Sept. 15, 2023

Bitcoin Adoption and Resiliency with Tuur Demeester - Freedom Footprint Show 51

Bitcoin Adoption and Resiliency with Tuur Demeester - Freedom Footprint Show 51

In today’s episode, we’re joined by Tuur Demeester, editor-in-chief at Adamant research and longtime Bitcoiner. 
In this in person, interview, recorded at Baltic Honeybadger 2023 we explore a wide range of topics. We discuss the connection between Bi...

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The Bitcoin Infinity Show

In today’s episode, we’re joined by Tuur Demeester, editor-in-chief at Adamant research and longtime Bitcoiner. 

In this in person, interview, recorded at Baltic Honeybadger 2023 we explore a wide range of topics. We discuss the connection between Bitcoin and Austrian economics, we explore trends in Bitcoin adoption, and we explore Bitcoin’s resiliency. We even cover how we can avoid the biggest long-term threat to Bitcoin! 

Connect with Tuur on Twitter: https://twitter.com/TuurDemeester
Check out Tuur's reports at Adamant Research: http://adamantresearch.com/

00:00:00 - Intro - Welcoming Tuur Demeester
00:02:34 - Austrian Economics
00:09:42 - Hyperbitcoinization and Violence
00:16:59 - Freedom of Speech and Property Rights
00:20:08 - Austrian Economics and Bitcoin
00:25:08 - The Bitcoin Scene in Argentina
00:29:13 - Bitcoin Adoption
00:32:00 - Bitcoin Adoption vs Internet Adoption
00:35:12 - Bitcoin Resiliency
00:38:22 - Bitcoin is Backed by Human Action
00:45:18 - The Biggest Threat to Bitcoin
01:01:34 - Wrapping Up - Where to Find Tuur

 

The Freedom Footprint Show is hosted by Knut Svanholm and BTCPseudoFinn. We are concerned about your Freedom Footprint! Join us as we talk to #bitcoin philosophers about how #bitcoin can expand your Freedom Footprint and much more!

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The Freedom Footprint Show is a Bitcoin podcast hosted by Knut Svanholm and Luke de Wolf.

In each episode, we explore everything from deep philosophy to practical tools to emit freedom dioxide to expand your freedom footprint!

Transcript
1 00:00:00,109 --> 00:00:03,589 one number that I've long looked at, like for a very long time is, 2 00:00:03,627 --> 00:00:05,272 just simple internet adoption. 3 00:00:05,302 --> 00:00:09,832 If you look at the percentages I think early 1995, it was 9%, and then it 4 00:00:09,832 --> 00:00:11,762 jumped to 16 percent in the next year. 5 00:00:11,812 --> 00:00:15,242 So to me, that is what I want to see in Bitcoin, where like, we can 6 00:00:15,242 --> 00:00:18,892 really say like, Ooh, this is a moment where we're really going mainstream. 7 00:00:18,902 --> 00:00:20,852 And I think it's coming this cycle. 8 00:00:21,056 --> 00:00:24,666 it doesn't mean we have complete saturation, but it does mean that the. 9 00:00:25,046 --> 00:00:27,006 The S curve starts to accelerate 10 00:00:27,294 --> 00:00:30,084 Welcome back to the Freedom Footprint show, the Bitcoin 11 00:00:30,084 --> 00:00:33,794 philosophy show with Knut Svanholm and me, Luke the Pseudo Finn. 12 00:00:34,168 --> 00:00:38,221 In today's episode, we're joined by Tur Demeester, editor in chief at Adamant 13 00:00:38,231 --> 00:00:39,801 Research and long time Bitcoiner. 14 00:00:40,383 --> 00:00:44,363 In this in person interview recorded at Baltic Honey Badger 2023, we 15 00:00:44,363 --> 00:00:45,973 explore a wide range of topics. 16 00:00:46,093 --> 00:00:48,663 We discuss the connection between Bitcoin and Austrian economics. 17 00:00:49,003 --> 00:00:50,763 We explore trends in Bitcoin adoption. 18 00:00:51,093 --> 00:00:52,863 And we consider Bitcoin's resiliency. 19 00:00:53,230 --> 00:00:56,370 We even cover how we can avoid the biggest long term threat to Bitcoin. 20 00:00:56,520 --> 00:00:57,400 Stay tuned for that. 21 00:00:58,017 --> 00:01:01,237 But before we jump in, a quick reminder that the best way to support the show 22 00:01:01,237 --> 00:01:04,357 is to send us a boost or stream us some sats using a value for value 23 00:01:04,387 --> 00:01:06,157 podcasting app such as Fountain. 24 00:01:06,737 --> 00:01:09,227 If you're listening to this show as a podcast, check it out on Fountain. 25 00:01:09,237 --> 00:01:11,527 You can earn sats from listening and you can support us and 26 00:01:11,537 --> 00:01:12,837 all your other favorite shows. 27 00:01:13,762 --> 00:01:16,812 You can also support us on geyser fund or send sats directly to our 28 00:01:16,812 --> 00:01:19,122 lightning address freedom at getalby. 29 00:01:19,152 --> 00:01:19,532 com. 30 00:01:20,272 --> 00:01:23,092 And if you want to exchange your dirty fiat, you can support us on Patreon. 31 00:01:23,422 --> 00:01:24,832 All our links are in the description. 32 00:01:25,872 --> 00:01:28,152 If you're watching on YouTube, don't forget to like the episode 33 00:01:28,152 --> 00:01:29,352 and subscribe to the channel. 34 00:01:29,662 --> 00:01:31,962 Even if you're listening as a podcast, head over to our YouTube 35 00:01:31,962 --> 00:01:33,332 channel and subscribe to us there. 36 00:01:33,342 --> 00:01:34,442 It would be a big help. 37 00:01:35,152 --> 00:01:38,212 And finally, we want to thank today's sponsors Wasabi Wallet, 38 00:01:38,392 --> 00:01:40,332 Orange Pill App, The Bitcoin Way. 39 00:01:43,307 --> 00:01:44,917 We'll be talking a bit more about them later. 40 00:01:45,867 --> 00:01:50,027 And now, without further ado, here is Thurde Meester on 41 00:01:50,080 --> 00:01:51,010 the Freedom Footprint show. 42 00:01:51,730 --> 00:01:53,020 Welcome to the Freedom Footprint Show. 43 00:01:53,020 --> 00:01:53,080 Yeah. 44 00:01:53,160 --> 00:01:56,230 We've, we've been, uh, eager to talk to you for a long time. 45 00:01:56,230 --> 00:01:56,320 Yeah. 46 00:01:56,320 --> 00:01:58,480 Or like, we've been talking about talking for 47 00:01:58,570 --> 00:01:59,230 quite some time. 48 00:01:59,230 --> 00:01:59,290 Yeah. 49 00:01:59,295 --> 00:02:01,960 And it's so nice when you can finally meet someone in person. 50 00:02:01,965 --> 00:02:02,080 Yeah. 51 00:02:02,170 --> 00:02:02,440 Yeah. 52 00:02:02,500 --> 00:02:05,020 It just, it's so much nicer than to do it over 53 00:02:05,020 --> 00:02:05,410 Zoom. 54 00:02:05,830 --> 00:02:06,010 Yeah. 55 00:02:06,015 --> 00:02:06,340 Yeah. 56 00:02:06,340 --> 00:02:06,341 Yeah. 57 00:02:06,790 --> 00:02:10,930 And, uh, yeah, give us the, the T L D R on tour. 58 00:02:10,930 --> 00:02:11,950 Dester, who are you? 59 00:02:11,950 --> 00:02:14,190 And uh, what is your thing 60 00:02:14,190 --> 00:02:15,090 like, uh, sure. 61 00:02:15,665 --> 00:02:16,125 Yeah. 62 00:02:16,165 --> 00:02:19,545 Um, I mean, I grew up in Belgium. 63 00:02:19,585 --> 00:02:26,665 I, um, kind of was very undecided about what to do after, after high school. 64 00:02:26,665 --> 00:02:28,145 I tried like a million things. 65 00:02:28,145 --> 00:02:30,375 I dropped out of university. 66 00:02:30,375 --> 00:02:31,685 Um, I traveled. 67 00:02:31,685 --> 00:02:34,885 I, I lived in Norway for a year, all kinds of stuff. 68 00:02:34,925 --> 00:02:41,310 Um, eventually found, um, Some Austrian school ideas, like early on, like, uh, 69 00:02:41,310 --> 00:02:45,880 you know, Human Action from Mises and some other books that, and not just 70 00:02:45,880 --> 00:02:47,370 me, like, several friends of mine. 71 00:02:47,800 --> 00:02:48,690 Did you read Human 72 00:02:48,690 --> 00:02:49,000 Action 73 00:02:49,000 --> 00:02:49,830 at an early age? 74 00:02:51,150 --> 00:02:55,080 It was it was, uh, it was Human Action. 75 00:02:55,090 --> 00:02:58,420 We were, I mean, not that young, like, you know, twenty... 76 00:02:58,835 --> 00:03:04,865 Maybe I was 22, 23 or something, um, but yeah, to me, it was very profound to 77 00:03:04,865 --> 00:03:09,305 encounter that stuff, because not only was it economic ideas that made sense, 78 00:03:09,305 --> 00:03:12,635 but like, the first part of human action is just, you know, hardcore philosophy, 79 00:03:12,855 --> 00:03:18,335 and he basically just, you know, wipes the floor with like, relativism, and 80 00:03:18,345 --> 00:03:22,155 a lot of things I had been struggling with, like free will, or like, you 81 00:03:22,155 --> 00:03:26,555 know, the power of the group, or like, all these kind of ideas that are, I 82 00:03:27,000 --> 00:03:30,920 Almost, like, subliminally passed on to you through public schooling, you know. 83 00:03:31,910 --> 00:03:36,650 Mises was very, not only talking about them, but very decisively 84 00:03:36,660 --> 00:03:38,250 debunking a bunch of those things. 85 00:03:38,250 --> 00:03:42,080 And it was such a, it was very emotional, like, for me to, like, 86 00:03:42,090 --> 00:03:43,460 you know, be exposed to that. 87 00:03:43,500 --> 00:03:47,640 And, uh, and so from then on, I really, that became a big part of my life. 88 00:03:47,640 --> 00:03:50,710 Like, you know, economics, Austrian school, philosophy. 89 00:03:50,890 --> 00:03:52,430 Yeah, same thing happened to me. 90 00:03:52,440 --> 00:03:54,370 Like, I, I, I couldn't let go of the book. 91 00:03:54,955 --> 00:04:00,085 People think it's a hard read, but I felt, uh, I think it flows very well. 92 00:04:00,085 --> 00:04:02,745 And I mean, there are long sentences, but. 93 00:04:03,160 --> 00:04:03,690 Come on. 94 00:04:04,060 --> 00:04:07,220 And it's also, it's so quotable, like it's so dense. 95 00:04:07,260 --> 00:04:07,970 I love that. 96 00:04:07,980 --> 00:04:08,820 There's no fluff. 97 00:04:08,860 --> 00:04:09,360 You can just 98 00:04:09,630 --> 00:04:09,660 like... 99 00:04:10,130 --> 00:04:12,620 It's like 1, 800 pages of no fluff. 100 00:04:13,820 --> 00:04:17,110 So that's why I wrote the Praxeology book, to like squeeze those 101 00:04:17,120 --> 00:04:19,560 1, 800 pages into 130 instead. 102 00:04:19,560 --> 00:04:24,960 And like, uh, I don't know if I succeeded or not, but I, I felt there was a... 103 00:04:25,050 --> 00:04:26,620 whole in the market there for a 104 00:04:26,930 --> 00:04:28,260 beginner's level, of course. 105 00:04:28,320 --> 00:04:30,390 And Mises, like, he invents new words. 106 00:04:30,470 --> 00:04:33,450 I mean, clearly he is German in his mother tongue. 107 00:04:33,450 --> 00:04:35,400 I think he only moved to the US when he was 108 00:04:35,530 --> 00:04:35,690 60. 109 00:04:36,210 --> 00:04:39,560 Yeah, and he was friends with Ayn Rand, or became friends over there, 110 00:04:39,560 --> 00:04:41,130 and they have, like, a similar story. 111 00:04:41,130 --> 00:04:42,810 His life story is fascinating. 112 00:04:42,820 --> 00:04:45,010 Yeah, yeah, absolutely. 113 00:04:45,792 --> 00:04:50,212 I mean, that whole rabbit hole is so, to me it felt like reading 114 00:04:50,232 --> 00:04:55,252 something like Newton or something, something very fundamental that was 115 00:04:55,252 --> 00:05:00,372 just missing from the entire school curricula, like, this is like, holy 116 00:05:00,382 --> 00:05:02,232 shit, why haven't we talked about this? 117 00:05:02,232 --> 00:05:08,192 This is as important as mathematics, really, but, and I think it was 118 00:05:08,342 --> 00:05:12,917 Rob Breedlove who said in a, just a casual conversation that Uh, 119 00:05:13,187 --> 00:05:17,007 praxeology is to the subjective what mathematics is to the objective. 120 00:05:17,107 --> 00:05:21,207 And I, of course, I use that in my book because I think it's so, I think 121 00:05:21,217 --> 00:05:23,327 that puts the finger on what it is. 122 00:05:24,507 --> 00:05:26,637 I think Mises would be very happy with that because his brother 123 00:05:26,637 --> 00:05:27,727 was a mathematician, right? 124 00:05:27,727 --> 00:05:32,037 And so to like, to have that validation that people see his, his 125 00:05:32,447 --> 00:05:38,217 thoroughness as a, as being so Solid, that you can actually even compare 126 00:05:38,217 --> 00:05:39,547 it with something like mathematics. 127 00:05:40,207 --> 00:05:44,997 Yeah, and, yeah, because, like, mathematics is a priori, too, in a sense. 128 00:05:45,027 --> 00:05:50,577 It starts from a set of irrefutable axioms, like 1 plus 1 equals 2, 129 00:05:50,907 --> 00:05:53,597 because we define 2 as 1 plus 1. 130 00:05:54,137 --> 00:05:54,347 Yep. 131 00:05:54,397 --> 00:05:56,717 Sort of, and, uh, yeah, this... 132 00:05:56,732 --> 00:06:01,832 Just a priori versus a posteriori or logical deductive 133 00:06:01,832 --> 00:06:05,142 reasoning versus empiricism. 134 00:06:05,402 --> 00:06:10,602 I think that's so much there, like it, for me, it put the finger on why, 135 00:06:11,142 --> 00:06:14,672 like, why science, empirical science. 136 00:06:14,947 --> 00:06:18,387 And empirical science by itself just isn't enough to understand the 137 00:06:18,387 --> 00:06:22,657 world, like you need to understand incentives to understand anything. 138 00:06:22,657 --> 00:06:26,647 Right, and empirical science has a lot of presuppositions that are not 139 00:06:26,917 --> 00:06:28,277 talked about, that are actually a 140 00:06:28,297 --> 00:06:28,887 priori. 