FFS084 - Ella Hough

Intro

[00:00:00]

Ella: Bitcoin has been the greatest noise remover, maybe it's my personal guiding signal of where I want to put my energy, Bitcoin just allows you to put your time and energy on what you want to do.

And I think that's something my generation needs to know. Like, you know, you can actually, you know, seek a prize that you want, like  You know, job that everyone, the society tells you is the best thing to get, you know, did you really choose that for yourself? Is that the prize that you want to devote your life to trying to win?

I just think that's an interesting touch point with my generation in particular, that, you know, what is Bitcoin? Like it's not just money, it's so much more and it can just allow you to live the life that you want to live. to live.

Luke: Welcome back to the Freedom Footprint Show, the Bitcoin philosophy show with Knut Svanholm and me, Luke the Pseudo Finn. And we're here today with Ella Hough, prominent Generation Z Bitcoiner. And she also does work with the Bitcoin Students Network and has some interesting things to talk about relating to cognitive science.

We're really happy to have you here, Ella. So welcome to the Freedom Footprint Show.

Ella: Oh, thank you so much, Luke and Knut. So happy to be here.

Introduction to Ella Hough

Knut: Yeah, great to have you on, Nella. And, [00:01:00] uh, yeah, first of all, tell us a little about yourself. Who are you and how did you get into Bitcoin? How did you get orange pilled?

Ella: Yes, happy to. Well, it was a journey, I think, like everyone, um, but my name is Ella Hough. I am a junior in college studying cognitive science, um, as well as some minors in information science and business. However, that might change a little bit going into the future. but I, Kind of describe my Bitcoin journey, I would say in three stages or three notable stages, if I could differentiate them.

First, it was purely kind of number go up. when I was in high school, I took a class just on blockchain. That's what it was called. Um, I was in a certificate program called the Technology Innovation and Entrepreneurship, Entrepreneurship Certificate. And there were different classes you need to take to kind of qualify.

So Blockchain was one. it was honestly very like blockchain and the supply chain use case. Bitcoin was just like a blip in the course, I would say. and then I saw the MIT OpenCourseWare, Gary Gensler and, you know, blockchain and [00:02:00] money, all of that. And then, so that was number one, purely Bitcoin is just money.

You know, maybe it's this thing you can invest in. then I went to the Oslo Freedom Forum and this I think was really. The pivotal moment. This is what I'm going to call the freedom go up part of my journey. and it was just, you know, Bitcoin as money is like the least interesting thing about it, or, I mean, maybe that's a big statement, but there's just so much more to it.

and now, um, Erik Cason said this, the greatest wealth you get in Bitcoin is the knowledge. And so I think that's kind of where I am now in my. knowledge go up phase, orange pill journey. Um, and it's, uh, maybe we'll talk about it's impacting my course of study going into the future. so that's kind of the brief overview of how I got into Bitcoin.

Um, and then what I'm doing now in this space, I'm a part of GenerationBitcoin, which is kind of two pillared, um, approach connecting young students to create GenerationB to education and then career opportunities. Um, and then the Bitcoin [00:03:00] Students Network is a new group that we put together.

and the main mission here, it's. More focused at university students is help them, you know, connect, start their own university clubs, connect them again to education, collaboration, um, career jobs. So everything under that realm and it's, um, completely worldwide, global, not just in the US. So that's a very exciting part of it.

Um, so yeah, it's a little bit about me and some of the different. Areas I spend my time in.

Knut: Yeah, so it's so cool how, uh, how the world is so interconnected nowadays, when you think about it, like in comparison to when I grew up in the eighties, in, in cold, cold war Sweden where, uh, we had two state fun, uh, funded TV channels and three state funded radio channels. And that was it, it's like, well, you could buy a magazine and read about artists from other countries, uh, but.

That's like the only [00:04:00] exposure we had to, to things from, from anywhere else. Uh, we were allowed to watch Donald Duck cartoons, uh, once a year on, on Christmas Eve. So, so a lot has changed and I, I'm like loving this seeing, that's one of the things that keeps me optimistic about the future, despite all the bullshit that's going on.

Interconnectivity of the World

Knut: Uh. It's just this interconnectedness and how, how easy it is for people to connect, especially like people from the generation growing up now. I mean, even younger than you, they will, they will have known nothing else, but, you know, a totally interconnected world. And I guess that somehow ties into, uh, Cognitive science, but yeah, let, let's, uh, let's unpack that a bit first.

What, what are your thoughts on that and like the interconnectivity of the world today?

Ella: Yeah. And it's funny because so obviously Zoom, like it's always in, that always kind of pops [00:05:00] first in my mind because I remember when I was a freshman or no sophomore in high school. So this was like 2018 and I had to have a Zoom meeting and this obviously pre COVID and I was like, this is the weirdest technology.

What are they having me download? I don't understand this. And so. So I think we've, you know, obviously we've had phones and that's made us more connected, but also now, I mean, we're not on Zoom right now, but we're all in different parts of the world and it, to me, it feels second nature to just, Oh yeah, we can just all hop on a call.

This is normal. Have a conversation. so yeah, it's like every 18 months or whatever the time frame is, we do all get more interconnected. Um, And as you point out, you know, communication can travel faster when there's more, you know, nodes connected in a network. And so, um, yeah, Bitcoin, I think, is only going to increasingly make us more connected.

Um, this might lead us down a total other tangent, but I took a class on language and kind of in the Thought of AI and how we can actually transmit [00:06:00] messages in their full extent. it's like the short summary of it, but, uh, Bitcoin will have very dramatic effects in my opinion on connectivity moving forward as well.

Knut: Yeah, it's, it's, if, if there's one good thing that Covid brought or, uh, I shouldn't say covid, I should say that the stupid lockdowns. It's, it's that, it's, so, it accelerated the. Zoom and similar technologies. So, so they're much more efficient and convenient now than they were pre COVID. I mean, pre COVID we, I mean, video conferencing existed, but it wasn't used at all to the same extent.

so yeah, I think it's really cool.

Cognitive Science Studies

Knut: So, so what is this cognitive science thing you're doing?

Ella: Yes. So cognitive science, it's a very interdisciplinary major in itself. So it's computer science, psychology, philosophy, and linguistics all wrapped up in one.

Knut: No praxeology? No praxeology in there?

Ella: No, and, but I, so, and [00:07:00] I've proposed kind of an independent course of study and I, I know nothing compared to how you know on it, um, but I, I think it's relevant for it. And so that's something that I look forward to hopefully incorporating in that later on. but speaking about cognitive science, there's different ways you can study it right now in the university.

So you can come at it if you're interested from a very like neuroscience perspective. there's just about five different concentrations that you can look at. I'm somewhat making my own, because I've also become very interested in game theory. I took a class called Networks, Crowds, and Markets, um, my first semester, uh, sophomore year of college, and I really didn't know that great game theory even existed.

I thought it was just like the theory of playing like board games, honestly, at the beginning. Um, but I was like, wow, this is just fascinating. I'm trying not to jump too many stages in this process, but that was when I thought, okay, um, cognitive science is a relatively new major at Cornell, where I am, I'm really [00:08:00] interested in this game theory concept as well, and that's not in this major.

How about I create an independent major? what you could do. And so I wrote a proposal to have an independent major presented it. And it took me a year on that process. basically it didn't flat out get rejected. It was never approved. Um, it was always, you know, blockchain is the true innovation. Um, you should study the gold standard instead.

and then unfortunately, the man who ran the program, he passed away. So that's why it didn't ever get rejected, but there wasn't any kind of approval in sight. so I got back to campus this year, got a new, um, advisor and I've been working with her now for the whole of last semester to try and study it under a program called the College Scholar Program.

so I have the application submitted and hopefully I have a positive outcome on this. but the first major I proposed was all about kind of [00:09:00] innovation. under a bitcoin standard, kind of the interactions of people, information, and markets. so that was my first attempt at kind of game theory, cognitive science, all of that.

but then the new one that I put together, it's a little different. would like to incorporate praxeology in some sense into it. Although, as I mentioned, I'm kind of at the beginning of my learning journey on all of these topics. but the long title that I kind of put together is kind of unhashing this cognitive conundrum, if you will.

Um, how do our kind of Biases that we have, um, impact our ability to kind of not understand or disregard the implications of Bitcoin and what it could bring. so anyways, that was a lot and I probably didn't explain that so eloquently. Um, but now Bitcoin is kind of wrapped up in all elements of my life and something that I want to focus on, in school and ultimately write kind of a thesis on it as well.

Praxeology and Cognitive Science

Knut: [00:10:00] Wow, there's, there's so much to talk about, uh, there. Uh, I mean, first of all, first of all, praxeology is not a cognitive science, really. It's, it studies deliberate action, but it studies the action, action itself, and not, not really the psychological preconditions that trigger the action. All it says about the cognitive part is that an actor envisions a future in which him or her, he or she, has done an action and And that state of the future, the actor imagines having a little less felt uneasiness after having done the action.

