June 20, 2024

Inventing the BitBox Hardware Wallet with Douglas Bakkum - FFS #114

Inventing the BitBox Hardware Wallet with Douglas Bakkum - FFS #114
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The Bitcoin Infinity Show

Douglas Bakkum, inventor of the BitBox hardware wallet, joins us to talk about why securing your Bitcoin keys is important, how he invented the BitBox, and more! 

Key Takeaways:
🔹Douglas Bakkum's background in neuroscience and engineering led to the creation of the BitBox hardware wallet.
🔹The philosophy behind the BitBox's design emphasizes simplicity, privacy, and usability, setting it apart from other hardware wallets.
🔹The Bitbox offers advanced features for power users while maintaining a strong focus on security and user education.

Connect with Douglas and BitBox:
https://x.com/douglasbakkum
https://x.com/BitBoxSwiss
https://bitbox.swiss/freedom

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https://primal.net/freedom
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https://primal.net/knut
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https://primal.net/luke

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The Freedom Footprint Show is a Bitcoin podcast hosted by Knut Svanholm and Luke de Wolf.

In each episode, we explore everything from deep philosophy to practical tools to emit freedom dioxide to expand your freedom footprint. This isn't a show for bitcoin news or analysis - we dig into the deep topics that are important to us and to our guests. Join us if you want to go deeper down the rabbit hole of Bitcoin and related freedom-go-up technologies and ideas!

The Freedom Footprint Show is a Bitcoin podcast hosted by Knut Svanholm and Luke de Wolf.

In each episode, we explore everything from deep philosophy to practical tools to emit freedom dioxide to expand your freedom footprint!

Chapters

00:00 - FFS114 - Douglas Bakkum

00:00 - Welcoming Douglas Bakkum

01:19 - Inventing the BitBox

06:02 - The Intersection of Bitcoin and Neuroscience

10:37 - How BitBox was Built

17:43 - The State of Bitcoin

22:20 - What Sets BitBox Apart

25:38 - BitBox Roadmap

28:16 - Connections to Bitcoin Conferences

33:48 - Bitcoin's Regional Differences

41:31 - BitBox's Development Philosophy

44:57 - Security and Privacy

52:52 - Wrapping Up

Transcript
1
00:00:00,134 --> 00:00:01,964
Douglas, welcome to the
Freedom Footprint show.

2
00:00:01,974 --> 00:00:02,954
Thanks for joining us.

3
00:00:03,164 --> 00:00:03,394
Yeah.

4
00:00:03,514 --> 00:00:04,664
Thank you very much for having me.

5
00:00:04,684 --> 00:00:05,354
Happy to be here.

6
00:00:05,654 --> 00:00:07,034
Happy to have you here, Douglas.

7
00:00:07,064 --> 00:00:11,224
Um, yes, for our, our listeners who
don't know you, can you give us a

8
00:00:11,224 --> 00:00:12,934
little introduction about yourself?

9
00:00:12,964 --> 00:00:15,354
What's the TLDR on Douglas Backham?

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00:00:16,074 --> 00:00:16,434
Yeah.

11
00:00:16,514 --> 00:00:18,441
Uh, I guess I've had multiple lives.

12
00:00:18,481 --> 00:00:22,677
My, my current life is, with
the, uh, Bitbox hardware wallet.

13
00:00:23,227 --> 00:00:27,737
So, um, I'm the original inventor of
the, the Bitbox01, that's now retired.

14
00:00:27,747 --> 00:00:30,937
We're on the Bitbox02, a hardware
wallet for storing Bitcoin.

15
00:00:31,627 --> 00:00:34,877
And, um, yeah, at the
beginning I kind of did it all.

16
00:00:34,887 --> 00:00:37,971
I have a technical background,
but now I'm, uh, maybe by

17
00:00:37,971 --> 00:00:39,511
default got stuck as the CEO.

18
00:00:39,591 --> 00:00:42,191
And so I'm doing mostly,
uh, talking to people.

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00:00:43,561 --> 00:00:48,794
And, um, yeah, before that, uh, I was
actually, neuroscientist, uh, at the

20
00:00:48,794 --> 00:00:51,077
university here in, Switzerland, ETH.

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00:00:51,997 --> 00:00:56,607
And, um, yeah, I have a PhD in,
uh, neuroengineering actually.

22
00:00:57,087 --> 00:00:59,937
And before that, uh, mechanical
engineering did robotics, AI.

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00:00:59,938 --> 00:01:03,927
And so I kind of had the, Uh, from
my mechanical engineering background,

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00:01:03,927 --> 00:01:07,177
I guess I had some of the skills
developed, like coding, hardware,

25
00:01:07,587 --> 00:01:11,317
embedded firmware stuff to kind of
build a, build a hardware wallet.

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So somewhere in between rocket
science and brain surgeon,

27
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Yeah, something.

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between rocket science and
brain surgery, I should say.

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But yeah, so I'm curious, how does
one invent a Bitcoin hardware wallet?

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Like where, where does one start?

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Like, do you start with imagining?

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the software or the hardware and
like do you tinker like what what

33
00:01:35,512 --> 00:01:37,372
goes on there explain the process

34
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Yeah, so, um, I guess when I first
heard about Bitcoin, it was 2013.

35
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then after playing around a little
bit, I, I, uh, started tinkering with

36
00:01:47,516 --> 00:01:50,986
hardware wallets around 2014, early 2014.

37
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And the concept had existed at the time,
but there was nothing on the market.

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And, also at the same time, there's a
lot of scams going around in hardware,

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in particular with mining equipment.

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Uh, and so there's a lot of,
um, like mining equipment.

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There's big pre orders you had to
do, so you had to pool together

42
00:02:09,716 --> 00:02:13,126
a bunch of money, and then you
could buy some mining equipment.

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but the problem was that some people
started taking advantage of it and

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basically doing scams, so collecting
big pre orders and then, uh, running

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off with the money, or even fake
companies, um, just never delivering.

46
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And I didn't know if that would happen
with hardware wallets also, uh, and

47
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so, I thought, okay, just make my own.

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And I know when I first bought
Bitcoin, uh, given my technical

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background, I kind of had some ideas
of the security issues involved.

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took me probably a good two weeks before
I actually felt comfortable holding it.

51
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it myself, because I understood a lot
of the risks involved with self custody.

52
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And at the time, the most secure way to
do it was to, you know, put your tinfoil

53
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hat on and go grab some old computer, rip
out the, know, the networking parts of it,

54
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install like a minimal Linux on it, and
put Electrum on it, and then do all your

55
00:03:07,550 --> 00:03:09,260
transactions on this offline computer.

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I'm like, okay, you know, and this,
this This Bitcoin stuff, or at least

57
00:03:13,730 --> 00:03:18,020
the technology behind it, uh, I thought
was super special, super powerful, but,

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you know, it's never gonna get anywhere
if people have to do this, of course.

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And so HardwareWallet's, you know,
it's basically a way to make offline

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computers, air gap computers,
air gap system, uh, simple.

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And so, yeah, I started building it.

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And, um, yeah, that was in my spare time.

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So my day job was still doing,
um, yeah, neuroengineering,

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neuroscience experiments.

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Um, yeah, I was actually, I
was a group leader at the time.

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So I had a little team, um, had a boss.

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Uh, he was pretty supportive of
me also, uh, thankful to him.

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yeah, I was building some stuff and I
guess the very first thing I did was,

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uh, try to understand cryptography.

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That's probably an important thing
for, for this, this technology.

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Uh, and so I actually built my own,
uh, cryptographic libraries to sign,

72
00:04:05,084 --> 00:04:07,409
uh, Bitcoin transactions, from scratch.

73
00:04:08,809 --> 00:04:11,789
It, it took a while, but it was, it
was good for learning and they're

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00:04:11,789 --> 00:04:13,979
very, very buggy, very, very slow.

75
00:04:14,184 --> 00:04:17,564
Probably full of vulnerabilities, but,
uh, has a good learning experience.

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And then, uh, I think had that
as a base and then started doing,

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uh, yeah, the hardware design.

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and yeah, people think hardware
is kind of complicated, but,

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it's getting simpler and simpler.

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So, for example, for 10, you can get, at
least at the time, you can get 10 PCBs,

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In 10 days, uh, for 10, uh, from China.

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And so you can do pretty rapid,
prototyping cycles, uh, with that.

83
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And, yeah, and started, started
doing some, uh, coding on Embedded

84
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Firmware, pick out some chips.

85
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you know, PCB design is kind
of like, uh, connect the dots.

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I guess when you're a kid in grade
school, you, you know, connect

87
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the dots between the numbers.

88
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It's kind of like that.

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You just have chips with pin numbers on it
and you, uh, well, this one's for voltage.

90
00:05:00,709 --> 00:05:01,899
Okay, connect it to voltage.

91
00:05:01,969 --> 00:05:03,499
It's kind of a fun little thing.

92
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and lots of open source tools available.

93
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So, you know, anyone
can really jump into it.

94
00:05:08,410 --> 00:05:10,250
And of course, you know, I'm,
I'm simplifying it a lot.

95
00:05:10,250 --> 00:05:13,160
It takes a lot of work, a lot
of, uh, uh, banging your head.

96
00:05:13,230 --> 00:05:14,770
There's probably a lot of
times where I'm at night.

97
00:05:14,780 --> 00:05:16,450
I'm like, is this ever going to work?

98
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Um, but, you know, you
keep fighting through it.

99
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I ended up getting a prototype and,
um, yeah, I'm living in, um, uh, Basel

100
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at the time in Switzerland and, uh,
went to some meetups in Zurich, Bitcoin

101
00:05:30,490 --> 00:05:35,956
meetups, really impressive, like a
lot of big name, uh, people in the

102
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space were in the Switzerland area.

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I got to meet them at the meetups,
um, and, uh, got really good feedback.

104
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And my co founder, who I started
the business with originally.

105
00:05:47,856 --> 00:05:51,766
Um, Jonas Schnelly is one of the maybe
most famous people in the Bitcoin space,

106
00:05:51,766 --> 00:05:55,666
one of the original core, maybe not
original, but former core developer.

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00:05:56,216 --> 00:05:57,476
Uh, we happen to live in the same city.

108
00:05:57,756 --> 00:06:00,456
And so then, yeah, we decided,
uh, started meeting up every

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week and said, hey, let's try

110
00:06:02,389 --> 00:06:07,742
nice and did you did you ever
consider viewing Making a Bitcoin

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hardware wallet to be neuroscience.

112
00:06:12,712 --> 00:06:14,472
So let me explain that question a bit.

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Like that's, that's sort of our, our thing
here on, uh, on the Freedom Footprint

114
00:06:18,762 --> 00:06:24,182
show is we view Satoshis not just as
mere data, but that's something else

115
00:06:24,332 --> 00:06:30,572
since, You need a human brain to keep
a secret from all other human brains

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00:06:30,732 --> 00:06:33,582
in order for Bitcoin to work, right?

117
00:06:33,972 --> 00:06:39,092
And if you think about it, every
single aspect of the Bitcoin requires

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a human to do something deliberately.

119
00:06:41,262 --> 00:06:44,352
It's not just code,
it's a guy running code.

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And the same goes for miners, and
for node runners, and for users.

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It all requires, uh, human action
and, uh, deliberate action.