141 00:06:29,317 --> 00:06:33,427 Yeah, yeah, and also that it's never precise because the map 142 00:06:33,427 --> 00:06:34,787 can never be the territory. 143 00:06:35,207 --> 00:06:41,107 That's the a priori is precise and that's, that's why it's limited, but it's also 144 00:06:41,107 --> 00:06:44,227 why it's so more rigid, I would say. 145 00:06:44,387 --> 00:06:44,757 Right. 146 00:06:44,887 --> 00:06:45,077 Yeah. 147 00:06:45,327 --> 00:06:46,637 I think there is only one. 148 00:06:48,097 --> 00:06:51,797 It's hard to say if it's, I would have to study it more to decide, like, is 149 00:06:51,797 --> 00:06:53,797 it really a gripe for me with Mises? 150 00:06:54,257 --> 00:06:58,037 It's just that I personally lean more Aristotelian, you know, 151 00:06:58,067 --> 00:07:02,157 which is phenomenology and you're looking at more things from, from 152 00:07:02,157 --> 00:07:04,957 different angles, uh, rather than. 153 00:07:05,062 --> 00:07:09,372 The Kantian framework feels a bit more like, you know, this, this, 154 00:07:10,072 --> 00:07:14,092 this thing is on the board and then you kind of just reason within your 155 00:07:14,122 --> 00:07:15,822 mathematical proof, so to speak. 156 00:07:16,172 --> 00:07:18,852 And I think sometimes you lose aspects of reality. 157 00:07:18,852 --> 00:07:23,172 Like, for example, the, you know, Mises, you know, being so emphatic that, 158 00:07:23,202 --> 00:07:28,392 um, economics needs to be wertfrei, like free from value judgments. 159 00:07:28,892 --> 00:07:29,482 I think he... 160 00:07:30,247 --> 00:07:34,957 Eventually you get stuck, like it gets too limited if you cannot talk about fraud 161 00:07:34,957 --> 00:07:38,847 or theft or, you know, and that's where Rothbard has a bit of a different take. 162 00:07:39,047 --> 00:07:43,767 But like as far as purely aesthetically or just purely as a, 163 00:07:43,817 --> 00:07:48,937 as an experience, I prefer Mises over any of the other, you know, it's, 164 00:07:48,937 --> 00:07:50,577 it's incredible to read, to read 165 00:07:50,577 --> 00:07:50,817 him. 166 00:07:51,077 --> 00:07:54,967 Did you read a Hopper book called, uh, Economic Science and the Austrian 167 00:07:54,967 --> 00:07:55,397 Method? 168 00:07:55,707 --> 00:07:57,327 I, I think I've read. 169 00:07:58,117 --> 00:07:58,757 Parts of it. 170 00:07:58,767 --> 00:08:01,387 Cause at some point, cause he's, this is a method, methodology. 171 00:08:01,527 --> 00:08:03,147 It's a lot about methodology. 172 00:08:03,147 --> 00:08:03,417 Yeah. 173 00:08:03,717 --> 00:08:04,427 I've read parts of it, 174 00:08:05,387 --> 00:08:06,017 I think, a long time ago, 175 00:08:06,047 --> 00:08:06,287 but yeah. 176 00:08:06,287 --> 00:08:07,467 I love that book. 177 00:08:07,987 --> 00:08:08,777 That was also very dense. 178 00:08:09,017 --> 00:08:14,327 It's very much shorter than human action, but yeah, it talks a lot about methodology 179 00:08:14,327 --> 00:08:16,477 and like the differences and how 180 00:08:16,477 --> 00:08:17,437 significant they are. 181 00:08:17,457 --> 00:08:20,077 And does the, uh, go into argumentation ethics there? 182 00:08:20,177 --> 00:08:26,517 Uh, uh, If I remember it, because it touches on it, but argument, 183 00:08:26,787 --> 00:08:30,797 his argumentation, I think it's one of the most profound insights 184 00:08:30,857 --> 00:08:35,107 of the last century and it's never talked about and like, Yeah, 185 00:08:35,107 --> 00:08:37,627 it's, uh, it's very under, underappreciated. 186 00:08:38,227 --> 00:08:38,727 I agree. 187 00:08:38,727 --> 00:08:40,277 It's so powerful. 188 00:08:40,287 --> 00:08:41,077 It's so powerful. 189 00:08:41,117 --> 00:08:41,387 Yeah. 190 00:08:41,627 --> 00:08:45,987 Um, and, and, I mean, who knows in the future, we'll see some, it 191 00:08:45,987 --> 00:08:49,387 would be great to have some debates about how, how it started and 192 00:08:49,387 --> 00:08:55,122 where, where, um, Uh, where, uh, Argumentation Ethics started, because... 193 00:08:56,652 --> 00:09:01,142 I think they were independently kind of uncovered, discovered, uh, both by 194 00:09:01,142 --> 00:09:04,392 Hoppe and then a little bit earlier, Frank van Doorn, but he wrote in 195 00:09:04,402 --> 00:09:09,552 Dutch, and so he had a whole, uh, the, the foundational principle of law, 196 00:09:09,862 --> 00:09:14,562 which he basically makes the argument from argumentation, um, And so they 197 00:09:14,562 --> 00:09:16,692 really complement each other nicely. 198 00:09:16,972 --> 00:09:17,482 But I agree. 199 00:09:17,482 --> 00:09:21,142 It's so, you know, it's so foundational. 200 00:09:21,152 --> 00:09:25,352 Although I think, you know, if you're an Aristotelian, it's more like it's one 201 00:09:25,352 --> 00:09:28,872 proof, but I think you can find multiple proofs to kind of, kind of, you know, be 202 00:09:28,872 --> 00:09:31,002 going at the same framework eventually. 203 00:09:31,272 --> 00:09:31,642 Yeah. 204 00:09:31,752 --> 00:09:32,092 Yeah. 205 00:09:32,092 --> 00:09:39,542 And it's tightly connected to philosophy, as you say, like they're tangent 206 00:09:39,552 --> 00:09:42,162 to one another, the way I see it. 207 00:09:42,575 --> 00:09:42,935 All right. 208 00:09:42,935 --> 00:09:48,532 So, so, if we take the, uh, the deep hopium stuff about Bitcoin and that we 209 00:09:48,532 --> 00:09:53,042 will hyperbitcoinize and it'll take over everything, does that in your mind, does 210 00:09:53,072 --> 00:09:55,592 that remove violence from the equation? 211 00:09:56,072 --> 00:10:00,702 Almost entirely, so that what we have is, left is argumentation 212 00:10:00,702 --> 00:10:04,502 and just conversation and, well, peace, world peace. 213 00:10:04,552 --> 00:10:04,922 Is that 214 00:10:04,932 --> 00:10:05,582 where we're going? 215 00:10:05,622 --> 00:10:08,492 Yeah, I, I, I'm afraid it's not enough. 216 00:10:08,512 --> 00:10:13,742 I, I really am of the camp that like, even under a gold standard, you had 217 00:10:13,742 --> 00:10:18,352 enormously bloody wars and, you know, and, and, uh, a lot of, a lot of issues. 218 00:10:18,352 --> 00:10:20,102 I think that, you know, there's a great. 219 00:10:20,707 --> 00:10:21,967 Opportunity here. 220 00:10:21,977 --> 00:10:23,807 Like that's what I had my talk about today. 221 00:10:23,807 --> 00:10:28,827 This is great opportunity because uh, if you think about the principles 222 00:10:28,837 --> 00:10:32,497 that allow for peace in society, one of those principles, I think 223 00:10:32,497 --> 00:10:36,467 there are four according to Van Den and I follow him, there's four. 224 00:10:36,467 --> 00:10:40,992 One of them is Restriction of access, you know, because if you have open 225 00:10:40,992 --> 00:10:44,882 access, if any kind of, there's no real property rights, right? 226 00:10:44,942 --> 00:10:48,242 If your stuff and mine, it's all fuzzy and that then people live 227 00:10:48,242 --> 00:10:53,252 in this perennial uncertainty, anxiety, anything can be conscious. 228 00:10:54,147 --> 00:10:55,967 The Fiat regime is kind of like that. 229 00:10:56,037 --> 00:10:58,967 Because literally your bank account is just a free for all, you know, 230 00:10:59,047 --> 00:11:02,417 they can take value from it whenever, whenever they want, you know, 231 00:11:02,427 --> 00:11:06,377 banks or governments or whoever's, whoever can add to the money supply. 232 00:11:06,807 --> 00:11:08,527 And so Bitcoin. 233 00:11:09,397 --> 00:11:13,597 And of course, the cypherpunk movement as a whole, and encryption, all that 234 00:11:13,597 --> 00:11:19,087 technology allows you to restrict access, um, restrict the world from 235 00:11:19,087 --> 00:11:23,187 accessing your, what's yours, your property, and so it's a great engine 236 00:11:23,187 --> 00:11:27,637 for peace, you know, and it creates that certainty, so it's a super important 237 00:11:27,637 --> 00:11:33,897 and foundational But I still think we need more than just that to, to really 238 00:11:34,267 --> 00:11:40,267 go towards, um, a society where, yeah, I mean, ideally there is no war, right? 239 00:11:40,267 --> 00:11:41,197 I mean, that's a pretty, pretty. 240 00:11:41,947 --> 00:11:43,247 What would that more be 241 00:11:43,247 --> 00:11:43,757 though? 242 00:11:43,847 --> 00:11:44,307 Yeah. 243 00:11:44,677 --> 00:11:47,687 So, so the other principles. 244 00:11:48,442 --> 00:11:54,292 One of the other two foundational principles, uh, is, is unity, which you 245 00:11:54,292 --> 00:11:59,062 could kind of dismiss because unity is the idea that if, if, uh, you know, you 246 00:11:59,062 --> 00:12:03,102 are sitting there with two, you're both thirsty, there's only one bottle of water. 247 00:12:03,112 --> 00:12:04,522 How do we prevent conflict? 248 00:12:04,852 --> 00:12:07,462 Well, we make sure there's only one person sitting there. 249 00:12:07,502 --> 00:12:09,462 So, so like physically, how do you do that? 250 00:12:09,462 --> 00:12:11,962 How do you create one out of multiple people? 251 00:12:12,392 --> 00:12:17,749 And I do think there is something to be said for Embracing the idea that 252 00:12:17,749 --> 00:12:21,569 you are part of something bigger, like that's why we don't murder other people, 253 00:12:21,579 --> 00:12:25,049 because we feel like we're part of humanity, right, it kind of, it kind of 254 00:12:25,089 --> 00:12:29,399 elevates us, or like, you know, people have certain ethical standards because 255 00:12:29,399 --> 00:12:32,706 they feel like, it's not just for me selfishly, it's just because it is. 256 00:12:32,706 --> 00:12:32,893 It is. 257 00:12:33,134 --> 00:12:37,044 I want to be part of something bigger that, that is, that, that means something. 258 00:12:37,054 --> 00:12:43,794 And so that is like another, that, that sense of, of unity to be, to voluntarily, 259 00:12:43,794 --> 00:12:49,179 which is important, to voluntarily give up a little bit of your Individual 260 00:12:49,179 --> 00:12:54,359 preferences to elevate the greater good, I think is, uh, it's, it sounds very corny, 261 00:12:54,359 --> 00:12:58,459 but I think it's, it's pretty, pretty foundational because in a way, like some 262 00:12:58,459 --> 00:13:04,829 of the goodwill is, some of that goodwill is sometimes what people give up to invest 263 00:13:04,889 --> 00:13:08,279 in understanding Bitcoin, because they feel like, oh, maybe this is something 264 00:13:08,279 --> 00:13:10,809 that can make things better for everyone. 265 00:13:11,369 --> 00:13:14,469 Um, or, or even if it's against my career, I'm still going to have 266 00:13:14,469 --> 00:13:18,269 the intellectual honesty, just, you know, so that's just one, one other. 267 00:13:18,929 --> 00:13:22,469 Example, and then there's a few more, but there they're more higher up. 268 00:13:22,469 --> 00:13:25,709 And it's more to do with like, uh, having a healthy debating culture, 269 00:13:25,709 --> 00:13:27,479 for example, like free speech. 270 00:13:27,479 --> 00:13:31,379 And, and, uh, I think, I don't think Bitcoin guarantees that. 271 00:13:31,384 --> 00:13:35,999 I think Bitcoin can facilitate some of it, but we still need to do the work to Well, 272 00:13:36,089 --> 00:13:38,939 can Bitcoin culture though that then like Yeah. 273 00:13:38,939 --> 00:13:40,049 Is, is Oh yeah. 274 00:13:40,049 --> 00:13:40,050 Yeah. 275 00:13:40,319 --> 00:13:43,769 But it's, but it, but that's something that is alive and that we also need Yeah. 276 00:13:43,799 --> 00:13:44,549 It's like a garden. 277 00:13:44,549 --> 00:13:45,629 You need to maintain it. 278 00:13:45,809 --> 00:13:45,959 Yeah. 279 00:13:45,964 --> 00:13:46,139 Yeah. 280 00:13:46,139 --> 00:13:46,259 You 281 00:13:46,259 --> 00:13:47,389 know, but that's the thing. 282 00:13:48,549 --> 00:13:53,239 For me, it's hard to make the distinction between the protocol, the money, the 283 00:13:53,249 --> 00:14:00,359 culture, like it's all part of the same organism in a way, and it's, I see it 284 00:14:00,359 --> 00:14:05,409 as, as like being just different aspects of the same phenomenon, which is just 285 00:14:05,729 --> 00:14:10,439 Oh, we found a way to communicate value with one another without third parties. 286 00:14:10,609 --> 00:14:15,589 And that's so profound, like that means, that means peace. 287 00:14:15,619 --> 00:14:19,929 Like the way I put it in one of the books was like, when you cannot put a, when you 288 00:14:20,179 --> 00:14:22,119 cannot know how much another person owns. 289 00:14:22,594 --> 00:14:26,574 Which is true for everyone on earth right now, since they might 290 00:14:26,584 --> 00:14:30,834 hold a private key in their heads, and you cannot take it by force. 291 00:14:31,624 --> 00:14:35,104 The best way to enrich yourself is by interacting peacefully 292 00:14:35,104 --> 00:14:36,204 and trading with that person. 