And that's the only, that's the only thing, that's like the only, um Part of praxeology that has anything to do with cognitive science, I guess. [00:11:00] so it basically says that all action stems from the same point, like the same part of the brain. You do something deliberately because you think your life will be a little better if you do.

So, if I take a sip of water here, for instance, short time preference stuff, I do so because I'll, um, like, I'm thinking. It will quench my thirst as well as prove the point and yeah, so I think, mm hmm, done. I feel a little better. It worked. Yeah,

Cognitive Science Basics

Luke: So could you explain kind of the connection that you're trying to make then between these two things, how this relates to the cognitive science work you're already doing?

Ella: Yes. So, okay. For instance, um, in one of the cognitive science courses I took this past semester, well, first of all, I mean, the whole point of learning is to be exposed to things you had no idea about. So all of this is kind of just new to me and I sit in class and take [00:12:00] notes and I just like, write myself notes like, oh, tie to Bitcoin.

Like, that's kind of how I sit in class is my brain just always firing. Um, but a specific example. That I didn't ever know about and you know, you both probably know more on this than me, but just the concept of modularity and how we make decisions. Like, that's a very kind of central element to cognitive science in a sense.

and so we have like, Vertical modules, like, you know, auditory, visual, like perception. and let me preface by saying modules help us combine like general intelligence, which is smart, but kind of slow with our reflexes, our instinct, which is fast, but can be kind of dumb. And so modules have different properties.

with them. like domain specific. so an example of this that's presented in class is, two images of Margaret Thatcher. one is upside down and one is like normally presented. but in only some conditions, depending on the domain, [00:13:00] do, does your brain kind of process or fire? Different neurons in a certain way.

Knut: Hang on. I, I don't get the example of the Margaret Thatcher picture,

Ella: So basically, um, this is, uh, referring to the domain specific aspect of modularity. Um, and so We're so used to seeing images in a certain way. So that's kind of the main point. and when you see, so they present, sorry, it's easier with the visual, but when you're presented with the image upside down, you.

Or like something does not look right about that picture. Like her face is a little bit disfigured. It's not presented normally. And so because it's just kind of presented in a format or you have the correct input in that domain, like you can, your brain can either fire in certain ways or not. And then once the image is presented back normally, you can see, you know, make a more informed decision because you're more used [00:14:00] to it in that way.

I don't know if I did the best job of just

Knut: No, no, no, but it's interesting because I remember when my kids were really small, they did some tests to see if they were, their brain development was normal or something, and in some of these tests, they were asked to draw stuff, and I vividly remember my son drawing stuff upside down. and like, like it was normal and they, they, the, uh, the test, the person who did the test said that, uh, that is normal because kids haven't really developed that, you know, that kind of flipping, flipping thing that the brain does because the image is.

Literally upside down when it comes into the retina. So, so there might be something there that really young kids do that later get fixed. And we has to do with perception. Right.

Ella: Yeah, exactly. So, I guess, maybe if I try to re explain that more concisely, so, modules can only be certained on with different, certain kinds of [00:15:00] inputs. So that's just like the first element of modularity. Only certain inputs can turn them on. And so when we have this image of Margaret Thatcher that's upside down, we don't really know it's her.

We're not great at, you know, making sense of what we're seeing. When it's turned right side up, then we can have the correct input to turn on our facial recognition system. So maybe that's a better explanation of that. But kind of the second one is mandatoriness. Like, we don't always get a choice if we see that input kind of firing, turning on. so a common example that's used to describe this is if you're given, um, like you have to name the color. I don't know if you've ever seen, like you have the color or the word green.

But it's written in red, you might say red and not like you might say the wrong thing just because you can't stop like the firing or the turning on of these inputs. And then there's encapsulation. So this was what I was referring [00:16:00] to with different. There are lines that might be the same length but appear differently, or if you've ever seen, um, kind of like the table images where you might have like the same table but one is bigger or smaller,

Knut: Yeah. I love optical illusions. Like, yeah, I love that.

Cognitive Biases

Ella: so basically sometimes when you're making decisions, even if you know Like some fact about what you're looking at, you just can't see it. so where I was going with all this, so these are kind of all elements of modules and kind of different, we have like perception, um, sometimes emotions as well. this is all impacting how we make decisions.

this is all vertical. And then if I have this all right horizontally, like that all contributes to our decision making. And so just when we, you know, have that, and then all of the other human biases that we have, different principles all come into when we learn about Bitcoin, how we hear about it, how [00:17:00] we perceive it.

I just think that's an interesting thing. Like all of this is happening, like within milliseconds. And sometimes out of our control. So that's kind of the route that I'm going on. But I know you had a question Knut, so I'll

Cognitive Science Studies and Bitcoin

Knut: No, I'm interested in how that ties into Bitcoin. Do you think like, because you said before that this, that they were all about, uh, you know, supplies, chains on the blockchain and all this bullshit. So why do you think it is that people have such a hard time understanding what this. invention or discovery is and why it's so confusing to people.

Does it have anything to do with this modularity thing that they, they, they can't see it for what it is because it's so new and so, well, all the concepts are known, but put together, they form this new thing. So is that, is that what the thesis is about?

Ella: So, and this is where I have to say no, not exactly. I think it's also hugely culturally dependent. Like how Okay. I have a lot [00:18:00] of different theories on this and my brain is kind of all over the place. Um, but so, okay. One, I think it's hugely culturally dependent. Like how close are you to the problem? Like what are your pain points that you're feeling?

Ella: That's one. you know, if you're in the West or like, if you're me, there's different, you know, invisible, visible barriers, you know, the media that you're presented with, um, thinking that you have to buy the whole Bitcoin, like there's a lot of You know, different things that can influence. I kind of have a thought on like sometimes with consciousness and the quintillion effect, like maybe, and this kind of goes to the problems and the pain points, like we know if you're further away from the money printer, then you feel the effects, you know, of the money printer more.

You feel that pain in a greater sense, but I think in like the reverse way, perhaps, if you're not present, if you don't feel that pain, you can be More unconscious to what's going around. So the closer you are to the money printer, maybe you have an [00:19:00] increased lack of awareness, lack of conscious on some consciousness on something.

So I'm not at all saying this concept of modularity or, you know, availability, anchoring, representative biases and heuristics. Like this is why people don't understand Bitcoin. I don't think it's that simple. I just find it interesting to explore all of the different. There's so many things that we, that could be going on that contribute.

I don't think it's just one thing, um, but I think there's many different things contributing.

Knut: Yeah. And How does the, our inability to understand exponentials play into all of this, because like that's, that's a thing I've been, I talked to Jeff about a lot, like how most people just Just can't think in exponentials, and it is hard, but most people definitely don't have an intuition for exponentials.

Ella: Yeah, actually, I was talking to my mom about this this morning, um, because we were talking about, like, a mutual, you know, point that, [00:20:00] well, there was something on the TV about the price of Bitcoin and just, people just don't even realize, And I'm trying to think, I made a statement like, you know, you can't price Bitcoin accurately because you can't price the network, um, and to your point on exponentials, like the network and the more nodes we have in the network and the more, um, connections that are formed, all of that, I think, grows to your point at an exponential rate or exponential growth.

Yeah. And so. Like, I don't know, sorry, I kind of lost my train of thought where I was precisely going with this, but, I think it's hugely, you know, that's something else that we don't consider and shows up in many different areas in life and how we think about Bitcoin as well.

Knut: where I was going with this was, Metcalfe's Law, which says that the value of a communications network is, uh, uh, the, it's num, the number of users squared. which means it's exponential. Uh, and, and Bitcoin is a communications network.

So, so [00:21:00] the, the price not going up exponentially is just a lag, really. with each new user, the, the, uh, The network gets way, way, way better than we think it does, first and foremost, most, it's a communications network, uh, because it's all information. that's where I was going with it.

Ella: Yeah. Yes. No, I think you're exactly right there, but I also think not everyone will get there. Like, not everyone will go down the rabbit hole as far as that. Which is okay. Okay. Um, like most of my friends, like, you know, you have this quote, like Bitcoin isn't the signal, but it's the greatest noise remover.

And I love that because I think for me, like I, before Bitcoin, I sort of mentioned this, I was really interested in AI and ethics and, you know, how is it possible that AI could exhibit empathy? Is that a possibility? But [00:22:00] then I found Bitcoin, I was like, no, this is what I, I have to think about and work on and spend my energy on and studying.

And so for me, you know, Bitcoin has been the greatest noise remover, but in a sense, it's, I don't know, maybe it's my personal guiding signal of where I want to put my energy, but not everyone needs to do that. And that's great. Like Bitcoin just allows you to put your time and energy on what you want to do.

