah, about 21, 22
months, 21 months, huh?

970
00:46:20,962 --> 00:46:22,082
Mmm, yeah.

971
00:46:23,007 --> 00:46:26,397
But, um, but yeah, so that was the
first pool because at that point, uh,

972
00:46:26,407 --> 00:46:28,127
GPUs were slowly starting to pick up.

973
00:46:28,147 --> 00:46:34,507
That was about eight, seven, eight
months from when Laszlo Haniek

974
00:46:34,507 --> 00:46:37,017
published his GPU, uh, implementation.

975
00:46:37,287 --> 00:46:39,557
And at that point, something that
most people don't know is that

976
00:46:39,557 --> 00:46:42,687
the first GPU implementations,
they were not that more efficient.

977
00:46:43,257 --> 00:46:44,837
efficient, they were more powerful.

978
00:46:45,247 --> 00:46:48,037
Like, but from an efficiency standpoint,
they were actually potentially even worse.

979
00:46:48,037 --> 00:46:49,257
They were using more electricity.

980
00:46:49,562 --> 00:46:50,022
okay.

981
00:46:50,397 --> 00:46:51,227
So that's the thing.

982
00:46:51,257 --> 00:46:54,447
But yes, for the same machine,
you were getting more hash rates.

983
00:46:54,457 --> 00:46:57,427
So that's why, how Laszlo Hanye
managed to get a lot of coins.

984
00:46:57,667 --> 00:47:01,017
But by that point, they Many
people had already figured it out.

985
00:47:01,177 --> 00:47:03,717
They were actually starting to be more
efficient, therefore more economical,

986
00:47:03,917 --> 00:47:04,987
but there was more competition.

987
00:47:04,987 --> 00:47:07,997
And at that point you can go over
the Bitcoin talk forums and people

988
00:47:07,997 --> 00:47:11,027
like, we're talking about like
getting a block every four years.

989
00:47:11,317 --> 00:47:13,977
Nowadays, as a solo miner,
it's getting a block every 400.

990
00:47:13,987 --> 00:47:15,777
So good old times, right?

991
00:47:15,777 --> 00:47:16,872
They didn't know how good they had it.

992
00:47:17,292 --> 00:47:20,102
Um, but that was the first
pool from there they created.

993
00:47:20,132 --> 00:47:23,122
I don't remember exactly what the
method for like distribute for like

994
00:47:23,122 --> 00:47:26,292
this, the distribution like, Oh,
you bring in so much work, you're

995
00:47:26,292 --> 00:47:27,452
going to get that much amount.

996
00:47:27,802 --> 00:47:31,872
Um, what it was, but basically
how modern pools work after

997
00:47:31,872 --> 00:47:33,292
that one, they had some trouble.

998
00:47:33,312 --> 00:47:37,092
Some new pools appeared and they
fixed on that was basically.

999
00:47:38,207 --> 00:47:42,147
The way Bitcoin mining works is you
have to find a number that is lower

1000
00:47:42,177 --> 00:47:43,247
than the difficulty adjustment.

1001
00:47:43,267 --> 00:47:44,667
You have to think of
it like a limbo, right?

1002
00:47:44,687 --> 00:47:46,307
You go underneath the thing, right?

1003
00:47:46,617 --> 00:47:52,797
Um, but what the pool does in order to
not get all of the trials, because what

1004
00:47:52,797 --> 00:47:56,597
your ASIC is doing is just hashing once
and once, like, again and again and

1005
00:47:56,597 --> 00:48:00,267
again, and all of them, they could, you
know, They have some, let's say they're

1006
00:48:00,267 --> 00:48:02,107
a proof that they're doing work, right?

1007
00:48:02,317 --> 00:48:05,107
And you want to check that people
are doing work as a pool, right?

1008
00:48:05,357 --> 00:48:07,447
But you don't want to
receive all of the trials.

1009
00:48:07,447 --> 00:48:10,827
Cause then from a data bandwidth
perspective, that would be, you will be

1010
00:48:11,022 --> 00:48:13,642
So you want the computing
power rather than the hashes.

1011
00:48:13,847 --> 00:48:14,367
exactly.

1012
00:48:14,367 --> 00:48:17,297
So what you want to do is you want
to get a fraction of the hashes.

1013
00:48:17,477 --> 00:48:21,567
So what the pools do is, yes, this is
the, so this low or let, yeah, this

1014
00:48:21,567 --> 00:48:23,377
low is the difficulty of Bitcoin.

1015
00:48:23,397 --> 00:48:27,442
So if you get a hash underneath this,
like a number underneath this, We are

1016
00:48:27,442 --> 00:48:34,012
getting bitcoins, yippee, awesome, good
times, but we are 50 people in this

1017
00:48:34,022 --> 00:48:38,372
pool, or 50 entities with varying levels
of hash rates, and I don't want to be

1018
00:48:38,372 --> 00:48:46,437
receiving 2 million, or not 2 million, 400
quadrillion strings of data every second.

1019
00:48:46,457 --> 00:48:46,777
Right?

1020
00:48:46,977 --> 00:48:52,327
So I want to just receive let's say
one, every second from each of you guys.

1021
00:48:52,367 --> 00:48:54,907
So what I'm going to do is
I'm going to give each of you

1022
00:48:55,017 --> 00:48:56,367
a different difficulty level.

1023
00:48:56,707 --> 00:49:00,167
And if you get a number that is
below that, so here's the Bitcoin

1024
00:49:00,347 --> 00:49:03,777
mining difficulty, like the whole
network, and this pool is choosing

1025
00:49:03,977 --> 00:49:06,027
client A, we'll have it here.

1026
00:49:06,077 --> 00:49:10,392
So if you get any shares, So, that are
smaller than that one, so below that one,

1027
00:49:10,622 --> 00:49:13,832
so that are harder to get, then you're
going to send it to me, even if it's not

1028
00:49:13,832 --> 00:49:19,112
valid for this, for mining, because what
that's proving is you're doing work.

1029
00:49:19,812 --> 00:49:22,852
And by knowing your difficulty level
and how many shares you provide an

1030
00:49:22,852 --> 00:49:24,722
hour, I can calculate your hash rate.

1031
00:49:24,892 --> 00:49:27,927
And therefore I can calculate
what's your percentage of the work.

1032
00:49:28,257 --> 00:49:31,097
And then, but then of course, you
don't want to give a Bidax the

1033
00:49:31,097 --> 00:49:33,747
same difficulty as fucking Riot.

1034
00:49:33,997 --> 00:49:38,427
Because Riot, they're going to give
you 400 quadrillion strings either way.

1035
00:49:38,637 --> 00:49:42,237
So then you get different difficulty
levels for different miners in your pool.

1036
00:49:42,557 --> 00:49:45,877
And using that, you're going to get,
let's say, I'm making it up, but I think

1037
00:49:45,877 --> 00:49:50,717
it's, usually it's like, uh, 10 shares
per second, but I don't know, right?

1038
00:49:50,887 --> 00:49:53,627
And also every pool can choose
a different metric, right?

1039
00:49:53,887 --> 00:49:55,407
But let's say one share per second.

1040
00:49:55,907 --> 00:49:59,287
If you have not too much hash rate,
they will give you a higher difficulty.

1041
00:49:59,897 --> 00:50:03,137
And then if you have a lot of hash rate,
they will give you a lower difficulty.

1042
00:50:03,437 --> 00:50:05,877
So now we have created
the concept of shares.

1043
00:50:06,127 --> 00:50:11,127
Because shares are hashes that are low
enough that you have to submit them.

1044
00:50:11,377 --> 00:50:13,897
Or not have to, but you're willing
to submit them because they're

1045
00:50:13,957 --> 00:50:17,277
worth something, but not low enough
that they give you Bitcoin, right?

1046
00:50:17,307 --> 00:50:20,157
Because they're not giving
you a block in the network.

1047
00:50:20,477 --> 00:50:23,817
So then, every pool created a system
like that, and then we get into the

1048
00:50:23,817 --> 00:50:27,987
first, um, systems using shares.

1049
00:50:28,467 --> 00:50:33,022
If I remember correctly, the
first one was, uh, PPL, no,

1050
00:50:33,172 --> 00:50:36,992
PPLS, Pay Per Last N Shares.

1051
00:50:36,992 --> 00:50:37,202
Okay.

1052
00:50:37,202 --> 00:50:38,592
Then it was PPLNS.

