Adam Back on Bitcoin Adoption and Innovation - Freedom Footprint Show 50

1 00:00:00,082 --> 00:00:05,737 you know, prospect of 10 million Bitcoins being bought, it may not be possible for 2 00:00:05,857 --> 00:00:09,697 at all, like, for any amount of money because, you know, as more people try to 3 00:00:09,697 --> 00:00:13,237 do that, the price will go up and then they won't be able to afford to do it. 4 00:00:13,652 --> 00:00:19,581 I, uh, went to some kind of private meeting, like a bunch of like investors 5 00:00:19,581 --> 00:00:23,827 and a few tech people just like general discussion some years ago. 6 00:00:24,367 --> 00:00:29,765 And like a question I asked for the, in like Bitcoin holder investor or fund 7 00:00:29,765 --> 00:00:33,995 manager type of people is like, well, what features would you value most? 8 00:00:34,235 --> 00:00:34,415 Mm-hmm. 9 00:00:34,715 --> 00:00:38,175 From the technical side for Bitcoin? 10 00:00:38,735 --> 00:00:41,990 And their answer was surprising, which was like, Just don't break it. 11 00:00:41,995 --> 00:00:42,167 Yeah. 12 00:00:42,766 --> 00:00:45,390 Welcome back to the Freedom Footprint show, the Bitcoin 13 00:00:45,390 --> 00:00:49,150 philosophy show with Knut Svanholm and me, Luke the Pseudo Finn. 14 00:00:49,461 --> 00:00:51,981 For those of you who've been in the Bitcoin space for a while, our 15 00:00:51,981 --> 00:00:53,731 guest today needs no introduction. 16 00:00:54,351 --> 00:00:56,361 Joining us is none other than Dr. 17 00:00:56,371 --> 00:01:00,281 Adam Back, co founder and CEO of Blockstream, the mind behind 18 00:01:00,281 --> 00:01:02,671 Hashcash and a true OG Bitcoiner. 19 00:01:03,901 --> 00:01:07,111 In today's in person interview, recorded at Baltic Cottony Badger 20 00:01:07,111 --> 00:01:11,281 2023, shout out Hoddle Hoddle, we dive into plenty of important topics. 21 00:01:11,731 --> 00:01:14,921 We discover Blockstream's current projects, we explore the developments 22 00:01:14,921 --> 00:01:17,751 of Bitcoin's second layer solutions, and we debate their use 23 00:01:17,751 --> 00:01:19,691 cases after hyperbitcoinization. 24 00:01:20,301 --> 00:01:22,161 We even touch on the drive chain debate. 25 00:01:22,476 --> 00:01:24,366 You'll want to hear what Adam has to say about that. 26 00:01:24,816 --> 00:01:27,996 But before we jump in, a quick reminder that the best way to support the show 27 00:01:27,996 --> 00:01:30,946 is to send us a boost or stream us some sats using a value for value 28 00:01:30,966 --> 00:01:32,806 podcasting app such as Fountain. 29 00:01:33,296 --> 00:01:36,116 If you're listening to this show as a podcast, check it out on Fountain. 30 00:01:36,266 --> 00:01:38,516 You can earn sats from listening and you can support us and 31 00:01:38,526 --> 00:01:39,956 all your other favorite shows. 32 00:01:40,696 --> 00:01:43,836 You can also support us on Geyser Fund or send sats directly to our 33 00:01:43,836 --> 00:01:46,296 lightning address, freedom at getalby. 34 00:01:46,336 --> 00:01:46,736 com. 35 00:01:47,476 --> 00:01:50,496 And if you want to exchange your dirty fiat, you can support us on Patreon. 36 00:01:50,751 --> 00:01:52,111 All our links are in the description. 37 00:01:53,091 --> 00:01:55,201 If you're watching on YouTube, don't forget to like the episode 38 00:01:55,201 --> 00:01:56,281 and subscribe to the channel. 39 00:01:56,781 --> 00:01:59,091 Even if you're listening as a podcast, head over to our YouTube 40 00:01:59,091 --> 00:02:00,471 channel and subscribe to us there. 41 00:02:00,511 --> 00:02:01,561 It would be a big help. 42 00:02:02,371 --> 00:02:06,511 And finally, we want to thank today's sponsors, Wasabi Wallet, Orange Pill App, 43 00:02:06,621 --> 00:02:09,711 The Bitcoin Way, Zelonks, and bitcoinbook. 44 00:02:09,731 --> 00:02:10,141 shop. 45 00:02:10,811 --> 00:02:12,421 All their information is in the description. 46 00:02:12,441 --> 00:02:14,431 We'll be talking a bit more about them later. 47 00:02:15,571 --> 00:02:21,021 And now, without further ado, here is Adam Back on the Freedom Footprint Show. 48 00:02:21,581 --> 00:02:21,911 Yeah. 49 00:02:21,911 --> 00:02:26,741 So a man that needs no introduction, sat, I mean Dr. 50 00:02:26,746 --> 00:02:29,841 Adam back, welcome to the Freedom, freedom Freedom 51 00:02:30,011 --> 00:02:30,701 Footprint show. 52 00:02:30,701 --> 00:02:31,901 That's the name of a show, right? 53 00:02:31,931 --> 00:02:33,341 Yeah, that's correct. 54 00:02:33,346 --> 00:02:33,801 Welcome. 55 00:02:35,411 --> 00:02:40,061 Um, yeah, the c e o of Blockstream and mentioned in the white 56 00:02:40,061 --> 00:02:41,351 paper and all this stuff. 57 00:02:41,741 --> 00:02:42,221 Great. 58 00:02:42,341 --> 00:02:50,051 Um, I saw your panel, uh, yesterday with, uh, about, yeah, about things we 59 00:02:50,051 --> 00:02:51,881 don't usually talk about, like price. 60 00:02:53,051 --> 00:02:55,241 And it was a, a couple of takeaways. 61 00:02:55,301 --> 00:02:59,531 Uh, There was a question during the panel like, do we have to 62 00:02:59,531 --> 00:03:01,661 end the Fed before Bitcoin hits? 63 00:03:02,201 --> 00:03:06,491 A hundred K, which I think is slightly oxymoronic because if you end the fed, 64 00:03:06,491 --> 00:03:08,291 there's, there are no more dollars. 65 00:03:10,001 --> 00:03:15,671 But there was also this, this am amazing observation, uh, that you made that 66 00:03:15,671 --> 00:03:21,251 there are now, um, a million addresses with one Bitcoin or more in them, or 67 00:03:21,251 --> 00:03:23,321 like with around one Bitcoin, right? 68 00:03:23,321 --> 00:03:24,371 In, in each one of them. 69 00:03:24,371 --> 00:03:24,431 Yeah. 70 00:03:25,091 --> 00:03:30,161 So that's 1 21 of, uh, 21, is that a word? 71 00:03:30,251 --> 00:03:33,191 Uh, of the entire Bitcoin supply. 72 00:03:33,971 --> 00:03:38,831 So, uh, well, what happens when the next million people. 73 00:03:39,256 --> 00:03:41,206 Want to do that and yeah. 74 00:03:41,206 --> 00:03:42,826 That's good. 75 00:03:42,946 --> 00:03:43,026 Starting. 76 00:03:43,786 --> 00:03:44,066 Well, yeah. 77 00:03:44,066 --> 00:03:49,456 I mean, it was a statistic put out a few months ago, probably from Glass, 78 00:03:49,456 --> 00:03:52,546 no, or one of the analyst companies who are looking at on chain deer. 79 00:03:53,176 --> 00:03:56,986 And I thought it was like positive rate because there are people like develop 80 00:03:56,986 --> 00:04:00,256 a target so the, you know, the dollar cost averaging or they're buying as 81 00:04:00,256 --> 00:04:04,156 they sell things or get some money together and they're trying to get 82 00:04:04,156 --> 00:04:05,536 to a target of one Bitcoin another. 83 00:04:05,536 --> 00:04:09,766 There are a million people who've got there or, or more I think is the metric 84 00:04:10,396 --> 00:04:16,156 and say, you know, my initial thought was, well, 1 million is good, but that's 85 00:04:16,156 --> 00:04:17,626 bullish, but maybe we can do better. 86 00:04:17,626 --> 00:04:19,516 Like maybe we can get to 10 million in the future. 87 00:04:19,756 --> 00:04:23,866 And I was like, wait a minute, that's probably not possible because 88 00:04:24,466 --> 00:04:26,236 there are only 21 million Bitcoin. 89 00:04:27,036 --> 00:04:29,256 And many of them are not on the market, right? 90 00:04:29,256 --> 00:04:32,556 They've been cold bought and cold stored by people who've 91 00:04:32,556 --> 00:04:33,546 already held them for years. 92 00:04:33,546 --> 00:04:34,626 They're probably not selling. 93 00:04:35,076 --> 00:04:38,796 And the people who just, you know, saved up and managed to buy a whole 94 00:04:38,796 --> 00:04:41,076 Bitcoin, they're not gonna sell it because that was the target 95 00:04:41,081 --> 00:04:43,146 they took some years to achieve. 96 00:04:43,151 --> 00:04:43,326 Right? 97 00:04:43,326 --> 00:04:43,386 Yeah. 98 00:04:43,986 --> 00:04:49,476 So, you know, prospect of 10 million Bitcoins being bought, it may not 99 00:04:49,476 --> 00:04:53,736 be possible for at all, like, for any amount of money because, you 100 00:04:53,736 --> 00:04:57,276 know, as more people try to do that, the price will go up and then they 101 00:04:57,276 --> 00:04:58,476 won't be able to afford to do it. 102 00:04:59,346 --> 00:04:59,526 No, 103 00:04:59,526 --> 00:05:00,606 that's, uh, yeah. 104 00:05:00,611 --> 00:05:05,376 That's fascinating because like, the way I see the volatility in, in Bitcoin, 105 00:05:05,381 --> 00:05:10,916 it's, it's mainly because the, the, uh, What Raheem said rest yesterday. 106 00:05:10,916 --> 00:05:15,476 Like the, it it comes from the existing stock and not from the flow part of it. 107 00:05:15,476 --> 00:05:19,076 So not from the newly minted or newly mine Bitcoins. 108 00:05:19,706 --> 00:05:26,846 Uh, so the hard thing to to know though is what is that ratio like, how much of the 109 00:05:26,876 --> 00:05:32,006 liquidity comes from the existing stock and how much is the newly mined bitcoins? 110 00:05:32,456 --> 00:05:32,546 Hmm. 111 00:05:33,326 --> 00:05:33,536 Yeah. 112 00:05:33,541 --> 00:05:34,616 I mean there are a few like. 113 00:05:36,266 --> 00:05:37,586 Positive reinforcements. 114 00:05:37,586 --> 00:05:40,466 So one is, well, they could be negative in a down sense as 115 00:05:40,471 --> 00:05:42,746 well, is the, uh, the miners. 116 00:05:42,746 --> 00:05:48,026 So, you know, many of the miners are like prop miners, people mining for themselves 117 00:05:48,056 --> 00:05:51,956 with a, with a company, uh, either public company or private company or individuals 118 00:05:51,956 --> 00:05:53,486 with, you know, a garage full of miners. 119 00:05:53,966 --> 00:05:55,676 They're trying to actually keep the coins right. 120 00:05:55,706 --> 00:05:57,896 But they're having to pay the power bills. 121 00:05:58,376 --> 00:06:03,266 And typically what they do is to spend all their money on miners and then 122 00:06:03,266 --> 00:06:05,936 they sell a portion of the Bitcoin to pay for the power bill mm-hmm. 123 00:06:05,936 --> 00:06:07,376 On their operation costs. 124 00:06:07,466 --> 00:06:13,736 And in a bull market, you know, maybe they can keep 50, 70% of the 125 00:06:13,736 --> 00:06:15,086 coins they mine and that's good. 126 00:06:15,146 --> 00:06:20,141 But in a, in a bear market, Uh, they never have to sell 70% of the 127 00:06:20,141 --> 00:06:22,421 coins just to pay the power bill. 128 00:06:22,421 --> 00:06:23,651 So they're not keeping much, right? 129 00:06:24,191 --> 00:06:30,491 But as soon as the price starts to go up faster than the hash rate can grow, then 130 00:06:31,031 --> 00:06:33,221 they stop sell, they start selling less. 131 00:06:33,341 --> 00:06:38,771 And so they, they take coins that were like regularly being sold on the market. 132 00:06:38,771 --> 00:06:39,821 They take them off the market. 133 00:06:40,361 --> 00:06:45,731 And so it's kind of an effect, a bit like a halving sort of a boost to, you know, 134 00:06:46,091 --> 00:06:47,681 it creates some price momentum, right? 135 00:06:47,681 --> 00:06:50,831 So price goes up for some random reasons, some good news, or 136 00:06:50,891 --> 00:06:54,701 like a string of positive media coverage or something like that. 137 00:06:55,331 --> 00:06:57,851 Then the miners will stop selling as much and you'll, and 138 00:06:57,881 --> 00:06:59,081 it'll boost the price further. 139 00:06:59,111 --> 00:07:00,941 'cause now suddenly less coins will sale rate. 140 00:07:01,601 --> 00:07:05,711 So that's a kind of positive, uh, reinforcement. 141 00:07:06,716 --> 00:07:12,086 So, so do you expect a a, a like Heinz catchup type moment, uh, 142 00:07:12,416 --> 00:07:17,396 during the next cycle where, where there's not as much of a selloff 143 00:07:17,396 --> 00:07:20,426 because there's just too few coins? 144 00:07:20,426 --> 00:07:25,376 Like, is there going to be a well gradually then suddenly type moment? 145 00:07:25,676 --> 00:07:25,826 I mean, 146 00:07:25,826 --> 00:07:29,996 it looks a bit like it because the, uh, dollar cost average army is 147 00:07:29,996 --> 00:07:34,926 just gradually, you know, it's like a tug of war game where they, they 148 00:07:34,946 --> 00:07:38,426 keep buying every day and like the coins on exchange are just shrinking 149 00:07:38,426 --> 00:07:41,666 and shrinking and shrinking and like, if it gets too low, something 150 00:07:41,666 --> 00:07:43,376 explosive is gonna happen somewhere. 151 00:07:43,466 --> 00:07:43,766 Right. 152 00:07:43,796 --> 00:07:46,646 'cause you know, yeah, you can't, like if there are no, if a coin, 153 00:07:46,706 --> 00:07:50,006 if an exchange gets out of coins, you can't buy coins for any money. 154 00:07:50,011 --> 00:07:54,236 You've gotta temp somebody to deposit some coins that they intentionally 155 00:07:54,241 --> 00:07:55,946 took off exchange to cold store. 156 00:07:55,951 --> 00:07:56,006 Yeah. 157 00:07:56,066 --> 00:07:57,806 Like an intent for that to be some time. 158 00:07:57,806 --> 00:08:00,926 So the price might have to be quite high before they would do that. 159 00:08:01,436 --> 00:08:05,036 So, you know, I, it is interesting, like also the. 160 00:08:06,161 --> 00:08:09,821 It seems like, you know, there are different types of trading activity. 161 00:08:10,421 --> 00:08:12,491 One is what I call price formation. 162 00:08:12,491 --> 00:08:17,321 So it's people who are, you know, buying for the long term mm-hmm. 163 00:08:17,561 --> 00:08:21,191 Or selling for tactical reasons where they, they don't have 164 00:08:21,196 --> 00:08:22,091 the money to buy them back. 165 00:08:22,091 --> 00:08:22,391 Right. 166 00:08:22,391 --> 00:08:26,081 Like they're minor and they need to pay off some debts, or they have to 167 00:08:26,081 --> 00:08:29,021 cover their power bills so they're not buying 'em back tomorrow. 168 00:08:29,111 --> 00:08:33,101 And then, but then there's a lot of speculation and that's zero sum game 169 00:08:33,101 --> 00:08:34,721 and doesn't really change the price. 170 00:08:34,721 --> 00:08:35,771 It just adds liquidity. 171 00:08:36,251 --> 00:08:45,521 And apparently, um, the, like, the price volume is, is more in a 172 00:08:45,521 --> 00:08:49,421 derivative, like in the, I mean, in the sort of perpetual futures, so in 173 00:08:49,421 --> 00:08:51,281 the high leverage area these days. 174 00:08:51,281 --> 00:08:51,611 Right. 175 00:08:51,611 --> 00:08:56,561 So that's, that's actually relatively zero sum, uh, I would say typically. 176 00:08:56,561 --> 00:08:56,801 Right. 177 00:08:56,831 --> 00:08:57,551 'cause it's high leverage. 178 00:08:58,121 --> 00:08:58,361 Hmm. 179 00:08:59,381 --> 00:09:01,751 So, um, Hmm. 180 00:09:01,811 --> 00:09:06,611 Yeah, I've, I've heard a statistic from, from glass node that the, not only are 181 00:09:06,611 --> 00:09:11,591 the, the addresses with one coin or less in them growing in numbers, but also 182 00:09:11,591 --> 00:09:15,731 the, uh, addresses with 10,000 bitcoins or more are shrinking in numbers. 183 00:09:16,331 --> 00:09:16,661 Hmm. 184 00:09:16,751 --> 00:09:22,361 Uh, so the, the way I see that it is, this is a redistribution of wealth, really. 185 00:09:22,721 --> 00:09:23,231 Yeah. 186 00:09:23,411 --> 00:09:25,781 That sounds like the genie coefficient is improving, huh? 187 00:09:25,841 --> 00:09:26,111 Yeah. 188 00:09:26,111 --> 00:09:26,171 Yeah. 189 00:09:26,951 --> 00:09:32,621 It's, it's a little hard to know for sure because, you know, some 190 00:09:32,621 --> 00:09:37,152 of the bigger wallets turn out to be, Exchange balances or mm-hmm. 191 00:09:37,158 --> 00:09:39,821 Funds or custodians that represent many users. 192 00:09:40,421 --> 00:09:48,101 And also some of the more privacy conscious users will store their 193 00:09:48,101 --> 00:09:51,491 coins and break them up into, you know, hundreds of parts. 194 00:09:51,496 --> 00:09:51,761 Right. 195 00:09:51,761 --> 00:09:52,021 So, yeah. 196 00:09:52,061 --> 00:09:52,451 Yeah. 197 00:09:52,451 --> 00:09:54,941 They've got a hundred Bitcoin, they store like one Bitcoin a 198 00:09:54,941 --> 00:09:56,681 hundred times in different UT XOs. 199 00:09:57,041 --> 00:10:01,031 So there's, there's error on both sides, but still, I think the 200 00:10:01,061 --> 00:10:06,701 public data is useful because it's a indication of a generalized defect. 201 00:10:06,911 --> 00:10:07,151 Yeah. 202 00:10:07,151 --> 00:10:08,381 It's hinting at something. 203 00:10:08,381 --> 00:10:08,771 Right. 