And I think that's something my generation needs to know. Like, you know, you can actually, you know, seek a prize that you want, like is. You know, the job that everyone, the society tells you is the best thing to get, you know, did you really choose that for yourself? Is that the prize that you want to devote your life to trying to win?

So I don't know if that directly follows up with what you were saying, but I just think that's an interesting touch point with my generation in particular, um, that, you know, what is Bitcoin? Like it's not just money, it's so much more and it can just allow you to live the life that you want to live.

Knut: No, love it. And love that you [00:23:00] picked up on that quote because it's quite a recent quote. Um, yeah, I think, like, uh, explaining, like, the, the, the, the deeper philosophical points to newbies, uh, the easiest way to do that is to, to ask really basic questions, or like, it's the same with, uh, you know, consensualism or libertarian, uh, thought tradition.

Like, ask them, for instance, what, what, what do you prefer, uh, mutually consensual Interactions between people or forceful, coerced interactions between people. And when you post a question like that, it's like, it's kind of obvious that one is. Inherently better than the other, and more preferable, and like, well, Bitcoin is a system that doesn't allow coerced interactions, it's all consensual, it's all voluntary, and when people realize that, I think that like, that's a [00:24:00] good route to go, and then you get all the other noob questions, but what about, how do you pay taxes, and how do you, well, I can't use it in the supermarket and all that, but well, Don't worry about that now, like, try to get, try to get, grasp this novel idea first of a system that doesn't allow for coercion.

Ella: I love that. I might have to steal that. Um, and I think another thing that you've mentioned before and that I felt in myself is that You know, it gives you a sense of agency back. It lets you just control what you think about. And I'm very lucky right now that I get to have this time to focus on this.

Like I think not everyone just has, you know, to touch on the show, the freedom to pursue this thought and to have, you know, these conversations about thinking like not everyone can do that. And you've made this point a lot. Um, so that's something else to just be aware of and acknowledge. as well.

Luke: Alright, you might have noticed that we've [00:25:00] recently partnered with AmberApp. After our episode with Izzy, their CEO, and our close friend, we knew we would have to partner with them in some way, If you haven't seen our episode with Izzy, definitely go check it out, you'll see why it's such a great fit, and honestly, they're following the orange glowing light like Izzy always says, and that's exactly what we try to do here at the Freedom Footprint Show.

The big news about AmberApp is that they're going to be launching their version 2. I've seen some of the screenshots and it looks fantastic. They're going to be including a non custodial on chain wallet, an anonymous lightning wallet, a fiat wallet, And finally, it's going to be an exchange, of course. it's going to be just this super app, They're also going to be launching globally.

Everyone's going to be able to use it. we're really excited about all that. Stay tuned with us and you'll hear all about it. And for now, check out their website, amber. app and the episode with Izzy to find out more.

Increasing Freedom Footprint

Knut: So, so what, what would you say you're doing to [00:26:00] increase your individual freedom footprint? Uh, like what's, what's the, uh, what's the biggest thing you do to do that? Exactly that.

Ella: And I think the biggest thing, it's not maybe what I have done, but what I like going into this year, what I'm focusing on. Um, and it's, so I guess something that, you know, Jeff Booth said this and I've just really been thinking about it is where am I spending my energy and my time, like in what system and I doing that.

And so I'm not personally big on New Year's resolutions. I kind of, I picked this up a couple of years ago where I just more picked like a word. And so last year, I think my word was active, or it was active, um, and this year I've chosen, I think quality is what I've landed on. And so just being more conscious, like to increase my freedom, what am I doing?

Being more conscious of what I consume, where I spend my time. What does my day to day look like? and so going into this [00:27:00] year, but I am starting a Bitcoin club at school. so, you know, that's one realm.

Obviously I have my new. major. If it gets approved or not, you know, I still have my book list and, you know, different kinds of things that I want to read and learn about. and so I guess just at every level in the small decision and the big decision, just being much more purposeful of, you know, how I'm using my time, what I'm focusing on, where my energy is going.

and then, you know, trying to spread the message with people around me. So to help increase their freedom footprint as well, you know, just what can I do? And like, I'm starting the Bitcoin club at school and like the local community and the people that I care about, you know, and my family and my friends, all of that.

So it's kind of in every decision and just how you think about living your day to day life.

Knut: That's a great answer because the flip side of the freedom coin is responsibility, right? So what you're really doing is taking responsibility for your own actions. I would say that is freedom. Like if you're [00:28:00] able to do that, then you're free. If you're free to choose to, to take care of your own life, then you're free.

And vice versa.

Bitcoin Adoption with Gen Z

Luke: So, so, uh, yeah, I'm, I'm interested to hear a little bit more about what you're doing as, as far as, because part of what you're, you put out on, on Twitter and everything is the Gen Z ness of, of all this and, uh, this education initiative and everything. So I'm curious about, uh, you've already explained a little bit about the impacts of, of the financial system on your generation.

And I can empathize. I'm kind of a young millennial, so sort of close to Gen Z, not quite, but I guess, I guess the main thing is, how are you seeing adoption of Bitcoin by younger people? Is, is it, uh, is, is there any part of the sort of cultural landscape right now where all of the other struggles that GenZed is going [00:29:00] through, uh, uh, making, Making life a little bit more difficult in lots of other ways, how are you finding the effect of, of, yeah, the whole cultural landscape on how younger people approach Bitcoin?

Ella: Yeah. And again, I think it comes back to, you know, the cultural impacts that have on this. Um, so for instance, I was just in Ghana at the Africa Bitcoin Conference, which I was very grateful to go to. And I love that there are so many students there. I guess I wasn't really expecting that, but there were tons of students.

I mean, they probably made up a big chunk of the audience. Perhaps I can say that. Um, and. I think there's much more excitement about Bitcoin, or I felt more excitement from them about Bitcoin and using Bitcoin there than I did back at school. I think a lot of people in my generation right now are much more focused on blockchain, on crypto, and actually was having conversation with someone maybe two days ago.

[00:30:00] And they're like, Oh, but I want to buy one of the cheaper coins. Like I can't, I get, I can't buy a full Bitcoin. And so there's a couple of points I guess I'd want to make here. Um, most people don't know the concept of Satoshis. They don't know that there's a hundred million Satoshis in one Bitcoin that you don't have to buy, um, the entire coin at once.

So that's just kind of a. Baseline thing that a lot of people don't realize. but I think also right now in my generation, and I felt this too, it's kind of like this pressure of, I don't have time to think about saving for the future, my finances right now. Like I'll think about that once I'm, you know, get my first or second paycheck in my first real job.

Like right now. I would say my people are much more focused on, um, what internship am I going to have this summer? You know, my classes, my grades right now. So, a lot of people, I don't know if a lot of people [00:31:00] my age are really thinking about this yet. And not totally to their fault because we don't teach, you know, financial or economic literacy in schools.

and so unless you have parents, like I give all the credit to my parents for talking to me about these concepts and saying, you know, Ella, this is really something you should have on your mind and consider and think about. Like I had, I think my first paycheck when I was, I don't know, 14, 15. And like, that's when we had the conversation of, you know, maybe it's your money.

You work for this, but, you know, we just want to present you with, you know, maybe you should save some of this, like walk me through the process. But not everyone has that. So to answer your question, Luke, on what is the state of my generation in this, How aware are you of the problems? Like, how much are you personally feeling the problems? What are your friends talking about? What is your family talking about? Where are you geographically located? I think all of that matters. like those are just some of the initial[00:32:00]

The Nature of Satoshis

Knut: uh, Satoshi Or, or indeed a bitcoin, is that people don't realize that it's not just data, it's not just information on the internet, it's something, it's something more, and, and all data on the internet can be copied, and will be copied at some point, including all the data in bitcoin, and all the shitcoins, they can all be copied, and they can all be infinitely, you know, inflated to shit.

And they will be. The only thing you cannot copy is a satoshi, because a satoshi is more than just data. It's, it's, it's something that lives within your head, and it's, it's a part of the network, and being a part of the network is, you are the part, you are the satoshi, and the part, the part of the network that the satoshi represents.

You are that thing, because everything you're doing is keeping a secret from other people. And the only thing you can do with a Satoshi is move it around [00:33:00] in the network, within the network, you can't move it outside, you can't take it with you to school, you can't, you can't do anything with it, except move it around in the network, uh, and tell other people, you can give other people the ability to move it around too, that's another thing you can do, but that's unadvisable, it's better to send it to them, but that's unadvisable.

But still, I think this is the greatest misconception, and I find it so fascinating that there are so many people That heard about crypto and blockchain technology, but know nothing about Bitcoin, because it's so strange, like, it's, if you hear about, you know, Goodyear tires before you hear, hear of circles, or, you know what I mean, uh, it's very weird, uh,

Ella: lot of people that I, or how they're also presented to it is, okay, you know, Bitcoin was the [00:34:00] first, but there were some issues and now we've made all these others that are better. And like, you never, you're never satisfied with the first thing, but

Knut: did they get their information from? I don't know.