293 00:14:36,434 --> 00:14:37,744 And violence, the, the... 294 00:14:38,509 --> 00:14:42,969 The shelling point for violence, if you will, or like the incentive to, to aggress 295 00:14:42,979 --> 00:14:44,759 against another goes down drastically. 296 00:14:45,269 --> 00:14:49,869 But what, what I struggle with is like, how drastically, like, uh, game theory 297 00:14:49,869 --> 00:14:53,599 sort of says that you get half of the Bitcoin if you like torture the guy. 298 00:14:53,869 --> 00:14:58,739 But, uh, but, but still, I think it's, I think it's more than that 299 00:14:58,759 --> 00:15:03,409 because the, the incentives to just be good to one another are. 300 00:15:05,019 --> 00:15:06,419 They get boosted as well. 301 00:15:06,439 --> 00:15:10,449 Like that, that vector is very, very powerful. 302 00:15:11,599 --> 00:15:11,959 Yeah. 303 00:15:11,959 --> 00:15:13,519 I mean, I, I hear you. 304 00:15:13,519 --> 00:15:15,019 I think it's very significant. 305 00:15:15,049 --> 00:15:20,519 Uh, I, where I would hesitate is just, you know, maybe it depends on how long 306 00:15:20,519 --> 00:15:21,829 a timeframe we're talking about here. 307 00:15:22,219 --> 00:15:26,239 For example, when, when the printing press was invented and, and, and, you 308 00:15:26,239 --> 00:15:30,029 know, gradually books became cheaper, like the price of a book went roughly 309 00:15:30,029 --> 00:15:34,914 from, A year's labor, which is in the Middle Ages, to the price of a chicken. 310 00:15:34,924 --> 00:15:38,094 Like that's, that's how much drastically information became 311 00:15:38,094 --> 00:15:39,774 cheaper in that one century. 312 00:15:40,254 --> 00:15:47,074 Um, you know, back then, imagine realizing like, oh my God, information has been 313 00:15:47,084 --> 00:15:49,144 locked up for centuries and centuries. 314 00:15:49,174 --> 00:15:51,074 All of a sudden, it's liberated. 315 00:15:51,344 --> 00:15:54,214 Everyone is going to have access to these incredible ideas. 316 00:15:54,624 --> 00:15:56,484 They can make up their own opinion, you know. 317 00:15:56,904 --> 00:15:58,934 Uh, this is such a force for good. 318 00:16:00,109 --> 00:16:05,019 I would agree with that, but at the same time, over many generations, some of 319 00:16:05,019 --> 00:16:10,239 the appreciation for how valuable it is to have like a plethora of ideas, how 320 00:16:10,239 --> 00:16:13,489 important it is to have freedom of speech, because I think a lot of the enlightenment 321 00:16:13,499 --> 00:16:18,109 thinkers were really trying to Come up with theoretical foundations for why 322 00:16:18,109 --> 00:16:21,599 freedom of speech is important, because they, it was a fact, it was happening, 323 00:16:21,599 --> 00:16:26,049 people were interacting more freely than before, and so they needed new theories 324 00:16:26,059 --> 00:16:30,169 to try and justify that, and so, you know, I think still, the theory, and I think 325 00:16:30,169 --> 00:16:34,929 they You know, you could kind of debate on how successful the Enlightenment was in 326 00:16:34,929 --> 00:16:38,369 really elevating humanity and not throwing the baby away with the, because there 327 00:16:38,369 --> 00:16:42,479 were some good things in the Middle Ages, so, so that's, I think, you know, that's 328 00:16:42,479 --> 00:16:46,608 kind of our job, is to start working on trying to sort of live up to that. 329 00:16:46,959 --> 00:16:51,979 Really, uh, treasure what's great about Bitcoin, help people understand what's 330 00:16:51,979 --> 00:16:57,159 great about Bitcoin so that the ethos of Bitcoin can really spread and people don't 331 00:16:57,159 --> 00:16:59,329 get confused in a couple generations. 332 00:16:59,819 --> 00:17:04,239 There's, there's a section in a Rothbard book called The Ethics of Liberty 333 00:17:04,289 --> 00:17:09,068 about freedom of speech, which changed my mind on it because like he, he, 334 00:17:09,219 --> 00:17:15,059 points out that everyone forgets to ask, like the, there's a word missing. 335 00:17:15,149 --> 00:17:17,279 Are you, are you pro freedom of speech? 336 00:17:17,729 --> 00:17:21,319 Well, the question should be freedom of, the counter question 337 00:17:21,319 --> 00:17:22,769 should be freedom of speech where? 338 00:17:23,349 --> 00:17:27,879 And you realize that it's only in publicly owned spaces that freedom 339 00:17:27,879 --> 00:17:32,139 of speech is important, because he argues that freedom of speech is only 340 00:17:33,099 --> 00:17:37,859 Necessary because property rights have been violated at some point, because 341 00:17:38,109 --> 00:17:43,919 if I own my house, I get to dictate the rules in my house from natural law and 342 00:17:44,279 --> 00:17:46,429 ethics, Austrian ethics, if you will. 343 00:17:46,859 --> 00:17:52,759 Uh, so, so, so he argues that freedom of speech is sort of a facade in the 344 00:17:52,759 --> 00:17:57,724 sense that It needs to be preceded by a violation of property rights. 345 00:17:58,794 --> 00:18:01,264 I find that framework very interesting. 346 00:18:01,404 --> 00:18:03,034 Wow, yeah, I like that a lot. 347 00:18:03,064 --> 00:18:08,634 And you can think about a place like Dubai or even Saudi Arabia as 348 00:18:08,634 --> 00:18:13,814 compared to, you know, a European free speech maximalist place. 349 00:18:15,469 --> 00:18:21,579 And you could argue that, yeah, sure, uh, freedom of speech is suppressed here in 350 00:18:21,579 --> 00:18:27,669 the, uh, in Dubai to a certain extent, but, but the property rights are stronger 351 00:18:28,099 --> 00:18:32,709 and which one is more important because like in, in Sweden, for instance, you 352 00:18:32,709 --> 00:18:36,259 don't have the same level of property rights, but you have freedom of speech, 353 00:18:36,699 --> 00:18:41,859 uh, which leads to people burning the Quran and, uh, there's a big, um, uh, 354 00:18:41,919 --> 00:18:46,069 police escort for the guy burning it and there's a big riot and the media 355 00:18:46,069 --> 00:18:52,719 is there and they're turning this into this big news event and like what what's 356 00:18:52,719 --> 00:18:57,339 more important like property rights or freedom of speech or is is that dichotomy 357 00:18:57,339 --> 00:18:59,569 real or what are your thoughts on that 358 00:18:59,569 --> 00:19:03,239 yeah yeah Yeah, well I think property rights are more foundational. 359 00:19:03,239 --> 00:19:07,599 I think property rights belong to, um, the, the layer of 360 00:19:07,599 --> 00:19:08,999 the restriction of access. 361 00:19:09,099 --> 00:19:11,479 And I think that is, that is just more foundational. 362 00:19:11,849 --> 00:19:17,619 Um, and then that enables, uh, the safety to engage in open debates, to 363 00:19:17,689 --> 00:19:19,339 have all these differences in opinions. 364 00:19:19,339 --> 00:19:23,849 Because if I know that you're going to respect my body, we're, we're, Get 365 00:19:23,849 --> 00:19:25,179 into argumentation ethics, almost. 366 00:19:25,439 --> 00:19:27,989 If I know you're going to respect my bodily integrity, well, 367 00:19:27,989 --> 00:19:29,429 then I feel safe to say things. 368 00:19:29,439 --> 00:19:32,439 If you're sitting in front of me and you're playing with your 369 00:19:32,439 --> 00:19:35,729 knife, and I know you have a history of assault, I'm going to be 370 00:19:35,919 --> 00:19:36,399 more careful. 371 00:19:36,589 --> 00:19:37,739 What's that quote? 372 00:19:37,829 --> 00:19:40,449 It's easier to get what you want with a kind word and a 373 00:19:40,449 --> 00:19:42,219 gun than with just a kind word. 374 00:19:42,809 --> 00:19:43,279 Exactly. 375 00:19:43,689 --> 00:19:44,699 Yeah, no, totally. 376 00:19:45,704 --> 00:19:46,174 Yeah. 377 00:19:46,444 --> 00:19:46,794 So yeah. 378 00:19:46,794 --> 00:19:48,404 And so to me, that, that is also right. 379 00:19:48,404 --> 00:19:52,914 I mean, had, had Rothbard been around during the enlightenment and kind of 380 00:19:52,914 --> 00:19:58,134 like, you know, whip some sense into metaphorically into the philosophy of 381 00:19:58,134 --> 00:20:02,484 the day, maybe there would have been a stronger foundation for, for freedom 382 00:20:02,484 --> 00:20:08,274 of speech or, or just thinking about intellectual expression than we have now. 383 00:20:08,821 --> 00:20:12,001 I think, I think this is a really interesting line here when we, when we 384 00:20:12,001 --> 00:20:15,311 tie it into the Bitcoin of it all, right? 385 00:20:15,661 --> 00:20:20,241 Uh, I, I think the, the line between all we'll talk about here, 386 00:20:20,241 --> 00:20:23,501 the, the argumentation ethics, Austrian economics and all this. 387 00:20:24,466 --> 00:20:28,066 What, so this is the first thing that you brought, brought up basically, like 388 00:20:28,066 --> 00:20:29,746 you found this stuff before mm-hmm. 389 00:20:29,986 --> 00:20:30,316 Bitcoin. 390 00:20:30,316 --> 00:20:30,406 Oh, yeah. 391 00:20:30,586 --> 00:20:30,796 Right. 392 00:20:30,796 --> 00:20:30,916 Oh yeah. 393 00:20:31,156 --> 00:20:34,126 And so, and so how did that influence your journey into Bitcoin 394 00:20:34,126 --> 00:20:37,846 and, and how you, uh, found it and, and how it impacts your life? 395 00:20:38,586 --> 00:20:38,736 Yeah. 396 00:20:38,736 --> 00:20:41,326 So, Austrian economics. 397 00:20:41,326 --> 00:20:43,516 Like we started the Rothbard Institute in Belgium. 398 00:20:43,516 --> 00:20:46,306 We translated some books, organized seminars, things like that. 399 00:20:47,030 --> 00:20:54,100 and, uh, I, I started to look for ways to, to use this somehow. 400 00:20:54,130 --> 00:20:57,670 I mean, I, I, I made a little tiny bit of money translating, 401 00:20:57,670 --> 00:20:58,900 so that, that kind of helps. 402 00:20:58,900 --> 00:20:59,260 Actually. 403 00:20:59,260 --> 00:21:03,160 You might know this book, uh, money Bank Credit and Economic Cycles by De Soto. 404 00:21:03,890 --> 00:21:05,020 Yeah, yeah, I heard about it. 405 00:21:05,020 --> 00:21:05,460 I haven't read it. 406 00:21:05,460 --> 00:21:06,500 I translated that to Dutch. 407 00:21:07,350 --> 00:21:08,010 Oh my God. 408 00:21:08,350 --> 00:21:09,510 What's the title in Dutch? 409 00:21:09,760 --> 00:21:11,630 I spent nine months doing that. 410 00:21:11,680 --> 00:21:11,990 Sorry? 411 00:21:12,040 --> 00:21:12,890 What's the title in Dutch? 412 00:21:12,890 --> 00:21:14,500 Geld, Krediet en Krisis. 413 00:21:14,890 --> 00:21:19,310 Yeah, and it's, it appeared in a very low volume, but it's still out there. 414 00:21:19,350 --> 00:21:22,000 Um, the footnotes are just enormous. 415 00:21:22,080 --> 00:21:22,820 It was really hard. 416 00:21:22,850 --> 00:21:27,330 And actually, Koen Swenkels, another Bitcoiner, helped me translate it. 417 00:21:27,400 --> 00:21:30,390 Um, but so yeah, that was, that was work that I did. 418 00:21:30,780 --> 00:21:31,260 Um. 419 00:21:31,765 --> 00:21:36,685 And then, uh, with the Rothbard Institute, uh, yeah, we just wanted to connect with 420 00:21:36,685 --> 00:21:41,185 other communities in Europe, um, and so I remember, for example, going to the 421 00:21:41,195 --> 00:21:47,485 Libertarian Alliance Conference in London 2009, Sean Gabb organized that, and, 422 00:21:47,485 --> 00:21:55,205 uh, they had, um, um, David Friedman, he spoke about, uh, anonymous e cash and 423 00:21:55,215 --> 00:22:00,275 assassination markets, which is very, I mean, weirdly I just listened to it 424 00:22:00,275 --> 00:22:03,765 as a theoretical thing and then only thought about it much later, but I do 425 00:22:03,765 --> 00:22:08,605 think that, like, had a little bit of a seed for me, and then also, I, I needed 426 00:22:08,605 --> 00:22:12,345 to start some kind of a career because I was involved with little private schools 427 00:22:12,345 --> 00:22:16,485 and I was like, man, If, if I ever want to send my kids to a school like this, 428 00:22:16,490 --> 00:22:17,805 I need to find a way to make money. 429 00:22:17,805 --> 00:22:20,565 Like I, you know, I need to be able to pay for tuition and things like that. 430 00:22:20,565 --> 00:22:20,655 Yeah. 431 00:22:21,315 --> 00:22:23,355 So I was like, all right, how do I make a career? 432 00:22:23,355 --> 00:22:27,075 And I started writing about the markets, 'cause the, the things started rumbling by 433 00:22:27,075 --> 00:22:30,645 2006 seven in, in the, in the US markets. 434 00:22:30,645 --> 00:22:30,646 Mm-hmm. 435 00:22:30,652 --> 00:22:34,575 . And so I started writing about the crisis, the economic crisis. 436 00:22:34,875 --> 00:22:39,015 And uh, eventually, uh, in 2010, a publisher found me and 437 00:22:39,015 --> 00:22:41,235 he is like, Hey, you know, you wanna make your job out of this? 438 00:22:42,370 --> 00:22:46,660 I was doing it for free and he basically offered me an opportunity 439 00:22:46,660 --> 00:22:50,280 to become an author of a A financial and investment newsletter. 440 00:22:50,300 --> 00:22:51,580 So that's what I started doing. 441 00:22:51,580 --> 00:22:52,730 That became my career. 