1053
00:50:38,772 --> 00:50:44,252
So per the last, so they're going to
look at the last, um, quadrillion shares

1054
00:50:44,742 --> 00:50:48,592
provided from all the miners and they're
going to see the distribution of them.

1055
00:50:48,902 --> 00:50:49,562
So, okay.

1056
00:50:49,562 --> 00:50:52,402
You provided this amount of
shares with this hash rate.

1057
00:50:52,412 --> 00:50:55,172
That means that you will get this.

1058
00:50:55,332 --> 00:50:59,312
When we find a block, we will look
back into all of the shares that were

1059
00:50:59,312 --> 00:51:00,892
submitted in the past four hours.

1060
00:51:00,892 --> 00:51:00,907
Okay.

1061
00:51:01,107 --> 00:51:03,947
And then we will give you
that percentage, right?

1062
00:51:04,377 --> 00:51:07,097
And if you provided more shares at
a higher difficulty, then you're

1063
00:51:07,107 --> 00:51:10,037
getting more of that block, right?

1064
00:51:10,577 --> 00:51:11,607
So that's how it starts.

1065
00:51:12,147 --> 00:51:13,617
But of course, what's
the problem with that?

1066
00:51:13,717 --> 00:51:15,557
You only get paid when a block is found.

1067
00:51:15,777 --> 00:51:18,797
Because the moment a block is found,
they look backwards and they say, Okay.

1068
00:51:19,042 --> 00:51:20,382
How much were you guys working on?

1069
00:51:20,422 --> 00:51:22,782
Okay, then from this block
you get this percentage, this

1070
00:51:22,792 --> 00:51:23,852
percentage, this percentage.

1071
00:51:24,152 --> 00:51:26,062
That's when we get into
the thing of variance.

1072
00:51:26,222 --> 00:51:29,922
There's only 144 blocks a day,
and if you're less than 1 percent

1073
00:51:29,922 --> 00:51:31,132
of the network, so if you're 0.

1074
00:51:31,132 --> 00:51:36,382
7 percent of the network, then you are
supposed to get one block a day, on

1075
00:51:36,382 --> 00:51:42,427
average, because there's 144 blocks, so If
you do the math, it's around 65 percent.

1076
00:51:43,257 --> 00:51:43,987
But what happens?

1077
00:51:44,667 --> 00:51:45,707
It's probabilistic.

1078
00:51:45,817 --> 00:51:48,517
Some days, it can happen,
you don't get a block.

1079
00:51:48,607 --> 00:51:50,967
And it could also happen that the
next day, you don't get a block.

1080
00:51:51,137 --> 00:51:52,157
And the next day as well.

1081
00:51:52,377 --> 00:51:53,977
What are the probabilities of doing that?

1082
00:51:53,977 --> 00:51:56,607
You know, then you have to poison
distributions and all of that.

1083
00:51:56,817 --> 00:51:57,947
It gets very mathematical.

1084
00:51:57,947 --> 00:52:00,217
I don't even really
understand it, to be honest.

1085
00:52:00,377 --> 00:52:04,217
But anyway, um, well, I do understand
it, but like, how the math works

1086
00:52:04,217 --> 00:52:07,717
behind it is a bit still like, Okay,
it works, but like, I don't understand

1087
00:52:07,717 --> 00:52:11,197
why, um, but it still can happen.

1088
00:52:11,207 --> 00:52:14,867
So if you're not too big, it could
happen that for a few days, you don't

1089
00:52:14,867 --> 00:52:15,977
get blogs, you don't get paid out.

1090
00:52:15,987 --> 00:52:20,037
So then it feels like, and then there
were also ways to like, like play it

1091
00:52:20,047 --> 00:52:24,507
where like, if a blog was just being found
on another pool, you would jump to that

1092
00:52:24,507 --> 00:52:28,617
one because of some, anyway, there were
some attacks that you could do where you

1093
00:52:28,617 --> 00:52:32,967
could like, Scoop off, uh, profitability
of pools and therefore like start

1094
00:52:32,987 --> 00:52:35,017
like stealing from them, so to speak.

1095
00:52:35,307 --> 00:52:39,497
Uh, so then pools and, and,
and, and miners, they started

1096
00:52:39,497 --> 00:52:40,757
looking for new alternatives.

1097
00:52:41,067 --> 00:52:44,797
And the one that they came up with and
that has been prevalent for the past

1098
00:52:45,427 --> 00:52:47,407
three to five years has been FPPS.

1099
00:52:48,237 --> 00:52:51,287
So we went from let's look at the
shares that you gave us over the

1100
00:52:51,297 --> 00:52:57,167
last X hours, uh, once the block is
found and then we will calculate it

1101
00:52:57,227 --> 00:53:00,287
to we will give pay you regardless.

1102
00:53:00,677 --> 00:53:01,087
Why?

1103
00:53:01,107 --> 00:53:05,697
Because the expected value
of any hash is the same.

1104
00:53:05,797 --> 00:53:08,217
Like any hash could be the
hash that gets you a block.

1105
00:53:08,597 --> 00:53:12,127
It's like with um, I like to compare
it like the metaphor uses the um,

1106
00:53:12,967 --> 00:53:17,367
Um, uh, digital marketing, like with
advertisements, uh, you know, people,

1107
00:53:17,367 --> 00:53:20,637
they pay for, they pay a hundred dollars
for a million clicks in Facebook.

1108
00:53:21,017 --> 00:53:25,347
They don't know which click will give
them revenue, but they know that every

1109
00:53:25,347 --> 00:53:30,257
million clicks they can expect at least
more than a hundred dollars of revenue.

1110
00:53:30,307 --> 00:53:31,797
Otherwise they wouldn't buy it.

1111
00:53:31,877 --> 00:53:32,157
Right.

1112
00:53:32,517 --> 00:53:37,497
Um, so in a way what you're saying is like
the expected value of your hash rate, uh,

1113
00:53:37,517 --> 00:53:39,067
so from a probabilistic point of view.

1114
00:53:39,342 --> 00:53:40,392
is this amount.

1115
00:53:40,612 --> 00:53:43,892
So, so the equivalent,
so FPPS is pay per click,

1116
00:53:45,452 --> 00:53:45,952
kind of,

1117
00:53:45,992 --> 00:53:46,512
kind of.

1118
00:53:46,892 --> 00:53:49,342
That's the equivalent in the
advertising world, rather than,

1119
00:53:49,842 --> 00:53:53,412
rather than a referral, like
whenever you get a sale, you, yeah.

1120
00:53:53,602 --> 00:53:53,972
Yeah.

1121
00:53:54,262 --> 00:53:54,972
I like that.

1122
00:53:55,022 --> 00:53:57,372
Thanks for expanding on
my poorly thought out

1123
00:53:57,622 --> 00:53:59,072
No, that's just how I heard it.

1124
00:53:59,252 --> 00:53:59,602
Yes.

1125
00:53:59,742 --> 00:54:00,232
Awesome.

1126
00:54:00,282 --> 00:54:00,722
Dope.

1127
00:54:01,072 --> 00:54:04,012
Cause I hadn't thought those steps
extra, but yes, it's that, that

1128
00:54:04,012 --> 00:54:05,112
will be the way to think about it.

1129
00:54:05,402 --> 00:54:07,362
And it's a very simple calculation.

1130
00:54:07,382 --> 00:54:11,732
You just get all of the Bitcoin
mined per day at this point, 450.

1131
00:54:12,447 --> 00:54:17,977
Plus, uh, transaction fees and divided
by the total network hash rate.

1132
00:54:18,287 --> 00:54:19,457
And that's it.

1133
00:54:19,477 --> 00:54:23,467
You're getting, if you have one extra
hash, you should be getting this amount.

1134
00:54:24,592 --> 00:54:27,192
The problem is that you're
getting paid regardless of

1135
00:54:27,192 --> 00:54:28,282
if the block is found or not.

1136
00:54:28,707 --> 00:54:34,417
So that were like the, the pools
could still have bad, uh, sets of

1137
00:54:34,417 --> 00:54:37,777
luck, which then means they have,
they have to like, it's almost like

1138
00:54:37,777 --> 00:54:40,957
you're withdrawing from the bank,
even though there's no money there.

1139
00:54:41,157 --> 00:54:41,557
So then they

1140
00:54:41,652 --> 00:54:42,632
fractional reserve.