Ella: obviously we know that's just not accurate.

and I also think just talking to different friends at school and different, and you know, friends not even at school, just friends from different parts of my life, I think the ones that understand it the most are the ones that, you know, have the opportunity to travel or their family is not from the US or they are really interested in history or like all of the, you know, topics or majors that are not like math or CS, I think seem to get it more.

and that's another thing with learning Bitcoin. Like it's not just that you read the white paper or maybe it is, but for me, it wasn't reading the white paper. It was like, Oh my gosh, like I fully appreciate Bitcoin. It's learning everything else that I think also enriches, your belief on Bitcoin and how you understand [00:35:00] it and interact with it that also contributes and matters.

And again, a lot of people in my generation, you go to school, you have your one major. And sure, they encourage learning about taking random classes, learning about different things, but most of your focus is in one area. And I think, you know, I even fall into this also in my day to day. Like, I try and set time each day to just think.

Sometimes I don't follow through on that. but there's just also so many demands on your time. And, you know, you, you go to class, you just listen to what the professor says, you take notes, and then you're like on to one activity to the next to the next. And when are you thinking and processing and absorbing what you've learned?

Social Media and Attention Span

Ella: And then are you even? Doing that because I think another huge effect is social media and I never had social media like before Twitter. Um, I never had Instagram, never had Snapchat and something that I don't think we can study yet, but [00:36:00] that would be interesting to look at is what is the effect of, you know, just scrolling and all the short term content and just reinforcing high time preference in, you know, information.

Like how do we start to prioritize sticking to a hard problem? Like more long form content as well, you know, thinking not instant gratification. So I don't know where I was going with that, but I think that's another big thing that affects my generation and how we come to understand Bitcoin as well.

Knut: Well, it's definitely done something to our brains. I mean, even I get stuck with reels sometimes. If I start like looking at YouTube and, and, uh, after I watched, uh, a Bitcoin podcast, I get suggestions for reels and, and I just get stuck in it. And I, I get why it's so addictive to especially kids with that.

They're just hypnotized by it. by these short dopamine hit thingies, and it damages your other attention span, because like, I can't watch a movie anymore, like, I [00:37:00] find it very hard, and the movie needs to be really, really, really fucking excellent for me, in order for me to To be glued enough to the, to the same screen, like I'm so used to multitasking and flipping and flipping and flopping between tabs and stuff.

So yeah, I find, I, I think my, the attention part of my brain has definitely changed the last 10 years.

The Modern Education System

Luke: just another thing kind of when you're talking about the different majors, uh, I guess one question I have, because, because you're, you're, you're obviously in the, uh, the traditional education system, so to say, and, and through to university and all this, you're, you're doing everything right as per the, the, what the system over the last hundred odd years is supposed to be, right?

Do you think this system is going to change? Still continuing to be relevant into the future.

Ella: No, no, I don't think so. I, yeah, like daily, my mom asks me to drop out. Um, and, [00:38:00] uh, Anyways, no, I don't think it's not, maybe not daily, but I don't, I think it will have a big change. maybe I'm wrong in this belief, but I feel like where I, the age I am, where I am, I'm sort of at this, like, I don't know, maybe we're at like a tipping point of where things will change.

Um, I don't know, I feel like I'm at the end of how this model has traditionally worked, but maybe just a little too early for how this model Will work like a lot of jobs. You still need a college degree, I think increasingly less than Bitcoin, but it is a reality that you do. Um, and of course, like I still do find a lot of benefit in my education, like.

I still learn things I never, you know, would have known had I not been in that classroom, but then also I learn tons from Bitcoiners on Twitter. You know, you both, your podcasts, like there's so much information out there. Again, talking about connectivity, um, you know, YouTube has a lot of great [00:39:00] talking with people across the world.

Like I think all of those things are just as valuable. so no, I think the education model will change. A lot. And I think that's a good thing. Um, because, you know, just like I think energy should be fundamental, you know, human right, everyone should have equitable access to energy. So should education.

But right now, it's just a mass filtering system of only like certain people getting to walk through certain doors. And I mean, I just think everyone should have Equal access to education and, you know, even all the paywalls for different academic journals. And I feel like that's a whole nother conversation because now it's a lot of like plagiarism coming out and how ethical is a lot of this.

Um, but no, I think it'll change.

Knut: that ties into praxeology and Austrian economics as well, and how bullshitty copyright laws are. And the concept of intellectual property is weird from the beginning. It should never have been. The concept of owning a thought is just[00:40:00] wrong in every Every way. And, uh, so if we lived in a pure, consensualist society, that wouldn't exist, and information would be free.

so, uh, from the Rothbardian angle, like, uh, that would be solved.

Ella: Yeah. And I think for me again, yes, I've gotten benefit out of my education, the different professors, you know, that are there and the community of people, like, it's really nice to talk to people about different ideas to make friends across different disciplines. And that's really hard to create in a virtual environment.

I guess during COVID, I had a little bit different of an experience because COVID happened when I was doing a year abroad in Beijing. And so I had. Kind of professors and then I came back and was enrolled in kind of like my homeschool and I was also taking classes online in a different school, so I had a lot of connection all over the place, but I think on the whole, when you're learning in a virtual environment, you [00:41:00] miss that kind of collective community effort of talking about different ideas and how someone else is engaging with topics.

So I do think there is a value to kind of learning with. Others, but also like it's a, like to the filtering system, like the greatest benefit I think out of all of this college degree is like, oh, well, Ella just got through the filter of an IV, but I don't think that that, you know, whatever you want to call that really will hold.

in the future. Um, I really like the ideas in Bitcoin about how it's more of like a meritocracy proof of work. Like, did you actually study? Did you actually do the work yourself? and I, I hope we see more of that also going into the future.

Knut: I absolutely loved that when I got into Bitcoin because like, uh, all of my fiat life, it was all, like in every, in every fiat job and in every fiat institution I was ever in, like these titles mattered more than, than anything else. and it felt so wrong and so [00:42:00] weird, like, like, why aren't you listening to me?

Or why aren't you listening to this guy? It seems, or, or why aren't you listening to her? She seems to know what she's talking about. And, and, um. But, but if you didn't have a, you know, a title to your name, you never got anywhere. And Bitcoin was the complete opposite. Like, the only thing that got you anywhere in Bitcoin was like merit.

Uh, have you done something or not? Like, have you contributed? so this is very, very refreshing to be in Bitcoin circles for me, having been in fiat

Ella: Yes, absolutely.

Knut: oh, ba

COVID-19 in China

Knut: Yeah, before I forget, how was, uh, COVID in Beijing? Like, that sounds like a horrible place to be during COVID.

Ella: So actually, so I, um, was only there about, I want to say five or six months. So it was my junior year of high school. Um, [00:43:00] 2019 was when I got there and then it, we were all. Just so there were about 26, 27 of us in the program. We all lived with a host family. Um, we all went to a Chinese high school, uh, program was called School Year Abroad.

And we all met basically when we got there. None of us really knew each other before we went. and then this was in late January. We were all, um, it was during the Spring Festival holiday, um, which kind of celebrates Chinese New Year. And it's kind of like, I think the map, the largest Mass migration of people at any time anywhere in the world because everyone kind of leaves the big cities and goes back to their hometown to celebrate with their families.

And so we were all scattered. my mom had actually come over to see me. And so we were together in southern China when there were like eight cases on Hainan, um, the island where we were. And I never went back to Beijing. Um, like I just. Returned home with my carry on suitcase [00:44:00] and no one knew it was happening.

I had a return flight back to China for early February. Um, and then I came back to Houston where I'm from, went to the big hospital here and they're like, Oh, you know, we don't know what this is. we have to run it into our infectious disease algorithm, go home. Um, and so I did. Then we got a call like midnight or something that night.

And I had to go back to the hospital. There was like an armed guard outside of the room. I tried to find every place I'd ever been in China. Um, so I never experienced COVID in China, but I guess I was kind of there. At the beginning, because we all, so that was January, I think I left like January 26th, something around then, um, came home, did a quarantine, um, and then I went back to the school that I was in.

You know, was normally enrolled in in high school. And then we all left for spring break. But before we left, they said, you know, you should ship your books [00:45:00] home just in case we can't come back for the rest of the school year. And so that's what we did. couldn't go back. And so then I just finished the year online, from my sending school, like my main high school.

I was still taking classes from my Chinese high school and then I was enrolled in another online school and some AP classes, cause I wanted to get more credits. so anyways, my COVID experience was basically just sitting at my desk, um, for many hours.

Knut: So it's probably your pile of books that infected America then. But that's patient zero, right?

Ella: Yeah, well, actually my, so the pile of books, I guess, started in the U. S. and then some friends who left after me ended up, my, my host family very kindly packed all of my belongings. Well, I didn't actually have that much because we wore a uniform and I just kind of went with one, like, larger suitcase.