442 00:22:53,060 --> 00:22:59,330 And so then, because I was, you know, I had some history background of banking 443 00:22:59,330 --> 00:23:01,560 and finance and this Austrian stuff. 444 00:23:02,070 --> 00:23:05,900 And so I was really thinking about how to find investments 445 00:23:05,900 --> 00:23:07,720 that will keep you safe during... 446 00:23:08,105 --> 00:23:12,035 A banking crisis or doing a very high inflation because I was worried about the 447 00:23:12,035 --> 00:23:13,745 euro or, you know, scenarios like that. 448 00:23:14,145 --> 00:23:18,415 So I traveled to Latin America to learn more about how people, people 449 00:23:18,565 --> 00:23:20,485 survive inflation in general. 450 00:23:20,505 --> 00:23:24,645 And, um, and so then, you know, in Argentina, I learned about Bitcoin. 451 00:23:25,005 --> 00:23:30,295 Friends of mine were mining Bitcoin in their basement, literally in 2011 and, um. 452 00:23:30,565 --> 00:23:31,375 Uh, I'm trying to think. 453 00:23:31,375 --> 00:23:34,485 There was some other touch points with Bitcoin early on. 454 00:23:34,905 --> 00:23:39,425 Uh, well, I guess, yeah, I was just looking for that gold. 455 00:23:39,725 --> 00:23:43,975 I was into the gold world and investing, uh, investigating 456 00:23:43,985 --> 00:23:46,285 mining companies and so... 457 00:23:46,640 --> 00:23:47,450 It made sense. 458 00:23:47,460 --> 00:23:52,030 I had been, you know, downloading, I don't know, like, self help books 459 00:23:52,070 --> 00:23:55,600 with BitTorrent and movies and stuff like that, and so the idea 460 00:23:55,600 --> 00:23:59,750 of, like, a BitTorrent for money, it kind of made sense, you know, so. 461 00:23:59,960 --> 00:24:01,140 And when was this? 462 00:24:02,110 --> 00:24:04,050 I first learned about Bitcoin in, like, uh... 463 00:24:04,295 --> 00:24:06,295 I don't know, I think April 2011 or something. 464 00:24:06,295 --> 00:24:07,075 Yeah, pretty early. 465 00:24:07,095 --> 00:24:08,635 Yeah, very early actually. 466 00:24:08,635 --> 00:24:11,995 And, and, uh, and I had the time to just research it. 467 00:24:11,995 --> 00:24:17,355 And then by early 2012, I, I went, uh, I, I wrote about it for 468 00:24:17,355 --> 00:24:21,875 my subscribers, uh, and actually recommended it also as an investment. 469 00:24:21,875 --> 00:24:26,645 And then I went to a Bitcoin conference in London in 2012 as well. 470 00:24:26,645 --> 00:24:29,985 And then I started making some connections in the Bitcoin world. 471 00:24:31,680 --> 00:24:34,250 So it clicked easily for you? 472 00:24:34,260 --> 00:24:35,290 Like, it clicked fast? 473 00:24:35,820 --> 00:24:36,590 I was just lucky. 474 00:24:36,620 --> 00:24:39,970 I was so lucky that I had, you know, some of the Austrian background, like, you 475 00:24:39,970 --> 00:24:45,430 know, and that also I ran into, I reached out to Pieter Goyle, core developer who 476 00:24:45,430 --> 00:24:48,930 was living in Leuven at the time, like, he's a Belgian, and I had, like, a long 477 00:24:50,280 --> 00:24:54,040 Skype call with him, which I transcribed into an interview for my readers. 478 00:24:54,580 --> 00:24:58,860 And then, of course, my friends in Argentina, like, they really... 479 00:24:59,470 --> 00:25:03,190 were really into Bitcoin, they really, and they also knew their Austrian 480 00:25:03,190 --> 00:25:07,230 economics, so it just, it just really helped to solidify things, yeah. 481 00:25:07,300 --> 00:25:07,740 So, 482 00:25:08,720 --> 00:25:13,110 uh, Argentina, like, there's a Bitcoin scene there now, I don't know how 483 00:25:13,110 --> 00:25:17,330 big it is, but, but it's still kind of small as far as I understand. 484 00:25:17,910 --> 00:25:20,700 And why do you think that is when it's been around for so long? 485 00:25:20,700 --> 00:25:24,500 Like, why doesn't it take off in a place like that where it's, because 486 00:25:25,450 --> 00:25:29,500 people always tell me that it's easy to, um, uh, orange pill people. 487 00:25:29,625 --> 00:25:31,215 who have lived through hyperbitcoinization. 488 00:25:31,235 --> 00:25:32,515 And I've seen it firsthand. 489 00:25:32,605 --> 00:25:37,415 I mean, uh, so, um, so why do you think that is? 490 00:25:37,415 --> 00:25:38,865 Why, why is the community not 491 00:25:38,915 --> 00:25:39,625 larger? 492 00:25:39,805 --> 00:25:42,555 I think there's two, two things I'm thinking of. 493 00:25:43,375 --> 00:25:46,085 One is just Bitcoin is just incredibly volatile. 494 00:25:46,085 --> 00:25:49,755 And so for a lot of Argentinians, you just, you save in dollars, you save. 495 00:25:49,755 --> 00:25:53,685 And I remember back in the day, the number was like 50 billion in paper 496 00:25:53,685 --> 00:25:55,095 money circulating in Argentina. 497 00:25:55,095 --> 00:25:57,125 I think it's now triple that or more. 498 00:25:57,565 --> 00:25:59,745 And so, you know, if you want to buy a house, you just, you know, 499 00:25:59,765 --> 00:26:01,125 just a suitcase with dollar bills. 500 00:26:01,125 --> 00:26:05,395 Like, so, so in a way, they are on a dollar standard in, in, in many 501 00:26:05,415 --> 00:26:07,535 practical, you know, sense of the word. 502 00:26:07,575 --> 00:26:09,315 And so Bitcoin cycles are so long. 503 00:26:10,165 --> 00:26:13,205 It is, you know, if you don't have a lot of savings, really risky to be 504 00:26:13,205 --> 00:26:17,715 very exposed to it, uh, for, for, you know, more than like a couple months. 505 00:26:18,255 --> 00:26:19,275 So I think that's one reason. 506 00:26:19,275 --> 00:26:23,145 I think the other reason may be that there could actually be more adoption, 507 00:26:23,655 --> 00:26:25,735 but there's not a lot of showing. 508 00:26:26,340 --> 00:26:29,650 You know, like, for example, in Belgium, I talked to some people, and I'm surprised, 509 00:26:29,650 --> 00:26:33,920 it's like, man, there's actually quite a lot of adoption, but people keep quiet, 510 00:26:33,970 --> 00:26:40,350 because they don't want to be seen as being rich, or, you know, and so, the 511 00:26:40,360 --> 00:26:43,160 thing is, especially in countries with high inflation, you just don't want to 512 00:26:43,160 --> 00:26:49,650 become a target, so, I think it could 500 billion worth of value around the world 513 00:26:49,680 --> 00:26:53,185 somewhere, and, um, Yeah, I don't know. 514 00:26:53,235 --> 00:26:56,835 So I don't know if it's necessarily lower than in other countries. 515 00:26:56,855 --> 00:27:01,775 I do think the level of education and level of like, um, tech, you know, if a 516 00:27:01,775 --> 00:27:05,235 country is very tech savvy, you do tend to see more Bitcoin adoption, I think. 517 00:27:05,285 --> 00:27:05,575 Yeah. 518 00:27:06,159 --> 00:27:08,049 So how are you enjoying this episode so far? 519 00:27:08,499 --> 00:27:11,509 Before we dive back in, first a little bit about our sponsors. 520 00:27:12,089 --> 00:27:16,939 First up, WasabiWallet, the privacy by default, open source, non custodial 521 00:27:16,939 --> 00:27:18,959 bitcoin wallet with CoinJoin built in. 522 00:27:19,549 --> 00:27:23,549 It's the easy to use, comprehensive, affordable way to make your coins private. 523 00:27:24,114 --> 00:27:27,094 And the best part is, they've been making huge improvements to the app. 524 00:27:27,444 --> 00:27:30,414 They're really focusing on the user experience, adding advanced 525 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to onboard, educate, and remove barriers to 550 00:28:35,069 --> 00:28:36,679 taking self custody of your bitcoin. 551 00:28:37,239 --> 00:28:41,549 They cover everything from cold wallets to nodes, no KYC bitcoin purchases, 552 00:28:41,599 --> 00:28:44,009 inheritance planning, payments, and more. 553 00:28:44,549 --> 00:28:47,369 Whether you're new to bitcoin or you're an experienced bitcoiner looking to 554 00:28:47,369 --> 00:28:51,219 expand your freedom footprint, or you know someone who this sounds perfect for, 555 00:28:51,609 --> 00:28:53,479 the Bitcoin Away has something for you. 556 00:28:54,169 --> 00:28:57,679 They have a skilled team, well versed in the bitcoin space, and their goal is to 557 00:28:57,679 --> 00:29:01,559 make all the complexities of bitcoin as straightforward as possible for everyone. 558 00:29:02,119 --> 00:29:04,629 And the best part is you can get started with a free 30 559 00:29:04,629 --> 00:29:05,819 minute call with their team. 560 00:29:06,349 --> 00:29:07,859 Go to thebitcoinway. 561 00:29:07,889 --> 00:29:10,109 com slash contact for more info. 562 00:29:10,579 --> 00:29:11,609 Alright back to it. 563 00:29:11,649 --> 00:29:13,349 Don't forget to like, subscribe, and brush your teeth. 564 00:29:13,776 --> 00:29:18,886 We, um, recently Found out a number, uh, talking to Christiana, 565 00:29:18,886 --> 00:29:21,256 the, the founder of the B T C X. 566 00:29:21,256 --> 00:29:23,176 The, the oldest Swedish Exchange. 567 00:29:23,386 --> 00:29:23,566 Yeah. 568 00:29:23,656 --> 00:29:27,166 And he is, had around 300,000 customers over the years. 569 00:29:27,256 --> 00:29:28,306 Is this all Swedish? 570 00:29:28,396 --> 00:29:30,196 Uh, almost all Swedish. 571 00:29:30,201 --> 00:29:30,466 Yeah. 572 00:29:30,466 --> 00:29:30,676 Wow. 573 00:29:30,676 --> 00:29:34,546 So, so, and if you add the other big exchange there and the fact that 574 00:29:34,546 --> 00:29:38,386 people buy from others and accept Bitcoin and buy from, you know, 575 00:29:38,386 --> 00:29:43,986 Kraken or whatever, Coinbase, uh, the, we, we sort of estimated them. 576 00:29:44,166 --> 00:29:49,121 There might be a, um, Half a million people owning Bitcoin in the country, 577 00:29:49,241 --> 00:29:50,881 which is a 10 million population. 578 00:29:50,911 --> 00:29:55,181 Yeah, so it's it's 5 percent of the population Yeah, and then you 579 00:29:55,181 --> 00:30:00,641 realize that All of these people can pay other people in Bitcoin, and 580 00:30:00,651 --> 00:30:07,431 100 percent of the population can receive it within a minute by just 581 00:30:07,431 --> 00:30:08,961 installing something on their phone. 582 00:30:09,321 --> 00:30:12,051 Yeah, and all of a sudden, Bitcoin standard doesn't sound so crazy anymore. 583 00:30:12,071 --> 00:30:12,401 No, 584 00:30:12,451 --> 00:30:16,191 so, so, so, and the way, uh, yeah, my experience, like, traveling to 585 00:30:16,191 --> 00:30:18,821 all these conferences around the world and seeing the communities 586 00:30:18,821 --> 00:30:20,651 and meetups and stuff, it's that... 587 00:30:21,141 --> 00:30:24,841 It's sort of small everywhere, but it's literally everywhere. 588 00:30:25,281 --> 00:30:29,471 And every one horse town in every country, there's a Bitcoiner somewhere. 589 00:30:29,841 --> 00:30:33,511 And like, so I feel this like undercurrent, it's, 590 00:30:33,711 --> 00:30:35,571 it's just waiting to explode. 591 00:30:36,051 --> 00:30:36,561 Uh. 592 00:30:36,866 --> 00:30:39,326 Then again, it has felt that for quite some time. 593 00:30:39,326 --> 00:30:42,196 So like what, what's your view on that? 594 00:30:42,256 --> 00:30:43,426 Like, is is that a 595 00:30:43,486 --> 00:30:44,836 accurate representation? 596 00:30:44,866 --> 00:30:45,466 I think so, yeah. 597 00:30:45,466 --> 00:30:49,216 Do, do you think there is Bitcoiners in like North Korea or the Vatican or both? 598 00:30:50,756 --> 00:30:51,776 Oh, that's, that's 599 00:30:51,776 --> 00:30:52,406 hard to tell. 600 00:30:52,406 --> 00:30:54,446 I mean, the, uh, yeah. 601 00:30:54,566 --> 00:30:57,536 In North Korea, I, yeah, definitely. 602 00:30:57,566 --> 00:30:58,166 I would think so. 603 00:30:58,166 --> 00:30:58,556 Yeah. 604 00:30:58,616 --> 00:31:02,186 Uh, the Vatican is, uh, significantly smaller. 605 00:31:02,186 --> 00:31:02,336 Yeah. 606 00:31:02,336 --> 00:31:02,996 I, many, there's not a 607 00:31:03,001 --> 00:31:03,596 lot of people actually 608 00:31:03,596 --> 00:31:03,956 living there. 609 00:31:03,956 --> 00:31:04,046 Right. 610 00:31:04,046 --> 00:31:06,006 They're, they're quite conservative there, right here really are. 611 00:31:07,316 --> 00:31:08,076 That's the first thing I hear about it. 612 00:31:08,076 --> 00:31:08,856 So, I don't know. 613 00:31:08,926 --> 00:31:10,306 Uh, very 614 00:31:10,306 --> 00:31:13,396 tied up in the fiat system as well, I believe, so, yeah, 615 00:31:13,456 --> 00:31:14,366 their, their own version 616 00:31:14,366 --> 00:31:14,626 of it. 617 00:31:14,636 --> 00:31:18,056 I mean, I mean, in terms of portfolio, they have a lot of art, they have some 618 00:31:18,056 --> 00:31:20,036 gold, like they have real estate, like. 619 00:31:20,196 --> 00:31:25,226 I mean, don't trust verify, it doesn't sound like a, like a mantra that's, 620 00:31:25,506 --> 00:31:27,116 that's compatible with the Vatican. 621 00:31:27,116 --> 00:31:27,536 I don't know, I 622 00:31:27,536 --> 00:31:32,006 don't know, like the Catholic tradition, you know, the, the, the scholastics 623 00:31:32,006 --> 00:31:34,726 like Aquinas, they believe like through, through reason, you could, 624 00:31:34,746 --> 00:31:36,486 you can reason your way, you cannot. 