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00:06:56,087 --> 00:07:02,017
So, in a way, you could view, uh, keeping,
uh, keeping the secret of where your

123
00:07:02,017 --> 00:07:07,932
hardware wallet is and, uh, the passphrase
for it as Neuroscience, I guess,

124
00:07:08,232 --> 00:07:12,772
because it's a, it's a bridge between
the human brain and, and the computer.

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Um, yeah, this is a bit
hippie ish, I know, but yeah.

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I would say there's some, there's some
theories in, um, computer science,

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cognitive science, um, that talk about,
uh, the importance of embodied cognition,

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and this was actually kind of part
of my research, um, part of my PhD.

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where the theory is that you can't
really separate the brain from

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the body from the environment.

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It all works together.

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Uh, and so, like, uh, if you want to
study intelligence, it has to be, uh,

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in situ, in, in, um, in its natural
environment, uh, in order for it, because

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it's designed to operate from your
senses, it's designed to operate from,

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uh, the world around it, around it.

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00:07:57,925 --> 00:08:01,585
And so, and in that sense, uh,
I would say neuroscientists.

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00:08:02,627 --> 00:08:06,517
of them, maybe many of them, think that
everything is, uh, part of the brain.

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00:08:08,897 --> 00:08:11,207
You're saying everything
is part of Satoshi.

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00:08:11,247 --> 00:08:12,847
Neuroscience say everything
is part of the brain.

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So maybe, yeah, I guess it fits together.

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Yeah.

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I love that.

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There's a lot of that, that
kind of stuff in the, in the

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book we're writing currently.

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And like, because there's no, no one
knows to which extent the brain creates

146
00:08:26,637 --> 00:08:32,437
reality and the, the, the objective
subjective dichotomy might be entirely.

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You know, um, what's the word?

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00:08:38,622 --> 00:08:39,302
Um,

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Fictitious.

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00:08:40,272 --> 00:08:41,102
fictitious.

151
00:08:41,122 --> 00:08:42,102
Yeah, exactly.

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think, yeah, Philosophy 101, they
teach you about the mind in a vat.

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Uh, experiment, I think, where how
can you tell if you're in the real

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world or if you're in a simulation?

155
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I think there's no answer.

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Yeah.

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Are you familiar with the concept
called the Boltzmann brain?

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Not the name.

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I'm not sure.

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00:08:58,127 --> 00:09:02,127
Uh, there's Ludwig
Boltzmann from Boltzmann.

161
00:09:02,127 --> 00:09:06,567
I, I don't, I don't remember if there's
a von there or not, but Boltzmann, uh,

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came up with the concept of, you know,
since, um, quantum mechanics is a thing.

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A particle can just.

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theoretically pop up,
uh, into being anywhere.

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And if the universe is truly infinite,
then there would be a chance of, um,

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00:09:25,119 --> 00:09:31,149
particles just popping up to, uh, by
pure chance to form a brain somewhere in

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00:09:31,239 --> 00:09:36,339
literal vacuum in outer space somewhere
to exist for just a couple of nanoseconds.

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00:09:37,024 --> 00:09:40,384
But those nanoseconds will be
enough for that brain to come up

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00:09:40,404 --> 00:09:42,794
with an entire universe of its own.

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And there is no way of knowing
if we're living inside one of

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00:09:46,854 --> 00:09:50,664
those imaginary Boltzmann brain
universes or the real thing.

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So, yeah, it's a very weird theory, but I
love it because it's, it's so out there.

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And in there.

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00:10:01,819 --> 00:10:03,229
Yeah, there was no question there.

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00:10:04,449 --> 00:10:05,819
Luke, do you have a question in mind?

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00:10:06,584 --> 00:10:07,514
Well, okay.

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00:10:07,514 --> 00:10:10,374
So, I mean, this, this neuroscience
topic is, is fascinating.

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And so, I mean, I guess that's the
origins of, of, uh, of Bitbox, right?

179
00:10:14,174 --> 00:10:22,544
But, I mean, now, nowadays, uh, Bitbox
is is up there with, you know, it's

180
00:10:22,724 --> 00:10:31,514
frequently cited as one of the easiest
to use and the open source ethos of it.

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00:10:31,514 --> 00:10:34,754
I mean, I think that's
what attracted us to it.

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00:10:34,974 --> 00:10:37,874
It was really just all
by reputation, basically.

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00:10:37,874 --> 00:10:39,524
So how did you build?

184
00:10:39,524 --> 00:10:44,494
What was your philosophy, I
guess, in building this company

185
00:10:44,664 --> 00:10:46,764
and Growing it into that.

186
00:10:46,854 --> 00:10:51,114
Now there's the, the bit box zero
two and, um, I don't know, just

187
00:10:51,114 --> 00:10:55,854
the, the takeover, uh, so to say of
this, uh, hardware wallet market.

188
00:10:56,329 --> 00:10:57,689
uh, first of all, a small tangent.

189
00:10:57,689 --> 00:10:57,949
Yeah.

190
00:10:57,949 --> 00:11:04,319
So, So, it came out of a neuroengineering
neuroscience lab, um, so it, we actually

191
00:11:04,319 --> 00:11:08,995
were a spinoff of the university,
believe it or not, I think it was just

192
00:11:08,995 --> 00:11:13,329
marketing for the university, and you
have to have some kind of what they call

193
00:11:13,329 --> 00:11:18,989
technology transfer from academia to,
to the business, and that was basically

194
00:11:19,039 --> 00:11:24,219
the, um, so I say neuroengineering,
so the lab I was in would build, um.

195
00:11:25,764 --> 00:11:29,574
New machines, new technology,
including ASICs, uh, embedded

196
00:11:29,584 --> 00:11:33,384
stuff, uh, to study neurons, and I
was using that to do experiments.

197
00:11:34,264 --> 00:11:38,324
And so the technology transfer was
taking this, uh, like PCB design,

198
00:11:38,334 --> 00:11:42,014
embedded programming stuff, put it into
a company and it completely different.

199
00:11:42,904 --> 00:11:44,884
Somehow that worked, so we got the label.

200
00:11:45,456 --> 00:11:49,645
then, um, besides that, I think
there's probably no relation.

201
00:11:49,766 --> 00:11:56,709
I think with respect to, uh,
this company, yeah, I guess, uh,

202
00:11:57,999 --> 00:12:01,269
I can't come from a small town,
um, you know, modest upbringing,

203
00:12:01,974 --> 00:12:05,994
middle class family and in America.

204
00:12:06,044 --> 00:12:08,064
So I'm living in Switzerland,
but from America originally.

205
00:12:08,064 --> 00:12:11,914
So I guess, uh, yeah, people say it's
dying, but I think there's still some

206
00:12:11,924 --> 00:12:16,634
of this pioneer spirit left, uh, like
independence, uh, things like that.

207
00:12:17,094 --> 00:12:20,334
Um, and so what really attracted me,
one of the big things that attracted me

208
00:12:20,334 --> 00:12:22,524
to Bitcoin was kind of this concept of.

209
00:12:22,904 --> 00:12:26,284
Taking power away from central
agencies and giving it to individuals,

210
00:12:26,284 --> 00:12:31,214
to people, such that they have an
opportunity to improve their lives,

211
00:12:32,571 --> 00:12:33,781
build a better life for themselves.

212
00:12:33,811 --> 00:12:39,531
And I think anytime you take power away
from the people or power to the people,

213
00:12:39,801 --> 00:12:43,421
if it's from centralized agencies or,
you know, whatever it is, you know,

214
00:12:43,441 --> 00:12:46,421
fire, giving that to individuals.

215
00:12:47,093 --> 00:12:50,813
you can, you don't know what the future
holds, but usually it's, uh, a better

216
00:12:50,813 --> 00:12:52,813
life for the whole world, in my opinion.

217
00:12:53,648 --> 00:12:59,898
and so I think Bitcoin, um, has this
capability and I was really interested

218
00:12:59,898 --> 00:13:02,178
in contributing to it in some way.

219
00:13:02,807 --> 00:13:06,347
yeah, I didn't, with my
neuroscience, um, uh, career,

220
00:13:06,347 --> 00:13:07,727
the next step would be academia.

221
00:13:08,032 --> 00:13:09,462
Um, didn't know if I wanted to do that.

222
00:13:09,972 --> 00:13:12,732
Um, didn't think anyone in
Bitcoin would give me a job.

223
00:13:13,252 --> 00:13:18,172
Uh, so yeah, okay, can make a
company, uh, give myself a job.

224
00:13:18,342 --> 00:13:19,502
That's, that's one aspect.

225
00:13:20,012 --> 00:13:24,512
And then particularly to this, um,
like I mentioned before, it took me two

226
00:13:24,512 --> 00:13:26,522
weeks to get comfortable holding coins.

227
00:13:26,562 --> 00:13:27,982
And so I wanted to make
it easy for people.

228
00:13:28,882 --> 00:13:34,332
Uh, and so equip people with the
tools they need, um, empower them to

229
00:13:34,332 --> 00:13:36,952
participate in this, uh, ecosystem.

230
00:13:37,573 --> 00:13:42,463
give them the security they need and
try to make it as easy as possible such

231
00:13:42,463 --> 00:13:46,973
that they can be comfortable as many
people can, uh, if they want, um, jump

232
00:13:46,973 --> 00:13:50,173
in and, um, do something for themselves.

233
00:13:50,672 --> 00:13:53,972
how did you come up with the slick
design of the, of the bitbox?

234
00:13:54,392 --> 00:13:59,162
Because those little touch buttons
that aren't really buttons at

235
00:13:59,162 --> 00:14:01,047
all, you just Touch the thing.

236
00:14:01,057 --> 00:14:02,967
Like, uh, I really like that.

237
00:14:03,367 --> 00:14:05,477
Um, so how do you come up with that?

238
00:14:06,542 --> 00:14:07,412
Yeah, um,

239
00:14:09,712 --> 00:14:11,052
personal philosophy, I guess.

240
00:14:11,112 --> 00:14:12,892
I've always been more of a minimalist.

241
00:14:12,972 --> 00:14:13,902
Type of person.

242
00:14:14,172 --> 00:14:18,862
Um, it's like kind of like a,
a zen minimalist kind of, um,

243
00:14:19,812 --> 00:14:21,582
aesthetic has always attracted me.

244
00:14:22,182 --> 00:14:25,872
And so when I was designing, um, the
original bit box and also the bit

245
00:14:25,872 --> 00:14:30,452
Box O2, uh, one thing we had in mind
was to, um, kind of keep it discreet.

246
00:14:31,317 --> 00:14:33,627
Keep it simple, keep it
really smooth, slick.

247
00:14:34,272 --> 00:14:37,962
and I think people appreciate that,
uh, because, you know, if, if you

248
00:14:37,962 --> 00:14:41,342
have your life savings on one of
these, you don't want people to, hey,

249
00:14:41,772 --> 00:14:42,972
I know what that thing is, you know.

250
00:14:43,552 --> 00:14:47,912
Um, so try to keep it looking kind
of like a USB stick, uh, basically.

251
00:14:48,391 --> 00:14:53,664
and that also means, um, kind of
hiding the user interface, so the touch

252
00:14:53,664 --> 00:14:57,979
buttons, like the Bitbox01 also had,
um, A single touch button with an LED,

253
00:14:58,339 --> 00:15:01,059
but buried beneath the plastic, you
wouldn't see it unless you plugged it in.

254
00:15:01,869 --> 00:15:06,379
Um, the Bitbox02 has the, yeah, call
it invisible touch sensors on the side.