1141
00:54:42,647 --> 00:54:44,417
it's, it's worse than fractional reserve.

1142
00:54:44,417 --> 00:54:45,667
I was, I think it was Alan.

1143
00:54:45,792 --> 00:54:47,272
It's exactly fractional reserve.

1144
00:54:47,532 --> 00:54:50,432
They're gonna pay you out regardless
if the gold is there or not.

1145
00:54:51,306 --> 00:54:52,296
I would say it's worse.

1146
00:54:52,662 --> 00:54:53,862
the gold rather

1147
00:54:53,876 --> 00:54:56,086
Cause they're, they're working
on the promise that they will

1148
00:54:56,086 --> 00:54:57,226
find gold because meanwhile

1149
00:54:57,242 --> 00:54:58,762
I swear I put it here somewhere.

1150
00:54:59,269 --> 00:55:00,439
With fractional reserve, at least.

1151
00:55:00,814 --> 00:55:02,644
The gold was there beforehand.

1152
00:55:02,644 --> 00:55:05,274
Theoretically, theoretically,
lots of air quotes.

1153
00:55:05,274 --> 00:55:05,524
Right.

1154
00:55:05,944 --> 00:55:09,814
Um, but with this one is like, Oh no,
we are sure we're going to get gold.

1155
00:55:09,814 --> 00:55:10,124
Right.

1156
00:55:11,144 --> 00:55:11,484
Don't worry.

1157
00:55:11,484 --> 00:55:12,494
Just, just get paid.

1158
00:55:12,504 --> 00:55:13,174
You're welcome.

1159
00:55:13,574 --> 00:55:16,664
Um, so it requires a lot of
like, um, like financing.

1160
00:55:16,664 --> 00:55:20,644
You need to have like big bags in
order to like, uh, Uh, to like do

1161
00:55:20,644 --> 00:55:23,714
all of this, uh, which leads to
this, to the centralization, but

1162
00:55:23,714 --> 00:55:28,064
also from a historical perspective,
how it evolved is at the beginning

1163
00:55:28,064 --> 00:55:31,924
when FPP has arrived, the formulas
that we're using were very simple.

1164
00:55:32,524 --> 00:55:38,664
Basically, for example, uh, let's look
over the last 144 blocks, aka one day.

1165
00:55:38,834 --> 00:55:43,574
What was the, the average, like what
was the payout to the average of that?

1166
00:55:43,734 --> 00:55:47,544
And then that's what your
terahash or petahash or exahash.

1167
00:55:47,764 --> 00:55:50,634
What's worth for the last day,
and we'll pay you that amount.

1168
00:55:51,129 --> 00:55:54,559
That's the expected value of
your TeraHash for the past day.

1169
00:55:55,029 --> 00:55:58,339
Um, and they would also
be very fair, let's say.

1170
00:55:58,469 --> 00:56:00,709
They would be very close to
the actual expected value.

1171
00:56:01,769 --> 00:56:02,679
Let's call it 100%.

1172
00:56:02,899 --> 00:56:06,059
And then on top of that, or below
that, they would give, off the top,

1173
00:56:06,069 --> 00:56:08,048
they would skim between 2 and 4%.

1174
00:56:08,049 --> 00:56:09,049
That's the pool fees.

1175
00:56:09,279 --> 00:56:09,699
Perfect.

1176
00:56:09,929 --> 00:56:10,389
Makes sense.

1177
00:56:10,389 --> 00:56:15,464
But as the time went on, they realized
that The financing needs were so big

1178
00:56:15,464 --> 00:56:20,014
on their end and the risk was so big
on the pool's end that they needed

1179
00:56:20,024 --> 00:56:22,704
more revenue to justify it, right?

1180
00:56:22,704 --> 00:56:25,984
Because otherwise they were basically,
I would say like picking pennies

1181
00:56:26,254 --> 00:56:27,384
in front of a steamroller, right?

1182
00:56:27,384 --> 00:56:28,054
To a certain degree.

1183
00:56:28,394 --> 00:56:32,054
Uh, so as time went on, they started
modifying the formulas and then

1184
00:56:32,074 --> 00:56:36,074
suddenly it was not just, Hey, the
last 144 blocks, transactions included.

1185
00:56:36,074 --> 00:56:37,964
So Coinbase plus transaction.

1186
00:56:38,034 --> 00:56:40,354
And that's it.

1187
00:56:40,574 --> 00:56:44,094
We're going to actually like subtract
the last, the least profitable 10

1188
00:56:44,094 --> 00:56:48,064
and, but also the most profitable
10 or, or, or they're good and

1189
00:56:48,064 --> 00:56:48,944
they start playing with that.

1190
00:56:48,944 --> 00:56:49,114
Right.

1191
00:56:49,114 --> 00:56:53,044
And then suddenly they, everyone
calls it FPPS, but FPPS from this

1192
00:56:53,054 --> 00:56:56,524
pool and that pool and the other pool,
they use slightly tweaked formulas.

1193
00:56:56,774 --> 00:56:59,454
And then also, to a certain
degree, you have to trust them that

1194
00:56:59,454 --> 00:57:00,624
they're doing the formula right.

1195
00:57:00,824 --> 00:57:03,234
And over time, what started
happening is, you know what

1196
00:57:03,234 --> 00:57:04,774
happens with exchanges, right?

1197
00:57:04,774 --> 00:57:08,224
Like, like you go there and they tell
you, Oh, 0 percent fee, there's no fee.

1198
00:57:08,404 --> 00:57:11,754
But then there's a spread, you
know, that's also a fee, right?

1199
00:57:11,819 --> 00:57:15,019
so, so let me get this,
see if I got it right.

1200
00:57:15,089 --> 00:57:20,579
So, so the longer the time horizon, the
more financing you need, but also the

1201
00:57:20,579 --> 00:57:24,389
more assured you can be that it's, you're
actually going to find the blocks, right?

1202
00:57:24,449 --> 00:57:26,799
Like, because the probability
that you will, it just goes

1203
00:57:26,809 --> 00:57:28,349
up with, with more time.

1204
00:57:28,564 --> 00:57:28,774
Yeah.

1205
00:57:28,774 --> 00:57:32,984
But also the longer the time horizon,
the higher the probabilities that you

1206
00:57:32,984 --> 00:57:35,874
will have a bad week or a bad month.

1207
00:57:36,154 --> 00:57:42,269
And what a bad month means is that You got
less blocks and then you're dipping deeper

1208
00:57:42,299 --> 00:57:44,269
into your reserves or into your financing.

1209
00:57:44,389 --> 00:57:47,789
That's hence the more financing you
need, like that sort of exponential.

1210
00:57:47,859 --> 00:57:48,639
exactly, exactly.

1211
00:57:48,709 --> 00:57:49,579
Yes, exactly.

1212
00:57:49,849 --> 00:57:53,699
Um, so that's where they realized
like we need to get more money.

1213
00:57:53,909 --> 00:57:57,609
Like we need to get more revenue
because this way the payouts are lower.

1214
00:57:57,639 --> 00:58:02,079
So there's, we have to pay less out,
but also we're creating a bigger

1215
00:58:02,079 --> 00:58:05,329
cushion in the good times, so to speak,
almost like, you know, Keynesian, like,

1216
00:58:05,679 --> 00:58:09,459
Balancing of the thing, of the, of the
government revenues and taxes, right?

1217
00:58:09,539 --> 00:58:10,389
The theoretical

1218
00:58:10,554 --> 00:58:10,739
Keynesian.

1219
00:58:11,279 --> 00:58:14,679
which is great in theory, but
communism is also great in theory.

1220
00:58:14,794 --> 00:58:15,054
yeah.

1221
00:58:15,814 --> 00:58:18,134
No, it's not great in theory,
but let's not go there.

1222
00:58:18,469 --> 00:58:19,159
In theory, yes.

1223
00:58:19,169 --> 00:58:20,369
Hey, I'm gonna be honest.

1224
00:58:20,519 --> 00:58:21,859
In theory, communism is awesome.

1225
00:58:21,869 --> 00:58:22,279
What?

1226
00:58:22,379 --> 00:58:23,999
Everyone gets everything
and they're happy?

1227
00:58:24,349 --> 00:58:25,029
Now do it.

1228
00:58:25,639 --> 00:58:25,959
Good.

1229
00:58:26,409 --> 00:58:26,929
Luck.