625 00:31:36,651 --> 00:31:40,461 Through reason, know everything about God, but you can at least prove 626 00:31:40,461 --> 00:31:44,391 that he exists and, and, you know, discover parts of his nature so well. 627 00:31:44,391 --> 00:31:46,971 There's a, there's a, you know, I'm not convinced , it doesn't mean 628 00:31:46,971 --> 00:31:50,171 that there's still, you know, but I mean, you know, there, there's at 629 00:31:50,171 --> 00:31:52,691 least, there's at least a, a pathway. 630 00:31:52,696 --> 00:31:53,171 Yeah, yeah. 631 00:31:53,171 --> 00:31:55,151 For, for reason, for sure. 632 00:31:55,241 --> 00:31:56,741 So, but I, I forgot your question. 633 00:31:56,741 --> 00:31:57,221 I'm sorry. 634 00:31:57,491 --> 00:31:59,771 Uh, I don't even know if there was a question in there. 635 00:31:59,856 --> 00:32:00,686 It was, it was, 636 00:32:00,696 --> 00:32:04,086 uh, the, the situation, I guess, on hyperbitcoinization generally, since 637 00:32:04,126 --> 00:32:08,306 we're, we're maybe at some kind of inflection point, maybe in terms of 638 00:32:08,306 --> 00:32:13,346 the number of people who now have, have had or used Bitcoin, it doesn't 639 00:32:13,396 --> 00:32:16,976 take long to, I mean, maybe we're in a bacon number situation, if that makes 640 00:32:16,976 --> 00:32:20,616 sense, like the, the number of people who are, who know a Bitcoiner is almost 641 00:32:20,636 --> 00:32:21,876 getting to all the people, right? 642 00:32:22,166 --> 00:32:23,996 So, so, so what do you think about that 643 00:32:24,116 --> 00:32:24,606 situation? 644 00:32:24,816 --> 00:32:25,116 Yeah. 645 00:32:25,116 --> 00:32:28,896 I mean, one number that I've long looked at, like for a very long time is, 646 00:32:28,996 --> 00:32:31,916 um, is just simple internet adoption. 647 00:32:31,946 --> 00:32:37,526 Like that trend, um, you know, you, you, you also remember in 1995 being 648 00:32:37,526 --> 00:32:43,021 such an important point in time where all of a sudden it went from how do 649 00:32:43,021 --> 00:32:47,581 you do this, what is the internet, to like, okay, here's a box, you 650 00:32:47,901 --> 00:32:51,241 press the button, and we are online. 651 00:32:51,251 --> 00:32:53,241 Like, that was the Windows 95 moment. 652 00:32:53,251 --> 00:32:55,171 Like, all of a sudden it came together. 653 00:32:55,596 --> 00:32:59,746 And, uh, and, and if you look at the percentages, adoption went from 654 00:32:59,746 --> 00:33:03,896 9 percent in 1994, I believe, or maybe it was 1995, and I think early 655 00:33:03,896 --> 00:33:08,176 1995, it was 9%, and then it jumped to 16 percent in the next year. 656 00:33:08,226 --> 00:33:12,486 So to me, that is what I want to see in Bitcoin, where like, we can 657 00:33:12,486 --> 00:33:16,136 really say like, Ooh, this is a moment where we're really going mainstream. 658 00:33:16,146 --> 00:33:18,096 And I think it's coming this cycle. 659 00:33:18,236 --> 00:33:19,226 I really do believe that. 660 00:33:19,376 --> 00:33:23,366 I, it doesn't mean we have complete saturation, but it does mean that the. 661 00:33:23,746 --> 00:33:25,026 The S curve starts to 662 00:33:25,136 --> 00:33:25,706 accelerate. 663 00:33:25,716 --> 00:33:26,366 Yeah, yeah, yeah. 664 00:33:26,716 --> 00:33:33,026 I, I, uh, uh, remember 95 and 96 vividly and what I was doing and like, 665 00:33:33,686 --> 00:33:35,576 seeing the potential of the internet. 666 00:33:35,616 --> 00:33:38,516 Like, uh, guys, have you seen this thing? 667 00:33:38,526 --> 00:33:42,896 Like, and so many people like not getting it or like not seeing that. 668 00:33:43,186 --> 00:33:43,426 Yeah. 669 00:33:43,466 --> 00:33:47,186 And for, for me, that was, that experience when, when I 670 00:33:47,186 --> 00:33:48,636 discovered Bitcoin, it was like. 671 00:33:49,671 --> 00:33:50,451 I see this now. 672 00:33:50,471 --> 00:33:51,891 This is 1995. 673 00:33:52,221 --> 00:33:53,121 I should be in this. 674 00:33:53,281 --> 00:33:54,201 I should be doing this. 675 00:33:54,241 --> 00:33:55,181 I should be acting on it. 676 00:33:55,191 --> 00:33:58,311 Because at the time in 95, I decided to like, not go into 677 00:33:58,351 --> 00:33:58,371 it. 678 00:33:58,431 --> 00:34:00,811 I also felt like I knew a secret, but I didn't know. 679 00:34:00,811 --> 00:34:02,221 I mean, I was maybe a little bit younger. 680 00:34:02,221 --> 00:34:05,821 I was, I think I was like 14 or 15 when 1995 681 00:34:05,831 --> 00:34:06,331 happened. 682 00:34:06,441 --> 00:34:07,301 Yeah, it would be. 683 00:34:07,681 --> 00:34:08,001 Yeah. 684 00:34:08,141 --> 00:34:09,781 I think you were a couple of years younger than me. 685 00:34:10,021 --> 00:34:13,641 Well, and also I only had my first own, my own computer when I was 686 00:34:13,641 --> 00:34:15,886 like, 20 years old or something. 687 00:34:15,936 --> 00:34:19,566 So in a way I always felt like my friends were far ahead of me 688 00:34:19,916 --> 00:34:21,086 because they had that access. 689 00:34:21,126 --> 00:34:24,286 Like Pietro Bello told me he started programming at age 10. 690 00:34:24,826 --> 00:34:25,916 Yeah, so 691 00:34:26,426 --> 00:34:28,486 did I, but I gave it up for a long time. 692 00:34:28,536 --> 00:34:31,806 So like, I had a Commodore 64, if that counts. 693 00:34:31,866 --> 00:34:34,166 Like, I wouldn't, I wouldn't really count that. 694 00:34:34,166 --> 00:34:35,776 But, but it certainly gave me a... 695 00:34:36,646 --> 00:34:41,146 A basic understanding of what a computer is and what it can and cannot do. 696 00:34:41,586 --> 00:34:44,776 And one thing it couldn't do was, you know, keep a secret or, 697 00:34:44,796 --> 00:34:47,446 or make something uncopyable. 698 00:34:47,716 --> 00:34:47,856 Yeah. 699 00:34:47,856 --> 00:34:50,456 So that's, that's the aha moment for me with Bitcoin. 700 00:34:50,476 --> 00:34:51,476 Like, holy shit. 701 00:34:51,596 --> 00:34:51,836 Yeah. 702 00:34:52,296 --> 00:34:53,196 Something that cannot 703 00:34:53,206 --> 00:34:53,806 be copied. 704 00:34:54,106 --> 00:34:55,946 That was, that was my big... 705 00:34:56,766 --> 00:34:57,856 Point of doubt. 706 00:34:57,956 --> 00:35:00,986 When I first learned about it, I was like, wait a minute, how do you 707 00:35:00,986 --> 00:35:02,536 actually create, like, I was suspicious. 708 00:35:02,836 --> 00:35:03,766 How do you actually do this? 709 00:35:04,696 --> 00:35:08,096 So that's where talking to the engineers was like, okay, like there 710 00:35:08,096 --> 00:35:09,816 is actually, they thought about this. 711 00:35:12,516 --> 00:35:18,186 So for me, the, the denial of the Seg two X hard fork was a, a, an important 712 00:35:18,246 --> 00:35:23,346 point because that's when I realized that holy shit, this really, really works. 713 00:35:23,346 --> 00:35:31,346 That like, that's the evidence I needed for, for this to be like full blown 100%. 714 00:35:31,466 --> 00:35:32,396 This is the thing. 715 00:35:32,401 --> 00:35:33,056 Yeah, yeah. 716 00:35:33,061 --> 00:35:34,766 To fight for this is the hill to die 717 00:35:34,766 --> 00:35:34,946 on. 718 00:35:35,366 --> 00:35:40,406 Like, and then that was why I think the year 2015 was so different from 2017. 719 00:35:40,411 --> 00:35:40,736 Yeah. 720 00:35:41,006 --> 00:35:41,486 Because. 721 00:35:41,896 --> 00:35:45,396 The year 2015, there was so much doubt about like, but what if we get an attack? 722 00:35:45,746 --> 00:35:46,486 Are we going to survive? 723 00:35:46,486 --> 00:35:49,234 And then 2017, we're like, man, like, we can do this. 724 00:35:49,234 --> 00:35:49,976 Yeah, we got this. 725 00:35:50,326 --> 00:35:50,636 Yeah, 726 00:35:50,696 --> 00:35:51,016 yeah. 727 00:35:51,686 --> 00:35:52,006 So. 728 00:35:53,186 --> 00:35:55,856 So, have you seen something similar? 729 00:35:56,426 --> 00:36:02,186 Similar in anything else to something similar to the Seg two X, hard fork denial 730 00:36:03,146 --> 00:36:06,656 , like that kind of proof of resilience 731 00:36:06,776 --> 00:36:08,786 in in literally anywhere else in the world? 732 00:36:08,816 --> 00:36:09,296 Yeah. 733 00:36:09,296 --> 00:36:13,501 Uh, Well, I haven't seen it in shitcoins and I don't think you have 734 00:36:13,501 --> 00:36:15,991 either, but, but in, in any, can you... 735 00:36:16,111 --> 00:36:16,951 That's a good question. 736 00:36:17,011 --> 00:36:18,311 Uh, that's a really good question. 737 00:36:19,422 --> 00:36:24,022 I was actually just listening to a podcast about a guy who was a big, big... 738 00:36:24,827 --> 00:36:30,227 LSD dealer in the 70s and he even sold like LSD to Steve Jobs and like, you 739 00:36:30,227 --> 00:36:35,897 know, and he was talking about how they would have 50 gallon jars full 740 00:36:35,917 --> 00:36:39,837 of LSD pills, like just enormous. 741 00:36:40,182 --> 00:36:44,712 Just oceans of this stuff was made and the shelf life was about five years and 742 00:36:44,722 --> 00:36:47,102 he remembered they were talking about it and like thinking like five years 743 00:36:47,102 --> 00:36:52,362 is forever and so their plan was they thought and he said later I believe I 744 00:36:52,732 --> 00:36:57,862 was wrong but they basically thought that using this chemical they could 745 00:36:57,962 --> 00:37:00,222 make everybody become peaceful, right? 746 00:37:00,382 --> 00:37:05,807 That was the hippie idea and that's why there's this story of um, you know, They 747 00:37:05,807 --> 00:37:08,397 were going to lace, um, Nixon's coffee. 748 00:37:08,397 --> 00:37:10,467 Like they were going to slip some LSD in there. 749 00:37:10,467 --> 00:37:12,637 But so he's saying like, that was our plan. 750 00:37:12,637 --> 00:37:15,657 Like we would just kind of, you know, LSD pill the world. 751 00:37:15,657 --> 00:37:17,927 We had so much supply, we could just do this. 752 00:37:18,537 --> 00:37:22,637 And, uh, and then he said, yeah, eventually I discovered that if someone 753 00:37:22,637 --> 00:37:25,117 who's in a certain kind of mindset. 754 00:37:25,302 --> 00:37:30,252 They just won't change, like they will have this experience of near 755 00:37:30,252 --> 00:37:33,462 death or ego death and then they will just kind of still say the same. 756 00:37:33,932 --> 00:37:38,622 Um, but so anyway, I'm just thinking out loud, you know, like is there maybe, 757 00:37:39,572 --> 00:37:44,302 maybe a parallel to where like, you know, that experience that we had was so... 758 00:37:46,297 --> 00:37:49,787 important that we, we think like, Oh, now we're good. 759 00:37:49,787 --> 00:37:50,067 Right. 760 00:37:50,067 --> 00:37:53,597 Whereas like in the seventies, like we created all this LSD, like we're winning. 761 00:37:53,677 --> 00:37:54,767 Like that's what they thought. 762 00:37:55,127 --> 00:37:59,147 And so I'm not saying that there's exact parallels here, but it's like, 763 00:37:59,177 --> 00:38:02,227 it's kind of the avenue where I would, I would want to think about, 764 00:38:02,227 --> 00:38:03,907 like, you know, are we that safe? 765 00:38:03,907 --> 00:38:09,167 And I, I just keep going back to trying to double check all the math, right. 766 00:38:09,167 --> 00:38:11,607 They're really trying to like, which I'm sure we're all doing right. 767 00:38:11,607 --> 00:38:12,947 If you're in Bitcoin, you're like. 768 00:38:13,822 --> 00:38:15,342 Am I having survivor bias? 769 00:38:15,342 --> 00:38:20,222 Like, do I feel like I'm invincible because I survived 10 years, or is this 770 00:38:20,222 --> 00:38:22,882 really as sustainable as I hope it is? 771 00:38:22,942 --> 00:38:23,762 Yeah, yeah. 772 00:38:24,222 --> 00:38:29,330 And that, like, that, LSD parallel, and especially the ego death. 773 00:38:29,400 --> 00:38:30,180 Parallel. 774 00:38:30,630 --> 00:38:37,420 Like the way I I view that is, uh, like since, since all Bitcoin all 775 00:38:37,420 --> 00:38:39,400 owning Bitcoin is, is keeping a secret. 776 00:38:40,130 --> 00:38:44,510 So like the, the first thought I had was, holy shit, if you, if you memorize 777 00:38:44,510 --> 00:38:46,400 your seed phrase, you are your bitcoins. 778 00:38:46,790 --> 00:38:50,270 If, if that seed phrase is nowhere else, but then when you think deeper 779 00:38:50,270 --> 00:38:53,680 about that, like, uh, all seed, all. 780 00:38:55,160 --> 00:39:00,050 Everything that unlocking a Bitcoin is, is like someone keeping a secret. 781 00:39:00,320 --> 00:39:03,650 So even if you have the seed phrase written down, if the attacker doesn't 782 00:39:03,650 --> 00:39:06,600 know what he's looking for, there's no way he knows, like it's just 783 00:39:06,600 --> 00:39:10,900 words or it's just numbers or it's just ones and zeros and whatever. 784 00:39:11,250 --> 00:39:17,480 So, so viewed through that lens, all Bitcoins exist within people's heads. 785 00:39:18,610 --> 00:39:23,510 And also the, all the nodes and all the miners that they're not really the 786 00:39:23,510 --> 00:39:25,750 machines, they're the people who decide. 