255
00:15:06,869 --> 00:15:09,669
Uh, also the screen, you wouldn't
even notice it has a screen until

256
00:15:09,669 --> 00:15:11,019
you plug it in and it lights up.

257
00:15:11,664 --> 00:15:13,224
and then, of course, we
want it to look pretty.

258
00:15:14,414 --> 00:15:16,164
I can't say how that happened.

259
00:15:17,384 --> 00:15:21,304
It's luck, or if there's some
kind of innate, uh, providence

260
00:15:21,304 --> 00:15:22,304
or, yeah, probably luck.

261
00:15:23,224 --> 00:15:24,304
No, but it's super cool.

262
00:15:24,304 --> 00:15:29,044
And I'm like, yeah, I see all the
other hardware wallet companies,

263
00:15:29,320 --> 00:15:34,320
build these flashy things with, uh,
big screens and color screens and

264
00:15:34,620 --> 00:15:38,730
tons of buttons and stuff, and like,
I just want my, uh, hardware wallet

265
00:15:38,760 --> 00:15:42,770
to be as simple as possible, like
I want it to be the bare minimum, I

266
00:15:42,770 --> 00:15:44,380
don't want it to do anything else.

267
00:15:44,550 --> 00:15:46,550
But then, then sign transactions.

268
00:15:46,620 --> 00:15:47,680
That's, that's all.

269
00:15:48,290 --> 00:15:52,990
Yeah, so, uh, I guess part of
our core philosophy is to make

270
00:15:52,990 --> 00:15:54,210
things as simple as possible.

271
00:15:54,210 --> 00:15:56,820
Again, so, you know, anyone can join.

272
00:15:57,490 --> 00:16:02,210
And, um, you know, it has to do with
the whole UX, um, how you deal with

273
00:16:02,210 --> 00:16:05,030
it, how our app We also try to make
our app really simple and minimal.

274
00:16:05,739 --> 00:16:08,679
besides that, we also think
privacy is extremely important.

275
00:16:09,196 --> 00:16:12,576
and so a lot of things we do
is with privacy in mind also.

276
00:16:13,186 --> 00:16:17,346
And so we don't have any labels of
Bitbox on the hardware wallet itself.

277
00:16:17,973 --> 00:16:22,243
when we ship packages, we don't
mention Bitcoin, um, don't mention

278
00:16:22,253 --> 00:16:23,673
hardware wallet, things like that.

279
00:16:24,213 --> 00:16:26,033
Um, and lots of other examples.

280
00:16:26,695 --> 00:16:31,415
And I guess you don't keep a database
of all of your customers addresses

281
00:16:32,665 --> 00:16:37,145
for a hacker to hack, which allegedly
happened to some other hardware

282
00:16:37,145 --> 00:16:38,645
wallets that we shall not mention.

283
00:16:39,128 --> 00:16:42,748
yeah, you can see our privacy policy
on our website, but basically, um,

284
00:16:43,488 --> 00:16:47,628
yeah, we need to, like, we collect
user information in the shop.

285
00:16:47,848 --> 00:16:50,928
Uh, we need to keep that until your
order gets shipped out and maybe for,

286
00:16:51,208 --> 00:16:54,958
you know, a few weeks after, uh, in
case you have any issues with shipping

287
00:16:54,958 --> 00:16:56,428
or you want to return it or whatever.

288
00:16:56,938 --> 00:16:59,518
Uh, but then we anonymize
everything after about a month.

289
00:17:00,378 --> 00:17:05,278
And, uh, yeah, even we even talked to
the Swiss government and they say, okay,

290
00:17:05,278 --> 00:17:07,698
yeah, you can anonymize your invoices too.

291
00:17:07,698 --> 00:17:08,568
That's, that's okay.

292
00:17:08,568 --> 00:17:09,158
That works.

293
00:17:09,698 --> 00:17:13,058
Um, and so, yeah, we try to
minimize as much as possible.

294
00:17:13,608 --> 00:17:14,788
Yeah, we do have a newsletter.

295
00:17:14,848 --> 00:17:19,118
Um, so we have, uh, but we collect the
minimal amount of information, just your

296
00:17:19,958 --> 00:17:23,638
email address and your, your name can
be whatever you can use anonymous stuff.

297
00:17:24,118 --> 00:17:28,048
Uh, and I would say that,
um, yeah, unfortunately with.

298
00:17:28,403 --> 00:17:31,463
Um, mailing newsletters, you
kind of, kind of have to use

299
00:17:31,463 --> 00:17:32,893
a centralized entity to do it.

300
00:17:33,363 --> 00:17:37,943
Um, and so you, you should just expect
with us or with anyone that if you put

301
00:17:37,943 --> 00:17:40,023
data on a newsletter, it's probably
going to get hacked at some point.

302
00:17:40,693 --> 00:17:42,213
But we try to minimize the exposure.

303
00:17:42,954 --> 00:17:43,634
Good to hear.

304
00:17:43,694 --> 00:17:48,464
So speaking of privacy and things
like that, like, what's your view

305
00:17:48,474 --> 00:17:51,134
on the current state of Bitcoin?

306
00:17:51,314 --> 00:17:55,094
Do you think we're in a healthy
state or not at the moment?

307
00:17:56,693 --> 00:17:59,183
yeah, I, I don't really
think of healthy or not.

308
00:17:59,183 --> 00:18:00,073
I think just early.

309
00:18:00,563 --> 00:18:01,123
I think it's early.

310
00:18:01,553 --> 00:18:03,733
I think there's still going
to be bumps in the road.

311
00:18:04,253 --> 00:18:07,658
Um, There's still going to be bumps
in the road that we don't foresee,

312
00:18:07,848 --> 00:18:10,838
you know, right now some bumps in
the road that people do see is with

313
00:18:11,228 --> 00:18:14,028
government regulation, things like that.

314
00:18:14,338 --> 00:18:18,398
Maybe some use cases for Bitcoin, how
people are using the protocol itself,

315
00:18:19,349 --> 00:18:20,809
putting extra data in it, whatever.

316
00:18:21,739 --> 00:18:26,269
To me, I don't really focus on it too
much because I think the technology

317
00:18:26,269 --> 00:18:29,749
itself is so superior that it's
going to win out in the end anyways.

318
00:18:30,119 --> 00:18:33,059
Of course, you know, it's good that
people do pay attention to this.

319
00:18:33,119 --> 00:18:36,389
They do bring up awareness and
they do fight for the cause

320
00:18:36,769 --> 00:18:37,919
in whatever field they're in.

321
00:18:38,619 --> 00:18:47,469
If it's legal or coders keeping
things legitimate, things like that.

322
00:18:47,809 --> 00:18:50,999
So I'm I'm not too worried about it.

323
00:18:50,999 --> 00:18:56,689
I think in general, um, I would
judge maybe the health of it more

324
00:18:56,689 --> 00:19:00,359
based off of adoption and knowledge.

325
00:19:00,741 --> 00:19:03,171
and I think even there,
we're still pretty early.

326
00:19:03,231 --> 00:19:08,171
So now, compared to 2014, you know,
when almost no one knew about it,

327
00:19:08,781 --> 00:19:11,641
I think a lot of people in the
world have at least heard about it.

328
00:19:12,236 --> 00:19:15,346
Although I think most of the people in
the world still don't understand it.

329
00:19:16,056 --> 00:19:18,616
And so it's baby steps, right?

330
00:19:19,076 --> 00:19:23,016
And I think it's an ongoing educational
thing and I think it takes people a

331
00:19:23,016 --> 00:19:25,116
different amount of time to figure it out.

332
00:19:25,146 --> 00:19:27,126
But I'm pretty confident in the direction.

333
00:19:27,839 --> 00:19:28,599
Yeah, good to hear.

334
00:19:28,629 --> 00:19:35,349
Uh, yeah, there's one thing that there
that I'm, I'm, Myself, I'm conflicted

335
00:19:35,349 --> 00:19:41,139
about, and that is, uh, if I prefer
a pro Bitcoin politician or an anti

336
00:19:41,349 --> 00:19:46,669
Bitcoin politician, because there's,
there's a dilemma there because if, if

337
00:19:46,669 --> 00:19:51,219
you need a politician to allow you to
use Bitcoin, then, then what's the point?

338
00:19:51,379 --> 00:19:53,029
It doesn't really work in that case.

339
00:19:53,059 --> 00:19:57,849
So maybe an anti Bitcoin politician
would even be preferable because it

340
00:19:57,849 --> 00:20:00,369
would push people into best practices.

341
00:20:00,469 --> 00:20:02,669
So do you have any views on that?

342
00:20:04,049 --> 00:20:05,959
No, I think how you state it is

343
00:20:07,969 --> 00:20:08,579
nicely done.

344
00:20:10,129 --> 00:20:12,579
It's a debate I don't
think I have an answer for.

345
00:20:13,619 --> 00:20:18,269
Maybe one thing I could say is
another analogy to my academic career.

346
00:20:18,994 --> 00:20:24,203
is, um, oftentimes you see, like
science is all, some people think

347
00:20:24,203 --> 00:20:27,853
science is like a fix, people know
facts and stuff like that, but it's

348
00:20:27,853 --> 00:20:31,173
not at all, especially in the brain,
people really don't know anything.

349
00:20:31,233 --> 00:20:33,283
They have theories and stuff
like that, but they get proven

350
00:20:33,283 --> 00:20:34,653
wrong every, every decade.

351
00:20:35,383 --> 00:20:38,653
And so oftentimes, not only in
neuroscience, but in any field,

352
00:20:38,683 --> 00:20:42,683
when someone comes with a new
idea that challenges the existing

353
00:20:42,713 --> 00:20:44,818
dogma, There's always pushback.

354
00:20:45,668 --> 00:20:50,628
And usually what happens with scientific
revolutions is actually the pushback

355
00:20:52,768 --> 00:20:58,018
ends after, you know, a generation
or two of scientists retire.

356
00:20:59,218 --> 00:21:01,828
And then the new scientists who
come up have a more open mind,

357
00:21:01,838 --> 00:21:04,108
they read the research, like,
oh, this makes a lot of sense.

358
00:21:04,858 --> 00:21:05,898
Oh, this makes a lot of sense.

359
00:21:05,948 --> 00:21:08,268
And so you get new people
coming, they understand it.

360
00:21:08,658 --> 00:21:11,908
And then within a few generations,
then you have a new scientific theory

361
00:21:12,208 --> 00:21:13,748
that's established and accepted.

362
00:21:14,538 --> 00:21:17,258
And probably it's going to
be the same for, for Bitcoin.

363
00:21:18,258 --> 00:21:21,788
And so I think, yeah, you know, right now
around the world, especially in America,

364
00:21:21,888 --> 00:21:28,888
there's a lot of, um, politicians who are
maybe should be retired, but they're not.

365
00:21:28,888 --> 00:21:33,483
Transcribed And I think, you know,
in a matter of time as, um, new

366
00:21:33,483 --> 00:21:36,653
generations come and they understand
the technology better, they understand

367
00:21:36,653 --> 00:21:39,073
the impacts better, that's probably
how the change is going to happen.

368
00:21:39,753 --> 00:21:43,833
Yeah, they're, they're regarded
rather than retired anyways.

369
00:21:44,153 --> 00:21:49,333
So, uh, yeah, that's, uh, that's your
explanation there that to me, that's

370
00:21:49,363 --> 00:21:55,443
the difference between science and the
science, which is, uh, what most people

371
00:21:55,743 --> 00:21:58,553
think is science, but it really isn't.