1230
00:58:27,394 --> 00:58:31,204
but it's not great in theory because the
theory doesn't hold up if you examine

1231
00:58:31,204 --> 00:58:32,624
it too much, but let's not go there.

1232
00:58:32,839 --> 00:58:35,349
also the theory has
big holes like the, uh,

1233
00:58:36,094 --> 00:58:37,314
Labor theory of value.

1234
00:58:37,374 --> 00:58:37,764
Yeah.

1235
00:58:38,114 --> 00:58:38,784
Proof of work.

1236
00:58:38,794 --> 00:58:40,744
Exactly, Instead of proof of results.

1237
00:58:40,939 --> 00:58:43,779
So, as a Mickey Mouse experiment,
communism is wonderful.

1238
00:58:44,164 --> 00:58:45,674
But, and FPPs as well.

1239
00:58:45,754 --> 00:58:46,484
FPPs as well.

1240
00:58:46,794 --> 00:58:47,624
Uh, that's the thing.

1241
00:58:48,084 --> 00:58:52,354
FPPs could be seen as like the communism
of Bitcoin mining and pool payout

1242
00:58:52,464 --> 00:58:53,554
That's a good way to put it.

1243
00:58:53,594 --> 00:58:54,514
So what's the solution?

1244
00:58:54,644 --> 00:59:00,263
so, the solution is basically, we're
Going to see, like with communism,

1245
00:59:00,433 --> 00:59:02,383
the system fails by itself, right?

1246
00:59:02,543 --> 00:59:05,313
Because what's, what's been happening
over the past few years is that

1247
00:59:05,713 --> 00:59:08,763
as time went on, the spread, like
with, with the exchanges, right?

1248
00:59:08,763 --> 00:59:12,233
They tell you, Oh, 0 percent fee or
lower fee than the others, but they're

1249
00:59:12,233 --> 00:59:13,633
increasing their spread, right?

1250
00:59:13,803 --> 00:59:16,818
And so you, you put a thousand
euros in, but you get, you know,

1251
00:59:17,018 --> 00:59:20,268
Ninety years ago you actually
got 990 euros worth of bitcoin.

1252
00:59:20,528 --> 00:59:24,988
And then two years later, you actually
get 980 euros worth of Bitcoin.

1253
00:59:24,988 --> 00:59:29,708
So, even though they say 0 percent
fee, they just paid you 20 euros less.

1254
00:59:30,078 --> 00:59:32,368
10 euros less before, 20 euros less now.

1255
00:59:32,608 --> 00:59:33,568
And that's what's happening now.

1256
00:59:33,688 --> 00:59:35,218
The FPPS formula is getting
more and more successful.

1257
00:59:35,578 --> 00:59:38,408
Weirder and stranger and more
complicated and harder to

1258
00:59:38,408 --> 00:59:40,018
understand and harder to verify.

1259
00:59:40,048 --> 00:59:40,888
That's the other thing.

1260
00:59:41,028 --> 00:59:44,128
That's something that at the Manpool
we're trying to like, uh, change.

1261
00:59:44,398 --> 00:59:48,728
Uh, we have created a system of
auditability where the miners, they

1262
00:59:48,728 --> 00:59:52,788
can actually challenge us and they
can check if we're doing our work

1263
00:59:52,788 --> 00:59:54,728
right and in a public manner, right?

1264
00:59:54,728 --> 01:00:00,833
So we have, we can't hide, we're making
it so that If, like, if demand pool

1265
01:00:00,843 --> 01:00:05,933
became, once we launch next year, if
demand pool became 100%, like there was

1266
01:00:05,933 --> 01:00:10,373
only demand pool, we would be the last
suckers because we would have no power.

1267
01:00:10,563 --> 01:00:13,533
Like if Anpool becomes the biggest
or Foundry becomes the biggest,

1268
01:00:13,553 --> 01:00:18,123
ooh, they're KYC, fully controlled,
regulated by the government.

1269
01:00:18,263 --> 01:00:21,323
But if we become the biggest pool,
we have 100 percent of the hash rate.

1270
01:00:21,838 --> 01:00:25,768
It doesn't matter because we don't
control the blocks and we can also not

1271
01:00:25,788 --> 01:00:29,458
steal from miners because at any point
they can audit us in a very transparent

1272
01:00:29,498 --> 01:00:30,928
manner, in a very public manner.

1273
01:00:31,838 --> 01:00:36,348
If we're actually doing something wrong,
they'll catch us as quick as, as it gets.

1274
01:00:36,558 --> 01:00:39,248
And at that point, you know, the game
theory works of going to other places.

1275
01:00:39,258 --> 01:00:39,538
So

1276
01:00:39,798 --> 01:00:44,768
So, so, do you think other pools are going
to start adopting alternatives to FPPS?

1277
01:00:44,788 --> 01:00:46,928
Because I think this was the,
this was the interesting point

1278
01:00:46,928 --> 01:00:48,578
when you said FPPS is, FPPS is

1279
01:00:48,843 --> 01:00:50,893
yes, yes and no.

1280
01:00:50,923 --> 01:00:54,953
Cause there's so much path dependence
on the pool side of things.

1281
01:00:55,163 --> 01:00:57,763
Especially if you're already
part of Anpool, like there's

1282
01:00:57,773 --> 01:01:03,053
pools that they're basically,
they started as an Anpool proxy.

1283
01:01:03,163 --> 01:01:03,453
That's it.

1284
01:01:03,463 --> 01:01:04,683
That's been their whole business model.

1285
01:01:04,693 --> 01:01:05,973
They don't know anything else, right?

1286
01:01:06,303 --> 01:01:06,773
Uh.

1287
01:01:06,778 --> 01:01:07,648
does that work, by the way?

1288
01:01:07,648 --> 01:01:10,028
Like, Anpool gives them the
template, or what does that mean?

1289
01:01:11,263 --> 01:01:13,003
It's an API, basically,
to a certain degree.

1290
01:01:13,193 --> 01:01:16,793
Uh, a bit more complexity, but
basically, Anpool just says, hey,

1291
01:01:16,803 --> 01:01:20,553
here's your API, just send it
to your, uh, to your, um, guys.

1292
01:01:20,723 --> 01:01:22,973
They don't need to care about
any of the infrastructure or the

1293
01:01:22,973 --> 01:01:25,563
coding or maintaining software
or maintaining anything, right?

1294
01:01:25,843 --> 01:01:27,823
As a, as a pure proxy pool.

1295
01:01:28,093 --> 01:01:32,333
Then of course there's also examples
of pools that were, PPLNS or other

1296
01:01:32,553 --> 01:01:37,033
forms of payouts that then move to Ant
Pool and I don't know how that works

1297
01:01:37,053 --> 01:01:40,343
But Proxy is also about the ownership
structure of the pool, right?

1298
01:01:40,353 --> 01:01:45,423
So that the Bitmain owns the pool,
but very in, in very indirect

1299
01:01:45,653 --> 01:01:46,463
in a debt

1300
01:01:46,513 --> 01:01:46,923
trap.

1301
01:01:46,963 --> 01:01:48,543
in a debt trap type of way.

1302
01:01:48,663 --> 01:01:48,843
Yeah.

1303
01:01:48,893 --> 01:01:51,774
Because if you don't have our
platform, So if you're looking for

1304
01:01:51,774 --> 01:01:54,188
finance or deep pockets, then you're
going to go bankrupt real quick.

1305
01:01:54,208 --> 01:01:54,488
Yeah.

1306
01:01:54,948 --> 01:01:59,618
Um, I, yeah, but going back, I didn't
finish the point about how, um, FPPS dies.

1307
01:01:59,948 --> 01:02:04,338
Um, so every time they've been
getting a bigger, like they've been

1308
01:02:04,358 --> 01:02:08,248
increasing the spread while saying
that the fees are the lowest, right?

1309
01:02:08,558 --> 01:02:11,388
And miners, because it's hard
to check on that because the

1310
01:02:11,388 --> 01:02:12,018
formulas are getting bigger.

1311
01:02:12,528 --> 01:02:13,308
Harder and harder.

1312
01:02:13,488 --> 01:02:17,928
They went from making a hundred percent
of their expected value, minus 2%.

1313
01:02:17,928 --> 01:02:22,368
That's a fee to suddenly was 2%
spread, which they don't say right,

1314
01:02:22,458 --> 01:02:25,128
and two, two to two to 4% a fee.