204 00:10:09,131 --> 00:10:13,451 So if you try to extrapolate this far ahead into the futures, like 205 00:10:13,511 --> 00:10:19,481 two generations from now, like how big is the how, how, how big of a. 206 00:10:20,126 --> 00:10:25,016 Portion of the total amounts of bitcoins are gonna be squandered away by this, 207 00:10:25,526 --> 00:10:30,446 you know, reckless first generation of Bitcoiners that we are like, are we gonna 208 00:10:30,451 --> 00:10:33,386 be able to make up inheritance plans? 209 00:10:33,386 --> 00:10:40,076 Or like, how many bitcoins will there actually be available in say, 2050 or 20? 210 00:10:40,076 --> 00:10:40,496 A hundred? 211 00:10:40,526 --> 00:10:41,066 Like 20? 212 00:10:41,396 --> 00:10:46,961 Well, I mean, if they spend them, it's uh, I mean, it's redistribution rate 213 00:10:46,961 --> 00:10:49,121 because they'll spend them at a business. 214 00:10:49,121 --> 00:10:52,751 It will either keep them or sell them on the market, which, you know, gives 215 00:10:52,751 --> 00:10:54,191 somebody else an opportunity to buy. 216 00:10:54,731 --> 00:10:55,991 So I'm thinking more 217 00:10:55,996 --> 00:10:57,581 in boating accident terms. 218 00:10:57,581 --> 00:10:58,361 Like how, how 219 00:10:58,361 --> 00:10:59,021 reckless are people? 220 00:10:59,021 --> 00:11:03,971 Oh, actual, actual, like backup failure, inheritance mechanism failure. 221 00:11:04,091 --> 00:11:04,391 Yeah. 222 00:11:04,391 --> 00:11:05,981 I mean, probably some. 223 00:11:06,101 --> 00:11:08,861 I, I think, you know, the technology's improving slowly. 224 00:11:09,521 --> 00:11:15,401 Um, but yeah, I mean, key management is, you know, not that easy, right? 225 00:11:15,401 --> 00:11:17,111 I mean, the mechanism's easy enough. 226 00:11:17,116 --> 00:11:20,801 You know, you write down the words, you do it on some kind of fireproof thing. 227 00:11:20,801 --> 00:11:24,431 Maybe you make multiple, like, so there's redundant backup 228 00:11:24,431 --> 00:11:25,691 or two or three or something. 229 00:11:25,691 --> 00:11:26,801 Put 'em in different locations. 230 00:11:26,801 --> 00:11:32,471 But I think what's harder is, um, intuition about where 231 00:11:32,471 --> 00:11:33,521 is a good place to store it. 232 00:11:33,581 --> 00:11:36,761 That's still gonna be there in like, 50 years or 20 years, 233 00:11:36,761 --> 00:11:37,721 depending on how old you are, right? 234 00:11:38,191 --> 00:11:38,611 Mm-hmm. 235 00:11:39,111 --> 00:11:43,271 Um, like the physical world suffers bit raw. 236 00:11:43,301 --> 00:11:46,031 People's memory is not as good as they imagine it is, so. 237 00:11:46,031 --> 00:11:46,121 Mm-hmm. 238 00:11:46,361 --> 00:11:51,311 You know, and some people actually have accidents, you know, like they have a 239 00:11:51,311 --> 00:11:56,501 car crash or a boating, like literally they lose the, the backup or they forget 240 00:11:56,771 --> 00:12:00,341 the extra good password they made and didn't use for five years or something. 241 00:12:00,341 --> 00:12:02,411 So there can be losses too. 242 00:12:02,441 --> 00:12:03,551 Yeah, for sure. 243 00:12:04,241 --> 00:12:04,541 Yeah. 244 00:12:05,141 --> 00:12:08,051 So, uh, from one thing to another, what is, what is 245 00:12:08,081 --> 00:12:10,121 Blockstream working on right now? 246 00:12:10,121 --> 00:12:11,531 What is the current projects 247 00:12:11,531 --> 00:12:11,831 there? 248 00:12:12,311 --> 00:12:13,301 Uh, lots of things. 249 00:12:13,301 --> 00:12:15,641 So we're working on, um, lightning. 250 00:12:15,671 --> 00:12:20,921 So we have this, um, protocol called Greenlight, which is a kind of client. 251 00:12:21,251 --> 00:12:27,221 So, so when a, a Lightning Wallet interacts with the Lightning 252 00:12:27,221 --> 00:12:34,076 Network, it, um, You know, it, it does certain network things, right? 253 00:12:34,076 --> 00:12:38,066 It, it, it syncs with a gossip network, which gives it a map of the network. 254 00:12:38,066 --> 00:12:39,626 It is a source row protocol. 255 00:12:39,626 --> 00:12:43,436 So each client needs to know the full map of how to route to other people, 256 00:12:43,826 --> 00:12:48,176 and it, it does various kinds of network information and to keep up with 257 00:12:48,181 --> 00:12:52,406 the network, understand which routes are reliable and things like that. 258 00:12:52,406 --> 00:12:55,136 So there's a certain amount of overhead and you can think about that 259 00:12:55,136 --> 00:13:01,796 as the kind of analog of a, um, a full node wallet like bitcoin core. 260 00:13:01,796 --> 00:13:02,066 Right. 261 00:13:02,589 --> 00:13:06,348 so yeah, you, you've got a full node, kind of Bitcoin wallet and 262 00:13:06,348 --> 00:13:07,518 a full node lightning wallet. 263 00:13:07,818 --> 00:13:14,468 And then there are sort of client server modes where, you know, you, you trust a 264 00:13:14,468 --> 00:13:19,208 custodian and it, it runs the node, or you have remote control wallets where 265 00:13:19,208 --> 00:13:22,478 you run a node and then your, your phone wallet actually remote controls it. 266 00:13:22,478 --> 00:13:23,478 The remote control. 267 00:13:24,803 --> 00:13:29,003 But, um, so Greenlight is a, is another kind of protocol, 268 00:13:29,633 --> 00:13:32,153 which is still self custodial. 269 00:13:32,153 --> 00:13:35,903 You have your keys and you, you know, you verify the information you get from 270 00:13:35,903 --> 00:13:39,263 the network and so you know, you know you have a good degree of security that 271 00:13:39,263 --> 00:13:42,953 somebody can't trick you into spending the money in a way you didn't expect. 272 00:13:43,913 --> 00:13:49,013 But it's sort of server assisted and so it makes a much lighter client. 273 00:13:49,073 --> 00:13:51,323 The client doesn't need to sync as much data. 274 00:13:51,328 --> 00:13:52,703 It doesn't need as much storage. 275 00:13:53,063 --> 00:13:55,463 It can connect to the network, reconnect to the network after being 276 00:13:55,463 --> 00:13:59,663 offline for a few days and immediately transact with high reliability and 277 00:13:59,663 --> 00:14:02,363 normal, like full node type of line. 278 00:14:02,513 --> 00:14:06,203 Lightning wallet will sync a lot of data and analyze it before it can do that. 279 00:14:06,383 --> 00:14:11,423 So it makes a sort of lower bandwidth flow of storage faster, more reliable. 280 00:14:11,423 --> 00:14:12,743 Lightning wallet basically. 281 00:14:13,013 --> 00:14:17,918 Um, And so we've, uh, you know, worked with a few companies. 282 00:14:17,918 --> 00:14:22,508 So Breeze is adopting that as a protocol and we're integrating 283 00:14:22,508 --> 00:14:24,278 it into the Green Wallet too. 284 00:14:24,278 --> 00:14:28,238 And that's available in, uh, kind of early access beta program. 285 00:14:28,268 --> 00:14:30,458 And it should be live as well soon. 286 00:14:30,458 --> 00:14:37,448 So that's, uh, interesting for, uh, like recent developments in Lightning, 287 00:14:37,718 --> 00:14:42,968 um, and from a Core Lightning, which is the implementation of Blockstream 288 00:14:42,968 --> 00:14:45,578 works on, and there are lots of open source contributors as well. 289 00:14:45,668 --> 00:14:45,758 Mm-hmm. 290 00:14:46,003 --> 00:14:53,228 Um, we have, um, some kind of, uh, user interface to control a node. 291 00:14:53,228 --> 00:14:56,378 So if you do run a Core Lightning node, there's a user interface to, 292 00:14:56,798 --> 00:14:59,738 you know, so you'd have to like come online, change the configurations 293 00:14:59,828 --> 00:15:00,878 as the user interface for it. 294 00:15:00,938 --> 00:15:05,768 And that's been, uh, it was already on Unreel and now it's available 295 00:15:05,768 --> 00:15:08,228 on Start nine as well, which is another kind of Bitcoin full 296 00:15:08,228 --> 00:15:09,758 node where you can install apps. 297 00:15:10,913 --> 00:15:14,363 Uh, so there's a new app, which is Core Lightning with the user interface. 298 00:15:14,543 --> 00:15:23,453 Um, and so there are a number of, um, interesting developments 299 00:15:23,458 --> 00:15:29,543 between sort of this evolution of lightning becoming a bridging 300 00:15:29,543 --> 00:15:31,313 protocol between other layer twos. 301 00:15:31,373 --> 00:15:39,533 So there's another company called Bolt uh, bolts, which is doing submarine swaps. 302 00:15:39,533 --> 00:15:44,933 So a kind of trustless swap historically between a Bitcoin U T X 303 00:15:44,938 --> 00:15:47,303 O and a lightning Challenge balance. 304 00:15:47,783 --> 00:15:50,903 So if you're a merchant and you're selling a lot of things and 305 00:15:50,903 --> 00:15:52,073 you've got, you know, a lot of. 306 00:15:52,868 --> 00:15:54,488 Bitcoin stacked up on a lightning channel. 307 00:15:55,088 --> 00:15:58,118 You can swap it with bolts who will give you a U T X O. 308 00:15:58,118 --> 00:15:58,208 Mm-hmm. 309 00:15:58,668 --> 00:15:59,028 On chain. 310 00:15:59,438 --> 00:16:02,588 And then you'll get your capacity back so you're ready to accept more payments. 311 00:16:03,098 --> 00:16:05,768 So you can use it to take capacity out or you can do the opposite as a 312 00:16:05,768 --> 00:16:07,988 user, you can use it to buy capacity. 313 00:16:08,348 --> 00:16:11,888 And so you pay them A U T X O and they add balance. 314 00:16:12,698 --> 00:16:20,708 And with the, uh, sort of rapid increase in on chain fees from, you know, the orals 315 00:16:20,708 --> 00:16:24,818 and the descriptors and all that stuff, it created a natural problem for them. 316 00:16:24,908 --> 00:16:28,178 You know, they were having trouble making these transactions complete. 317 00:16:28,298 --> 00:16:28,478 Yeah. 318 00:16:28,478 --> 00:16:29,408 And reliability. 319 00:16:30,308 --> 00:16:33,368 And then a very short period of time, like in a week or two, they implemented. 320 00:16:34,358 --> 00:16:37,538 A submarine swap between liquid Bitcoin, so on a liquid side 321 00:16:37,538 --> 00:16:39,488 chain layer two and lightning. 322 00:16:39,698 --> 00:16:43,658 So now you could rebalance an on chain lightning channel using a 323 00:16:43,658 --> 00:16:48,488 different layer two Bitcoin, liquid Bitcoin, and it's, it's cheaper. 324 00:16:48,493 --> 00:16:52,298 Like the liquid is not as congested as the main chain, and it's 325 00:16:52,298 --> 00:16:55,958 faster because the blocks are one minute and two blocks is final. 326 00:16:56,618 --> 00:17:00,278 And so then they had a way for you to basically rebalance 327 00:17:00,283 --> 00:17:00,908 your lightning channel. 328 00:17:00,908 --> 00:17:02,798 So the same kind of behavior, but using liquid. 329 00:17:03,158 --> 00:17:07,909 And even after the fees, you know, the orals and the scripters, mm-hmm. 330 00:17:08,478 --> 00:17:13,418 Phase like that fad faded, I guess when the feed fell to normal levels. 331 00:17:14,198 --> 00:17:18,158 Apparently they were saying that the, uh, liquid Bitcoin swap remained 332 00:17:18,158 --> 00:17:21,638 like a significant proportion of their ongoing swap traffic. 333 00:17:21,638 --> 00:17:25,808 So people found that a convenient and faster way to rebalance channels 334 00:17:26,318 --> 00:17:27,758 once they got used to it, basically. 335 00:17:27,878 --> 00:17:32,438 So, so when the wizards broke Bitcoin, so to speak, they they actually helped. 336 00:17:32,948 --> 00:17:33,398 Yeah. 337 00:17:33,428 --> 00:17:39,668 Well it, it's, it is interesting 'cause like it seems that, um, there's 338 00:17:39,668 --> 00:17:47,138 not so much proactive sort of work by service companies in Bitcoin like 339 00:17:47,138 --> 00:17:50,498 exchanges and wallets and payment providers and swap suppliers. 340 00:17:50,978 --> 00:17:53,648 They don't necessarily like proactively plan for what would 341 00:17:53,648 --> 00:17:56,078 happen if the fees increase in the future, but when they increase. 342 00:17:57,128 --> 00:18:02,018 They take some, uh, sort of disaster avoiding action quickly. 343 00:18:02,023 --> 00:18:02,358 Uhhuh, right? 344 00:18:02,358 --> 00:18:02,598 Yeah. 345 00:18:02,738 --> 00:18:07,358 And so they just look around for what, what's the quickest, the quickest fix. 346 00:18:07,448 --> 00:18:10,448 And they'll look at, you know, recent technology developments 347 00:18:10,448 --> 00:18:11,708 or things they can do quickly. 348 00:18:11,798 --> 00:18:12,578 And this is one of them. 349 00:18:12,578 --> 00:18:16,898 So, yeah, I mean actually, you know, we can thank the, uh, inscriptions 350 00:18:16,898 --> 00:18:21,518 for that, which is they created a fees spike, which made Bitcoin 351 00:18:21,518 --> 00:18:23,858 more robust and, uh, scalable. 352 00:18:23,858 --> 00:18:24,068 Right? 353 00:18:24,098 --> 00:18:26,828 'cause people adopted another kind of technology that 354 00:18:26,828 --> 00:18:29,288 offloads capacity draw on a 355 00:18:29,318 --> 00:18:29,858 main chain. 356 00:18:30,458 --> 00:18:33,818 It's, it's, uh, akin to the lockdowns driving the development 357 00:18:33,818 --> 00:18:35,048 of video conferencing apps. 358 00:18:35,048 --> 00:18:35,138 Mm-hmm. 359 00:18:35,378 --> 00:18:35,678 Like, 360 00:18:37,118 --> 00:18:41,693 well, here it's good because, you know, it means that, Now there's more U T X 361 00:18:41,693 --> 00:18:44,783 O space for cold storage and censorship resistant payments on the main chain. 362 00:18:44,783 --> 00:18:44,873 Mm-hmm. 363 00:18:45,113 --> 00:18:47,783 Because, you know, if there're the same number of lightning channels, 364 00:18:47,783 --> 00:18:50,783 you can rebalance 'em without touching the main chain, which is great. 365 00:18:50,783 --> 00:18:51,053 Right? 366 00:18:51,223 --> 00:18:51,513 Yeah. 367 00:18:51,683 --> 00:18:52,103 Yeah. 368 00:18:52,553 --> 00:18:56,813 And, uh, so what about the latest fad, this BIP 300 debate? 369 00:18:56,873 --> 00:19:01,643 And like, I, I won't go to, into the details of that very thing, but there's, 370 00:19:01,673 --> 00:19:08,003 there seems to be this eternal battle between, uh, Bitcoin conservatism, if 371 00:19:08,003 --> 00:19:10,553 you will, and, uh, Bitcoin progressivism. 372 00:19:10,583 --> 00:19:10,673 Mm-hmm. 373 00:19:10,913 --> 00:19:14,873 Like, so, uh, have we already oscillated like what, what, 374 00:19:14,873 --> 00:19:17,003 what's, what's your angle on that? 375 00:19:17,183 --> 00:19:22,343 Uh, is it worth, like, how much should we resist change and how 376 00:19:22,553 --> 00:19:26,003 much should we push for change and how hard is it to change it? 377 00:19:26,003 --> 00:19:28,793 Like, do you see bitcoin ever hard forking again? 378 00:19:28,793 --> 00:19:32,873 I know there are some issues that need to be resolved, but 379 00:19:32,878 --> 00:19:33,323 Yeah. 380 00:19:33,353 --> 00:19:36,413 I mean, I think technically most of these are soft forks 381 00:19:36,413 --> 00:19:38,543 and, and there's a surprising. 382 00:19:39,623 --> 00:19:40,973 Amount you can do with a software. 383 00:19:41,033 --> 00:19:44,813 Like it turns out to be more powerful than people originally thought. 384 00:19:44,873 --> 00:19:49,973 But I think nevertheless, the question is like, historically 385 00:19:50,153 --> 00:19:57,023 Bitcoin has resisted any change that has not got widespread technical 386 00:19:57,053 --> 00:20:00,053 Konsensus, like all the technical people agree it's the best approach 387 00:20:00,053 --> 00:20:02,693 to a given like problem or mm-hmm. 388 00:20:03,533 --> 00:20:04,433 A new feature. 389 00:20:05,303 --> 00:20:09,023 And that, you know, the ecosystem like it, i e the Bitcoin investors. 390 00:20:09,023 --> 00:20:15,803 Like it, 'cause the way I look at the, the fork was, is, you know, I 391 00:20:15,803 --> 00:20:18,713 think a lot of people, everybody from different viewpoints learned from it. 392 00:20:18,743 --> 00:20:21,473 I think, um, weren't sure how that was gonna resolve. 393 00:20:21,473 --> 00:20:24,533 Some people thought miners had a lot of control, and so they lobbied miners. 394 00:20:24,533 --> 00:20:26,033 It turned out they had very little control. 395 00:20:26,333 --> 00:20:28,823 Other people thought developers had control, but, you know, the solution 396 00:20:28,823 --> 00:20:29,933 didn't involve the developers. 397 00:20:30,443 --> 00:20:33,323 And really it turned out that the market won. 398 00:20:33,443 --> 00:20:37,283 You know, so the people that, I mean, I, I look at it like the. 399 00:20:38,078 --> 00:20:39,968 Labor theory of value fallacy, right? 