372
00:21:58,613 --> 00:22:02,193
If, uh, if you can't question
it, it's not science.

373
00:22:02,223 --> 00:22:06,813
Like nothing is ever, never,
ever, uh, fully established

374
00:22:07,534 --> 00:22:08,134
okay, so go.

375
00:22:08,224 --> 00:22:11,614
Going back to going back back to
the bit box itself a little bit,

376
00:22:11,974 --> 00:22:15,004
um, what is the, uh, uh, the.

377
00:22:15,599 --> 00:22:19,299
Uh, the, the, the privacy, the
privacy aspect is, is great.

378
00:22:19,299 --> 00:22:20,539
I'm glad you touched on that.

379
00:22:20,869 --> 00:22:24,229
Uh, what are the other things
that sort of set Bitbox apart

380
00:22:24,289 --> 00:22:26,169
from the other options out there?

381
00:22:26,169 --> 00:22:28,959
Because there, there are plenty
of hardware waltz to choose from.

382
00:22:28,959 --> 00:22:31,679
Why, why would someone pick the Bitbox?

383
00:22:32,106 --> 00:22:33,046
yeah, thank you for asking.

384
00:22:33,820 --> 00:22:36,450
I guess when it comes to hardware
wallets, there's two main concepts.

385
00:22:36,450 --> 00:22:40,560
One is, um, Security, of
course, another is usability.

386
00:22:40,840 --> 00:22:42,800
I think privacy kind
of fits into security.

387
00:22:43,497 --> 00:22:45,857
and I, in my opinion,
of course, I'm biased.

388
00:22:45,857 --> 00:22:49,037
I think the Bitbox outshines
the competition in both aspects.

389
00:22:49,597 --> 00:22:53,132
Although I would say security
now, um, you probably can't go

390
00:22:53,132 --> 00:22:55,602
wrong with any major hard rule.

391
00:22:56,062 --> 00:23:00,042
Right now, um, they're all, they're
all pretty secure, so it's more kind of

392
00:23:00,082 --> 00:23:04,381
nitpicky in the details, although I think
we have some, more advanced concepts

393
00:23:04,431 --> 00:23:09,811
that kind of, kind of do put us ahead,
such as, um, anti klepto, um, stuff for,

394
00:23:10,711 --> 00:23:15,735
Some really, really tangential security
on how you do signatures, encrypted

395
00:23:15,735 --> 00:23:18,365
RAM, um, yeah, some things like that.

396
00:23:18,665 --> 00:23:21,841
But I think where we really
shine, is in usability.

397
00:23:22,159 --> 00:23:25,579
so one thing we're really proud about
is oftentimes we hear people say, Hey!

398
00:23:26,469 --> 00:23:30,519
The bid box is the hard role that I will
give to my, my partner or my family.

399
00:23:30,840 --> 00:23:34,380
and I, I think, you know, that really
makes me feel, feel nice because

400
00:23:34,380 --> 00:23:36,630
that was kind of the goal, you
know, to get more people involved.

401
00:23:36,630 --> 00:23:39,720
And if bid box is the, the harder
role, the choice that they make

402
00:23:39,725 --> 00:23:43,600
to, uh, get other people involved
that they think should be involved,

403
00:23:43,630 --> 00:23:45,340
uh, yeah, that, that feels good.

404
00:23:45,345 --> 00:23:45,595
And so.

405
00:23:46,390 --> 00:23:52,095
Um, yeah, we have the, the touch sensors,
um, which, uh, allows for, um, you know,

406
00:23:52,095 --> 00:23:56,655
I think, unique, fun experience, but also
functionally allows for faster input.

407
00:23:57,013 --> 00:24:00,093
it's very, very new, very novel, so it
takes a little while to get used to,

408
00:24:00,093 --> 00:24:03,743
but once you're used to it, you know,
a couple of tries, then you'll Um, I

409
00:24:03,753 --> 00:24:05,003
think it's a pretty nice experience.

410
00:24:05,482 --> 00:24:11,022
one thing that we did from the
very beginning was, um, adding a

411
00:24:11,052 --> 00:24:13,422
micro, onboard micro SD card slot.

412
00:24:13,832 --> 00:24:16,942
I think we're still the only
one who does this, uh, in

413
00:24:16,942 --> 00:24:19,362
terms of backups and recovery.

414
00:24:19,952 --> 00:24:23,982
Uh, and so one thing, um, if you're
used to software wallets or hardware

415
00:24:23,982 --> 00:24:27,782
wallets, you, when you make a backup,
when you first create the wallet, You

416
00:24:27,782 --> 00:24:29,162
have to write down this word list.

417
00:24:29,992 --> 00:24:35,411
It's 12 or 24 words called a mnemonic
seed, and we call it mnemonic anxiety,

418
00:24:35,451 --> 00:24:40,101
where, you know, it can take 20
minutes, 30 minutes to do this on a

419
00:24:40,101 --> 00:24:43,591
hard wallet, because then after you
write it down, you have to reenter it to

420
00:24:43,591 --> 00:24:44,791
make sure you didn't make any mistakes.

421
00:24:45,241 --> 00:24:48,905
It's quite stressful because if you make
one typo, you could be locked out of

422
00:24:48,905 --> 00:24:50,805
your funds if you ever try to recover.

423
00:24:51,158 --> 00:24:54,238
and what we do is, uh,
try to eliminate that.

424
00:24:54,288 --> 00:25:00,138
So, uh, we use a onboard microSD card
such that when you set up the wallet,

425
00:25:00,568 --> 00:25:02,758
um, all this stuff happens instantly.

426
00:25:03,081 --> 00:25:05,711
uh, as a backup onto the micro SD card.

427
00:25:05,721 --> 00:25:09,351
So instead of spending 20 to 30 minutes
in a very stressful way, you can just

428
00:25:09,351 --> 00:25:12,881
take, you know, a few instances, uh,
in a stress free way, in a way people

429
00:25:12,891 --> 00:25:14,661
understand also, that's important.

430
00:25:14,931 --> 00:25:18,471
People don't really understand why they're
doing this, uh, where this, what the

431
00:25:18,481 --> 00:25:20,261
meaning is, what I need to do with it.

432
00:25:20,971 --> 00:25:24,117
Uh, and I, I think, um, that,
that's another nice example.

433
00:25:24,427 --> 00:25:26,017
And I, of course, mentioned the app again.

434
00:25:26,107 --> 00:25:29,517
Uh, we do a lot to, you know, keep
it clean, uh, basic and functional.

435
00:25:30,382 --> 00:25:31,582
Yeah, the app is great.

436
00:25:31,622 --> 00:25:36,402
I mean, the whole functionality
of the thing is very slick

437
00:25:36,402 --> 00:25:38,492
and very, very nice to use.

438
00:25:38,995 --> 00:25:43,775
So what's, what's on the, for
lack of a better word, roadmap?

439
00:25:44,315 --> 00:25:46,905
What's in the future for Bitbox?

440
00:25:46,906 --> 00:25:46,921
Bitbox.

441
00:25:47,572 --> 00:25:47,792
yeah.

442
00:25:47,812 --> 00:25:48,282
So.

443
00:25:49,615 --> 00:25:55,365
I always hesitate to to, to give timelines
or deadlines or things like that because

444
00:25:55,485 --> 00:25:57,285
it always takes longer than expected.

445
00:25:57,615 --> 00:26:01,781
But I guess in general, uh, one thing
we're really interested in, yeah,

446
00:26:01,781 --> 00:26:04,211
we're doing a lot of development
both at hardware and software.

447
00:26:04,271 --> 00:26:06,311
One thing we're really
interested in is user feedback.

448
00:26:06,731 --> 00:26:10,211
Uh, and so yeah, just maybe quickly,
first I'd say anyone listening out there.

449
00:26:10,586 --> 00:26:12,306
We used a Bitbox.

450
00:26:12,356 --> 00:26:15,396
If you have any feedback, we're
really, really happy to accept

451
00:26:15,406 --> 00:26:20,066
that feedback, to take it when
we're trying to build new products.

452
00:26:20,526 --> 00:26:23,586
And so, yeah, we're working
on new hardware versions.

453
00:26:24,006 --> 00:26:25,446
The Bitbox02 is not going to go away.

454
00:26:25,576 --> 00:26:28,915
We're planning that to continue, but
we're working on complementary versions.

455
00:26:29,356 --> 00:26:34,346
Hardware wallet versions, too early to
go into details, uh, but then also, uh,

456
00:26:34,806 --> 00:26:39,116
continuously spending a lot of time on
the app itself, trying to make it more

457
00:26:39,116 --> 00:26:43,786
and more user friendly, uh, try to add
in functions that people, uh, request.

458
00:26:44,266 --> 00:26:48,146
Uh, so I think one really nice thing
about the Bitbox, uh, we have a

459
00:26:48,146 --> 00:26:51,526
partnership with another Swiss company
called Pocket, uh, which allows,

460
00:26:51,546 --> 00:26:55,256
um, buying Bitcoin, like dollar cost
averaging, uh, things like that.

461
00:26:55,895 --> 00:26:59,705
Really nice thing is that based in
Switzerland, uh, there's a law where

462
00:26:59,705 --> 00:27:04,295
there's no extra KYC, so they need
to know your bank account, of course,

463
00:27:04,405 --> 00:27:05,615
when you send in money, but that's it.

464
00:27:06,300 --> 00:27:10,470
And there's no extra KYC, and you
can buy a Bitcoin for a thousand

465
00:27:10,510 --> 00:27:15,270
euro, about a thousand francs a
day, uh, without any extra KYC.

466
00:27:15,840 --> 00:27:21,063
And I think, really nice thing is if
you're getting into, um, the Bitcoin

467
00:27:21,063 --> 00:27:22,823
space, you don't know where to start.

468
00:27:23,343 --> 00:27:26,153
Uh, one thing you can do is
just simply buy a Bitbox.

469
00:27:26,893 --> 00:27:30,143
Uh, you don't need any crypto to
begin with, any Bitcoin to begin with.

470
00:27:30,733 --> 00:27:32,203
And, um, just.

471
00:27:32,698 --> 00:27:35,988
Set up your wallet, and then inside
the app itself, we have an integration

472
00:27:35,988 --> 00:27:39,198
with Pocket, where it's like really,
really simple just to get started

473
00:27:39,198 --> 00:27:40,588
and buy some, buy some Bitcoin.

474
00:27:41,218 --> 00:27:43,598
and we're going to
implement, uh, Cell soon.

475
00:27:43,748 --> 00:27:44,298
That's coming.

476
00:27:45,048 --> 00:27:49,076
Um, we've been working on,
um, some Lightning stuff.

477
00:27:49,240 --> 00:27:51,715
still kind of experimental,
but hopefully that will happen.

478
00:27:52,035 --> 00:27:56,200
That will come out sometime later,
working on, yeah, just, you know,

479
00:27:56,550 --> 00:27:58,290
small bug fixes, things like that.

480
00:27:58,410 --> 00:28:02,928
I recently came out with a watch only
wallet, thinking about, um, you know,

481
00:28:03,768 --> 00:28:07,088
easier ways to import, export notes,
uh, you know, a bunch of small things

482
00:28:07,148 --> 00:28:11,668
that, uh, basically, You know, we
try to listen to our users and try

483
00:28:11,668 --> 00:28:15,948
to implement their feedback and then
make a better and better product.

484
00:28:16,760 --> 00:28:17,090
Nice.