1315
01:02:25,398 --> 01:02:29,388
So at that point, the minor is getting
between 96 and 94% of the value of

1316
01:02:29,388 --> 01:02:32,238
their hash rate to, at this point, the
miners are actually getting between.

1317
01:02:34,038 --> 01:02:38,585
88 and 94 percent of what their
hash rate is actually worth, because

1318
01:02:38,615 --> 01:02:40,025
the spread has kept increasing.

1319
01:02:40,285 --> 01:02:44,575
So, uh, the pools are getting
a bigger share of the pie, even

1320
01:02:44,575 --> 01:02:47,455
though they've been giving the same
service as the beginning, right?

1321
01:02:47,575 --> 01:02:51,565
That's why they're justifying it with, um,
Oh, but we're going to give you cheaper

1322
01:02:51,565 --> 01:02:55,595
financing or we're going to provide you
the machines or ride the whole foundry

1323
01:02:55,635 --> 01:02:57,785
and, uh, and, and pool thing, right?

1324
01:02:57,785 --> 01:02:58,605
Where, Oh, it's the.

1325
01:02:58,925 --> 01:03:01,645
It's the ancillary services
that we provide, right?

1326
01:03:01,645 --> 01:03:04,665
It's like the support and the after
sales support and all of that.

1327
01:03:05,365 --> 01:03:12,835
Um, so just by its weight, it's already
dying because it's taking so much from,

1328
01:03:12,895 --> 01:03:19,065
it takes so much stealing basically
to, to keep up that when miners join

1329
01:03:19,065 --> 01:03:23,677
pools, like in this case, oceans, and
in the future, our pool, they realize,

1330
01:03:23,747 --> 01:03:25,687
wait a second, I'm getting more money.

1331
01:03:25,687 --> 01:03:26,407
How does that work?

1332
01:03:26,422 --> 01:03:31,592
Like, aren't they supposed to be
filtering high value transactions and

1333
01:03:31,592 --> 01:03:33,132
therefore we should get less money?

1334
01:03:33,582 --> 01:03:37,552
No, because these guys, because
when you're a PPL, PPLNS, PayPair

1335
01:03:37,562 --> 01:03:42,482
Last N Shares Pool, you don't have
any financing needs, because you,

1336
01:03:42,502 --> 01:03:43,852
you're like a full reserve bank.

1337
01:03:44,032 --> 01:03:47,392
The moment that a block is found, it
goes into your, into your reserves,

1338
01:03:47,392 --> 01:03:49,692
and a hundred blocks later, because
that's also something people don't

1339
01:03:49,702 --> 01:03:53,022
know, you cannot spend a Coinbase
for the next a hundred blocks.

1340
01:03:53,552 --> 01:03:54,182
Funnily enough.

1341
01:03:54,532 --> 01:03:58,332
Um, but, and a hundred blocks later,
or whenever the miner, because then

1342
01:03:58,442 --> 01:04:01,502
you create an account on the pool,
whenever the miner wants to check

1343
01:04:01,512 --> 01:04:03,442
out, we already received upfront.

1344
01:04:03,542 --> 01:04:06,342
You're just getting out what
you already worked for, right?

1345
01:04:06,512 --> 01:04:09,252
There's no, Oh, we're going to pay you
in front and we're going to trust that

1346
01:04:09,252 --> 01:04:11,362
we're going to get blocks later, you know?

1347
01:04:11,482 --> 01:04:13,312
So, so let me see if I get this right.

1348
01:04:13,342 --> 01:04:16,842
Hearkening back to the
ad paper click analogy.

1349
01:04:16,922 --> 01:04:17,132
Yes.

1350
01:04:17,572 --> 01:04:22,912
So, uh, what we say
FPPS is, is paper click.

1351
01:04:22,992 --> 01:04:27,232
No, it's, it's, uh,
it's, it's paper click,

1352
01:04:27,432 --> 01:04:27,802
Yes.

1353
01:04:27,822 --> 01:04:28,542
Like batched.

1354
01:04:28,592 --> 01:04:31,252
Like I give you a, I sell
you a million clicks.

1355
01:04:31,437 --> 01:04:36,987
Yeah, but you have no way of knowing,
like they also take the revenue part,

1356
01:04:37,037 --> 01:04:42,247
they take your sales profits and you
don't know how much you sold, like

1357
01:04:42,247 --> 01:04:44,047
you don't know how many sales you got,

1358
01:04:44,932 --> 01:04:45,462
Yes.

1359
01:04:45,492 --> 01:04:45,722
So

1360
01:04:45,857 --> 01:04:47,897
they could just be lying
about that theoretically.

1361
01:04:48,497 --> 01:04:54,987
But with a, uh, PLL, you get the,
you get the actual, you get the

1362
01:04:54,987 --> 01:04:58,447
transparency, there are no guaranteed
sales, but you see every sale and

1363
01:04:58,447 --> 01:04:59,757
you see exactly how much you get.

1364
01:05:00,537 --> 01:05:05,617
Alright, so in a way, it's not FPPS,
it's not pay per click, but it's more

1365
01:05:05,627 --> 01:05:11,197
akin to, okay, you can buy an ad in
my magazine for 10, 000 bucks, and

1366
01:05:11,197 --> 01:05:14,917
you have absolutely no way of knowing
how many people saw it, or if it's

1367
01:05:14,937 --> 01:05:19,062
I can tell, I can give you an average
of how many people buy my, my paper.

1368
01:05:19,062 --> 01:05:19,272
Right.

1369
01:05:19,272 --> 01:05:23,202
But I cannot assure you anything and you
will not know unless someone tells you

1370
01:05:23,382 --> 01:05:25,752
how many shoes that you're selling or, or

1371
01:05:26,032 --> 01:05:29,442
No, no, so that they're basically
selling your product and saying

1372
01:05:29,442 --> 01:05:32,522
that this is the profit, but
you never see the sales numbers.

1373
01:05:32,622 --> 01:05:32,912
Yeah.

1374
01:05:33,142 --> 01:05:33,562
Yeah.

1375
01:05:33,622 --> 01:05:35,182
In a way that's a good way to put it.

1376
01:05:35,182 --> 01:05:36,922
That's a way, a good way
to, uh, understand it.

1377
01:05:37,692 --> 01:05:42,372
So to kind of pull this all together
then, your thesis somewhat is that

1378
01:05:42,952 --> 01:05:49,162
miners are going to choose to move
to pools that are open, transparent,

1379
01:05:49,402 --> 01:05:52,192
using payout methods that are
actually fair, or at least getting

1380
01:05:52,192 --> 01:05:54,272
closer to the total expected value.

1381
01:05:54,522 --> 01:05:58,522
And so, I mean, the pools that
already exist, how do you think

1382
01:05:58,522 --> 01:06:00,202
they're going to adapt to this?

1383
01:06:00,202 --> 01:06:02,382
Because this is a hard problem, right?

1384
01:06:02,452 --> 01:06:05,912
All these pools are already
set up with this AppAPS model.

1385
01:06:06,147 --> 01:06:08,197
And they have a lot of share of hashrate.

1386
01:06:08,387 --> 01:06:10,977
What do you think they're going to
do when the hashrate starts dropping?

1387
01:06:11,551 --> 01:06:15,661
well, something they can do is they can
reach out to us at the demand pool and

1388
01:06:15,661 --> 01:06:19,641
we can help them set up a Stratum V2
pool so that they can, let's say, you

1389
01:06:19,641 --> 01:06:21,681
know, like Indiana Jones, but reverse.

1390
01:06:21,681 --> 01:06:24,411
I like to say Indiana Jones in
reverse because Indiana Jones, what

1391
01:06:24,411 --> 01:06:26,311
he does is take gold and put sand.

1392
01:06:26,421 --> 01:06:28,521
What we're going to do is
take sand and put gold.

1393
01:06:30,021 --> 01:06:32,761
You know, so they can basically do
that with their pool and their miners.

1394
01:06:32,761 --> 01:06:36,531
And suddenly, hey guys, you're, uh,
you're in, uh, now in a stratum V2 pool.

1395
01:06:36,531 --> 01:06:39,671
And, and we don't have these
financing risk and we're not

1396
01:06:39,761 --> 01:06:40,751
going to go bankrupt tomorrow.

1397
01:06:40,751 --> 01:06:43,101
And suddenly you don't get your
payouts that you work for, for

1398
01:06:43,101 --> 01:06:44,391
the past three, four, five days.