Um, so my host family packed my belongings and then a friend. Took it back with her when she came back to the US. So

African Bitcoin Conference

Knut: All right. [00:46:00] Okay. Well, yeah, we're, we're going all over the place here, but, uh, another thing I, uh, that came to my mind a bit earlier that I said, well, how did you end up in Ghana at that specific conference and not one of the other conferences that most people go to?

Ella: yes, um, because of Farida is the short version. but I was at Bitcoin Prague and actually that's when I heard your talk about how like we are all Bitcoin, you know, because like, I'll like, I'll leave the explanation to you, but I. Like that, that talk was honestly like the biggest takeaway of my time there.

I just thought it was fascinating. Um, yes, yes, yes. and so then I shared an Uber with her and Anita, um, and just to the airport. Um, and we kind of got to talking and then she very kindly invited me to come, to speak at the Africa Bitcoin Conference. And so that is how I got there.

Knut: How nice. And [00:47:00] like, what a lovely story.

Luke: Yeah, exactly. And, uh, yeah, you're making it to tons of, uh, great conferences. We kind of stick to the, the European circuit lately, but, uh, yeah, fantastic.

Knut: for yourself.

Luke: Well, I mean, yeah, you're, you're, you're getting a little bit further out there, but you're mostly Europe.

Knut: Yeah, it's convenient.

Luke: yeah, yeah, totally, totally. But no, so, so, um, okay, so, you, you touched on a couple of things here.

So what's going on in, um, Africa, well, okay, maybe, maybe just even a little bit more about that. What was your experience there? Because, I mean, of all the places in the world, that's, that's one that is extremely culturally different from the, uh, sort of the, the Western centric Bitcoin Twitter, uh, that, that's kind of out there.

Was that your first time in Africa? What was your experience there?

Ella: So, it was my third time in Africa, I had been to Tanzania, uh, a couple of times before. the first time I was in a little village called [00:48:00] Majimoto, um, outside of Arusha, and so that was, I was there for about five weeks, and then I went back a couple of months later, um, similar area, um, not quite, um, and so then this was my third time in Africa, first time in Ghana.

And I'll preface by saying I wish I could have actually, I feel like I didn't really experience Ghana that much. I was kind of more just at the conference center, but, so it was my third time, and I thought it was, the conference itself was just very, I think, different from other ones that I've been to.

I think there was much more. Like real, it felt a little bit smaller, um, more real conversation or just sense of community that I found to be really nice. Like it just seemed everyone kind of flocked together more, which I thought was a very nice experience. More time to, like, I, like I said, I really enjoyed talking to the other students that were there and making connections with them.

I think if I had to say what's [00:49:00] the largest or one of the largest Takeaways. Um, and it's something that Femi said, which was, um, oh, and I have to put him, I have to make sure I get this right. If I say it wrong, I'll correct myself. Um, but basically Africans don't need Bitcoin. Bitcoin needs Africans. Uh, yeah.

Okay. So that, right. and so. Like the US, we don't have like the same problems. We don't like, we have a functioning financial system in comparison. And so for instance, somebody was saying, you know, um, through like B Trust builders, you know, don't go build the African Uber, like, you know, build like an actual solution to the problem that, you know, then Bitcoin needs.

And so I really like, that was just something that I really appreciated. You know, witnessing and learning and seeing.

Knut: Oh, cool. Uh, so, so what, what conferences are you planning on going to this year?

Ella: so I, right now, and this maybe will change, but Madeira, I'm really [00:50:00] looking forward to that. Baltic Honey Badger, I think is, um, going to happen. I've never been to like the Bitcoin Miamis, um, but I will be at Bitcoin Nashville, Generation Bitcoin has some exciting news for that, um, that'll come out shortly.

Um, so I'm really looking forward to that. And. Venice. I might be missing some, but I think those are the big ones. Uh, maybe Bitcoin Prague if they, if they ask me back. Um, I loved that one as well. So we'll kind of see how the year unfolds.

Knut: nice. All, uh, lovely events. Uh, yeah. You haven't been to Honeybadger before? it's the, it's the best. Like, yeah. Oh, well, Bitcoin, Prague and Madera are also the best, but like . Yeah. Uh, we love them all.

Ella: Yeah. It's nice. You know, I sort of mentioned this earlier, but just getting outside of your own worldview, like what I love about Bitcoin is like every day, I just feel like I know less just, you know, [00:51:00] being interested in. You know, uncertainty. Like that's why I went to China to begin with. Um, just the not knowing I really enjoy about Bitcoin.

Um, and the, like, I would prioritize conferences outside of the US, maybe over ones in the US just so, and see where Bitcoin's actually being used. What is Bitcoin actually doing? Um, cause Bitcoin, it's just so much bigger than what is happening. here. Um, so I'm really grateful for, you know, Farida inviting me to the Africa Bitcoin Conference, all of those, you know, different things that happen.

So

Knut: Yeah. Yeah. My tip would be do it now while you can. It's easier, it's easier when you don't have a family. Like, uh, uh, it becomes harder to go to other continents when you do. But, but still, it's not impossible. Nothing's impossible. But yeah, it's so fascinating. I stumbled into a Bitcoiner in the supermarket today, and there aren't very many Bitcoiners around this area where I am, but apparently he started a little [00:52:00] Telegram group, and there are like 20 people in this area, and uh, and the, so the thing is, this is what I've noticed, like, meetups and, and little groups of bitcoiners and, you know, groups on telegram or orange pill app or, so, they are literally everywhere in the whole world.

But they're very small, but the key point is that they're everywhere, absolutely everywhere. And I think that's fantastic. And it's like, it feels like, like Bonnie Tyler said, we're living in a powder keg and giving off sparks. That's, that's what Bitcoiners are doing. It's about to explode.

Ella: yeah, to your point earlier, just, you know, the network communication, all the nodes, like I think it's the little communities that will have really drastic effects, kind of maybe the domino effect on Bitcoin adoption as well. Just if everyone, you know, has, we started off this conversation, can just tell their friend or their family about it.

It's really exciting all of that beginning to [00:53:00] happen. I

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Bitcoin ETFs

Knut: yeah. So, so, so what are your thoughts on this whole ETF thing? Have you looked at that? That's, that's like the current thing now that everyone's talking about. So like, have you looked into that any, like, like, do you know anything about that?

Luke: Never mind, this will be, uh, three weeks after the supposed announcement, et cetera. So, you know, use your words carefully.

Knut: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Ella: guess it's a, yeah, it's a little hard to escape it, I think. Not that you're trying to escape it. Um, I never will buy the ETF or, like, I have no interest in purchasing the ETF. I think it's maybe long term, like, low time preference. perhaps a negative, um, because [00:55:00] now we're just like centralizing huge hordes of Bitcoin.

Like it just goes back to the basics of your bank account. You know, the balance you see, it's a credit, it's an IOU. Like that's not actually your property. That's not actually your wealth. Um, and so sure, I guess, okay, now more people know about Bitcoin. Um, like at least in the U S sure. Now maybe it's easier for them to buy it.

But, I don't know, like a doomsday scenario, again, I was talking about this this morning as well, like, like the government could perhaps, you know, step in and say, like 6102, like, you know, April 5th, 1933, everyone turn in your gold, like, how could they not just do the same, like, you know, whatever, BlackRock, time to hand over, like, the Bitcoin, um, and, I think I've looked in the past, like, what are the patterns at which big events like this happen?

Um, and so for instance, I looked back, a lot of the financial crises have about 40 year [00:56:00] periods of happening. And then obviously we know we have a new world reserve currency about every hundred years. Um, and when I was looking at this, like. around 2040 kind of coalesced as another kind of, um, both of these events happening.

And so on the ETF, like, uh, these are all just random thoughts. Um, yeah, I think long term it could not be so good.

Knut: Okay, so this is the call to action I'd like to say here, for the only coins that can be, that can be centralized are the coins in the ETF. So don't sell your coins, like even if Bitcoin goes to a million, don't let your coins be a part of that thing that is going to be centralized and confiscated at some point.

The, the thing, the thing here, like always, is like. Keep the lion's share of your Bitcoin, don't ever sell them. That's, that's how we keep this thing, uh, the [00:57:00] way it was intended. Like, you need your stack, like, take care of your stack and your stack will take care of you. Because you're part, you're, you're the same thing.

Boo.

Ella: hmm. I know. And I don't know if this exactly relates, but another podcast I was listening to this morning, or maybe not, it was a TED talk, um, cybercrime is like the third largest economy. And so again, like, I don't know, this just brings up like the Jason Lowery, all of that topic on how are we securing cyberspace.