485
00:28:17,130 --> 00:28:20,050
And, and yeah, there's a
lot going on in Switzerland.

486
00:28:20,050 --> 00:28:24,700
I was in Switzerland two weeks ago,
uh, in Lugano on the other side.

487
00:28:25,050 --> 00:28:29,610
Uh, so do you have any collaborations
there with, with the Plan B

488
00:28:29,610 --> 00:28:30,900
or, or anything like that?

489
00:28:31,440 --> 00:28:35,170
I'd say no, no close collaborations,
but we, we talk to them all the time.

490
00:28:35,230 --> 00:28:39,560
Um, so we're, we've always been,
um, uh, part of their conferences

491
00:28:39,600 --> 00:28:43,440
that happen in the fall, which are
excellent, excellent conferences.

492
00:28:44,055 --> 00:28:49,354
and yeah, go there, help with,
um, the agenda, give talks, give

493
00:28:49,354 --> 00:28:51,844
workshops, um, sponsor, have a booth.

494
00:28:51,994 --> 00:28:55,564
Um, it's a beautiful,
beautiful, beautiful city.

495
00:28:56,874 --> 00:28:57,884
It's really nice.

496
00:28:58,364 --> 00:28:58,784
Um,

497
00:28:58,809 --> 00:29:03,769
I, like my experience there is
that everything is five star.

498
00:29:03,839 --> 00:29:07,519
It's a five star town in
a five star, uh, country.

499
00:29:07,879 --> 00:29:09,569
And it's a five star conference.

500
00:29:09,569 --> 00:29:11,329
I mean, Lugano Plan B is great.

501
00:29:11,819 --> 00:29:16,009
Uh, yeah, uh, all aspects
of it is just phenomenal.

502
00:29:16,622 --> 00:29:16,772
Yeah.

503
00:29:16,772 --> 00:29:20,402
So in speaking of conferences, uh, we,
we actually, we all met for the first

504
00:29:20,402 --> 00:29:25,142
time on, on Madera, and that's where
we, where, where we first, uh, I guess

505
00:29:25,142 --> 00:29:29,702
we, we heard the, the a, a bit of the
roadmap from the, the bit box side.

506
00:29:29,707 --> 00:29:33,122
And we ended up spending, uh,
uh, some time in the, the line

507
00:29:33,122 --> 00:29:34,442
waiting for the, the plane.

508
00:29:34,532 --> 00:29:34,922
Uh.

509
00:29:35,417 --> 00:29:39,747
Uh, off of, off of Madeira, I think to
our, to our first, uh, layover back home.

510
00:29:39,747 --> 00:29:43,657
But, uh, um, so it's just
great to, to catch up to, uh,

511
00:29:43,717 --> 00:29:45,527
with Bitcoiners in person.

512
00:29:45,777 --> 00:29:48,757
I guess one question is what did
you think of the, uh, the Madeira

513
00:29:48,757 --> 00:29:49,957
conference, Bitcoin Atlantis?

514
00:29:50,540 --> 00:29:51,480
yeah, Madeira was great.

515
00:29:51,680 --> 00:29:56,160
Uh, yeah, I didn't really have
any expectations going in.

516
00:29:56,210 --> 00:29:57,370
It was their first conference.

517
00:29:57,430 --> 00:30:01,755
Um, But it got there a really
beautiful location also, really

518
00:30:01,755 --> 00:30:05,944
amazing location, really fun
conference, uh, in a, in a football

519
00:30:05,944 --> 00:30:10,824
stadium, which is really interesting
and, um, great, great speakers.

520
00:30:10,934 --> 00:30:15,074
They attracted, like, really
nice speakers, not in, in Europe.

521
00:30:15,074 --> 00:30:20,059
Sometimes you don't get all of the, um,
I guess North American speakers to come.

522
00:30:20,439 --> 00:30:23,989
Uh, but they're all there, so a really
nice mix of both, uh, the European

523
00:30:23,989 --> 00:30:25,539
and the North American communities.

524
00:30:26,039 --> 00:30:27,529
Um, really great vibes.

525
00:30:27,959 --> 00:30:30,139
Uh, yeah, quite, quite loved it.

526
00:30:30,959 --> 00:30:35,389
I'm very happy to hear that, and yeah,
we'll see when the next one will be,

527
00:30:35,469 --> 00:30:41,659
uh, But, uh, yeah, it's a great, we have
some great conferences in Europe, uh,

528
00:30:41,789 --> 00:30:47,549
Madeira and, and, uh, Logano and, uh,
Prague and Riga come to mind, uh, the,

529
00:30:47,639 --> 00:30:50,589
all, all, uh, super high signal events.

530
00:30:51,364 --> 00:30:51,894
Exactly.

531
00:30:52,094 --> 00:30:52,244
Yeah.

532
00:30:52,927 --> 00:30:54,067
That's how we want it.

533
00:30:54,832 --> 00:30:58,052
Yeah, we're going to be going to
Prague just around the corner here.

534
00:30:58,052 --> 00:31:00,592
This episode will be
out just after Prague.

535
00:31:00,632 --> 00:31:04,172
But yeah, any anything
special planned there?

536
00:31:04,771 --> 00:31:08,721
yeah, so we'll have a booth, um, yeah,
it'll come out after the conference,

537
00:31:08,761 --> 00:31:11,561
but otherwise I'd invite you to
come, come hang out and meet us.

538
00:31:12,874 --> 00:31:18,694
but I'm actually gonna have a talk on the
main stage, um, about customer support.

539
00:31:18,974 --> 00:31:19,034
Thank you.

540
00:31:20,304 --> 00:31:23,574
And how interesting stories from
customer support and how that

541
00:31:23,954 --> 00:31:25,264
shapes our product development.

542
00:31:26,619 --> 00:31:26,939
Yeah.

543
00:31:26,969 --> 00:31:31,469
Um, well, uh, you can, you're
going to Riga too, right?

544
00:31:32,297 --> 00:31:33,237
very likely, yes.

545
00:31:33,237 --> 00:31:33,627
Obi and

546
00:31:34,232 --> 00:31:34,652
Yeah.

547
00:31:34,742 --> 00:31:39,012
So, so, so well, everything we say
about Prague now, uh, applies to

548
00:31:39,012 --> 00:31:41,152
Riga too, I guess, or most of it.

549
00:31:41,202 --> 00:31:41,432
Yeah.

550
00:31:42,507 --> 00:31:44,117
Riga, very, very likely.

551
00:31:44,167 --> 00:31:48,027
And then also, uh, Lugano,
very, very likely in the fall.

552
00:31:48,502 --> 00:31:53,672
Yeah, our promo code works for Riga
too, by the way, uh, the code Freedom,

553
00:31:53,702 --> 00:31:55,642
and maybe it works for Lugano too.

554
00:31:55,642 --> 00:31:59,802
I haven't spoken to those
yet, but like, we'll see.

555
00:32:00,672 --> 00:32:06,537
Can you give us a little bit of a preview
of your, your, your talk and, uh, Yeah,

556
00:32:06,537 --> 00:32:10,857
maybe a little behind the scenes for those
who don't manage to make it to Prague.

557
00:32:12,062 --> 00:32:17,590
yeah, I mean, it's still in progress, but,
uh, the general concept is, um, you're in

558
00:32:17,590 --> 00:32:22,910
the space for a while, oftentimes you have
trouble seeing the forest for the trees.

559
00:32:24,220 --> 00:32:24,990
Um, so,

560
00:32:25,570 --> 00:32:26,550
For the Merkle trees,

561
00:32:27,390 --> 00:32:35,060
yeah, yeah, or yeah, if you're that
deep, yeah, um, and so, you know,

562
00:32:35,060 --> 00:32:39,160
as oftentimes what comes into us
in support, uh, can surprise us.

563
00:32:39,779 --> 00:32:42,889
like, oh, we had no idea that
this was an issue, that this

564
00:32:42,889 --> 00:32:44,139
was coming, things like that.

565
00:32:44,619 --> 00:32:47,449
And so, maybe go through some
interesting stories there.

566
00:32:47,829 --> 00:32:52,029
Also, um, you know, maybe remove a
little bit of the stigma, because we're

567
00:32:52,029 --> 00:32:55,539
not aware of anyone actually talking
about their own customer support.

568
00:32:55,999 --> 00:33:01,839
Because, you know, people maybe want
to hide, um, supports all, like, bad

569
00:33:01,839 --> 00:33:03,369
things and problems and things like that.

570
00:33:03,369 --> 00:33:06,614
So maybe people want to
kind of it away, don't know.

571
00:33:07,044 --> 00:33:10,284
And so we thought it would be interesting
to kind of put this front and center,

572
00:33:10,354 --> 00:33:14,434
also highlight or emphasize, you know,
like, we really care about support.

573
00:33:15,074 --> 00:33:16,484
We have a really great support team.

574
00:33:16,544 --> 00:33:19,914
They get, like, five star reviews,
like on Trustpilot and so on.

575
00:33:20,834 --> 00:33:21,844
And so we're proud of that.

576
00:33:22,234 --> 00:33:23,334
And, um, yeah.

577
00:33:24,574 --> 00:33:29,344
I guess, uh, kind of, kind of bring,
bring to people's attention that, you

578
00:33:29,344 --> 00:33:34,224
know, customer support's, uh, important,
something we take very seriously, and

579
00:33:34,224 --> 00:33:38,344
it can also, uh, help improve your,
your product design if you use it as a,

580
00:33:38,854 --> 00:33:40,304
uh, part of your product development.

581
00:33:40,943 --> 00:33:41,823
Yeah, sounds great.

582
00:33:41,823 --> 00:33:45,633
And I mean, again, this is another one
of those things that I think, yeah, shows

583
00:33:45,633 --> 00:33:48,323
off why Bitbox is a bit, a bit different.

584
00:33:48,723 --> 00:33:53,823
Now, I've got another, I've got another,
um, sort of angle on this, um, that, that

585
00:33:53,853 --> 00:33:58,448
everything we're talking about, we're,
we're all Europe, And I think the, the

586
00:33:58,638 --> 00:34:02,998
Bitbox, uh, correct me if I'm wrong, but
I think, I think has a, has a bit of a

587
00:34:03,048 --> 00:34:06,518
more European, um, customer base as well.

588
00:34:07,084 --> 00:34:10,354
what do you, what do you think is sort of
the, the difference between kind of the,

589
00:34:10,364 --> 00:34:16,694
the European community and market versus
North America, Asia Pacific, uh, all that?

590
00:34:17,244 --> 00:34:18,354
well, we're trying to figure it out.

591
00:34:19,394 --> 00:34:21,744
So yeah, we're, we're, we're
doing pretty well in Europe.

592
00:34:22,153 --> 00:34:23,503
quite, quite comfortable in Europe.

593
00:34:23,995 --> 00:34:26,775
trying to figure out ways to, you
know, get a little bit awareness

594
00:34:26,815 --> 00:34:30,505
in America, but I think probably
one of the big things is distance.

595
00:34:30,575 --> 00:34:34,055
Um, and so it's always, it's
harder for us to get to America.

596
00:34:34,215 --> 00:34:37,925
It's farther away, costs more
money, budgeting, things like that.

597
00:34:38,580 --> 00:34:43,407
there's a wider, probably a wider,
or a lower signal to noise ratio.

598
00:34:43,407 --> 00:34:47,427
Um, and, Um, then a lot of, uh,
European content, especially

599
00:34:47,427 --> 00:34:48,947
local language, European content.