400 00:20:39,998 --> 00:20:45,758 If, if I'm a Goldberg and I'm buying gold and some miners have a revolt over there 401 00:20:45,758 --> 00:20:48,698 and decide they're gonna dig up some lead and expect me to pay for it for, 402 00:20:49,088 --> 00:20:51,578 because it costs money to dig outta the ground, I'm like, I don't, I don't care. 403 00:20:51,578 --> 00:20:52,778 I don't, I want gold. 404 00:20:53,318 --> 00:20:55,688 I don't care how expensive it was to wind the lead, I don't want it. 405 00:20:56,288 --> 00:20:58,568 And they're either gonna go bankrupt or they're gonna stop, right? 406 00:20:59,018 --> 00:21:05,438 So I think that is ultimately what happened with, you know, with this 407 00:21:05,438 --> 00:21:09,248 fork drummer, which is that, you know, the miners and the people lobbying 408 00:21:09,248 --> 00:21:13,118 them were philosophically wanting to make a different trade off of 409 00:21:13,123 --> 00:21:18,158 bitcoins, sort of dilute Bitcoins immutability and sensate resistance 410 00:21:18,158 --> 00:21:20,588 and like decentralized robustness. 411 00:21:21,308 --> 00:21:23,858 Trade that off for some cheaper, like on chain transactions. 412 00:21:24,218 --> 00:21:24,278 Yeah. 413 00:21:24,338 --> 00:21:26,708 And the investors said, no, we don't, we don't want that. 414 00:21:26,798 --> 00:21:32,018 And they have a way to usay the digital gold, which they run a full node, and 415 00:21:32,018 --> 00:21:35,138 if you mind something they don't like, it's automatic, they don't even see it. 416 00:21:35,138 --> 00:21:35,408 Right. 417 00:21:35,468 --> 00:21:36,608 And they certainly won't accept it. 418 00:21:36,668 --> 00:21:38,978 So, and they set the price. 419 00:21:39,038 --> 00:21:43,268 So, you know, the miners will just, it turn out, will mine whatever 420 00:21:43,268 --> 00:21:46,208 is, uh, more profitable to mine when it comes to the crunch. 421 00:21:46,208 --> 00:21:46,388 Right. 422 00:21:46,388 --> 00:21:46,448 Hmm. 423 00:21:47,078 --> 00:21:52,568 So now, um, I do think the. 424 00:21:53,528 --> 00:21:59,888 The concept of Bitcoin immutability or ossification is important for long 425 00:21:59,888 --> 00:22:02,918 term because change implies risk. 426 00:22:03,188 --> 00:22:09,248 And you know, you want to like reduce risk as more value piles up on Bitcoin. 427 00:22:09,548 --> 00:22:13,688 And um, I mean if you look at, let's say other internet things like T C 428 00:22:13,693 --> 00:22:18,368 P I P, basic T C P I P version four hasn't changed materially in decades. 429 00:22:18,638 --> 00:22:18,968 Right. 430 00:22:18,968 --> 00:22:20,078 And like it still interoperates. 431 00:22:20,298 --> 00:22:20,718 Mm-hmm. 432 00:22:20,798 --> 00:22:22,178 It's essentially the same protocol. 433 00:22:22,658 --> 00:22:27,968 Um, and so, you know, ideally you'd want bitcoin layer one to 434 00:22:27,968 --> 00:22:29,978 be like that after, you know. 435 00:22:29,978 --> 00:22:30,248 Yeah, yeah. 436 00:22:30,278 --> 00:22:32,798 Various limitations are, are improved. 437 00:22:32,858 --> 00:22:39,248 So the question is what changes minimally need to be there to get to that point? 438 00:22:39,818 --> 00:22:42,879 And that's like not so clear 'cause it's still in a bit of r and d. 439 00:22:43,388 --> 00:22:46,959 So, you know, um, I think. 440 00:22:48,713 --> 00:22:55,643 You know, like recent op codes that's been discussed are like, uh, a p 441 00:22:55,643 --> 00:23:00,473 o, so something to make, um, a more efficient variant of lightning possible 442 00:23:00,623 --> 00:23:03,803 l symmetry and APOs any previous sale. 443 00:23:04,163 --> 00:23:06,923 Um, another one is covenants. 444 00:23:06,928 --> 00:23:10,643 So they're sort of a attached to use cases that people think are useful. 445 00:23:10,643 --> 00:23:16,133 So, um, and that the, the second one, the sort of covenant use 446 00:23:16,133 --> 00:23:18,413 case is attached to vaults. 447 00:23:18,623 --> 00:23:18,713 Mm-hmm. 448 00:23:18,953 --> 00:23:25,343 So I think, and I think that is a, uh, a significant improvement in cold storage 449 00:23:25,343 --> 00:23:34,493 security, which means that if you have some Bitcoin in a safe and, you know, 450 00:23:34,493 --> 00:23:37,223 you go away for a few days and when you come back, the safe's not there anymore. 451 00:23:37,553 --> 00:23:40,103 You know, somebody's taking it away and like cut it open or something. 452 00:23:40,103 --> 00:23:40,163 Yeah. 453 00:23:40,943 --> 00:23:43,103 Now you need to be able to undo that transaction. 454 00:23:43,898 --> 00:23:46,208 Like send a coin somewhere even colder. 455 00:23:46,508 --> 00:23:46,898 Right? 456 00:23:47,168 --> 00:23:49,118 And so a vault enables you to do that. 457 00:23:49,268 --> 00:23:49,358 Mm-hmm. 458 00:23:49,748 --> 00:23:52,538 And to share the undo transaction with other people. 459 00:23:52,748 --> 00:23:57,188 So you could give it, you know, to your friends, it'd be kind of like a anti 460 00:23:57,188 --> 00:23:59,108 kidnapping possibility also, right? 461 00:23:59,108 --> 00:23:59,109 Mm-hmm. 462 00:23:59,115 --> 00:24:03,698 Because, you know, if, if the, if you can give the cancellation instructions and 463 00:24:03,698 --> 00:24:09,068 pre-sign transactions to third parties, they can say, well, uh, you know, I 464 00:24:09,068 --> 00:24:10,808 can't reach the guy for a couple of days. 465 00:24:11,018 --> 00:24:12,008 I'm getting nervous. 466 00:24:12,013 --> 00:24:13,388 None of his friends have heard from him. 467 00:24:13,388 --> 00:24:16,538 So we're gonna cancel all these transactions, and that will kind 468 00:24:16,538 --> 00:24:18,278 of, so that's the vault concept. 469 00:24:18,283 --> 00:24:22,578 So I think that is quite hard to do properly without, you know, 470 00:24:22,718 --> 00:24:23,888 like a covenant, like op code 471 00:24:23,888 --> 00:24:24,248 or something. 472 00:24:24,253 --> 00:24:26,618 Couldn't, couldn't it be done with time locks? 473 00:24:27,668 --> 00:24:34,418 Um, well, the thing is you need to sort of, I mean the, the, you 474 00:24:34,423 --> 00:24:36,098 need another variable, like Yeah. 475 00:24:36,098 --> 00:24:40,448 I mean, the effect you want is that, You can devolt. 476 00:24:40,478 --> 00:24:44,198 So I can take some coins out of a vault and they're kind of stuck 477 00:24:44,198 --> 00:24:48,458 in a time lock situation where I can spend them with a key, I have 478 00:24:48,458 --> 00:24:50,288 access to after a week, let's say. 479 00:24:51,068 --> 00:24:55,029 Um, and, you know, if I have the keys, I could spend 'em in a different way, right? 480 00:24:55,034 --> 00:24:55,128 Mm-hmm. 481 00:24:55,588 --> 00:24:56,588 In the meantime. 482 00:24:56,678 --> 00:25:01,298 And so I need, I need to like pre-sign it with some keys I don't have anymore. 483 00:25:01,418 --> 00:25:04,628 So then you have to kind of, the, the be, I think the best you can do to simulate it 484 00:25:04,628 --> 00:25:10,148 is, you know, I have my cold wallet and I pre-sign all the ut XOs and then I delete 485 00:25:10,148 --> 00:25:12,728 the keys, which is kinda scary right now. 486 00:25:12,728 --> 00:25:15,968 Now my cold, now my wallet is a bunch of pre-sign transactions 487 00:25:16,808 --> 00:25:17,858 and I have to back those up. 488 00:25:18,218 --> 00:25:20,378 So that's, that's hard to do with a seed. 489 00:25:20,378 --> 00:25:25,148 I have to like back up a lot of, so it's, it adds its own risk. 490 00:25:26,123 --> 00:25:31,043 It's a bit of a difficult trade off because you are, on the one 491 00:25:31,043 --> 00:25:33,593 hand, trying to have a good backup of the keys until you use them. 492 00:25:34,193 --> 00:25:38,153 On the other hand, trying to be very sure you've deleted them so that you 493 00:25:38,153 --> 00:25:40,283 can't override your vault mechanism. 494 00:25:40,283 --> 00:25:41,783 So it's kind of a bit of a conflict. 495 00:25:41,873 --> 00:25:41,963 Mm-hmm. 496 00:25:42,263 --> 00:25:46,163 So it's hard to get to do it in a robust and like reliable way, 497 00:25:46,493 --> 00:25:47,663 whereas the vault can do it. 498 00:25:47,783 --> 00:25:51,623 'cause you can, you know, write a covenant allows you to write a sort of 499 00:25:51,628 --> 00:25:56,093 restriction, which is to say, well I have the keys, but you know, the coins 500 00:25:56,093 --> 00:26:00,053 are set so that I'm not able to spend them unless I spend 'em like this. 501 00:26:00,653 --> 00:26:05,033 And so you can add the, the vault, the de vaulting as a restriction on the coins. 502 00:26:05,753 --> 00:26:07,913 And then you don't need to delete keys basically. 503 00:26:07,913 --> 00:26:09,473 So that's the, okay. 504 00:26:09,563 --> 00:26:09,863 Yeah. 505 00:26:10,493 --> 00:26:13,943 So you can simulate here, but not, not that well. 506 00:26:14,708 --> 00:26:18,518 And like covenants also, I mean, most Bitcoin op codes are very low level. 507 00:26:18,548 --> 00:26:21,548 It's kinda like a machine instructions in A C P U. 508 00:26:21,548 --> 00:26:25,238 It doesn't do very much like each op code is like, you know, push a 509 00:26:25,238 --> 00:26:30,038 number on a stack or add two numbers together, or verify signature. 510 00:26:30,043 --> 00:26:32,228 They're like very low level things. 511 00:26:32,228 --> 00:26:32,738 Mm-hmm. 512 00:26:32,748 --> 00:26:37,418 Um, and so a volt is like the, sorry, the, the covenants are a bit like that, 513 00:26:37,448 --> 00:26:41,258 you know, it, it requires a certain structure in the output transaction. 514 00:26:41,528 --> 00:26:42,788 So it's a relatively simple thing. 515 00:26:42,788 --> 00:26:45,278 And so of course once you have it, you can, you can do 516 00:26:45,278 --> 00:26:46,358 other things with it as well. 517 00:26:46,358 --> 00:26:46,598 Right. 518 00:26:47,108 --> 00:26:47,528 Alright. 519 00:26:48,098 --> 00:26:49,178 So yeah. 520 00:26:50,138 --> 00:26:54,938 So what separates, um, liquid from, from these other proposed side 521 00:26:54,938 --> 00:26:56,468 chains and drive chains and whatnot? 522 00:26:56,468 --> 00:26:58,448 Like what, what's the, what's the key difference? 523 00:26:58,868 --> 00:27:03,188 Yeah, so liquid is the sort of side chain you can build without. 524 00:27:03,638 --> 00:27:04,238 New op codes. 525 00:27:05,108 --> 00:27:12,278 So, and the way, the way it works is there's a federation, so a number of 526 00:27:12,278 --> 00:27:18,818 exchanges and service providers operating a hardware security module that is, you 527 00:27:18,818 --> 00:27:20,498 know, participating in a liquid network. 528 00:27:20,798 --> 00:27:24,608 So they're running a liquid full node, which is a kind of extended 529 00:27:24,608 --> 00:27:26,378 version of Bitcoin protocol. 530 00:27:26,408 --> 00:27:30,368 So like liquid side chain is Bitcoin plus some extensions, basically. 531 00:27:30,373 --> 00:27:30,698 Right. 532 00:27:31,178 --> 00:27:36,518 And then they, and, and from the Bitcoin's perspective, the coins 533 00:27:36,518 --> 00:27:37,838 look like they're in a big multisig. 534 00:27:38,288 --> 00:27:43,643 Um, And these hardware security modules will, you know, accept 535 00:27:43,643 --> 00:27:46,793 coins in and let people claim them on liquid as liquid Bitcoin. 536 00:27:46,793 --> 00:27:47,663 Mm-hmm. 537 00:27:47,723 --> 00:27:52,973 And if on the liquid side somebody requests to peg them out or like freeze 538 00:27:52,973 --> 00:27:57,083 them or burn them on liquid and request them back on the Bitcoin side, then 539 00:27:57,083 --> 00:28:01,883 the, uh, the hardware security modules will sign to follow that instruction 540 00:28:01,883 --> 00:28:03,203 and give it back to somebody on Bitcoin. 541 00:28:03,803 --> 00:28:12,623 So it has, um, you know, it's not as censorship resistant or. 542 00:28:13,478 --> 00:28:17,168 Like, and, and not as good a place to do cold storage as Bitcoin, but 543 00:28:17,168 --> 00:28:21,218 for its kind of general purpose of like medium sized transactions, 544 00:28:21,878 --> 00:28:23,828 short term trading or transacting. 545 00:28:24,158 --> 00:28:25,448 But it has some advantages. 546 00:28:25,453 --> 00:28:32,198 So, uh, for example, one of the extensions is, uh, stable coins. 547 00:28:32,318 --> 00:28:32,438 Mm-hmm. 548 00:28:32,444 --> 00:28:35,708 So you could have other assets and so that's convenient because now you can 549 00:28:36,398 --> 00:28:42,818 do kind of limit orders and atomic swaps between, you know, different assets. 550 00:28:42,823 --> 00:28:44,838 Whereas on Bitcoin, there's only one asset is Bitcoin, right? 551 00:28:44,858 --> 00:28:44,948 Mm-hmm. 552 00:28:45,578 --> 00:28:46,448 So you get that. 553 00:28:46,868 --> 00:28:50,708 Um, and so the difference is really that, you know, if something goes 554 00:28:50,708 --> 00:28:54,098 wrong on liquid, Bitcoin doesn't really know or care about it. 555 00:28:54,128 --> 00:28:55,688 All it sees is a multisig. 556 00:28:55,693 --> 00:28:56,038 Mm-hmm. 557 00:28:56,123 --> 00:28:56,408 Right? 558 00:28:56,468 --> 00:29:01,733 Whereas I think there are a few different types of, Um, 559 00:29:02,213 --> 00:29:04,283 merge mine, side chain ideas. 560 00:29:04,283 --> 00:29:06,743 The original one evolved fraud proofs. 561 00:29:07,193 --> 00:29:11,843 So the idea there was with the merge mining there would be, you know, the 562 00:29:11,848 --> 00:29:19,013 Bitcoin miners would be also hashing the, uh, the side chain, so they wouldn't 563 00:29:19,013 --> 00:29:23,423 like look at the side chain and see if it's valid necessarily, but they would 564 00:29:24,053 --> 00:29:25,793 like put a timestamp on it or something. 565 00:29:25,793 --> 00:29:26,123 Right. 566 00:29:26,123 --> 00:29:28,283 So dedicate hashing power to it. 567 00:29:28,793 --> 00:29:28,973 Yeah. 568 00:29:28,973 --> 00:29:31,403 I mean, it's merged mines, so, you know, they mine bitcoin and then 569 00:29:31,403 --> 00:29:34,193 they put the checks on off the most recent side chain block mm-hmm. 570 00:29:34,613 --> 00:29:35,873 Into the main Bitcoin block. 571 00:29:36,413 --> 00:29:39,803 But it doesn't, you know, if, if the side chain like has a bug and 572 00:29:39,803 --> 00:29:41,693 forks like experimental or something. 573 00:29:41,753 --> 00:29:42,053 Yeah. 574 00:29:42,203 --> 00:29:45,953 It won't fork the Bitcoin network, you know, they can ignore it and 575 00:29:47,003 --> 00:29:52,433 uh, typically the side chain could be, you know, the Bitcoin chain can 576 00:29:52,433 --> 00:29:56,933 be progressing forwards, processing transactions, adding new blocks. 577 00:29:57,728 --> 00:30:01,268 While the merge mining is doing a reorg, you know, like undoing 578 00:30:01,268 --> 00:30:05,078 a transaction or oring something that was a mistake on a side chain. 579 00:30:05,078 --> 00:30:09,128 So there's not really any pressure on a side chain to want to undo 580 00:30:09,308 --> 00:30:12,668 Bitcoin blocks just to undo something on a side chain, because that's, 581 00:30:12,673 --> 00:30:13,778 that's one of the concerns, right? 582 00:30:13,778 --> 00:30:13,779 Mm-hmm. 583 00:30:13,785 --> 00:30:17,468 It's like you get a lot of economic activity on a side chain and something 584 00:30:17,468 --> 00:30:20,108 goes wrong and then they desperately wanna undo it, and then they come and 585 00:30:20,108 --> 00:30:23,798 try to plead with the miners to okay, pay them to undo the whole chain. 586 00:30:23,798 --> 00:30:24,008 Right? 587 00:30:24,008 --> 00:30:27,278 And you, you want Bitcoin to like never go backwards. 588 00:30:27,398 --> 00:30:29,948 Um, you don't want people 589 00:30:29,948 --> 00:30:31,598 to shit Bitcoin on Bitcoin, right? 590 00:30:32,108 --> 00:30:32,438 Yeah. 591 00:30:32,438 --> 00:30:36,188 Well, I mean, you don't want to import the, the incentive 592 00:30:36,188 --> 00:30:37,538 to undo mistakes onto Bitcoin. 593 00:30:37,538 --> 00:30:38,768 It's just kinda like Ethereum, right? 594 00:30:38,768 --> 00:30:41,288 They, they made some god awful mess. 595 00:30:41,288 --> 00:30:45,578 They like screwed something up big time and the people affected 596 00:30:45,583 --> 00:30:49,823 financially were the insiders and so they like, Undid a bunch of stuff. 597 00:30:49,883 --> 00:30:50,093 Yeah. 598 00:30:50,363 --> 00:30:52,043 And now there are two Ethereums. 599 00:30:52,103 --> 00:30:52,403 Right. 600 00:30:52,523 --> 00:30:57,953 And uh, so you know, if that was a Bitcoin side chain and not Ethereum, you 601 00:30:57,953 --> 00:31:01,793 know, what would they have come and, and one that's tied to Bitcoin, like Yeah. 602 00:31:01,823 --> 00:31:02,453 Block height. 603 00:31:02,513 --> 00:31:05,363 Now would they, and they want to undo it, would they do come to the miners? 