Um, but just again, you know, I don't know how exactly this doesn't really relate to the ETF. Um, but I, yeah,

Knut: The whole, the whole fiat currency system is the world's biggest cybercrime. It is cybercrime, literally. That's what it is. Like, uh, at least when we had bills, they were, there was a production cost to them. Like creating a digital dollar is absolutely free and some people have the right [00:58:00] to do that and why it's, it's, it's criminal.

That's the only way to explain it, counterfeiting.

Ella: this, you just, when you said digital dollar, it made me think also of CBDCs and like a lot of people that I kind of interacted with. Like, I just hear CBDC and you just like, I think we all hear that. And it's like. You know, fear, like that's bad. Like, you know, not good, but a lot of people, I think my age don't have that instinct response yet as well.

And so that's just another topic area that I think is also important to educate about as well. Like people just, oh, there's so many things to educate about, but. Um, just really what is property, property rights, um, how you're securing your wealth and your energy, energy for generations. You know, all of that, I think are important things to talk to everyone about, especially younger people.

Generation Bitcoin and Bitcoin Students Network

Luke: back to the younger people part of it, can you explain a little bit more about what the, the, gen, am I getting the term right, the [00:59:00] generation B, or the, which is the organization,

Ella: So it's, uh, there's two separate things. Um, so there's generation B, um, and then there's the Bitcoin Students Network.

Luke: yeah, can you tell us a little more about both of those in whichever order you'd like?

Ella: Sure. Okay. So generation Bitcoin, um, think about this as having a larger Target audience. so much, you know, it's not just the university students. Um, so the Bitcoin Students Network is much more targeted at, you know, are you in university, maybe a little older than university. Um, and so that's like, just who is targeting.

That's the difference there. Um, Both have missions to expand access to education and career resources. the Bitcoin Students Network, like what are, the idea is you're a student in university, um, you want to start a Bitcoin club or you want to, you don't know where to start, basically. [01:00:00] Think of like Bitcoin Students Network is like a one stop stop.

for resources. the website's under development right now, but the idea is that maybe you're presented with a map. Um, say you're in Japan and you see, you know, what's happening in Japan in that area. You have a point of contact, um, or maybe there's no one. And then you come out, you know, us, the organization, like, Hey, I want to start a Bitcoin club.

And we're saying, great, like, here's guides. Here's what a constitution could look like, you know, try to do all of the heavy work, any barriers that might stop you, um, initially, or I don't know, maybe you're in Italy and there's a lot of, you know. Other stuff going on that is already out there, again, serve as connection to people, different career opportunities, um, basically try to remove any barriers to you feeling like you can contribute and participate in the Bitcoin space.

Luke: Great, and what, what are, what is your role in both of these projects?

Ella: Yeah, so at [01:01:00] Generation Bitcoin, um, my official title is like project lead. and the Bitcoin Students Network, um, I am one of the co founders of that. So Generation Bitcoin, for context, was founded by, um, Arsh Maloo, who's at HRF. Um, Ishana Misra, she is still in high school, but she is the youngest Bitcoin Core, contributor.

And then Autumn Domingo, who works a lot on like the UI UX in Bitcoin. Um, and they founded Generation Bitcoin a couple of years ago. And then they kind of, uh, maybe it was two summers ago now, um, connected to Arsh through Twitter space and they kind of restarted Generation Bitcoin and that's when I joined, um, and then the Bitcoin Students Network, there's about, uh, we kind of have different telegram groups, but there's about.

Like 30 students, I want to say across like 12, 11, 12 countries. and then there's five of us that are working more kind of day to day on building it out. So two are in Italy, one's in Canada, um, and then two in the U S [01:02:00] that's kind of the makeup of how the different organizations are structured.

Knut: yeah. And how are you, how, how are you marketing this to other students? Like how, how, how do you reach students like, and how curious are they?

Ella: Yeah. So there will be a lot more to say on this topic in the coming months. Um, but you know, on our marketing and when we officially announce everything as well, um, But in terms of, we'll just say the Bitcoin Students Network, really going to universities. Um, so how this kind of started, part of it, well, actually Lucas, um, Ferrer, he was the initial kind of connector of everyone.

Um, but one of the kind of stories of why we realized there really was a need, um. I, cause part of my story trying to go to Cornell and say, Hey, I really want to study Bitcoin. I want to talk about this, focus on this. I even wrote a letter to the president of the university and the board of trustees.

And I, I personalized it. Like there was a whole reason of [01:03:00] why I think this, you know, connects with the history of our school and what we're. You know, we say we're here to do and basically a lot of dead ends. Um, and so like, okay, instead of trying to go, you know, top down of, you know, all these people, students look to universities to tell them what to study, what to value, what they should spend their time on.

Well, if the, if the universities are never going to, or not never, but right now, not going to tell them that Bitcoin is worth their time or something they should look at. And then we'll try to be more bottom up through the students. And so, for instance, in the U. S., um, there's hundreds of blockchain clubs.

and so, you know, outreach through all of them. and so that's, you know, one method. Um, there's a lot of different education initiatives happening around the world. Um, who, you know, we've outreached to as well. Um, so, you know, I think. Bitcoiners just, my experience is everyone just wants to help everyone else succeed.

Like, you know, that's how I got to Ghana. Just the kindness and the friendliness of [01:04:00] Bitcoiners. so that's kind of part of the, uh, distribution of it right now.

Knut: Yeah. I, I, I love that angle that, that we're all incentivized to help one another because we are the thing, so we help Bitcoin by helping one another. Like, uh, o okay. These, these blockchain people that you talk about in the, in the academia world, like are, isn't there a risk to to, to, like having them in the bitcoin groups?

Uh, how do you filter out the bad seeds and the, the actual scammers, uh, and people who have just fallen for scams like they're, because those are muddy waters in my experience.

Ella: no, I, I agree. And to not say too much, I've experienced it as well. so for instance, I was in, um, the Cornell Blockchain Club and I was the only Bitcoiner. Um, you know, there's different people that are working on this project that are also in X school blockchain club, but they are a Bitcoiner.

Um, so I think, you know, in many instances, [01:05:00] there's, maybe there's one person who is a Bitcoiner who, you know, trying to talk about Bitcoin in that message. Um, but at least like, you know, just when you go to, at least in the U. S., how it works when you start a club. You, there's like a whole process that it has to go with.

And one of the first questions they ask you is, is there a club already established on campus that's similar in nature? And often if you're new to a school, as was my case, you know, you might just not know enough people there to initially start a club. There might not be a faculty advisor that wants to sponsor your club.

Like you just, there might be some roadblocks that stop you when you initially get there. And so you're like, okay, you know, I'll join the blockchain club and I'll just, you know, talk about Bitcoin and, um, try and, you know, spread the Bitcoin message to new members that come into the club, or that might be a thought process.

Um, so we haven't outreached yet to all [01:06:00] of the blockchain clubs, like. You know, we have our list, but I know from a test case, like I was the one person, so I have to, you know, at least optimistic and believing that, you know, maybe in the, you know, hundred some odd list we have, well, if there's just one in each of those clubs, then we have, you know, a hundred some odd students now around the US that are talking about Bitcoin and that are now connected and feel not isolated or alone in their pursuit of studying Bitcoin and sharing Bitcoin.

So there is a risk, but, um, we kind of have, oh, sorry, we have it structured where, you know, you only like the clubs, they're Bitcoin only. Um, they're, they're not like pseudo Bitcoin.

Knut: Good to hear. Um, yeah, it's, it's, it's going to be so fantastic to watch this all play out. It has been fantastic and it's going to continue to be fantastic as we grow bigger everywhere. I, I just love it. It's all positive.

Ella: [01:07:00] Exactly. Yes. And I, I think ultimately, you know, right now the scales, it's like, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's. Two Bitcoin clubs and hundreds on blockchain clubs. I think over time, you know, that will, I think everyone's going to go to Bitcoin. I mean, obviously I'm biased, but, um, yeah, it just, I see all the value lies in Bitcoin and not in anything else.

So I think eventually the numbers will move and it'll transition over.

Knut: So you said you're going to Madeira. How long are you planning on staying? Are you seeing the rest of the island and, like

Ella: Yeah, so, um, the, well, I would really like to, because I think often I have gone to conferences and not really seen much, like when I went to Prague, my flight kind of got delayed, and so I was really only there for maybe, I don't know, less than 48 hours. But with Madeira, though, it works out well because we have a February break, um, kind of the week prior to the conference, and [01:08:00] so hopefully that means I can get there ahead of time.

Um, I'll have to get back to school after it, um, but I'd like to, I'd like to experience and, you know, actually be in the place,

Knut: Yeah, fantastic. Like Madeira and Prague are two places you should spend some extra days in. Too bad you didn't get to stay in Prague because that's a, yeah, fantastic city as well.

Ella: Yes. Yes. And I know, you know, you all have planned so much incredible events happening. And so, you know, I'd really like to just experience as much of it as possible.