600
00:34:49,437 --> 00:34:51,797
So it might be harder to break
through that, that noise.

601
00:34:52,857 --> 00:34:56,977
Uh, and I, I think, you know, really
to, to really get moving there probably

602
00:34:57,017 --> 00:35:00,877
needs some feet on the ground in
America, um, to go and, you know,

603
00:35:00,927 --> 00:35:04,687
talk to people and maybe like a little
grassroots campaign, things like that.

604
00:35:05,267 --> 00:35:11,337
Um, I think, you know, from, from
the Bitcoiners I see, um, I think

605
00:35:11,337 --> 00:35:12,627
we're kind of all on the same page.

606
00:35:12,989 --> 00:35:15,589
But then it's a question of
what is the, the broader market.

607
00:35:15,659 --> 00:35:19,059
So we hear some rumors that in America,
you know, maybe there's a bit more

608
00:35:19,119 --> 00:35:21,559
crypto, uh, rather than Bitcoin only.

609
00:35:22,119 --> 00:35:26,009
Uh, I think Europe, uh, especially,
uh, what we're aware of, like the

610
00:35:26,019 --> 00:35:30,139
German speaking regions, um, there's
a, a bit more understanding of, like,

611
00:35:30,169 --> 00:35:34,359
why, uh, Bitcoin is unique, why it can
distinguish itself from other coins.

612
00:35:34,409 --> 00:35:36,809
And I think that spreads
through most of Europe.

613
00:35:37,659 --> 00:35:40,499
Um, and also thanks to the,
these wonderful conferences

614
00:35:40,509 --> 00:35:43,219
that you had mentioned before,
I think this is a big part too.

615
00:35:43,854 --> 00:35:48,995
And, you know, podcasts like, like
you guys also, I think, yeah, some

616
00:35:48,995 --> 00:35:54,623
things in, um, Asia Pacific, yeah, I've
visited, uh, a few times, uh, talked

617
00:35:54,623 --> 00:35:59,683
to some local people there, and from
what I hear, uh, from them is that,

618
00:36:00,168 --> 00:36:03,138
crypto altcoins really kind of a thing.

619
00:36:03,138 --> 00:36:03,268
Yeah.

620
00:36:04,173 --> 00:36:09,813
Uh, have more of a, more of a dominance
over there, and a big reason for that

621
00:36:09,823 --> 00:36:15,513
is, um, uh, from, from what I hear,
from what they tell me is that Bitcoin

622
00:36:15,533 --> 00:36:17,283
doesn't have a marketing department.

623
00:36:18,073 --> 00:36:22,803
There's no marketing budget, whereas
every other altcoin, including Ethereum,

624
00:36:23,293 --> 00:36:25,903
um, they have marketing, uh, budgets.

625
00:36:26,253 --> 00:36:32,173
Uh, and what happens is a lot
of the, the content does get

626
00:36:32,183 --> 00:36:34,453
translated into Asian languages.

627
00:36:34,890 --> 00:36:38,010
thanks to these marketing
budgets, but, uh, with Bitcoin,

628
00:36:38,090 --> 00:36:39,810
um, that kind of fell behind.

629
00:36:39,810 --> 00:36:42,440
There's no one pushing it, no money
there to do that, so it really

630
00:36:42,440 --> 00:36:43,840
has to be individuals doing it.

631
00:36:44,520 --> 00:36:49,850
And because of that, you get, um,
yeah, an oversaturation of information,

632
00:36:50,010 --> 00:36:52,485
uh, leaning more towards altcoins.

633
00:36:53,205 --> 00:36:54,245
it makes sense to me.

634
00:36:54,645 --> 00:36:58,965
Uh, and so again, it's going to be an
education, uh, kind of issue, uh, just

635
00:36:59,105 --> 00:37:00,905
learning experience kind of issue.

636
00:37:01,265 --> 00:37:02,265
People will learn in time.

637
00:37:03,109 --> 00:37:07,992
you know, I think myself included, I
think most people in the space, maybe

638
00:37:07,992 --> 00:37:11,592
not you guys, but most people in the
space, when they first get started, uh,

639
00:37:11,592 --> 00:37:13,622
they are tempted to try to find, oh.

640
00:37:14,007 --> 00:37:14,747
Bitcoin's been around.

641
00:37:14,747 --> 00:37:16,297
What's the next best Bitcoin?

642
00:37:16,327 --> 00:37:19,687
What, what's the, Bitcoin
must be MySpace, right?

643
00:37:20,187 --> 00:37:23,897
And, uh, this new shiny coin
is, uh, Facebook, right?

644
00:37:24,517 --> 00:37:27,027
but you know, it's, it's,
it's not a good analogy.

645
00:37:27,307 --> 00:37:29,417
Um, the better analogy is like, uh,

646
00:37:30,168 --> 00:37:37,028
the wheel, the wheel, or the circular
shape as being the optimal shape

647
00:37:37,038 --> 00:37:38,738
for constructing a wheel with.

648
00:37:39,058 --> 00:37:43,428
Like, there are triangular shapes
and hexagonal wheels, but yeah,

649
00:37:43,488 --> 00:37:45,298
Bitcoin is the circular shape.

650
00:37:45,888 --> 00:37:46,928
Yeah, that's a good one too.

651
00:37:47,608 --> 00:37:50,788
I was thinking like, I think Andres
Antonopoulos was talking about

652
00:37:50,788 --> 00:37:55,808
it, how Bitcoin is more like, like
internet, base layer of internet.

653
00:37:56,188 --> 00:37:58,168
It's a foundational thing.

654
00:37:58,608 --> 00:38:01,718
That base layer hasn't really changed
so much, but things have been built

655
00:38:01,718 --> 00:38:06,628
on top of it to give us this, uh,
Yeah, to allow us to do these, um,

656
00:38:07,228 --> 00:38:08,488
podcasts over the internet right now.

657
00:38:09,148 --> 00:38:13,858
and so, uh, yeah, it'll take people
some time to figure that out.

658
00:38:14,477 --> 00:38:19,507
Yeah, I love that you keep your cool so
much in all of this and just, I just want

659
00:38:19,507 --> 00:38:23,227
to tinker with my little invention here
and like, don't worry about the noise.

660
00:38:23,297 --> 00:38:25,507
It will sort itself out sooner or later.

661
00:38:25,507 --> 00:38:29,487
We're more like on the barricades
here and trying to like, because like,

662
00:38:29,487 --> 00:38:35,402
don't get me started about this, you
know, both in, in And so Asia, both

663
00:38:35,402 --> 00:38:39,602
in Asia and in North America with
the, the shit coiners and the shit

664
00:38:39,622 --> 00:38:43,232
coinery and marketing being the thing.

665
00:38:43,412 --> 00:38:48,332
And it's, it's all, you know, you can't
have a nothing burger without word salad.

666
00:38:48,462 --> 00:38:55,297
Um, that's basically the, uh, All, all
there is, and it annoys me so much, uh,

667
00:38:55,327 --> 00:39:00,817
and it makes me proud to be European
because like, this is a more, a higher

668
00:39:00,817 --> 00:39:05,617
signal to noise ratio continent in, in,
in terms of Bitcoin adoption, we might

669
00:39:05,617 --> 00:39:13,017
not have favorable politicians and the
EU is a, is a bureaucratic cancer that

670
00:39:13,017 --> 00:39:19,062
is, you know, annoying us all, but, uh,
But still, the German community, the

671
00:39:19,062 --> 00:39:23,482
Dutch community, the Swiss community,
the Czech community, it's all great.

672
00:39:24,752 --> 00:39:29,132
So many people and so many high
signal people, it's fantastic.

673
00:39:29,537 --> 00:39:33,657
So I guess you notice it also
in North America and Asia, um,

674
00:39:33,937 --> 00:39:35,287
a lower signal to noise ratio.

675
00:39:36,135 --> 00:39:38,255
Yeah, yeah, absolutely, absolutely I do.

676
00:39:38,255 --> 00:39:41,395
Especially Uh, yeah, I
should name names here.

677
00:39:41,545 --> 00:39:48,165
Uh, . But, uh, but, but that definitely
is because I think in, I mean, in Asia

678
00:39:48,170 --> 00:39:49,935
there's a gambling culture, right?

679
00:39:50,115 --> 00:39:53,345
Uh, and in North America
there's a marketing culture.

680
00:39:53,345 --> 00:39:54,485
Like everything is marketing.

681
00:39:55,045 --> 00:39:55,420
Uh, so.

682
00:39:56,470 --> 00:40:00,470
Uh, and I think here we're
maybe more grounded, uh, maybe

683
00:40:00,470 --> 00:40:01,890
I'm biased here, but yeah.

684
00:40:02,180 --> 00:40:05,810
Luke, what's your, what's your,
uh, general feeling there?

685
00:40:06,066 --> 00:40:10,016
Yeah, I mean, coming from Canada,
I think the Canadian community is a

686
00:40:10,016 --> 00:40:12,356
little different from the American one.

687
00:40:12,651 --> 00:40:13,101
a little.

688
00:40:13,331 --> 00:40:17,261
It's, it's super based, uh,
in the comparison to the U.

689
00:40:17,261 --> 00:40:17,421
S.

690
00:40:17,551 --> 00:40:20,041
Uh, like, Canadian community is
one of the best in the world.

691
00:40:20,216 --> 00:40:20,926
Yeah, totally.

692
00:40:20,926 --> 00:40:24,856
But the thing is, I left Canada before I
got connected with the Bitcoin community.

693
00:40:24,856 --> 00:40:28,546
And so it's really been the the American
one that that I've had exposure to.

694
00:40:28,546 --> 00:40:32,266
And I think it's the same that
That there's, there's just so many,

695
00:40:32,286 --> 00:40:36,296
there's so many things, uh, people
are trying to, to find the, the thing

696
00:40:36,296 --> 00:40:41,916
that's going to hit and, um, see,
see an opportunity to, to make money.

697
00:40:41,916 --> 00:40:46,486
And, uh, yeah, I mean, comparing
it to sort of say that, that one

698
00:40:46,496 --> 00:40:50,126
region of the world has the, the,
the situation better or, or not.

699
00:40:50,156 --> 00:40:51,346
I mean, maybe that's unfair.

700
00:40:51,576 --> 00:40:54,286
There's, there's fantastic
Bitcoiners all over the world.

701
00:40:54,656 --> 00:41:00,126
And I think it's sort of a case where
maybe the local culture influences

702
00:41:00,186 --> 00:41:05,206
the community, the community growth,
and local regulations I think

703
00:41:05,206 --> 00:41:10,156
also play a part certainly, right,
because that if a country is I

704
00:41:10,871 --> 00:41:15,591
Really unfriendly to, to Bitcoin and
really aggressively attacking it.

705
00:41:16,041 --> 00:41:20,641
I mean, I think American Bitcoin culture
is extremely political right now.

706
00:41:20,641 --> 00:41:25,411
They're, they're really invested in,
in their election, uh, coming up here.

707
00:41:25,411 --> 00:41:29,291
And, uh, maybe that noise just
isn't quite so loud, uh, over

708
00:41:29,291 --> 00:41:31,041
here on, on this side of the pond.

709
00:41:31,478 --> 00:41:34,558
no, but this is a, this is a good
discussion, I think, uh, uh, kind

710
00:41:34,558 --> 00:41:39,078
of the, the nature of building
a, a Bitcoin company, right?