787 00:39:25,930 --> 00:39:31,840 To take the deliberate action of firing them up and running them, um, because 788 00:39:31,840 --> 00:39:34,000 they require a human being to do that. 789 00:39:34,000 --> 00:39:39,730 They, yeah, they, so it's, it's backed by human action and not energy in that sense. 790 00:39:40,140 --> 00:39:40,230 Yeah. 791 00:39:40,235 --> 00:39:45,300 And, and, and, uh, a computer, a minor, and Luke is laughing because 792 00:39:45,305 --> 00:39:51,820 he's heard this a quadrillion times, but, uh, uh, a minor, uh, all it 793 00:39:51,820 --> 00:39:54,250 does is guess a number and, uh, do. 794 00:39:54,735 --> 00:39:55,585 Mathematics. 795 00:39:56,135 --> 00:40:01,085 So a computer is just a fancy abacus that helps our, it's an extension of our minds. 796 00:40:01,175 --> 00:40:01,795 So it is us. 797 00:40:02,345 --> 00:40:03,555 It's, it's nothing but us. 798 00:40:04,505 --> 00:40:06,475 So, so the entire network is us. 799 00:40:06,525 --> 00:40:10,385 And I, I, this is how I see that it connects people on this, this 800 00:40:10,595 --> 00:40:14,215 profound level, like, because we are the same entity now. 801 00:40:15,005 --> 00:40:16,755 So, so that might be the. 802 00:40:17,090 --> 00:40:20,880 Like, ego death, LSD sort of thing. 803 00:40:21,370 --> 00:40:22,809 Like, do you think there's something to it? 804 00:40:22,810 --> 00:40:22,900 Like, 805 00:40:22,930 --> 00:40:24,630 we're all part of something bigger, right? 806 00:40:24,630 --> 00:40:27,180 I mean, we are kind of, this is a new way to connect. 807 00:40:27,700 --> 00:40:29,010 It's a way that didn't exist. 808 00:40:29,010 --> 00:40:30,360 A more profound way to... 809 00:40:30,670 --> 00:40:31,800 I think that's, I like that. 810 00:40:31,800 --> 00:40:33,320 I think that's very true. 811 00:40:33,790 --> 00:40:34,430 Um... 812 00:40:34,925 --> 00:40:36,025 I like that a lot, yeah. 813 00:40:36,445 --> 00:40:41,205 And also, when you take into consideration the lowered time preference, so we, 814 00:40:41,645 --> 00:40:46,305 you know, to a large extent, value quality over quantity and all this, 815 00:40:46,445 --> 00:40:50,705 and saving and stuff, and we're also all, we all want Bitcoin to succeed, 816 00:40:50,735 --> 00:40:51,975 so we're incentivized to help. 817 00:40:52,055 --> 00:40:53,055 other bitcoiners. 818 00:40:53,095 --> 00:40:53,325 Yeah. 819 00:40:53,475 --> 00:40:58,075 So we're just, and you, I experienced this every day in this space that 820 00:40:58,075 --> 00:40:59,255 people are just awesome to one another. 821 00:40:59,765 --> 00:41:04,305 Like there's, there's no, there's no resistance to, the 822 00:41:04,315 --> 00:41:06,185 resistance is futile in a sense. 823 00:41:06,565 --> 00:41:11,075 Yeah, there's this virtual side of, um, uh, what do you call it? 824 00:41:11,085 --> 00:41:14,215 No, virtual, um, virtuous cycle. 825 00:41:14,435 --> 00:41:14,675 Yeah. 826 00:41:14,715 --> 00:41:15,715 Yeah, exactly. 827 00:41:15,935 --> 00:41:16,135 Yeah. 828 00:41:16,235 --> 00:41:19,795 And, and at the same time, maybe that's where I'm coming from is that I think 829 00:41:19,795 --> 00:41:25,605 that in order to, maintain the, where we're, you know, we're, we're doing 830 00:41:25,665 --> 00:41:28,385 good, but in order to maintain things. 831 00:41:29,245 --> 00:41:33,635 We need that productive paranoia, I think, where you have some vigilance of 832 00:41:33,635 --> 00:41:38,465 like, Hey, you know, you know, things, things are not guaranteed to go great. 833 00:41:38,525 --> 00:41:41,815 Cause then you can get into dogmatism and you can get into 834 00:41:41,815 --> 00:41:43,585 routine and then you get sloppy. 835 00:41:43,905 --> 00:41:44,915 And then what if we start... 836 00:41:45,470 --> 00:41:49,380 Oh, maybe it's not that important to always remember your secrets or, you 837 00:41:49,380 --> 00:41:53,340 know, you know, so and then people start custodying with a centralized 838 00:41:53,380 --> 00:41:56,830 custodian and, you know, so, so the vigilance, I think, is important. 839 00:41:57,110 --> 00:41:57,460 Yeah, 840 00:41:57,490 --> 00:42:03,190 but the way I see it, it's the vigilance that enables the trust between people. 841 00:42:03,230 --> 00:42:06,490 So ironically enough, the don't trust verify attitude of the 842 00:42:06,490 --> 00:42:10,860 hardcore core of this thing is enabling people on the outer layers. 843 00:42:11,025 --> 00:42:12,615 Just to trust one another more. 844 00:42:12,775 --> 00:42:13,755 Yeah, absolutely. 845 00:42:13,815 --> 00:42:15,615 And that's so weird because it's like... 846 00:42:15,955 --> 00:42:16,195 It's 847 00:42:16,195 --> 00:42:17,015 counterintuitive. 848 00:42:17,015 --> 00:42:17,525 Yeah, it is. 849 00:42:18,025 --> 00:42:22,935 Yeah, and I think I touched on a very related topic when today in 850 00:42:22,935 --> 00:42:25,995 my presentation I talked about, um, this is one of the other kind of... 851 00:42:26,060 --> 00:42:30,340 Foundational principles of order is that continuum between, 852 00:42:30,380 --> 00:42:33,630 um, diversity and consensus. 853 00:42:33,660 --> 00:42:38,350 So diversity means you're just, not only do you disagree, but you're entrenched in 854 00:42:38,350 --> 00:42:42,910 your disagreement and you start boycotting the other or you start attacking them. 855 00:42:43,270 --> 00:42:47,880 And then consensus is actually a situation where it doesn't mean you have to agree. 856 00:42:48,320 --> 00:42:53,950 On the topics, but, um, there is a healthy debating culture, like 857 00:42:54,840 --> 00:42:56,180 the Greeks, the ancient Greeks. 858 00:42:56,210 --> 00:42:57,320 We agree to disagree. 859 00:42:57,350 --> 00:42:57,660 Yes. 860 00:42:57,690 --> 00:43:01,230 And so, because that becomes the peaceful situation. 861 00:43:01,260 --> 00:43:02,240 Stalemate is fine. 862 00:43:02,260 --> 00:43:04,700 And we, in Bitcoin, we have to explain this all the time. 863 00:43:04,700 --> 00:43:09,640 People are like, yes, but my Bitcoin improvement proposal, it's important and 864 00:43:09,640 --> 00:43:11,340 it's urgent and we need to do it now. 865 00:43:11,520 --> 00:43:14,970 And then we say, I don't know, maybe not. 866 00:43:15,070 --> 00:43:16,030 Let's just wait. 867 00:43:16,340 --> 00:43:17,760 And then they're like, but, but, but. 868 00:43:17,790 --> 00:43:18,280 And so. 869 00:43:18,680 --> 00:43:22,960 Even though there's this heated debate, there's no violence, there's no coercion. 870 00:43:23,550 --> 00:43:27,570 So it's totally, it's a very important overlooked thing in game theory. 871 00:43:27,570 --> 00:43:31,530 People think like, either you agree or you disagree, but you 872 00:43:31,530 --> 00:43:33,100 can also agree to disagree. 873 00:43:33,450 --> 00:43:36,550 And so it's such an important engine for peace, I think. 874 00:43:36,570 --> 00:43:37,760 It's argumentation ethics. 875 00:43:37,980 --> 00:43:39,080 Agreeing to disagree. 876 00:43:39,680 --> 00:43:40,840 That's the basis of that. 877 00:43:40,910 --> 00:43:41,490 Yeah, I didn't think 878 00:43:41,490 --> 00:43:43,230 of that either. 879 00:43:43,230 --> 00:43:43,730 Exactly. 880 00:43:44,330 --> 00:43:45,690 We just reinvented our invention, 881 00:43:45,900 --> 00:43:45,960 at least. 882 00:43:47,520 --> 00:43:51,580 And by the way, I don't think you ever have actually said the phrase that 883 00:43:51,600 --> 00:43:53,100 Bitcoin is backed by human action. 884 00:43:53,100 --> 00:43:54,220 I don't think you've actually 885 00:43:54,230 --> 00:43:54,290 said that. 886 00:43:54,290 --> 00:43:56,700 I think I've said that in a talk or something. 887 00:43:57,030 --> 00:43:57,270 Not 888 00:43:57,830 --> 00:43:58,680 on the pod, though. 889 00:43:58,680 --> 00:44:00,640 I don't remember you saying that while I was listening. 890 00:44:01,140 --> 00:44:03,360 That's what I was actually smiling about. 891 00:44:03,560 --> 00:44:05,500 I think that's a really good... 892 00:44:05,965 --> 00:44:07,135 Way of framing it, right? 893 00:44:07,135 --> 00:44:07,405 Yep. 894 00:44:07,405 --> 00:44:10,765 That, that you have to have the human actions that, that, that, that trigger 895 00:44:10,765 --> 00:44:12,175 all of the things that make Bitcoin. 896 00:44:12,175 --> 00:44:13,315 I think that's really important. 897 00:44:13,315 --> 00:44:13,435 And 898 00:44:13,555 --> 00:44:16,165 of course, like human action requires energy. 899 00:44:16,255 --> 00:44:18,715 Like we are energy consuming creatures. 900 00:44:18,715 --> 00:44:21,565 So, so in that sense it's backed by energy, but more. 901 00:44:22,015 --> 00:44:25,375 By the energy in our foods, right? 902 00:44:25,385 --> 00:44:28,125 Than the electricity in the miners, in that sense, 903 00:44:28,255 --> 00:44:28,495 you know? 904 00:44:28,515 --> 00:44:32,645 And it's very synergistic, like how, uh, I don't know, like, we live 905 00:44:32,645 --> 00:44:34,835 synergistically with fire, for example. 906 00:44:34,845 --> 00:44:37,285 Like, it's happened for, you know, millions of years. 907 00:44:37,455 --> 00:44:41,095 And, and, and, and there's so many things that we... 908 00:44:41,720 --> 00:44:44,810 Maybe take for granted, but they're actually not technically, physically 909 00:44:44,810 --> 00:44:48,450 in our bodies, that are in the outside world, but that are so intertwined with, 910 00:44:48,960 --> 00:44:54,030 with our society and our lives, um, you know, sources of water, we're drinking 911 00:44:54,030 --> 00:44:58,430 water, like in a way we live in synergy with water, and so I think similarly, 912 00:44:58,430 --> 00:45:00,650 yeah, we, we live in synergy with Bitcoin. 913 00:45:01,374 --> 00:45:02,574 Wonderful phrase here. 914 00:45:02,574 --> 00:45:05,634 And, uh, now I kind of want to come, come to a different point here. 915 00:45:05,694 --> 00:45:09,014 Uh, the panel that you, that you had actually just now that, uh, yeah. 916 00:45:09,014 --> 00:45:10,194 That you wanted to write after. 917 00:45:10,494 --> 00:45:15,204 Uh, it, it had the provocatively bullish, uh, when, when 100 k basically. 918 00:45:15,504 --> 00:45:18,474 Uh, but I, I wanna know, do, do you see any threats to Bitcoin? 919 00:45:18,479 --> 00:45:20,456 Like what would be the biggest threat to Bitcoin that you, 920 00:45:20,514 --> 00:45:21,624 that you can think of right now? 921 00:45:21,944 --> 00:45:28,244 Yeah, I really tried to go over that in my last report, because I think 922 00:45:28,244 --> 00:45:32,324 it is always at the end of a bear market, people have a long list of 923 00:45:32,324 --> 00:45:34,374 like, here are all the bad things that are going to happen to Bitcoin. 924 00:45:34,654 --> 00:45:38,774 And so I wanted to take it seriously and go over, you know, go over some of the 925 00:45:38,774 --> 00:45:43,314 worst scenarios and, and And, and, and because that's ultimately what happens 926 00:45:43,314 --> 00:45:49,984 is that when you go into a bull market, um, slowly the worries are debunked. 927 00:45:50,004 --> 00:45:52,924 Like you start to realize like, oh, well, we don't actually don't need to 928 00:45:52,924 --> 00:45:54,154 worry about that, but what about this? 929 00:45:54,184 --> 00:45:57,094 And then you get the wall of worry where you get the, the sell offs 930 00:45:57,104 --> 00:45:59,854 and, and eventually in the long run, it's just all a big uptrend. 931 00:45:59,864 --> 00:46:02,824 But in the moment you're like, oh no, we're going back to 932 00:46:02,824 --> 00:46:04,264 where we started or, or lower. 933 00:46:04,284 --> 00:46:08,934 Um, so, so in terms of biggest threats to Bitcoin, I think. 934 00:46:09,954 --> 00:46:14,464 I think Binance going bust is a pretty big one, um, as, as 935 00:46:14,464 --> 00:46:15,644 a, as a potential scenario. 936 00:46:15,644 --> 00:46:15,844 Wait, what? 937 00:46:15,954 --> 00:46:16,674 Long term? 938 00:46:17,354 --> 00:46:17,684 No, no, no. 939 00:46:17,684 --> 00:46:18,204 Oh, sorry. 940 00:46:18,214 --> 00:46:18,884 You mean long term? 941 00:46:18,884 --> 00:46:20,134 I thought I meant for this cycle. 942 00:46:20,134 --> 00:46:21,274 Oh, I definitely meant long term. 943 00:46:21,284 --> 00:46:22,264 Oh, I see, I see. 944 00:46:23,534 --> 00:46:27,384 Because I think long term, it's a necessity. 945 00:46:27,464 --> 00:46:28,284 Oh, yeah, 946 00:46:28,284 --> 00:46:28,584 yeah, yeah. 947 00:46:28,634 --> 00:46:29,034 Creative 948 00:46:29,034 --> 00:46:29,694 destruction, right? 949 00:46:29,694 --> 00:46:30,134 Yeah, of course. 950 00:46:30,484 --> 00:46:32,874 It's the great shitcoin purge. 951 00:46:33,174 --> 00:46:33,434 Yeah. 952 00:46:33,594 --> 00:46:34,464 No, absolutely. 953 00:46:34,474 --> 00:46:35,304 That's continuously happening. 