604 00:31:05,368 --> 00:31:06,503 Is like, could you please undo that? 605 00:31:07,043 --> 00:31:10,073 I mean, I think it's very difficult in Bitcoin, you know, people have tried that, 606 00:31:10,073 --> 00:31:12,383 like a number of exchanges have got hacks. 607 00:31:12,893 --> 00:31:16,703 For large amounts of money like Bitfinex back in 2015. 608 00:31:16,763 --> 00:31:16,973 Mm-hmm. 609 00:31:17,273 --> 00:31:19,823 They, they, you know, they resolved it now, uh, they got, you know, 610 00:31:19,823 --> 00:31:22,733 they raised the money like long time ago, so it's long resolved. 611 00:31:22,733 --> 00:31:26,243 But, you know, at the time people were wondering, and more recently, I 612 00:31:26,243 --> 00:31:30,383 think last year or two, Binance had some hack and they came and talked 613 00:31:30,383 --> 00:31:34,313 to you, tried to talk to developers or miners, like, could you undo it? 614 00:31:34,553 --> 00:31:36,063 Like, I mean, not really, no. 615 00:31:36,243 --> 00:31:39,443 You know, I mean, just, just imagine the chaos if it was undone, 616 00:31:39,443 --> 00:31:40,623 you know, like the Yeah, yeah. 617 00:31:41,093 --> 00:31:42,383 Just the accounting costs. 618 00:31:42,413 --> 00:31:46,793 Like, 'cause other things could get replayed or double spent if something was 619 00:31:46,793 --> 00:31:49,403 redone, it's, it's not remotely worth it. 620 00:31:49,483 --> 00:31:49,863 No, no. 621 00:31:49,863 --> 00:31:50,813 So it doesn't make any 622 00:31:50,813 --> 00:31:51,173 sense. 623 00:31:51,563 --> 00:31:54,323 So, so it would mess with the incentive structures basically. 624 00:31:54,323 --> 00:31:54,683 Yeah. 625 00:31:54,983 --> 00:31:55,703 So that's one concern. 626 00:31:55,703 --> 00:31:56,873 And, and then the drive chain. 627 00:31:57,053 --> 00:32:00,353 So the, the original side chain is like merge mind and it, and it 628 00:32:00,353 --> 00:32:04,493 presents a compact proof to Bitcoin, so it adds a soft hook to bitcoin. 629 00:32:04,913 --> 00:32:06,023 This is the concept, right? 630 00:32:06,203 --> 00:32:06,293 Mm-hmm. 631 00:32:06,533 --> 00:32:12,473 To, to verify a proof that most of the merge mining work like that 632 00:32:12,473 --> 00:32:14,813 there's a certain amount of merge mine work on the side chain that 633 00:32:14,813 --> 00:32:16,523 approves this withdrawal request. 634 00:32:16,643 --> 00:32:16,763 Mm-hmm. 635 00:32:17,003 --> 00:32:21,173 So it doesn't verify the whole side chain, but it can see that, you know, there's 636 00:32:21,178 --> 00:32:25,583 a lot of merge mining that seems to be saying that the miners agree that this 637 00:32:25,583 --> 00:32:27,473 guy should be able to withdraw this coin. 638 00:32:27,923 --> 00:32:31,643 And then there's a time lock, kinda like with lightning, where somebody else 639 00:32:31,643 --> 00:32:35,483 can sort of provide an even more work, like a, a higher block height mm-hmm. 640 00:32:35,783 --> 00:32:39,173 With something that contradicts the first one and then they can cancel the withdraw. 641 00:32:39,623 --> 00:32:42,263 It's kinda like a reactive security, like lightning. 642 00:32:43,163 --> 00:32:44,993 So that was one version. 643 00:32:44,993 --> 00:32:50,993 And a drive chain is a simplified version, so it uh, has no fraud proofs. 644 00:32:51,083 --> 00:32:58,493 It just says, well, they make the peg out slow and so, If the users see 645 00:32:58,973 --> 00:33:03,263 coins being stolen by a big conspiracy of miners, they have three months or 646 00:33:03,263 --> 00:33:05,633 six months to do something about it. 647 00:33:05,813 --> 00:33:09,563 And if you think about it, the, the scenario is that there's a 648 00:33:09,563 --> 00:33:11,213 conspiracy between most of the miners. 649 00:33:11,453 --> 00:33:15,683 So now the users, you know, Bitcoin users and investors can't really get the 650 00:33:15,683 --> 00:33:19,013 miners to help prevent that because the miner's already in the conspiracy, right? 651 00:33:19,018 --> 00:33:19,073 Mm-hmm. 652 00:33:19,158 --> 00:33:25,283 So now Bitcoin basically has to undertake a U A S F like situation. 653 00:33:25,288 --> 00:33:25,393 Mm-hmm. 654 00:33:26,468 --> 00:33:30,458 To say, to like, sort of, you know, save that to the miners. 655 00:33:30,458 --> 00:33:34,868 Look, we're gonna block this, this theft, and if you try to do it 656 00:33:34,868 --> 00:33:36,938 anyway, you know, we changed the code. 657 00:33:36,938 --> 00:33:39,908 If you change that, if you do it anyway, you're gonna fork off 658 00:33:39,908 --> 00:33:42,638 the network and we're not gonna honor your coins, so don't do it. 659 00:33:43,178 --> 00:33:46,748 And that, that was kind of like what happened with the Segway activation. 660 00:33:46,898 --> 00:33:47,048 Mm-hmm. 661 00:33:47,288 --> 00:33:52,178 And it was a very dramatic and kind of scary thing with some, a fair bit of risk. 662 00:33:53,108 --> 00:33:54,698 So people don't want that kinda risk. 663 00:33:54,698 --> 00:33:55,028 Right. 664 00:33:56,078 --> 00:33:59,138 And so that's, that's the challenge for drive change. 665 00:33:59,138 --> 00:34:06,638 Like the, the sort of disincentive to steal is kind of, uh, an expensive 666 00:34:06,638 --> 00:34:08,618 exercise in risk terms mm-hmm. 667 00:34:08,863 --> 00:34:09,308 For the main chain. 668 00:34:09,308 --> 00:34:10,688 And people don't like risk on the main chain. 669 00:34:10,693 --> 00:34:12,068 So that's, that's the problem. 670 00:34:12,068 --> 00:34:16,358 I think, uh, like people wanting to opt into things is generally fine, but if 671 00:34:16,363 --> 00:34:18,128 it, if it creates a cost or a risk, then. 672 00:34:19,283 --> 00:34:20,483 It starts to be undesirable. 673 00:34:20,488 --> 00:34:20,603 Yeah. 674 00:34:21,173 --> 00:34:21,413 Sounds 675 00:34:21,413 --> 00:34:23,093 way easier to just not temper with it. 676 00:34:24,053 --> 00:34:25,823 Well, I mean it, it's interesting. 677 00:34:25,828 --> 00:34:30,143 I mean, I think it's always interesting to discuss ideas because by discussing 678 00:34:30,143 --> 00:34:37,163 them, people like invent new things or change their perspective. 679 00:34:37,583 --> 00:34:40,853 Because I think before, like the last few weeks of Drivechain 680 00:34:40,853 --> 00:34:46,883 discussion, people would've said they prefer hash rate controlled 681 00:34:46,883 --> 00:34:48,803 side chains to federate side chains. 682 00:34:48,803 --> 00:34:49,013 Mm-hmm. 683 00:34:49,883 --> 00:34:51,413 Liquid and rootstock. 684 00:34:51,503 --> 00:34:55,643 But I think if you ask them now, they'll change their, they will swap their view. 685 00:34:55,823 --> 00:34:59,633 So now they're like, actually the federated side chain is much less 686 00:34:59,633 --> 00:35:01,253 likely to create a problem for Bitcoin. 687 00:35:01,283 --> 00:35:05,423 And it's much less likely that the, you know, the collection of dozens 688 00:35:05,428 --> 00:35:10,043 of exchanges would have a conspiracy and try to steal the pegged coins. 689 00:35:10,133 --> 00:35:11,273 'cause we know who they are. 690 00:35:11,363 --> 00:35:11,453 Mm-hmm. 691 00:35:11,453 --> 00:35:13,553 I don't involve a massive conspiracy and there'd be legal 692 00:35:13,553 --> 00:35:14,663 problems and stuff like that. 693 00:35:14,663 --> 00:35:14,873 Right. 694 00:35:14,963 --> 00:35:18,503 Whereas if miners do it, it is kind of anonymous. 695 00:35:18,773 --> 00:35:19,583 Um mm-hmm. 696 00:35:20,693 --> 00:35:22,673 And it's more difficult to do anything about it. 697 00:35:22,823 --> 00:35:25,343 So you don't know who to blame, for example. 698 00:35:25,343 --> 00:35:25,673 Right. 699 00:35:25,793 --> 00:35:32,723 Um, so I think even the discussion changed the perception and like, 700 00:35:33,173 --> 00:35:37,943 it's instructed to look at what people don't like about it and why. 701 00:35:38,183 --> 00:35:40,103 'cause maybe there's a way to. 702 00:35:40,478 --> 00:35:42,008 Like make a safer mm-hmm. 703 00:35:42,248 --> 00:35:42,968 Type of supply chain. 704 00:35:43,628 --> 00:35:48,458 So, so how big a part of the discussion and how much influence does the 705 00:35:49,028 --> 00:35:54,278 infighting on Twitter have on Bitcoin's development, like the A T I Q people 706 00:35:54,278 --> 00:35:58,508 and all this stuff, uh, that we're talk, we talk about and like, uh, 707 00:35:58,718 --> 00:36:02,408 um, well, I mean, I think there's like a mixture of people so. 708 00:36:02,768 --> 00:36:06,518 You know, some people will just react, like, don't change Bitcoin. 709 00:36:06,518 --> 00:36:08,408 It's like so morph as a philosophical, right? 710 00:36:08,408 --> 00:36:08,798 Like Yeah. 711 00:36:08,858 --> 00:36:12,338 Based on conservative, uh, you know, well, I mean, it's, it's true actually. 712 00:36:12,338 --> 00:36:19,418 I, I, uh, went to some kind of like private meeting, like a bunch of 713 00:36:19,423 --> 00:36:23,888 like investors and a few tech people just like general discussion for a 714 00:36:23,888 --> 00:36:25,988 weekend kind of thing some years ago. 715 00:36:26,528 --> 00:36:32,408 And like a question I asked for the, in like Bitcoin holder investor or fund 716 00:36:32,408 --> 00:36:36,638 manager type of people is like, well, what features would you value most? 717 00:36:36,878 --> 00:36:37,058 Mm-hmm. 718 00:36:37,358 --> 00:36:40,818 From the technical side for Bitcoin? 719 00:36:41,378 --> 00:36:44,633 And their answer was surprising, which was like, Just don't break it. 720 00:36:44,638 --> 00:36:44,873 Yeah. 721 00:36:44,878 --> 00:36:45,263 Yeah. 722 00:36:45,293 --> 00:36:46,343 That was the number one feature. 723 00:36:46,343 --> 00:36:46,673 Right. 724 00:36:47,063 --> 00:36:48,173 And so that's very interesting. 725 00:36:48,173 --> 00:36:48,353 Right. 726 00:36:48,353 --> 00:36:50,633 'cause like they didn't even care about lightning actually. 727 00:36:50,638 --> 00:36:52,823 It's like, it is like payments. 728 00:36:52,883 --> 00:36:53,993 No, they care about investment. 729 00:36:54,053 --> 00:36:54,983 Oh, that's good to hear. 730 00:36:55,403 --> 00:36:58,043 So like if, if there's something like about key management or vaults 731 00:36:58,048 --> 00:37:01,523 like, okay, like now I'm listening, but it's like about micropayments, 732 00:37:01,523 --> 00:37:02,393 I don't really care about it. 733 00:37:02,753 --> 00:37:08,093 So, no, I think like really you want a bit of both because, you know, 734 00:37:08,093 --> 00:37:11,813 ultimately the value proposition of Bitcoin is the ability to, you know, 735 00:37:11,813 --> 00:37:13,463 do the censorship resistant payments. 736 00:37:13,553 --> 00:37:15,863 And we can get more of those by using something like lightning. 737 00:37:15,863 --> 00:37:21,263 So if we can make lightning better, that also helps the kind of value proposition. 738 00:37:21,293 --> 00:37:21,473 Mm-hmm. 739 00:37:21,953 --> 00:37:25,793 And it also frees up space for cold storage, which is good too. 740 00:37:25,883 --> 00:37:26,273 So, 741 00:37:27,083 --> 00:37:27,323 yeah. 742 00:37:27,383 --> 00:37:32,288 Alright, so, so what's this, uh, This unavoidable bug that is in 743 00:37:32,288 --> 00:37:36,638 the code that needs to be fixed for the hard fork in like 2050 or 2090. 744 00:37:36,638 --> 00:37:38,338 Or, I mean, what is that called? 745 00:37:38,618 --> 00:37:42,608 I, I for, I think the name escapes 6 21 0 6. 746 00:37:42,608 --> 00:37:42,758 Yeah. 747 00:37:42,763 --> 00:37:43,028 Yeah. 748 00:37:43,028 --> 00:37:43,328 That's the 749 00:37:43,328 --> 00:37:43,568 one. 750 00:37:44,138 --> 00:37:49,778 Uh, yeah, I think, I think it's kind of like, you know, the year 2000 bug. 751 00:37:50,138 --> 00:37:50,228 Yeah. 752 00:37:50,228 --> 00:37:51,518 Like some counter wraps around. 753 00:37:51,518 --> 00:37:54,728 'cause it's a 31, it's a 32 sign, 32 bit integer. 754 00:37:54,728 --> 00:37:55,028 Right. 755 00:37:55,033 --> 00:37:59,738 So, so like, but I don't think it's an issue because it's like, you know, 756 00:37:59,798 --> 00:38:04,598 so many decades away that you can just make a technical hard fork that was 757 00:38:04,598 --> 00:38:07,868 fixed, you know, like five decades before it could become an issue. 758 00:38:08,288 --> 00:38:11,798 And then nobody's running like five decades old code and nobody notices. 759 00:38:11,798 --> 00:38:12,098 Right. 760 00:38:12,098 --> 00:38:12,788 Or something like that. 761 00:38:12,788 --> 00:38:14,078 So think it's very simple to fix. 762 00:38:14,228 --> 00:38:14,648 Okay. 763 00:38:15,128 --> 00:38:18,218 But it's like a technical curiosity that like, whoa, we can't fix that without, 764 00:38:18,553 --> 00:38:18,818 okay. 765 00:38:19,238 --> 00:38:22,148 So everyone's sort of relying that we will fix that just 766 00:38:22,148 --> 00:38:24,248 because the sheer amount of time 767 00:38:24,278 --> 00:38:25,178 that we have to fix it. 768 00:38:25,568 --> 00:38:29,378 I mean, I think, I think the thing is if you make some in pop change, 769 00:38:29,888 --> 00:38:31,148 It's very hard to coordinate that. 770 00:38:31,148 --> 00:38:33,698 Everybody would upgrade and then nobody would accidentally like get 771 00:38:33,698 --> 00:38:35,138 left off the network or something. 772 00:38:35,228 --> 00:38:38,918 But you know, if it's coming in like a hundred years, okay. 773 00:38:38,918 --> 00:38:40,508 Like they're not even in a rush to fix it. 774 00:38:40,513 --> 00:38:40,838 Right. 775 00:38:40,838 --> 00:38:46,628 Because you know, as long as you can fix it so far ahead that it's 776 00:38:46,633 --> 00:38:49,358 implausible, anybody would still be running that old software. 777 00:38:49,718 --> 00:38:49,838 Mm-hmm. 778 00:38:50,078 --> 00:38:51,308 Then it's pretty easy to fix. 779 00:38:52,053 --> 00:38:53,963 So how are you enjoying this episode so far? 780 00:38:54,413 --> 00:38:57,433 Before we dive back in, first a little bit about our sponsors. 781 00:38:58,003 --> 00:38:59,463 First up, Wasabi Wallet. 782 00:38:59,743 --> 00:39:03,183 The privacy by default, open source, non custodial bitcoin 783 00:39:03,183 --> 00:39:04,873 wallet with CoinJoin built in. 784 00:39:05,463 --> 00:39:09,513 It's the easy to use, comprehensive, affordable way to make your coins private. 785 00:39:10,023 --> 00:39:13,013 And the best part is, they've been making huge improvements to the app. 786 00:39:13,353 --> 00:39:16,293 They're really focusing on the user experience, adding advanced 787 00:39:16,423 --> 00:39:17,633 features for power users. 788 00:39:17,633 --> 00:39:18,943 They just keep getting better. 789 00:39:19,498 --> 00:39:22,958 You send your coins to your wasabi wallet and they get combined with loads of 790 00:39:22,958 --> 00:39:27,088 other coins using the wabi sabi protocol so they're private on the other end. 791 00:39:27,628 --> 00:39:31,118 Your tracks are covered so you can work on expanding your freedom footprint 792 00:39:31,288 --> 00:39:32,968 without worrying about your privacy. 793 00:39:33,828 --> 00:39:36,028 So check out wasabiwallet. 794 00:39:36,028 --> 00:39:37,908 io and download wasabi today. 795 00:39:38,338 --> 00:39:42,718 Next up, Orange Pill app, the bitcoin social layer app for iOS and Android where 796 00:39:42,718 --> 00:39:44,478 you can stack friends who stack sats. 797 00:39:45,118 --> 00:39:47,988 You can connect with your favorite Bitcoiners on the app, make local 798 00:39:47,988 --> 00:39:50,968 connections, and even connect with Bitcoiners around the world. 799 00:39:51,528 --> 00:39:53,558 And a big feature on the Orange Pill app is Vents. 800 00:39:54,098 --> 00:39:57,448 You can see what's going on in your area and connect with Bitcoiners around you. 801 00:39:57,958 --> 00:40:00,368 I've been to multiple OrangePill app events and they brought 802 00:40:00,368 --> 00:40:02,258 Bitcoiners together from all over. 803 00:40:02,898 --> 00:40:04,908 The best part is, you know it's high signal. 804 00:40:04,938 --> 00:40:07,938 There's no spam on OrangePill app because everyone pays to be there. 805 00:40:08,018 --> 00:40:09,428 It's just 3 a month. 806 00:40:09,908 --> 00:40:12,888 So download OrangePill app on Apple or Android and get connected 807 00:40:12,908 --> 00:40:14,398 to the Bitcoin social layer. 808 00:40:14,598 --> 00:40:17,098 Next up, our new sponsor, the Bitcoin Way. 809 00:40:17,688 --> 00:40:20,988 Their mission is to onboard, educate, and remove barriers to 810 00:40:20,988 --> 00:40:22,588 taking self custody of your bitcoin. 