711
00:41:39,338 --> 00:41:42,148
Because, I mean, I think, I think one
thing that we've been getting into a

712
00:41:42,148 --> 00:41:45,848
little bit on, on this show is that, is
that maybe the, maybe the Bitcoin protocol

713
00:41:45,848 --> 00:41:47,853
itself be really, really, really cool.

714
00:41:48,103 --> 00:41:49,043
cautious with that.

715
00:41:50,253 --> 00:41:54,353
There's a lot of room to build on
top of Bitcoin and build things that

716
00:41:54,353 --> 00:41:56,453
make the Bitcoin process easier.

717
00:41:56,453 --> 00:42:01,433
And I mean, my experience with using the
Bitbox the first time, I tried to plug it

718
00:42:01,433 --> 00:42:03,803
into basically all of my own workflows.

719
00:42:04,383 --> 00:42:10,513
I'd been using the Sparrow app a lot, just
for my own management, creating different

720
00:42:10,513 --> 00:42:12,943
wallets, multisigs and things like that.

721
00:42:13,548 --> 00:42:16,078
Bitbox worked perfectly
right out of the box.

722
00:42:16,128 --> 00:42:16,768
I loved it.

723
00:42:16,958 --> 00:42:21,336
I tried the app as well, and I
mean, I'm leery personally of kind

724
00:42:21,336 --> 00:42:25,036
of, um, the hardware wallet that
has its own app coming from the,

725
00:42:25,036 --> 00:42:30,016
um, uh, well, the aforementioned,
uh, company that, that got hacked.

726
00:42:30,036 --> 00:42:32,516
They've, they've, they've got
all of their, uh, they send

727
00:42:32,516 --> 00:42:34,386
all your data, uh, back to that

728
00:42:34,721 --> 00:42:36,551
They had it on a ledger, I think.

729
00:42:36,991 --> 00:42:37,801
Yes, exactly.

730
00:42:37,801 --> 00:42:38,621
I have it on a ledger.

731
00:42:38,881 --> 00:42:43,851
Uh, but, but the, uh, the, um,
uh, the Bitbox app, it's, it's

732
00:42:43,861 --> 00:42:45,661
also fully open source, right?

733
00:42:45,661 --> 00:42:50,261
And, and it's, it's, uh, uh, you can know
exactly what's, what's going on with that.

734
00:42:50,261 --> 00:42:51,541
So that put me at ease.

735
00:42:52,041 --> 00:42:56,681
Um, and, and, so, I mean, I really
get the feeling that it's, it's, uh,

736
00:42:57,101 --> 00:43:02,096
um, It's, it's made to be easy to
use, but also have the features and

737
00:43:02,096 --> 00:43:05,546
functionality for the So-called Power
users who really know what they're doing

738
00:43:05,546 --> 00:43:07,016
and wanna do something a specific way.

739
00:43:07,021 --> 00:43:12,386
So was was that part of the, uh, the idea
or like, uh, like, I'm, I'm impressed

740
00:43:12,391 --> 00:43:14,276
by the, the, the flexibility of it.

741
00:43:14,276 --> 00:43:18,296
Like the, the ability that the, the
platform that you, you have to be able to

742
00:43:18,296 --> 00:43:20,936
add the things that people are requesting.

743
00:43:21,631 --> 00:43:25,131
There was, there was some, um,
script functionality I think we were

744
00:43:25,131 --> 00:43:28,861
talking about on, on Madera that
had just been requested by someone

745
00:43:28,861 --> 00:43:29,951
and then it's added like that.

746
00:43:29,981 --> 00:43:30,611
That's impressive.

747
00:43:30,611 --> 00:43:35,241
So yeah, how did, how did that
kind of, uh, uh, get developed in

748
00:43:35,241 --> 00:43:36,941
your, your development philosophy?

749
00:43:37,320 --> 00:43:42,400
yeah, I guess one of the ideas is,
um, yeah, we want to want to be

750
00:43:42,400 --> 00:43:46,425
the place for, I guess, We call
it the Crypto Curious, um, to kind

751
00:43:46,425 --> 00:43:48,505
of, uh, come and be comfortable.

752
00:43:49,335 --> 00:43:52,365
And part of that is, you know,
hiding all these details.

753
00:43:52,425 --> 00:43:54,045
Uh, but they're still there.

754
00:43:54,255 --> 00:43:54,435
Yeah.

755
00:43:54,435 --> 00:43:55,545
We have expert settings.

756
00:43:55,545 --> 00:43:57,555
And so all the expert settings are there.

757
00:43:58,065 --> 00:44:00,405
Coin control can connect your own node.

758
00:44:00,905 --> 00:44:02,615
Um, you're talking about mini script?

759
00:44:02,765 --> 00:44:03,695
Uh, probably.

760
00:44:04,265 --> 00:44:08,435
Uh, and so yeah, we, we have some
engineers who've, um, yeah, contributed

761
00:44:08,440 --> 00:44:10,505
to Bitcoin core and so they kind of.

762
00:44:11,851 --> 00:44:15,251
their weekend hobbies will be to
implement it because they want it.

763
00:44:17,978 --> 00:44:22,268
that's kind of how, how all the,
all these things get stuck in there.

764
00:44:22,368 --> 00:44:23,818
Of course, we do listen to users.

765
00:44:23,818 --> 00:44:27,410
And so, we do want the Bitbox
to be not only like your, your

766
00:44:27,410 --> 00:44:28,860
starter, but it can grow with you.

767
00:44:28,860 --> 00:44:29,790
It can educate you.

768
00:44:29,920 --> 00:44:32,900
We have like in app, in our app
itself, we have in app guide.

769
00:44:33,480 --> 00:44:36,000
contextual guides to kind
of show you about different

770
00:44:36,000 --> 00:44:37,300
functions and teach you things.

771
00:44:37,760 --> 00:44:41,480
Uh, we spend a lot of time with blogs
and our knowledge base to educate people.

772
00:44:42,003 --> 00:44:46,133
and so we're, we're happy to also
kind of, you know, grow, grow

773
00:44:46,133 --> 00:44:49,343
together, grow with you, help
you, help you on your, your path.

774
00:44:49,443 --> 00:44:53,403
And that means, uh, being exposed
to some of these more advanced, uh,

775
00:44:53,973 --> 00:44:57,433
uh, features that, you know, can be,
can be important in different times.

776
00:44:58,448 --> 00:45:00,708
And how does that relate
to also the security?

777
00:45:00,708 --> 00:45:06,028
Because none of these features on
top of that compromise the core

778
00:45:06,028 --> 00:45:08,008
security of the wallet, right?

779
00:45:08,603 --> 00:45:08,873
Yeah.

780
00:45:09,173 --> 00:45:13,873
So, um, when it comes to security,
we try to, we try to implement it.

781
00:45:14,513 --> 00:45:19,713
Uh, under the hood, I would say, and so
I had mentioned this, um, uh, anticlepto,

782
00:45:19,823 --> 00:45:25,106
uh, thing before, um, and so that's really
all under the hood and it's, um, it's

783
00:45:25,106 --> 00:45:30,176
basically, yeah, we also kind of have,
um, yeah, security in depth kind of field,

784
00:45:30,656 --> 00:45:35,696
uh, where part of our philosophy is, um,
try to minimize the amount of trust you

785
00:45:35,696 --> 00:45:42,756
need to be, you need to put into any one
aspect of Of course, if you buy hardware,

786
00:45:42,966 --> 00:45:46,476
there's always gonna be some level of
trust, but, you know, open source, uh,

787
00:45:46,556 --> 00:45:48,266
so we can have some accountability.

788
00:45:48,396 --> 00:45:51,586
So if something does happen, you can
trace it back to where it did happen.

789
00:45:52,204 --> 00:45:56,194
and, uh, you know, community, uh,
we have a bug bounty program, so

790
00:45:56,194 --> 00:45:59,244
people are welcome to go and hack
the code and try to find, uh,

791
00:45:59,294 --> 00:46:01,144
issues, which we very much welcome.

792
00:46:01,807 --> 00:46:06,777
yeah, the anti klepto part is
actually, um, if you don't trust

793
00:46:06,777 --> 00:46:07,987
the hardware wallet itself.

794
00:46:08,264 --> 00:46:14,234
and so, uh, for example, So, uh, when you
do cryptographic signatures, like really,

795
00:46:14,234 --> 00:46:16,604
really important aspect is randomness.

796
00:46:16,954 --> 00:46:17,744
It's called entropy.

797
00:46:17,984 --> 00:46:21,634
Um, and so it's not only when
you first create your wallet,

798
00:46:21,634 --> 00:46:23,304
it's also when you do signatures.

799
00:46:24,274 --> 00:46:28,512
And so, um, there's a way to do it
deterministically that works really well.

800
00:46:28,772 --> 00:46:32,002
Um, but if you don't trust that that's
happening in the hardware wallet,

801
00:46:32,032 --> 00:46:35,762
you can supply external entropy,
external randomness, in addition,

802
00:46:36,222 --> 00:46:39,392
in a really clever way that's
provable that it was actually used.

803
00:46:39,867 --> 00:46:46,177
Um, in the signature, and so,
um, we have the, our app itself,

804
00:46:46,367 --> 00:46:50,597
um, also does some sanity checks
on the hardware wallet itself.

805
00:46:51,097 --> 00:46:55,667
Uh, so in this aspect with respect to
signatures, in another aspect where we

806
00:46:55,667 --> 00:47:00,097
have, um, what we call an attestation key,
which is basically, um, a secret loaded in

807
00:47:00,097 --> 00:47:06,277
the secure element that, um, can detect if
there's a counterfeit device, and so the

808
00:47:06,287 --> 00:47:11,477
app will send a challenge, It should get
the right, um, response back using this,

809
00:47:11,507 --> 00:47:15,757
uh, private key in the secure element, uh,
in order to detect counterfeit devices.

810
00:47:15,757 --> 00:47:17,807
And so, yeah, we do a lot of these things.

811
00:47:17,997 --> 00:47:21,107
Um, if you're a user, you don't
have to worry about all of it.

812
00:47:21,227 --> 00:47:24,977
Just, you know, if a warning
pops up, read it, um, basically.

813
00:47:25,613 --> 00:47:29,693
and then a lot of the, like, the
optional features, the expert features,

814
00:47:29,723 --> 00:47:34,313
I would say those are probably more
related to privacy, uh, than security.

815
00:47:34,923 --> 00:47:39,053
Um, and so coin control, for example,
you can choose which coins to, uh,

816
00:47:39,133 --> 00:47:44,303
spend from so that you don't mix
coins together for, uh, tracking on

817
00:47:44,303 --> 00:47:45,833
chain analysis, things like that.

818
00:47:46,883 --> 00:47:49,253
You can connect your own full
nodes, so you can be confident that

819
00:47:49,903 --> 00:47:54,873
no one else is peeping in on your
transactions, and so on and so on.

820
00:47:55,003 --> 00:47:55,043
I

821
00:47:56,078 --> 00:47:56,618
that's great.

822
00:47:56,688 --> 00:48:00,868
I remember back in the day when, when
paper wallets was sort of still a thing.

823
00:48:01,058 --> 00:48:05,048
I, I don't, I don't hear anyone using
paper wallets anymore, but there

824
00:48:05,048 --> 00:48:09,298
were these websites where you could
create your own, um, paper wallets.

825
00:48:09,318 --> 00:48:14,638
And the thing you did was you went offline
and then just moved your mouse and that

826
00:48:14,698 --> 00:48:17,660
added the entropy, Uh, it's pretty cool.