954 00:46:35,709 --> 00:46:35,939 Yeah, 955 00:46:35,939 --> 00:46:36,419 no, no, no. 956 00:46:36,649 --> 00:46:38,429 No, we're totally on the same page. 957 00:46:38,939 --> 00:46:43,889 Long term, the biggest threats, I mean, in line with what you're saying, right, 958 00:46:43,889 --> 00:46:48,159 if Bitcoin is backed by human action, then complacency is the biggest risk, where we 959 00:46:48,349 --> 00:46:55,049 forget about the values, forget about what standards we have to hold up, for example, 960 00:46:55,399 --> 00:46:57,629 if all of us forgot how to apply rules. 961 00:46:58,549 --> 00:46:59,699 How electricity works. 962 00:46:59,729 --> 00:47:01,619 Literally, all humanity had amnesia. 963 00:47:01,619 --> 00:47:03,219 We don't, we forget how electricity 964 00:47:03,219 --> 00:47:03,459 works. 965 00:47:03,459 --> 00:47:04,179 That sort of happened 966 00:47:04,179 --> 00:47:04,799 here in Europe. 967 00:47:05,519 --> 00:47:06,959 Oh yeah, I mean, yeah, right? 968 00:47:07,029 --> 00:47:09,939 I mean, so then, then the infrastructure would start to crumble. 969 00:47:09,949 --> 00:47:11,489 Like the machines don't work on their own. 970 00:47:11,499 --> 00:47:13,089 We need to understand this. 971 00:47:13,399 --> 00:47:13,979 Yeah, yeah. 972 00:47:14,019 --> 00:47:17,019 So to me, that's, that's always been the biggest, uh, the biggest one. 973 00:47:17,379 --> 00:47:17,799 All right. 974 00:47:17,839 --> 00:47:20,959 I'm going to go, uh, down one of my little rabbit holes for a second. 975 00:47:20,959 --> 00:47:24,999 And Knut's smiling because I, I do this every once in the Vikings. 976 00:47:25,409 --> 00:47:26,789 Well, no, not this time. 977 00:47:26,789 --> 00:47:27,459 The Egyptians. 978 00:47:27,524 --> 00:47:34,054 So, so, so I, I am a big fan of the idea that, that, uh, there, there was a 979 00:47:34,064 --> 00:47:40,264 civilization, uh, long before civilization theoretically was like, um, 11, 600 years 980 00:47:40,264 --> 00:47:44,974 ago, younger Dryas, uh, impact hypothesis that a comet came down and basically 981 00:47:44,974 --> 00:47:48,714 ended something in civilization that there's Plenty of evidence for that. 982 00:47:48,774 --> 00:47:52,254 And the, the result and, and I'll, my, the, the source 983 00:47:52,254 --> 00:47:53,874 I'll give here briefly Sure. 984 00:47:53,874 --> 00:47:54,954 Is, is Graham Hancock. 985 00:47:54,984 --> 00:47:55,614 Yeah, yeah, yeah. 986 00:47:55,614 --> 00:47:59,274 The, the fingerprints of the gods, uh, magicians of the Gods American 987 00:47:59,274 --> 00:48:02,484 before Great books to, to check out on this topic, but the, the point, 988 00:48:02,754 --> 00:48:04,194 the thrust of also now on Netflix. 989 00:48:04,194 --> 00:48:05,094 Right, exactly. 990 00:48:05,574 --> 00:48:06,624 Uh, ancient apocalypse. 991 00:48:06,624 --> 00:48:06,774 Yeah. 992 00:48:06,774 --> 00:48:06,984 Yeah. 993 00:48:06,984 --> 00:48:07,434 Very good. 994 00:48:07,434 --> 00:48:08,874 So, so, so the, the. 995 00:48:08,939 --> 00:48:13,459 The point though is that, his point is that we are a society with amnesia, that 996 00:48:13,859 --> 00:48:22,049 this actually happened to us, that the, we don't know necessarily what this society 997 00:48:22,049 --> 00:48:24,074 was capable of, but we have some of it. 998 00:48:24,274 --> 00:48:27,594 evidence of it and these massive monuments such as the pyramids and 999 00:48:27,814 --> 00:48:31,834 and other, uh, other things that we're starting to find that are vastly old. 1000 00:48:32,754 --> 00:48:36,684 These are the, the bits of evidence and it's not to say aliens did stuff 1001 00:48:36,684 --> 00:48:41,199 like that, it's to say humanity was capable of, of Extraordinary things. 1002 00:48:41,299 --> 00:48:44,529 And so this is just to bring it back to the complacency point. 1003 00:48:44,529 --> 00:48:44,879 Yeah. 1004 00:48:45,099 --> 00:48:45,139 So, 1005 00:48:45,149 --> 00:48:51,169 yeah, it's so interesting, you know, and this is related to your general point I 1006 00:48:51,179 --> 00:48:54,909 just read and I don't know how credible it is, but apparently there's new, a new 1007 00:48:54,909 --> 00:49:00,589 research paper coming out arguing based on just DNA evidence of human beings that, 1008 00:49:00,589 --> 00:49:05,349 and this is a longer time frame, but that about 800, 000 years ago, the, the, the 1009 00:49:05,349 --> 00:49:08,399 human population pool shrank to about. 1010 00:49:08,444 --> 00:49:12,504 1, 200 individuals and it stayed there for like a hundred thousand years. 1011 00:49:12,534 --> 00:49:13,874 Insane, right? 1012 00:49:13,874 --> 00:49:15,264 And so we're all inbred. 1013 00:49:15,884 --> 00:49:17,004 Well, yeah, I guess. 1014 00:49:17,404 --> 00:49:17,644 Yeah. 1015 00:49:17,644 --> 00:49:19,224 Who knows how we got out of there? 1016 00:49:19,514 --> 00:49:23,114 Um, but also how much amnesia must they have had? 1017 00:49:23,114 --> 00:49:26,974 Like, imagine if humanity shrank to a thousand, this is only so 1018 00:49:26,984 --> 00:49:28,184 much information you can hold. 1019 00:49:28,184 --> 00:49:33,104 And so, yeah, I, I, I like the, you know, Younger Drives impact type, a little, I 1020 00:49:33,104 --> 00:49:35,204 mean, amateur as I am about this stuff. 1021 00:49:35,534 --> 00:49:41,384 Um, uh, to me, the most compelling is the, I like watching the Ancient Architects 1022 00:49:41,384 --> 00:49:43,234 channel on YouTube, the British guy. 1023 00:49:43,274 --> 00:49:44,144 I think he's British. 1024 00:49:44,584 --> 00:49:48,794 Um, and uh, just, you know, I forget there's also this Australian 1025 00:49:48,794 --> 00:49:51,014 researcher who often travels to Egypt. 1026 00:49:51,014 --> 00:49:51,634 Uncharted X. 1027 00:49:52,134 --> 00:49:54,014 I forget his name actually, but yeah. 1028 00:49:54,014 --> 00:49:54,194 Yeah, 1029 00:49:54,194 --> 00:49:54,674 that guy. 1030 00:49:54,934 --> 00:49:57,554 You know, I think it's really compelling when he talks about 1031 00:49:58,434 --> 00:50:00,454 how this stuff was actually made. 1032 00:50:00,454 --> 00:50:04,474 Like, you know, lifting these enormous stones inside the pyramids. 1033 00:50:04,904 --> 00:50:08,174 Uh, and then like how this, uh, what is it, alabaster? 1034 00:50:08,194 --> 00:50:09,014 How, how all that is. 1035 00:50:09,144 --> 00:50:11,244 Carved with this incredible precision. 1036 00:50:11,624 --> 00:50:15,994 Um, and then these like, uh, these simple bowls that they find, right? 1037 00:50:15,994 --> 00:50:20,434 And you try and you analyze and it's incredibly symmetrical and it has, 1038 00:50:20,844 --> 00:50:23,964 not only is it like symmetrical, but then it has perfect handles on them. 1039 00:50:24,344 --> 00:50:27,889 And this is in like a very brittle Extremely hard material. 1040 00:50:27,889 --> 00:50:29,899 Like basically stuff they cannot replicate today. 1041 00:50:29,909 --> 00:50:32,209 Like to me, that's already evidence of amnesia, right? 1042 00:50:32,209 --> 00:50:36,129 If we find something we can't replicate, well, we must've forgotten, you know? 1043 00:50:36,129 --> 00:50:40,049 And then, I mean, there was also the more like mainstream accepted stories 1044 00:50:40,049 --> 00:50:43,509 of like, Oh, the Greeks, they had the, uh, I think it was the, maybe the 1045 00:50:43,509 --> 00:50:46,559 Romans, they invented like the steam engine and then they just shelved it. 1046 00:50:46,559 --> 00:50:47,829 And, you know, so I think it happens. 1047 00:50:48,119 --> 00:50:51,229 Like, I think the big thing I actually have been wondering, 1048 00:50:51,229 --> 00:50:53,529 like that Graham Hancock theory. 1049 00:50:54,329 --> 00:50:56,999 Even regardless of if it's true or not, but it's compelling. 1050 00:50:57,309 --> 00:51:00,499 It's now hitting the mainstream like Netflix and places like that. 1051 00:51:00,979 --> 00:51:05,209 I think it's kind of breaking the idea that, that of progressivism. 1052 00:51:05,239 --> 00:51:06,329 Like, oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. 1053 00:51:06,519 --> 00:51:07,789 Things always get better. 1054 00:51:07,799 --> 00:51:10,719 Therefore, we just listen to the politicians because 1055 00:51:10,719 --> 00:51:12,109 they know what we need to do. 1056 00:51:12,109 --> 00:51:15,639 We're just going to follow because who's talking about a cliff? 1057 00:51:15,639 --> 00:51:16,909 We can never fall off a cliff. 1058 00:51:17,479 --> 00:51:18,909 And all of a sudden we have COVID. 1059 00:51:18,919 --> 00:51:20,269 All of a sudden we have inflation. 1060 00:51:20,609 --> 00:51:22,129 And here's this guy saying that. 1061 00:51:22,379 --> 00:51:24,889 You know, we had an amazing culture and it went to shit. 1062 00:51:24,899 --> 00:51:27,639 Like, you know, maybe we need to rethink some things. 1063 00:51:27,809 --> 00:51:27,909 I 1064 00:51:27,909 --> 00:51:32,359 think the amnesia is you don't need to rewind the clock 8, 000 years. 1065 00:51:32,429 --> 00:51:36,859 I mean, amnesia in society happens all the time. 1066 00:51:36,859 --> 00:51:38,989 Like, uh, like Austrian theory. 1067 00:51:38,999 --> 00:51:41,499 Sorry, but like Rahim, for example, like he's the last. 1068 00:51:41,634 --> 00:51:43,134 Austrian, Austrian economy. 1069 00:51:43,914 --> 00:51:45,774 Like Austria forgot about economics. 1070 00:51:45,974 --> 00:51:46,354 Yeah. 1071 00:51:46,354 --> 00:51:52,954 And not only that, but Marxist policies, policies get voted in over and over 1072 00:51:52,954 --> 00:51:59,184 again everywhere, even though they've been like debunked for years and like, 1073 00:51:59,214 --> 00:52:00,954 does anyone remember the lockdowns? 1074 00:52:01,024 --> 00:52:04,684 It seems like there's a big dose of amnesia going on there. 1075 00:52:04,694 --> 00:52:06,624 Like it seems like people for. 1076 00:52:06,969 --> 00:52:07,479 Forget. 1077 00:52:07,479 --> 00:52:08,139 So, yeah. 1078 00:52:08,169 --> 00:52:09,099 Quickly what, yeah. 1079 00:52:09,219 --> 00:52:15,639 What led up to all of these things like, and where the, where the, uh, where 1080 00:52:15,639 --> 00:52:17,589 the enemy is and what the enemy is. 1081 00:52:17,739 --> 00:52:21,789 I think it's part of why I'm like a really big believer in, in, um, 1082 00:52:22,449 --> 00:52:27,049 um, Mental health, like education and the pursuit of mental health. 1083 00:52:27,049 --> 00:52:31,019 Cause I think a really huge driver for why people forget 1084 00:52:31,359 --> 00:52:32,899 is they just get overwhelmed. 1085 00:52:32,939 --> 00:52:36,719 They just cannot control the emotions that come up when they think about 1086 00:52:36,939 --> 00:52:40,029 what it was like, or what, you know, what was impacting their 1087 00:52:40,029 --> 00:52:41,959 life or how, how things changed. 1088 00:52:41,999 --> 00:52:45,099 And, um, and, uh, and, and oftentimes people. 1089 00:52:45,524 --> 00:52:48,404 People go to crazy lengths to avoid feeling ashamed. 1090 00:52:48,534 --> 00:52:51,754 You know, why did, you know, all the policies that Russia is doing, for 1091 00:52:51,754 --> 00:52:55,344 example, a lot of it is to protect the national honor and, you know, prevent, 1092 00:52:55,664 --> 00:53:00,634 you know, if you think about the, um, the, the humiliation that happened 1093 00:53:00,644 --> 00:53:04,164 around the first world war and like, you know, the, the reparation payments 1094 00:53:04,164 --> 00:53:09,014 and like, so it's weirdly Crazy things happened because of simple emotions. 1095 00:53:09,014 --> 00:53:12,044 Anyway, so it was a, that's a different rabbit hole, but I just No, it was very 1096 00:53:12,044 --> 00:53:17,594 interesting, like the, yeah, I, and I think that's, you know about 1097 00:53:17,594 --> 00:53:21,764 this Belgian, um, psychologist, ma Mathias Desme, I think is his name. 1098 00:53:21,764 --> 00:53:22,304 Oh, I'm not familiar. 1099 00:53:22,309 --> 00:53:22,394 No. 1100 00:53:22,424 --> 00:53:25,754 Uh, yeah, he was, he had a, a, a big rise to fame during covid. 1101 00:53:25,759 --> 00:53:30,344 He talked about mice mass psychosis and mass for, he didn't call it that because 1102 00:53:30,344 --> 00:53:34,365 it's sort of a triggery word, but mass formation, I think is the word he used. 1103 00:53:35,049 --> 00:53:41,169 And how, how humans in a flock behave a certain way and when, when something 1104 00:53:41,169 --> 00:53:47,309 becomes a virtue signaling mechanism, like following, like I'm doing my part, 1105 00:53:47,649 --> 00:53:54,234 the, the Starship Troopers thing, like, uh, when you've, um, so, so during a. 1106 00:53:55,224 --> 00:54:01,824 During the lockdowns, uh, the further into those years we got, the weirder the rules 1107 00:54:01,854 --> 00:54:05,384 got, and the more often they changed. 1108 00:54:05,534 --> 00:54:10,334 So it became a virtue mechanism to know the most recent rule and follow that. 1109 00:54:10,334 --> 00:54:11,044 Yeah, exactly. 1110 00:54:11,044 --> 00:54:12,414 And I'm playing my part, you know? 1111 00:54:13,894 --> 00:54:19,354 And how societies get out of that is like, well, humor plays a big role. 1112 00:54:19,354 --> 00:54:23,134 Like, if you ridicule people for doing stuff, then all of a sudden... 