811 00:40:23,158 --> 00:40:27,468 They cover everything from cold wallets to nodes, no KYC bitcoin purchases, 812 00:40:27,518 --> 00:40:29,928 inheritance planning, payments, and more. 813 00:40:30,468 --> 00:40:33,278 Whether you're new to bitcoin or you're an experienced bitcoiner looking to 814 00:40:33,278 --> 00:40:37,128 expand your freedom footprint, or you know someone who this sounds perfect for, 815 00:40:37,518 --> 00:40:39,398 the bitcoin way has something for you. 816 00:40:40,088 --> 00:40:43,588 They have a skilled team, well versed in the Bitcoin space, and their goal is to 817 00:40:43,588 --> 00:40:47,478 make all the complexities of Bitcoin as straightforward as possible for everyone. 818 00:40:48,038 --> 00:40:50,538 And the best part is you can get started with a free 30 819 00:40:50,538 --> 00:40:51,728 minute call with their team. 820 00:40:52,258 --> 00:40:53,768 Go to thebitcoinway. 821 00:40:53,798 --> 00:40:56,028 com slash contact for more info. 822 00:40:56,498 --> 00:40:57,528 Alright back to it. 823 00:40:57,558 --> 00:40:59,298 Don't forget to like, subscribe, and brush your teeth. 824 00:41:13,702 --> 00:41:15,652 So, so how is Liquid doing? 825 00:41:15,652 --> 00:41:17,392 Like how is liquid adoption doing? 826 00:41:17,392 --> 00:41:20,062 Like how, how, what's the developments like? 827 00:41:20,062 --> 00:41:22,102 What, what do you see there and what do you 828 00:41:22,107 --> 00:41:23,062 predict in the future? 829 00:41:23,122 --> 00:41:27,442 Yeah, so I mean, unlike, uh, it's, it's mostly kind of organic. 830 00:41:27,442 --> 00:41:30,532 So I guess like a little bit analogous to Lightning. 831 00:41:30,532 --> 00:41:32,542 There are different types of startups involved, right? 832 00:41:32,542 --> 00:41:36,712 So people who are building like the Lightning protocol and then the LSPs 833 00:41:36,717 --> 00:41:39,502 and then, you know, applications and games and things like that. 834 00:41:39,502 --> 00:41:42,742 So there's that kind of thing happening with liquid, with multiple startups 835 00:41:42,742 --> 00:41:47,362 building on it and you know, some of them more organic and just, you, you never hear 836 00:41:47,362 --> 00:41:51,232 about them and then they have a products, nobody new and it's in market and now 837 00:41:51,232 --> 00:41:52,642 people are talking about it and using it. 838 00:41:52,762 --> 00:41:55,732 So a number of things like that have happened over the last year. 839 00:41:55,732 --> 00:41:59,422 So, I mean, one is, uh, site swap, which is mm-hmm a liquid 840 00:41:59,422 --> 00:42:08,393 wallet, uh, and um, a kind of, uh, non-custodial central order book. 841 00:42:09,262 --> 00:42:10,342 So you can. 842 00:42:11,647 --> 00:42:15,577 From your wallet, you can, uh, place a limit order to buy 843 00:42:15,577 --> 00:42:18,487 Bitcoin, like below this price. 844 00:42:18,967 --> 00:42:22,627 And you, you sort of sign part of the transaction and you give 845 00:42:22,632 --> 00:42:24,727 it to the server through the app. 846 00:42:25,147 --> 00:42:30,817 And now, um, you can switch your phone off for your desktop app or what have 847 00:42:30,817 --> 00:42:34,477 you, and somebody can come along and decide they wanna sell it to you. 848 00:42:35,257 --> 00:42:39,127 And they'll give their partly signed part to the server, and a server just 849 00:42:39,132 --> 00:42:43,657 combines them, takes its commission and sends it to liquid chain to sell. 850 00:42:44,257 --> 00:42:46,957 And it's a kind of a trustless limit order. 851 00:42:48,097 --> 00:42:55,027 So it's a way to do trading or buying or selling without custodial risk. 852 00:42:55,387 --> 00:42:56,977 And actually they're integrating. 853 00:42:57,832 --> 00:42:59,092 Hardware wallet support. 854 00:42:59,092 --> 00:43:03,202 So you could even, you know, you could use a web experience to like click on the 855 00:43:03,202 --> 00:43:07,282 prices you want and you scan a QR code and then you approve the transaction on your 856 00:43:07,287 --> 00:43:10,522 hardware wallet saying, you know, yeah, I wanna buy Bitcoin at that price, and 857 00:43:10,522 --> 00:43:15,352 I have some liquid tether in my hardware wallet and when it, when it transact. 858 00:43:15,352 --> 00:43:18,442 So basically funds move between two hard or wallets. 859 00:43:18,922 --> 00:43:22,642 So it's an extremely safe way to do trade without the kind of, you 860 00:43:22,647 --> 00:43:27,412 know, tgo, uh, F G X, uh, quadri, all that kind of exchange custody risk. 861 00:43:28,012 --> 00:43:29,272 So that's very interesting. 862 00:43:29,452 --> 00:43:35,812 And you know, they even have, um, so on liquid, there are two types of assets. 863 00:43:35,812 --> 00:43:38,302 There are like liquid Bitcoin and liquid tether things that are 864 00:43:38,302 --> 00:43:40,072 just peer-to-peer transferable. 865 00:43:40,072 --> 00:43:46,522 And then there are sort of, there's an option to make an asset, a security, 866 00:43:46,582 --> 00:43:49,432 it's called amp, uh, a managed asset. 867 00:43:49,432 --> 00:43:57,592 And so, um, The, the thing there is you can't, like, receive it or send it to 868 00:43:57,592 --> 00:44:00,442 somebody who is not like whitelisted. 869 00:44:00,952 --> 00:44:03,562 And a way you get whitelist is your role, like, uh, with an 870 00:44:03,562 --> 00:44:04,552 exchange or something, right? 871 00:44:04,612 --> 00:44:04,732 Mm-hmm. 872 00:44:05,462 --> 00:44:09,692 so yeah, the, the, the way that you, you interact with it is, is like that. 873 00:44:09,692 --> 00:44:13,502 But once you are whitelisted, it's curious because now you are transacting 874 00:44:13,502 --> 00:44:16,592 something which is like a licensed registered security, but you're 875 00:44:16,592 --> 00:44:18,452 transacting in a very pi feel, right? 876 00:44:18,457 --> 00:44:24,542 Like, You know, send somebody 100th of a share as a gift or they can like, 877 00:44:24,542 --> 00:44:27,392 you know, give me 10 euros for it in person, I can send it to 'em or I 878 00:44:27,392 --> 00:44:30,122 can like agree an O OTC price mm-hmm. 879 00:44:30,392 --> 00:44:31,562 And swap it with side swap. 880 00:44:31,562 --> 00:44:35,792 Or I can put it on a market, on side swap all in a sort permissionless way, 881 00:44:36,302 --> 00:44:39,062 but still like compliant with securities laws 'cause of the white listing. 882 00:44:39,122 --> 00:44:43,742 So it's a kind of novel kind of merge of unlikely things. 883 00:44:43,742 --> 00:44:44,042 Right. 884 00:44:44,042 --> 00:44:47,372 Which feels like very permissionless, but like behind the scenes permissions. 885 00:44:47,372 --> 00:44:50,492 And it's very simple from the blockchain, like from a liquid blockchain point of 886 00:44:50,492 --> 00:44:52,412 view because all it sees as a multisig. 887 00:44:53,432 --> 00:44:57,512 But, but, but all these things aren't, they like the, these are sort of bridges 888 00:44:57,512 --> 00:44:58,712 between the Bitcoin world and the 889 00:44:58,712 --> 00:44:59,852 fiat world as I see. 890 00:44:59,852 --> 00:45:00,002 Yeah. 891 00:45:00,002 --> 00:45:03,002 That one is, I mean another, another example is, I mean there are, there 892 00:45:03,002 --> 00:45:06,782 are lots of, there are some like startup derived things and there are 893 00:45:06,782 --> 00:45:08,582 some user behavior derived things. 894 00:45:08,582 --> 00:45:12,542 So one user behavior derived thing is dollar cost averaging. 895 00:45:12,542 --> 00:45:16,982 So we came across users who were, uh, dollar cost averaging on liquid. 896 00:45:17,507 --> 00:45:18,887 Because the fees are low. 897 00:45:18,917 --> 00:45:19,247 Mm-hmm. 898 00:45:19,487 --> 00:45:22,067 And if they're, you know, buying $5 at a time, like if you withdraw from 899 00:45:22,067 --> 00:45:23,357 an exchange, is expensive, right? 900 00:45:23,387 --> 00:45:23,477 Mm-hmm. 901 00:45:23,807 --> 00:45:26,537 And so their dollar cost averaging on liquid and then they'll get to a, to a 902 00:45:26,537 --> 00:45:29,807 target, you know, like 10th of a Bitcoin or whatever the threshold is, and they'll, 903 00:45:30,407 --> 00:45:33,797 they'll take it off onto cold storage on the main chain and they'll do it again. 904 00:45:33,857 --> 00:45:39,317 So it's a kind of way to do something frequently and like amortize 905 00:45:39,322 --> 00:45:41,777 the cost of going to A U T X A. 906 00:45:42,347 --> 00:45:43,787 So that's one kind of use case. 907 00:45:43,787 --> 00:45:48,452 And the other one was the, um, The bolts, like liquid atomic swaps, so 908 00:45:48,482 --> 00:45:52,322 sort of connecting liquid and lightning, which was also like organic, right? 909 00:45:53,642 --> 00:45:56,132 I mean, a startup decided they had a problem and like within a 910 00:45:56,132 --> 00:45:57,392 week or two they had a solution. 911 00:45:57,482 --> 00:45:57,872 So. 912 00:45:58,032 --> 00:45:58,112 Hmm. 913 00:45:58,532 --> 00:45:59,822 It's quite interesting things. 914 00:45:59,912 --> 00:46:06,122 Um, and, you know, they're continuing sort of people issuing different assets on it. 915 00:46:07,142 --> 00:46:10,322 Um, more wallets, adding liquid support. 916 00:46:10,322 --> 00:46:13,502 So there's a new one that was announced at this conference called, uh, wbe, 917 00:46:13,532 --> 00:46:16,352 which is a kind of a super app. 918 00:46:16,352 --> 00:46:20,282 So it's a Bitcoin wallet and it's a liquid wallet and it's a root stock wallet. 919 00:46:20,287 --> 00:46:20,312 Mm-hmm. 920 00:46:20,972 --> 00:46:22,472 And I think they're adding lightning too. 921 00:46:22,472 --> 00:46:27,092 So it's kind of all Bitcoin related layer twos and, and maintain in a single wallet. 922 00:46:27,632 --> 00:46:29,672 Uh, green is a bit like that because it has. 923 00:46:30,872 --> 00:46:34,802 You know, it has liquid Bitcoin and Bitcoin and more recently we have the 924 00:46:34,802 --> 00:46:36,992 beta integration of lightning as well. 925 00:46:36,992 --> 00:46:38,342 So kind of all three. 926 00:46:38,522 --> 00:46:38,612 Mm-hmm. 927 00:46:38,882 --> 00:46:40,772 But the wall be super app is even more, right? 928 00:46:40,772 --> 00:46:43,682 'cause it includes root stock and plans to go between them. 929 00:46:44,102 --> 00:46:48,992 But, but all of these, these things, like do they, do they 930 00:46:48,992 --> 00:46:51,152 exist post hyperbitcoinization? 931 00:46:51,182 --> 00:46:55,082 Like if in a, in a fully colonized world, is there a use 932 00:46:55,082 --> 00:46:56,762 case for these things still? 933 00:46:57,002 --> 00:46:58,352 Uh, yeah, potentially. 934 00:46:58,352 --> 00:47:05,132 I mean, I think that, you know, the layer twos are sort of 935 00:47:05,137 --> 00:47:07,682 a bit like T C P I P, right? 936 00:47:07,682 --> 00:47:10,412 So they're sort of specialized protocols on top for different, 937 00:47:10,412 --> 00:47:11,552 like application domains. 938 00:47:11,557 --> 00:47:11,762 Mm-hmm. 939 00:47:12,092 --> 00:47:14,792 So I think, you know, if, if lightning is specialized for retail 940 00:47:14,792 --> 00:47:19,202 payments, then liquid is specialized for like maybe trading has some 941 00:47:19,207 --> 00:47:22,292 additional confidentiality because of confidential transactions. 942 00:47:22,802 --> 00:47:26,672 And I think another configuration that might come about in the future, I. 943 00:47:27,347 --> 00:47:31,127 Is because Core Lightning works on top of liquid as well, so you can 944 00:47:31,127 --> 00:47:36,212 have like liquid Bitcoin channels and then instead of rebalancing, Bitcoin 945 00:47:36,212 --> 00:47:42,152 lightning channels with liquid, you can have liquid Bitcoin channels, right? 946 00:47:42,152 --> 00:47:42,242 Mm-hmm. 947 00:47:42,242 --> 00:47:48,992 And so, you know, for the risk, if, if the amounts are that are involved 948 00:47:48,997 --> 00:47:52,892 in lightning are very retail, like not, not huge amounts of money, right? 949 00:47:52,892 --> 00:47:56,762 Like maybe, you know, the phone is more expensive than the, than the 950 00:47:56,792 --> 00:47:58,472 Bitcoin on it kind of situation. 951 00:47:58,562 --> 00:47:58,742 Yeah. 952 00:47:58,892 --> 00:48:05,852 Then maybe it makes a good deal of sense to anchor lightning channels in liquid, 953 00:48:05,852 --> 00:48:09,362 which is kinda layer 1.5 and then that frees up even more space from the main 954 00:48:09,367 --> 00:48:13,922 chain for cold storage because you don't get all of the lightning, you know, 955 00:48:13,922 --> 00:48:15,662 transaction anchors and stuff like that. 956 00:48:15,722 --> 00:48:20,912 And I think liquid, you know, liquid's, uh, capacity is sort 957 00:48:20,912 --> 00:48:22,562 of similar to bitcoins because. 958 00:48:23,457 --> 00:48:25,367 You know, the blocks are 10 times as fast. 959 00:48:25,397 --> 00:48:28,337 'cause they're every minute they're the same size, but the confidential 960 00:48:28,337 --> 00:48:31,637 transactions are about 10 times bigger 'cause of all the mm-hmm. 961 00:48:31,817 --> 00:48:32,987 Uh, crypto stuff. 962 00:48:33,077 --> 00:48:39,077 Um, but, you know, I think that would be, uh, an interesting trade off and 963 00:48:39,077 --> 00:48:44,057 the sort of thing that somebody might, you know, like s did, somebody might 964 00:48:44,057 --> 00:48:49,247 adopt and, you know, a, a future prolonged fee spike or something. 965 00:48:49,247 --> 00:48:49,577 Right. 966 00:48:50,467 --> 00:48:55,867 Yeah, you, you, your panel about, uh, when 100 k, you know, the nice provocative, 967 00:48:55,927 --> 00:49:01,897 uh, title, lots of bullish energy in there in terms of, uh, the timeframe and, uh, 968 00:49:01,927 --> 00:49:03,787 when the fiat price is going to go up. 969 00:49:03,787 --> 00:49:07,387 But what do you see at the moment as the biggest long-term threat to 970 00:49:07,387 --> 00:49:07,597 bitcoin? 971 00:49:09,607 --> 00:49:11,677 Um, I'm not sure. 972 00:49:11,677 --> 00:49:18,907 I mean, you know, for people who were involved, you know, 20 13, 973 00:49:18,907 --> 00:49:23,227 14, 15, you know, banks didn't want to hear about Bitcoin. 974 00:49:23,232 --> 00:49:26,737 Like if, if you were a business development person since talk to banks, 975 00:49:26,737 --> 00:49:29,647 they would tell you before you go into the room, don't use the word Bitcoin, right? 976 00:49:29,647 --> 00:49:29,927 Yeah. 977 00:49:30,097 --> 00:49:33,427 And that all changed, you know, then every bank on the planet had 978 00:49:33,427 --> 00:49:35,317 a blockchain r and d lab, right? 979 00:49:35,387 --> 00:49:35,807 Mm-hmm. 980 00:49:35,892 --> 00:49:40,507 And, you know, come forward a few more years and they're all vying to provide 981 00:49:40,747 --> 00:49:42,607 Bitcoin related financial products. 982 00:49:42,667 --> 00:49:47,767 And like, so I think in that same kind of timeframe, like 2013 to 2015, a lot 983 00:49:47,767 --> 00:49:53,857 of people were quite worried and even before about, you know, regulatory bans 984 00:49:53,862 --> 00:49:57,817 like, you know, China bans Bitcoin, but like thinking well maybe Europe 985 00:49:57,817 --> 00:50:02,767 and the US or also ban Bitcoin and that, that would be a risk, right? 986 00:50:02,767 --> 00:50:03,637 But I think I. 987 00:50:04,747 --> 00:50:08,527 You know, that risk has receded a lot because, you know, the 988 00:50:08,527 --> 00:50:12,487 regulators have regularized, you know, Bitcoin is property legally. 989 00:50:13,297 --> 00:50:17,137 Um, I think a lot of technical risk has receded, like, you know, Bitcoin's 990 00:50:17,137 --> 00:50:18,607 quality assurance has improved. 991 00:50:18,612 --> 00:50:21,787 The re, you know, the, the changes have become more conservative and it got 992 00:50:21,787 --> 00:50:27,487 through to block size wars and showed that, you know, the investors ultimately 993 00:50:27,877 --> 00:50:33,157 were able to enforce immutability despite like, you know, a lot, a big array of 994 00:50:33,157 --> 00:50:37,627 financial interests, wanting to change it for like, you know, uh, the economic 995 00:50:37,627 --> 00:50:40,027 benefit of startups, I guess ultimately. 996 00:50:40,567 --> 00:50:45,427 Um, so I'm not sure, like, I think the risks have receded on, on most 997 00:50:45,427 --> 00:50:51,442 fronts, so I'm not really seeing like, You know, a big threat. 