1399
01:06:44,391 --> 01:06:44,871
Right?

1400
01:06:45,061 --> 01:06:48,961
Uh, so, so I think that's something
that if they want to, that can happen.

1401
01:06:49,281 --> 01:06:52,801
But if they just want to stick it
out and stay at the FPPS, Okay.

1402
01:06:53,041 --> 01:06:57,761
While miners slowly realize the truth
that, hey, they're stealing from us.

1403
01:06:58,841 --> 01:06:59,161
Okay.

1404
01:07:00,178 --> 01:07:04,118
you dropped one more bomb in the
panel we had, and I think this might

1405
01:07:04,118 --> 01:07:06,898
be a good last topic to hit on here.

1406
01:07:07,268 --> 01:07:11,678
Was that mining is going to stop 10 years.

1407
01:07:11,703 --> 01:07:12,203
Yes.

1408
01:07:13,018 --> 01:07:14,578
But there was a nuance to that, so can you

1409
01:07:14,723 --> 01:07:15,243
Yes.

1410
01:07:15,403 --> 01:07:20,133
So I do believe that Bitcoin
mining pure Bitcoin mining

1411
01:07:20,163 --> 01:07:25,693
only will not make nominally
financial sense in 10 to 15 years.

1412
01:07:25,783 --> 01:07:26,073
Okay.

1413
01:07:26,073 --> 01:07:27,123
What, what did I just say?

1414
01:07:27,923 --> 01:07:30,043
Cause that makes a, that's
a lot of words, right?

1415
01:07:30,113 --> 01:07:33,933
Nominal financial sense means from
a pure balance sheet perspective

1416
01:07:33,973 --> 01:07:39,723
or PNL perspective of like, I made
10 in Uh, and I have costs of 5.

1417
01:07:39,733 --> 01:07:40,743
That's where we live now.

1418
01:07:40,773 --> 01:07:46,203
In the future, you're going to make 10,
but your costs will be 12, 15, right?

1419
01:07:46,453 --> 01:07:51,563
So from a nominally, like from a pure
economic perspective, it's not going

1420
01:07:51,563 --> 01:07:57,423
to make sense if you only take into
account, um, rational market participants.

1421
01:07:57,663 --> 01:08:01,643
But of course, if you're a solo
miner or a home miner with like

1422
01:08:01,653 --> 01:08:05,583
just two or five tera hash, and you
just want to get some KYC free sats.

1423
01:08:05,863 --> 01:08:11,133
You don't care if you pay 15 and you get
10 out of it, because those 10, they may

1424
01:08:11,133 --> 01:08:13,883
be worth much more, right, than 15 now.

1425
01:08:13,919 --> 01:08:17,789
So, so, from a Financial
nominal perspective.

1426
01:08:17,789 --> 01:08:22,649
If you do your yearly PNL in 15 years
and you're a solo miner only doing

1427
01:08:22,659 --> 01:08:24,509
Bitcoin mining, it will not make sense.

1428
01:08:24,679 --> 01:08:27,579
Like, I don't believe it's
going to be profitable in the

1429
01:08:27,879 --> 01:08:31,569
regular, in the mainstream, in
the classical way of the word.

1430
01:08:31,839 --> 01:08:32,909
Not fiat profitable.

1431
01:08:32,949 --> 01:08:34,029
Not feel profitable.

1432
01:08:34,049 --> 01:08:34,609
Exactly.

1433
01:08:34,919 --> 01:08:36,569
Um, so

1434
01:08:36,789 --> 01:08:37,779
What, what went into this?

1435
01:08:37,779 --> 01:08:39,489
What, what, uh, brought you to

1436
01:08:39,634 --> 01:08:45,689
basically the fact that in the past
two, three years, All, everyone has

1437
01:08:45,699 --> 01:08:50,659
started talking about secondary sources
of revenue, either be it by, uh,

1438
01:08:51,219 --> 01:08:53,039
doing ancillary services for the grid.

1439
01:08:53,049 --> 01:08:57,979
So helping balance the grid or by
selling the heat in one way or another,

1440
01:08:58,199 --> 01:09:00,689
or doing secondary types of things.

1441
01:09:00,689 --> 01:09:03,499
You know, some people are
distilling water in, in, in Spain,

1442
01:09:03,569 --> 01:09:05,532
actually a guy, super smart guy.

1443
01:09:05,532 --> 01:09:07,919
They're distilling water
with Bitcoin mining.

1444
01:09:08,099 --> 01:09:11,359
So in a way they're subsidizing
the electricity costs and then

1445
01:09:11,379 --> 01:09:15,489
getting something that actually
what every kilowatt hour that

1446
01:09:15,489 --> 01:09:18,929
they put in is subsidized by
Bitcoin mining at this point.

1447
01:09:19,059 --> 01:09:23,869
And it's already in profit, but then
per kilowatt hour, the amount of, uh,

1448
01:09:23,919 --> 01:09:28,619
industrial output of a set of hash rate,
but also if the still water, the distilled

1449
01:09:28,629 --> 01:09:31,029
water is 10 times more expensive.

1450
01:09:31,039 --> 01:09:32,529
So they sell it for 10 times more.

1451
01:09:32,729 --> 01:09:32,979
Right?

1452
01:09:33,139 --> 01:09:38,339
So yeah, so at some point, Bitcoin mining,
they don't care if, if they're, if Bitcoin

1453
01:09:38,339 --> 01:09:41,199
mining only covers 20 percent of the
electricity costs or whatever, they don't

1454
01:09:41,199 --> 01:09:42,479
care because they're making 10 times more

1455
01:09:42,504 --> 01:09:42,649
on the

1456
01:09:42,759 --> 01:09:45,539
is, this is the whole energy
companies will be miners in the

1457
01:09:45,539 --> 01:09:47,329
future and vice versa thesis,

1458
01:09:47,339 --> 01:09:52,399
In my thesis is that in 10, 15 years,
every grid, national grid operator will

1459
01:09:52,399 --> 01:09:57,039
have a Bitcoin mining team, which will
be nominally at loss, meaning we're all,

1460
01:09:57,039 --> 01:09:59,734
we're always, They're always pumping
money into them and they're never giving

1461
01:09:59,804 --> 01:10:05,864
back, but on the other end, they're fixing
or they're balancing the grid so that

1462
01:10:05,874 --> 01:10:09,594
they don't have these like outages and
therefore they're saving on maintenance on

1463
01:10:09,724 --> 01:10:12,424
destroyed capital and all of that, right?

1464
01:10:12,714 --> 01:10:17,014
So yes, they're losing money on paper,
but they're saving us a hundred.

1465
01:10:17,234 --> 01:10:19,924
So we're pumping 20 million
over here, but they're saving

1466
01:10:19,924 --> 01:10:20,974
us a hundred million over there.

1467
01:10:21,454 --> 01:10:25,904
So, you know, that, that's what I mean,
and anyone who's not doing that in

1468
01:10:25,904 --> 01:10:28,324
the future, they're not going to like,

1469
01:10:28,349 --> 01:10:29,869
They're throwing away money.

1470
01:10:30,134 --> 01:10:31,494
they're not, it's not
going to be profitable.

1471
01:10:31,584 --> 01:10:35,324
Like, we still have like five to
eight years where it's going to most

1472
01:10:35,324 --> 01:10:40,624
likely make sense still to do pure
Bitcoin mining, but, um, unless you

1473
01:10:40,624 --> 01:10:45,849
have free electricity or near free
electricity, I don't see a future in

1474
01:10:45,849 --> 01:10:48,079
10 to 15 years for pure Bitcoin miners.

1475
01:10:48,149 --> 01:10:51,929
and, and does this have anything
to do with the, the, the, uh, the

1476
01:10:51,929 --> 01:10:55,259
block reward is, is decreasing and
all this, or, or is this, or is

1477
01:10:55,259 --> 01:10:56,639
this even, uh, divorced from that?

1478
01:10:56,739 --> 01:11:00,799
I mean, no, it also has to do, but
the problem with that is yes, the

1479
01:11:00,819 --> 01:11:05,929
blocked, uh, like the Coinbase reward
decreases, but also the price multiplies

1480
01:11:06,259 --> 01:11:07,169
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah,

1481
01:11:07,329 --> 01:11:08,619
every cycle, right?