827
00:48:17,660 --> 00:48:19,690
Uh, yeah.

828
00:48:19,710 --> 00:48:22,850
I wonder if those are ever
coming back as a, as a thing.

829
00:48:24,134 --> 00:48:28,752
don't think so, basically because with a
paper wallet, you think it's on a piece

830
00:48:28,752 --> 00:48:32,852
of paper, so it's offline, but the problem
comes when you want to spend your coins.

831
00:48:34,672 --> 00:48:38,862
So there's, as far as I understand,
there's really no way to manually

832
00:48:39,262 --> 00:48:42,852
sign a transaction because it's so
complicated, so computationally intensive.

833
00:48:43,432 --> 00:48:45,602
Uh, and so you need some
kind of tool to do that.

834
00:48:45,912 --> 00:48:48,382
And so if you have a paper wallet and
you want to spend those coins, you

835
00:48:48,382 --> 00:48:53,182
need to load up your secret into some
type of device in order to spend it.

836
00:48:53,752 --> 00:48:55,002
You need to swipe it.

837
00:48:55,072 --> 00:48:56,342
It's the terminology,

838
00:48:56,432 --> 00:48:57,192
you need to swipe it.

839
00:48:57,192 --> 00:49:00,142
And so if you're using a computer or a
phone, it's going to be on your computer

840
00:49:00,142 --> 00:49:01,922
and phone, uh, after you swipe it.

841
00:49:02,042 --> 00:49:04,262
So, that kind of defeats
the whole purpose.

842
00:49:05,327 --> 00:49:08,707
Of course, you minimize the time it's
exposed, but, you know, malware is

843
00:49:08,707 --> 00:49:11,807
getting smarter and smarter if it
detects it, it's going to take it.

844
00:49:13,197 --> 00:49:16,247
And so you still, you need
a harder wallet to spend it.

845
00:49:16,652 --> 00:49:22,492
I'll, I'll have to see if there I have any
paper wallets left in a drawer somewhere.

846
00:49:23,282 --> 00:49:26,582
Yeah, so the security
discussion is fantastic.

847
00:49:26,582 --> 00:49:31,712
I mean, device security is such
a difficult area these days.

848
00:49:31,732 --> 00:49:35,382
As you say, the adversaries are
getting more and more sophisticated.

849
00:49:35,382 --> 00:49:37,082
And when we're talking
about money, Bitcoin.

850
00:49:37,862 --> 00:49:41,682
Uh, yeah, it's just an incentive
to just take whatever is possible.

851
00:49:41,682 --> 00:49:47,112
So yeah, keeping, keeping the,
uh, so called keys separate from

852
00:49:47,112 --> 00:49:50,472
the, the, um, from the computer.

853
00:49:50,512 --> 00:49:51,832
Very, very important.

854
00:49:52,162 --> 00:49:55,732
And maybe this is sort of a
philosophical question, sort of in

855
00:49:55,732 --> 00:49:58,812
the hardware wallet space or idea.

856
00:49:59,252 --> 00:50:01,132
What do you think of the
term hardware wallet?

857
00:50:01,612 --> 00:50:05,632
Should we be using a different
term, such as signing device or

858
00:50:05,652 --> 00:50:07,262
keychain or something like that?

859
00:50:07,775 --> 00:50:09,705
yeah, semantic question.

860
00:50:10,975 --> 00:50:11,475
Harder wallet.

861
00:50:11,505 --> 00:50:15,725
I know a lot of people are calling it
cold wallet now as opposed to hot wallet,

862
00:50:15,725 --> 00:50:18,045
which I think kind of makes sense.

863
00:50:19,375 --> 00:50:22,445
But yeah, the term wallet itself.

864
00:50:23,390 --> 00:50:28,400
Yeah, it's a misnomer, of course,
um, you know, talking about

865
00:50:28,400 --> 00:50:29,870
customer support questions.

866
00:50:29,930 --> 00:50:34,300
Um, a lot of it comes around
this, the, the term wallet, where

867
00:50:34,300 --> 00:50:37,620
people are saying, oh, they assume
their bitcoins are in the wallet.

868
00:50:38,030 --> 00:50:40,550
You know, we have this
micro SD card for backups.

869
00:50:40,590 --> 00:50:43,050
They think every time they make a
transaction, they need to stick the

870
00:50:43,060 --> 00:50:46,140
micro SD card in in order to backup
the transaction, but you don't.

871
00:50:46,929 --> 00:50:51,584
and they think, yeah, for example, If
they're receiving coins, they need to

872
00:50:51,584 --> 00:50:55,274
keep the hardware wallet plugged in until
the coin, the transaction is confirmed

873
00:50:55,274 --> 00:50:58,974
because otherwise it's not going to get
into the hardware wallet, into their

874
00:50:58,974 --> 00:51:01,874
wallet, and so that's not true also.

875
00:51:02,174 --> 00:51:07,204
So there's all these misconceptions around
it that probably could be solved with a

876
00:51:08,324 --> 00:51:13,854
different name like, yeah, a keychain,
because it's basically a chain of keys

877
00:51:13,854 --> 00:51:15,314
that give you access to the coins.

878
00:51:15,849 --> 00:51:20,279
Whereas the coins themselves are
stored publicly on the blockchain,

879
00:51:20,339 --> 00:51:23,369
and your wallet, if it's a hardware
wallet or software wallet, is

880
00:51:23,369 --> 00:51:25,639
just there to access those coins.

881
00:51:26,109 --> 00:51:29,539
Use the private key, so on your
keychain, and unlock it so you

882
00:51:29,539 --> 00:51:30,549
can send it somewhere else.

883
00:51:31,019 --> 00:51:34,429
So yeah, maybe that would save
our support staff some time.

884
00:51:36,174 --> 00:51:36,474
Yeah.

885
00:51:36,774 --> 00:51:40,434
Speaking of support, like, uh, yeah,
I just remembered where I put all my

886
00:51:40,484 --> 00:51:45,364
paper wallets and they, they were on
the boat that sank, uh, fortunately,

887
00:51:45,604 --> 00:51:51,144
but, but say if you had a paper wallet
and you wanted to swipe it, uh, using

888
00:51:51,144 --> 00:51:53,494
the bit box, how would you go about it?

889
00:51:53,554 --> 00:51:54,854
Would you use Electrum?

890
00:51:54,854 --> 00:51:58,794
Would you use like the, your
app or how would you do that?

891
00:51:58,854 --> 00:51:59,374
Like this is a.

892
00:52:01,009 --> 00:52:05,269
Pretend I'm a customer
support customer here.

893
00:52:06,039 --> 00:52:10,339
Yeah, um, I used to do customer
support, I don't do it anymore.

894
00:52:11,919 --> 00:52:15,290
But, um, the Bitbox app
does not support sweeping.

895
00:52:16,225 --> 00:52:17,635
I'm at the moment, at least.

896
00:52:18,485 --> 00:52:22,185
So you'd have to use some third party app
if it's Electrum or Sparrow or whatever.

897
00:52:22,625 --> 00:52:27,105
Um, and then what we would always
recommend is, uh, once you sweep into

898
00:52:27,105 --> 00:52:32,855
that wallet, always to immediately send
those coins to a hardware wallet because

899
00:52:32,885 --> 00:52:36,220
the The private key you swept is now hot.

900
00:52:36,770 --> 00:52:39,210
Consider it radioactive.

901
00:52:40,106 --> 00:52:42,296
Well, that sounds easy enough.

902
00:52:43,826 --> 00:52:48,436
Is there anything else we haven't
talked about, Douglas or Luke?

903
00:52:48,506 --> 00:52:50,486
Like, is there anything
else you want to bring up?

904
00:52:52,091 --> 00:52:57,701
I think we've covered quite a bit here,
uh, so, uh, yeah, uh, Douglas, where,

905
00:52:57,951 --> 00:53:00,021
where can we direct our listeners to?

906
00:53:00,021 --> 00:53:04,881
I guess to the, to Bitbox, of
course, and, uh, uh, everything

907
00:53:04,881 --> 00:53:08,211
there, but, uh, is there anywhere
else you want to send our listeners?

908
00:53:08,769 --> 00:53:11,839
yeah, so, I mean, if you're
interested in hearing more, um,

909
00:53:11,939 --> 00:53:12,899
we're happy to hear from you.

910
00:53:12,899 --> 00:53:15,199
If you have any feedback, if
you want to read more, you can

911
00:53:15,199 --> 00:53:16,369
come to our website, bitbox.

912
00:53:16,899 --> 00:53:17,519
swiss.

913
00:53:18,001 --> 00:53:20,101
and you can find a bunch of
links to our social media.

914
00:53:20,171 --> 00:53:24,071
So, we're on Twitter, we're
on LinkedIn, Telegram channel.

915
00:53:24,642 --> 00:53:26,242
and we're happy, happy to hear from you.

916
00:53:27,162 --> 00:53:28,802
And of course, use bitbox.

917
00:53:28,802 --> 00:53:32,872
swiss slash freedom or use code
freedom for a 5 percent discount.

918
00:53:33,022 --> 00:53:34,082
Absolutely.

919
00:53:35,132 --> 00:53:39,652
Well, yeah, Douglas, uh, any, any last,
anything else you want, want to mention,

920
00:53:39,652 --> 00:53:41,582
I'll just reiterate that, um, from Knut.

921
00:53:42,093 --> 00:53:44,863
no, I think, um, it's been
fun talking to you guys.

922
00:53:44,883 --> 00:53:48,313
So, really appreciate,
um, You're having me on.

923
00:53:48,423 --> 00:53:50,683
I appreciate the hard
work you guys are doing.

924
00:53:50,703 --> 00:53:56,666
Keep it up and best wishes for everyone's
financial sovereignty, I guess.

925
00:53:57,514 --> 00:53:58,234
Fantastic.

926
00:53:58,254 --> 00:54:03,514
Well, thank you so much for, for joining
us, uh, for making this fantastic

927
00:54:03,514 --> 00:54:08,094
product, uh, yeah, making people's
lives easier in securing their Bitcoin.

928
00:54:08,144 --> 00:54:09,784
So that's fantastic.

929
00:54:09,784 --> 00:54:12,824
So looking forward to seeing you again,
it's after this episode is out, but

930
00:54:12,824 --> 00:54:16,624
looking forward to seeing you and, uh,
Uh, not even really, I guess a couple of

931
00:54:16,624 --> 00:54:18,754
weeks here in, or a week, a week even in

932
00:54:19,144 --> 00:54:19,604
A week.

933
00:54:19,604 --> 00:54:19,984
Yeah.

934
00:54:20,234 --> 00:54:20,864
Fantastic.

935
00:54:21,164 --> 00:54:21,874
time flies.

936
00:54:22,114 --> 00:54:22,654
Time flies.

937
00:54:23,044 --> 00:54:23,994
Or time fries.

938
00:54:24,284 --> 00:54:24,524
Yeah.

939
00:54:24,834 --> 00:54:25,754
Any last words, Knut?

940
00:54:26,874 --> 00:54:27,804
Any last words?

941
00:54:28,004 --> 00:54:28,334
Yes.

942
00:54:28,554 --> 00:54:29,424
Spadoinkle.

943
00:54:30,564 --> 00:54:31,904
This has been the Freedom Footprint Show.

944
00:54:31,914 --> 00:54:32,814
Thanks for listening.