998 00:50:52,192 --> 00:50:53,992 Um, so I'm not sure. 999 00:50:54,082 --> 00:50:59,122 Yeah, it seems, it seems like, you know, I mean, of course, uh, a different 1000 00:50:59,122 --> 00:51:03,562 kind of threat I think, or risk could be that Bitcoin succeeds, but 1001 00:51:05,032 --> 00:51:12,832 emphasizing the investment asset use case and losing some sort of momentum 1002 00:51:12,862 --> 00:51:16,342 on various censorship resistant mm-hmm. 1003 00:51:16,582 --> 00:51:17,752 Soft ownership of keys. 1004 00:51:18,292 --> 00:51:23,932 And I do think it's like potentially a problem if too big a proportion 1005 00:51:23,932 --> 00:51:29,182 of Bitcoin's economic base is held by ETFs with like mm-hmm. 1006 00:51:29,452 --> 00:51:32,812 Corporate lawyers and fund managers reduce duties and stuff like that. 1007 00:51:32,812 --> 00:51:36,532 So, you know, I mean, ultimately the value is. 1008 00:51:37,457 --> 00:51:41,047 The, the use case, like the digital gold, the cold storage, 1009 00:51:41,527 --> 00:51:45,127 the ability to spend, that's the thing that banks can't compete with. 1010 00:51:45,397 --> 00:51:49,207 So, you know, the banks offering financial products is kind of 1011 00:51:49,207 --> 00:51:54,367 like, you know, VCs buying, or investors buying internet stocks. 1012 00:51:54,397 --> 00:51:56,887 'cause they thought mm-hmm the internet, the permissionless chaos 1013 00:51:56,887 --> 00:51:58,357 of the internet would be popular. 1014 00:51:58,867 --> 00:52:01,447 You know, they may not have liked the permissionless chaos, but they could 1015 00:52:01,447 --> 00:52:02,527 see they could make money from it. 1016 00:52:02,527 --> 00:52:02,797 Right? 1017 00:52:02,797 --> 00:52:06,157 So you don't want the guys that are writing a trend to. 1018 00:52:07,012 --> 00:52:10,102 Like break the trend or like erode the permission. 1019 00:52:10,552 --> 00:52:10,822 Right. 1020 00:52:11,122 --> 00:52:14,302 But this is a slightly more philosophical question. 1021 00:52:14,302 --> 00:52:17,542 Does we, can institutions actually own Bitcoin though? 1022 00:52:17,542 --> 00:52:23,032 Because like, not your case, not your coins and custodial, like the real 1023 00:52:23,032 --> 00:52:29,062 possessor of the Bitcoins is some guy or some guys with a multisig thing. 1024 00:52:29,062 --> 00:52:29,422 Yeah. 1025 00:52:29,872 --> 00:52:34,012 So, so how, how do you see that, like the relationship with between 1026 00:52:34,012 --> 00:52:35,872 ownership and possession in the future? 1027 00:52:35,877 --> 00:52:41,092 And like is, is Bitcoin, is owning Bitcoin more than just keeping a secret? 1028 00:52:41,872 --> 00:52:43,882 Like how do you see 1029 00:52:43,882 --> 00:52:44,312 that coming up? 1030 00:52:44,312 --> 00:52:49,132 I mean, certainly an indirect and more fragile ownership claim, right? 1031 00:52:49,137 --> 00:52:49,232 Yeah. 1032 00:52:49,252 --> 00:52:55,612 So, you know, if you, if you assume there are, um, very much more 1033 00:52:55,612 --> 00:53:01,222 credible like custodians, like, I mean already Fidelity is a, I think 1034 00:53:01,222 --> 00:53:03,772 has a custodian service that's probably the one of the highest tier. 1035 00:53:03,772 --> 00:53:05,482 But there are other like fairly high tier. 1036 00:53:06,547 --> 00:53:09,487 Uh, established financial players and provide Bitcoin custody 1037 00:53:09,487 --> 00:53:12,037 for a fee to corporations, but it's still indirect, right? 1038 00:53:12,037 --> 00:53:15,877 Because, you know, if you are an individual and you can get access if they 1039 00:53:16,027 --> 00:53:20,497 sell to individuals, or you're a company and something happens, like a court makes 1040 00:53:20,502 --> 00:53:24,787 a judgment against you, or law enforcement makes a judgment against you, then the 1041 00:53:24,787 --> 00:53:26,257 custodian doesn't listen to you anymore. 1042 00:53:26,317 --> 00:53:27,937 They listen to the third party. 1043 00:53:27,937 --> 00:53:27,938 Yeah. 1044 00:53:27,943 --> 00:53:28,027 Yeah. 1045 00:53:28,027 --> 00:53:28,867 It freezes your assets. 1046 00:53:28,867 --> 00:53:29,077 Right? 1047 00:53:29,077 --> 00:53:31,327 So then well, did you really own them? 1048 00:53:31,357 --> 00:53:31,717 Mm-hmm. 1049 00:53:31,962 --> 00:53:36,907 Well, kind of, you, you know, you, you had a a right to request them, which 1050 00:53:36,907 --> 00:53:41,587 they have this question to refuse if there's some overriding claim, right? 1051 00:53:41,587 --> 00:53:44,497 So yeah, you don't really have full possession of them anymore. 1052 00:53:44,497 --> 00:53:45,547 That's, that's the, 1053 00:53:45,552 --> 00:53:45,907 the risk. 1054 00:53:45,907 --> 00:53:46,087 Yeah. 1055 00:53:46,087 --> 00:53:51,307 And, and, and also if, if a custodian feels threatened by a government or 1056 00:53:51,307 --> 00:53:56,707 whatever, uh, I mean the, the one guy or the three out of five guys can, can just 1057 00:53:57,457 --> 00:54:01,887 bus off and go somewhere else and live their lives without them ever knowing. 1058 00:54:03,262 --> 00:54:09,532 Yeah, I mean, I guess the, um, probably the big custodians have, 1059 00:54:10,612 --> 00:54:15,892 you know, because they are custodying other things which are hard to undo. 1060 00:54:16,012 --> 00:54:16,162 Mm-hmm. 1061 00:54:16,402 --> 00:54:20,422 Like maybe artwork or like physical vaults for valuables. 1062 00:54:20,427 --> 00:54:27,202 And they have developed over, you know, centuries, like quite good, uh, what 1063 00:54:27,202 --> 00:54:30,352 do you call it, like cross checks and governance and procedures to make sure 1064 00:54:30,352 --> 00:54:34,732 that it's difficult for like, A small group of insiders who get corrupt 'cause 1065 00:54:34,732 --> 00:54:37,852 it, 'cause banks do have like tellers that go rogue and like Yeah, yeah. 1066 00:54:37,882 --> 00:54:41,542 People that try to steal, so they try to make a lot of, uh, cross checks and 1067 00:54:41,547 --> 00:54:45,892 controls in there to catch it early or to prevent it without like a huge 1068 00:54:46,072 --> 00:54:47,302 collusion or something like that. 1069 00:54:47,992 --> 00:54:52,492 Still, if, if this, um, you know, catch catchup effect thing 1070 00:54:52,492 --> 00:54:55,042 happens and Bitcoin a hundred Xs. 1071 00:54:55,102 --> 00:54:55,522 Yeah. 1072 00:54:55,582 --> 00:54:59,152 Like, so all of a sudden those 10 bitcoins are worth more than that. 1073 00:54:59,542 --> 00:54:59,842 Right. 1074 00:54:59,842 --> 00:55:01,462 Mona Lisa type pen look. 1075 00:55:01,492 --> 00:55:05,392 Well, I mean that's, that's a case for, for like the vault situ, I 1076 00:55:05,392 --> 00:55:09,412 mean the, the smart contract kinda script vault, which is that, you 1077 00:55:09,412 --> 00:55:11,332 know, the day-to-day operations. 1078 00:55:12,137 --> 00:55:16,217 The people operationally in control, you know, can DeVol and then 1079 00:55:16,307 --> 00:55:20,447 spend money out of the devolt or maybe manage a kinda warm wallet. 1080 00:55:20,807 --> 00:55:20,957 Mm-hmm. 1081 00:55:21,317 --> 00:55:25,967 But you know, there will be other people, a much wide array of people potentially 1082 00:55:25,967 --> 00:55:29,657 including people with coins in the custody who can like blow the whistle, 1083 00:55:29,657 --> 00:55:33,707 like, Hey, these coins are moving and nobody approved them and have like a 1084 00:55:33,707 --> 00:55:35,387 week's time or something to cancel it. 1085 00:55:35,392 --> 00:55:35,517 Mm-hmm. 1086 00:55:35,602 --> 00:55:36,407 And send it. 1087 00:55:36,932 --> 00:55:40,112 You know, somewhere much colder, which is like maybe extremely inconvenient to 1088 00:55:40,112 --> 00:55:47,882 access and you know, that that would be impractical for a day-to-day service, but 1089 00:55:47,882 --> 00:55:49,772 is a fallback if something weird happens. 1090 00:55:49,772 --> 00:55:50,042 Right. 1091 00:55:50,462 --> 00:55:51,482 But, but that's not in 1092 00:55:51,482 --> 00:55:52,262 place now. 1093 00:55:52,267 --> 00:55:53,822 Like No, I, it isn't. 1094 00:55:53,882 --> 00:55:57,632 I mean, but I think that's one of the reasons you, we probably should try 1095 00:55:57,632 --> 00:56:02,282 to build them, like either using the pre-sign transactions or with some 1096 00:56:02,282 --> 00:56:05,132 kind of vol, I mean, some kind of covenant technology to build them. 1097 00:56:05,342 --> 00:56:09,482 But we, as in, well, I mean like people who build stuff like 1098 00:56:09,482 --> 00:56:11,852 startups, technologists, companies. 1099 00:56:11,852 --> 00:56:12,182 Yeah. 1100 00:56:12,272 --> 00:56:13,532 So there's a mar Yeah. 1101 00:56:13,622 --> 00:56:15,782 You foresee a market for that, those kind of 1102 00:56:16,212 --> 00:56:16,292 services. 1103 00:56:16,292 --> 00:56:19,622 Well, I mean, as, as somebody who's like, you know, been involved in like the 1104 00:56:19,622 --> 00:56:23,912 technical part of custody and thinking, so if you actually do something, then 1105 00:56:23,912 --> 00:56:27,482 you start to think much more clearly and pragmatically about the risks. 1106 00:56:27,482 --> 00:56:27,542 Yeah. 1107 00:56:28,067 --> 00:56:31,457 You know, so if you think, even on a personal case, you know, you, you 1108 00:56:31,457 --> 00:56:34,697 make steel backup and you put it in a home safe, and then you think, well, 1109 00:56:35,207 --> 00:56:38,027 you know, what if I went away for the weekend and somebody swapped the safe? 1110 00:56:38,117 --> 00:56:38,177 Yeah. 1111 00:56:38,507 --> 00:56:42,707 For one that looks the same and I don't notice for a while, and then I find 1112 00:56:42,707 --> 00:56:45,287 I don't know the code and I'm pretty sure I haven't forgotten the code. 1113 00:56:45,287 --> 00:56:46,997 And then I realize they've swapped the, 1114 00:56:47,237 --> 00:56:48,977 or they just open the safe and look at 1115 00:56:48,977 --> 00:56:51,797 the words like, yeah, well, I mean, like, let's assuming they cut. 1116 00:56:51,857 --> 00:56:55,157 I mean, I think typically consumer safes are actually not that good. 1117 00:56:55,157 --> 00:56:59,177 So a, a skilled safe bracket can open them anyway, like bypass it. 1118 00:56:59,507 --> 00:57:02,087 But even if you assume it's good quality and they can't bypass it, 1119 00:57:02,087 --> 00:57:04,907 it could, you just take it and swap it and maybe you don't notice. 1120 00:57:04,912 --> 00:57:05,177 Right? 1121 00:57:05,177 --> 00:57:11,957 So if you start thinking about some of those things, then it's, uh, you 1122 00:57:11,957 --> 00:57:14,662 know, The physical backup can be taken. 1123 00:57:14,872 --> 00:57:15,862 That's the problem, right? 1124 00:57:15,867 --> 00:57:15,912 Mm-hmm. 1125 00:57:15,997 --> 00:57:17,182 So what would you do about that? 1126 00:57:17,242 --> 00:57:19,372 Well, you need to be able to cancel it, and then you need 1127 00:57:19,372 --> 00:57:20,512 this kind of digital vault. 1128 00:57:20,542 --> 00:57:24,112 And then if you have that extra technology, you would have an answer. 1129 00:57:24,142 --> 00:57:26,352 You know, obviously got security cameras everywhere and you, 1130 00:57:26,542 --> 00:57:27,832 and you see that it happened. 1131 00:57:28,672 --> 00:57:32,182 Now if it, if it was today, it is too late, you saw them get stolen. 1132 00:57:32,182 --> 00:57:32,662 So what? 1133 00:57:32,662 --> 00:57:34,612 They've cleared on a chain and they're gone, right? 1134 00:57:34,612 --> 00:57:34,672 Yeah. 1135 00:57:34,852 --> 00:57:35,812 And you can't undo them. 1136 00:57:35,812 --> 00:57:39,022 But if you have a, a vol process, yeah, you can undo it. 1137 00:57:39,022 --> 00:57:41,362 You have a week to like take it back. 1138 00:57:41,362 --> 00:57:41,662 Right? 1139 00:57:42,592 --> 00:57:45,892 So, but, but like, I mean, steel plates and all whatnot are. 1140 00:57:47,272 --> 00:57:50,452 The, the, there's sort of the normies now, but, but really what? 1141 00:57:51,262 --> 00:57:54,862 It's just your imagination that, that counts when come, when it 1142 00:57:54,862 --> 00:57:56,422 comes to, uh, storing Bitcoin. 1143 00:57:56,427 --> 00:58:01,582 I mean, a private key is a, a, a set of characters and, uh, a 1144 00:58:01,582 --> 00:58:03,022 seed phrase is a couple of words. 1145 00:58:03,022 --> 00:58:08,092 So say you hide the, in a poem, uh, and you store that poem in three different 1146 00:58:08,092 --> 00:58:12,142 locations, in three different countries, and nobody even knows that it is a seed 1147 00:58:12,142 --> 00:58:13,672 phrase, and it's impossible to tell. 1148 00:58:13,672 --> 00:58:16,852 I mean, there it is literally just your imagination, setting these 1149 00:58:16,852 --> 00:58:18,352 boundaries for what's possible. 1150 00:58:18,352 --> 00:58:23,242 And yeah, I think we, the, the bitcoin space is sort of like, 1151 00:58:23,332 --> 00:58:24,592 okay, this is the normies. 1152 00:58:24,592 --> 00:58:29,212 Now we're, we're doing steel plates and we're, where it's blatantly obvious that 1153 00:58:29,212 --> 00:58:32,902 the Bitcoin are there because it's a steel plate with seed, seed phrase on it. 1154 00:58:32,902 --> 00:58:33,322 So like, right. 1155 00:58:33,322 --> 00:58:33,482 Yeah. 1156 00:58:33,622 --> 00:58:34,702 It's not hidden at all. 1157 00:58:34,702 --> 00:58:36,682 It's like, it's like a gold bar, 1158 00:58:37,192 --> 00:58:37,552 right? 1159 00:58:37,557 --> 00:58:37,562 Yeah. 1160 00:58:37,642 --> 00:58:38,162 I mean, it is. 1161 00:58:38,162 --> 00:58:38,322 Yeah. 1162 00:58:39,022 --> 00:58:40,702 So, uh, so how do you see that? 1163 00:58:40,852 --> 00:58:47,422 Do you see like, uh, Other developments in the, like Bitcoin storage space? 1164 00:58:47,422 --> 00:58:50,302 Like are people using their imaginations enough? 1165 00:58:51,352 --> 00:58:55,252 Yeah, I mean, I think it's, um, I mean, certainly people have tried lots of 1166 00:58:55,257 --> 00:58:59,422 different strategies including, you know, having a password and memorizing 1167 00:58:59,422 --> 00:59:03,202 it or splitting things up and storing 'em in different locations or trying 1168 00:59:03,202 --> 00:59:04,792 to hide things very effectively. 1169 00:59:05,392 --> 00:59:11,242 Um, and I guess there's always a trade off between, you know, hiding it too well. 1170 00:59:11,452 --> 00:59:11,542 Mm-hmm. 1171 00:59:11,782 --> 00:59:13,672 So that, you know, if you have an accident, then people 1172 00:59:13,677 --> 00:59:15,142 can't find them or something. 1173 00:59:15,202 --> 00:59:15,292 Mm-hmm. 1174 00:59:15,562 --> 00:59:18,922 And that's probably happened a couple times and like in the last few years 1175 00:59:18,922 --> 00:59:22,132 to people who unfortunately had an accident and people couldn't figure out 1176 00:59:22,132 --> 00:59:26,182 like the backup strategy or, I think the other thing that could happen is 1177 00:59:26,182 --> 00:59:28,312 people can get like very creative. 1178 00:59:29,272 --> 00:59:33,802 And make some kind of complicated trail to solve for themselves and then forget 1179 00:59:34,432 --> 00:59:36,112 parts of it 'cause they didn't try it. 1180 00:59:36,142 --> 00:59:40,012 So I think it turns out that people's memory is a little bit 1181 00:59:40,012 --> 00:59:43,552 fallible if they don't frequently exercise it for a few years. 1182 00:59:44,062 --> 00:59:45,562 So I think that's, that's a trade off. 1183 00:59:45,562 --> 00:59:45,802 Right? 1184 00:59:45,952 --> 00:59:49,072 And, and I think for companies like somebody doing like a custodial 1185 00:59:49,072 --> 00:59:52,822 service, it's a little bit more complicated because they have to, 1186 00:59:53,872 --> 00:59:56,242 uh, manage the change of stuff. 1187 00:59:56,332 --> 00:59:59,812 So somebody leaves for another job and you need the security to remain. 1188 01:00:00,142 --> 01:00:03,232 So you can't, you can't like place, you have to make it somehow physical 1189 01:00:03,237 --> 01:00:07,552 so that, you know, not control that you can like, have somebody leave as 1190 01:00:07,552 --> 01:00:11,152 a documented standard and that person doesn't take part of the secret with 1191 01:00:11,152 --> 01:00:12,322 them sort of thing or something. 1192 01:00:12,322 --> 01:00:12,592 Right? 1193 01:00:12,892 --> 01:00:13,132 Mm-hmm. 1194 01:00:16,612 --> 01:00:17,332 Well, I think the only 1195 01:00:17,332 --> 01:00:21,652 other thing I've kind of got on my mind is, is with some talks about threats 1196 01:00:21,657 --> 01:00:24,142 and, and, uh, things that could go wrong. 1197 01:00:24,712 --> 01:00:26,272 Uh, what are you seeing. 1198 01:00:26,737 --> 01:00:29,647 Positively about how Bitcoin is doing in the world. 1199 01:00:29,647 --> 01:00:34,987 Is it, is it, is it doing the thing that you thought when you first heard about it? 1200 01:00:35,047 --> 01:00:35,827 Does that make sense? 