Knut: Yeah, and I know there will be a lot of Bitcoiners around the island, uh, like weeks before and weeks after. Uh, and it's, the vibe there is just going to be fantastic. I just know it. Like everyone's looking forward to this one.

Ella: Yeah. Yeah. I think so.

Knut: Yeah, and the, the orange pilling is going quite well, uh, pre conference now for, for retailers and like restaurants and bars and stuff on, on Madeira, uh, new places that accept Bitcoin are popping up [01:09:00] all the time, uh, like trying to front, front run the, uh, the conference, I guess.

So if you go to btcmap. org, you can zoom in on Funchal, you can see that there are now like way more places than last year. So, so, and that's fantastic for us to see who started, like when we started the organization last year, there was like one cafe, that was it. Uh, but yeah, it's, it's working and it's fantastic to see.

Ella: Yes. Yes. And, you know, your efforts are huge in that. So, you know, thank you also for everything you did to make that happen.

Knut: Oh, thank you. Um, yeah, uh, Luke, do you have something more in your mind here? Uh,

Experience as a Woman in Bitcoin

Luke: Yeah, so I think out of everything you've, you've talked about, sort of the, the picture for the, the younger generation, uh, but the other element of, of your experience, I, well, I would assume somewhat here, you're, you're like, you're a, uh, what is your experience as [01:10:00] a woman in the Bitcoin space? Because, so you're not only in this generation Z, but you're in this, it's.

Fairly male dominated, at least publicly, and so how has your experience been? Do you have generally positive experiences, some negatives? What's your experience like?

Ella: No, I mean, I think I, I think I have positive experiences. Um, yeah, I mean, I, so I guess maybe further context, I went to an all girls school, like most of my entire life. And something I'm very grateful for there is, you know, teachers wanted you to speak up and express your opinion. And so I think maybe just like from kindergarten, I was in an all girls school, except for a couple off years.

And so I think yeah. Because I had that, like, early on, like, you know, LA, what you say has something of matter, you know, all of that maybe worked to my benefit to enter an industry where it's much more male [01:11:00] dominated, um, I don't, just because I had grown up where, you know, say, if you have something to say, um, I also.

Before Bitcoin, I worked at IBM, um, on their kind of STEM for girls program. And so, you know, I kind of came in with just the knowledge that often women are less likely to enter STEM related fields and then more likely to exit if they're in there. So, I don't know, I think I maybe had more information going in, but it, it also was never some conscious decision like, oh, Bitcoin's more male dominated.

I need to be aware of this. Like I think Bitcoin takes everyone, it is for everyone. And everyone has a place. Everyone has something to contribute and add. Um, so yeah, I guess the short thing is I've had a positive experience in it. I'm sure it's a reality. There's less women, but there still are a lot of women, um, doing really incredible things.

Luke: Oh, absolutely. But do you have any thoughts about why there are less women in the space compared to men? And I mean, STEM is a similar thing, but [01:12:00] yeah, as you say, Bitcoin is for everyone. So do you have any thoughts on

Ella: Yeah, um, a couple different things. Um, I think just the obvious one, traditionally, women have not been in control of wealth in a family or making investment decisions, or maybe the ones really earning the wealth in the family. Um, so that's one thing that probably presents itself. another, in my generation, a lot of people think, okay, Bitcoin, it's only, only if I study math or CS, can I participate or have something to value, you know, add.

And I think often we see more like men in those majors in college, studying those topics in those clubs at school. And so something that I always tell my friends when I talk to them as well that are in majors across the campus, it's like, whatever you're interested in, you know, there's a place for you in Bitcoin, like people that are studying biology, like I always send them Brandon Quittem's, you know, articles, [01:13:00] like there's just Bitcoin, just, there's so many different elements to look at this.

Um, so yeah, I think maybe those would be my top two. Um, you know, often women don't think like they're the ones to make the, you know, financial decisions. And because it's Bitcoin, you know, you have the coin, like, oh, it's just money. Um, that's one. And then just how it's often presented as something to study, like the white paper, it's very technical.

Um, so yeah, I think those are some of the top two,

Knut: yeah, uh, like, if you have something to sell, which everyone does, like, anything to sell, if you have anything to sell, you should be interested in Bitcoin. Like, because it's the best form of money, like, simple as that.

Ella: yeah, but I think, yeah, again, just especially women my age need to know about Bitcoin, like everyone does. And I think SAFE has this great quote about like, This generation, my generation is kind of the first one, perhaps not to have to earn your money twice. [01:14:00] And I think that just really resonates and like, it's um, with a lot of people my age, because it's like, look, you haven't entered your full career yet.

You haven't made your nest egg. And this can be a good thing because you will work, you know, you'll earn your money once. And then if you can realize the power of Bitcoin and save in Bitcoin, like then you can retire and You know, find the signal in your life to, you know, an earlier point and, you know, not just have to spend excess time thinking about what's my investment strategy.

Knut: yeah, exactly. I can't even begin to fathom how much better the world would be if more people got to do that. Like, it's just fantastic, like, people doing what they want instead of, like, when you go into a government institution or a, um, Like a local municipality institution, like for, for getting some bureaucratic paper or whatever it is, everyone [01:15:00] working in that concrete 1984 looking building, they look like they want to kill themselves because they hate their lives, like, uh, and, uh, all of that would be gone on a Bitcoin standard.

So, yeah.

Ella: Yeah. So I think it's very hopeful moving into the future and yeah, I am excited for others to discover it and also be hopeful about all of this.

Game Theory

Knut: Yeah. Oh, uh, in the beginning of the, of the conversation, you mentioned game theory. uh, recently there was a very good explanation by this YouTuber called Veritasium, a very popular science YouTuber, uh, about, the prisoner's dilemma, scenario and how the tactic changes depending on how many times over you play the game.

And that was, that sort of spurred my, uh, it like got me going intellectually because I love the, uh, the thought of, uh, uh, I should say that the winning strategy long [01:16:00] term is not to deceive the other guy, but to, to, to be honest and, and, uh, only, only do, only be bad in retaliation to what the other party does.

And, and again, that, that type of, the Prisoner's Dilemma is a very basic game theoretical, scenario that, that can be found everywhere in biology and, and, uh, human societies, and the, the very fact that we are able That the best winning strategy long term is to be nice to one another is something that gives me great optimism for the future.

And I think concepts like these are very ill understood and underestimated or underappreciated. I think Bitcoin is a very good manifestation of that, like, uh, in Bitcoin it's even more so that, that being honest, it's way more profitable than being, than trying to deceive.

Ella: Yeah. So I took a class, it was just called game theory. Um, [01:17:00] This past semester, and I sort of in the initial stages of thinking on this, but I sort of posited that Bitcoin is how you can ultimately solve the Prisoner's Dilemma. And so to your point about the amount of times you play the game is critical.

So if there's, you know, n equals 10, like 10 periods where you're playing the game, it can never be solved. And I guess just maybe for context, like what is the Prisoner's Dilemma? so basically, you know, You will choose an option that makes you individually better off, but both players choose that, and then collectively, you're worse off.

Hence, the dilemma. but when you are in an infinite series game, um, when you don't have a finite period, there are different strategies that allow you to kind of now induce cooperation where you never could before. and so I found this really fascinating to think of because I feel like Bitcoin is the first time we have an infinite game.

Knut: This is wonderful. You've been having [01:18:00] the exact same thoughts that I have. Like I've had that exact same thought, like Bitcoin is the first time we've had an infinite game to play that, and in an infinite game, tit for tat is the best strategy. Which is basically, you're honest until, until the other guy's an asshole, and then you retaliate, and then you're honest again, and, given the benefit of the doubt.

Ella: exactly. Yeah. So, but then I guess, you know, also we always hear that, you know, question everything. And so then, I don't know, can I be interested in your thoughts on this? Like, are we correct in saying that Bitcoin is an infinite game? Like, is that a correct assumption?

Knut: I think maybe, this is semantics, uh, but, from my understanding of the, the, playing the, the Prisoner's Dilemma scenario over and over again, the game does not, Have to actually be infinite because nobody knows if it, infinity even exists, but, [01:19:00] but it needs to be perceived as infinite as possibly infinite from the, uh, viewpoint of the, the player.

And, uh, if you don't know, uh, so, so the only, if you don't know when the, when the game is going to end, the best way to act is as if it won't ever end. So that's all that's needed. Uh, so, so, you don't really need to take infinity, actual infinity into account, you only need the players to subjectively think that there's potentially no ending to this thing.

Ella: Mm hmm. Yeah, yeah. And I guess, so another thing that I only figured out because I got this answer wrong on the exam, like I didn't really realize and I'm still kind of grappling with this, um, but the assurance game, like, and the modified assurance insurance. game. I don't know if this came up maybe in the YouTube that you're listening to as well.