1482
01:11:08,749 --> 01:11:12,919
And electricity bills are
still paid on dollars or euros.

1483
01:11:12,919 --> 01:11:13,809
So, right.

1484
01:11:14,059 --> 01:11:16,589
It kind of balances out to that.

1485
01:11:16,919 --> 01:11:23,144
Um, but what we're seeing is that
Inevitably, the The hash, like the hash

1486
01:11:23,144 --> 01:11:25,634
price per kilowatt hour is going down.

1487
01:11:25,904 --> 01:11:30,244
It's slowly, you know, like
perfect market, perfect

1488
01:11:31,064 --> 01:11:31,844
market competition.

1489
01:11:32,104 --> 01:11:32,614
Yeah.

1490
01:11:32,794 --> 01:11:35,284
And like price equals marginal
cost and the marginal cost

1491
01:11:35,284 --> 01:11:37,154
of, uh, of Bitcoin mining.

1492
01:11:37,424 --> 01:11:43,179
Uh, The global marginal cost is not
what the publicly traded miners have.

1493
01:11:43,219 --> 01:11:47,269
It's what Gridless has with some places
where they have free electricity.

1494
01:11:47,269 --> 01:11:50,909
It's what the Venezuelan miners
have with free electricity

1495
01:11:50,909 --> 01:11:51,889
that the government gives them.

1496
01:11:52,179 --> 01:11:53,329
Yes, there's nothing free.

1497
01:11:53,359 --> 01:11:54,619
Someone's paying for it, I know.

1498
01:11:54,944 --> 01:11:58,354
But for them, from their P& L
perspective, it makes sense or it's,

1499
01:11:58,904 --> 01:12:03,524
for example, many miners like Riot
recently, I think they had, I think

1500
01:12:03,524 --> 01:12:09,864
it was in August or July, they had a
cost per Bitcoin mine for that month of

1501
01:12:10,044 --> 01:12:11,934
negative 7, 000 or something like that.

1502
01:12:12,344 --> 01:12:12,764
Why?

1503
01:12:12,774 --> 01:12:15,754
Because they participated in demand
response programs and they are so

1504
01:12:15,754 --> 01:12:19,554
much more lucrative than Bitcoin
mining that they got so many credits

1505
01:12:19,554 --> 01:12:22,404
that at the end they were getting
paid for the electricity that they

1506
01:12:22,404 --> 01:12:24,174
consumed at the end of the month.

1507
01:12:24,394 --> 01:12:25,244
So, right, so,

1508
01:12:25,834 --> 01:12:30,104
So the beauty of this is like, the
first reaction I have to this is like,

1509
01:12:30,134 --> 01:12:32,394
doesn't this mess with miner incentives?

1510
01:12:32,474 --> 01:12:37,014
But the only way it does that
is in the right direction.

1511
01:12:37,024 --> 01:12:40,424
Because it makes people sats
minded rather than fiat minded.

1512
01:12:40,884 --> 01:12:44,504
And it makes the miners, it
forces them to be sats minded.

1513
01:12:44,519 --> 01:12:44,609
Yes.

1514
01:12:45,329 --> 01:12:48,269
And it forces them to think in
Bitcoin terms because that is

1515
01:12:48,269 --> 01:12:49,769
the problem with mining today.

1516
01:12:50,009 --> 01:12:51,329
These are fiat companies.

1517
01:12:51,329 --> 01:12:52,559
They have fiat incentives.

1518
01:12:52,559 --> 01:12:57,119
That's what, that's why we have the
centralization issues and it's, it's,

1519
01:12:57,119 --> 01:12:58,859
but the game theory still works out.

1520
01:12:58,859 --> 01:13:00,239
And this why Bitcoin is beautiful.

1521
01:13:00,289 --> 01:13:03,999
And in a way, it also helps decentralize
it because, for example, if you live in

1522
01:13:03,999 --> 01:13:11,109
Norway, Finland, Sweden, and it's winter,
you can either pay 20 per kilowatt hour,

1523
01:13:11,139 --> 01:13:18,099
no, 20, that's nice nowadays, but 25 cents
per kilowatt hour, which is the price

1524
01:13:18,099 --> 01:13:19,219
currently, miners, they're looking for 3.

1525
01:13:19,219 --> 01:13:23,069
5 cents, so it's almost like
10 times more expensive, right?

1526
01:13:23,389 --> 01:13:24,969
You can pay 20 cents per kilowatt hour.

1527
01:13:25,584 --> 01:13:31,304
Uh, to just, uh, get heat, or you can
connect an ASIC miner, get part of

1528
01:13:31,304 --> 01:13:34,894
that electricity subsidized, and still
get the same amount of heat out of it.

1529
01:13:35,004 --> 01:13:37,044
So, like, what are you gonna do?

1530
01:13:37,224 --> 01:13:41,194
Like, are you just gonna, like, not
pick up the money from the floor?

1531
01:13:41,624 --> 01:13:43,664
Like it's waiting there
for you to pick it up.

1532
01:13:43,834 --> 01:13:45,744
Just, just bend and take it, you know?

1533
01:13:46,084 --> 01:13:51,414
Um, so, um, it's gonna, it's gonna
incentivize many more people to just

1534
01:13:51,414 --> 01:13:53,914
start doing small mining operations.

1535
01:13:53,934 --> 01:13:57,634
Just two machines in your house, in your
attic, which provides heat in the winter.

1536
01:13:57,634 --> 01:14:00,571
And in the summer you turn
off or you don't, who knows?

1537
01:14:00,571 --> 01:14:00,848
Exactly.

1538
01:14:00,848 --> 01:14:01,403
So that's,

1539
01:14:01,454 --> 01:14:05,474
Well, and Finland also has this, and
other countries too, but Finland has

1540
01:14:05,474 --> 01:14:09,114
this district heating thing, and so
basically the municipalities are just

1541
01:14:09,254 --> 01:14:13,474
paying bitcoin miners to connect to
their system and provide the heat, and

1542
01:14:13,474 --> 01:14:15,994
they need it year round because they
need hot water year round, and so it's,

1543
01:14:16,224 --> 01:14:20,044
it's just, yeah, seriously, seriously,
some interesting stuff going on, yeah.

1544
01:14:21,524 --> 01:14:25,964
15 years, it's not going to make sense
because there's three main categories of

1545
01:14:25,964 --> 01:14:28,064
things that provide secondary revenue.

1546
01:14:28,424 --> 01:14:31,924
Those are the ancillary services
to the grid, so grid balancing.

1547
01:14:32,164 --> 01:14:37,790
Then there's the, acid unshackling,
so, uh, flared gas, I know it's a

1548
01:14:37,965 --> 01:14:38,416
Oh, yeah, yeah.

1549
01:14:38,421 --> 01:14:40,575
It's suspension mechanism in a way.

1550
01:14:40,680 --> 01:14:43,550
In a way, yeah, it's a, it's
a way to like, hey, you're,

1551
01:14:43,560 --> 01:14:44,160
you're just bouncing around.

1552
01:14:45,070 --> 01:14:49,210
Just letting millions of dollars flow
out of there and you're not getting them.

1553
01:14:49,500 --> 01:14:52,340
Just install this and
you're going to get them.

1554
01:14:52,350 --> 01:14:53,920
You know, it's that simple

1555
01:14:53,930 --> 01:14:55,770
Plus, save the thing from being flared,

1556
01:14:55,850 --> 01:14:59,810
plus save the fees and the fines
from the government and all of that.

1557
01:14:59,810 --> 01:15:00,020
Right.

1558
01:15:00,020 --> 01:15:00,230
So.

1559
01:15:01,010 --> 01:15:01,920
It makes a lot of sense.

1560
01:15:01,920 --> 01:15:02,200
Right.

1561
01:15:02,330 --> 01:15:04,260
And there was a, there was a third
category, which I'm forgetting

1562
01:15:04,260 --> 01:15:07,200
now, which I think, I know
it's the heat, heat, uh, reuse.

1563
01:15:07,350 --> 01:15:12,500
So, uh, grid balancing,
um, asset, I hate it.

1564
01:15:12,670 --> 01:15:17,690
Flared gas, which could also be
a methane right out of landfills.

1565
01:15:17,810 --> 01:15:21,820
So, and then also, um,
heat reuse, heat resell.

1566
01:15:21,955 --> 01:15:25,345
kicker is that none of this is
internet bandwidth dependent.