1201 01:00:35,887 --> 01:00:36,307 Yeah. 1202 01:00:36,307 --> 01:00:40,957 Has your, how much has your view changed over the years of what this thing 1203 01:00:40,957 --> 01:00:41,347 is? 1204 01:00:41,827 --> 01:00:46,147 I mean, um, my view is, is is basically the same sense, like, I don't know, 1995 1205 01:00:46,147 --> 01:00:47,887 or something with electronic cash, right? 1206 01:00:47,887 --> 01:00:52,747 So, you know, David Chaum had developed this kind of cryptography for electronic 1207 01:00:52,752 --> 01:00:55,297 cash in 1985 in his PhD thesis. 1208 01:00:55,867 --> 01:00:58,897 And he's still around in the crypto space, but a older guy now, right. 1209 01:00:59,077 --> 01:01:00,397 He's a very clever cryptographer. 1210 01:01:00,397 --> 01:01:04,327 But I think in the mid nineties, there was a startup in the Netherlands that 1211 01:01:04,327 --> 01:01:09,247 David Schumer started to, you know, commercialize and make available 1212 01:01:09,307 --> 01:01:11,197 electronic cash using this technology. 1213 01:01:11,197 --> 01:01:14,617 And effectively in today's terminology, you would call it like a stable coin. 1214 01:01:14,707 --> 01:01:18,667 'cause that was like, you know, not dollar denominated, but euro or something, right? 1215 01:01:18,667 --> 01:01:18,757 Mm-hmm. 1216 01:01:18,897 --> 01:01:24,817 And, um, But yeah, so I think the thing that like, at least the Cipher punks 1217 01:01:24,817 --> 01:01:30,847 thought was exciting about that kind of technology was the bearer finality of it. 1218 01:01:30,847 --> 01:01:30,937 Mm-hmm. 1219 01:01:31,177 --> 01:01:31,567 Right? 1220 01:01:31,567 --> 01:01:34,417 That it's, you know, it's digital, but it's physical too. 1221 01:01:34,422 --> 01:01:37,537 Like, I, I own it and own it, I own it and nobody can take it off me. 1222 01:01:37,957 --> 01:01:40,627 Nobody can sense to me, nobody can prevent me transacting. 1223 01:01:41,047 --> 01:01:44,707 Uh, maybe nobody can even kind of detect of who paid who 'cause it, 'cause 1224 01:01:44,707 --> 01:01:46,327 that technology was extremely private. 1225 01:01:46,327 --> 01:01:46,567 Right. 1226 01:01:46,567 --> 01:01:50,197 And so to, to those people, that was extremely exciting. 1227 01:01:50,197 --> 01:01:55,507 And then the concept of smart contracts involving bearer finality 1228 01:01:55,507 --> 01:02:01,477 was extra interesting because it meant that a contract was final. 1229 01:02:01,987 --> 01:02:04,927 You know, if, if there's a, if there's a smart contract that says, 1230 01:02:04,927 --> 01:02:06,547 you know, you get paid when this. 1231 01:02:07,087 --> 01:02:11,677 Event happens, or when this task is completed and it's ver like it's machine 1232 01:02:11,677 --> 01:02:17,467 verifiable, then the fact that the payment is ve final means the contract's final. 1233 01:02:17,497 --> 01:02:19,237 So you can't, you know, you can't dispute it. 1234 01:02:19,242 --> 01:02:19,337 Mm-hmm. 1235 01:02:19,422 --> 01:02:27,367 So it's sort of extremely efficient, low cost, sort of, um, centralized reputation 1236 01:02:27,367 --> 01:02:32,017 based commerce on the internet, kind of in a, you know, in a gray market, fully 1237 01:02:32,017 --> 01:02:33,637 permissionless and global and anonymous. 1238 01:02:33,642 --> 01:02:33,967 Right. 1239 01:02:33,967 --> 01:02:37,837 So we thought that was really interesting for, we like the 1240 01:02:37,867 --> 01:02:39,217 people on the cyberpunks list. 1241 01:02:39,247 --> 01:02:39,997 Really interesting. 1242 01:02:39,997 --> 01:02:42,457 And like Bitcoin realized it. 1243 01:02:42,487 --> 01:02:42,847 Right. 1244 01:02:42,847 --> 01:02:45,397 So, you know, here we are and it's, it's working. 1245 01:02:45,427 --> 01:02:47,827 I mean, it's not quite as private as that tech was. 1246 01:02:48,847 --> 01:02:54,217 It's, um, that was, that had a, a side effect of being centralized and mm-hmm. 1247 01:02:54,397 --> 01:02:57,187 Vulnerable to that company shutting down, and then the central database 1248 01:02:57,187 --> 01:02:58,777 was lost and it was all gone. 1249 01:02:58,777 --> 01:02:59,107 Right. 1250 01:02:59,107 --> 01:03:06,187 So, yeah, I mean, I think the reaction to digit cash winding down and 1251 01:03:06,187 --> 01:03:10,537 seeing that fail if you held some of the coins was, wow, that central 1252 01:03:10,537 --> 01:03:11,677 point of failure is really bad. 1253 01:03:11,677 --> 01:03:12,967 It needs to be decentralized. 1254 01:03:12,967 --> 01:03:13,767 Like, how would you do that? 1255 01:03:13,767 --> 01:03:14,167 Mm-hmm. 1256 01:03:14,257 --> 01:03:18,637 And then, you know, there's all the discussions in the, I guess late 1257 01:03:18,642 --> 01:03:22,237 nineties, early two thousands about, you know, how, how could you possibly 1258 01:03:22,237 --> 01:03:24,277 build a decentralized electronic cash? 1259 01:03:24,277 --> 01:03:27,847 And I'm like, there were, there were things that sound like vaguely similar 1260 01:03:27,847 --> 01:03:31,927 to Bitcoin, like about mining and proof of work and smart contracts 1261 01:03:31,927 --> 01:03:35,257 and, you know, bynine in general's problem, all these discussions, but 1262 01:03:35,257 --> 01:03:36,307 nobody figured out how to do it. 1263 01:03:36,427 --> 01:03:37,747 And so Bitcoin. 1264 01:03:39,352 --> 01:03:40,672 Really, uh, made it happen. 1265 01:03:40,672 --> 01:03:41,872 So, yeah, I think it's great. 1266 01:03:41,932 --> 01:03:47,032 Like, you know, and like, I think that it, uh, changes people's viewpoint who 1267 01:03:47,032 --> 01:03:54,622 come in like, you know, the attraction of the kind of pure mathematical elegance of 1268 01:03:54,622 --> 01:03:59,632 having piece of digital property that's yours and can't be taken from you, can't 1269 01:03:59,632 --> 01:04:03,922 be eroded, can't be seized, can't be, you know, frozen, canceled or undone. 1270 01:04:04,672 --> 01:04:06,982 It's like super cool, right? 1271 01:04:07,282 --> 01:04:08,122 People get their head around now. 1272 01:04:08,127 --> 01:04:09,532 Of course we wouldn't be here if it wasn't. 1273 01:04:09,537 --> 01:04:10,192 That's amazing. 1274 01:04:10,192 --> 01:04:10,552 Right? 1275 01:04:10,882 --> 01:04:12,892 And so people are just like, it's quite interesting. 1276 01:04:12,892 --> 01:04:16,282 I went to PNI PS Oh yeah. 1277 01:04:16,672 --> 01:04:21,592 You know, in Prague and, um, They have a coffee shop in 1278 01:04:21,592 --> 01:04:23,782 the, uh, in the grand floor. 1279 01:04:24,022 --> 01:04:24,352 Yeah. 1280 01:04:24,412 --> 01:04:25,702 And you have to buy with Bitcoin. 1281 01:04:25,912 --> 01:04:29,482 And so, you know, we were talking to some people after the event, they 1282 01:04:29,482 --> 01:04:31,012 organized and they were like, yeah. 1283 01:04:31,012 --> 01:04:33,232 Their first interaction with Bitcoin was they came into the 1284 01:04:33,237 --> 01:04:35,632 coffee shop to buy a coffee and they knew nothing about Bitcoin. 1285 01:04:35,632 --> 01:04:39,442 They wanted a coffee rate, but after they learned about it, they got like 1286 01:04:39,442 --> 01:04:40,942 very philosophically interested. 1287 01:04:41,272 --> 01:04:45,412 So it, so basically it doesn't matter what angle you came from it, like whether 1288 01:04:45,412 --> 01:04:49,882 it's a friend or as an investment or it was a, you know, casual payment. 1289 01:04:50,482 --> 01:04:55,222 Like just how it works is super interesting and like, you know, the 1290 01:04:55,227 --> 01:05:00,232 wine virus that keeps everybody super enthusiastic for years and years. 1291 01:05:00,262 --> 01:05:00,652 Yeah. 1292 01:05:00,652 --> 01:05:00,892 Yeah. 1293 01:05:00,892 --> 01:05:01,642 Tell me about it. 1294 01:05:03,772 --> 01:05:03,982 Yeah. 1295 01:05:04,012 --> 01:05:05,452 Uh, yeah. 1296 01:05:05,452 --> 01:05:05,722 So. 1297 01:05:07,102 --> 01:05:07,642 What was that? 1298 01:05:07,642 --> 01:05:09,262 I, I just had something on my tongue. 1299 01:05:09,292 --> 01:05:09,772 Yeah, yeah. 1300 01:05:10,072 --> 01:05:11,182 About ownership. 1301 01:05:11,602 --> 01:05:17,752 I mean, since, since we've established that owning Bitcoin is nothing but keeping 1302 01:05:17,752 --> 01:05:21,532 a secret, how do you prove ownership? 1303 01:05:21,532 --> 01:05:24,532 Like in, in a ethical sense? 1304 01:05:24,532 --> 01:05:28,162 I mean, of course the legal systems are flawed and whatnot, and they can 1305 01:05:28,162 --> 01:05:32,572 prove all, quote unquote, prove all sorts of things that aren't necessarily 1306 01:05:32,572 --> 01:05:34,312 true, but like from a strict. 1307 01:05:36,052 --> 01:05:40,072 You know, information technology perspective, how do you really 1308 01:05:40,072 --> 01:05:42,622 prove that someone owns a Bitcoin? 1309 01:05:42,622 --> 01:05:46,102 Since it's just information in someone's head at the end of the day? 1310 01:05:46,732 --> 01:05:47,962 Is it, is it even possible? 1311 01:05:48,022 --> 01:05:48,382 Well, 1312 01:05:48,382 --> 01:05:54,412 I mean, I suppose the close analog is if, if they're willingly proving they could 1313 01:05:54,412 --> 01:05:56,782 sign a message or spend to themselves. 1314 01:05:56,782 --> 01:05:56,842 Yeah. 1315 01:05:56,842 --> 01:05:58,672 And that would be pretty convincing, right? 1316 01:05:58,972 --> 01:05:59,212 Yeah. 1317 01:05:59,212 --> 01:05:59,542 I can 1318 01:05:59,542 --> 01:06:03,922 think of a case where that would've been, uh, the right thing to do 1319 01:06:03,922 --> 01:06:07,492 to prove you're a certain person, but, but it never happened. 1320 01:06:07,822 --> 01:06:14,212 Uh, but, but still, if they refuse to and, and just use the boating 1321 01:06:14,212 --> 01:06:15,862 accident excuse or whatnot, like 1322 01:06:15,862 --> 01:06:16,402 how, yeah. 1323 01:06:16,462 --> 01:06:18,832 I mean, there's nothing you can do to prove it, right? 1324 01:06:18,832 --> 01:06:26,782 I mean, it, it even happens in some unrelated to Bitcoin court cases where I. 1325 01:06:27,442 --> 01:06:29,362 People have encrypted hard drives. 1326 01:06:29,662 --> 01:06:30,082 Yeah. 1327 01:06:30,172 --> 01:06:35,032 And you know, there's some investigation, uh, their equipment 1328 01:06:35,032 --> 01:06:40,012 is seized and the court demands that they decrypted data and they refuse. 1329 01:06:40,522 --> 01:06:40,792 Yeah. 1330 01:06:40,882 --> 01:06:44,512 And like basically after some kind of prescribed legal limit, they have to 1331 01:06:44,512 --> 01:06:51,262 let 'em go because no decryption, no evidence, presumption of innocence and 1332 01:06:51,262 --> 01:06:55,042 like some kind of prescribed legal limit on holding people for contempt of court. 1333 01:06:55,582 --> 01:06:57,112 If they refuse, you have to let 'em go. 1334 01:06:57,112 --> 01:06:57,412 Right. 1335 01:06:57,412 --> 01:07:00,322 So I think that's, that's kind of a precedent, right? 1336 01:07:00,322 --> 01:07:03,742 If you, if you can't prove it, like what are you gonna do? 1337 01:07:03,742 --> 01:07:04,102 Right? 1338 01:07:04,792 --> 01:07:05,212 Yeah. 1339 01:07:05,362 --> 01:07:10,162 And even like if I, if I do an non-chain transaction to obviously 1340 01:07:10,162 --> 01:07:13,282 buy a cup of coffee and there's a note in it saying, well, you bought a 1341 01:07:13,282 --> 01:07:14,782 cup of coffee and you bought it here. 1342 01:07:14,782 --> 01:07:20,332 And at this point, like still to me, even that is impossible to actually 1343 01:07:20,337 --> 01:07:23,002 prove that, that I made that transaction. 1344 01:07:23,092 --> 01:07:25,432 It could have been anyone else keeping the same secret. 1345 01:07:25,702 --> 01:07:26,062 Right. 1346 01:07:26,062 --> 01:07:26,152 Right. 1347 01:07:26,152 --> 01:07:26,422 Yeah. 1348 01:07:27,292 --> 01:07:27,892 Yeah, it's true. 1349 01:07:27,892 --> 01:07:27,952 Yeah. 1350 01:07:28,882 --> 01:07:29,362 Yeah. 1351 01:07:29,482 --> 01:07:35,212 So, well, I think it's important to keep identity out of the blockchain. 1352 01:07:35,632 --> 01:07:35,872 Yeah. 1353 01:07:35,962 --> 01:07:41,782 And you know, some people got excited about, uh, digital IDs and like having 1354 01:07:43,582 --> 01:07:50,332 kind of KY c certificates on chain and Ethereum even got on the train. 1355 01:07:50,332 --> 01:07:50,962 What was this? 1356 01:07:50,962 --> 01:07:53,392 The, uh, soul bound tokens. 1357 01:07:53,692 --> 01:07:53,782 Mm-hmm. 1358 01:07:54,022 --> 01:07:58,042 Another word for a digital certificate basically make a lot of sense to me. 1359 01:07:58,042 --> 01:08:01,012 But I think you wanna keep that stuff as far away from the blockchain as 1360 01:08:01,012 --> 01:08:05,812 possible because banks particularly, you know, the technologists that come 1361 01:08:05,812 --> 01:08:11,722 from the banking world, they're used to the concept that the, um, you know, 1362 01:08:11,722 --> 01:08:13,312 people could lose their online login. 1363 01:08:13,612 --> 01:08:17,902 And so as long as they have, you know, their passport and utility bill, that 1364 01:08:17,907 --> 01:08:20,332 individual is the owner of the asset. 1365 01:08:20,422 --> 01:08:24,532 Uh, so they, they kind of just gravitate by. 1366 01:08:25,252 --> 01:08:30,652 Instinct and momentum to wanting to like put identity stuff a blockchain and make 1367 01:08:30,652 --> 01:08:32,182 it a condition of the spending, right? 1368 01:08:32,182 --> 01:08:35,422 It's like, well, the guy with this passport or the guy with this fingerprint 1369 01:08:35,422 --> 01:08:37,132 or something, I'm like, no, no. 1370 01:08:37,132 --> 01:08:39,532 Like it should be, it's bearer. 1371 01:08:39,592 --> 01:08:40,702 It's a bearer asset. 1372 01:08:40,702 --> 01:08:45,052 Like it's, it's a bad idea to put identity anywhere near the blockchain. 1373 01:08:45,052 --> 01:08:48,412 And I like, so I don't even like people making decentralized. 1374 01:08:48,412 --> 01:08:51,712 Itd 'cause if they're in a blockchain, then sooner or later somebody's 1375 01:08:51,712 --> 01:08:53,272 gonna use it as a spending condition. 1376 01:08:53,277 --> 01:08:55,762 So like, keep it away from the blockchain if you ask me. 1377 01:08:56,242 --> 01:09:00,352 So in the same vein, like, uh, do you think we'll see cbdc 1378 01:09:00,832 --> 01:09:02,752 playing out, like as a real thing? 1379 01:09:02,752 --> 01:09:06,322 I mean, are are they already, like, what are we living in 1380 01:09:06,322 --> 01:09:07,372 and what are we looking forward 1381 01:09:07,372 --> 01:09:07,492 to? 1382 01:09:07,492 --> 01:09:10,432 I mean, that is, um, dystopian dark stuff, isn't it? 1383 01:09:10,642 --> 01:09:11,392 It seems like the. 1384 01:09:12,922 --> 01:09:18,892 The sort of Europeans and the American, like central bankers are getting FOMO 1385 01:09:18,892 --> 01:09:22,822 for, you know, the dystopian Chinese Yeah. 1386 01:09:22,852 --> 01:09:24,772 Kind of social credit score. 1387 01:09:24,772 --> 01:09:30,322 Freeze your money like, you know, uh, disfavor you financially if you 1388 01:09:30,352 --> 01:09:32,992 don't like conform kind of thinking. 1389 01:09:33,652 --> 01:09:43,462 And you know, I think they kind of want the, um, microeconomic control, right. 1390 01:09:43,462 --> 01:09:47,782 So, you know, they printed so much money and it kinda lost control of inflation. 1391 01:09:47,787 --> 01:09:51,442 And, and you like the levers they have to influence inflation 1392 01:09:51,442 --> 01:09:52,552 are super indirect, right? 1393 01:09:52,557 --> 01:09:52,612 Yeah. 1394 01:09:52,617 --> 01:09:55,342 So they, they put money into the system and it just flows into 1395 01:09:55,342 --> 01:09:56,782 banks that lend less or something. 1396 01:09:56,962 --> 01:09:57,142 Yeah. 1397 01:09:57,202 --> 01:10:00,232 And say, you know, if they could reach into your pocket and say, well you've 1398 01:10:00,232 --> 01:10:03,772 gotta spend this money in a week, or we're gonna take it back, you know, or you're 1399 01:10:03,772 --> 01:10:04,762 only allowed to spend it in this way. 1400 01:10:04,767 --> 01:10:05,512 They would love that. 1401 01:10:05,542 --> 01:10:10,252 'cause it'd be kind of like microeconomic control, but it's like extremely dark, uh. 1402 01:10:10,822 --> 01:10:11,632 Kind of concept. 1403 01:10:11,632 --> 01:10:16,342 So I'm just hopeful that democracies will just like say no. 1404 01:10:17,152 --> 01:10:17,242 Yeah. 1405 01:10:17,242 --> 01:10:19,582 The term programmable money is wrong. 1406 01:10:19,587 --> 01:10:23,242 Like pro programmable money is the same thing as programmable people. 1407 01:10:23,962 --> 01:10:25,192 That's what it is, right? 1408 01:10:25,312 --> 01:10:26,512 Because people use money. 