Um, and I don't know if I could even do a great job of explaining it, but [01:20:00] basically where I'm going with this is it matters, like if you have different games and you're playing for different amounts of time, if the prisoner's dilemma comes first or after, like before or after, like the insurance game, when you, sorry, when you kind of introduce a different game into the mix, that can also.

Change whether or not you can still induce cooperation. So, let me say this a different way. If there's something prior on, like with the trigger strategy or tip for dat, um, you need, like, to have that in order for you to have cooperation in the prisoner's dilemma. But let's say you didn't. If I'm getting this right, then it doesn't matter.

So I guess, sorry, I did a poor job of explaining all of that, um, but I think it's also interesting when you bring in other items into the mix, how it changes this ability to have cooperation.

Knut: Absolutely, I, I don't know if I know what the, like, the What mixing the insurance game and the president's dilemma, like, I don't believe I've [01:21:00] seen that scenario. What I do believe is that if you do the test over and over again, you'll eventually get the answer right.

Ella: Yeah, I need to go back and, the only way I can, I feel like everyone does this, but if you actually write on a topic, you're much better at explaining it or understanding it yourself. And yeah, I need to write.

Knut: Writing is good for talking and talking is good for writing. Um, absolutely. And it's, it's great to, to, to just box, to get a sort of flow to your thoughts that wasn't there before you, before you started writing your thoughts down. I can highly recommend it. Just to organize your chaotic brain.

Ella: Yes. Yes. So, yeah, game theory I think is fascinating, and something I, I'd like to learn a lot more about. I didn't initially realize how much econ math can be in it. Um, I took this course for the cognitive science course code that it was attached to, and there was a lot of like econ math in it that I was not so excellent at.

But, [01:22:00] um, I, I found the, you know, concepts and the theories fascinating.

Knut: Yeah. Yeah. Uh, what, what's that called? My, my favorite, um, maths, uh, uh, experiment that you, with the, um, when you have three doors and there's a game and there's a prize between the three doors, I don't remember the, the name of the game escapes me at the moment, but, um, uh, anyway, so you're, you're choosing one door, the, um, the, the host of the game show says that, uh, the, It's not behind this door, and removes one of the doors, uh, one of the other two doors, and then, then you get to choose if you're sticking with your first choice, or if you move to the, the other door that's still left, and the correct play is to move to the next door, because it's, the chance that it's behind that door is two thirds, and that's very counterintuitive, and there's a lot to that too, if you play that game over and over again and stuff, like, uh, yeah.

And where the point of measurement is. [01:23:00] And

Ella: Yeah. Yeah. I think is that the Monty Hall

Knut: Monty Hall. That's, that's it. Yeah. Yeah.

Ella: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Knut: there, and there are infinite number of variations on that as well. But yeah, I remember that from, from way back when I first read about game theory.

Ella: Yeah. Yeah. Yes. Fascinating. I feel like when I sit in those classes, my brain is actually like thinking and working and I don't know. I just feel excited about learning and in that topic.

Knut: Here's a game theory test question for you. Uh, so last Bitcoin block was nine minutes ago, or let's look it up. Like, uh, it was actually five minutes ago. So last block was five minutes ago. Uh, on average, how long does it take to find the next block from this point in time right now?

Ella: Well, on average every 10 minutes, but I think I got the, or I did get the question right

Knut: Yeah, so like, from now, five minutes have passed since the last block. [01:24:00] So how many minutes?

Ella: about another five minutes. I don't

Knut: the wrong answer.

Ella: I fell into it.

Knut: That's the trap. It's always 10 minutes to the next book. So even, yeah,

Ella: No, that was good. Now I'll never forget.

Knut: that's good. I feel like I've contributed to humankind here.

Ella: Yes. No, but I mean, to your point, you know, why we're having this conversation and you're in your conversation with Jeff and you were talking about, Oh, you know, we don't even know how our actions influence others. And then I think I left a comment like, Oh, like, you know, I listened, like I've benefited from this.

Like, um, so it will, like we all do little things in our day that we don't know how they'll impact someone else.

Free Will or Free Won't

Knut: No, uh, by the way, if you, if you like that episode with Jeff, we have a couple of other episodes that you need to listen to. One hasn't come out yet. That is with our friend [01:25:00] that is about, uh, cognitive science and, uh, and, uh, the, the concept of consciousness and, uh, well, uh, if we have free will or not and stuff like that from a strict neuroscientific point of view.

And I definitely recommend that one. And what was the other one that sort of, um, added on to the Jeff episode, uh, Luke, which was the other one?

Luke: Well, the Volker episode was the one I was thinking of, so, uh, you must be going somewhere else with this.

Knut: Uh, no, maybe I was just thinking about the Falkor episode as well.

Luke: That was the most on the, on the nose,

Knut: Oh, well, Angelo Morgan Summers, that, uh, we, we got into that stuff with him as well. Yeah. So, so those two episodes are highly recommended, especially handpicked for you, Ella.

Ella: Thank you. Yeah, I mean, I'm not educated enough to talk about free will, I don't think right now, but at one of the ends of the classes I took this semester, it presented the idea of instead of free will, it's like [01:26:00] free won't, because we have that delay in perception and then also in consciousness, like, you know, milliseconds.

Knut: free, free what? Free won't?

Ella: Free won't. Um, so it was this study, I think the man's name was. Benjamin Libet, if I'm pronouncing that right, um, and so, okay, I'm trying to get this back from memory, but basically it was saying that some of the order that this happens, like the decision comes first and then you have consciousness later.

Knut: yeah.

Ella: And so he was saying, like, there's a very small window of time, like, I think it's like 100 milliseconds, um, where you could be able to exercise that conscious free will, and, but his kind of point with he was saying is like, maybe we don't so much have free will, but we have free won't. Like, maybe in those 100 milliseconds, we can just, like, if the decision has already happened, it's like, we decide to not do that or not, if I'm getting this all right.[01:27:00]

Um, but that was something that I, I learned at like the end of one of my classes. Um,

Knut: that's fascinating because Folker's on the side of you know, that that window of time really doesn't exist because like, so we can't really influence our consciousness is not the mechanism that influences this stuff, our consciousness is just something that plays out. And I heard Yoni mentioned a, uh, a very interesting thing on Prince's Pod, uh, Luke, uh, about the same topic, and, uh, he's big into psychedelics and all this stuff, so, so his theory is that, uh, or he mentioned a theory that is actually is, someone had this theory, I don't know, I don't know who, but, where it came from, but the theory is that, uh, alright, so the universe is, seems to be made up of electromagnetism and, uh, fundamental particles and this, these things that we call, you know, [01:28:00] objects and stuff and light and colors and all of this is, is just how our brains interpret this other underlying thing.

And consciousness itself might be also just one of these underlying things that we tap into. So we're, when we're experiencing, uh, uh, subjective consciousness, that's just us tapping into something that was already there around us everywhere. So, so it might just be one of the And there it gets into hippie territory, but, but I love it.

It's fun to talk about. Uh, yeah. So I'm looking forward to talking to you and Jeff about that on Madeira over a couple of ponchos. Yeah,

Ella: Thank you. Yeah, I think it's fascinating. And, you know, whether the window or not exists, I guess, to Bring it all back to Bitcoin and, you know, your point about how Bitcoin removes the noise and, you know, the static and all of that. If, and this is what I'm interested in with the cognitive science, like if there's so much [01:29:00] happening and we have so little maybe room for correcting or not, if we do, then, you know, maybe we need all the help we can get in the world around us to try to like.

Like, do everything we can to just, you know, find the more, like, find, signal, act in the best interest that we can. Um, I don't know if I said that quite so well, but, um, even in conversation, like, there's, we miss so much, you know, like, I have to produce a response before you even stop talking. And so, I think just Like we have a lot of constraints on us and how we interact with information, interpret information, remember information, that if we can just, you know, live on a more honest ledger and more honest system, like that just has to be a net positive and a benefit moving forward.

Knut: absolutely. I think that's beautifully put and, uh, yeah, that's it. Remove the noise, make everyone honest, and everything becomes better. Honesty for the win. FFS. Yeah.[01:30:00]

Wrapping Up

Knut: All right. Luke, do you have any I think this is a fantastic spot to wrap this up on, I think. Do you have any more questions for Ella?

Luke: yeah, yeah, I didn't have anything else. It's been a great conversation. So, where would you like to direct our viewers and listeners to, to find out more about you and what you're working on these days?

Ella: Thank you, Luke. Yes. Um, so you can just go, I think the best place is my link tree or Twitter. Um, link tree, it's just LHUF, um, Twitter, 21MM for the 21st. Um, and then once you're there, you'll have easy links to GenerationBitcoin, Bitcoin Students Network, all of that. But thank you, Knut and Luke. Yeah.

Knut: Thank you, Ella. And if you've been listening, don't forget to like, subscribe, and buy a new hat. And we'll see you on the internets and on Madeira. Take care. This has been the Freedom Footprint Show. Excelsior! [01:31:00]