1567
01:15:25,935 --> 01:15:26,755
It's just,

1568
01:15:27,000 --> 01:15:30,090
Because Bitcoin miners, like I was
talking to the guys at gridless and

1569
01:15:30,090 --> 01:15:34,855
like, The bandwidth that you use in a
month for like one container with 300,

1570
01:15:35,105 --> 01:15:38,010
400 is the amount, like, It's nothing.

1571
01:15:38,270 --> 01:15:39,680
It's, it's less than a gigabyte.

1572
01:15:39,700 --> 01:15:41,050
It's, it's nothing, a month.

1573
01:15:41,305 --> 01:15:45,565
could send out, I found the correct
hash with a fucking Morse code.

1574
01:15:45,720 --> 01:15:46,590
with Morse code if you want,

1575
01:15:46,755 --> 01:15:47,285
It's so little.

1576
01:15:47,368 --> 01:15:48,615
It's tiny.

1577
01:15:48,710 --> 01:15:52,560
that's, that's something that Stratum
V2 improves upon, and I'm not sure if

1578
01:15:52,640 --> 01:15:56,880
Ocean also does it, but I know we do it,
and it's the fact that right now, uh,

1579
01:15:56,920 --> 01:16:00,070
and that's also one of the advantages of
Stratum V2, going back to that question,

1580
01:16:00,430 --> 01:16:05,130
um, the communications between the pool
and the, and the miner, so the miner

1581
01:16:05,130 --> 01:16:08,380
wants, so the, is, is, is, Unencrypted.

1582
01:16:08,390 --> 01:16:09,390
So it's plain text.

1583
01:16:09,410 --> 01:16:13,310
So you can actually like intercept
the traffic and read it, right?

1584
01:16:13,340 --> 01:16:18,240
That's 2002 internet levels,
like before HTTPS, right?

1585
01:16:18,640 --> 01:16:20,950
Um, so what does that mean?

1586
01:16:20,960 --> 01:16:23,860
When the pool is sending the work
out, it doesn't matter because

1587
01:16:24,160 --> 01:16:25,540
it's just, Hey, do the work for me.

1588
01:16:25,720 --> 01:16:25,940
Right?

1589
01:16:26,080 --> 01:16:29,850
But when the miner is sending the
responses back, the shares that

1590
01:16:29,850 --> 01:16:31,230
we spoke about before, right?

1591
01:16:31,620 --> 01:16:35,030
Um, there could be a man in the
middle attack, meaning someone

1592
01:16:35,030 --> 01:16:36,770
gets 2 percent of your hash rate.

1593
01:16:36,780 --> 01:16:39,860
Usually people, like when we talk
about this attack, we talk about 2,

1594
01:16:39,900 --> 01:16:44,260
between 1 and 5 percent because it's
low enough that someone would just

1595
01:16:44,730 --> 01:16:47,570
chuck it up to something else and not
think, Oh, we're being hacked, right?

1596
01:16:47,570 --> 01:16:49,620
So imagine you have 10x a hash.

1597
01:16:49,960 --> 01:16:53,070
Uh, I don't know how much money that is
right now per, per, per, I don't know.

1598
01:16:53,100 --> 01:16:54,760
Yeah, 0.

1599
01:16:54,890 --> 01:16:57,380
6 Bitcoin per exahash,
that's what you're getting.

1600
01:16:57,380 --> 01:17:01,550
So you're getting about 40, 000,
50, 000 per exahash a day, right?

1601
01:17:01,850 --> 01:17:05,180
You have 10 of them, so you're
getting half a million dollars a day.

1602
01:17:05,800 --> 01:17:08,020
So imagine now someone knows
a man in the middle attack.

1603
01:17:08,240 --> 01:17:10,990
Where they're taking 1 2 percent
of your hashrate and they're

1604
01:17:11,020 --> 01:17:12,430
redirecting it to another pool.

1605
01:17:12,530 --> 01:17:17,100
So every 10 shares that you provide, no,
every 100 shares that you provide, they

1606
01:17:17,660 --> 01:17:21,330
stop one or two of them and they send them
to a different pool under their account.

1607
01:17:21,600 --> 01:17:23,990
They have effectively
now stolen, what is that?

1608
01:17:24,370 --> 01:17:27,390
5, 000 a month, more,
no, half a million, 1%.

1609
01:17:28,215 --> 01:17:34,365
Yeah, 5, 000 to 20, 000 a month and you
don't really know because again with FPPS,

1610
01:17:34,645 --> 01:17:39,215
the formulas are so weird that you just
basically have to don't verify, trust the

1611
01:17:39,290 --> 01:17:39,595
pool.

1612
01:17:40,345 --> 01:17:43,355
So that's why FPPS is
dying and it's going to

1613
01:17:43,395 --> 01:17:43,925
for the win.

1614
01:17:44,395 --> 01:17:46,715
That's why we're doing
this pods in a fishbowl.

1615
01:17:47,935 --> 01:17:51,775
I've seen the whole time people passing
and doing like caricatures or what not.

1616
01:17:51,775 --> 01:17:53,025
It's hard to concentrate, you know.

1617
01:17:53,622 --> 01:17:54,552
General Kenobi.

1618
01:17:54,842 --> 01:17:59,412
In my, in my experience, there is no
such thing as luck as General Kenobi

1619
01:17:59,812 --> 01:18:02,952
himself said, like in the, from
the first Star Wars movie, right?

1620
01:18:03,612 --> 01:18:07,902
When Luke refers to Well, Luke,
we got Luke with the Star Wars.

1621
01:18:07,902 --> 01:18:09,262
Yeah, yeah, we forgot about Luke.

1622
01:18:09,452 --> 01:18:10,002
We forgot about

1623
01:18:10,012 --> 01:18:10,972
about the most obvious one.

1624
01:18:12,642 --> 01:18:14,602
Anyway, that's a weird transition.

1625
01:18:14,652 --> 01:18:18,632
Anywhere you want to send our
listeners before, because I think

1626
01:18:18,642 --> 01:18:20,232
this has been a great conversation.

1627
01:18:20,262 --> 01:18:24,392
It's not for everyone, because it's
kind of a complicated topic, but

1628
01:18:24,532 --> 01:18:26,362
it needs, people need to hear this.

1629
01:18:26,547 --> 01:18:27,467
100%, 100%.

1630
01:18:27,497 --> 01:18:30,847
I hope I've done a good job at
simplifying it for everyone.

1631
01:18:31,407 --> 01:18:32,007
I hope so.

1632
01:18:32,047 --> 01:18:33,917
I will hear it from the people.

1633
01:18:34,137 --> 01:18:37,317
I don't have a Twitter account,
uh, because it got suspended and,

1634
01:18:37,317 --> 01:18:39,397
uh, I don't care to go back there.

1635
01:18:41,087 --> 01:18:45,947
So, they can go to, I'm on Nostr, so you
can find me by just Kenobi, I believe.

1636
01:18:46,372 --> 01:18:49,512
Uh, otherwise I can send you my
end pop and you can put it on the

1637
01:18:49,515 --> 01:18:50,732
Yeah, we'll put it, we'll put it in the,

1638
01:18:50,752 --> 01:18:51,112
Yeah.

1639
01:18:51,372 --> 01:18:53,362
And then otherwise, uh, demand pool.

1640
01:18:53,372 --> 01:18:55,222
We do have a Twitter,
but we also have a Nostr.

1641
01:18:55,222 --> 01:18:56,122
So find us there.

1642
01:18:56,492 --> 01:18:58,982
And, uh, I think that's more or less it.

1643
01:18:59,072 --> 01:19:02,822
Um, also support decentralizing
Bitcoin mining and, uh,

1644
01:19:02,842 --> 01:19:04,072
stay humble and stack sats.

1645
01:19:04,142 --> 01:19:04,652
There you go.

1646
01:19:05,252 --> 01:19:06,582
Kenobi, this has been fantastic.

1647
01:19:06,592 --> 01:19:07,612
Thanks so much for joining us.

1648
01:19:07,612 --> 01:19:09,252
This has been the Bitcoin Infinity Show.

1649
01:19:09,272 --> 01:19:10,372
Thank you for listening.

1650
01:19:10,532 --> 01:19:11,092
Goodbye.

1651
01:19:11,242 --> 01:19:11,622
See ya.

1652
01:19:11,632 --> 01:19:12,122
Thank you.