1113 00:54:23,459 --> 00:54:26,649 People seem to wake up of it and it just disappears, just like 1114 00:54:26,649 --> 00:54:28,559 the East Block here in Europe. 1115 00:54:28,739 --> 00:54:34,019 It sort of disappeared overnight, almost, in comparison to like the Roman Empire. 1116 00:54:34,029 --> 00:54:38,579 So, yeah, I think there's a lot to be learned from like 1117 00:54:38,589 --> 00:54:40,269 group psychology in that sense. 1118 00:54:40,579 --> 00:54:43,439 Yeah, I remember my parents telling me that they were like 1119 00:54:43,499 --> 00:54:45,739 celebrating, I think this is 20, hmm. 1120 00:54:46,314 --> 00:54:47,024 2020 maybe? 1121 00:54:47,034 --> 00:54:49,854 I think they were celebrating, they were definitely celebrating um, 1122 00:54:49,864 --> 00:54:53,504 New Year's Eve and one of their friends had to go home before 1123 00:54:53,504 --> 00:54:55,154 midnight because there was a curfew. 1124 00:54:56,014 --> 00:54:57,054 Like insane, right? 1125 00:54:57,054 --> 00:55:00,834 They were not allowed to go on the street before midnight, even on New Year's Eve. 1126 00:55:01,489 --> 00:55:05,319 Just crazy stuff, like how does it even make sense to have an 1127 00:55:06,019 --> 00:55:08,609 outdoor curfew, it's absurd, right? 1128 00:55:08,669 --> 00:55:09,779 Total absurdity. 1129 00:55:10,129 --> 00:55:15,439 Yeah, and I guess, I want to learn more about, yeah, mob mentality, there's 1130 00:55:15,449 --> 00:55:17,619 a little book that I remember, um. 1131 00:55:18,304 --> 00:55:18,814 Reading. 1132 00:55:18,814 --> 00:55:21,114 I don't think I read the whole thing, but it was fascinating. 1133 00:55:21,114 --> 00:55:24,534 Written by Boris Sidis or Sidis. 1134 00:55:24,644 --> 00:55:28,794 He was the father of William James Sidis and, um, and William James was 1135 00:55:28,794 --> 00:55:33,564 like, uh, one of the, the, the real famous prodigy children back in the, 1136 00:55:33,914 --> 00:55:38,089 the same time of, um, um, Uh, William James, the psychologist, actually, 1137 00:55:38,099 --> 00:55:41,559 because this William James, the prodigy, was named after the friend 1138 00:55:41,559 --> 00:55:44,029 of his father, uh, the psychologist. 1139 00:55:44,059 --> 00:55:51,129 So, anyway, so Boris Tsidis was, uh, grew up in Russia, and, uh, he was, uh, sent, I 1140 00:55:51,129 --> 00:55:55,569 believe, either to prison or to the Gulag, uh, for three years because he had... 1141 00:55:56,119 --> 00:55:58,289 uh, taught some farmers how to read and write. 1142 00:55:58,489 --> 00:56:00,049 Like, that was his crime in Russia. 1143 00:56:00,479 --> 00:56:04,869 And, uh, and so he then later was a very passionate psychologist and he 1144 00:56:04,869 --> 00:56:08,569 wrote about the psychology of the mob because he had witnessed it so often. 1145 00:56:08,999 --> 00:56:12,459 Uh, and, and just really writing about how dangerous it is, you know, when 1146 00:56:12,459 --> 00:56:14,209 people get whipped into a frenzy. 1147 00:56:14,449 --> 00:56:19,279 And then you have, you write that virtual signaling or it's almost like, and you 1148 00:56:19,319 --> 00:56:24,749 see it in cults as well, where, where it's almost like You know the environment is 1149 00:56:24,749 --> 00:56:30,909 crazy, you know that somebody is going to pay, there's going to be a punishment, 1150 00:56:31,029 --> 00:56:35,969 somebody is going to be made the example, and you want to not be at the bottom, so 1151 00:56:35,969 --> 00:56:39,869 you want to be the one running away from the bear that's a little bit farther away, 1152 00:56:39,869 --> 00:56:43,899 and so you just, in North Korea, you see it, right, where there's somebody dies 1153 00:56:43,899 --> 00:56:47,969 and everybody's trying their best to cry the hardest, because the one who cries 1154 00:56:47,989 --> 00:56:51,799 the least, even if it's already crazy, they're going to get in trouble, so yeah. 1155 00:56:52,229 --> 00:56:52,559 www. 1156 00:56:53,549 --> 00:56:54,259 Insanity. 1157 00:56:54,269 --> 00:56:54,289 Yeah. 1158 00:56:55,119 --> 00:56:55,619 Absolute 1159 00:56:55,689 --> 00:56:56,379 insanity. 1160 00:56:56,429 --> 00:56:56,959 And it was 1161 00:56:56,999 --> 00:56:59,499 so, wasn't it surreal to witness it in real time? 1162 00:56:59,539 --> 00:56:59,989 Yeah. 1163 00:57:00,099 --> 00:57:00,289 It 1164 00:57:00,299 --> 00:57:00,489 was. 1165 00:57:00,489 --> 00:57:01,649 I've never in my life seen that. 1166 00:57:01,649 --> 00:57:07,139 And like, it's a reminder that, uh, it's, it's never safe with humans. 1167 00:57:07,199 --> 00:57:12,219 Like the, we, uh, complete craziness can happen at any point, like, and 1168 00:57:12,219 --> 00:57:16,319 it's, it made you, makes you more vigilant and pick up on these little... 1169 00:57:17,899 --> 00:57:22,059 And, uh, I recently read the white pill by Michael Malice. 1170 00:57:23,959 --> 00:57:27,409 It's about the, the Soviet, the history of the Soviet Union, basically. 1171 00:57:27,839 --> 00:57:32,719 And, uh, um, in that there, there are examples of, of people who committed 1172 00:57:32,719 --> 00:57:39,529 crimes in, in, In late Soviet, late Soviet era, that knew that they 1173 00:57:39,529 --> 00:57:43,419 were innocent, but that willingly went to the gulags anyway, because 1174 00:57:43,419 --> 00:57:44,839 they wanted to defend the system. 1175 00:57:44,959 --> 00:57:51,129 And like, so, so, so, so deeply entrenched into their minds that, that the system 1176 00:57:51,129 --> 00:57:52,719 was the important thing to uphold. 1177 00:57:52,899 --> 00:57:53,239 Wait, wait, so, 1178 00:57:53,819 --> 00:57:54,649 I don't 1179 00:57:54,649 --> 00:57:54,929 follow. 1180 00:57:54,929 --> 00:57:55,589 It's like... 1181 00:57:55,789 --> 00:58:00,679 Ultimate collectivism, when you, you, you know that you're innocent, but you play 1182 00:58:00,679 --> 00:58:03,419 along anyway, because the system says so. 1183 00:58:03,919 --> 00:58:04,656 It's a lot of practice. 1184 00:58:04,656 --> 00:58:05,489 It was a series of crimes, 1185 00:58:05,489 --> 00:58:08,629 they were accused, but they didn't do it, but they just went along with it. 1186 00:58:08,659 --> 00:58:08,949 Yeah. 1187 00:58:09,209 --> 00:58:12,329 And, and, and it was, but they were accused, but could they... 1188 00:58:12,914 --> 00:58:15,184 Was it even an option to defend themselves? 1189 00:58:16,164 --> 00:58:20,884 Uh, yeah, okay, this is from memory and according to the book. 1190 00:58:20,884 --> 00:58:24,164 But there were obvious cases where they could have just said, no, look 1191 00:58:24,164 --> 00:58:25,624 at this evidence, I didn't do this. 1192 00:58:25,744 --> 00:58:29,904 But it was futile to a certain extent. 1193 00:58:29,954 --> 00:58:34,874 But still, just having a chance of not getting into the gulag would be... 1194 00:58:36,254 --> 00:58:37,074 Wow, yeah, 1195 00:58:37,074 --> 00:58:41,614 really, like, it's like the frog jumping back in the pot or something. 1196 00:58:41,614 --> 00:58:42,064 Yeah, yeah. 1197 00:58:42,624 --> 00:58:45,064 Yeah, wow, hmm. 1198 00:58:45,804 --> 00:58:50,624 So what can we do to avoid this complacency, this scenario? 1199 00:58:50,634 --> 00:58:51,144 We're doing 1200 00:58:51,144 --> 00:58:51,734 it right now. 1201 00:58:52,434 --> 00:58:55,894 I, you know, I think this is really important to, you know, just keep, 1202 00:58:55,924 --> 00:59:01,784 um, remembering the past, talking about Just universal, immutable 1203 00:59:02,404 --> 00:59:05,434 principles, trying to, trying to be vigilant there too, where you don't 1204 00:59:05,434 --> 00:59:08,954 get stuck in being complacent and just assuming, you know, always go back, 1205 00:59:09,254 --> 00:59:11,374 do the math again, go over the proofs. 1206 00:59:11,704 --> 00:59:15,634 Um, yeah, I, I believe a lot in interdisciplinarity. 1207 00:59:15,674 --> 00:59:18,894 I really believe that, you know, that, that we can build bridges between, 1208 00:59:19,154 --> 00:59:23,789 and, because in a way, Science, in the broadest sense, has gotten very 1209 00:59:23,789 --> 00:59:28,569 fragmented because of how everything is subsidized and become bureaucratic. 1210 00:59:28,569 --> 00:59:32,419 And so I think there's this great project where we can bring things back 1211 00:59:32,419 --> 00:59:35,909 together in a more unified way and, um... 1212 00:59:36,679 --> 00:59:40,949 And so that more people can become part of this conversation, like there were times 1213 00:59:40,949 --> 00:59:44,709 in history where, like I mean, even the ancient Greeks, like we, now what we find 1214 00:59:44,719 --> 00:59:48,769 back is like about 1 percent of the stuff they actually produced, with in terms of 1215 00:59:48,769 --> 00:59:53,899 plays and books and all that, and even with that, this overwhelming evidence 1216 00:59:53,959 --> 00:59:59,344 that, The percentage of intellectuals, the percentage of people who really were 1217 00:59:59,524 --> 01:00:05,684 very aware and, and engaged and, and, and just brilliant was incredibly high. 1218 01:00:05,704 --> 01:00:08,394 And these people didn't have different genetics than we do. 1219 01:00:08,774 --> 01:00:12,724 So it is possible to just have much more, a much higher percentage of the 1220 01:00:12,724 --> 01:00:17,624 population get like alive and activated and be part of that great discussion. 1221 01:00:17,994 --> 01:00:21,484 And so, yeah, it's like we're, we got to keep the flame alive. 1222 01:00:21,484 --> 01:00:21,634 Right. 1223 01:00:21,634 --> 01:00:21,884 I mean, 1224 01:00:21,894 --> 01:00:22,424 absolutely. 1225 01:00:22,879 --> 01:00:23,209 Yeah. 1226 01:00:23,249 --> 01:00:24,579 So you heard it from the man. 1227 01:00:24,609 --> 01:00:28,879 If, uh, so if you want to avoid Armageddon, don't forget to 1228 01:00:28,889 --> 01:00:31,829 like, subscribe, click the bell for notification, brush your 1229 01:00:31,849 --> 01:00:33,169 teeth and all that, you know? 1230 01:00:33,289 --> 01:00:33,909 Exactly. 1231 01:00:34,019 --> 01:00:34,389 Amen. 1232 01:01:35,408 --> 01:01:35,698 Thanks. 1233 01:01:35,698 --> 01:01:38,518 I think this, I think this is a good. 1234 01:01:38,548 --> 01:01:42,498 Just thought to maybe tie this one off, but can you tell our, our viewers 1235 01:01:42,498 --> 01:01:45,418 and listeners where they can find you and what you're up to these days 1236 01:01:45,908 --> 01:01:46,398 and that sort of thing? 1237 01:01:46,398 --> 01:01:48,868 Yeah, I would say just Google my name, Thurde Meester. 1238 01:01:48,868 --> 01:01:52,578 Um, it's a bit of a weird name, but, um, just do that and 1239 01:01:52,578 --> 01:01:53,878 you'll see my Twitter account. 1240 01:01:54,068 --> 01:01:54,948 We like weird names. 1241 01:01:54,968 --> 01:01:57,158 Oh, sure, yeah, yeah, yeah. 1242 01:01:57,698 --> 01:01:59,908 Uh, my last name has four E's in it. 1243 01:01:59,948 --> 01:02:04,078 Anyway, uh, but so my, my company is adamantresearch, A 1244 01:02:04,078 --> 01:02:06,818 D A M A N T, adamantresearch. 1245 01:02:06,818 --> 01:02:07,168 com. 1246 01:02:07,168 --> 01:02:12,208 So if you go there, you'll see an archive of all my, uh, my reports 1247 01:02:12,208 --> 01:02:17,658 going back to 2012 and also a link to my latest, which is free, it's called 1248 01:02:17,658 --> 01:02:19,768 How to Position for the Bitcoin Boom. 1249 01:02:20,113 --> 01:02:24,663 20 pages, very dense, and it's literally what I sent to my own friends and family. 1250 01:02:24,683 --> 01:02:24,983 Yeah. 1251 01:02:25,463 --> 01:02:26,133 Fantastic. 1252 01:02:26,773 --> 01:02:29,013 Thank you very much for a very good conversation. 1253 01:02:29,433 --> 01:02:29,733 Yeah. 1254 01:02:29,733 --> 01:02:31,313 And good luck with everything. 1255 01:02:31,623 --> 01:02:32,093 Thank you. 1256 01:02:32,990 --> 01:02:34,760 So, what did you think of that episode with TOR? 1257 01:02:35,180 --> 01:02:36,930 I always enjoy digging into big topics. 1258 01:02:37,050 --> 01:02:40,400 The importance of avoiding complacency is my biggest takeaway from this one. 1259 01:02:40,460 --> 01:02:41,160 What was yours? 1260 01:02:41,520 --> 01:02:42,120 Let us know. 1261 01:02:42,332 --> 01:02:45,222 You can send us a boostergram on Fountain, leave us a comment on YouTube, 1262 01:02:45,232 --> 01:02:46,882 or get in touch on Noster or Twitter. 1263 01:02:47,282 --> 01:02:49,422 If you're watching on YouTube, don't forget to like the episode 1264 01:02:49,422 --> 01:02:50,562 and subscribe to the channel. 1265 01:02:50,942 --> 01:02:54,072 Our show's sponsors are Wasabi Wallet, Orange Pill App, The 1266 01:02:54,072 --> 01:02:56,542 Bitcoin Way, Zelox, and Bitcoinbook. 1267 01:02:56,542 --> 01:02:56,862 shop. 1268 01:02:57,302 --> 01:02:58,862 Check out their details in the description. 1269 01:02:59,432 --> 01:03:00,262 That's all for now. 1270 01:03:00,652 --> 01:03:03,082 See you next time, and thanks for listening.