1409 01:10:26,572 --> 01:10:28,102 Like it's just us. 1410 01:10:28,162 --> 01:10:31,522 At the end of the day, it's Bitcoin going to help 1411 01:10:31,522 --> 01:10:32,182 us avoid 1412 01:10:32,182 --> 01:10:32,422 that. 1413 01:10:33,712 --> 01:10:34,102 Yeah. 1414 01:10:34,107 --> 01:10:38,962 Well, I mean, I think there are some countries which have tried to phase out 1415 01:10:38,962 --> 01:10:43,132 cash, like to go cashless or even some European countries that have placed 1416 01:10:43,132 --> 01:10:44,902 legal limits on cash transactions. 1417 01:10:45,022 --> 01:10:45,112 Mm-hmm. 1418 01:10:45,352 --> 01:10:48,142 Or taken like 500 euro notes out of circulation. 1419 01:10:48,262 --> 01:10:50,632 And other countries that are still heavily cashed, like 1420 01:10:50,632 --> 01:10:51,892 Maltra is very heavily cashed. 1421 01:10:51,892 --> 01:10:54,472 Switzerland is very heavy cash, but Switzerland has like a 1422 01:10:54,472 --> 01:10:57,262 thousand frank note, which is worth like double that or something. 1423 01:10:57,742 --> 01:11:01,672 And they use it, you know, like Switzerland has, I think so many 1424 01:11:01,672 --> 01:11:05,182 thousand frank notes that there is like about six or 7,000. 1425 01:11:06,472 --> 01:11:10,162 Frank's worth a thousand frank notes or like six or seven notes per man, 1426 01:11:10,162 --> 01:11:11,392 woman, and child in the whole country. 1427 01:11:11,392 --> 01:11:14,662 So just imagine the amount of like high denomination currency 1428 01:11:14,667 --> 01:11:17,152 they have, uh, floating around nice companies and individuals. 1429 01:11:17,152 --> 01:11:18,952 It's very cash like Outlook. 1430 01:11:19,642 --> 01:11:26,332 Um, but yeah, so if they try to outlaw cash, like by policy and regulations, 1431 01:11:26,332 --> 01:11:28,492 then Bitcoin is a natural outlet, right? 1432 01:11:28,492 --> 01:11:28,612 Mm-hmm. 1433 01:11:28,852 --> 01:11:31,762 Well, we have global bearer bitcoin, electronic cash. 1434 01:11:31,762 --> 01:11:33,232 So what do we care? 1435 01:11:33,262 --> 01:11:39,202 I mean, we still care that you don't like make, uh, money a dystopian, 1436 01:11:39,207 --> 01:11:43,912 like fear money, a dystopian control point, but we have a, an outlet, 1437 01:11:43,912 --> 01:11:47,602 a safety valve, which is we can use the bearer Bitcoin and there's 1438 01:11:47,902 --> 01:11:49,402 basically nothing they can do about it. 1439 01:11:50,152 --> 01:11:50,392 Yeah. 1440 01:11:50,602 --> 01:11:56,242 Like the, um, banning of cash in, in Sweden or like going cashless was at 1441 01:11:56,247 --> 01:11:59,213 least played a part in why I made the decision to leave and like mm-hmm. 1442 01:11:59,302 --> 01:12:03,142 The, the cash is much, much more common in Spain and then, Yeah. 1443 01:12:03,142 --> 01:12:04,042 In, in, yeah. 1444 01:12:04,042 --> 01:12:04,792 The Mediterranean 1445 01:12:04,792 --> 01:12:05,482 countries in general. 1446 01:12:05,482 --> 01:12:05,632 Yeah. 1447 01:12:05,632 --> 01:12:09,562 I mean, I was always, uh, thinking like even before like Bitcoin 1448 01:12:09,562 --> 01:12:12,022 existed that you should really, I. 1449 01:12:12,262 --> 01:12:17,632 Use cash, even if it's inconvenient on principle, any way you can, 1450 01:12:18,292 --> 01:12:21,952 just so that, you know, governments don't get the idea that, well, 1451 01:12:21,952 --> 01:12:23,782 everybody's using debit cards anyway. 1452 01:12:23,782 --> 01:12:24,922 We could probably phase it out. 1453 01:12:24,922 --> 01:12:25,132 Right? 1454 01:12:25,132 --> 01:12:30,112 So if, you know, if I use cash for like hotel, for taxi, for train, for anything, 1455 01:12:30,202 --> 01:12:35,122 um, for a lot of people do that, it becomes difficult for them to, uh, change. 1456 01:12:35,692 --> 01:12:39,022 Uh, another thing about Sweden that I brought up with all the other 1457 01:12:39,022 --> 01:12:44,302 guests this, uh, this weekend is, is that I, I, uh, talked to Christiana, 1458 01:12:44,302 --> 01:12:47,782 the, the C E O of B T C X, if you're familiar with that exchange. 1459 01:12:47,782 --> 01:12:50,872 It's the oldest Swedish exchange and one of the oldest in the world. 1460 01:12:51,232 --> 01:12:57,832 Uh, so, uh, uh, overall, the, um, over the years they've had over 300,000 customers 1461 01:12:58,642 --> 01:13:00,652 and there's another big exchange as well. 1462 01:13:00,652 --> 01:13:03,742 And of course there's some overlap and, but then there's also like people 1463 01:13:03,742 --> 01:13:08,182 buying from international exchanges and getting their Bitcoin some other way. 1464 01:13:08,632 --> 01:13:15,917 So if you assume that, Uh, half a million Swedes have Bitcoin or 1465 01:13:15,917 --> 01:13:17,417 have access to Bitcoin somehow. 1466 01:13:17,717 --> 01:13:18,527 That's, it's quite a lot. 1467 01:13:18,527 --> 01:13:18,737 Right. 1468 01:13:19,032 --> 01:13:21,077 That's quite, that's 5% of the population. 1469 01:13:21,082 --> 01:13:22,697 It's 10 million people in the country. 1470 01:13:22,702 --> 01:13:22,757 Yeah. 1471 01:13:23,027 --> 01:13:28,217 So, so when I think about that, it's like, okay, so 5% of the population 1472 01:13:28,217 --> 01:13:33,407 have the, uh, ability to pay other people in Bitcoin right now. 1473 01:13:34,007 --> 01:13:39,077 And the entire population has the ability to receive them because, right. 1474 01:13:39,107 --> 01:13:39,437 Yeah. 1475 01:13:39,557 --> 01:13:40,517 Within the minutes. 1476 01:13:40,967 --> 01:13:41,207 Yeah. 1477 01:13:41,207 --> 01:13:47,867 So, uh, to me, the conclusion I draw is like, this economy is already here, 1478 01:13:47,897 --> 01:13:53,677 it's just below the surface, and it's just, If shit hits, hits the fan even 1479 01:13:53,677 --> 01:13:57,877 harder than it has, like, then it's just bound to pop out and just happen. 1480 01:13:57,877 --> 01:13:58,537 Like, yeah. 1481 01:13:58,567 --> 01:13:59,167 How do you see that? 1482 01:13:59,347 --> 01:14:01,987 Is there are, are we close to the boiling points 1483 01:14:01,987 --> 01:14:07,777 or like Yeah, I mean, I was, I was describing it as, um, a bootstrap 1484 01:14:07,777 --> 01:14:14,017 threshold where even like where there's enough people that own Bitcoin, that 1485 01:14:14,047 --> 01:14:20,437 even if all of the sort of k y c official businesses had to stop immediately mm-hmm. 1486 01:14:20,887 --> 01:14:24,997 That it would keep going with a gray market because, you know, it's 1487 01:14:24,997 --> 01:14:27,637 kinda like marijuana or something. 1488 01:14:27,697 --> 01:14:34,897 Now, you know, if, if, if enough people do that you can, you know, 1489 01:14:34,902 --> 01:14:37,627 ask a friend of a friend, like within a social network mm-hmm. 1490 01:14:37,867 --> 01:14:39,397 You can find somebody to trade Bitcoin. 1491 01:14:39,757 --> 01:14:40,027 Right. 1492 01:14:40,027 --> 01:14:40,087 Yeah. 1493 01:14:40,117 --> 01:14:42,127 So, and that's, that's clearly the case now. 1494 01:14:42,127 --> 01:14:42,367 Right. 1495 01:14:42,367 --> 01:14:42,607 You know? 1496 01:14:43,432 --> 01:14:46,252 You know, you are, you are in Bitcoin, but if you are not in Bitcoin, 1497 01:14:46,702 --> 01:14:49,432 you probably know who to ask for, who might know somebody who you 1498 01:14:49,432 --> 01:14:50,842 could trade some Bitcoin for cash. 1499 01:14:50,902 --> 01:14:51,322 Yeah. 1500 01:14:51,502 --> 01:14:53,482 It's the Kevin Bacon number equivalent. 1501 01:14:53,487 --> 01:14:53,722 Like, 1502 01:14:53,932 --> 01:14:56,782 so I think like clearly it's boost wrapped and like potentially 1503 01:14:56,782 --> 01:14:57,982 even internationally, right? 1504 01:14:57,987 --> 01:15:03,502 Because yeah, there are like unofficial international swap markets Yeah. 1505 01:15:03,502 --> 01:15:04,942 For delivering cash rate. 1506 01:15:05,542 --> 01:15:08,602 And that's the experience I have with traveling around to all these conferences 1507 01:15:08,602 --> 01:15:10,102 and meetups and stuff is like that. 1508 01:15:10,222 --> 01:15:11,962 It's, it's still small everywhere. 1509 01:15:12,382 --> 01:15:16,372 Then you have to take into account that not every Bitcoin wants to go to a 1510 01:15:16,372 --> 01:15:18,322 Bitcoin meetup or a Bitcoin conference. 1511 01:15:18,327 --> 01:15:20,722 It's just a small portion of us that do these things. 1512 01:15:20,722 --> 01:15:20,812 Right. 1513 01:15:21,262 --> 01:15:27,052 So, and, but even those things are, they're small, but they're everywhere. 1514 01:15:27,052 --> 01:15:28,072 Literally everywhere. 1515 01:15:28,612 --> 01:15:29,542 So, yeah. 1516 01:15:29,932 --> 01:15:30,742 Insanely bullish. 1517 01:15:31,402 --> 01:15:31,702 Yeah. 1518 01:15:32,902 --> 01:15:38,812 Well, I mean, I think the, the million, uh, U T x like full corner situation is 1519 01:15:38,817 --> 01:15:43,432 like insanely bullish because you're think like, well, could we get to 10 million? 1520 01:15:43,462 --> 01:15:46,042 It's probably not like economically possible. 1521 01:15:46,102 --> 01:15:46,402 No. 1522 01:15:46,432 --> 01:15:47,662 Like, could we get to 2 million? 1523 01:15:47,752 --> 01:15:48,412 I don't know. 1524 01:15:48,412 --> 01:15:50,602 Like the price might get pretty high before that could happen. 1525 01:15:50,602 --> 01:15:50,842 Right? 1526 01:15:50,842 --> 01:15:50,902 Yeah. 1527 01:15:50,932 --> 01:15:55,642 So like, it seems like we're not that much more adoption without 1528 01:15:55,647 --> 01:16:00,292 any like institutional buying or us spot ETFs or anything for just, 1529 01:16:00,742 --> 01:16:03,322 you know, things to get crazy. 1530 01:16:03,322 --> 01:16:03,592 Right. 1531 01:16:03,622 --> 01:16:03,982 Weird. 1532 01:16:03,982 --> 01:16:04,272 Yeah. 1533 01:16:04,277 --> 01:16:08,842 Yeah, because it's not, it's not that you double amount, the doub, the amount 1534 01:16:08,842 --> 01:16:11,362 of whole corners and price doubles. 1535 01:16:11,902 --> 01:16:12,112 Yeah. 1536 01:16:12,112 --> 01:16:12,202 It's 1537 01:16:12,202 --> 01:16:13,162 exponential, right? 1538 01:16:13,162 --> 01:16:13,252 Yeah. 1539 01:16:13,252 --> 01:16:13,912 It's much worse. 1540 01:16:13,912 --> 01:16:14,242 Yeah. 1541 01:16:14,332 --> 01:16:17,947 And, and it's getting worse over time because, The, um, 1542 01:16:17,977 --> 01:16:19,237 by worse, you mean better? 1543 01:16:19,447 --> 01:16:20,007 Yeah, yeah, better. 1544 01:16:20,007 --> 01:16:24,007 Like, like, I mean the, the uh, the liquidity, like the number of coins 1545 01:16:24,007 --> 01:16:27,037 that are available to get bought on exchange are like shrinking and 1546 01:16:27,042 --> 01:16:27,877 shrinking and shrinking, right? 1547 01:16:27,882 --> 01:16:28,087 Yeah. 1548 01:16:28,092 --> 01:16:28,127 Yeah. 1549 01:16:28,132 --> 01:16:32,347 So, you know, that means, you know, 'cause there's some kind of metric people 1550 01:16:32,347 --> 01:16:37,087 try to put like, well, you know, if a hundred million dollars of Bitcoin are 1551 01:16:37,087 --> 01:16:39,787 bought, how much does it put the price up? 1552 01:16:40,237 --> 01:16:44,647 And like, it's gonna put the price up a lot more if there are very few coins Yes. 1553 01:16:44,647 --> 01:16:45,547 Left on exchanges. 1554 01:16:45,547 --> 01:16:45,787 Right. 1555 01:17:46,299 --> 01:17:50,139 I, I think this has been a great talk, great discussion. 1556 01:17:50,139 --> 01:17:54,669 Talked about some, uh, kind of downsides, you know, things that 1557 01:17:54,669 --> 01:17:58,179 are risky going on right now, but also incredibly bullish at the end. 1558 01:17:58,179 --> 01:18:02,679 So, uh, is there anything else on your, your mind in the Bitcoin space these days? 1559 01:18:03,609 --> 01:18:07,029 Um, well, I mean, we're like a blockstream, we're interested 1560 01:18:07,029 --> 01:18:12,354 in like, Anything that, uh, has potential to improve Bitcoin. 1561 01:18:12,354 --> 01:18:15,354 So we're kind of got our fingers in lots of stuff, you know, like layer 1562 01:18:15,354 --> 01:18:22,614 two and manufacturing miners, but also simplicity, which is a kind of, sort of 1563 01:18:22,614 --> 01:18:27,774 long-term ossification technology, if you like it start the kind of technology 1564 01:18:27,779 --> 01:18:32,394 arc started in like before blockstream in like 2012 i r c discussions. 1565 01:18:32,934 --> 01:18:41,514 And so that, that is a sort of low level micro code self extensibility for Bitcoin. 1566 01:18:42,114 --> 01:18:47,604 And the idea is because of the formal semantics and formal proofs 1567 01:18:47,604 --> 01:18:51,774 that it could be a more secure, dependable kind of script than 1568 01:18:51,774 --> 01:18:53,124 the current Bitcoin script even. 1569 01:18:53,424 --> 01:18:53,904 And. 1570 01:18:54,204 --> 01:18:57,564 It's not fable by, you know, I think something like that is like, you know, 1571 01:18:57,564 --> 01:18:59,154 probably five years out at least. 1572 01:18:59,844 --> 01:19:05,994 But it is interesting to consider that there is, you know, a very credible, 1573 01:19:06,504 --> 01:19:11,634 serious engineering effort that could, you know, as a strong contender to get us to 1574 01:19:12,354 --> 01:19:14,244 ossification and, and like mean it, right? 1575 01:19:14,244 --> 01:19:15,204 Like the last soft fork. 1576 01:19:15,204 --> 01:19:19,284 We don't need to do like the kind of soft forks we do today after that. 1577 01:19:19,374 --> 01:19:25,344 Um, that's, that's like to me an extra bit of comfort because I feel that, 1578 01:19:26,154 --> 01:19:31,764 you know, the drip drip of ongoing soft forks is like a little bit of persistent 1579 01:19:31,764 --> 01:19:36,954 risk that mm-hmm would sooner like, you know, find a way to either modularize 1580 01:19:36,954 --> 01:19:42,594 like, so people can do things in like safe, you know, safe contained areas or. 1581 01:19:43,389 --> 01:19:44,679 Finalized bitcoin script. 1582 01:19:44,679 --> 01:19:47,289 So like it does what it does and you don't need to change it anymore. 1583 01:19:47,349 --> 01:19:48,489 And simplicity could do that. 1584 01:19:48,939 --> 01:19:53,229 Is it, is it inevitable to that you, uh, change the incentive structure 1585 01:19:53,229 --> 01:19:55,239 somewhat when introducing any soft 1586 01:19:55,239 --> 01:19:55,659 fork? 1587 01:19:55,719 --> 01:19:58,029 Like Yeah, I think so slightly. 1588 01:19:58,119 --> 01:20:03,279 You know, because I mean, even the fact that it, you know, like the, any previous 1589 01:20:03,279 --> 01:20:05,439 sound enables more efficient lightning. 1590 01:20:05,559 --> 01:20:06,099 Okay. 1591 01:20:06,099 --> 01:20:10,239 So maybe lightning uses less block space per mm-hmm. 1592 01:20:10,839 --> 01:20:13,719 Transaction or change changes, like I said, they, they're all gonna 1593 01:20:13,719 --> 01:20:14,949 change something a little bit. 1594 01:20:14,949 --> 01:20:18,969 Like maybe vaults change to cause storage behavior or maybe probably like 1595 01:20:18,969 --> 01:20:21,259 sell small things of course, but yeah. 1596 01:20:22,299 --> 01:20:22,599 Yeah. 1597 01:20:22,659 --> 01:20:23,319 Always a risk. 1598 01:20:23,859 --> 01:20:28,599 Adam, thank you so much for coming on and, uh, have a good, whatever 1599 01:20:28,604 --> 01:20:29,919 the rest of the conference is. 1600 01:20:30,369 --> 01:20:30,519 Yeah. 1601 01:20:30,519 --> 01:20:30,969 Thank you. 1602 01:20:30,999 --> 01:20:31,659 Thanks for having me on. 1603 01:20:32,636 --> 01:20:34,836 So what did you think of that episode with Adam Back? 1604 01:20:35,386 --> 01:20:36,686 We really enjoyed this one. 1605 01:20:36,746 --> 01:20:40,466 Adam clearly understands everything he's talking about, even if he's not Satoshi. 1606 01:20:41,066 --> 01:20:43,076 Can't blame us for thinking he's a likely candidate. 1607 01:20:43,576 --> 01:20:45,776 Anyway, let us know what you thought about this episode. 1608 01:20:45,796 --> 01:20:48,886 You can send us a boostergram on Fountain, leave us a comment on YouTube, 1609 01:20:48,926 --> 01:20:50,516 or get in touch on Noster or Twitter. 1610 01:20:51,016 --> 01:20:53,166 If you're watching on YouTube, don't forget to like the episode 1611 01:20:53,166 --> 01:20:54,256 and subscribe to the channel. 1612 01:20:54,806 --> 01:20:58,096 Our show's sponsors are Wasabi Wallet, Orange Pill App, The 1613 01:20:58,096 --> 01:21:00,806 Bitcoin Way, Zelox, and BitcoinBook. 1614 01:21:00,826 --> 01:21:01,226 shop. 1615 01:21:01,646 --> 01:21:03,246 Check out their details in the description. 1616 01:21:04,011 --> 01:21:07,981 That's all for now, see you next time, and thanks for listening.